I didn't see a thread, so I started this one. Merge me if there is one. We'll look in from San Diego when things get dialed in.

Wendel

My prediction: Great 5.1 audio, good looking HD on low motion but lots of blocking with high motion.

Glad to have you and your production back with us Wendel!

Anyone else think the new Charger unis are hideous? Why didn't they just go back to the old school powder blues? So far the pq is good on WNBC on D*

So far my local station hasn't thrown the switch yet so, only SD for now in Orlando. I'm giving them 5 more minutes before I call.

Watching WRC-DT on Comcast, WBAL-DT on Comcast.

WBAL is showing stretched SD with no 5.1. While I was writing this, it seems to have switched to very piss-poor HD picture with no 5.1.

WRC is showing a rather mediocre looking HD picture (but way, way ahead of WBAL), but it has very good sounding 5.1.

Thanks for joining us again this season, Wendel! The sound is awesome, now we just need to work on the picture!

My prediction: Great 5.1 audio, good looking HD on low motion but lots of blocking with high motion.

Pretty much nails it. High quality HD shots are few and far between. Watching KARE-DT OTA in Minneapolis.

I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but Al Michaels' mic doesn't sound quite right. Madden sounds fine.

No HD in Orlando still. No mention from Al or John about any problems with the HD. It would not surprise me if NBC decided to go cheap and not broadcast in HD. They have been last of all the local channels for HD programming content.

And my local station (WDIV Detroit) just shut off the game for a severe weather alert. :mad:

Missed the touchdown, awesome. At least they have the capability to keep the alerts on the HD channel, so I don't have to watch in SD.

No HD in Orlando on DirecTV. We are in a severe weather alert....would that cause the local not to go HD?

Wein a severe weather alert....would that cause the local not to go HD?
Yep.

I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but Al Michaels' mic doesn't sound quite right. Madden sounds fine.

Agreed.

Game is broadcast in 1080i OTA. It does not look as good as the 720p baseball games. 1080i is not as detailed or deep in picture as 720p.

Why do they broadcast in 1080i?

WNBC in NYC is tolerable (i say that loosely). The audio is great, though i could stand for the LFE and rears to rock a little more especially on some of those Troika wipes, but other than that audio is solid. One of the things I really liked about the new design package is the bombastic John Williams music (all those concert bass drums, cymbal crashes and string basses) and the sound design on the wipes seemed to make for a very dynamic almost cinematic experience, a very nice agressive sound for a football game. It's still very very very solid audio mixing. Makes you realize how bad so much other live TV audio is. Good choice of pop music on the roll outs and bumpers.

This is obviously a very scaled back show, (no skycam and Drew doesn't seem to have his normal complement of handhelds and low endzone cameras). Anything with high motion or detail, including the screen door on the bottom of the Troika score bar are artifacting heavily. Closeups look good as is the big wide shot way up high.

I've never really understood all the criticism for NBC football. Their PQ is right up there with CBS for me most of the time. It's certainly better than Fox and generally better than ESPN too.

I'm watching WRC4 over FiOS in Virginia on a 1080p Samsung.

I've never really understood all the criticism for NBC football. Their PQ is right up there with CBS for me most of the time. It's certainly better than Fox and generally better than ESPN too.

I'm watching WRC4 over FiOS in Virginia on a 1080p Samsung.

It just depends on a number of different variables. The Stanley Cup for me looked atrocious, but most of their dramas look fine (though that's hardly a fair comparison). I understand NBC sends out their backhaul at a very high bitrate, but for whatever reason (judging from the bulk of posters on here most of that information is getting lost somewhere along the line, possibly in New York at the integration point or downstream of that -- though I've seen the raw Sunday Night Football feed from the ND3 truck and it looks stunning) so I dont know. Maybe TVOD has some more info. Same thing happens with ESPN's MNF. Very high quality (practically uncompressed) through the downlink, but then all bets are off after that.

It's certainly better than Fox and generally better than ESPN too.

I'm watching WRC4 over FiOS in Virginia on a 1080p Samsung.
Didn't you see the Colts on FOX thursday? Stunning video & audio here over cable (Ex Adelphia now TW) on WXIX19. :D

Game is broadcast in 1080i OTA. It does not look as good as the 720p baseball games. 1080i is not as detailed or deep in picture as 720p.

Why do they broadcast in 1080i?
What kind of TV you watching? Lemme guess...a 720P set? I have a 1080i 51" CRT RP set and ALL HD looks fabulous. :D

For those in Orlando, I just called the WESH new room and they said the lightning "knock out a bunch of stuff" and they have a team of technicians working on it.

Didn't you see the Colts on FOX thursday? Stunning video & audio here over cable (Ex Adelphia now TW) on WXIX19. :D

YES!!!!

The Colts game on thursday looked better than the Chargers on NBC.

NBC is doing something here. Leno looks better and he is 1080i.

What is going on???

What kind of TV you watching? Lemme guess...a 720P set? I have a 1080i 51" CRT RP set and ALL HD looks fabulous. :D

1080i is inferior to 720p. 1080i sends out 540 lines. 720p sends out 720 lines. You will get better picture in 720p than 1080i.

Don't get me wrong. 1080i HD looks much better than SD. Although Leno in 1080i looks pretty close to 720p. 1080p would be best, but nobody broadcasts 1080p OTA.

annnnnd here we go....

Ok...1080i is not sent out at 540 lines.

And now back to your originally scheduled program.

1080i is inferior to 720p. 1080i sends out 540 lines. 720p sends out 720 lines. You will get better picture in 720p than 1080i.

Don't get me wrong. 1080i HD looks much better than SD. Although Leno in 1080i looks pretty close to 720p. 1080p would be best, but nobody broadcasts 1080p OTA.

Don't want to get off topic and start a huge argument but 1080i is 1080 lines not 540 like you said. Now your equipment may show it improperly as 540p but there is still 1080 lines in the full picture.

For me sports on CBS, NBC and NFLN, all 1080i, have more detail but can have more artifacting. ESPN, ABC and FOX are 720p and too me always look a bit softer but I don't see motion artifacting. But on any given day any broadcast can look great or it can look terrible.

There are too many variables to say which is better, let's leave it at that.

Ok...1080i is not sent out at 540 lines.


1080i is sent out as 540. If not, then what is 1080i sent out as? 1080i takes that 540, then another 540 and tries to build up a picture that uses 1080 lines. 720p sends out 720, then another 720, and it does not need to build up. 720p is perfect from the first 720. In the time it takes 1080i to build 1080 lines, 720p has sent 720 lines twice.

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on the preseason games we've seen so far, how would you rank them on PQ. For me it's been:

1) CBS
2) NFL Network (much improved over last year)
3) ABC (we had a local Vikes game on ABC last Friday)
4) NBC

If there's been a game on FOX or ESPN I missed them.

Didn't you see the Colts on FOX thursday? Stunning video & audio here over cable (Ex Adelphia now TW) on WXIX19. :D

I did not. But I can say that last season every Fox game that I saw over WTTG via FiOS that wasn't the #1 feed was either mediocre or outright crap, and the first two rounds of playoffs on Fox were unbelievably bad. I think there was a thread filled with outrage over Fox's playoff coverage, which was only heightened after they blew us all away with an amazing broadcast of the BCS Championship.

To sum up, Fox is always hit or miss for me.

I'm curious as to people's thoughts on the preseason games we've seen so far, how would you rank them on PQ. For me it's been:

1) CBS
2) NFL Network (much improved over last year)
3) ABC (we had a local Vikes game on ABC last Friday)
4) NBC

If there's been a game on FOX or ESPN I missed them.

FOX had a game a few days ago, and ESPN's is tomorrow night so perhaps this should wait. By the way one preseason game cannot be indicative of an entire season.

FOX had a game a few days ago, and ESPN's is tomorrow night so perhaps this should wait. By the way one preseason game cannot be indicative of an entire season.

Agreed.

Anything with high motion or detail, including the screen door on the bottom of the Troika score bar are artifacting heavily.

I still can't believe they have that effect on the score bar, I would have thought it would have been removed this year as it has to be tough on the encoder. Put that detail in the main picture and we'd be much happier.

1080i is sent out as 540. If not, then what is 1080i sent out as?
Maybe 1080i???

Only second game I've watched. While NBC is not perfect, it is much better than last year when every movement involved breakdown. Tonight, it only seems to do so on a few closeups and camera switches. But the picture is still a bit screen-doorlike.

Still, a lot more watchable than last year.

I really really wish every discussion didn't end with 1080i vs 720p arguments, especially with folks that don't actually understand the technology and re-quote misinformation.

That said..

I don't know what NBC does differently than CBS... but they both use 1080i and I consistently find the CBS broadcasts to be superior to NBC. Same is true for the college football as well, which I noticed prior to NBC winning the rights to Sunday Night Football last year.

Primetime shows on both networks (say Law & Order vs NCIS) are comparable quality... so I have to think something is done differently with NBC vs CBS in how they handle their live HD broadcasts.

I find the Football Night in America studio show (last seen during the regular season last year) on NBC to be of high quality... so it must not just be the uplink/processing of NBC's transmission and distribution to affiliates. There must be something different about their mobile cameras and/or trucks at the game than what CBS does... but I can't put my finger on it.

I still can't believe they have that effect on the score bar, I would have thought it would have been removed this year as it has to be tough on the encoder. Put that detail in the main picture and we'd be much happier.
It's such an amazingly stupid move, I was also quite shocked to see it back again this year.

1080i is sent out as 540. If not, then what is 1080i sent out as? 1080i takes that 540, then another 540 and tries to build up a picture that uses 1080 lines. 720p sends out 720, then another 720, and it does not need to build up. 720p is perfect from the first 720. In the time it takes 1080i to build 1080 lines, 720p has sent 720 lines twice.Video has two dimensions - horizontal and vertical. The horizontal pixel count for 720p is 1280 while it can be up to 1920 pixels for 1080. Vertical resolution can drop to 50% in interlaced systems on areas with motion, but anything moving with significant speed will be softened by motion blur in either system. Worse case vertical resolution drop for 1080i is still 75% of 720P. Horizontal resolution is not affected by interlace.

The last time there was a poll thread regarding 720P vs 1080i, the latter won handedly.

There is no argument...If 1080i was really 540 then that is what it would be called. Just like 720p is called 720p for a reason and not another number. Thing that gets me is using doogiehowser's logic then 480i (standard definition) is really 240p...Ridiculous huh? ;)

I don't know what NBC does differently than CBS... but they both use 1080i and I consistently find the CBS broadcasts to be superior to NBC. Same is true for the college football as well, which I noticed prior to NBC winning the rights to Sunday Night Football last year.

Primetime shows on both networks (say Law & Order vs NCIS) are comparable quality... so I have to think something is done differently with NBC vs CBS in how they handle their live HD broadcasts.

I find the Football Night in America studio show (last seen during the regular season last year) on NBC to be of high quality... so it must not just be the uplink/processing of NBC's transmission and distribution to affiliates. There must be something different about their mobile cameras and/or trucks at the game than what CBS does... but I can't put my finger on it.The equipment that is used is rented, and the NEP truck that NBC uses for SNF is using the highest quality Sony 1500 cameras. This is why it looks so good when there is minimal motion, However, CBS uses full transponders for their network distribution at high bitrates. Also many NBC stations including the ones they directly own are broadcasting subchannels.

WMC OTA, 2 subs. Terrible blocking if someone moves. In the studio if one of the analysts even moves his arm the suit changes color and blocks up.

You will see why.....All but the beginning and ending 30 seconds was during gameplay.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3158/snap1ry5.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snap1ry5.jpg)

Nice job KCRA. The game looked good. Too bad other stations cannot set up their encoders as well as you.

I really really wish every discussion didn't end with 1080i vs 720p arguments, especially with folks that don't actually understand the technology and re-quote misinformation.Ain't that the truth.

1080i is inferior to 720p. 1080i sends out 540 lines. 720p sends out 720 lines. You will get better picture in 720p than 1080i.

Don't get me wrong. 1080i HD looks much better than SD. Although Leno in 1080i looks pretty close to 720p. 1080p would be best, but nobody broadcasts 1080p OTA.

You need to spend a lot more time reading up on the forums.

I don't know what NBC does differently than CBS...The backhaul is the issue.

1080i is sent out as 540. If not, then what is 1080i sent out as? 1080i takes that 540, then another 540 and tries to build up a picture that uses 1080 lines. 720p sends out 720, then another 720, and it does not need to build up. 720p is perfect from the first 720. In the time it takes 1080i to build 1080 lines, 720p has sent 720 lines twice.?

Do not post incorrect information.

All I know is that, as usual, the NBC Football broadcast looks terrible during the action of the game. The reasons why, I leave to the experts. But this is nowhere near as good as CBS, or even FOX.

1080i is not as detailed or deep in picture as 720p. ?

Do not post incorrect information.

Wow - a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Wow - a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing.
Yikes.

The backhaul is the issue.
What do they use?

I hate KING-DT and KONG-DT in Seattle. That is all.

Watched it via OTA antenna on WMGT in Macon Georgia. Looked outstanding on my calibrated Sony 50" A2000 SXRD.

?

Do not post incorrect information.


Ken with all due respect and Believe me you have my respect someones view on the 1080i vs 720p (as to the detail of each) debate is just that, their view.

I would have to read the forum rules but i do believe we are allowed to voice our opinion in the appropriate thread about a subject.

It could be argued that this might not be the correct thread to rehash the 1080i vs 720p debate but i believe in this particular case your response was not warranted.

Having said that Im in the 1080i camp at least with my equipment.

You can debate your preference (although, you're correct that this wouldn't be the thread for that discussion), but you can't post incorrect information repeatedly that will only serve to confuse other members.

Ken with all due respect and Believe me you have my respect someones view on the 1080i vs 720p (as to the detail of each) debate is just that, their view.

I would have to read the forum rules but i do believe we are allowed to voice our opinion in the appropriate thread about a subject.

It could be argued that this might not be the correct thread to rehash the 1080i vs 720p debate but i believe in this particular case your response was not warranted.

Having said that Im in the 1080i camp at least with my equipment.
Yes, everyone has their right to an opinion, but a line must be drawn when the information presented is factually inaccurate.

Nice job KCRA. The game looked good. Too bad other stations cannot set up their encoders as well as you.According to TitanTV, there are no subchannels. You're lucky not to be living where the NBC station is an O&O. I'm surprised to see that KOVR, a CBS O&O, does have a subchannel. It looks to be their SD channel, possibly for distribution to cable and sat companies.

Looked very good in DC OTA on WRCDT. Looked less good on WRCDT via D* in MPEG4. Fast motion caused some blocking via MPEG4 but very little OTA. And, as usual, the DD5.1 was superb.

One can make the following arguments in favor of 720P:

Progressive systems encode with better efficiency, so stations not utilizing their full bandwidth for the HD channel will have less blocking artifacts with 720P. In terms of the difference in horizontal detail, the images from most live events are using cameras with 1920 horizontal pixels which are scaled internally to 1280. As the individual CCD sensor elements have an averaging effect across their light gathering area there is a gradual high frequency rolloff. Because the cameras are essentially using oversampling with the higher than native resolution sensors, the depth of modulation in the higher frequencies is improved for the 1280 pixels (compared to a native 1280 pixel camera). Much of the perception of sharpness doesn't really come from the highest frequencies but rather the upper mids. 1280 pixels can preserve much of the perception of sharpness from a 1920 pixel sensor. Also add in that many tape and file formats used for acquisition and playout are limited to 1440 pixels, so the upper frequency advantage of 1080i is diminished.

Static vertical resolution in live cameras is also reduced due to the pixel grouping scheme normally used. The common approach is that the target row overlaps the rows above and below (which are on the opposite field) by 50%. This is necessary to reduce aliasing within a field during movement and to reduce stairstepping on diagonals.

The visibility of the reduction in vertical resolution during motion on an interlaced system is somewhat dependent on the source material. Where I've noticed it the most is in situations where fine horizontal lines are present such as on a basketball court. They can appear more jagged with camera movement than in a progressive system.

Now a word for 1080i:

A drawback for 720P in live cameras is that there is a loss in sensitivity compared to interlace mode. This is due to previously mentioned interlace CCD pixel grouping scheme. While it does have the disadvantage of lowering the vertical resolution, it also has the benefit of enlarging the target pixel which can double the camera sensitivity. In low light situations this can improve camera focus due to the increased depth of focus from a f stop reduction, and/or reduce the amount of electronic noise. MPEG encoders do not like noise very much, and can cause further problems downstream with subsequent re-encodes.

My own feeling is that 1080i tends to look sharper, but is more prone to degradation with distribution. This doesn't mean that 720P is immune to these problems. There seems to have many complaints about ESPN HD in this regard. Of course this can also be an issue with the providers too. The bottom line is that while both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, both have shown good results. Overall I think 1080i is better because it has the potential for better horizontal and vertical resolution on 24P material.

Of course there is one other element to consider - the home display. Images will usually look better when displayed in the their native resolution compared to being scaled for another. De-interlacers also vary in quality.

Usually a verbose post like this is a thread killer :D

Here in Portland OR, just like last year, announcements by the officials are just about inaudible.

I think it is because the officials voice comes over the surround speakers and the sound level of those is much lower than the center speaker.

The picture quality, however, is excellent.

Station: KGW, over-the-air.

Usually a verbose post like this is a thread killer :D

And unfortunately wont stop some people from posting more misguided info about 720p vs. 1080i when someone inevitably complains about Monday Night Football tonight on ESPN.