Edit... I forgot I wasn't at HTF!

:D :D

Blogging doesn't make you a journalist because you get to hide behind the protection of 'editorial comments' without being held accountable for libel or slander because you are not under the requirement of presenting facts, a blog is an opinion after all. Not any better that someone writing in a myspace about how much someone sucks. Journalists present articles in print or other mediums which are held up against journalistic integrity and are accountable to represent the truth of the situation otherwise they can be put up against legal risks.

This is from Wiki, but it's a summary of multiple organizations codes of ethics for journalistic integrity:
Wiki: Journalism and Ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards)

First of all, wikipedia is a dubious source.
Secondly, by your defintion of journalism above, I 100% stand behind everything I wrote in the blog just as I always have in my editorial pieces for Video Business, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter and DVD Exclusive, which is nothing like a random opinion expressed on MySpace saying someone sucks. This blog can be held up against the legal test you noted.

Considering that the subject interviewed in the blog has no trouble with its content, how responsible is it of you to talk about libel and slander?

There were direct and indirect quotes from Kornblau in the blog, so it hardly qualifies as someone writing in myspace about how much "someone sucks."

Again -- my hero!

ClearVision,

most clear-thinking members here can handle the not-too-complex notion that you can both favor BD and still maintain *reasonable* objectivity in your journalism. No informed person can be "100% objective" because all informed people have opinions, just like you and anyone else here.

Your interview was a good one. It showed Universal's point clearly, challenged a few, but left many on the table as uncontestedly valid. Seems reasonable to me.

Assuming that the e-mail was sent from him and not from an assistant as a standard follow up to the interview, there's nothing he could do at that point and any attempt to attack the person could result in worst action the otherway. Next article...sorry, blog, might be along the lines of "Kornbleau's secret is out and not he's trying to hide it!" I'm not going to represent either the writer, nor the subject in my opinions, what I wrote was in response to the article...dammit, blog posting only and the claims made by the writer that professes that he's a journalist who doesn't follow the journalistic code of ethics and uses the medium, a blog, to protect his actions.

I have a feeling that you are one of those people who is incapable of ever conceding any point in any argument and would not be satisfied even if Craig Kornblau himself resigned his position so he had no agenda and then stood in front of you and told you he had no problem with the blog. You would still shake your head and say you didn't believe him.

ClearVision,

most clear-thinking members here can handle the not-too-complex notion that you can both favor BD and still maintain *reasonable* objectivity in your journalism. No informed person can be "100% objective" because all informed people have opinions, just like you and anyone else here.

Your interview was a good one. It showed Universal's point clearly, challenged a few, but left many on the table as uncontestedly valid. Seems reasonable to me.

Thank you DaVID. Good and reassuring to know.

First of all, wikipedia is a dubious source.
Secondly, by your defintion of journalism above, I 100% stand behind everything I wrote in the blog just as I always have in my editorial pieces for Video Business, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter and DVD Exclusive, which is nothing like a random opinion expressed on MySpace saying someone sucks. This blog can be held up against the legal test you noted.
Wikipedia is using organizations like the CBC and BBC who publicise their Codes of Conduct. Even if you disagree with the source, do you not agree with the principals? Should a journalist not make a clear distinction between what is news and what is opinion? Should they not make a clear distinction between news and advertisements? Should they not avoid conflicts of interest which may cause the news to be misrepresented? Or are you just going to fall back and say 'I don't have to worry about that, because I'm posting my opinions only'. It's not a question if you believe it or not, it's if we can believe you or not. If you're not holding your self up to the level of integrity as any other reporter than how can we trust you to present fair and unbiased opinions? How would this be any better than if the White House were to pay reporters or editors to say everything is fine or to recite whatever the White House wants?

I have a feeling that you are one of those people who is incapable of ever conceding any point in any argument and would not be satisfied even if Craig Kornblau himself resigned his position so he had no agenda and then stood in front of you and told you he had no problem with the blog. You would still shake your head and say you didn't believe him.
I'll concede points, I just don't trust someone who admits to being paid by Blu-ray companies to present an accurate portrayal of any situation because they're no longer objective to the situation.

There's an old quote from Marshall McLuhan, "The Medium is the Message". In this case, the medium is a Pro-Blu-ray site supported by Blu-ray companies written in an opinion based blog by a writer who is being paid to write for the site, that say volumes about what the content will be.

Wow, I was tired this morning. Taking a quick break from work but I don't think I have enough time to get caught up! :)

Following our discussion yesterday I decided that I would apologize for the disparaging remarks I made in my initial post to this thread. As you know, I didn't realize that this quote was from a 'blog' and that it had your slant.

People who visit blogs should be educated enough to know that much of it is opinion with some facts.

Maybe one day you can post something you author which presents a more favorable 'opinion' of the HD DVD format and why it may be the more worthy choice for some.

In the meantime, I want to say that I think that your patience and constructive dialogue here is one which many here should aspire to. Although, seeing that this piece contains opinions that HD DVD supporters will not appreciate, the backlash comes as no surprise. After all, it was posted in the HD DVD forum.

All to often I find myself disappointed with those charged with disseminating information about this war as they present to much opinion and not enough fact. I suppose, as with everything, it's something we have to live with. But that does not mean those who do so should not be challenged - whether sourced from a blog, a newspaper, or otherwise.

You asked me earlier whether perhaps even my take on the format was was impartial. I suppose we all are, to some degree. However, I am not responsible for maintaining independence as I am not a journalist nor is my commentary delivered in a manner that might be thought of by a reader as one that should be. One of the social ills today is that to many people rely on journalists not unlike yourself and Bill H to present the facts rather than their opinion. I suppose, if we all had the time, energy and inclination, we'd seek the truth ( or maybe our own truth ;) ). But in a less than perfect world, people read things and form their opinions based on that of the author.

Funny article...makes me want to buy more HD DVDs, actually.

His facts aren't even accurate...as Blades of Glory is coming to both formats.

As mentioned, extremely biased reporting...obvious PR.

His facts aren't even accurate...as Blades of Glory is coming to both formats.

As mentioned, extremely biased reporting...obvious PR.

I didn't even realize that. Who knows, maybe it was a mistake. Shouldn't have happened, but it did. Oh well.

Even still, he has acknowledged that this is something that contains his opinions and 'slant'. In other words, it is not something we should read expecting facts only - even if there are errors.

His opinions favor BR. Ours favor HD DVD.

Wikipedia is using organizations like the CBC and BBC who publicise their Codes of Conduct. Even if you disagree with the source, do you not agree with the principals? Should a journalist not make a clear distinction between what is news and what is opinion? Should they not avoid conflicts of interest which may cause the news to be misrepresented? It's not a question if you believe it or not, it's if we can believe you or not. If you're not holding your self up to the level of integrity as any other reporter than how can we trust you to present fair and unbiased opinions?

Right, to your point, regardless of the veracity of Wikipedia, I do believe there should be a distinction between a news story and an opinion piece. A blog is by definition not a news story -- it is thoughts and opinions expressed by the writer. Doesn't mean there can't be good and factual information, but it is not a news story. We have other places on the site where we present news stories, just as there are sections in every newspaper for stories and other sections for opinions.
I'm not a politician -- I don't have to hold myself up above even the appearance of a conflict of interest. I know I am writing independently of the wishes of the people who pay me just as reviewers and reporters for Entertainment Weekly know they are writing without editorial influence by Time Warner, who pays them to write articles and reviews that mostly help promote Warner movies and TV shows, and just as CNBC reporters know that they are reporting independently of Universal/GE, which pay them and hope that they say nice things when they do stories on Universal and GE, and just as Wall Street Journal reporters will soon hopefully be writing independent of any influence by Rupert Murdoch and his News Corp/Fox global media ownership.

You're right -- it's a question of whether you, the reader, believe me and all these reporters or not. We can only prove that by our writing and our track record. I firmly stand by all that I have already written. If you still feel there is no credibility, that is your choice. But I am indeed holding myself up to the level of other journalists as I have been one for 20 years and, as I stated earlier, have been interviewed by dozens of other journalists and credible journalistic organizations, from Lesley Stahl at "60 Minutes" to CNN and Fox News to The Wall Street Journal and New York Times -- and I have seen them work in exactly this way that I have always worked.

I'll concede points, I just don't trust someone who admits to being paid by Blu-ray companies to present an accurate portrayal of any situation because they're no longer objective to the situation.

There's an old quote from Marshall McLuhan, "The Medium is the Message". In this case, the medium is a Pro-Blu-ray site supported by Blu-ray companies written in an opinion based blog by a writer who is being paid to write for the site, that say volumes about what the content will be.

I guess you won't be reading the Wall Street Journal since those reporters will soon be paid by Fox and News Corp. I guess you don't trust CNBC since those reporters are paid by Universal/GE. I guess you don't trust Entertainment Weekly since they are paid by Time Warner. I guess you don't trust ABC reporters since they are paid by Disney. At least I get paid not by any one single entity but by multiple entities, so I don't have to worry about an appearance of favoring any one entity like all those other reporters.

Wow, I was tired this morning. Taking a quick break from work but I don't think I have enough time to get caught up! :)

Following our discussion yesterday I decided that I would apologize for the disparaging remarks I made in my initial post to this thread. As you know, I didn't realize that this quote was from a 'blog' and that it had your slant.

People who visit blogs should be educated enough to know that much of it is opinion with some facts.



You are a big person and I greatly appreciate your kind and articulate words. No apology needed but accepted graciously. I will take your counsel and wishes seriously.

His facts aren't even accurate...as Blades of Glory is coming to both formats.

As mentioned, extremely biased reporting...obvious PR.

In the words of Bruce Willis/John McLane: "Welcome to the party, Pal."

Yep, mistake that was caught and corrected more than 24 hours ago and which I owned up to immediately and which has been mentioned several times on this thread. One factual error in a 1,700-word piece that was easily and quickly corrected. Shows you guys are only reading posts here and not checking the actual source before you unleash your diatribes. Too bad.

I guess you won't be reading the Wall Street Journal since those reporters will soon be paid by Fox and News Corp. I guess you don't trust CNBC since those reporters are paid by Universal/GE. I guess you don't trust Entertainment Weekly since they are paid by Time Warner. I guess you don't trust ABC reporters since they are paid by Disney. At least I get paid not by any one single entity but by multiple entities, so I don't have to worry about an appearance of favoring any one entity like all those other reporters.
As most people should, I read multiple publications to try to get a clearer understanding of the news and to eliminate biases. And trust me, when NBC interviewed Jack Trenton of Sony about the PS3 price cuts, there was discussion about how the interview could have been pressured from MS given the relationship to MSNBC.

You are a big person and I greatly appreciate your kind and articulate words. No apology needed but accepted graciously. I will take your counsel and wishes seriously.

Those words were deserved.

I have to tell you that although I don't share your opinions (or care for BR/Sony and their actions), your diction is fairly impressive. Although I suppose this should be expected from someone who has, as you said, been in the field for 20 years. But in this forum, it is rather refreshing.

Despite being on opposite sides of the fence, I can say without hesitation, that your responses were very civil. Your approach and careful parsing make me wonder if you've read Gerry Spence's book How to Argue & Win Every Time: At Home, At Work, In Court, Everywhere, Everyday. :)

Now if you could only put those skills to use while embracing HD DVD!

I'd really like to know why in every interview Kornblau pimps "Interactivity" of HD DVD when less than 10% of Universal titles have lossless audio - which I think is more important to HD enthusiasts.

It's you opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.
I have a 61" HDTV, and a great stereo system. But I am in it for the video, way more than the audio. And to me, standard 5.1 DD from HD-DVD already sounds 100% better than anything I have heard on a standard DVD.

What does lossless audio have to do with interactivity? His entire point in mentioning interactivity was to explain that they're NOT focusing on the HT enthusiast. He said he believes that in order for HD media to catch on like DVD did, it needs to offer something that DVD can't, and that would be in the way of special features. He believes that if they just throw a movie in hi-def on a disc and sell it, it won't appeal to anyone else BUT the HT enthusiast, and that strategy alone isn't one that will allow HD media to take over for SD DVD, especially when J6P can pick up an upconverting DVD player for $99 and be perfectly satisfied with how it looks on his HDTV.


Agreed.
The reason HD movies were developed in the first place, is because DVD's are starting to lose steam. Not that they are failing, but just losing their steam. DVD was huge, back when you still had to look forward to your favorite movie coming out on DVD. Now that there are over 90,000 titles out there, DVD has been trying to regain steam, by double, triple, and quadruple dipping. HD was developed as a new way to convince the average consumer that DVD just isn't good enough anymore. They are using HD to get us to quadruple dip again. And Kornblau is at least smart enough to know that they have to do more than just make it look good, to get us to buy into it. Not that is company is doing very good at it, but at least he know's the strategy that is needed.

I'd really like to know why in every interview Kornblau pimps "Interactivity" of HD DVD when less than 10% of Universal titles have lossless audio - which I think is more important to HD enthusiasts.

Because the lossless track is specific to a given disc, while the interactivity features are part of the format spec. They can re-release a movie next year with lossless audio, but if the player won't play the interactive features, there's nothing you can do to fix that later (unless it's achievable with firmware upgrades).

I agree that the audio tracks are a big part of what makes HT worth doing, and they are more important to me than the special features. However, I am not average; I'd bet that far more people will pay for special features and extras than would pay extra for TrueHD over DD or dts 5.1. Average Joe doesn't understand the difference between DD 5.1 and TrueHD, but he certainly understands having menu selections for outtakes, blooper reels, 'making of' and interactivity.

The article is not slanted towards Blu ray, reality is. Make all the excuses you want, it's over if Universal goes neutral. Which is inevitable.
Here it is again... if only Universal were neutral then millions of people would rush to the store and start shelling out $500 for a new piece of equipment that is incrementally better than the one they have. I'm still not buying it.

The Blu-ray value pitch to the consumer is the same value pitch as SACD - "It has higher quality than the old format! Not really any cool new features you care about - but did I mention it's better?" - How did that work out for SACD?

I'm not looking to win any support from you or change your mind; just engaging in a dialogue.

You wouldn't be in here exhaustively trying to defend your point of view if you weren't trying to change people's minds or win support. When you post your opinion in a public article there are going to be people who disagree with you and pick apart what you say. Deal with it. Don't parade in here on the defense under the guise of "engaging in a dialogue". It's also pretty obvious you're looking for a pat on the back as you personally thank everyone who applauds you. If you truly believed in the validity and integrity of your blog you'd let it stand on its own. You wouldn't need to defend it and keep reaffirming your slant, all the while trying to downplay the notion that your blog is worthless and misleading for anyone but those who share the same opinion.

The fact that you're being paid for your pro-Blu opinion by Blu-ray backers on a Blu-ray centric site established by said Blu-ray backers raises all kinds of red flags for anyone with an ounce of common sesne. End of discussion.

I haven't "declared a winner." I am saying that at this point, given the facts, I am predicting Blu-ray will win.A couple of questions for you:

You've said that Blu-ray will win, but which side do you think should win, with respect to consumer interest? Given that whichever side eventually wins, all studios will provide content for that medium, it's safe to ignore the issue of studio exclusive titles. The two formats are very close when it comes to actual quality of content. Do you really believe that the Blu-ray viewing experience justifies hardware costs that are double what HD DVD offers?

Do you own an HD DVD player and/or any HD DVD titles? If so, what has your experience been with them?

Scott

A couple of questions for you:

You've said that Blu-ray will win, but which side do you think should win, with respect to consumer interest? Given that whichever side eventually wins, all studios will provide content for that medium, it's safe to ignore the issue of studio exclusive titles. The two formats are very close when it comes to actual quality of content. Do you really believe that the Blu-ray viewing experience justifies hardware costs that are double what HD DVD offers?

Do you own an HD DVD player and/or any HD DVD titles? If so, what has your experience been with them?

Scott

Yes, I have HD DVDs and, to be honest, I'm not sophisticated enough to discern the small differences in techincal quality of image and sound. I think proponents of both sides generally agree there is little difference in that regard at the moment.
I've said here on this thread and elsewhere that HD DVD has clearly had the advantage in the first year in first-to-market, first to introduce advanced interactive and connectivity, and in pricing and marketing.
When I predict that Blu-ray will win, it's based on the 50 GB format, the promised features yet to come and the technology to allow far more features than HD DVD, and the ridiculous amount of additional studio and CE support companies backing Blu-ray.

In any case, DeathKnight makes it clear that he feels that he has presented the last word that needs to be said and that this should be the end of the discussion, that I should not hang around here answering your questions but rather allow people like DeathKnight to feel free to complain and make accusations without having to see my responses to any of that. So I will thank you for the helpful dialogue and bid you adieu...

You said BDA. BDA is an industry organization that has no affiliation with the HiHD site. The site and myself have been upfront ad nauseum on the site and in my blogs and in responses to postings that the site is indeed pro-Blu-ray and backed by Blu-ray studios and other Blu-ray companies supporting Blu-ray (not the BDA organization) and that because I have taken an editorial position that Blu-ray will win the format war, I am being paid by the Blu-ray companies backing the site to write blogs and do separate video interviews, event coverage and "Inside Track" Q&As on the site. Nothing new in any of that.
You and others are free to believe or not whether I can maintain editorial independence and a fair perspective, following in the footsteps of many journalists before me who write for magazines like Warner-owned Entertinment Weekly and review Warner movies, and report on CNBC about its owners Universal and GE, etc.

I have a question for you. Would you consider FOX news fair and ballanced with no political bent?

I have a question for you. Would you consider FOX news fair and ballanced with no political bent?

Not to get into politics but it is as fair and balanced as NPR, BBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC and CNN.

Yes, I have HD DVDs and, to be honest, I'm not sophisticated enough to discern the small differences in techincal quality of image and sound. I think proponents of both sides generally agree there is little difference in that regard at the moment.
I've said here on this thread and elsewhere that HD DVD has clearly had the advantage in the first year in first-to-market, first to introduce advanced interactive and connectivity, and in pricing and marketing.
When I predict that Blu-ray will win, it's based on the 50 GB format, the promised features yet to come and the technology to allow far more features than HD DVD, and the ridiculous amount of additional studio and CE support companies backing Blu-ray.

In any case, DeathKnight makes it clear that he feels that he has presented the last word that needs to be said and that this should be the end of the discussion, that I should not hang around here answering your questions but rather allow people like DeathKnight to feel free to complain and make accusations without having to see my responses to any of that. So I will thank you for the helpful dialogue and bid you adieu...Thanks for your response. It's too bad that you've accepted DeathKnight's proclamation that the discussion is over, as I would have liked you to clarify your response to my question.

Given that the movies on the two formats look and sound so similar, and that both studios and manufacturers will follow whichever format "wins". why is it in consumers' interest for Blu-ray to win considering that hardware costs are double that of HD DVD?

Again, my question isn't who will win, but who should win - for the general good.

If you do decide to take a peek back here, I'd really like to know your thoughts and reasoning.

Scott

Thanks for your response. It's too bad that you've accepted DeathKnight's proclamation that the discussion is over, as I would have liked you to clarify your response to my question.

Given that the movies on the two formats look and sound so similar, and that both studios and manufacturers will follow whichever format "wins". why is it in consumers' interest for Blu-ray to win considering that hardware costs are double that of HD DVD?

Again, my question isn't who will win, but who should win - for the general good.

If you do decide to take a peek back here, I'd really like to know your thoughts and reasoning.

Scott

One last response to finish out your politely asked question:

No, the mainstream won't pay twice as much for a similar product if both have comparable movies available, and they shouldn't. Hopefully they won't have to in the coming months.

Unfortunately, what "should" win is not relevant in the business world. That's not a pleasant reality for we consumers. Beta "should" have won. Laserdisc "should" have won. Intellivision "should" have won over Atari. Heck, I even thought CDi's "should" have won. Many people believe Macs "should" dominate over PCs.
What "will" win is the format and product that offers the most titles with the best price. Secondary to the average consumer is the product with the most value (features). Hopefully all those elements will apply to the product with the best quality as well, but that's not usually the top priority for mainstream consumers.
Right now neither Blu-ray nor HD DVD offer all these elements (Blu-ray has most titles and support; HD DVD has lowest price), which is why neither is registering a blip on mainstream consumer radar screens and which is why they could both be in trouble if they don't soon present a single, simple choice with all those elements to consumers who are already migrating to electronic downloads and other forms of movie delivery other than discs, some in high-def.

Again, adios...

What "will" win is the format and product that offers the most titles with the best price.

Correct, so the question is who will achieve both first.

HD DVD is closer to the right price, and Blu-ray is closer to having the most content.

So which will happen first; will Blu-ray hit the magic US$149 for players, or will HD DVD convince another major studio to become neutral.

That, my friends, will decide the format war absolutely.

Correct, so the question is who will achieve both first.

HD DVD is closer to the right price, and Blu-ray is closer to having the most content.

So which will happen first; will Blu-ray hit the magic US$149 for players, or will HD DVD convince another major studio to become neutral.

That, my friends, will decide the format war absolutely.
will Blu-ray hit the magic US$149 for players

Perhaps $149 is not the "magical" number? See linked article.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6467868.html

Partial Extract:

At Ultimate Electronics and Abt Electronics, Toshiba’s second-generation players are still the best-selling individual models, but collectively, Blu-ray players have been outselling HD DVD Toshiba models in recent weeks.

At Ultimate, the shift began in June when Sony rolled out Blu-ray’s cheapest set-top player to date, the $499 BDP-S300. Ultimate also carries second-generation Samsung and Pioneer Blu-ray models.

Here is a good response/commentary on this article at Hollywood In Hi-Def from Ultimate A/V (formerly known as Stereophile's Guide To Home Theater):

Two kinds of lies in the format war- lies and damn lies.

Posted Fri Aug 10, 2007, 8:19 PM ET — By Shane Buettner

Week in and week out the CE press is inundated with propaganda and counter-propaganda from both sides in the format war. Most of this stuff falls under the category of all being fair in love, war and marketing. But sometimes these things go a little too far.
Blu-ray has now got its own propaganda web site, and I wouldn't expect anything that appears on this site (or Toshiba's Look and Sound of Perfect website for that matter) to be remotely non-partisan. But this Blog recently posted at this site goes rather far beyond simple partisanship.

The call out at the top of this page screams "Universal's Kornblau Wants Format War To Continue." Wow. When he's not trying to screw consumers with a lousy format war, does he strangle kittens for fun too?

While there are several direct quotes in this article attributed to Universal's President regarding the format war, I did not read a single one that comes close to supporting the hyperbolic call out at the top of the page.

Kornblau is quoted as saying something that a number of non-partisan industry pundits have said many times, and is probably correct. That the format was has been good for consumers in the sense that prices have come down farther and faster than they would have otherwise. Which is not the same as being in favor of a format war for the sake of a format war.

I'll go farther than that- the format war has been good for quality. Take a look at the first batches of Blu-ray titles we saw last summer (Fifth Element was so bad Sony has fixed it for free!). It's entirely possible that we'd have been stuck with that kind of crap for a good while had HD DVD not set the bar higher in terms of picture and sound quality right out of the gate.

But where this Blog is far more disingenuous is in its discussion of interactivity. The Blog states that "with the notable exception of the "U-Control" interactive feature that Universal introduced on several titles last year, the studio hasn't exactly been blazing many trails of innovation with content that couldn't be delivered on Blu-ray Discs and even DVDs in many cases."

This is overtly dishonest on a number of levels. Not the least of which is a gross exaggeration of DVD's interactivity prowess. (C'mon man, you can't even view a chapter list on a DVD without stopping the movie!)

And while it's possible that PIP features like U-Control could be delivered on Blu-ray, and certainly will one day, the simple fact is that as of right now they aren't. And why is that, you ask? There isn't a single standalone Blu-ray Disc player on the market that can support even the simplest Picture-In Picture functionality, nor can they be updated because hardware is at issue. A secondary video decoder is required for PIP and not a single standalone Blu-ray player in the market is so equipped.

This is why Warner and others are putting PIP features similar to U-Control on their HD DVDs and not on their BDs. While it's possible, if not likely, that the PlayStation3 supports PIP features as it's already spec'd with a secondary video decoder, there is no guarantee. And certainly it's significant if, as is likely, the PS3 supports PIP as it is far and way the most prevalent HD player in the market for either format.

But that's still apparently not enough for the studios to start putting these features on their discs because they haven't done so thus far, even though Warner already has the material created and put to use on many of its HD DVD titles.

And Warner has good reason to be cautious. The attempts so far to push the BD-J interactivity envelope haven't been trouble free. Those ridiculous BD-Java games that are encoded on the Pirates of the Caribbean BDs throw current standalone players into fits. Don't believe me? Watch this video.

The video is obviously a worse case scenario, but in our own tests it's typical for standalone players to take two to three minutes just to boot to the menus on the Pirates discs, and if you actually engage the games it's common for them not to work and/or the player to lock up.

So, if you've invested in a more expensive standalone Blu-ray player, and Blu-ray Discs do come out with PIP features like U-Control, you're SOL. You'll allegedly be able to play the movie, but take a look at the YouTube video to see what kind of experience you might have while your player figures out how to navigate a disc with BD-J features your player doesn't support.

Blu-ray's inconvenient truth is this: standalone BD players introduced after October 31st of this year will be required to support Java profile 1.1, which supports PIP features. Players introduced before then do not. And guess what? Samsung (and probably other manufacturers) are popping out third-gen BD players for September and October that beat the deadline and thus will not offer support for PIP features.

As far as web connectivity goes, Hettrick says wait 'til BD Live comes along. I think we will be waiting- probably until at least the 4th-generation of BD players next year. Few Blu-ray standalone players even have Ethernet ports, but that's irrelevant anyway. BD Live requires the player to support Java Profile 2.0, which has different hardware requirements than previous Java implementations. Not a single Java Profile 2.0 Blu-ray player has been announced to date, and so far only Denon's BD players are announced as supporting Java 1.1.

Blu-ray has a great story to tell. But interactivity isn't part of that story yet, and Blu-ray honks just shouldn't go there in touting their format. And really, there are plenty of credible signs that Blu-ray is indeed winning the format war so far. So, why not show a little class and act like it?

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/shanebuettner/81007formatwar/


Well said, IMO.

Here is a good response/commentary on this article at Hollywood In Hi-Def from Ultimate A/V (formerly known as Stereophile's Guide To Home Theater):

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/shanebuettner/81007formatwar/


Well said, IMO.Yes, a quite good read. That guy made some very valid points that are rarely, if ever, mentioned in the press.

You've been kind of low-key since I tried to take you up on your offer to bet me on a future interview with Kornblau, Mr. DanMaster Jr.
Why are you making fun of my earned grade? I am in did a 5th Dan Master, while you are a BD spinner posing as a reporter. :p

Actually I became quiet because I forwarded some of your posts to him at Universal. Wait until he reads how you twisted his words in your BD's favor; It would be a miracle if you got another interview with him. :D

First of all, if Blu-Ray is running away with this format war as many would have us believe, why does it need to run a propaganda site such as this? As a matter of fact, why does Sony need to buy end-caps at Target, or seemingly cut deals with Blockbuster? Why do they need to drop $100 off the price of the PS3 to clear out stock, all the while boasting of its "brisk sales" across the globe? And why do we need a press release every other week explaining how the format war is over and Blu-Ray has won?

This editorial is exactly why Blu-Ray is NOT the format for the masses -- it is a format based on excessive greed, monopolistic corporations, boundless DRM (courtesy of root-kit fiasco leader, Sony), and strong-armed tactics. How anyone can actually believe we, as consumers, film lovers, & high-tech enthusiasts, should accept this format is preposterous! The very reason so many BD supporters claim we should embrace this technology (exclusive studio support) is the same reason that I feel we should NOT! If Blu-Ray was superior and deserving of our support on merit alone, then it would not need to play a ridiculous political game in this format war. Why would Sony need to overpay for a majority stake in MGM other than to have more films in its library to hold hostage in this battle? The worst thing to happen to the film industry was an electronics company being allowed to purchase an American film studio like Columbia / Tri-Star, because this is the BS that we end up dealing with.

The content issue has been rehashed ad nauseum. If HD-DVD sales continue to grow then other studios will ultimately follow. Money talks. The recent sales of "300" should have proven to studio heads that HD-DVD is a viable format that is growing. Selling nearly 100K units in its first week of sales is certainly impressive for a format with only about half-a-million players in the wild. What kind of #'s will we see when Toshiba hits its mark of a million players by year's end? Or when prices continue to drop below $200 during the holidays?

The format war has been advantageous for the consumers, allowing prices to drop much quicker than usual. Most enthusiasts who were patiently waiting for HD optical media have already bought at least one format. I don't believe the uncertainty in the marketplace is responsible for apathy towards these formats -- I simply believe most folks are satisfied with DVD quality for now. As HD becomes more widespread and understood, these formats will gain support and grow. But a videogame console is not going to determine the success of a format.

This website, much like Sony's fictional movie reviewer David Manning and their bogus PSP blog, just shows the underhanded, deceptive tactics that have become far too prevelant from the BDA. I'm up to 193 HD-DVD's right now, and BS like this just makes me buy more. :)

One last response to finish out your politely asked question:

No, the mainstream won't pay twice as much for a similar product if both have comparable movies available, and they shouldn't. Hopefully they won't have to in the coming months.

Unfortunately, what "should" win is not relevant in the business world. That's not a pleasant reality for we consumers. Beta "should" have won. Laserdisc "should" have won. Intellivision "should" have won over Atari. Heck, I even thought CDi's "should" have won. Many people believe Macs "should" dominate over PCs.
What "will" win is the format and product that offers the most titles with the best price. Secondary to the average consumer is the product with the most value (features). Hopefully all those elements will apply to the product with the best quality as well, but that's not usually the top priority for mainstream consumers.
Right now neither Blu-ray nor HD DVD offer all these elements (Blu-ray has most titles and support; HD DVD has lowest price), which is why neither is registering a blip on mainstream consumer radar screens and which is why they could both be in trouble if they don't soon present a single, simple choice with all those elements to consumers who are already migrating to electronic downloads and other forms of movie delivery other than discs, some in high-def.

Again, adios...I think what you've written here clarifies your position, although I still can't really tell which format you would personally prefer to win.

But, certainly you can see how HD DVD backers feel very strongly that HD DVD offers all of the consumer-critical elements now - pricing advantage, extra features that actually function as planned today. There may be a slight advantage to Blu-ray in the specific content that is available, but that's not a result of the format itself, just a temporary consequence of the war. So you've chosen to fight (perhaps too strong a word) for the side that you feel is likely win, but those posting against you here are fighting for the side they feel should win.

Blu-ray may be able to offer comparable activity on new models sometime in the future, and prices will continue to fall, but again, HD DVD offers those features today, and nothing will push down prices and increase features more than the competition we're seeing.

When this war first started, I was firmly convinced that a single format would be in the best interest of consumers, even though I didn't have a preference for either. But now I think the war has been the best thing that can happen for consumers, just for the competition element alone. It's fine with me if both survive. But if there does end up being a single winner, you can bet it will be a better offering than we would have seen if the war had never happened.

Scott

Why are you making fun of my earned grade? I am in did a 5th Dan Master, while you are a BD spinner posing as a reporter. :p

Actually I became quiet because I forwarded some of your posts to him at Universal. Wait until he reads how you twisted his words in your BD's favor; It would be a miracle if you got another interview with him. :D

What has this discussion with ClearVision have to do with the HD DVD/BD issue?

well know history of Sony's unsuccessful formats and their track record of screwing customers over.


Talking about track records ...
Did you know that Toshiba supported Betamax? I know because I owned a Toshiba V9600 Betamax player. It broke down after a year and a half and boy did I feel screwed then.

Talking about track records ...
Did you know that Toshiba supported Betamax? I know because I owned a Toshiba V9600 Betamax player. It broke down after a year and a half and boy did I feel screwed then.

Yep, they did. That is what I find so funny about Toshiba going against Sony. We also had a Toshiba Betamax player. It cost almost a grand in 1980 or so from B & B Appliance in Cleveland, Ohio. That sucker played until Toshiba and Sony gave up the ghost to VHS in the late 80's so what is your point? And the first Beta movie we paid for was about $80.

Talking about track records ...
Did you know that Toshiba supported Betamax? I know because I owned a Toshiba V9600 Betamax player. It broke down after a year and a half and boy did I feel screwed then.

Ah that's true so let's add up the failed format totals:

Toshiba: Betamax

Sony: Betamax, UMD, Mini-Disk, Memory Stick, Digital-8, SACD, DAT, Elcaset and many more I simply can't remember right now.

Every company tries something different and fails from time to time, but Sony has made an art from out of it. Now some Sony fan-boy is going to come on and say,"what about walkman, what about CDs" and they are right to point out those successes. Still those are only a couple of ideas that worked out of dozens that failed; getting one round out of ten on target is nothing to brag about.

I went through 2 Sony DVD players and a PS2 during the first 2 years of DVD so I feel your pain on the V9600.

That sucker played until Toshiba and Sony gave up the ghost to VHS in the late 80's so what is your point?

I guess my experiences with Toshiba product in the past made me think twice about buying into HD-DVD when I looked at the HD formats. The problem with HD-DVD, at least for me, is that there is no choice in hardware manufacturers. There's only Toshiba. If Pioneer had supported HD-DVD and not BD, I probably would have a HD-DVD player now.

And the first Beta movie we paid for was about $80.

:D Tell me about it. I only owned 3 pre-recorded movies on Betamax because of the high prices. I switched to VHS before I could invest more.

Every company tries something different and fails from time to time, but Sony has made an art from out of it.

So what? That long list of Sony failures does not automatically mean that BD will fail. Besides, BD is not Sony alone. And I'm not a Sony fanboy. I have only owned one Sony product in my life, one of the first Walkmans. I actually still have it and it still plays, but boy is it heavy. I wouldn't take it out walking anymore.

5th dan master. which mac dojo did you receive your fifth degree?

actually any real 5th degree master wouldn't brag about his achievements on a website. and specially would not sink so low to mail forward stuff what is posted here.

i bet if your master would find out. he would run all over you with bamboo sticks!!! haha

wow this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9gQG4OFgrpA) is very telling even if it's a worse case scenario. Owners of BDA should be concerned if this turns out to be true once Profile 1.1 titles come out.

5th dan master. which mac dojo did you receive your fifth degree?

actually any real 5th degree master wouldn't brag about his achievements on a website. and specially would not sink so low to mail forward stuff what is posted here.

i bet if your master would find out. he would run all over you with bamboo sticks!!! haha

Actually, there is nothing that says that what he has done is out of line.

If I was Craig Kornblau. I would be grateful to learn that my words had been misrepresented and skewed against my own organization. It would allow him to take steps to correct the situation.

As far as Kornblau sending a thank you card. I would imagine what he sent was a note saying he had a nice time talking to him. I would be very curious to hear his actual take on the issue. After all, even other professional journalists have stated that what Scott did was way, way out of line in regards to an article.

wow this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9gQG4OFgrpA) is very telling even if it's a worse case scenario. Owners of BDA should be concerned if this turns out to be true once Profile 1.1 titles come out.
I think most of the playback problems the video producer had were probably due to playing a burned disc. Or maybe it was because his display was a Toshiba television. ;)

I think most of the playback problems the video producer had were probably due to playing a burned disc. Or maybe it was because his display was a Toshiba television. ;) :confused:
That's right, live in denial ;)
I've seen that actual player in BB's Magnolia section and I had a guy put in POTC:CBP and it actually took roughly 2 minutes (maybe a few seconds less) to load up to the main menu. So I know that loadup time to main menu is longer then normal. Anyone and I do mean anyone can visit their local BB and if they have a Magnolia section they could request to see how well the BDP-S1 works with POTC:CBP. Better yet, if there is no Magnolia section see if the BDP-S1 is on display and if it's hooked up ask them to play POTC:CBP and see for yourself how long it takes :rolleyes:

But some would ask, "what's so special about this movie?" Glad you asked, this movie utilizing BD-J or Blu-ray Disc Java. So, what is BD-j? Read here for more details (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J). In others words we are talking about the beginnings of what some consider profile 1.1 title on a non profile 1.1 player.

Not to get into politics but it is as fair and balanced as NPR, BBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC and CNN.

You never answered nice dodge. They are or they are not.

YEs or No

That's right, live in denial ;)
I've seen that actual player in BB's Magnolia section and I had a guy put in POTC:CBP and it actually took roughly 2 minutes (maybe a few seconds less) to load up to the main menu. So I know that loadup time to main menu is longer then normal. Anyone and I do mean anyone can visit their local BB and if they have a Magnolia section they could request to see how well the BDP-S1 works with POTC:CBP. Better yet, if there is no Magnolia section see if the BDP-S1 is on display and if it's hooked up ask them to play POTC:CBP and see for yourself how long it takes :rolleyes:

But some would ask, "what's so special about this movie?" Glad you asked, this movie utilizing BD-J or Blu-ray Disc Java. So, what is BD-j? Read here for more details (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J). In others words we are talking about the beginnings of what some consider profile 1.1 title on a non profile 1.1 player.
I'm not living in denial, I just don't care that much. I have an HD D2 and it has performed flawlessly for me. I support HD DVD and it is the only format I own but I am not a fanboy. When BD players come down below $300 I will buy one, by that time most of the kinks should be worked out.

Urza,

His point was that fox, just like the other stations. They are all biased. Fox just tends to lean another way!

... I just don't care that much...I will buy one...
The key phrases in your post defines it IMO.

This thread has shown me the light. The light being, of course, that blogs have made the already shakey online media somehow even MORE scummy by allowing people to justify editorializing within a factual article, by going "dude, its a blog, i can have my own opinion". That's all blogs are. They're an excuse to be a piss-poor journalist while having an "out" when people are irritated by what was posted. It doesn't take integrity to say "whatever dude, it's a blog and i can write what i want and if you dont like it, tough". No REAL journalist would say so anyway. So I guess at this point, bloggers shouldn't be called journalists. They're closer to columnists without the respect level. That means they're basically glorified forum posters.

Urza,

His point was that fox, just like the other stations. They are all biased. Fox just tends to lean another way!

So why then is it a leap of logic to assume he might be biased being attached to who he is attached to? It's clear how biased it is, and then he comes on here trying to play the "Non bias" part. He has not fooled anyone judging by the reaction, and he knows it.

Urza,

The reason that it is provoking such a response is that it is not obvious to most casual surfers that he is working for companies.

The phrase "built for blu ray. Powered by by Blu Ray Supporters" makes it sound like a fan site.

The other reason everyone is up in arms is that he was putting words in Kornblau's mouth.

Every other interview with people who support blu ray and are employed by studios affiliated to Sony's pet project are given a question answer format. It certainly was not a fair and unbiased article even if it was editorial. His site has been seen as a news site. Other places choose to quote his site and fiction gets quoted as fact. This is a disservice to everyone who is looking for information to make an informed choice. His article was not labeled editorial. It is pure tripe. Journalism that has no basis for existence other than to inflame people. That is how I see it. I also found it hilarious that Scott chose to fight the way his article was perceived here where as on other forums such as highdefdigest people were taking it as fact. AVS was the only forum to instantly question the basis of the article.

From Insider's Posts on blu-ray.com and comments made by Hettrick in the article, it is obvious that BD backers put pressure on Universal this summer and offered "generous incentives" (aka BRIBES) to at least go neutral. When Uni wouldn't play ball, Hettrick was paid to write this hack job "blog" to try to portray Universal / Kornblau in the worst possible light as retaliation. Pure & Simple.

While I own both formats, it's sleazy crap like this that makes me feel like putting my PS3 out on eBay.

By the site's own "About Us" disclaimer, Sony, Fox, Disney, Panasonic are the principals behind the site. From the eye-watering sad note in the blog about how the HiDef format was primarily created CE manufacturers "in order to restore the profit into their business that long ago evaporated with $49 DVD players from China. The format war has already forced some manufacturers to start subsidizing their hi-def players. " leaves me no doubt it was Sony who was primarily behind this hack job. I guess it's better than ordering a pair of cement shoes for Kornblau, but not by much IMHO. :mad:

From Insider's Posts on blu-ray.com and comments made by Hettrick in the article, it is obvious that BD backers put pressure on Universal this summer and offered "generous incentives" (aka BRIBES) to at least go neutral. When Uni wouldn't play ball, Hettrick was paid to write this hack job "blog" to try to portray Universal / Kornblau in the worst possible light as retaliation. Pure & Simple.

While I own both formats, it's sleazy crap like this that makes me feel like putting my PS3 out on eBay.

By the site's own "About Us" disclaimer, Sony, Fox, Disney, Panasonic are the principals behind the site. From the eye-watering sad note in the blog about how the HiDef format was primarily created CE manufacturers "in order to restore the profit into their business that long ago evaporated with $49 DVD players from China. The format war has already forced some manufacturers to start subsidizing their hi-def players. " leaves me no doubt it was Sony who was primarily behind this hack job. I guess it's better than ordering a pair of cement shoes for Kornblau, but not by much IMHO. :mad:
Good and honest post.

Thread rolled back to remove bickering, off-topic posts and trolling. Some legitimate posts may have been lost in the rollback.

My own prediction is that Uni, Disney and Fox go neutral on the same day....a joint announcement.

Obviously, if that were to happen would BD supporters who are critical of Universal being exclusive when all other studios back BD, also criticize Sony for being exclusive, while all other studios are neutral? I am guess not :)

My own gut feeling is that Uni and the HD DVD group is probably working on such a deal with Disney and Fox....a sort of win win face saving decision on all sides.

Me personally I STRONGLY believe all studios should be neutral and allow consumers to decide the winner.

Thread rolled back to remove bickering, off-topic posts and trolling. Some legitimate posts may have been lost in the rollback.
You have got to be kidding me. Did AVS receive a threatening note from HiHD's lawyers or something? Please restore my posts 1) describing HiHD's positioning before their backers were found out, and 2) asking Mr. Hettrick a bunch of direct questions.

I agree. This was a very comprehensive thread stuffed with info before someone decided to slash it to death. The censorship this time gave me a very bad taste in the mouth. ClearVision was given a lot of clear and objective questions from pteittinen whose answers would have shed a lot of light on the purpose of this thread and the reasoning behind the article in question. Pretty offensive tactic that totally disarms the balance that pteittinen & co was trying to achieve between relentless pr-spin and hard facts.

I'm pretty offended, and I'm just a lurker.

I had a long post written and then decided it was a bad idea.

Pteittinen: I found some of your post on Google cache but not enough to coherently clip and paste it back here. Shame really.

If you search around for this article, you'll find that other sites are running with this idea that the format war is all Universal's fault. AVS seems to be the only large site that had exposed some of the clear bias in this blog.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

There was no trolling. Everything that was talked about in this thread was on topic. What the hell is going on here.

It just feels like, valid questions were asked and this thread questioned how far the whole Blu-Ray lies and horrible payoffs go. And suddenly the thread is "CLEANED".

This is BS. It's absolutely amazing. Who decides what needs to be "rolled" back. If anything members of AVS should question this move. It does leave a bad taste in the mouth.

To be honest, I was thinking about paying the membership, but this move just shows me that it's maybe not such a smart idea.

You have got to be kidding me. Did AVS receive a threatening note from HiHD's lawyers or something? Please restore my posts 1) describing HiHD's positioning before their backers were found out, and 2) asking Mr. Hettrick a bunch of direct questions.

It's absolutely dissapointing that AVS would do this. It seems that all of your posts are deleted. Purely coincidence right? I don't think so.

Well you know, what can you expect when AVS allows Blu-Ray propaganda posts on the homepage like the Target announcement.

Your posts were direct and completely on topic debunking everything that was said and written by ClearVision aka Scott Hettrick.

I will again, express my disgust with this "roll back" whatever that means.

You came clean only when the site's financiers were found out. I ... soon after it was opened, and the site's description was very much different. ...by 20th Century Fox. Before that the site was portrayed as yet another home media news/reviews/previews site. Yet it was painfully obvious to pretty much anyone...why some folks started digging into your site. Scott, I've worked as a professional...




I guess you could try to repost this and fill in the blanks. Best I could do so far, can't find your post with the questions yet...

... short on quotes, and disproportinately long in editorial opinion masquerading as ... of the article to paint Universal in bad light, all the ... to get away scot free with an opinion piece masquerading as ... a fair representation of Mr. Kornblau's comments. Well, we have ... you first? 2) How long was the site under construction? How...hate politics, it provides me with a good analogy. Tony Snow...


One more to fill in the blanks...

:rolleyes:

I guess you could try to repost this and fill in the blanks.
You know... I don't think I can be bothered any longer. Big business and censorship won out, I guess. Unless DrDon restores my posts, I'm done with AVS for good.

Please don't leave. Seriously.

bluray fud wins again
*puke*

Dumb question. Has anyone called Kornblau to confirm?

You have got to be kidding me. Did AVS receive a threatening note from HiHD's lawyers or something? Please restore my posts 1) describing HiHD's positioning before their backers were found out, and 2) asking Mr. Hettrick a bunch of direct questions.

Scott Hettrick here. I will presume that you were the one with the laundry list of questions about my payment and relationship and future employment that I glanced at Sunday when I checked back in briefly? If not, I apologize.
If so, I felt like the questions were off-topic and more personal in nature so I didn't want to respond in deference to members here. (Also, I notice that if I don't respond, I'm criticized for hiding and ducking the tough questions, and if I do respond, I'm criticized for being defensive, overly-sensitive, for being controlling and manipulative as part of my dark scam, and for being in a Forum where I am not welcome and should never have come in the first place -- so there's really no winning, is there?).
But now that you once again immediately jump to the conspiratorial conclusion that anyone at HiHD had anything to do with the removal of comments and questions in this thread (funny how you can jump to unfounded conclusions but many here criticize me for doing just that), I will respond to the laundry list of questions and incorrect assumptions that I can remember you posed so you can rest easy (though I'm confident you will not believe a single word and find some way to combat, challenge and question the honesty, validity and credibility of each and every point -- again, pretty tough to make a valid argument or honest response when you're not open to believing anything):

* I'm not under contract with anyone.
* I'm not an employee of anyone.
* No one tells me what to write.
* No one approves what I write or questions I ask, though I sometimes seek input to make sure I'm covering all topics and not getting into legal issues.
* Site was under construction several months before launching last month.
* Like any new site, many revisions are made immediately upon launch. We said from Day One that the site was backed by Sony and Disney and other Blu-ray companies. We responded within 72 hours to those who said that our honesty about that was not prominent enough, so we immediately did every single thing that was requested we do to make it more prominent and clear and were thanked for those changes by everyone who had suggested them. Not something we would have done if we were trying to hide anything. (we even left every single criticism and subsequent comment on the site in blog comments so anyone can read for themselves what was said and how we responded, rather than just your selective and judgmental summary here, which you criticize me for doing).
* I don't get paid by any single company -- I get paid like most freelancers when I submit invoices for work I have done; paid by multiple companies supporting Blu-ray so I am not beholden to any one company and not obliged to say nice things about any one company. Kind of like saying you work for software and hardware companies supporting DVD -- it covers a large swath.
* The idea for the site evolved from the Blu-ray Today magazine I wrote and edited and put together at CES in January. Several of the Blu-ray software and hardware companies thought it would be beneficial to provide consumers with a site offering a full slate of Blu-ray news stories, reviews, executive and talent interviews, new release listings, etc., in a way that included credible writers and reporters who were not told what to write but whose writings favoring Blu-ray could be seen and showcased at a pro-Blu-ray site that was not such an in-your-face, rah-rah Blu-ray promotional site. They approached me about the concept and I said that as long as I was free to choose what I wanted to write, what questions I wanted to ask, and free to note things I felt were being done poorly by Blu-ray, and if there was no censorship or editing or approval required for my writings (which is actually even more freedom than I sometimes had at Video Business and Variety and Hollywood Reporter), I would do it.
It has worked out exactly that way -- I have pointed out on this thread many of the critcisims I have leveled against Blu-ray companies (most recently pointing out in my blog that Sony is charging $13 more for the Blu-ray version of "Spider-Man 3" than the DVD version despite having no additional Blu-ray exclusive features, to which I said, "Yikes!").
* No, I don't worry about my next job because of this gig -- but thank you for being so concerned about my professional welfare. This is not my only freelance and consulting gig but in fact this exposure has actually been beneficial. Had you ever heard of me before I started work on this site? See what I mean? So I do not worry about whether I will get any more work or another call from "60 Minutes" or "The Today Show."
* No, I do not worry about what any of this will mean regarding my standing in the blogger/Forum community. You guys will think what you want to think -- some of you will never consider a single point contrary to your own view -- and there's nothing I can do to change that. Some will make a considered judgment, and most will not give two seconds of thought about Scott Hettrick but instead focus on the matter at hand, which is the value propisition of hi-def discs in general and the plusses and minuses of HD DVD and Blu-ray, which is as it should be.

I believe you said you are a journalist?
Since I have been as completely transparent as I know how to be -- with my name and my job and my entire career laid out for you and everyone else to examine here, on our site at hollywoodinhidef.com and elsewhere online -- and since I have now answered questions well beyond what is required about my background, my monetary reimbursement structure, the origins of our site, etc., I'd love to see you display some of the same journalistic credibility and open the door into your credentials so we can all see the work and superior ethics on which you base all your judgments of others.

Scott Hettrick

Mods, *please* restore pteittinen's posts, so that the post of this marketing person is placed in context. From what I read, the posts were not in any way insulting, and it would be very bad style to delete posts on one side and leave the other's in place.

Clearvision: Was the "Bluray Today" magazine that you wrote the one that proclaimed "Bluray victory is inevitable" and forcasted "billions and billions of blu"?

Mods, *please* restore pteittinen's posts, so that the post of this marketing person is placed in context. From what I read, the posts were not in any way insulting, and it would be very bad style to delete posts on one side and leave the other's in place.

Clearvision: Was the "Bluray Today" magazine that you wrote the one that proclaimed "Bluray victory is inevitable" and forcasted "billions and billions of blu"?

Yes, the magazine, like all magazines, included headlines based on the content in the stories. not necessarily the position of the magazine, just as Time or New York Times may have a headline saying Iraq War To Go On 5 More Years reflecting a projection by Defense Dept. or some expert. That doesn't mean Time or NYT are saying they believe the war will go on 5 more years -- they are noting what someone else said.
So, in the case of the headline: "Forecast: Billions and Billions of Blu," that is reflective of the study in the story showing that Kagan Research projects that within 5 years, the high-def disc market will surpass the billions of dollars in DVD sales. We quoted several studio execs in story projecting sales of billions of dollars. Thus, the headline. It's the same headline I would have run at Video Business or any other publication. Valid headline reflecting the content of the story. Although it wasn't necessary, I ran the headline past Kagan and they had no problem with it.
But I presume you do? That's fine, but the challenge would be to Kagan, not to the credibility of the magazine or the legitimacy of the headline.
Does anyone here ever discuss the actual issues in a civil manner or is it just easier to try to attack the integrity of anyone and anything who has a differing opinion?
(You did not attack here -- this and my related comments in previous post are to the general tone of the majority of comments in the last few days of this thread.)

Darin you are twisting my words.

I am not defending SD. I am just saying that IF anyone chooses they can STILL keep, give away or whatever they want, their HDDVD combo collection and use it.

You see the problem with what you are saying is thinking that EVERYONE will just drop SD overnight and switch to whatever format wins. How funny is this.

You do realize that there will be millions of homes that will have 1 hi-def player and several $30 DVD players, including cars, mobile electronics and players etc etc.

To say that regular SD doesn't have place at all and to hint that it is ok rebuy everything to accomodate forced hi-def format is wrong and pretty much irresponsible. And this is certainly not what HD DVD stands for.

I have over 50+ HD DVD titles for example, but I'm not in question here. I can afford several more Blu-Ray or HD DVD players. this is not what we are talking about. I said 10 HD DVD and 10 Blu-Ray just so it's easier to understand my point.

I am talking about a regular person who doesn't make $60-100k+ a year salary and can't drop $1500-$2000 on a movie collection in like 2 months as I did.

I am comparing reality, while you are citing imaginary scenarios.

The fact is, someone who even has hard time spending $200 on a hi-def player and waits until they can get 5 free discs with their purchase (which is most people by the way) will not have a collection of movies as you and I will have. It's a fact..they will have a few movies in the beginning, they will rent the rest and it will take years for them to accumulate the amount of titles I have collected in just a month. This is why the TRUE next format standard needs to accomodate this transition in the least painful way for consumer.

This is the fundimental difference between a down-to-earth HD DVD supporting individual and Sony-BD dreamer that thinks that everyone is shi*ting money.

For this reason, I said, HD DVD will ALWAYS be better for consumer, not only does it have better features and is more universal (what a true format standard should be) but it gives users a great value as they can make a transition to all hi-def over a longer period of time while still utilizing their existing equipment while using those combo discs.

As it was said many times, and a fact that many Blu-Ray zealots just jump over. The fact that a regular person can buy an HD DVD, then watch it in their car video player, an airplane on their small video player, take it to their bedroom in the same house without the need to buy another $500+ player as they already have a $40 dvd player, or give that movie to grandparents or parents that still don't have hi-def is extermely pro-consumer.

The approach that Sony is doing with Blu-Ray is completely opposite, They are literally saying..you know what in order for you to use all this new stuff to the fullest you need to buy ALL new equipment. I ask you why? Why do you have to replace all of your DVD players in your house with Blu-Ray players in order to use your existing movie collection.

I'm sorry I have problems recommending this to anyone, at least not until we see $50 Blu-Ray players which I think will take about 2-3 more years to at least start thinking about, while HD DVD might hit this price as early as next year.



I completely agree with Amir. The person is very objective regardless of his insider position. But what I'm addressing here has nothing to do with how cool hi-def is and it has everything to do with an overall value for the consumer. So I don't keep repeating myself you can read above again if you're unclear on what I'm talking about.



True, that's why I said, if my player breaks down or whatever, I can still use my HD DVD combos to watch them at my gradparents house, I can borrow it to uncle who doesn't have hi-def, I can carry it with me on the plane when I travel to Europe to watch it on that portable video player... can you do that with Blu-Ray?

The answer is NO.

Sure PS3 will always be able to be used as games, and I never said Blu-Ray will seize to exist, but that's the problem. Today when you say Blu-Ray you say PS3. So what exactly is the point here? Should all users then buy a gaming consoles to watch Blu-Ray movies? If not, then that Blu-Ray standalone will have the same faith if BD loses.

This is a BIG problem for all CE companies that are in BD camp as they have to lose profit to match up with PS3 and even then they are simply not being sold in enough quantities as PS3 is too much of a deal. Can you sense how wrong this is?

I'm betting that most of these CE companies are under contractual obligations and it is the ONLY reason why they are still not coming out with HD DVD only players. But that's just a hunch. Let's not go there.


The whole point is:

Blu-Ray -> ZERO consumer value if it loses and actually forces people to rebuy expensive equipment

HD DVD -> at least some return even if the format loses and allows us consumer to "GROW" into hi-def with less expense or at least expense stretched out until the mass productions takes charge.


That's it.

I think this post needs to be shown again because
a) it has substance which is sorely needed in this thread ever since the mods erased all other
b) it is highly relevant to balance this thread and all other hd-discussions back from ridicoulus pr-spins into objectivity and facts

You have got to be kidding me. Did AVS receive a threatening note from HiHD's lawyers or something? Please restore my posts 1) describing HiHD's positioning before their backers were found out, and 2) asking Mr. Hettrick a bunch of direct questions.
Send a personal PM to the Mods, that's the best way to do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_%28journalism%29

Blu-Ray -> ZERO consumer value if it loses and actually forces people to rebuy expensive equipment

HD DVD -> at least some return even if the format loses and allows us consumer to "GROW" into hi-def with less expense or at least expense stretched out until the mass productions takes charge.

substance and balance? Seems like just another off-the-wall opinion (like most of them here, including many of my own... :D )

Dumb question. Has anyone called Kornblau to confirm?

You guys are all over the map here with your arguments. Some say I manipulated what he said and others endorse wholeheartedly what he said. So if you call Kornblau to ask him (and please be my guest) -- if he tells you everything written is accurate, what are all of you who suggested I twisted his intent going to say? And if he says I did indeed mischaracterize what he said, then what are all of you who endorsed his position going to say?
Must be handy for everyone to present so many arguments that you're covered no matter which way it winds up best suiting your position.

I will presume that you were the one with the laundry list of questions about my payment and relationship and future employment that I glanced at Sunday when I checked back in briefly?
Yes, it was me.

I notice that if I don't respond, I'm criticized for hiding and ducking the tough questions, and if I do respond, I'm criticized for being defensive, overly-sensitive, for being controlling and manipulative as part of my dark scam, and for being in a Forum where I am not welcome and should never have come in the first place -- so there's really no winning, is there?
No, there isn't. I'm sure you knew that before coming to a HD DVD forum to defend your opinion piece. Correct?

But now that you once again immediately jump to the conspiratorial conclusion that anyone at HiHD had anything to do with the removal of comments and questions in this thread (funny how you can jump to unfounded conclusions but many here criticize me for doing just that)
It was not a conclusion. It was a question.

I will respond to the laundry list of questions and incorrect assumptions that I can remember you posed so you can rest easy (though I'm confident you will find some way to combat, challenge and question the honesty, validity and credibility of each and every point)
Firstly, kudos for your excellent memory. I think you didn't forget a single one; that's quite phenomenal, especially after seeing them only yesterday, during a brief visit. The questions certainly weren't on the forum at the time you typed your answers, so yeah, that's one heck of a memory.

Secondly, you needn't have bothered. I don't care about the answers, as I have no reason to believe them. But that's just me. Thanks on the behalf of AVS users who do believe you, though.

I believe you said you are a journalist?
Yes, since 1986.

Since I have been as completely transparent as I know how to be -- with my name
Well, one of us uses his real name as his forum nick (the "p" stands for Petri, the rest is my surname) and the other one doesn't.

I'd love to see you display some of the same journalistic credibility and open the door into your credentials so we can all see the work and superior ethics on which you base all your judgments of others.
Most of what I do these days is covered by an NDA. I'm pretty sure I mentioned earlier in the thread that I work within the home media industry, as a consultant for companies on both sides of the format war. I know you don't believe this (and I don't care), but I'm format neutral, thanks to my employers.

You write as if to a rabid HD DVD fanboy who's only busting your balls because of his format zealotry. The fact is I don't give two sh*** about which side of the war you're on. I'm simply disgusted and offended by the way you're going about it. The sensationalist and downright false headline of the article, for example. Then you're ducking behind the "It wasn't a real article, it was a blog post!" defense. You know perfectly well what you did there, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to admit it. In my eyes you've sold your journalistic ethics to the highest bidder, and we can agree to disagree on that.

Feel free to browse the net for info on me. Hope you understand Finnish, though.

I think I'm done with AVS and it's censorship. So, hey, go nuts with your reply, safe in the knowledge I won't be talking back.

Send a personal PM to the Mods, that's the best way to do it.
I did. The posts are gone, and I'm done here.

Clearvision,

welcome to AVS. There are a few people here (both BD and HD DVD folks) who are sincere and legitimate communicators and do their best to have balanced, adult and respectful conversations. Then there's everyone else. ;) Keep the faith, and know that the folks who should "get it", do get it, and then ingore the rest.

cheers,

dave :)

You guys are all over the map here with your arguments. Some say I manipulated what he said and others endorse wholeheartedly what he said. So if you call Kornblau to ask him (and please be my guest) -- if he tells you everything written is accurate, what are all of you who suggested I twisted his intent going to say? And if he says I did indeed mischaracterize what he said, then what are all of you who endorsed his position going to say?
Must be handy for everyone to present so many arguments that you're covered no matter which way it winds up best suiting your position.

It isn't what you claim he said.... though there were precious few direct quotes. It's your journalistic analysis and editorial opinion some are challenging. You are perfectly free to work for industry interests in a journalistic enterprise, just as others are free to take that into account in judging your credibility. Some might even reasonably describe reservations in this ( or any other similar ) case, as entirely appropriate. There certainly isn't necessarily anything personal, about it, but let's be real here: you likely have a far more vested financial interest in this "war" than the average schmoe who's only investment adds up to a few Franklins.

no wonder I generally avoid AVS. We might as well be back in 1990's newsgroups.

Send a personal PM to the Mods, that's the best way to do it. The thread was so littered, it was easier for me to roll it back than to prune it. That takes hours and I'm not kidding. Had someone reported some of the off-topic and bickering posts SOONER, that action would not have been necessary. I'm sorry when that happens. Everyone who had a legit post that got caught up is welcome to repost, however, stay on-topic, within the rules and NO PROFANITY. Now excuse me while I go deal with the five RPs that have come in since I started typing this. Oh, yeah, and my job, too. <G>

substance and balance? Seems like just another off-the-wall opinion (like most of them here, including many of my own... :D )

Off-the-wall opinion? LOL..you are laughable..

Please, show me how Blu-Ray IS better for consumer and how a consumer won't lose as much as I pointed out if they choose Blu-Ray and if it makes sense I will rectify my post.

I find it interesting that most Blu-Ray fanboys don't really have any logical posts to make but just respond with "oh that's an opinion", "you are a troll", "blu-ray rules", "Oh it's 2:1", like most of the things we talk about are not facts.

It is truly pathetic that most Blu-ray fanboys defend something that they will end up also paying big time for just because they think it's the hot stuff that they have Blu-Ray player and that they paid $500+ for it.

Let me clarify for you:

HD DVD:
- Worldwide usability as there's no regional coding. No limits.
- DVD/HD DVD on one disc - making your investment foolproof and reusable (on existing dvd players, mobile DVD players, car DVDs etc) without buying double copies
- Cheaper hardware and overall software (if you take average pricing)
- Same quality and even in some cases better quality for HD DVD
- Author and burn HD DVD content to regular DVDs to watch on HD DVD players
- All players have ethernet
- Advanced interactive features and web content accessibility
- Any HD DVD gen player works with titles now and future titles. That means 100% compatibility including all extra features (PiP, web etc). So consumer can be safe in knowing that what they buy now will work in 4 months from now.

and let's stop here.

Show me how Blu-Ray can offer these things that for many people will indeed play a HUGE role. Show me whether or not Blu-Ray has everything HD DVD has right now, or will have the same things in the next year and that I can buy a player today or even until the end of the year that will guarantee me that all these things will work and I might consider actually supporting Blu more.

NONE of these things are available on Blu-Ray.

Off-the-wall opinion? LOL..you are laughable..

Please, show me how Blu-Ray IS better for consumer and how a consumer won't lose as much as I pointed out if they choose Blu-Ray and if it makes sense I will rectify my post.

I find it interesting that most Blu-Ray fanboys don't really have any logical posts to make but just respond with "oh that's an opinion", "you are a troll", "blu-ray rules", "Oh it's 2:1", like most of the things we talk about are not facts.

It is truly pathetic that most Blu-ray fanboys defend something that they will end up also paying big time for just because they think it's the hot stuff that they have Blu-Ray player and that they paid $500+ for it.

Let me clarify for you:

HD DVD:
- Worldwide usability as there's no regional coding. No limits.
- DVD/HD DVD on one disc - making your investment foolproof and reusable (on existing dvd players, mobile DVD players, car DVDs etc) without buying double copies
- Cheaper hardware and overall software (if you take average pricing)
- Same quality and even in some cases better quality for HD DVD
- Author and burn HD DVD content to regular DVDs to watch on HD DVD players
- All players have ethernet
- Advanced interactive features and web content accessibility
- Any HD DVD gen player works with titles now and future titles. That means 100% compatibility including all extra features (PiP, web etc). So consumer can be safe in knowing that what they buy now will work in 4 months from now.

and let's stop here.

Show me how Blu-Ray can offer these things that for many people will indeed play a HUGE role. Show me whether or not Blu-Ray has everything HD DVD has right now, or will have the same things in the next year and that I can buy a player today or even until the end of the year that will guarantee me that all these things will work and I might consider actually supporting Blu more.

NONE of these things are available on Blu-Ray.

I hope you aren't expecting a timely and logical response.

I swapped a few PMs with DrDon. He did what he was supposed to, and I agree with his decision. I'll opt for a cooling-off period, instead of leaving all you nice folks for good. Play nice while I'm away, ya hear? :)

I swapped a few PMs with DrDon. He did what he was supposed to, and I agree with his decision. I'll opt for a cooling-off period, instead of leaving all you nice folks for good. Play nice while I'm away, ya hear? :)

I would hope that you try and recreate your original deleted post questioning the interviewer's credibility.

HD DVD:
- Worldwide usability as there's no regional coding. No limits.
- DVD/HD DVD on one disc - making your investment foolproof and reusable (on existing dvd players, mobile DVD players, car DVDs etc) without buying double copies
- Cheaper hardware and overall software (if you take average pricing)
- Same quality and even in some cases better quality for HD DVD
- Author and burn HD DVD content to regular DVDs to watch on HD DVD players
- All players have ethernet
- Advanced interactive features and web content accessibility
- Any HD DVD gen player works with titles now and future titles. That means 100% compatibility including all extra features (PiP, web etc). So consumer can be safe in knowing that what they buy now will work in 4 months from now.


Your original point was that HD DVD would be better for the consumer if HD media, such as BD and HD DVD, were to cease to exist.

I fail to see how having a player with ethernet connection makes use of future content that is not being produced.

I do agree with you that combo-discs offer a unique "fool proof" purchase for an HD collector.

That's the one item from your list that stands out to me as having a real benefit to the consumer beyond the supposed end of HD disc media. However, since the majority of HD DVD discs are not combos, I don't think that benefit is such a resounding advantage format-wide.

Personally I don't base my support of BD on "which format will I be better off collecting should they both go under"... which was the fundamental premise for your discussion. That very premise, to me, is the "off the wall" point of view.

BD is here to stay. And I'll enjoy all the advantages that it brings given its viability.

I swapped a few PMs with DrDon. He did what he was supposed to, and I agree with his decision. I'll opt for a cooling-off period, instead of leaving all you nice folks for good. Play nice while I'm away, ya hear? :)
He PMed me, he do his best to restore your posts tomorrow, he is really swamped today. So you cheer up ya hear? :)

Off-the-wall opinion? LOL..you are laughable..

Please, show me how Blu-Ray IS better for consumer and how a consumer won't lose as much as I pointed out if they choose Blu-Ray and if it makes sense I will rectify my post.

I find it interesting that most Blu-Ray fanboys don't really have any logical posts to make but just respond with "oh that's an opinion", "you are a troll", "blu-ray rules", "Oh it's 2:1", like most of the things we talk about are not facts.

Let me clarify for you:

HD DVD:
- Worldwide usability as there's no regional coding. No limits.
- DVD/HD DVD on one disc - making your investment foolproof and reusable (on existing dvd players, mobile DVD players, car DVDs etc) without buying double copies
- Cheaper hardware and overall software (if you take average pricing)
- Same quality and even in some cases better quality for HD DVD
- Author and burn HD DVD content to regular DVDs to watch on HD DVD players
- All players have ethernet
- Advanced interactive features and web content accessibility
- Any HD DVD gen player works with titles now and future titles. That means 100% compatibility including all extra features (PiP, web etc). So consumer can be safe in knowing that what they buy now will work in 4 months from now.

NONE of these things are available on Blu-Ray.

Hooray, some substantive comments that are on-topic.
You make a lot of good points -- interesting that I have made many of these same points in this thread and on my blog as well because I am able to be both objective and honest and candid in general and on my blog.
As I mentioned earlier, it's true that HD DVD has been first in almost all areas, from launch date to marketing, pricing, and introduction of interactive, on demand PiP and Ethernet connectivity features. True that HD DVD players have had Ethernet and full interactivity as hardware components from the get-go and BD has not (though PS3 has always had Ethernet). Also true that HD DVD was less expensive entry to manufacture and offers the combo disc (a temporary transitional solution, but nonetheless something Blu-ray can't offer). I think the retail price of software gets a little fuzzier for you. Quality is also too close to call for most people.

I don't believe anyone on the Blu-ray side should disagree with any of these points, though many may not officially do so and fan-boys will be as reluctant as many HD DVD fanboys are to concede anything that isn't favorable to your chosen format. Also, paid shills will not admit any of this, which is why myself and Bill Hunt have no problems admitting HD DVD successes.

Probably no need to detail my reasons for projecting a victory for Blu-ray again despite all of the above -- suffice it to say I believe Blu-ray will overcome all these first-year early advantages of HD DVD since even with those advantages HD DVD only has a relatively small advantage in stand-alone hardware in a tiny market and is already losing on software sales 2:1 (yes, I will use that again since it is a fact) and is already at a severe disadvantage when you count even only whatever small percentage of PS3 owners you believe use PS3 for movies.
Given that HD DVD hasn't taken a dominant lead with its clear head start in all the areas you detailed, and given that Blu-ray still has the support of every major studio except Universal and almost every major CE company except Toshiba as Blu-ray prepares to introduce its next-gen BD-Java applications, followed soon after by BD Live Internet connectivity, not to mention its 50 GB capacity and continued growth of PS3 (regardless of how slowly -- still faster and far greater than Xbox add-on drive), I believe the edge HD DVD has had for the past year will quickly evaporate and be left in the dust in the coming months and, for sure, the longterm of next several years.
That's just my opinion and I'm not trying to sway yours -- just answering the challenge you threw out for someone to show you how Blu-ray is better for consumer.
Scott Hettrick

Also, anyone trumpeting the fact that HD DVD hardware is *currently* cheaper than BD hardware needs to realize that by undercutting sales profits on hardware, Toshiba has driven away the major CE manufacturing companies who don't have the same format-royalty incentive to sell hardware at a loss to try to gain market-share/format penetration. It's doubtful that a single company (Toshiba) offering stand-alones can really convince the public that it's backing a format that's got widespread industry support. When folks see Pioneer, Denon, Sony and other names rallying around BD with their hardware support while not doing the same for HD DVD, that sends a message.

Probably no need to detail my reasons for projecting a victory for Blu-ray again despite all of the above -- suffice it to say I believe Blu-ray will overcome all these first-year early advantages of HD DVD since even with those advantages HD DVD only has a relatively small advantage in stand-alone hardware in a tiny market and is already losing on software sales 2:1 (yes, I will use that again since it is a fact) and is already at a severe disadvantage when you count even only whatever small percentage of PS3 owners you believe use PS3 for movies.
Given that HD DVD hasn't taken a dominant lead with its clear head start in all the areas you detailed, and given that Blu-ray still has the support of every major studio except Universal and almost every major CE company except Toshiba as Blu-ray prepares to introduce its next-gen BD-Java applications, followed soon after by BD Live Internet connectivity, not to mention its 50 GB capacity and continued growth of PS3 (regardless of how slowly -- still faster and far greater than Xbox add-on drive), I believe the edge HD DVD has had for the past year will quickly evaporate and be left in the dust in the coming months and, for sure, the longterm of next several years.
That's just my opinion and I'm not trying to sway yours -- just answering the challenge you threw out for someone to show you how Blu-ray is better for consumer.

Yep.

Hooray, some substantive comments that are on-topic.
You make a lot of good points -- interesting that I have made many of these same points in this thread and on my blog as well because I am able to be both objective and honest and candid in general and on my blog.\

As I mentioned earlier, it's true that HD DVD has been first in almost all areas, from launch date to marketing, pricing, and introduction of interactive, on demand PiP and Ethernet connectivity features. True that HD DVD players have had Ethernet and full interactivity as hardware components from the get-go and BD has not (though PS3 has always had Ethernet). Also true that HD DVD was less expensive entry to manufacture and offers the combo disc (a temporary transitional solution, but nonetheless something Blu-ray can't offer). I think the retail price of software gets a little fuzzier for you. Quality is also too close to call for most people.

I don't believe anyone on the Blu-ray side should disagree with any of these points, though many may not officially do so and fan-boys will be as reluctant as many HD DVD fanboys are to concede anything that isn't favorable to your chosen format. Also, paid shills will not admit any of this, which is why myself and Bill Hunt have no problems admitting HD DVD successes.

Probably no need to detail my reasons for projecting a victory for Blu-ray again despite all of the above -- suffice it to say I believe Blu-ray will overcome all these first-year early advantages of HD DVD since even with those advantages HD DVD only has a relatively small advantage in stand-alone hardware in a tiny market and is already losing on software sales 2:1 (yes, I will use that again since it is a fact) and is already at a severe disadvantage when you count even only whatever small percentage of PS3 owners you believe use PS3 for movies.
Given that HD DVD hasn't taken a dominant lead with its clear head start in all the areas you detailed, and given that Blu-ray still has the support of every major studio except Universal and almost every major CE company except Toshiba as Blu-ray prepares to introduce its next-gen BD-Java applications, followed soon after by BD Live Internet connectivity, not to mention its 50 GB capacity and continued growth of PS3 (regardless of how slowly -- still faster and far greater than Xbox add-on drive), I believe the edge HD DVD has had for the past year will quickly evaporate and be left in the dust in the coming months and, for sure, the longterm of next several years.
That's just my opinion and I'm not trying to sway yours -- just answering the challenge you threw out for someone to show you how Blu-ray is better for consumer.
Scott Hettrick


I disagree with many points you have shown.

First of all, THE ONLY reason Blu-Ray took off is because people started buying the CONSOLE with Blu-Ray player in it. I myself bought it and it is no wonder why the numbers look like they look like. Add to that those free giveaways and knowing that CONSOLE sold out in million units, at start, as there's a lot of fans of PS2 console out there, the numbers look skewed. This says NOTHIGN about success of one format. Especially when you push a GAME console to market without games. What do you expect will happen? Of course that people will try to do SOMETHING on the $600 piece of equipment they bought.

Second, the HD DVD head start is completely irrelevant as it was only a few months before PS3 launch. The public doesn't know anything about hi-def today, little less when HD DVD started. The percentage of players sold then and today are quite different. I am certain that if we compared the number of hardware units from the point when HD DVD went public and today would be astronomical.

PS3 was a tactical move. Exactly what you write about. It was meant to give sudden spike in numbers, to give PR people to write about how Blu-Ray won and try to smoke everyone's eyes about what's really going on while in the meantime Blu-Ray association tries to get the specs and standard figured out and completed.

It is absolute disaster that one format, that tries to be the standard doesn't have final specification. Let's not even go into discussion what happens with players this year. How you can say this is good for consumers is beyond me.


As I mentioned earlier, it's true that HD DVD has been first in almost all areas, from launch date to marketing, pricing, and introduction of interactive, on demand PiP and Ethernet connectivity features.


You say HAS BEEN as if Blu-Ray caught up? Caught up in what aspects exactly? Blu-Ray is STILL inferior to HD DVD and will be until Profile 2.0. Until now and then who exactly suffers? Consumers who buy Blu-Ray players as they get a half-assed product.

Let's not forget that sometime at the beginning of this year, Blu-Ray fudsters wer e talking about 4:1 ratio. Now it's 2:1 and shrinking. You know this. And what I bet is really concerning to Sony is that PS3 user base is bigger than it was and the ratio of sold units is actually falling off when compared to HD DVD.

For any reasonable and logical person, this is easily understandable. As public awareness of hi-definition grows the more they will be buying HD DVD. The only weapons Blu-Ray camp has is the dirty PR tactics and payoffs that we see on a daily basis.

It's hard to not talk about this, but it is beyond my comprehension that some who is in hi-def and movies to preach that we should be buying game console. Now there's a funny thing if I ever saw one.

The numbers don't lie. 74% of console owners actually use console for games and own additional standalone player. So if we go by this that means that most people buy PS3 for games.

It is IMPORTANT fact that every single person who owns HD DVD today IS in fact watching HD DVD movies with it.

Why is it that Blu-Ray people are constantly trying to spin this some other way. It is what it is.

This doesn't show that Blu-ray is better for consumer as even today it has not been confirmed that PS3 will be 1.1 Profile compliant, actually the only thing it just shows brute forcing of Sony.



Also true that HD DVD was less expensive entry to manufacture and offers the combo disc (a temporary transitional solution, but nonetheless something Blu-ray can't offer).


So what exactly do you consider TEMPORARY? Is the whole world going to switch to hi-def in 6 months? 2 years? 5 years? If it's more then a year then my friend it's not temporary. I find it arrogant of anyone to expect that the world will just go and buy Blu-Ray for $500+ to replace their DVD players. I'm sure that Sony and the Blu crew would love that. But again, this is anti-consumer.

The transition will last several years if not more. There was just an article that said that hi-def players in people's homes will rise to 30 million or so by 2011. That's 2011!

For a consumer to have a combo disc that will allow them the flexibility of not having to buy 2 versions of the same movies just so they can watch it in the kids bedroom, is completely positive and pro-consumer. Especially when we see that DVD players and DVDs in general will be used for several years at least.


Given that HD DVD hasn't taken a dominant lead with its clear head start in all the areas you detailed, and given that Blu-ray still has the support of every major studio except Universal and almost every major CE company except Toshiba as..

But it HAS taken a significant lead. It has taken a significant lead in standalone players which is what a movie player IS. The numbers there don't lie. I explained my stand on PS3 and the whole "spin me with numbers smoke". I will say again that despite so called "growth" of PS3, your ratio 2:1 will continue to drop. A movie format war is not being won by GAME consoles that have a proven record of non-movie oriented activities.

I will not go into studio support here. Universal, Weinstein, Warner (yes yes they lean more towards HD DVD), Paramount (same scenario) as major ones are more then enough to give diversity. Add to that the ability for HD DVD owners to import Blu-Ray exclusive titles from around the world, makes it even more irrelevant.

As Fox and the crew pays you, I don't doubt that you might know something more, and that they will start releasing titles for Blu-Ray, but when..well you might know, but then again, you might not.

What is reality is that both Fox and Disney stopped releasing. Disney is the only studio that might make some contributions worth mentioning in Q4. So let's not even go with that smoke and mirrors approach there.



Blu-ray prepares to introduce its next-gen BD-Java applications, followed soon after by BD Live Internet connectivity, not to mention its 50 GB capacity and continued growth of PS3 (regardless of how slowly -- still faster and far greater than Xbox add-on drive), ...

So the keywords here are "PREPARES to INTRODUCE" and "FOLLOWED SOON" none of which are RIGHT NOW. Second, whether or not these so called new BD Java applications and BD Live Internet connectivity will work on players bought today is HIGHLY questionable and it is shocking that NOONE talks about this.

I guess it's better to keep the consumer in the dark, slap them at their wallets with $500-$600+ players that most likely won't allow them to play most of these new features.

I find it shocking for anyone with good intentions and love for technology to say anything else but that Blu-Ray is simply not ready and won't be most likely for another year and a half and that this PR dirty fighting is only bad for consumers as it can be observed as "smudge their eyes, show them big numbers, rip them for money and force them to spend more money once the HD DVD is burried".

Also, PS3 sells better tnan X360 AO as it is a console. There's no choice, it's either buy it or don't. For people who liked some Playstation exclusive games have no choice but to buy a console at this price as it is. Is this fair? Just look at what Sony does here. It exploits the reputation it got through consumers and it's games and forces people who want to play those games to pay for the efforts of pushing Blu-Ray. What a wonderful and pro-consumer tactic - NOT! Well no wonder PS2 continues to grow in sales.

HD DVD add-on for XBox 360 is a MOVIE player. There's no difference between an add-on and a standalone player, just price. People who already have an XBox 360 have been given a chance to play HD DVD movies. Let's wait and see what numbers say after the latest reduction and most likely reduction during holidays.

Let me remind you that there's twice as much XBox 360 consoles out there, than PS3s and if only 10% of XBox 360 base buys HD DVD add-on that's going to be around million more HD DVD players worldwide and I have no reason to believe that XBox 360 owner will not buy an HD DVD player as price comes down.


I believe the edge HD DVD has had for the past year will quickly evaporate and be left in the dust in the coming months and, for sure, the longterm of next several years.


Sure, that's if HD DVD doesn't advance. Let me remind you that we will most likely see a 51gb discs this year from HD DVD and we will definitely see more and more improvements to authoring of HD DVD discs that will blow minds of many consumers. You see unlike unfinished specs for Blu-ray, HD DVD authoring only needs to get REFINED. Studios will continue to improve those features to be awesome as they don't have to worry whether or not it will work with some players or it won't, or if all players will have web connectivity etc etc.

You finish with .. Blu-Ray will outperform HD DVD in the longterm in the next several years. So, what exactly are consumers suppose to do again? Buy Blu-Ray stuff until BDA gets it right?

I'm sorry but this is simply laughable, and I can't believe that you are really serious about what you write.

Clearvision: Was the "Bluray Today" magazine that you wrote the one that proclaimed "Bluray victory is inevitable" and forcasted "billions and billions of blu"?Yes, the magazine, like all magazines, included headlines based on the content in the stories. not necessarily the position of the magazine, just as Time or New York Times may have a headline saying Iraq War To Go On 5 More Years reflecting a projection by Defense Dept. or some expert. That doesn't mean Time or NYT are saying they believe the war will go on 5 more years -- they are noting what someone else said.
So, in the case of the headline: "Forecast: Billions and Billions of Blu," that is reflective of the study in the story showing that Kagan Research projects that within 5 years, the high-def disc market will surpass the billions of dollars in DVD sales. We quoted several studio execs in story projecting sales of billions of dollars. Thus, the headline. It's the same headline I would have run at Video Business or any other publication. Valid headline reflecting the content of the story. Although it wasn't necessary, I ran the headline past Kagan and they had no problem with it.
But I presume you do?No, not at all. I think it's all very revealing. Thanks for the confirmation.

Some people are just glad that the Panasonic DMB-BD10 went 50% off in less than a year. They cant sell too many players at $1200 and expect to make any headway in the format war.

About your bitrates and 50gb discs and all that crap. I have 2 words for you "HOT FUZZ".



Ok now no hitting below the belt ;)

About your bitrates and 50gb discs and all that crap.

Is this the mental process required for you to favor HD DVD: call 20 extra GB and 1.5 times the bitrate "crap" but then herald web-based interactivity as the holy-grail of HD media?

Is this the mental process required for you to favor HD DVD: call 20 extra GB and 1.5 times the bitrate "crap" but then herald web-based interactivity as the holy-grail of HD media?

The full gamut of interactive content is accessible for every single HD DVD player produced, while the same cannot be said of first and second gen. Blu ray players. This functionality requires no extraordinary expenditure for the average consumer to benefit from its' inclusion. Can the same be said of 24 bit audio? Have any DBTs suggested that 24 bit PCM is audibly superior to True HD?

- DVD/HD DVD on one disc - making your investment foolproof and reusable (on existing dvd players, mobile DVD players, car DVDs etc) without buying double copiesIf I offered to pay you ten cents for each Blu-ray disc if the format went belly up, would that make your investment foolproof? Sorry, being able to play the inferior side of a combo doesn't make your investment foolproof any more than having a guarantee that an investment won't go to 33% of original value makes that investment foolproof. We've been over this, but if a person cares about high definition image and top sound, then a DVD side is not a substitute for that. And I'm curious, about what percentage of your HD DVDs are combos?
- Cheaper hardware and overall software (if you take average pricing)I already asked you once what titles you used to determine the cheaper software prices. I don't recall seeing an answer. It wouldn't surprise me if you included the $6.95 sampler disc.
Let's not forget that sometime at the beginning of this year, Blu-Ray fudsters were talking about 4:1 ratio. Now it's 2:1 and shrinking.
I'm pretty sure I saw you claim in a different post (maybe one that got deleted here) that it had gone from 4:1, to 3:1, to 2:1 over months. Do you agree that you said that, and if so, how do you justify that and the above when a chart of the 8 week moving average with weekly ratios is:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6842/8wmabs3.gif (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8wmabs3.gif)

Do you stand by that 4:1, to 3:1, to 2:1, over months when you basically have to handpick things to do that? If so, when was it 3:1 by your count? It was just 2.8:1 the week before last and likely close to 3:1 for next week. Sure, it hit 4:1 when Casino Royale came out on Blu-ray and HD DVD had nothing, but people can see that the moving average hasn't changed all that much and even the week to week Blu-ray had a pretty big one recently. And the 8 week moving average has gone up (although slightly) since the beginning of June, while I'm sure readers of your comments would get the impression that it has been going down.
I will say again that despite so called "growth" of PS3, your ratio 2:1 will continue to drop.Please tell us when it is going to drop so we can see if you are right.
I will not go into studio support here. Universal, Weinstein, ...Looks like you won't be able to count the Weinsteins in that list by the end of the year as it looks like Grindhouse will be coming to Blu-ray (if you want to dispute that it will happen, maybe we could make a friendly wager).
Warner (yes yes they lean more towards HD DVD), ...Yep, and their leaning is a big reason that the sales ratio this year isn't worse for HD DVD. If they really do catch up to neutral for their titles it will be like Blu-ray gaining part of a studio. That is one problem for HD DVD going forward. Just getting Warner to continue favoring HD DVD like they have would be a coup for HD DVD.
Disney is the only studio that might make some contributions worth mentioning in Q4.You state this like it is a fact despite Amir (who you seem to trust) saying that Fox has been working on releases behind the scenes. Are you more confident in this statement than the one you made yesterday about there being one million HD DVD players out there (despite it being less than a month since the North American HD DVD group said that the are up to over 180k standalones, the add-ons don't look like they would be much past 200k if that, and the rest of the world doesn't seem to be setting things on fire with Toshiba extending their low US prices around the world)?
HD DVD add-on for XBox 360 is a MOVIE player. There's no difference between an add-on and a standalone player, just price.You know that the XBOX360 with add-on can't deliver 5.1 lossless audio, right? And that all currently compliant HD DVD standalone players can deliver 5.1 lossless audio, right?
Let me remind you that we will most likely see a 51gb discs this year from HD DVD and we will definitely see more and more improvements to authoring of HD DVD discs that will blow minds of many consumers.And yet earlier you claimed:
- Any HD DVD gen player works with titles now and future titles. That means 100% compatibility including all extra features (PiP, web etc). So consumer can be safe in knowing that what they buy now will work in 4 months from now.We already had a Toshiba engineer tell us how difficult it could be to get a 3rd layer to work reliably (reading correctly most of the time isn't good enough) and even Amir doesn't assume that the TL51s will work with 1st gen players (and maybe not current players), so why are you both telling us that any HD DVD player works with all current and future titles and that we will most likely see 51GB discs this year? Do you know something about these that Amir doesn't?
About your bitrates and 50gb discs and all that crap. I have 2 words for you "HOT FUZZ".Serious question. Do you think that extras should continue being in all SD? And please, if you are going to tell us that studios would rather release things on 2 discs, tell us why Hot Fuzz wasn't on 2 discs.

And please go fix that incorrect information you posted about 1 million HD DVD players.

--Darin

darinp2, where is the source of your image? AKA link?

darinp2, where is the source of your image? AKA link?
He got it from BDAFUD@Sonyfanboy.com :D :D :D

darinp2, where is the source of your image? AKA link?Sorry. I probably should have provided a link. I don't know if this is the first time it showed up, but it is in a post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11283700&&#post11283700

It is the Nielsen numbers we get mapped out with an 8 week moving average, so interesting that Oshodi/5thDanMaster considers it FUD.

--Darin

Sorry. I probably should have provided a link. I don't know if this is the first time it showed up, but it is in a post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11283700&&#post11283700

It is the Nielsen numbers we get mapped out with an 8 week moving average, so interesting that Oshodi/5thDanMaster considers it FUD.

--Darin
Anything from you is always BDA slanted anyway, so who reads 'em? :D

You give us a graph posted by another BD fan? How Darinp2-like. ;)

I read Darin's posts, as do a lot of others...

Would you rather he post like a 15 year old gamer with bad grammar so he could be more easily labeled? No.

He may be pro-BD, but he is also intelligent and mature, which is good enough for me.

We've been over this, but if a person cares about high definition image and top sound, then a DVD side is not a substitute for that.

Yes we've been over this and yet you did not respond. Majority of consumers are NOT hi-def enthusiasts and will care about the fact that they can play their hi-def disc on non-hi-def players as well. To say that this is unnecessary is completely apsurd. I've already explain this in that other thread and really have no intention of writing it again. If you are ok with paying $500+ to replace your remaining DVD players with hi-def ones not all people are. Get off your high horse.

Do you stand by that 4:1, to 3:1, to 2:1, over months when you basically have to handpick things to do that? If so, when was it 3:1 by your count? It was just 2.8:1 the week before last and likely close to 3:1 for next week. Sure, it hit 4:1 when Casino Royale came out on Blu-ray and HD DVD had nothing, but people can see that the moving average hasn't changed all that much and even the week to week Blu-ray had a pretty big one recently. ..

Exactly! I stand behind it as BDA and Blu-Ray PR fudsites have exactly praised that information as 4:1 for Blu-Ray. When people said it was because of less titles, Blu-Ray camp was assuring everyone that it's because Blu-Ray is blowing HD DVD out of the water. You see how you know what I'm talking about.

Those handpicked numbers are the ones promoted by Blu-Ray camp even if it was one title or very few, it was still releveant to the whole war. You can't go and yell one thing today and you are saying "well it was only that when I yelled it". It is what it is.

One of the urls that was saying how Blu-Ray blows away HD DVD almost 3:1 as well. http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/768.html

The thing is that here's how Blu-Ray PR works. They announce it, they put it on homepage of hte BLu-Ray site, let it spin a few weeks and they take it off from the site. So later, they write something different. This is typical BS tactic. So when I saw 3:1 I was pretty sure that it was their site too. But of course, now you can't link to it as they took it off. But type in google Blu-Ray outsells HD DVD 3 to 1 and you won't have trouble finding posts and articles. FUD machine gets archives too fortunately.


Looks like you won't be able to count the Weinsteins in that list by the end of the year as it looks like Grindhouse will be coming to Blu-ray (if you want to dispute that it will happen, maybe we could make a friendly wager).


It goes both ways. Before you continue posting FUD as Weinstein going neutral, please show me where they said so. If you can't, it's pure speculation on your part.


Yep, and their leaning is a big reason that the sales ratio this year isn't worse for HD DVD. If they really do catch up to neutral for their titles it will be like Blu-ray gaining part of a studio. That is one problem for HD DVD going forward. Just getting Warner to continue favoring HD DVD like they have would be a coup for HD DVD.

This is ALL your opinion. The fact on the other hand is that Warner constantly keeps releasing better versions of movies with features and interactivity on HD DVD only shows that HD DVD is in fact growing and more and more companies will start supporting it going away from Blu-Ray as we can also see by Onkyo's new HD DVD player, LG and Samsung releasing hybrids etc etc. To say that these are all completely irrelevant things is completely ridiculous.


You state this like it is a fact despite Amir (who you seem to trust) saying that Fox has been working on releases behind the scenes.


I never said that Fox won't release movies, read my post. I said that they will be outshined by Disney in Q4. Meaning that Fox will still be hesitant with the releases until they see how the whole Profile 1.1 will work out with existing players. It would unrealistic to expect that Fox won't release anything anymore on Blu-Ray as they are one of the main backers behind Hollywood in Hi-Def.


Are you more confident in this statement than the one you made yesterday about there being one million HD DVD players out there (despite it being less than a month since the North American HD DVD group said that the are up to over 180k standalones, the add-ons don't look like they would be much past 200k if that, and the rest of the world doesn't seem to be setting things on fire with Toshiba extending their low US prices around the world)?


I will admit that I cannot find an article that was posted very recently that addressed numbers and they said 1 million HD DVD players. I will still try to find it, but for now I will retract that statement, however it is unreasonable to expect that this number you are mentioned was published when? (months ago) hasn't changed at all when we all know that HD DVD players have been outselling 3-4 times if not more Blu-Ray standalones in Europe and other places.


You know that the XBOX360 with add-on can't deliver 5.1 lossless audio, right? And that all currently compliant HD DVD standalone players can deliver 5.1 lossless audio, right?

And this is relevant for a regular person who has up to $1000 audio system how? Will that person be able to hear the difference. I use X360 AO one of my rooms and I find the experience to amazing on my Onkyo 6.1 system that most people have.


And yet earlier you claimed:
...
We already had a Toshiba engineer tell us how difficult it could be to get a 3rd layer to work reliably (reading correctly most of the time isn't good enough) and even Amir doesn't assume that the TL51s will work with 1st gen players (and maybe not current players), so why are you both telling us that any HD DVD player works with all current and future titles and that we will most likely see 51GB discs this year? Do you know something about these that Amir doesn't?


I'm not sure what you are speculating here. My remarks in terms of HD DVD compatibility stands. If TL51 gets approved by HD DVD Group it will be compatible with existing players.

Second, even though I respect Amir, I'm not looking at him as a God and everything that he says it's like bible to me. Maybe you look at things and what Sony and other Blu-Ray backers say, but I actually try to use common sense and logic as well. You can't go through life expecting to see numbers and proof all the time. That's why we have a brain, right?

But let's take a look at Blu-Ray players come November. Playing feature film and nothing else for $500+ is what i call "screwed over".


Serious question. Do you think that extras should continue being in all SD? And please, if you are going to tell us that studios would rather release things on 2 discs, tell us why Hot Fuzz wasn't on 2 discs.


What? I'm sorry I don't understand what you are trying to ask. 300 had extras in hi-def so what? and it came as a combo, so I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say...

And when did I say that studios want to release on 2 discs. Again, you are twisting my words man. You continuosly keep doing that.

Combo discs = LONG term great benefit for consumers. Blu-Ray doesn't have the capability because one of the reasons was that they WANT people to buy multiple Blu-Ray players in order to use them. It's called greed.

My own prediction is that Uni, Disney and Fox go neutral on the same day....a joint announcement.

Obviously, if that were to happen would BD supporters who are critical of Universal being exclusive when all other studios back BD, also criticize Sony for being exclusive, while all other studios are neutral? I am guess not :)

My own gut feeling is that Uni and the HD DVD group is probably working on such a deal with Disney and Fox....a sort of win win face saving decision on all sides.

Me personally I STRONGLY believe all studios should be neutral and allow consumers to decide the winner.
Wow. Really? Picking up any signs of that, or just speculating for fun? Before or after Christmas? So it happens, and then what? Disney and Fox are currently producing little (Disney) to none (Fox), but HD DVD supporters could boast that you everything but Sony and at a better price. On the other hand, BD supporters will say you get everything on BD but can't get Sony on HD DVD, so why would anyone buy HD DVD?

Yes we've been over this and yet you did not respond. Majority of consumers are NOT hi-def enthusiasts and will care about the fact that they can play their hi-def disc on non-hi-def players as well. To say that this is unnecessary is completely apsurd. I've already explain this in that other thread and really have no intention of writing it again. If you are ok with paying $500+ to replace your remaining DVD players with hi-def ones not all people are. Get off your high horse.You can claim, "Get off your high horse" all you want, but a person paying extra for a combo over a DVD will not have their investment be foolproof because of the DVD side. If a person didn't care about HD, they shouldn't have paid extra for an HD disc, whether a combo or not. And is there a reason you don't want to say approximately what percentage of your (80+ I believe) HD DVDs are combos? You seem to switch between combos being a big benefit today and a big benefit at some point in the future. Are you saying they are a big benefit today and if so, are you willing to answer approximately what percentage of your discs are combos?
Exactly! I stand behind it as BDA and Blu-Ray PR fudsites have exactly praised that information as 4:1 for Blu-Ray. When people said it was because of less titles, Blu-Ray camp was assuring everyone that it's because Blu-Ray is blowing HD DVD out of the water. You see how you know what I'm talking about.

Those handpicked numbers are the ones promoted by Blu-Ray camp even if it was one title or very few, it was still releveant to the whole war. You can't go and yell one thing today and you are saying "well it was only that when I yelled it". It is what it is.That explains a lot. I see that you are one of those people who feels that if others mislead then they can too. People like that aren't trustworthy and you should know that. I have been consistent and said it was because of the releases and that those who thought it was going to continue in the week that HD DVD came back with releases didn't really understand what was going on.
It goes both ways. Before you continue posting FUD as Weinstein going neutral, please show me where they said so. If you can't, it's pure speculation on your part.I already told you that we could wager on it if you want. Are you willing to? Do you need a link to a report of somebody representing the Weinsteins at Comic-Con (or however you spell it) saying that Grindhouse would be released on Blu-ray? I would rather wager so I can get something.
I never said that Fox won't release movies, read my post. I said that they will be outshined by Disney in Q4.What you said and I commented on was:
Disney is the only studio that might make some contributions worth mentioning in Q4.Why not stand up and admit you said that?
I will admit that I cannot find an article that was posted very recently that addressed numbers and they said 1 million HD DVD players. I will still try to find it, but for now I will retract that statement, however it is unreasonable to expect that this number you are mentioned was published when? (months ago) hasn't changed at all when we all know that HD DVD players have been outselling 3-4 times if not more Blu-Ray standalones in Europe and other places.I told you right in my post that the 180k+ was within the last month, and your 1 million total is unreasonable. 3x-4x the Blu-ray standalones in Europe wasn't a whole lot at last count as understandably Toshiba was selling a lot less standalones in Europe than in the US (doesn't seem like they've given the same discounts there as here) and Blu-ray wasn't selling a lot of standalones either (but lots of PS3s in Europe as far as this war is concerned).
I'm not sure what you are speculating here. My remarks in terms of HD DVD compatibility stands. If TL51 gets approved by HD DVD Group it will be compatible with existing players.Sounds quite a bit different than your, "... we will most likely see a 51gb discs this year from HD DVD ...". Not sure why you are claiming "most likely" and also that they will be compatible with all existing players unless you know something that others around here don't know.
What? I'm sorry I don't understand what you are trying to ask. 300 had extras in hi-def so what? and it came as a combo, so I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to say...You used Hot Fuzz as an example to put down 50GB discs, yet it had 18 hours of extras and those were all in SD according to highdefdigest. Do you think those would have fit on one disc if they were HD, and if not, do you think extras should continue being in SD for new movies on HD formats?
And when did I say that studios want to release on 2 discs. Again, you are twisting my words man. You continuously keep doing that.I clearly said, "... if you are going to tell us ...", and I didn't think that was hard to understand. So, now that you understand my point about your using Hot Fuzz to put down 50GB discs, can you address it without using that one?

--Darin

My god!! will both of you shut up already!!

Pass the advil, the d1ick measuring contest is giving me a brain tumor!

I read Darin's posts, as do a lot of others...

Would you rather he post like a 15 year old gamer with bad grammar so he could be more easily labeled? No.

He may be pro-BD, but he is also intelligent and mature, which is good enough for me.

I concur. Darin may not always have 100% of his facts straight (let’s be honest none of us do), but his intent is always 100% truth even if it does have a BD slant. In other words he may be making a bigger deal out of BD50s, bit-rate and HD PIP than is needed, but he does endeavor to have his facts straight AND sourced (links direct quotes, et al) which is much more than you will get from 99.9% of BD supporters on these boards and elsewhere.

I may not always agree with Darin’s assertions and analysis, but the intelligent and fact driven discussions he’s normally involved in are a vast improvement over the average Blu-bois FUD that is prevalent on these boards.

You can claim..
--Darin

Listen you keep twisting my words, or misunderstanding I don't which one is it. I can't waste my energy. Let's go ahead and exchange facts after holidays and see who is right. Shell we. I'd like to see if you are right with some of your comments.

One thing is sure, there will be surprises.

Listen you keep twisting my words, or misunderstanding I don't which one is it. I can't waste my energy. Let's go ahead and exchange facts after holidays and see who is right. Shell we. I'd like to see if you are right with some of your comments.

One thing is sure, there will be surprises.No problem and there should be some. Should make for an interesting Q4. But are you going to go address your 1 million claim in the thread you made it in? Maybe you got confused with Toshiba changing an estimate from 1.8 million sold by the end of 2007 to 1 million sold by the end of 2007. I don't think it is even close to reasonable to think there are one million HD DVD players (counting add-ons) in consumers hands at this point.


Oh, and thanks Dr. Crawn and fistofsouth. I do try to be accurate and don't try to counter deception with deception. I don't think I get my facts wrong very often, but feel bad about the HD PiP thing. Many people, including the very trustworthy amillians and also Amir, thought it was mandatory for 1.1 and that is what had been posted, but I wish I had found out sooner as I prefer to be accurate with what I say.

--Darin

One thing for sure darinp2 has a lot of time on his hands...17,071 posts since 11/2003 and counting. darinp2 do you ever sleep. :D Just kidding...I think!

Oh, and thanks Dr. Crawn and fistofsouth. I do try to be accurate and don't try to counter deception with deception. I don't think I get my facts wrong very often, but feel bad about the HD PiP thing. Many people, including the very trustworthy amillians and also Amir, thought it was mandatory for 1.1 and that is what had been posted, but I wish I had found out sooner as I prefer to be accurate with what I say.

--Darin

Bravo to both Darin and nfinity for a very respectful and contained exchange of opinons based on the best facts and research that you each believe to be true, with nfinity offering a very amicable end (for-now) to the dialogue. I found the posts very informative from both perspectives. It's how a forum works at it's very best, in my opinion. Well done.
Scott Hettrick

I disagree with many points you have shown.

First of all, THE ONLY reason Blu-Ray took off is because people started buying the CONSOLE with Blu-Ray player in it. I myself bought it and it is no wonder why the numbers look like they look like. Add to that those free giveaways and knowing that CONSOLE sold out in million units, at start, as there's a lot of fans of PS2 console out there, the numbers look skewed. This says NOTHIGN about success of one format. Especially when you push a GAME console to market without games. What do you expect will happen? Of course that people will try to do SOMETHING on the $600 piece of equipment they bought.

Second, the HD DVD head start is completely irrelevant as it was only a few months before PS3 launch. The public doesn't know anything about hi-def today, little less when HD DVD started. The percentage of players sold then and today are quite different. I am certain that if we compared the number of hardware units from the point when HD DVD went public and today would be astronomical.

PS3 was a tactical move. Exactly what you write about. It was meant to give sudden spike in numbers, to give PR people to write about how Blu-Ray won and try to smoke everyone's eyes about what's really going on while in the meantime Blu-Ray association tries to get the specs and standard figured out and completed.

It is absolute disaster that one format, that tries to be the standard doesn't have final specification. Let's not even go into discussion what happens with players this year. How you can say this is good for consumers is beyond me.



You say HAS BEEN as if Blu-Ray caught up? Caught up in what aspects exactly? Blu-Ray is STILL inferior to HD DVD and will be until Profile 2.0. Until now and then who exactly suffers? Consumers who buy Blu-Ray players as they get a half-assed product.

Let's not forget that sometime at the beginning of this year, Blu-Ray fudsters wer e talking about 4:1 ratio. Now it's 2:1 and shrinking. You know this. And what I bet is really concerning to Sony is that PS3 user base is bigger than it was and the ratio of sold units is actually falling off when compared to HD DVD.

For any reasonable and logical person, this is easily understandable. As public awareness of hi-definition grows the more they will be buying HD DVD. The only weapons Blu-Ray camp has is the dirty PR tactics and payoffs that we see on a daily basis.

It's hard to not talk about this, but it is beyond my comprehension that some who is in hi-def and movies to preach that we should be buying game console. Now there's a funny thing if I ever saw one.

The numbers don't lie. 74% of console owners actually use console for games and own additional standalone player. So if we go by this that means that most people buy PS3 for games.

It is IMPORTANT fact that every single person who owns HD DVD today IS in fact watching HD DVD movies with it.

Why is it that Blu-Ray people are constantly trying to spin this some other way. It is what it is.

This doesn't show that Blu-ray is better for consumer as even today it has not been confirmed that PS3 will be 1.1 Profile compliant, actually the only thing it just shows brute forcing of Sony.




So what exactly do you consider TEMPORARY? Is the whole world going to switch to hi-def in 6 months? 2 years? 5 years? If it's more then a year then my friend it's not temporary. I find it arrogant of anyone to expect that the world will just go and buy Blu-Ray for $500+ to replace their DVD players. I'm sure that Sony and the Blu crew would love that. But again, this is anti-consumer.

The transition will last several years if not more. There was just an article that said that hi-def players in people's homes will rise to 30 million or so by 2011. That's 2011!

For a consumer to have a combo disc that will allow them the flexibility of not having to buy 2 versions of the same movies just so they can watch it in the kids bedroom, is completely positive and pro-consumer. Especially when we see that DVD players and DVDs in general will be used for several years at least.



But it HAS taken a significant lead. It has taken a significant lead in standalone players which is what a movie player IS. The numbers there don't lie. I explained my stand on PS3 and the whole "spin me with numbers smoke". I will say again that despite so called "growth" of PS3, your ratio 2:1 will continue to drop. A movie format war is not being won by GAME consoles that have a proven record of non-movie oriented activities.

I will not go into studio support here. Universal, Weinstein, Warner (yes yes they lean more towards HD DVD), Paramount (same scenario) as major ones are more then enough to give diversity. Add to that the ability for HD DVD owners to import Blu-Ray exclusive titles from around the world, makes it even more irrelevant.

As Fox and the crew pays you, I don't doubt that you might know something more, and that they will start releasing titles for Blu-Ray, but when..well you might know, but then again, you might not.

What is reality is that both Fox and Disney stopped releasing. Disney is the only studio that might make some contributions worth mentioning in Q4. So let's not even go with that smoke and mirrors approach there.



So the keywords here are "PREPARES to INTRODUCE" and "FOLLOWED SOON" none of which are RIGHT NOW. Second, whether or not these so called new BD Java applications and BD Live Internet connectivity will work on players bought today is HIGHLY questionable and it is shocking that NOONE talks about this.

I guess it's better to keep the consumer in the dark, slap them at their wallets with $500-$600+ players that most likely won't allow them to play most of these new features.

I find it shocking for anyone with good intentions and love for technology to say anything else but that Blu-Ray is simply not ready and won't be most likely for another year and a half and that this PR dirty fighting is only bad for consumers as it can be observed as "smudge their eyes, show them big numbers, rip them for money and force them to spend more money once the HD DVD is burried".

Also, PS3 sells better tnan X360 AO as it is a console. There's no choice, it's either buy it or don't. For people who liked some Playstation exclusive games have no choice but to buy a console at this price as it is. Is this fair? Just look at what Sony does here. It exploits the reputation it got through consumers and it's games and forces people who want to play those games to pay for the efforts of pushing Blu-Ray. What a wonderful and pro-consumer tactic - NOT! Well no wonder PS2 continues to grow in sales.

HD DVD add-on for XBox 360 is a MOVIE player. There's no difference between an add-on and a standalone player, just price. People who already have an XBox 360 have been given a chance to play HD DVD movies. Let's wait and see what numbers say after the latest reduction and most likely reduction during holidays.

Let me remind you that there's twice as much XBox 360 consoles out there, than PS3s and if only 10% of XBox 360 base buys HD DVD add-on that's going to be around million more HD DVD players worldwide and I have no reason to believe that XBox 360 owner will not buy an HD DVD player as price comes down.



Sure, that's if HD DVD doesn't advance. Let me remind you that we will most likely see a 51gb discs this year from HD DVD and we will definitely see more and more improvements to authoring of HD DVD discs that will blow minds of many consumers. You see unlike unfinished specs for Blu-ray, HD DVD authoring only needs to get REFINED. Studios will continue to improve those features to be awesome as they don't have to worry whether or not it will work with some players or it won't, or if all players will have web connectivity etc etc.

You finish with .. Blu-Ray will outperform HD DVD in the longterm in the next several years. So, what exactly are consumers suppose to do again? Buy Blu-Ray stuff until BDA gets it right?

I'm sorry but this is simply laughable, and I can't believe that you are really serious about what you write.

I AGREE with you 1000% I sit and wonder how people think that blue ray is better? I think once they light the lamps with BD+ and BD Java, there are going to be serious problems with playback and most diffenantly loading times with a friggen Java app. I think oct 31st or is it nov 31st, which ever date it is for BD+ BD Java, there are going to be MAJOR problems in blurry land!

You can claim, "Get off your high horse" all you want, but a person paying extra for a combo over a DVD will not have their investment be foolproof because of the DVD side. If a person didn't care about HD, they shouldn't have paid extra for an HD disc, whether a combo or not. And is there a reason you don't want to say approximately what percentage of your (80+ I believe) HD DVDs are combos? You seem to switch between combos being a big benefit today and a big benefit at some point in the future. Are you saying they are a big benefit today and if so, are you willing to answer approximately what percentage of your discs are combos?


--Darin
I'll tell you my answer, Because I feel as though I reflect the j6p. I own 8 Hd DVD's 5 are combos and 3 are just HD. I wish they all were combos to be honest with ya. ALL my combos have seen dubble duty in both my HD DVD player and serveral dvd players in my house. My father even borrowed The Departed combo and Superman Returns combo I have to watch in his DVD player. I think you are being kinda short shighted on this combo issue you two are having. I'm just a simple supervisor in some dirty factory living just a tiny better then paycheck to paycheck and combo's a fantastic value to me.

The full gamut of interactive content is accessible for every single HD DVD player produced, while the same cannot be said of first and second gen. Blu ray players. This functionality requires no extraordinary expenditure for the average consumer to benefit from its' inclusion. Can the same be said of 24 bit audio? Have any DBTs suggested that 24 bit PCM is audibly superior to True HD?

BD-J is fully supported on all BD hardware and supplies most of what the above-average interactive-movie-experience would require. I do agree that it would be better still for BD to require full support for all profile features, but I hardly consider the occasional gimmick-feature to hold the same value for the High-def consumer as transparently compressed 1080p images and lossless high-resolution audio.

And yes, there are plenty of people who can tell that 24 bit PCM sounds better than 16 bit... all things being equal. They're called audiophiles. One of them is even producing an HD DVD/BD release and has discussed openly that he hears the improvement of 24-bit over 16-bit reduction. Most of the "can't hear the difference" rhetoric you read about here is about trying to dumb-down our expectations to better match what lies within HD DVD's realistic capabilities. Were HD DVD able to provide 24-bit lossless on all movies and BD not, I'm sure Amir would have that right at the top of is top-10 reasons why HD DVD is better than BD list.

Obviously, if someone values interative-web content over lossless high-res audio on their HD movie discs, the discussion has no where to go. And while many interactive features such as PIP can be enjoyed by anyone on HD DVD (and will be soon on BD with profile 1.1), the number of consumers running internet connections to their players is probably as statistically significant as the number's you'd suggest who can fully appreciate 24-bit lossless audio. :D

BD for the elistists who think they can hear and see bigger specs and HD DVD for the masses - but oh no, can't have that! Our way or the highway - same ol' same ol'.

Cheers,

Grant

Actually Grant, BD will work fine for the masses too... since you don't have to hook up an internet connection to enjoy the interactive content.

:D

Actually Grant, BD will work fine for the masses too... since you don't have to hook up an internet connection to enjoy the interactive content.

:D

Who says we have to either for the most part we are loaded with interactive materials that don't require an internet connection. Its just nice that when there is a web based idea on HD-DVD it can be implemented.

Actually Grant, BD will work fine for the masses too... since you don't have to hook up an internet connection to enjoy the interactive content.

:D

You have got to be kidding me. Well all the more power to you if you believe that nonsense.

Just having fun. ;)

Both HD DVD and BD are fine for the "masses", though BD seems better suited for high-end AV applications where high-res lossless audio would be desired. Have any HD DVD titles pushed past 16-bit TrueHD thus far?

Sorry. I probably should have provided a link. I don't know if this is the first time it showed up, but it is in a post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11283700&&#post11283700

It is the Nielsen numbers we get mapped out with an 8 week moving average, so interesting that Oshodi/5thDanMaster considers it FUD.

--Darin

The reason why I asked for a source to that graph is because it does not look like a plotted graph but, a graph that someone draw. The horizontal lines themselves (red and blue horizontal lines) have what I call draw stops or edges. Which doesn't look like the results of number plotting. Also the second lined graph for HD (which looks pink) appears completed inverted to the BD graph (light blue). If you take the HD graph and flip it up to the BR graph line you may in fact get a near match. If this is true, then how can BR do better then HD having the exact same trend as HD? That makes no sense to me.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6842/8wmabs3.gif

Also the second lined graph for HD (which looks pink) appears completed inverted to the BD graph (light blue). If you take the HD graph and flip it up to the BR graph line you may in fact get a near match. If this is true, then how can BR do better then HD having the exact same trend as HD? That makes no sense to me.

The numbers being plotted are market share. Since % share for HD DVD must, by definition, be equal to 100% - BD%, they will necessarily always be an inverted pair when plotted in this manner.

The numbers being plotted are market share. Since % share for HD DVD must, by definition, be equal to 100% - BD%, they will necessarily always be an inverted pair when plotted in this manner.
I'm sorry but I know better then that. The problem with that is there is no source to imply (or at least show) the % share. Also, in order to show any level of trend doesn't always imply nor suggest an inverted nature from one competitor to another.

I'm sorry but I know better then that. The problem with that is there is no source to imply (or at least show) the % share. Also, in order to show any level of trend doesn't always imply nor suggest an inverted nature from one competitor to another.

It's basic math. This is a graph of % market share, not sales. The two must sum to 100% at each point on the chart. There is no other way it can work.

If you 'know better', then I suggest you go back a re-read a high school algebra text.

It's basic math. This is a graph of % market share, not sales. The two must sum to 100% at each point on the chart. There is no other way it can work.

If you 'know better', then I suggest you go back a re-read a high school algebra text.
LOL, oh really? So where is the source of this information on the graph? Sense it's so obvious for you why not show all of us the source of this information then? Throwing insults won't help your cause here. ;)

... Have any HD DVD titles pushed past 16-bit TrueHD thus far?

Yes, some Universal and Weinstein releases. I believe the Studio Canal titles use 24-bit sourced DTS:MA as well. Warner has done only 16-bit on both formats.

The graph is clearly labeled "Format Marketshare 8-Week Moving Average." It may not accurately reflect actual, relative marketshare, but unless it's somehow been mislabeled, that's what it is intended to represent.

but I hardly consider the occasional gimmick-feature to hold the same value for the High-def consumer as transparently compressed 1080p images and lossless high-resolution audio.

But HDDVD has support for high-res lossless as mandatory specs, and TrueHD is also a mandatory spec, at least according to HDDVD's wikipedia entry. I think that maybe HDDVD has been taking its superior mandatory spec for granted perhaps? By focusing on the interactivity stuff, the message that the HDDVD spec is fundamentally superior is not being communicated?

BD to date _can't_ even have the same interactivity features because until quite recently they're putting out MPEG2/LPCM transfers on 25GB single layer discs? And this is a _feature_? Give me a break! Take one of those MPEG2/LPCM transfers, make a new VC-1 or AVC + TrueHD feature out of it with _better_ picture quality and _smaller_ losslessly compressed audio files, and on a 30GB dual layer disc you'll still have a ton of room for interactive stuff and extra video features.

Oh, and for those who have legacy receivers (no internal HDMI), standalone HDDVD players will realtime downmix to do multichannel DD. How many BD players do that? Pretty important feature for the existing home theater consumer market IMO..

BD to date _can't_ even have the same interactivity features because until quite recently they're putting out MPEG2/LPCM transfers on 25GB single layer discs?Recently? Have you been paying attention the last 6 months? Things are changing, and the competition is no longer against what was available when BD launched.Oh, and for those who have legacy receivers (no internal HDMI), standalone HDDVD players will realtime downmix to do multichannel DD. How many BD players do that? Pretty important feature for the existing home theater consumer market IMO..Per BD spec all discs with TrueHD are required to have an accompanying DD track. There is no disc that I am aware of which will not provide audio over optical (legacy connections). No advantage to HD DVD here.

As far as interactivity, that also will change by the Holidays this year. I agree BD has had more growing pains; but once it's "grown up" HD DVD will pretty much have lost all advantages.

I disagree with many points you have shown.

First of all, THE ONLY reason Blu-Ray took off is because people started buying the CONSOLE with Blu-Ray player in it. I myself bought it and it is no wonder why the numbers look like they look like. Add to that those free giveaways and knowing that CONSOLE sold out in million units, at start, as there's a lot of fans of PS2 console out there, the numbers look skewed. This says NOTHIGN about success of one format. Especially when you push a GAME console to market without games. What do you expect will happen? Of course that people will try to do SOMETHING on the $600 piece of equipment they bought.


Call it THE ONLY reason all you want, but it has gotten bluray a 2:1 software advantage. If it makes you feel any better, Ill even AGREE with you on this one.


Second, the HD DVD head start is completely irrelevant as it was only a few months before PS3 launch. The public doesn't know anything about hi-def today, little less when HD DVD started. The percentage of players sold then and today are quite different. I am certain that if we compared the number of hardware units from the point when HD DVD went public and today would be astronomical.

PS3 was a tactical move. Exactly what you write about. It was meant to give sudden spike in numbers, to give PR people to write about how Blu-Ray won and try to smoke everyone's eyes about what's really going on while in the meantime Blu-Ray association tries to get the specs and standard figured out and completed.

It is absolute disaster that one format, that tries to be the standard doesn't have final specification. Let's not even go into discussion what happens with players this year. How you can say this is good for consumers is beyond me.



You say HAS BEEN as if Blu-Ray caught up? Caught up in what aspects exactly? Blu-Ray is STILL inferior to HD DVD and will be until Profile 2.0. Until now and then who exactly suffers? Consumers who buy Blu-Ray players as they get a half-assed product.

Let's not forget that sometime at the beginning of this year, Blu-Ray fudsters wer e talking about 4:1 ratio. Now it's 2:1 and shrinking. You know this. And what I bet is really concerning to Sony is that PS3 user base is bigger than it was and the ratio of sold units is actually falling off when compared to HD DVD.


UMMM SHRINKING???????????? Ummm, blurays advantage has GROWN and has not had a SINGLE down week. Every week it is consistently been 2:1. Some weeks as high as 3:1. Unless your commenting on a week here and there where it has sold 3:1 and next week it was back down to 2:1. If that makes you feel good then you can continue to think of that as shrinking. And you tell us to believe we are serious about what we write.

For any reasonable and logical person, this is easily understandable. As public awareness of hi-definition grows the more they will be buying HD DVD. The only weapons Blu-Ray camp has is the dirty PR tactics and payoffs that we see on a daily basis.

It's hard to not talk about this, but it is beyond my comprehension that some who is in hi-def and movies to preach that we should be buying game console. Now there's a funny thing if I ever saw one.

The numbers don't lie. 74% of console owners actually use console for games and own additional standalone player. So if we go by this that means that most people buy PS3 for games.

Again, 74% or .5% IT DOESNT MATTER. Bluray has the advantage, where it matters: HEAD TO HEAD SALES. My PS3 is a GREAT bluray player and I like PS3 games (what little there are)

It is IMPORTANT fact that every single person who owns HD DVD today IS in fact watching HD DVD movies with it.

<sarcasm> Are you sure about this? I could have sworn that people would buy HD-DVD players as replacement to pagers <sarcasm

Why is it that Blu-Ray people are constantly trying to spin this some other way. It is what it is.

This doesn't show that Blu-ray is better for consumer as even today it has not been confirmed that PS3 will be 1.1 Profile compliant, actually the only thing it just shows brute forcing of Sony.


So what exactly do you consider TEMPORARY? Is the whole world going to switch to hi-def in 6 months? 2 years? 5 years? If it's more then a year then my friend it's not temporary. I find it arrogant of anyone to expect that the world will just go and buy Blu-Ray for $500+ to replace their DVD players. I'm sure that Sony and the Blu crew would love that. But again, this is anti-consumer.

Bluray players will be down to $300 by the end of the year. You can quote me on that.

The transition will last several years if not more. There was just an article that said that hi-def players in people's homes will rise to 30 million or so by 2011. That's 2011!

For a consumer to have a combo disc that will allow them the flexibility of not having to buy 2 versions of the same movies just so they can watch it in the kids bedroom, is completely positive and pro-consumer. Especially when we see that DVD players and DVDs in general will be used for several years at least.

Yeah, and you have to pay extra for it. I found it so funny how HD-DVD claims to be a cheaper solution.



But it HAS taken a significant lead. It has taken a significant lead in standalone players which is what a movie player IS. The numbers there don't lie. I explained my stand on PS3 and the whole "spin me with numbers smoke". I will say again that despite so called "growth" of PS3, your ratio 2:1 will continue to drop. A movie format war is not being won by GAME consoles that have a proven record of non-movie oriented activities.

Funny, Ive read an article that suggests otherwise, DESPITE cheaper players by Toshiba.
http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6467868

I will not go into studio support here. Universal, Weinstein, Warner (yes yes they lean more towards HD DVD), Paramount (same scenario) as major ones are more then enough to give diversity. Add to that the ability for HD DVD owners to import Blu-Ray exclusive titles from around the world, makes it even more irrelevant.

Well guess what? The majority of HD-DVD owners, WAY more so to than the general public DOES NOT CARE if they can import titles or not. The consumer cares about being able to go into Walmart, Best Buy and Circuit City to buy their favorite movies in HD. They ARE not going to sit there and say "Ahhh crap, <insert favorite movie not avail on your format here> is not available on HD-DVD (or bluray), I think Ill look online for an import." Yeah, I see that happening.


As Fox and the crew pays you, I don't doubt that you might know something more, and that they will start releasing titles for Blu-Ray, but when..well you might know, but then again, you might not.

What is reality is that both Fox and Disney stopped releasing. Disney is the only studio that might make some contributions worth mentioning in Q4. So let's not even go with that smoke and mirrors approach there.



So the keywords here are "PREPARES to INTRODUCE" and "FOLLOWED SOON" none of which are RIGHT NOW. Second, whether or not these so called new BD Java applications and BD Live Internet connectivity will work on players bought today is HIGHLY questionable and it is shocking that NOONE talks about this.

I guess it's better to keep the consumer in the dark, slap them at their wallets with $500-$600+ players that most likely won't allow them to play most of these new features.

Ok, I give you credit here, it does suck that we dont have all those nifty features and I see it as blurays major fault, but guess what the reason people buy movies in HD is to SEE THEM IN HD. The lack of extra features due to an older bluray is not going to affect movie playback, according to bluray anyway. We shall see. SO I concede your point here.

I find it shocking for anyone with good intentions and love for technology to say anything else but that Blu-Ray is simply not ready and won't be most likely for another year and a half and that this PR dirty fighting is only bad for consumers as it can be observed as "smudge their eyes, show them big numbers, rip them for money and force them to spend more money once the HD DVD is burried".


Also, PS3 sells better tnan X360 AO as it is a console. There's no choice, it's either buy it or don't. For people who liked some Playstation exclusive games have no choice but to buy a console at this price as it is. Is this fair? Just look at what Sony does here. It exploits the reputation it got through consumers and it's games and forces people who want to play those games to pay for the efforts of pushing Blu-Ray. What a wonderful and pro-consumer tactic - NOT! Well no wonder PS2 continues to grow in sales.

Ummm, you dont think that the xbox 360 doesnt have its own exclusives? Ever heard of Halo 3? Mass Effect? Bioshock?

The bluray player was not put into not only for movie purposes, but for GAMES purposes as well. DOnt believe me? Read this article for Killzone 2. In short, it says that the game would not have been possible without a bluray drive.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/803/803129p3.html

It is an advantage that games developers will start to take advantage of. Whether or not that leads to better games is another question.

HD DVD add-on for XBox 360 is a MOVIE player. There's no difference between an add-on and a standalone player, just price. People who already have an XBox 360 have been given a chance to play HD DVD movies. Let's wait and see what numbers say after the latest reduction and most likely reduction during holidays.

Let me remind you that there's twice as much XBox 360 consoles out there, than PS3s and if only 10% of XBox 360 base buys HD DVD add-on that's going to be around million more HD DVD players worldwide and I have no reason to believe that XBox 360 owner will not buy an HD DVD player as price comes down.

As much as you might agree with this philosophy, I will not hesitate to say for a SECOND that if MS was truly pro HD-DVD they would have made the drive mandatory. The format war would effectively have been over before it even began. Giving consumers the "choice" probably cost HD-DVD its only chance to win this war.

I find it extremely amusing that HD-DVD camp chooses to ignore the fact that MS is not in the HD-DVD race for them, but to undermine Sony as to cause enough cause consumer confusion so that people will flock to HD downloading via xbox live.



Sure, that's if HD DVD doesn't advance. Let me remind you that we will most likely see a 51gb discs this year from HD DVD and we will definitely see more and more improvements to authoring of HD DVD discs that will blow minds of many consumers. You see unlike unfinished specs for Blu-ray, HD DVD authoring only needs to get REFINED. Studios will continue to improve those features to be awesome as they don't have to worry whether or not it will work with some players or it won't, or if all players will have web connectivity etc etc.

You finish with .. Blu-Ray will outperform HD DVD in the longterm in the next several years. So, what exactly are consumers suppose to do again? Buy Blu-Ray stuff until BDA gets it right?

I'm sorry but this is simply laughable, and I can't believe that you are really serious about what you write.

WHAT????? When has anyone EVER said that HD-DVD will get 51GB discs? I have read plenty of times about how TDK has developed a 100GB bluray disc.
http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/05/19/tdk/index.php

I don't even know where to start correcting the misnomers in Merrick97's post. I'll start with just these two:

The HD DVD forum implied that HD DVD would get 51GB disks when Toshiba submitted TL51 to the HD DVD forum earlier this year. There is a thread on TL51 on the front page of this forum.

The XBox 360 could NOT use an HD DVD drive for two reasons; first HD DVD was not ready when the 360 was launched in November 2005 and second the 360 requires a drive that spins at 12X speeds because that was a part of the 360 spec and since there are no 12X HD DVD drives there is not a way to put one of those in what is now a 2-year-old game system.

I don't even know where to start correcting the misnomers in Merrick97's post. I'll start with just these two:

The HD DVD forum implied that HD DVD would get 51GB disks when Toshiba submitted TL51 to the HD DVD forum earlier this year. There is a thread on TL51 on the front page of this forum.

OH REALLY?? Yet, Toshiba has said nothing about it since. You would think they would given the shape HDDVD is in. HDDVD has had nothing but less-than-good news as of late and an announcement like that would make things interesting again. Yet all there is is silence.

The XBox 360 could NOT use an HD DVD drive for two reasons; first HD DVD was not ready when the 360 was launched in November 2005 and second the 360 requires a drive that spins at 12X speeds because that was a part of the 360 spec and since there are no 12X HD DVD drives there is not a way to put one of those in what is now a 2-year-old game system.

Thats too bad, because it lost yall the war, which could have been won. As I said and you should be aware MS is helping HDDVD so they can attempt to force the market to go with downloadable movies. So they are ultimately going to stab HDDVD in the back.

I love your quote:

HDM Content Fact: John Carpenter, Terry Gilliam, Ron Howard, Peter Jackson, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, Martin Scorsese and The Wachowski Brothers all have more films on HD DVD than on Blu-ray.

Well in October, Steven Spielberg will have more films on bluray than HD-DVD :-)

OH REALLY?? Yet, Toshiba has said nothing about it since. You would think they would given the shape HDDVD is in. HDDVD has had nothing but less-than-good news as of late and an announcement like that would make things interesting again. Yet all there is is silence.

There is silence becuase unlike Sony and Blu fud machine HD DVD Group and DVD Forum issue a press release when things HAPPEN, not like "Oh we won", "We will see the new features in the FUTURE", "this BD-J WILL be available" etc etc.

Second, there's more good news for HD DVD then you would like to acknowledge. Surely you don't expect to see those news appear on all Blu-Ray sites you visit right. You do realize that even idiotic Sony stated news that Blu-Ray sales have increased in Africa LOL are posted everywhere and news like Amazon picks HD DVD to be top pick for the holiday season, out of stock retailers for X360 HD DVD AO can't stock fast enough, Onkyo's new HD DVD player, Denon's plans for the new upper-class HD DVD player, numbers from around the world and new titles announced and so much more are pretty much a rare find.

This ONLY shows how pathetic, without an ounce of credibility and journalistic objectivity sites like Engadget, DailyTech, CNet and quite a few others are. They are stacked with Blu-Ray fanboys and people on Sony's payroll with only one task. PUBLISH PUBLISH PUBLISH Sony news even if it's ridiculous and disregard any HD DVD positive news, so fanboys like you can say that there's no good news for HD DVD.

Simply hilarious. But I guess you gotta live in that imaginary place called Blurayville in order to buy all that crap. Just give it a bit more time, you are overdue for rude awakening.

So they are ultimately going to stab HDDVD in the back.

Please. You don't have a clue what MS is going to do, and neither do most of the rest of us.......with the possible exception of a few insiders.

There is silence becuase unlike Sony and Blu fud machine HD DVD Group and DVD Forum issue a press release when things HAPPEN, not like "Oh we won", "We will see the new features in the FUTURE", "this BD-J WILL be available" etc etc.

Second, there's more good news for HD DVD then you would like to acknowledge. Surely you don't expect to see those news appear on all Blu-Ray sites you visit right. You do realize that even idiotic Sony stated news that Blu-Ray sales have increased in Africa LOL are posted everywhere and news like Amazon picks HD DVD to be top pick for the holiday season, out of stock retailers for X360 HD DVD AO can't stock fast enough, Onkyo's new HD DVD player, Denon's plans for the new upper-class HD DVD player, numbers from around the world and new titles announced and so much more are pretty much a rare find.

This ONLY shows how pathetic, without an ounce of credibility and journalistic objectivity sites like Engadget, DailyTech, CNet and quite a few others are. They are stacked with Blu-Ray fanboys and people on Sony's payroll with only one task. PUBLISH PUBLISH PUBLISH Sony news even if it's ridiculous and disregard any HD DVD positive news, so fanboys like you can say that there's no good news for HD DVD.

Simply hilarious. But I guess you gotta live in that imaginary place called Blurayville in order to buy all that crap. Just give it a bit more time, you are overdue for rude awakening.

Seems like Ive struck a nerve.

2:1 EVERY WEEK

Amazon has picked HD-DVD as the top thing for holiday??? WOW!!! I guess that means I should go and pick up an HDDVD player. They have so much more know than all the sites you mentioned. Thank you for pointing that out to me. How silly of me. You're so right this format war is over.


Call that a lie. You can hate us all you want. You only call those sites pathetic because THEY DONT TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. It has to say something that no site seems to think HD-DVD has a real chance of winning. Oh, excuse me, no "credible" site, except for amazon news.

However, lets make this interesting. Im gonna live in a "what if" world for a second here and answer the question, "what could change things for HD-DVD that would convince me that HD-DVD has a chance of winning?"

1. HDDVD got Disney to go format neutral. This would get all the disney kids movies on HD-DVD and that would be HUGE in places like Walmart.

2. If Walmart decided to sale HD-DVD exclusively.

3. If bluray players started transforming into Decepticons and started killing people.

4. If Lucas was somehow able to get Star Wars out on HD-DVD, despite Fox being exclusive to bluray.
HD-DVD lost its real chance when MS decided not to make an HD-DVD player as part of their system. You can defend that decision all you want, but there would be no format war and we would all be enjoying HDDVD as one right now.


As a matter of fact, I love it here in blurayville. While Im waiting for that rude awakening, Im going to enjoy such films as PotC, Casino Royale, Apocalypto, The Prestige, and The Fifth Element. Im also going to sleep well knowing that films such as Die Hard, Aliens, Bond films, Spiderman, X-men, The Abyss, and Independence Day and one day Star Wars to name a VERY small select few. Not to mention Spielberg is showing a lot of love for HDDVD by choosing to release on bluray instead of going with the studio he has released so many films on.

Oh, I suppose you are going to tell me that HDDVD camp is just going to import those titles


Challenge for you:
Why dont you show me a VERY credible format war news site. Please. I would like to read it. Ill be honest with you, I have come to a point where I am now wearing blu glasses and all I keep hearing from you guys is the same arguments. Show a credible news site that has gotten you convinced that HDDVD is going to win this war. If I see something credible I will say so. Promise.

Bravo to both Darin and nfinity for a very respectful and contained exchange of opinons based on the best facts and research that you each believe to be true, with nfinity offering a very amicable end (for-now) to the dialogue. I found the posts very informative from both perspectives. It's how a forum works at it's very best, in my opinion. Well done.
Scott Hettrick
Hope you are taking notes. ;)

Please. You don't have a clue what MS is going to do, and neither do most of the rest of us.......with the possible exception of a few insiders.


Really?? Then why are they telling the public that their ultimate goal is no media?
They have said this in public:

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”

Read here:
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757

Seems like Ive struck a nerve.

2:1 EVERY WEEK

Amazon has picked HD-DVD as the top thing for holiday??? WOW!!! I guess that means I should go and pick up an HDDVD player. They have so much more know than all the sites you mentioned. Thank you for pointing that out to me. How silly of me. You're so right this format war is over.


Call that a lie. You can hate us all you want. You only call those sites pathetic because THEY DONT TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. It has to say something that no site seems to think HD-DVD has a real chance of winning. Oh, excuse me, no "credible" site, except for amazon news.

However, lets make this interesting. Im gonna live in a "what if" world for a second here and answer the question, "what could change things for HD-DVD that would convince me that HD-DVD has a chance of winning?"

1. HDDVD got Disney to go format neutral. This would get all the disney kids movies on HD-DVD and that would be HUGE in places like Walmart.

2. If Walmart decided to sale HD-DVD exclusively.

3. If bluray players started transforming into Decepticons and started killing people.

4. If Lucas was somehow able to get Star Wars out on HD-DVD, despite Fox being exclusive to bluray.
HD-DVD lost its real chance when MS decided not to make an HD-DVD player as part of their system. You can defend that decision all you want, but there would be no format war and we would all be enjoying HDDVD as one right now.


As a matter of fact, I love it here in blurayville. While Im waiting for that rude awakening, Im going to enjoy such films as PotC, Casino Royale, Apocalypto, The Prestige, and The Fifth Element. Im also going to sleep well knowing that films such as Die Hard, Aliens, Bond films, Spiderman, X-men, The Abyss, and Independence Day and one day Star Wars to name a VERY small select few. Not to mention Spielberg is showing a lot of love for HDDVD by choosing to release on bluray instead of going with the studio he has released so many films on.

Oh, I suppose you are going to tell me that HDDVD camp is just going to import those titles


Challenge for you:
Why dont you show me a VERY credible format war news site. Please. I would like to read it. Ill be honest with you, I have come to a point where I am now wearing blu glasses and all I keep hearing from you guys is the same arguments. Show a credible news site that has gotten you convinced that HDDVD is going to win this war. If I see something credible I will say so. Promise.

Kid you are trolling.. grow up..

Really?? Then why are they telling the public that their ultimate goal is no media?
They have said this in public:

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”

Read here:
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757

No physical media standard has ever been permanent, and the infrastructure isn't yet there for mass adoption of digital downloads. As to the future, it's a no-brainer, but for now the answer is yes, "really." Your musing is entirely speculative and baseless.

Kid you are trolling.. grow up..

Sounds to me like he just Fudded all over you. :p

No physical media standard has ever been permanent, and the infrastructure isn't yet there for mass adoption of digital downloads. As to the future, it's a no-brainer, but for now the answer is yes, "really." Your musing is entirely speculative and baseless.



Personaly, Ill take having two formats ANY DAY over being forced to go all digital downloads.

I hope it doesnt happen and frankly, I dont think it will until it gets to a point where you can get a full 1080p movie in under 10 minutes. Yeah, thats a long way off.

Personaly, Ill take having two formats ANY DAY over being forced to go all digital downloads.

I hope it doesnt happen and frankly, I dont think it will until it gets to a point where you can get a full 1080p movie in under 10 minutes. Yeah, thats a long way off.

Totally agree

But HDDVD has support for high-res lossless as mandatory specs, and TrueHD is also a mandatory spec, at least according to HDDVD's wikipedia entry. I think that maybe HDDVD has been taking its superior mandatory spec for granted perhaps? By focusing on the interactivity stuff, the message that the HDDVD spec is fundamentally superior is not being communicated?

"Superior". Guess what that spec actually mandates. Just 2.0 decoding of Dolby TrueHD. Yep. That's it. Not 5.1 lossless decoding. And DTS-HD MA (lossless) isn't mandated either.

So basically what HD DVD has "mandatory" over Blu-ray is 2.0 extraction from Dolby TrueHD. Not very earth-shattering when virtually all BD machines sold currently decode Dolby TrueHD 5.1 (or can be upgraded to do so).


BD to date _can't_ even have the same interactivity features because until quite recently they're putting out MPEG2/LPCM transfers on 25GB single layer discs?

Where have you been? After that admitedly pitiful first handful of disc released at launch using MPEG2 on 25GB discs Sony did a serious about-face. Disney and Sony have pushed their BD quality past what WB is providing on HD DVD. The AVC compressed Pirates films look sharper and more detailed than any HD DVD, period. This isn't to say that HD DVD can't look as good, because it can. It's just to say that BD authoring has already picked up the pace and is already taking full advantage of 50GB space with Disney and Sony titles... for some months now. Naturally Warner still uses 30GB-optimized video and audio encodes for its BDs since they don't want to push the BD quality past the HD DVD authored file (and using the same file economizes their labor as well).

You say "PCM" with a derogoatory tone. Curious as Sony and Disney have provided lossless audio (via PCM) on virtually every BD title they release, while WB and other HD DVD studios only provide lossless audio for "special" releases deemed worthy of bandwidth given the greater difficulty it creates for video compression within the more limited bandwith of that format.

OH REALLY?? Yet, Toshiba has said nothing about it since. You would think they would given the shape HDDVD is in. HDDVD has had nothing but less-than-good news as of late and an announcement like that would make things interesting again. Yet all there is is silence.

It's going to happen and Amir and others discuss it all the time in the insider's thread.

Thats too bad, because it lost yall the war, which could have been won. As I said and you should be aware MS is helping HDDVD so they can attempt to force the market to go with downloadable movies. So they are ultimately going to stab HDDVD in the back.


You're funny. I'm glad you have everything figured out for MS, too bad you weren't around 30 years ago; perhaps Bill could have Trillions instead of Billions. We all know that MS is hoping to make piles of cash off of downloads and that's just fine. I really don't care that much about their motivations because the result works for me.

Who is this y'all (that's how it's spelled, I'm a Texan, I know) you speak of? I have not been in a war since I was flying sorties over Serbia in 99 so I don't know what war you are talking about; I'm not involved in one. I do plan on being format neutral when there is another format to choose. Right now HD DVD is the only HDM product that is finished and ready for prime-time. Let the BDA get up to Profile 2.0 and I'll entertain getting a BD Player. I'm simply not interested in paying $500 for the "Privilege" of Beta testing for Sony and the rest of the BDA. I pity the fact that you were duped into doing so and I can see why that might make you bitter, but the HD DVD group didn't do it to you so take your trolling elsewhere.

Who is this y'all (that's how it's spelled, I'm a Texan, I know) you speak of? I have not been in a war since I was flying sorties over Serbia in 99 so I don't know what war you are talking about; I'm not involved in one. I do plan on being format neutral when there is another format to choose. Right now HD DVD is the only HDM product that is finished and ready for prime-time. Let the BDA get up to Profile 2.0 and I'll entertain getting a BD Player. I'm simply not interested in paying $500 for the "Privilege" of Beta testing for Sony and the rest of the BDA. I pity the fact that you were duped into doing so and I can see why that might make you bitter, but the HD DVD group didn't do it to you so take your trolling elsewhere.


I pity the fact that you are duped into believing that HD-DVD is really gonna win this format war.


Watch Pirates of the Caribbean and tell me that bluray isnt already at prime time.

I love your quote:

HDM Content Fact: John Carpenter, Terry Gilliam, Ron Howard, Peter Jackson, Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch, Martin Scorsese and The Wachowski Brothers all have more films on HD DVD than on Blu-ray.

Well in October, Steven Spielberg will have more films on bluray than HD-DVD :-)


I'm glad you like my signature. SS would be a good, if temporary, coup for BD. Keep in mind that Universal holds the rights to many of Spielberg's best films. Also I would like to point out that because of space limitations I was unable to post the full extent of HD DVD's directorial prowess:

Judd Apatow
The 40 Year Old Virgin (Exclusive)
Knocked Up (Exclusive)

Harold Becker
Sea of Love (Exclusive)
Mercury Rising (Exclusive)

John Carpenter
The Thing (Exclusive)
The Fog (Exclusive) Import

Cohen Brothers
The Big Lebowski (Exclusive)

Tamra Davis
Billy Madison (Exclusive)
Half Baked (Exclusive)

Brian De Palma
The Untouchables
Carlito's Way (Exclusive)
Mission Impossible

David Fincher
The Game (Exclusive)
Zodiac

Terry Gilliam
12 Monkeys (Exclusive)
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Exclusive)
The Brothers Grimm Import

Ron “Oppie Cunningham” Howard
Backdraft (Exclusive)
Appollo 13 (Exclusive)
How the Grinch Stole Christmas (Exclusive)
Cinderella Man (Exclusive)

Peter Jackson
The Frighteners (Exclusive)
King Kong (Exclusive)

Stanley Kubrick
Spartacus (Exclusive)
2001: A Space Odyssey
A Clockwork Orange
The Shining
Full Metal Jacket
Eyes Wide Shut (Exclusive) Import

John Landis
National Lampoon's Animal House (Exclusive)
An American Werewolf in London (Exclusive)
The Twilight Zone
Trading Places
Coming to America

Richard Linklater
Dazed and Confused (Exclusive)
A Scanner Darkly

Sidney Lumet
Serpico (Exclusive) Import
Dog Day Afternoon

David Lynch
The Elephant Man (Exclusive) Import
Dune (Exclusive)
Mulholland Drive (Exclusive) Import

Wolfgang Peterson
The Perfect Storm (Exclusive)
Troy
Poseidon (Exclusive)

Roman Polanski
The Pianist (Exclusive) Import
Oliver Twist (Exclusive) Import

Sydney Pollack
Three Days of the Condor (Exclusive) Import
The Interpreter (Exclusive)

Sam Raimi
Army of Darkness (Exclusive)
Darkman (Exclusive)

Martin Scorsese
Goodfellas
Casino (Exclusive)
Gangs of New York (Exclusive) Import
The Departed

Tom Shadyac
The Nutty Professor (Exclusive)
Liar Liar (Exclusive)
Patch Adams (Exclusive)
Bruce Almighty (Exclusive)

Zack Snyder
Dawn of the Dead (Exclusive)
300

Steven Soderbergh
Traffic (Exclusive)
Erin Brockovich (Exclusive)

Wachowski Brothers
The Matrix (Exclusive)
The Matrix: Reloaded (Exclusive)
The Matrix: Revolutions (Exclusive)
V for Vendetta (Exclusive)

Edgar Wright
Shaun of the Dead (Exclusive)
Hot Fuzz (Exclusive)

BD will get the Raimi advantage when the Spiderman films are released on BD later this year.

I'm glad you like my signature. SS would be a good, if temporary, coup for BD. Keep in mind that Universal holds the rights to many of Spielberg's best films. Also I would like to point out that because of space limitations I was unable to post the full extent of HD DVD's directorial prowess:

Judd Apatow
The 40 Year Old Virgin (Exclusive)
Knocked Up (Exclusive)

Harold Becker
Sea of Love (Exclusive)
Mercury Rising (Exclusive)

John Carpenter
The Thing (Exclusive)
The Fog (Exclusive) Import

Cohen Brothers
The Big Lebowski (Exclusive)

Tamra Davis
Billy Madison (Exclusive)
Half Baked (Exclusive)

Brian De Palma
The Untouchables
Carlito's Way (Exclusive)
Mission Impossible

David Fincher
The Game (Exclusive)
Zodiac

Terry Gilliam
12 Monkeys (Exclusive)
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Exclusive)
The Brothers Grimm Import

Ron “Oppie Cunningham” Howard
Backdraft (Exclusive)
Appollo 13 (Exclusive)
How the Grinch Stole Christmas (Exclusive)
Cinderella Man (Exclusive)

Peter Jackson
The Frighteners (Exclusive)
King Kong (Exclusive)

Stanley Kubrick
Spartacus (Exclusive)
2001: A Space Odyssey
A Clockwork Orange
The Shining
Full Metal Jacket
Eyes Wide Shut (Exclusive) Import

John Landis
National Lampoon's Animal House (Exclusive)
An American Werewolf in London (Exclusive)
The Twilight Zone
Trading Places
Coming to America

Richard Linklater
Dazed and Confused (Exclusive)
A Scanner Darkly

Sidney Lumet
Serpico (Exclusive) Import
Dog Day Afternoon

David Lynch
The Elephant Man (Exclusive) Import
Dune (Exclusive)
Mulholland Drive (Exclusive) Import

Wolfgang Peterson
The Perfect Storm (Exclusive)
Troy
Poseidon (Exclusive)

Roman Polanski
The Pianist (Exclusive) Import
Oliver Twist (Exclusive) Import

Sydney Pollack
Three Days of the Condor (Exclusive) Import
The Interpreter (Exclusive)

Sam Raimi
Army of Darkness (Exclusive)
Darkman (Exclusive)

Martin Scorsese
Goodfellas
Casino (Exclusive)
Gangs of New York (Exclusive) Import
The Departed

Tom Shadyac
The Nutty Professor (Exclusive)
Liar Liar (Exclusive)
Patch Adams (Exclusive)
Bruce Almighty (Exclusive)

Zack Snyder
Dawn of the Dead (Exclusive)
300

Steven Soderbergh
Traffic (Exclusive)
Erin Brockovich (Exclusive)

Wachowski Brothers
The Matrix (Exclusive)
The Matrix: Reloaded (Exclusive)
The Matrix: Revolutions (Exclusive)
V for Vendetta (Exclusive)

Edgar Wright
Shaun of the Dead (Exclusive)
Hot Fuzz (Exclusive)

BD will get the Raimi advantage when the Spiderman films are released on BD later this year.


The Evil Dead trilogy is coming to bluray in october, which does include the Boomstick edition of Army of Darkness (ala directors cut and original cut :-) )

The Matrix films (and V for Vendetta) are also going to get released on bluray.

Im not saying that those arent good films, but seriously which of those titles are going to move HDDVD players off the shelf the same way titles like Spiderman 2, PotC and Cars are going to move bluray players off shelfs?

Not to mention that the title that was supposed to get HD-DVD back in the game, 300, lost in sales to bluray by the expected 2 to 1 margin

The Evil Dead trilogy is coming to bluray in october, which does include the Boomstick edition of Army of Darkness (ala directors cut and original cut :-) )

The Matrix films (and V for Vendetta) are also going to get released on bluray.

Im not saying that those arent good films, but seriously which of those titles are going to move HDDVD players off the shelf the same way titles like Spiderman 2, PotC and Cars are going to move bluray players off shelfs?

Not to mention that the title that was supposed to get HD-DVD back in the game, 300, lost in sales to bluray by the expected 2 to 1 margin

I don't recall anyone saying that 300, which is tailor made for the PS3 demographic, would sell better on HD DVD. Also 65/35 isn't 2 to 1 and considering installed base 300 sold BETTER on HD DVD than on Blu-ray; over 20% of people that have HD DVD have a copy of 300 and around 10% of BD owners have 300. There is no getting "back in the game" when you already have superior content (both in variety and numbers), greater capacity (yep it's still 60% BD25 and 85% HD30), a complete product and lower prices.

Now go perform some research and tell me what third edition of a series this summer was lauded by critics and fans alike? It wasn't Spiderman 3, it wasn't POTC3 it was The Bourne Ultimatum.

I'll tell you my answer, Because I feel as though I reflect the j6p. I own 8 Hd DVD's 5 are combos and 3 are just HD. I wish they all were combos to be honest with ya. ALL my combos have seen dubble duty in both my HD DVD player and serveral dvd players in my house. My father even borrowed The Departed combo and Superman Returns combo I have to watch in his DVD player. I think you are being kinda short shighted on this combo issue you two are having. I'm just a simple supervisor in some dirty factory living just a tiny better then paycheck to paycheck and combo's a fantastic value to me.I understand that some people like them. But I do find it interesting when people trash Sony for putting Blu-ray in the PS3 and not giving people a choice not to by the Blu-ray movie part, while pushing HD DVD as the side with choice since people can buy the XBOX360 add-on or not, when there are many HD DVD discs where consumers aren't given a choice, they are forced to buy the DVD part that many of them don't want, if they want to get the HD DVD part. Combos would be a lot more consumer friendly if they offered both varities from the first day, one without the DVD side and no $5 higher MSRP and then the combo disc.

--Darin

I don't recall anyone saying that 300, which is tailor made for the PS3 demographic, would sell better on HD DVD. Also 65/35 isn't 2 to 1 and considering installed base 300 sold BETTER on HD DVD than on Blu-ray; over 20% of people that have HD DVD have a copy of 300 and around 10% of BD owners have 300. There is no getting "back in the game" when you already have superior content (both in variety and numbers), greater capacity (yep it's still 60% BD25 and 85% HD30), a complete product and lower prices.

Now go perform some research and tell me what third edition of a series this summer was lauded by critics and fans alike? It wasn't Spiderman 3, it wasn't POTC3 it was The Bourne Ultimatum.

Dont put words in my mouth. My argument was NEVER about which films were better. NEVER. It was about which titles are more likely to sway customers to buying into a particular format.
A good film it may be, but Bourne is not gonna come CLOSE to making the amount of money that those two films made and MONEY is what the studios care about. Sadly, a better film does not always make more money. As good as the Bourne films have been (Make no mistake, I LOVE them) that franchise has not generated anywhere near the revenue as the Spiderman or PotC franchise in terms of disc sells and money.

65/35 is 1.9 to 1 effectively 2 to 1. Sue me.

The reason why I asked for a source to that graph is because it does not look like a plotted graph but, a graph that someone draw. The horizontal lines themselves (red and blue horizontal lines) have what I call draw stops or edges. Which doesn't look like the results of number plotting. Also the second lined graph for HD (which looks pink) appears completed inverted to the BD graph (light blue). If you take the HD graph and flip it up to the BR graph line you may in fact get a near match. If this is true, then how can BR do better then HD having the exact same trend as HD? That makes no sense to me.As others have pointed out, it is an inverse by definition and the two will have an inverse trend from each other, just like they have the inverse market share (or 100% minus the other's share). The original data is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11278048&&#post11278048

--Darin

Dont put words in my mouth. My argument was NEVER about which films were better. NEVER. It was about which titles are more likely to sway customers to buying into a particular format.
A good film it may be, but Bourne is not gonna come CLOSE to making the amount of money that those two films made and MONEY is what the studios care about. Sadly, a better film does not always make more money. As good as the Bourne films have been (Make no mistake, I LOVE them) that franchise has not generated anywhere near the revenue as the Spiderman or PotC franchise in terms of disc sells and money.

65/35 is 1.9 to 1 effectively 2 to 1. Sue me.

I'm not putting word in your mouth.

Spiderman and POTC are both welcome additions to a format that has been dominated by films that appeal to 15-25 year-old males. Some films with a sub-R rating would be welcome addition to both HDM libraries.

While we're on the topic of what sells guess what has been the biggest seller for DVD? It isn't POTC and it isn't Spiderman it's TV series on DVD.

What was the highest rated new show on Tv last year? Heroes, HD DVD exclusive.

What has been the highest rated show on basic cable for the last 3 years? Battlestar Galactica, also an HD DVD exclusive.

What has been one of the top rated syndicated TV shows in History? Star Trek: TOS, another HD DVD exclusive.

Add to that Bourne, Knocked up and a bevy of other HD exclusives sitting next to HD DVD players priced under $200 and you have a winning combination.

I'm not putting word in your mouth.

Spiderman and POTC are both welcome additions to a format that has been dominated by films that appeal to 15-25 year-old males. Some films with a sub-R rating would be welcome addition to both HDM libraries.

While we're on the topic of what sells guess what has been the biggest seller for DVD? It isn't POTC and it isn't Spiderman it's TV series on DVD.

What was the highest rated new show on Tv last year? Heroes, HD DVD exclusive.

What has been the highest rated show on basic cable for the last 3 years? Battlestar Galactica, also an HD DVD exclusive.

What has been one of the top rated syndicated TV shows in History? Star Trek: TOS, another HD DVD exclusive.

Add to that Bourne, Knocked up and a bevy of other HD exclusives sitting next to HD DVD players priced under $200 and you have a winning combination.


I dont buy that any single TV series on dvd has outsold a PotC or Spiderman dvd. Show me a source of this. While dvd is certainly not going anywhere, the market has changed dramatically since its inception.

Im not saying that they are irrelevant, but the HD def community is young right now and people want their favorite movies on them, not TV shows. Did dvd get jump started by what TV series were on the format? No, it was films such as the Matrix. This isnt going to be any different this time around. Titles like 300, Hot Fuzz, Casino Royale and The Departed are proof of this. TV series are not going to alter the direction of the format war, especially for series that are still being broadcast on TV. Speaking of that, I would seriously doubt that Heroes is going to sell huge on HD-DVD and by huge I mean greater than 30,000 units. It could end up be the hottest selling HD TV series considering the lack of competition. Not to mention that it is a great show.

As for Star Trek on HDDVD, its priced at $217, which is absolutely ridiculous. I suspect that price will change by release date though

Im not saying that HDDVD has nothing to look forward to, but if I was a stock holder I would feel a whole lot better about my chances in betting that films such as PotC and Spiderman 3 selling better than ANYTHING that Universal could throw at me.

I'm not putting word in your mouth.

Spiderman and POTC are both welcome additions to a format that has been dominated by films that appeal to 15-25 year-old males. Some films with a sub-R rating would be welcome addition to both HDM libraries.

While we're on the topic of what sells guess what has been the biggest seller for DVD? It isn't POTC and it isn't Spiderman it's TV series on DVD.

What was the highest rated new show on Tv last year? Heroes, HD DVD exclusive.

What has been the highest rated show on basic cable for the last 3 years? Battlestar Galactica, also an HD DVD exclusive.

What has been one of the top rated syndicated TV shows in History? Star Trek: TOS, another HD DVD exclusive.

Add to that Bourne, Knocked up and a bevy of other HD exclusives sitting next to HD DVD players priced under $200 and you have a winning combination.


They can't handle the truth! Way to go! :)
I see Blu-ray companies in general with dirty tactics more frequently than hd-dvd companies. Take my player for example, the LG won't show hd-dvd menu's (hdi), but easily built in, is the blu-ray menu. Some of these tactics percolate down to their ps3 owners(who are mainly of a younger demographic) who I witness bashing hd-dvd with more frequency as well.

HD-dvd is all good! :cool:

I dont buy that any single TV series on dvd has outsold a PotC or Spiderman dvd. Show me a source of this. While dvd is certainly not going anywhere, the market has changed dramatically since its inception.

Im not saying that they are irrelevant, but the HD def community is young right now and people want their favorite movies on them, not TV shows. Did dvd get jump started by what TV series were on the format? No, it was films such as the Matrix. This isnt going to be any different this time around. Titles like 300, Hot Fuzz, Casino Royale and The Departed are proof of this. TV series are not going to alter the direction of the format war, especially for series that are still being broadcast on TV. Speaking of that, I would seriously doubt that Heroes is going to sell huge on HD-DVD and by huge I mean greater than 30,000 units. It could end up be the hottest selling HD TV series considering the lack of competition. Not to mention that it is a great show.

As for Star Trek on HDDVD, its priced at $217, which is absolutely ridiculous. I suspect that price will change by release date though

Im not saying that HDDVD has nothing to look forward to, but if I was a stock holder I would feel a whole lot better about my chances in betting that films such as PotC and Spiderman 3 selling better than ANYTHING that Universal could throw at me.

First I would warn against using comparisons between previous formats and the current HDM war because either you are on the losing side of history or we both are. VHS versus Beta was largely determined by the Porn industry; there are currently five times as many Porn HD DVDs as there are Porn BDs. DVD versus DIVX; Disney and Fox supported DIVX exclusively just like they are supporting Blu-ray exclusively. Ask anyone what DIVX is today and they will probably mention the web-based media player not the failed “value added” format. SACD versus DVD Audio; Sony versus Panasonic and most people don’t know those formats even exist.

I didn’t say that any TV series outsold Spiderman or POTC I said TV shows on DVD have been making more money for studios than films on DVD. That isn’t based on number of units sold, but on money made from selling them. One example that would be cogent to this discussion is Planet Earth Vs. The Departed; by May 2007 The Departed sold over 100,000 copies between BD and HD DVD conversely Planet Earth sold less than 50,000 copies between the two formats. Yet according to Warner they made more money off of Planet Earth than they did on The Departed. How is that? How could a BBC produced TV series with a limited run on A&E make more money than the movie that won the freaking Academy Award? Simple The Departed had an MSRP of $34.95 on BD and $39.95 on HD DVD while Planet Earth had an MSRP of $99.95 on both formats; you don’t need to sell high volume when you are selling units for over twice the price.

I will virtually guarantee that the Star Trek: TOS re-master will sell better than POTC3 and S3 BDs COMBINED. You know why? There is no DVD only version of the Star Trek re-master so if you want that re-master for your DVD player you will need to buy the HD DVD-DVD Combo set because that’s all there is. They could sell a million units. The $217 price only helps HD DVD; after all if you dropped over $200 on the DVD set why not just ante up another $200 for the hardware to play the HD DVD side?

I will virtually guarantee that the Star Trek: TOS re-master will sell better than POTC3 and S3 BDs COMBINED. You know why? There is no DVD only version of the Star Trek re-master so if you want that re-master for your DVD player you will need to buy the HD DVD-DVD Combo set because that’s all there is. They could sell a million units. The $217 price only helps HD DVD; after all if you dropped over $200 on the DVD set why not just ante up another $200 for the hardware to play the HD DVD side?


This will NOT happen. Star Trek TOS has ZERO chance of outselling those two films combined. The Star Trek community loves their show, but they are not about to just fork over $200 for a show. Im really surprised that you actually think this. I know, Im one of those fans of the show and I know many of them are MEGA pissed off at the price. Even Trekkers are smart enough to realize at what price they are getting screwed over.

On that note, I do feel Sony is asking too much for the Spiderman Trilogy on bluray.

First I would warn against using comparisons between previous formats and the current HDM war because either you are on the losing side of history or we both are. VHS versus Beta was largely determined by the Porn industry; there are currently five times as many Porn HD DVDs as there are Porn BDs. DVD versus DIVX; Disney and Fox supported DIVX exclusively just like they are supporting Blu-ray exclusively. Ask anyone what DIVX is today and they will probably mention the web-based media player not the failed “value added” format. SACD versus DVD Audio; Sony versus Panasonic and most people don’t know those formats even exist.

You cant compare the two generations exactly alike, I agree with that, but you cant ignore them either. TV on HD is not going to be what moves players of either format off the shelf. Blockbuster titles are what move players off the shelf. You can take that to the bank. Not to mention people realizing what they have with a PS3.


p.s. I still disagree 100% if you think Paramount is going to make more money off of Trekkers who are willing to fork over $217 for TOS remastered than Disney and Sony off of PotC 3 and Spiderman 3.

Typical Blu-spin. If HD DVD sucks so hard, how come all the Blu-boys are jonesing for Uni titles?

This about how silly that statement is. Blu-boys? How's about fan's of MOVIES wanting titles not released on said format?

I am a dual supporter and while I really hoped HD-DVD would win, it's not looking too good. I don't want my statement(s) to spark anything here, this is just MY opinion. After all, it's about movie titles in the end. With Spiderman 3, Pirates 3 and some of the Disney animated titles, it's going to be a tough fight for HD-DVD.

I'll still keep my fingers crossed though.

I understand that some people like them. But I do find it interesting when people trash Sony for putting Blu-ray in the PS3 and not giving people a choice not to by the Blu-ray movie part, while pushing HD DVD as the side with choice since people can buy the XBOX360 add-on or not, when there are many HD DVD discs where consumers aren't given a choice, they are forced to buy the DVD part that many of them don't want, if they want to get the HD DVD part. Combos would be a lot more consumer friendly if they offered both varities from the first day, one without the DVD side and no $5 higher MSRP and then the combo disc.

--Darin
I hear ya, I think combos would be even more consumer friendly if they were priced like SD-DVD and just drop the SD-DVD only releases. I'd own a lot more then just 8 movies then lol. When a movie is 15 to 20.00 it's an impulse buy, When its 30 to 35.00 I tend to think, "do I really want this movie" and I usally walk away empty handed.

Amazon has picked HD-DVD as the top thing for holiday??? WOW!!! I guess that means I should go and pick up an HDDVD player. They have so much more know than all the sites you mentioned.

Actually, they probably DO know a lot more than the blogs, with actual sales volume and as-sold margins being the first data points to consider.

I'll take the market opinion of a sales-based business over that of a blogger or reviewer any day. If the business is successful and growing, it's even more valid; a shrinking business would not normally be expected to be exercising great market judgement. Thus:

Amazon > Wal-Mart > Best Buy > Blockbuster > DigitalBits

Marketing 101.

Can we all just agree that just because a title streets on one format first when the studio has already announced/made clear it will be released on both, that it's not an "exclusive" release to the first format it appears on?

???

Right now HD DVD is the only HDM product that is finished and ready for prime-time. Let the BDA get up to Profile 2.0 and I'll entertain getting a BD Player. I'm simply not interested in paying $500 for the "Privilege" of Beta testing for Sony and the rest of the BDA.

I agree that the BDA has mis-managed this whole thing. Should have had 2.0 from the START. However, keep in mind that as long as you get a player with two video decoders and an ethernet connection... you can *upgrade* that device to 2.0 specs when available. The PS3 is expected to be fully 2.0 compliant when the firmware update is ready.

Can we all just agree that just because a title streets on one format first when the studio has already announced/made clear it will be released on both, that it's not an "exclusive" release to the first format it appears on?

???



I agree that the BDA has mis-managed this whole thing. Should have had 2.0 from the START. However, keep in mind that as long as you get a player with two video decoders and an ethernet connection... you can *upgrade* that device to 2.0 specs when available. The PS3 is expected to be fully 2.0 compliant when the firmware update is ready.How do you know this? I'm just curious.

Paidgeek (the Sony insider at AVS and Blu-ray.com) has said that according to design, the PS3 *should* be fully upgradeable to profile 2.0 specs. It already has the two hardware essentials: dual video decoders and ethernet.

Paidgeek (the Sony insider at AVS and Blu-ray.com) has said that according to design, the PS3 *should* be fully upgradeable to profile 2.0 specs. It already has the two hardware essentials: dual video decoders and ethernet.
Which one, the obsolete 60G or the new 80G (code name: fully compliable)? ;)

I thought all of them. What does the 80 GB version add functionally that existing models don't have?

I thought all of them. What does the 80 GB version add functionally that existing models don't have?

It subtracts functionality by removing hardware support for PS2 games and now uses software emulation.

Paidgeek (the Sony insider at AVS and Blu-ray.com) has said that according to design, the PS3 *should* be fully upgradeable to profile 2.0 specs. It already has the two hardware essentials: dual video decoders and ethernet.

Like you said. Should. But has it even been updated to 1.1 yet. I only ask because its only 2 months away. You would think since it has the requirements they would have gotten this out early, its like a speed limit, 70mph is the highest you can go doesn't mean you can't go lower.

It appears the original topic of this thread has run its course, as several of you have PM'd me to point out.

Topic closed.