I bought 2 Panny DVDRs with hard drives a couple of years ago and we have been very happy with both (one for me, one for the wife). My son wants to buy one now but I can't find DVDRs with hard drives any more.

1. The sales guy at Best Buy said they stopped carrying DVDRs with hard drives since they did not sell and most folks get cable boxes with hard drives. They can copy from their cable box HDD to plain DVDRs without a HDD. Is this right? I thought there were problems copying stuff from cable box HDDs to DVDs in an external DVDR.

2. So now my son has to buy a DVDR without a HDD. Reading reviews of the Panny DMR EZ47K (with VCR) and EZ27K (without VCR), they apparently have a freezing problem which has to be reset periodically. I need some help in finding a good DVDR for my son. My son wants HDMI out plus a analog/digital tuner if possible. Any good experiences out there with the new model DVDR drives with or without a HDD?

Thanks,
Skylark

Tell him to check Circuit City. There may still be a hdd based Panasonic E75 available. It's their last hdd model )and no digital tuner), and while there are 3 others-one from Polaroid and the other from Phillips, the reviews have been less than wonderful for the Polaroid.

And yes, connecting the cable box to the dvd rec, you cn rcord cable box channels on the units' line imput. Some pay channels may feature copy once, or copy protection signals on some movies. You won't know until you try and record.

The sales guy at Best Buy said they stopped carrying DVDRs with hard drives since they did not sell and most folks get cable boxes with hard drives.

Thanks,
Skylark

That will be a good enough reason when you can edit your content from the HDD in the cable box. Then, you can transfer your commercial free titles (or whatever else you may want to edit) to your Non-HDD DVD Recorder and make your discs that way.

Before I purchased my first HDD DVD Recorder (Pioneer 640) I had two Toshiba Units (DR-1, and DR-2). What I had to do (to get something commercial free) was record on one using DVD-Ram (which allows you to edit), edit my content, and then transfer it to DVD-R on the second unit. A Recorder with a HDD allows you to do that all within the same device.

So in addition to my first comment about Cable Boxes (with HDD's) needing to allow you to edit content, they would ALSO need a DVD Drive in them so you can transfer your edited content to DVD in the Cable Box.

Whether or not that ever happens has yet to be seen, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Tell him to check Circuit City. There may still be a hdd based Panasonic E75 available. It's their last hdd model )and no digital tuner), and while there are 3 others-one from Polaroid and the other from Phillips, the reviews have been less than wonderful for the Polaroid.

And yes, connecting the cable box to the dvd rec, you cn rcord cable box channels on the units' line imput. Some pay channels may feature copy once, or copy protection signals on some movies. You won't know until you try and record.

The model # to look for with the hdd s/b EH75.

The model # to look for with the hdd s/b EH75.Or, even more precisely - DMR-EH75V or DMR-EH75VS :).

Can't find the Panny DMR-EH75V. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Skylark

You won't find the EH-75V on line. You have to travel to a nearby CC to see if they have 1 on the shelf. I have seen them recently.

I have the EZ-17K (black) and I have not experienced the "freezing" problem, but then I have not used it a huge amount. I use it as a digital tuner for Comcast clear QAM on the SD analog TV in my office at home, and it works great. The digital channels take about 2-3 seconds to tune in, but that's how long it takes my Mits RP HDTV to tune them in as well.

Programs on digital channels look very good recorded at LP (4-hr) mode, even on my Mits, although you can see some digital artifacts, especially with fast action.

I'm happy with mine. If you are interested, check out the Best Buy Outlet store on eBay. I got mine for $76 plus S&H + tax (about $98 total). It had all the accessories and was in near mint condition.

Good luck.

Try the Philips 3575 with 160GB HDD at Wal-mart and also soon-to-be Circuit City. For what you need it to do, the line input is fine and it makes very nice recordings. With the current firmware the unit has problems with DTV channel memory (both OTA and QAM) but is otherwise very acceptable for the money. You can read all about it in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=830253

I did a quick summary of pros and cons in post 1451...pg. 49.

You might check places like overstock.com, amazon.com or even ebay, all for older models of DVDRs. I got an extra Pioneer 531H from Overstock. I was going to store the back up machine away to pull out when my current one dies (in the far, far future, I hope!), but pulled it out to use to record things when my regular 531H is already committed (i.e., when there are two things on at the same time that I really want to keep and don't trust the Comcast DVR to get without a glitch/freeze/pixilation).

Try the Philips 3575 with 160GB HDD at Wal-mart and also soon-to-be Circuit City. ...
I have been researching HDD DVDRs for about eight months and the Philips unit does seem to be head and shoulders above the rest: although not perfect, it does seem to be very good for most people and customer service is light years beyond the others available during this time (Polaroid and RCA).

It is already available from Circuit City but they do not currently offer free shipping site to store since they do not carry it in the stores (online only). The CC return period is 30 days, not the 90 days allowed at Wal-Mart (who will ship for free from site to store). The product is already on back order at CC, after just a few days of availability, so it is proving popular it would seem (already rare in many Wal-Mart stores also).

- CC price is now $279 + $3.99 shipping.
- Wal-Mart price is still $298.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Hard-Disk-DVD-Recorder-DVDR3575H/sem/rpsm/oid/186585/catOid/-12872/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5663214

The Polaroid DRA-01601A (also mentioned in another post above) at Wal-Mart has been reduced from $258 to $238 but after reading that thread, I would still prefer the Philips.

The product is already on back order at CC, after just a few days of availability, so it is proving popular it would seem (already rare in many Wal-Mart stores also). There never seemed to be many units in the stores from the very beginning. I wonder if it is really a case of popular or just in limited distribution.

There never seemed to be many units in the stores from the very beginning. I wonder if it is really a case of popular or just in limited distribution.
It may be a bit of both, but still, when you read the trouble some AVS members (not your typical customer, of course) went to so that they could get their units, not to mention the shortcomings some are prepared to live with on mediocre units (such as the RCA DRC8030N, the Polaroid DRM-2001G and DRA-01601A), there is definitely a market that is not being taken seriously by manufacturers IMO.

Thanks folks for all your replies. The local Circuit City said they sold their last Panny E75 about 2 months ago and do not/will not stock DVDRs with HDDs for the forseeable future. This includes "any" brand, not just Panasonics.

After doing more checking, I found that a cable company DVR rents for $9.95/month ($10/month rounded) and since the Phillips 3575 sells for about $300, it would take 2.5 years to break even. By then standard definition might be obsolete so my new thinking is it would be better for my son to rent a DVR and buy a cheaper DVDR without a HDD. This presents more questions:

1. Since the cable company rep said their DVRs cannot edit out commercials, if he records a movie from the DVR to DVD-/+R discs on an external DVDR (no hard drive) is it possible to edit out commercials on DVD-/+R discs? I know it is possible to do it on DVD-RAM discs but I don't know if any new model DVDRs can do it on DVD-/+R discs.

2. Is it possible to put markers on the DVD-/+R discs once they are burned from the DVR? I doubt it but thought I'd ask just to be sure. The markers would be put at the "end" of each commercial to allow skipping commercials on playback.

3. Which DVDR without HDD would you recommend?

Thanks,
Skylark

Thanks folks for all your replies.

After doing more checking, I found that a cable company DVR rents for $9.95/month ($10/month rounded) and since the Phillips 3575 sells for about $300, it would take 2.5 years to break even. By then standard definition might be obsolete so my new thinking is it would be better for my son to rent a DVR and buy a cheaper DVDR without a HDD. This presents more questions:

1. Since the cable company rep said their DVRs cannot edit out commercials, if he records a movie from the DVR to DVD-/+R discs on an external DVDR (no hard drive) is it possible to edit out commercials on DVD-/+R discs? I know it is possible to do it on DVD-RAM discs but I don't know if any new model DVDRs can do it on DVD-/+R discs.
Sorry, DVD-Rs can't be edited. So, no removing of ads is possible.

2. Is it possible to put markers on the DVD-/+R discs once they are burned from the DVR? I doubt it but thought I'd ask just to be sure. The markers would be put at the "end" of each commercial to allow skipping commercials on playback.


Not sure across the many brands, but my first thought is no. Most recorders that I've heard of will put chapter marks every 5 minutes when the disc is finalized for playback on other dvd players. If think there was one that allowed you to preset the length of the ch marks-ie, every 5 or 10mins, but again, not sure. :(

...if he records a movie from the DVR to DVD-/+R discs on an external DVDR (no hard drive) is it possible to edit out commercials on DVD-/+R discs?You can do it if you're willing to sit by the machine as you're playing the recorded DVR program so that you can manually pause the DVD recorder when a commercial starts, then resume recording when it's over.

It depends on the recording format.

The Philips +VR format allows you to sort of edit out commercials. You can hide segments of the disc - presumably the commercials in this case. The disc will then play through skipping the hidden segments. You essentially set chapter marks at the beginning and the end of the commercial and then hide the chapter. It works well but you do not regain the hidden segment/chapter space on the disc.

The +VR format offers some limited editing capabilities on disc. Setting chapters, removing chapter marks, editing title names and some other things that escape me at the moment.

The on disc editing capabilities of the +VR format offered vary by brand of recorder. I've seen different editing capabilities based on brand. But the features themselves are because of the capabilities of the +VR format.

The +VR format offers some limited editing capabilities on disc.It's probably a good idea to mention at this point that not all DVD players will play VR-mode discs, particularly the older ones.

It's probably a good idea to mention at this point that not all DVD players will play VR-mode discs, particularly the older ones.
+VR is not the VR-mode we're used to with our Pioneer units, which is not universally compatible, as you said. +VR is a DVD-Video format that's compliant with all the DVD-Video specs, and finalized discs will play in other players/recorders.

You can do it if you're willing to sit by the machine as you're playing the recorded DVR program so that you can manually pause the DVD recorder when a commercial starts, then resume recording when it's over.I know that sitting by the machine to do it will not be an option for my son ... :)

The Philips +VR format allows you to sort of edit out commercials. You can hide segments of the disc - presumably the commercials in this case. The disc will then play through skipping the hidden segments. You essentially set chapter marks at the beginning and the end of the commercial and then hide the chapter. It works well but you do not regain the hidden segment/chapter space on the disc.

The +VR format offers some limited editing capabilities on disc. Setting chapters, removing chapter marks, editing title names and some other things that escape me at the moment.

The on disc editing capabilities of the +VR format offered vary by brand of recorder. I've seen different editing capabilities based on brand. But the features themselves are because of the capabilities of the +VR format.That is very good to know info. Thanks for posting it!

+VR is not the VR-mode we're used to with our Pioneer units, which is not universally compatible, as you said. +VR is a DVD-Video format that's compliant with all the DVD-Video specs, and finalized discs will play in other players/recorders.Again good info to know about the finalized discs. Thanks!

I'll pass the info on to my son and let him decide.
Great forum. Thanks all,
Skylark

+VR is not the VR-mode we're used to with our Pioneer units, which is not universally compatible, as you said. +VR is a DVD-Video format that's compliant with all the DVD-Video specs, and finalized discs will play in other players/recorders.

Correct. +VR is a recording format developed by Philips. It is actually a compromise that incorporates some editing features seen in the VR format along with the ubiquitous playback of the Video Mode format. It is an attempt to make it easier for the consumer. A unified common format (+VR) eliminates the need to juggle two formats (VR and Video).

It was originally intended for +R +RW media but now can be used across media (sans Ram). Like anything else it may have its occasional shortcomings but in most cases people don't even realize they're using it. Downside - it's not nearly as robust as the VR and Video Mode combination - you'll never see it in the professional environment. Upside - ease of use for the consumer. Call it recording mode "lite".

It's been around for years and has typically been seen in Chinese manufactured DVD players. It's all over the place now used by many different brands. Works pretty good.

edit - I'm not sure if Philips originally came up with the +VR format but I do know they have their own flavor of +VR.

+VR is not the VR-mode we're used to with our Pioneer units, which is not universally compatible, as you said. +VR is a DVD-Video format that's compliant with all the DVD-Video specs, and finalized discs will play in other players/recorders.This is new information to me, so I perused the net a bit and discovered that this is done by creating an additional /VIDEO_RM directory in addition to the normal /VIDEO_TS structure. The information about edits goes into the new directory and is handled by newer players, but I assume that older players just ignore it. So yes, technically the disc is compatible with older players - but it seems to me that they would still play the commercials that had been "edited out".

Or am I missing something?

This is new information to me, so I perused the net a bit and discovered that this is done by creating an additional /VIDEO_RM directory in addition to the normal /VIDEO_TS structure. The information about edits goes into the new directory and is handled by newer players, but I assume that older players just ignore it. So yes, technically the disc is compatible with older players - but it seems to me that they would still play the commercials that had been "edited out".

Or am I missing something?
I am assuming if you do the editing on the hard drive and then dub to DVD that you will only have the parts not edited out on the DVD. I assume this because other posts talk about edited material having shorter lengths of play than the original dub when figuring how much space an edited program will take on a DVD.

Have I assumed correctly?

Correct. With +VR if you edit on the HDD and hide chapters (edit, segment, what ever it wants to be called based on brand) they do not transfer to a DVD disc.

I am assuming if you do the editing on the hard drive and then dub to DVD that you will only have the parts not edited out on the DVD. I assume this because other posts talk about edited material having shorter lengths of play than the original dub when figuring how much space an edited program will take on a DVD.

Have I assumed correctly?
I believe you're correct. The +VR RM folder that Sean referred to only holds recorder meta data. +VR creates only one VOB file that contains what is to be played... all that is explained in this Wikipedia entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BVR)

There was a lot of discussion about the +VR format just under a year ago. The reason it came up was that the Polaroid 2001G uses it and this model had a fairly healthy following.

I posted pics showing file structure etc but I believe those posts are archived now. Went on to find out that brands like Philips, Magnavox, Accurian and I'm guessing Lite-on (made some of the Accurians) had/have models that implemented +VR.

I believe you're correct. The +VR RM folder that Sean referred to only holds recorder meta data. +VR creates only one VOB file that contains what is to be played... all that is explained in this Wikipedia entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BVR)

Actually no. Multiple VOB files are created. Just like Video mode. VR mode creates one long vro file. Not +VR.

Here are some of the posts I was looking for:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8958736&&#post8958736

This one and the two following it.

Here's a better pic that shows the VOB file structure in the video_ts folder of a +VR recorded disc:

Actually no. Multiple VOB files are created. Just like Video mode. VR mode creates one long vro file. Not +VR.
Oh no... I read my beloved Wiki wrong! Clearly says multiple VOBs for each title in DVD-Video and multiple VOBs shared by all titles on +VR.

Actually that wiki entry was a bit confusing. If you read it again the single VOB comment went like this:

"DVD+VR recorded disc a single VOB set is shared by all recordings"

Notice "single VOB set". One set of VOBs (?) shared by multiple titles on the disc I think is the interpretation - I think.

Also I think the author confused the AUDIO_TS folder on a Video disc with the VIDEO_RM folder of a +VR disc. It is the AUDIO_TS folder that is ignored on a Video mode disc. Some Video mode discs don't even include an AUDIO_TS folder.

This is new information to me, so I perused the net a bit and discovered that this is done by creating an additional /VIDEO_RM directory in addition to the normal /VIDEO_TS structure. The information about edits goes into the new directory and is handled by newer players, but I assume that older players just ignore it. So yes, technically the disc is compatible with older players - but it seems to me that they would still play the commercials that had been "edited out".

Or am I missing something?

Yes the DVD disc editing information goes into the VIDEO_RM folder. This information can be dynamic. Chapter marks can be set. Chapter marks can be changed. Removed. Chapters can be hidden. Menu thumbnails can be changed. Etc. All of these dynamic edits are accounted for in the VIDEO_RM folder.

The "final" editing decisions are then incorporated into the finalization process. Once finalized the contents of the VIDEO_RM folder become moot - it's over, no longer needed, stick a fork in it. When playing back on a DVD player access to the VIDEO_RM folder is not necessary. A DVD player doesn't even see the folder.

Consider the VIDEO_RM folder as nothing more than a "pre finalization" holding pen or perhaps a scratch pad that tracks and coordinates the edits. During the finalization process all of this information (such as navigation through certain chapters - hidden ones for example) become part of the video_ts.ifo file in the VIDEO_TS directory. All a DVD player looks for on a disc is the VIDEO_TS directory. With hidden chapters (commercials) there are no navigation paths to the hidden chapters in the video_ts.ifo file contained in the VIDEO_TS directory.

For example if chapter number 2 is hidden on the disc then when playing chapters 1 through 5 they will play as 1-3-4-5. No # 2 because it has been hidden and is not referenced in the video_ts.ifo file for playback. An unfinalized disc will also play this way but will allow you to make changes - these changes are accounted for in the VIDEO_RM folder. But with unfinalized discs the VIDEO_RM folder is accessed or referenced by a +VR capable DVD recorder. The +VR DVD recorder is capable of seeing the VIDEO_RM folder.

Thumbnails for example. You can change them over and over on disc. Whatever your last choice was will be accounted for in the VIDEO_RM folder and used when finalizing the disc.

Quite ingenious actually for write once media. It's been around for a while.

Perhaps it's the manufacturers answer for editing content without a HDD? That's been my thought. And +VR DVD recorders without HDDs can be purchased at Walmart for something like $80. Maybe 10 bucks more for a combo unit if you time it right.

The DVD recorders I've experimented with using +VR format append multiple recordings to the same VOB file, even if they are at different resolutions. When the VOB file hits 1 Gbyte, they close it off and start a new one. The information about where each title starts within the VOB file(s) is in the IFO file of the title set.

This can be a bit annoying if you transfer the DVD to your PC and attempt to edit the VOB file with VirtualDub MPEG. It goes haywire when it hits a different video resolution in the same file.

Yes that brings up a whole new set of issues. Finding a decent editing program. But it probably wasn't designed for efficient PC editing. This gets back to wabjxo's post about "one set" of VOB files. It will never win friends for this type of activity.

I prefer the DVD recorders that offer both Video mode and VR mode options.

I am assuming if you do the editing on the hard drive and then dub to DVD that you will only have the parts not edited out on the DVD.Skylark's query (post #13), which led to my "VR isn't compatible with older players" comment, was specifically for non-HDD recorders.

In fact, if you have an HDD there's no need to create a +VR mode disc in the first place. Instead, you can just do all your editing on the hard drive and then dump the edited result to a standard DVD-R Video mode disc with no compatibility worries whatsoever.

If you're limited to a non-HDD machine, then +VR mode may have it's place. But as I understand it, a non-HDD recorder which supports +VR mode discs can edit them, and you can play the discs on older players, but if those players don't support +VR mode then they won't honour the edits and will just play the original material as if it was unedited.

Have I got that right?

Close.

There are no players that either do or do not support the +VR format. All players should be able to play a +VR mode disc. This is providing they can read the disc itself. This ability to read the disc has nothing to do with the +VR format. Some players simply have problems reading certain brands of discs. Or can't read a +R disc for example.

Typically a +VR recorder only offers just the +VR format for recording. There is no choice. Whether it is a HDD model or not. There is no +VR or Video mode decision to make. It is only +VR.

For example the new 2007 Philips 3575. It only records using the +VR format. It does not offer an option to record in Video mode. This is typical for a +VR DVD recorder.

I don't think there was ever a Philips DVD recorder that has offered either the Video mode or the VR mode as an option. Philips offers +VR as the sole option. It is the Philips format.

If you're limited to a non-HDD machine, then +VR mode may have it's place. But as I understand it, a non-HDD recorder which supports +VR mode discs can edit them, and you can play the discs on older players, but if those players don't support +VR mode then they won't honour the edits and will just play the original material as if it was unedited.

Have I got that right?

To answer this portion of your post more specifically all DVD players should honor the edits on a +VR disc - old or new. The DVD player does not have to be "+VR compatable". There is no such thing. To a DVD player a +VR disc looks just like a Video mode disc. I realize "all" may be a stretch but there is nothing in the format that does not allow an older (or newer) DVD player to honor the edits on a +VR disc.

There have been reports that FF and RW does not perform as it should in some cases but similar complaints seem to be common regardless of recording format. Meaning there seems to always be some reports of incompatibilities with media types, DVD player brands, and DVD recorders.

Skylark's query (post #13), which led to my "VR isn't compatible with older players" comment, was specifically for non-HDD recorders.

In fact, if you have an HDD there's no need to create a +VR mode disc in the first place. Instead, you can just do all your editing on the hard drive and then dump the edited result to a standard DVD-R Video mode disc with no compatibility worries whatsoever.

If you're limited to a non-HDD machine, then +VR mode may have it's place. But as I understand it, a non-HDD recorder which supports +VR mode discs can edit them, and you can play the discs on older players, but if those players don't support +VR mode then they won't honour the edits and will just play the original material as if it was unedited.

Have I got that right?
The Philips 3575 uses standard Video-mode DVD discs, right out of the box. You don't have to "create" a +VR disc. If the machine does it, it must be during dubbing cause there's no delay for re-formatting when you start a dub.

I've created -R and +R discs on the Philips and Backed them up on the Pio 640 HDD (HS copy), then made finalized copies from the Backup on the Pio 640... no different than with any other disc.

The Philips 3575 uses standard Video-mode DVD discs, right out of the box. You don't have to "create" a +VR disc. If the machine does it, it must be during dubbing cause there's no delay for re-formatting when you start a dub.

I've created -R and +R discs on the Philips and Backed them up on the Pio 640 HDD (HS copy), then made finalized copies from the Backup on the Pio 640... no different than with any other disc.

Just curious. What is a standard Video-mode DVD disc right out of the box? I've never heard of that.

Writeable DVD discs are simply blank media. They are format agnostic.

What does a standard Video-mode DVD disc mean to you? Are you saying they are somehow pre-formatted for Video mode perhaps? You're kidding right?

Just curious. What is a standard Video-mode DVD disc right out of the box? I've never heard of that.

Writeable DVD discs are simply blank media. They are format agnostic.

What does a standard Video-mode DVD disc mean to you? Are you saying they are somehow pre-formatted for Video mode perhaps? You're kidding right?
That's what I'm saying. I may be wrong, but when you use blank media in a Pioneer (maybe others) you have to format it only if you want a VR-mode disc, and Pio only works in two modes: Video- and VR-mode.

That's what I'm saying. I may be wrong, but when you use blank media in a Pioneer (maybe others) you have to format it only if you want a VR-mode disc, and Pio only works in two modes: Video- and VR-mode.

I'm only trying to help. Do me (or yourself) a favor. Go here:

http://www.p4c.philips.com/na4/d/dvdr3575h_37/dvdr3575h_37_dfu_aen.pdf

It is the PDF for the 3575 manual. Now once in the PDF search +VR.

You will see countless references to +VR.

Or take out your paper bound manual and look at page 8 - for a start. First paragraph. Your 3575 records in the +VR format. Period.

Nextoo, your idea of "help" is exactly what causes first-time posters to plead for mercy.... and others not to post at all. As Lordsmurf said, you are rude (and arrogant), which is counter-productive to "help." But, sadly, I don't think you know any other way.

Nextoo, your idea of "help" is exactly what causes first-time posters to plead for mercy.... and others not to post at all. As Lordsmurf said, you are rude (and arrogant), which is counter-productive to "help." But, sadly, I don't think you know any other way.

Sorry my friend but you need a serious look in the mirror. You simply push back on everything. Regardless of tone.

Nextoo, your idea of "help" is exactly what causes first-time posters to plead for mercy.... and others not to post at all. As Lordsmurf said, you are rude (and arrogant), which is counter-productive to "help." But, sadly, I don't think you know any other way.

This may surprise you but I actually like Lordsmurf. The guy is very smart and we've had our discussions over the years. But also there are a few occasions where we have stepped in and helped each other. That being said I still don't appreciate JVC.

Now as it relates to +VR. I was simply trying to relate the plusses and minuses of the +VR format. As I understand it. Read the posts. I have no dog in the fight.

Misunderstandings abound in any forum, so cool the jets. I have learned more from nextoo than most anyone in this forum, especially concerning the Polaroid 2000g. I posted several times in the Phillips thread and got the "read the manual" or "set my clock" instead of actual help, but here help was provided. I also realize that nextoo probably mis-read Pioneer for Phillips so a simple correction not a rude reply would have been sufficient. As noted, misunderstandings abound in a forum. I suffer from the same.

Misunderstandings abound in any forum, so cool the jets. I have learned more from nextoo than most anyone in this forum, especially concerning the Polaroid 2000g. I posted several times in the Phillips thread and got the "read the manual" or "set my clock" instead of actual help, but here help was provided. I also realize that nextoo probably mis-read Pioneer for Phillips so a simple correction not a rude reply would have been sufficient. As noted, misunderstandings abound in a forum. I suffer from the same.


Well said.

There are no players that either do or do not support the +VR format. All players should be able to play a +VR mode disc. This is providing they can read the disc itself.Yes, I understand they can read and play the disc. But the edits you make go into a newly-defined /VIDEO_RM folder which older players have no knowledge of, so my point is that although older players can PLAY a +VR disc, I don't see how they can honour the edits to the disc.

For example, if you record a TV program to a +VR mode disk (and I'm talking direct-to-DVD here, no HDD involved), then edit out the commercials, the commercials are not physically removed from the video stream (they can't be, since it's write-once media). Instead, information about which portions of the video stream to skip on playback is written to files in the /VIDEO_RM folder.

A newer, +VR-compliant player will read the information stored in the /VIDEO_RM folder and skip over the "deleted" commercials as if they had been physically removed. But an older player knows nothing about the /VIDEO_RM folder and therefore I would expect it to play back the entire video stream uninterrupted.

If this is actually how it works then it's important to know. Imagine burning a home-made tape from a camcorder to a +VR-mode disc and then editing out pieces you don't want your friends or relatives to see. If they've got older players, you may have set yourself up for some embarrasment.

Yes, I understand they can read and play the disc. But the edits you make go into a newly-defined /VIDEO_RM folder which older players have no knowledge of, so my point is that although older players can PLAY a +VR disc, I don't see how they can honour the edits to the disc.

For example, if you record a TV program to a +VR mode disk (and I'm talking direct-to-DVD here, no HDD involved), then edit out the commercials, the commercials are not physically removed from the video stream (they can't be, since it's write-once media). Instead, information about which portions of the video stream to skip on playback is written to files in the /VIDEO_RM folder.

A newer, +VR-compliant player will read the information stored in the /VIDEO_RM folder and skip over the "deleted" commercials as if they had been physically removed. But an older player knows nothing about the /VIDEO_RM folder and therefore I would expect it to play back the entire video stream uninterrupted.

If this is actually how it works then it's important to know. Imagine burning a home-made tape from a camcorder to a +VR-mode disc and then editing out pieces you don't want your friends or relatives to see. If they've got older players, you may have set yourself up for some embarrasment.

Sean, I think you might be missing just a bit of how the VIDEO_RM folder comes into play.

All of the edit data points are indeed referenced in the VIDEO_RM folder - pre finalization. But once the disc is finalized the VIDEO_RM folder's use and life is essentially over. All of the info contained in the Video_RM folder is incorporated in the finalization process. The Video_RM folder is no longer needed for playback on any DVD player. Regardless of the DVD players age. Once finalized the use of the VIDEO_RM folder is over. The VIDEO_RM folder is only useful on unfinalized discs.

The finalized +VR disc looks just like a DVD-Video disc to the player. No DVD player whether old or new can see the VIDEO_RM folder. All the info required to play the disc correctly is contained in the VIDEO_TS folder. Specifically in the video_ts.ifo file. Just like with a DVD-Video mode disc.

Against my advice (several times) to buy a DVDR w/ HDD, my friend bought a Panasonic model without a HDD in December 2006. Do Panny DVDRs "without a HDD" sold about that time have the +VR mode? If so, I'll let her know that she can edit her DVD+R discs.

Panasonic does include the +VR mode when recording to +R and +RW media. But I do not believe Panasonic includes the option to edit on a DVD disc. I posted previously that although the +VR specs allow for this type of editing not all brands of DVD recorders implement all of the available features.

Panasonic does include the +VR mode when recording to +R and +RW media. But I do not believe Panasonic includes the option to edit on a DVD disc. I posted previously that although the +VR specs allow for this type of editing not all brands of DVD recorders implement all of the available features.Thanks nextoo. I won't mention anything to her.

Skylark

Sean, I think you might be missing just a bit of how the VIDEO_RM folder comes into play.

...once the disc is finalized the VIDEO_RM folder's use and life is essentially over. All of the info contained in the Video_RM folder is incorporated in the finalization process.Then I'm obviously missing something here. If you record an hour-long show on a DVD-R disc, then edit out commercials, how does the video stream for the show get modified? The recorder can't modify the original show on write-only media, the only way I could see it making the edits backward-compatible is if the recorder made a second copy of the entire show minus the edits. But that's a stupid solution, it would take a long time and you couldn't do it if if the show took more than half the disc.

But wait - is it that the recorder burns a new ".IFO" file that contains branching instructions to skip over the commercials? Yes, I can see how that could work, it would be a cool solution. Does anyone know if this is the case?

Bingo - you just got it.

Although I don't think it burns a new IFO (video_ts.ifo) file after each edit. The IFO file is created when the disc is finalized. The VIDEO_RM folder is the repository for the edits - pre finalization. And remain there until the disc is finalized. All of the edits are incorporated into the IFO file when the disc is finalized. Once finalized the VIDEO_RM fold is no longer needed. Thus making a +VR disc look just like a DVD-Video mode disc to any DVD player.

Bingo - you just got it.OK, that makes more sense to me now, and it is kind of a slick way to do it.

But I wouldn't trust it to delete material that I wouldn't want someone to see. All you'd have to do is copy the .VOB file to a computer to see all of the stuff that had been "deleted" from the disk.

OK, that makes more sense to me now, and it is kind of a slick way to do it.

But I wouldn't trust it to delete material that I wouldn't want someone to see. All you'd have to do is copy the .VOB file to a computer to see all of the stuff that had been "deleted" from the disk.

Yes I would agree. When doing this directly on an optical disc chapters are just "hidden". The IFO file simply navigates past these hidden chapters. These hidden chapters are still contained in the VOBs.

When editing on a HDD with a DVD recorder that utilizes the +VR format the chapters are in fact deleted and not transfered to a DVD disc when finalizing.

A +VR machine is not my first choice but for those without a HDD the format does present a way to edit commercials. Not the greatest but like you say a pretty slick way to do it (sans HDD).

It took me a while to figure out what was going on with +VR.

I wonder does this add to the discussion, especially for HDD DVDRs ...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2113882,00.asp

I wonder does this add to the discussion, especially for HDD DVDRs ...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2113882,00.aspHmmmm. I wonder if he feels any differently now that the TiVoHD is out?