Is it hard to find these? It seems the dual layer capability is rarely displayed prominently in the features list (in store or online) unless you dig deep down in the details for the product. This makes it a tedious search to distinguish the sl recorders from the dl recorders. Did anybody else find it difficult to find the "right" dual layer recorder for you?

Anybody have any model suggestions? I'm looking for a cheapo model. Doesn't have to be fancy, doesn't need lots of features, just needs the dl recording function. I am looking for this to complement my existing hdd/dvd recorder which already has all the features I need (except is sl recording only).

Is it hard to find these? It seems the dual layer capability is rarely displayed prominently in the features list (in store or online) unless you dig deep down in the details for the product. This makes it a tedious search to distinguish the sl recorders from the dl recorders. Did anybody else find it difficult to find the "right" dual layer recorder for you?

From what I have read about these jokes, they offer no advantage over SL recorders. I have read that they can't continue from the end of layer one to the beginning of layer two without human intervention. Why would you want to use an outrageously overpriced DL disc when two single layer disc's will do the same job at a fraction of the cost? Just doesn't make sense to me but maybe I am missing something important.

Dave

Interesting- I wasn't aware of this. So recordings on a dl disc do not operate in the same fashion you would expect a conventional pressed dl disc? That is pretty messed up then. I thought the only big difference was that the capacity per layer is slightly less than a single layer disc.

I hope that somebody that has one while chime in here. From the posts I have read here by people that have a DL recorder, the tid-bit that I retain in my brain is that they don't automatically switch layers like DVD players do. Maybe that isn't true of all DL recorders? But it was enough for me to eliminate them from my buying list. I hope there is at least one out there that can record on the 2nd layer as an extension of the 1st layer without human intervention. But that could be a reason manufacturers aren't very proud of that feature.

Dave

Yes, I would like to hear more of any quirks of dl recording, if anyone out there has experiences with it.

The Pio 640 records both layers "seamlessly" and I've read the Panasonic EH55 and EH75 do if dubbing from HDD to DVD but not if recording directly to a DVD. Maybe some Panny owners will confirm that.

I can confirm that the Panny HDD recorders record seamlessly from the HDD to dual layer discs just as wabjxo describes. (I have an EH75V) during "high speed dubbing". The issue DaveC E100 is vaguely remembering is the issue wabjxo describes when you are attempting to record "live" (i.e., in real time) directly to the a dual layer disc.

Dave - your E100 is getting a little long in the tooth so maybe you need to get one of the newer generation Pannys so you can pass along more accurate information about how the latest gen recorders work. (Just some good natured ribbing from a fellow E100 owner ;) ) (P.S. I still have my E100 Panny because it has some neat unique features such as recording to SD cards and serves as a reliable backup recorder, but I really think the EH75V features including much improved User Interface, Divx playback and a robust TVGOS pretty much blow the old standby E100 away). Too bad the newer generation (analog tuner) HDD based Panny recorders are no longer readily available.

Are there any other "idiosyncracies" with dl recording that may catch the sl recording user off guard?

Does anybody know if Panasonic has any basic model dl dvd recorders w/o the hdd?

Hi Vic - you are probably right, as usual, and I probably would have gotten one with a digital tuner and a larger HDD but Panasonic didn't make one. I refuse to buy a recorder that doesn't have a HDD. I don't think I need Divx playback because I am not smart enough to create a Divx disc to play back. I do have my E95 and E85 that have TVGOS and I am using the E95 most of the time now. But I still prefer my E100 who's HDD is too full right now and I need some personal time to start clearing it out. That may have to wait until the snow flies and we go into hibernation here in Minnesota. I have 2 trees down in my yard now from a wind storm and wise people are starting to build Ark's after 12 inches of rain this weekend. We can't seem to build a bridge that will stand for 50 years, probably too much salt being applied every winter?

So I guess I will have to leave the "up to date" advice to folks like you and WABJXO. I need to become more of a reader and less of a poster but that is hard for me to do. After spending 55 years working in Electronics and Broadcast Radio, I need to throw my 2 cents worth in every now and then. I just can't help it.

If the manufacturers ever get their nerve back and decide to bring out a product that will give the MPAA a heart attack, maybe I will buy it. But I will probably be in a nursing home by then and they probably don't allow electronic toys in there?

Dave

Are there any other "idiosyncracies" with dl recording that may catch the sl recording user off guard?

Does anybody know if Panasonic has any basic model dl dvd recorders w/o the hdd?

I have a Pio 640, and have made numerous DL discs, recorded from the HDD at high-speed. These have all played fine in my Pio 640, where there is no hesitation at layer change, and in my other three DVD players, a 6-8 year-old Philips changer, a year old Toshiba, and a year-old Sony 400 disc changer. In the Sony, there is a fraction of a second pause at layer change, which doesn't happen with commercially pressed DL discs.

The only other quirk I can think of, is that when you set thumbnails for the different titles, if a title begins on the first layer, you must select a thumbnail that will be on the first layer, otherwise, it defaults to the last frame on the first layer. A title beginning on the second layer can use any thumbnail, with no problem. That's the way it is with my Pio, but I don't know if this happens with other recorders.

I can confirm that the Panny HDD recorders record seamlessly from the HDD to dual layer discs just as wabjxo describes. (I have an EH75V) during "high speed dubbing". The issue DaveC E100 is vaguely remembering is the issue wabjxo describes when you are attempting to record "live" (i.e., in real time) directly to the a dual layer disc.
Maybe you could clear up a question I have about this. Panasonic recorders have an FR mode, where they can tell the machine to use a "quality" that is between the XP, SP, LP, etc modes to completely fill a disk. On a hard drive machine, how does it know if you are using a single or dual layer blank? For example, I just recorded Ice Station Zebra from TCM. It is about 2:30 give or take a little. Too long for SP mode. I could record it in FR mode and compress it, but could I use FR and a DL disk to get better than SP quality? I would find that preferable, if it's possible. I know, I know, consult the manual, but the Panasonic manuals are not my friend.:mad:

The machine will scan the disc when you put it in, and will know it is a DL disc. But, how FR recording will deal with a DL disc, I don't know. I have a Pioneer.

Thank you, everyone, for the great participation in this topic! :D

Here's another question- when you are recording to a dl disc, how does it cope when it has to navigate to the other layer? Does it automatically break the recording into 2 programs at the time of the switch? If it is copying from hdd, is it better just to break the program manually where the layer switch would occur, or does that create other unintended problems? Do you get explicit control over "I want this stuff on the 1st layer, and I want this stuff on the 2nd layer", or do you just send the whole program set to "one" disc, and it figures out where to put what as it writes to the disc?

With my pioneer, you have no control over where the break between sides comes, and I doubt you would on any other machine. A single title can span two sides, I do that all the time. Under certain conditions, real-time recording IIRC, my player will automatically insert a chapter mark at the break.

I have read that they can't continue from the end of layer one to the beginning of layer two without human intervention. Why would you want to use an outrageously overpriced DL disc when two single layer disc's will do the same job at a fraction of the cost?

Personally, I would *want* to have control over the two layers. Even if it was to put chapter breaks at the end of one layer and the next (i.e. I could have a recording straddle two layers but the swap would be at a chapter stop like most actual pressed DVDs). That would avoid stuttering at the layer change.

Plus, the "outrageously overpriced DL disc"s are now priced at what DVD-Rs were just a few years ago.