First, a few facts:


The aspect ratio of HDTV is 16:9
Most DVD Recorders only record 4:3
All DVD Recorders record in 480i

So how do you get the best recordings of HDTV content?

My current DVD Recorder is like most, it can only record 4:3. This is fine for recording SD content which is also 4:3. It records all 480 horizontal lines of the picture. But when I record HD content (16:9), I have to make sure the output from my HD DVR adds black bars at the top and bottom (letterbox). My DVD still records 480 horizontal lines, but it records the following:


60 horizontal lines of the top black bar
360 horizontal lines of the ACTUAL PICTURE
60 horizontal lines of the bottom black bar

As you can see, recording 120 horizontal lines of black bars is a waste!

When these DVDs are played back on a standard TV (4:3), they look fine with the black bars on the top and bottom. But when I play them back on my widescreen TV, I get black bars completely around the picture (top, bottom, left, and right). I have to use the "Zoom" feature on the TV to remove the bars, but this really reduces the picture quality!

I just ordered a DVD Recorder which allows you to set the input to 16:9 (but only on DVD-R and DVD-RW). This allows you to record a DVD in "anamorphic widescreen" (see Wikipedia for a good explanation). When I play an "anamorphic widescreen" DVD, it completely fills my widescreen TV. I don't have to use the "Zoom" feature on the TV which means the picture quality looks better.

NOTE: If an "anamorphic widescreen" DVD is played back on a standard TV (4:3), the DVD player automatically adds the necessary black bars at the top and bottom.

So if you have HDTV and a widescreen TV, I highly recommend looking for a DVD Recorder that can record in 16:9 (not just output in 16:9).

By the way, I ordered the Toshiba D-R550.

Thanks for re-summarizing the first sticky at the top of this forum...

Thanks for re-summarizing the first sticky at the top of this forum...
The first sticky has much of the same information, but not much about:

DVD Recorders capable of recording the "input" at 16:9 using Anamorphic Widescreen.

I wanted to find a recorder with this feature but I had a tough time finding the information in this forum.

I don't think you correctly understand the problem yet.

It's not a function of the recorder to record 16:9 anamorphic format. Rather, it's a function of the video source to provide 16:9 anamorphic format.

Current SD recorders can only record a 4:3 frame. If the video source provides a letterboxed 16:9 picture embedded in a 4:3 frame, that's what the recorder will record (the situation you mentioned above where you get wasted lines of black letterbox recorded). If the video source provides an "anamorphic" 16:9 picture, i.e., horizontally squeezed into a 4:3 frame, that's what the recorder will record. The latter is preferred because it doesn't waste any of the available recording resolution, and it can be stretched back to 16:9 proportions on playback. But it's not a function of the recorder - it's only recording what the source provides.

Now, there is an anamorphic flag provided in the standard DVD format spec that tells a DVD player that the recording is anamorphic, so that it can automatically select how to play it back depending on whether you have selected 16:9, 4:3 P&S or 4:3 letterbox output on the DVD player. Most DVD recorders don't set that flag, since they don't know when they are recording an anamorphic picture. But the flag is just a convenience, since you can manually stretch the picture on playback.

SrLANGuy - I believe your logic may be a bit flawed. The Toshiba isn't going to allow you to do what you propose. It is not going to eliminate the letterboxing you see on your recordings. Neither the correct 4:3 letterboxing nor the letterboxing you see on a widescreen television. It will allow for proper playback on a 4:3 television if the recording was full widescreen. It will have no impact when the recording is played back on a 16x9 television.

The Toshiba is going to set the 16x9 widescreen flag. What this means is that for full widescreen recordings (16x9 no letterboxing) a flag is set to allow for proper anamorphic playback on a 4:3 television - meaning it will be letterboxed.

Setting this flag is not going to eliminate letterboxing on a 16x9 television. This letterboxing is supplied by your source STB. Typically because you are using its svideo or composite outputs.

The easiest way to explain this is that DVD recorders record what ever you send to them. If the image is letterboxed on a widescreen television then that's what is going to be recorded. The key is to adjust your source STB to provide a full widescreen non letterboxed image. Some are able to do this using svideo or composite outputs of their STB. Others are not so lucky and then have to use the component output of the STB for a full widescreen image.

The Toshiba will set the flag for proper playback on a 4:3 television. But your original recording has to be full widescreen to begin with. If you set the flag on a recording that is not full widescreen you will actually get double letterboxing. The original recorded letterboxing and then the additional letterboxing added because the flag was set (on a 4:3 television).

Setting the 16x9 flag on the Toshiba will not adjust your source STB for letterbox free 16x9 playback.

Confusing as heck because terms have different meanings depending on how they are used.

As I believe sivartk posted almost a year ago "It's all about the source".

Others are not so lucky and then have to use the component output of the STB for a full widescreen image.
And others can't even do that. My Motorola/Comcast DVR-3412 letterboxes 480i via component output as well. The only way to get anamorphic 16:9 video from Motorola DVRs is via Firewire capture to D-VHS or a computer and then re-encoding to video DVD.

HealeyGuy, I posted in another thread on an audio issue that either you or Budget_HT had explained before. It was about setting an STB for narrow or wide and using coax to prevent lower sound thru the tuner vs playing DVDs, etc.

If it was you, here's my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11293217#post11293217) that maybe you'd be interested in adding to or correcting???

HealeyGuy. That's a good point. I forgot that some STBs won't do 480i via component.

Doing what you suggest is an option. A couple other options might be using a scaler to convert the HD to 480i. Unfortunately the scaler is a bit pricey. Also a zero cost option might be to record from the video/audio outputs of the television (if available) and let the television do the HD -> SD scaling. I've tried this and it works fine.

i use 2 sa8000hd stbs. they and the sa8300hd provide a stretch mode thru s video (not sure about composite), to output a squeezed. downrezzed formerly hd image (480i)to my toshiba dr2. the dr2 can also be set to record a 16x9 or 4x3 image but the stb stretch mode must be set for widescreen anamorphic dvd-rs. copy protection issues may also be encountered. the sa hd stbs must also be reset to sd, as opposed to hd, to do all this. other stbs may not have a 'stretch' mode available. it took me 6 months before i realized this gear had anamorphic w/s capabilities. good luck to all!

westgate - what you have been describing with your SA8300HD is only possible for those that are running SARA software. It is not possible for the SA8300HD running Passport. It is a nice trick and very useful but applies to only a subset of the SA8300HDs out there.

That being said I still prefer to go the component out route. For one simple reason. When I'm recording something widescreen I am able to watch it widescreen instead of having to watch a squeezed image. For example the Super Bowl. I like being able to watch the event in widescreen and record it in widescreen at the same time. In real time.

But the "squeezing the image" approach still provides a viable and execllent way to offload HD DVR content.

Whenever I've seen the "widescreen flag" described, it's always in terms of its effect of playback on a 4:3 set. That is, if the flag is set, the player either squishes the image vertically and adds letterbox bars at top and bottom, or crops off the sides of the image (a.k.a. pan & scan), depending on how the user has set up the player. If the flag is not set, the player simply outputs the image "as is."

I know there are at least some upconverting DVD players that do something similar with playback on a 16:9 set. The Oppo players have a WIDE/SQZ mode that works as follows for output in HD resolutions: If the widescreen flag is set, the player fills the entire (16:9) frame with the image; if the flag is not set, the player outputs the image in pillarbox mode with blank bars on the sides.

Is this common on upconverting DVD players?

Are there any non-upconverting players that do something similar? None of my players do (Philips DVP-642, Panasonic DMR-E85H and DMR-EH75V), at least not with my TV (Panasonic TC-32LX50 LCD).

I don't think you correctly understand the problem yet.

It's not a function of the recorder to record 16:9 anamorphic format. Rather, it's a function of the video source to provide 16:9 anamorphic format.

Current SD recorders can only record a 4:3 frame. I think a lot of people get confused when considering this problem. I think part of the reason is because we like to describe it in terms of screen ratios which is misleading. DVD recorders don't record in 4:3 or 16:9. They record in 720x480 pixels (the same resolution as a commercial DVD), which has an aspect ratio of 1.5 -- between the 1.33 of 4:3 and the 1.78 of 16:9. As many people have enumerated many times, what the recorder records in those 720x480 pixels depends on what the source sends them. The best scenario is when the source sends a full 720x480 frame of data, and the DVD recorder can interpret the data to assign the proper flag to set playback screen ratio -- either 4:3 or or 16:9. The rest is then up to the playback circuitry of the player to either squash the 720x480 into 4:3 or expand it to 16:9.

When you look at it this way it seems easier to understand (for me at least) what kind of trouble you are in trying to get your cable box to send out the right signal through the S-video output.

Clap! Clap! Well said. There is always the person who blames the DVD recorder, and someone tries to explain it is the source, but this is the clearest explanation of the issue in a long time. At least, it's clear to me. I know, there are people who think in different ways, but that speaks to me.

Clap! Clap! as well.

I've always looked upon it as WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get. But when interjecting the 16x9 widescreen flag into the discussion many people get confused.

There are too mutually exclusive issues to address.

The first issue is on the recording side. Again this is (in my case) the WYSIWYG side of the equation. My recorder will record what I send to it. If I send it no letterboxing then letterboxing does not get recorded. "It's all about the source".

The second issue is on the playback side. This is where the 16x9 widescreen flag comes into play. And I believe much of the confusion. By setting the flag (Toshiba XS55 in my case) to 16x9 the full widescreen recording (from the first issue above) will now play back properly on a 4:3 display. That's all the flag does in my experience.

Again these two issues are mutually exclusive.

Any of these recordings whether with artifically introduced letterboxing or without letterboxing are 720x480. The only real thing going on here in my mind is trying to get the appropriately sized (shaped) image without artificially introduced letterboxing (or distortion) to record correctly and play back correctly on either a 4:3 or 16x9 display.

Many people are no longer worried about setting the flag because they no longer use 4:3 televisions. In this case only issue one from above comes into play.

I'm going to take another stab at this using a link I've used in the past. A picture is worth a thousand words. Plus I've been screwing around with this issue for about a year and seems like it is actually becoming more difficult to explain as new posters become involved. Hopefully this will help.

My setup is the following:

1. SA8300HD (Passport) -> Polaroid 2001G -> HD LCD TV (component video path)

2. SA8300HD (Passport) -> Polaroid 2001G -> Toshiba XS55 -> HD LCD TV ( this path is component to the Polaroid then svideo to the Toshiba then HDMI to the HD LCD TV)

It's the same SA8300HD and Polaroid in both examples. I just used the svideo output of the Polaroid to the Toshiba to add an additional recorder and path to the TV.

Using this link as a guide:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

When recording using the number one example above the results are the top and bottom pictures in the right column. The recording is done by the Polaroid. Because the Polaroid has component inputs I am able to view and record the image in the right column bottom picture when using a widescreen display. But because the Polaroid cannot set the 16x9 flag the image on a 4:3 display appears as the pic in the right hand column top pic. No flag = no letterboxing on a 4:3 display. But the recording appears as the bottom right pic on a 16x9 display - perfect. Stunning actually.

When recording using the number two example above the results are the middle and bottom pictures in the right hand column. The recording is done on the Toshiba. The component output from the SA8300HD is converted to svideo by the Polaroid and then fed to the Toshiba - the Toshiba does not have component inputs so a conversion from component to svideo is required for a full widescreen image (sans artificial letterboxing). The result is the full widescreen image depicted in the right hand column bottom picture when both viewing or recording. Because the Toshiba can set the 16x9 flag (as a recording option) the middle pic in the right hand column is the result on a 4:3 display. Perfect for both 16x9 and 4:3 playback.

What the OP was reporting is what the left hand column bottom pic shows. This is the least desirable because the image has to be zoomed with a loss in PQ the result. Changing recorders isn't going to change anything unless the new recorder has component inputs and the STB can output full screen via component at 480i. Most can some can't.

The "squeeze method" is also a way to accomplish this. Some STBs allow you output a squeezed widescreen image via svideo and then stretch it using the TV. Component inputs on a DVD recorder are not required. This works great if you have the right STB to accomplish "the squeeze". I think the best way to depict this is using the top pic in the right hand column (but on a 16x9 display but still squeezed). The squeezed image will appear normal when viewed on a 16x9 screen set to stretch or widescreen (bottom right). Works great if you have the right STB. I have never done this so I'm not the best to speak to it. But the reports of it's success are accurate.

Setting this flag is not going to eliminate letterboxing on a 16x9 television. This letterboxing is supplied by your source STB. Typically because you are using its svideo or composite outputs.
My STB is the DirecTV HR20 which I have connected to my TV using Component video and to my current DVD Recorder using Composite video. The HR20 is capable of outputting HD (1080i or 720p) over the Component video connection while simultaneously outputting SD (480i) over the Composite video connection. If I view an HD channel through my current DVD Recorder, I see a 4:3 picture containing the 16:9 program stretched from top to bottom (no black bars). Since my current DVD Recorder can't set the anamorphic flag, I have to change the setting on my HR20 to add the black bars at the top and bottom. I'm hoping that with the new DVD Recorder, I won't have to change the HR20 setting. Instead, I can tell the DVD Recorder to record 16:9 and have it set the anamorphic flag. This should produce an "anamorphic widescreen" DVD (similar to the DVD movies you buy at the store).

I should find out tonight since my new Toshiba D-R550 is scheduled to be delivered today.

The "squeeze method" is also a way to accomplish this. Some STBs allow you output a squeezed widescreen image via svideo and then stretch it using the TV.
My DirecTV HR20 allows me to do this using Composite video! It outputs HD (1080i or 720p) over the Component video connection while simultaneously outputting SD (480i) over the Composite video connection. When the HR20 is set to output widescreen (16:9), everything looks fine on my widescreen TV via the Component connection. Without making any changes on the HR20, the 480i signal going to my DVD Recorder is the squeezed widescreen image (no black bars). I'm hoping that with the new DVD Recorder, I can record the 480i signal and have it set the anamorphic flag.

SrLANGuy - You should be good to go then. Your STB is capable of doing the squeeze thing via svideo and composite (squeeze, squish, what ever it is called). The Toshiba will set the flag which will introduce electronic letterboxing when played back on a 4:3 TV. Your 16x9 TV will playback full screen.

You should try recording this squeezed image with your current recorder. You should find that playback on your widescreen TV will be full widescreen - not letterboxed. Again setting the 16x9 flag with the Toshiba will only introduce electronically generated letterboxing on a 4:3 TV. Good luck!

The Panasonic will also set the flag properly when using RAM disks.

You should try recording this squeezed image with your current recorder. You should find that playback on your widescreen TV will be full widescreen - not letterboxed.
I believe when I playback this type of DVD on my current DVD Recorder, my widescreen TV automatically detects it as 4:3 (although I can manually change the setting on my TV to stretch it horizontally). But when I playback anamorphic DVDs, my TV automatically switches to full widescreen.

I really want my DVDs to playback properly on both widescreen TVs and standard 4:3 TVs, so creating anamorphic widescreen DVDs should be the answer.

The Toshiba D-R550 that I just ordered can only set the anamorphic widescreen flag on DVD-R and DVD-RW media. Are there other DVD Recorders that can set this flag on DVD+R and DVD+RW media? Just curious!

It might just do the trick. Not sure. Everybody's gear is a bit different and combinations of such perform in their own way. I do remember reading that when using the squeeze method you have to set the TV to widescreen. It would be interesting to find out if setting the flag would make this automatic.

The Toshiba D-R550 that I just ordered can only set the anamorphic widescreen flag on DVD-R and DVD-RW media. Are there other DVD Recorders that can set this flag on DVD+R and DVD+RW media? Just curious!

I don't believe so. Toshiba has historically only supported -R -RW and Ram media. The only other possibility might be Sony. But I don't know enough about Sony to comment.

With my Toshiba XS55,I can select input 4:3 or 16:9.Then after a recording,I can select the output either 4:3 or 16:9 onto the disk.Yes it's 480i but it still looks good on both 4:3 and 16:9.

The Toshiba D-R550 that I just ordered can only set the anamorphic widescreen flag on DVD-R and DVD-RW media. Are there other DVD Recorders that can set this flag on DVD+R and DVD+RW media? Just curious!

Good to know. I'm looking for the same feature, and use "-" R media mostly anyway. One thing I'm wondering...is the anamorphic flag an "automatic" feature (in other words does it detect the incoming signal type), or is it a manual setting you can force? I prefer a manual setting.

Do you happen to know if the D-R400 can set the anamorphic flag too (same unit without tuner feature)? It's way easier to find locally than the 550.

Thanks,
m

One thing I'm wondering...is the anamorphic flag an "automatic" feature (in other words does it detect the incoming signal type), or is it a manual setting you can force? I prefer a manual setting.
I downloaded the user's manual last week and it shows it as a manual setting in the menus (Input --> 4:3 or 16:9). I just picked it up from UPS today and will hook it up tonight. I'll confirm and post another reply tomorrow.

I downloaded the user's manual last week and it shows it as a manual setting in the menus (Input --> 4:3 or 16:9). I just picked it up from UPS today and will hook it up tonight. I'll confirm and post another reply tomorrow.

Based on what spiderhole reported I think you're going to be good. spiderhole sets the flag on a pc (ifoedit I'm guessing) and reburns. With the flag set on the newly burned disc it plays back without having to set the TV to widescreen. Does it automatically.

Looking good.

Here's a funny question- if you setup an anamorphic recording on a dvd with the appropriate flag, set up your menu screens, and finalize it, what do the menus look like in playback mode? Do the menu screens still occupy a 4:3 aspect? When shown on a 16:9 display, does the menu screen appear with pillar box on the sides or does it take on a "stretched" appearance to fill the screen? Does the dvd player just presume the menu screens will always be 4:3, but then automatically apply the correct scaling for the anamorphic main feature?

Expect a standard 4:3 menu with thumbnail images likely to be vertically stretched to fill the 4:3 thumbnail box.

Edit: As nextoo shows below, my expectation is wrong for Toshiba. It may only be true for my old Pioneer.

My experience is that the title and chapter menues will fill the entire screen - no pillar baxes. The two pics below show both title and chapter menues created on a Toshiba XS54 recorder. The 16x9 flag was set and the menues fill the screen.

By the way this is also a good example of what the Toshiba XS series can do. Notice the custom backrounds. And the custom title and chapter thumbnails. It is a very simple process to accomplish this and adds a significant number of creative options when creating menues. As opposed to "stock" options on most other DVD recorders.

The bowing you see is a result of the camera. Also the movie shots show letteroxing because of it viewed and recorded in its original aspect ratio.

Wow! That's pretty trick!

Well, my Toshiba D-R550 DVD Recorder finally arrived!

Here's how my HD DVR and my new DVD Recorder are connected to my TV:

DirecTV HR20 DVR S-Video --> Toshiba D-R550 DVD Recorder Composite Video --> Integra A/V Receiver Component Video --> Sony 50" Grand Wega TV

DirecTV HR20 DVR Component Video --> Integra A/V Receiver Component Video --> Sony 50" Grand Wega TV

NOTE: The DVD Recorder is currently connected to my A/V Receiver using Composite video do to a shortage of Component video ports.

I recorded a couple of DVD-R discs and it worked great. I left my HD DVR set to "Widescreen 16:9" and "1080i". Due to the S-Video connection, the DVD Recorder only receives a 480i signal (not 1080i) from the HD DVR. This is the "squeezed widescreen image" (16:9 image squeezed into a 4:3 frame). On the DVD Recorder, I had to choose the following setting:

General Setting --> Recording --> Aspect Ratio (Video mode) --> 16:9

Once I finalized the disc, I played it back on my PS3. The title screen appeared in 4:3. Once I started playback of the recorded show, it automatically switched to widescreen 16:9 (no black bars). When I went back to the Top Menu, it switched back to 4:3.

I had my cousin test the DVD on his DVD player and standard TV (4:3). The title screen appeared in 4:3, filling his entire TV screen. Once I started playback of the recorded show, it automatically switched to letterboxed. When he went back to the Top Menu, it switched back to filling his screen.

And by the way, the recorded show looks great when played back on my widescreen TV (no black bars & no "zoom" necessary).

I downloaded the user's manual last week and it shows it as a manual setting in the menus (Input --> 4:3 or 16:9). I just picked it up from UPS today and will hook it up tonight. I'll confirm and post another reply tomorrow.

i use the sa8000hd(sara) to squeeze downrezzed hd signal (480i), out thru s video, into toshiba dr2. i have to set RECORD MENU to 16x9 as opposed to 4x3 to achieve fully anamorphic w/s dvd-rs. these discs will play properly on both w/s or 4x3 (w/ letterboxes) tvs. i dont know if this is much help for your new machine.

westgate - what you have been describing with your SA8300HD is only possible for those that are running SARA software. It is not possible for the SA8300HD running Passport. It is a nice trick and very useful but applies to only a subset of the SA8300HDs out there.

That being said I still prefer to go the component out route. For one simple reason. When I'm recording something widescreen I am able to watch it widescreen instead of having to watch a squeezed image. For example the Super Bowl. I like being able to watch the event in widescreen and record it in widescreen at the same time. In real time.

But the "squeezing the image" approach still provides a viable and execllent way to offload HD DVR content.
thanks for the SARA info. im totally clueless on stb software.