I'm having a comprehension disconnect. The BR forum is filled with people wailing, gnashing their teeth, and proclaiming that they are selling off all their BR players and discs and going back to DVD.

Uhhh, ok. I'll go back to watching crappy picture and listing to subpar audio... that'll show them! Mkay. Sure.

One studio going from neutral to exclusive now all of a sudden is the DOOM of all HD disc media forever.

Huh? What?

I can't tell if this is mass hysteria, mass stupidity, or a well-orchestrated response.

I've thought from the beginning that this "format war" was not going to be done overnight, that we would see defections and realignments in both directions. The overall numbers are so small that anything can happen.

What I'm not getting is why is it that ONLY BR can win the war, otherwise it's the end for all of us. I honestly don't understand that point of view.

It's seems to me to be a bunch of petulant, childish, "I don' wanna play no more! I'm going HOME! MOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYY!!!!"

I've been seeing this same sort of response on an isolated basis from individual HD-DVD owners any time new sales figures or press reports come out from the BDA. Are people so insecure in their choice of format? Does one format capitulating somewhere down the road mean that players and discs of the opposing format suddenly cease to function?

Am I the only one that thinks that the longer this format war goes on, the better for everyone concerned? IMO the industry will ultimately converge on dual-format players.

The longer this goes on, the LESS LIKELY that owners of either format will be left out in the cold with respect to replacement hardware being available on a long-term basis.

I'll admit that there have been a few times that I've been concerned that if HD-DVD bought the farm, especially early, that within a few years there would be no source of replacement players in the event my 1st- or 2nd-generation HD-DVD players bit the dust. The longer this war goes on, and the more players that are sold, the less likely this eventuality is... for either side.

Continued competition will also drive down the price of both hardware and software... yet I see people saying this is a bad thing... another position that I can't fathom.

Is owning both formats so anathema to some people that it's not an option? I seriously get the feeling that some BR supporters WANT both formats to fail rather then either HD-DVD winning, or format coexistence.

As a fan of HD movies of both flavors, my mind reels at the reaction I'm seeing.

What am I missing?

most people on this forum are over 16, but act like they are 12. :p

I only own HD DVD, but I didn't dump it at the Blockbuster announcement and I wouldn't dump BD at this announcement. Actually I'm waiting for a sub-$250 (non-Sony) BD player and I'll jump in on that side, too.

I think you are correct. I am amazed at the people going crazy over in the Blu Ray forum. I personally think that HD-DVD and Blu Ray are not going anyware and that the future are combo players. I think neither of the HiDef formats will replace DVD in the forseable future, because of the simple fact that HiDef is a very small minority of people in the US let alone the World.

It sounds like to be that you are describing very risk averse people who took a big gamble, but didn't really understand the riskyness of such gamble. Its sorta like the subprime morage mess. Given the previous assumptions, then the response is rational, cut your known losses now, instead of risking some future bigger loss.

Adam

Winning and losing, for some video game affected persons, are more important than watching movies. Most BD movie watchers are quite sane, but they are less noisy than the minority group of those with a fight and win, video game mentality.

They will really scream when Warner, IMHO, goes HD DVD exclusive this fall. The fact of the matter is that studios (except Sony) can make more money from HD DVD. I am sure that Paramount did a cost-benefit analysis of encoding and replicating many titles on HD DVD versus BD. They can make money on quantity of titles on HD DVD, whereas profits on BD depend upon quantity of disks for one title (to offset mastering and replications costs). With few BD50 production facilities, I think that the number of BD titles at one time has a certain limit at this time. Since it is so easy to transition production facilities from DVD to HD DVD, many more replication plants are available for increased number of movie offerings. Paramount can make more money on multiple offerings of catalog titles on HD DVD than they could on higher sales of individual titles on BD.

But I believe that a certain very ugly psychology has taken hold of certain persons in this forum. For them, winning is everything. They need to be dominant, victorious. The fact of the matter is that what is good for consumers is lower prices, and HD DVD has helped deliver that. BD needs to become a bargain for both manufacturers and consumers in order to succeed. We need to ignore the noise from the children and stay informed about what is really going on.

I expect that Paramount and others want to put a lot of movies out there this fall to go with the cheap HD DVD players that are sure to hit the market.

I agree that the rhetoric is making this less of a science forum and more of a playpen. I think folks should enjoy whatever format they prefer -- or both formats if they prefer -- since there will be two formats for a very long time. People should enjoy the movie experience rather than concentrate on the video game experience of winning and losing.

Winning and losing, for some video game affected persons, are more important than watching movies.

...

I think folks should enjoy whatever format they prefer -- or both formats if they prefer -- since there will be two formats for a very long time. People should enjoy the movie experience rather than concentrate on the video game experience of winning and losing.

I agree on both counts. I bought into HD-DVD in April 2006, the very weekend it was released, and into Blu-Ray in November, 2006. Ever since, I've just bought the movies I wanted, on the format I wanted, for dual-format releases deciding based on features and/or price.

For the last 7 months, it's been (primarily) doom and gloom on the HD-DVD side and gloating and partying on the BR side... yet that never kept me from buying HD-DVD releases... the thought never crossed my mind to stop buying HD-DVDs, even if BR were to win the war next month.

I really do wonder if the HD-DVD fans (as represented on this forum) are into it more for the long haul than the corresponding BR population here. I don't recall seeing mass defeatism from the HD-DVD crowd when the PS3 sales numbers came out and BR vaulted into the sales lead... sure, there were (and have been) isolated instances of buyer's remorse, but nothing like what we're seeing today.

The BR contingent seems to be committing ritualistic suicide en masse.

Bizarre.

It sounds like to be that you are describing very risk averse people who took a big gamble, but didn't really understand the riskyness of such gamble. Its sorta like the subprime morage mess. Given the previous assumptions, then the response is rational, cut your known losses now, instead of risking some future bigger loss.

Adam

You make an interesting comparison. IMHO, the economic mess we are facing will give the advantage to the format that is cheaper to manufacture and purchase, costing less for both studios and consumers. I think the trend will favor HD DVD.

People make a psychological, as well as a monetary investment in one format or the other. They don't like to see their format's stock go down, and they look for short-term as opposed to long-term gains. This or that format has to win now (they believe), or HD is dead. Short-term minds have difficulty with long-term thinking. I find it interesting that Toshiba engages in long-term thinking and planning. Some HD DVD supporters are very impatient with this, since they share the short-term psychology of some BD supporters.

Everybody wants to bet on a sure thing. BD claimed it had a sure thing, and supporters bought into that claim. The economic fundamentals of HD DVD versus BD showed something else, that cost and price are very important, especially for a public that has hit a credit ceiling. We will see lots of inexpensive HD DVD players in the fall and lots of movies to go with them. If studios drop the price of HD DVD's, then the package will be complete: People will look for the biggest bang for the buck in hard economic times. The format that delivers in that environment will have the best prospects.

I want to watch movies as best they can be presented. I purchased an A1 a few months after its introduction and Panny BD player last month. I will continue to purchase movies I like on both but prefer the PQ on HD-DVD so far. I see no reason to stop. You have to love the BD fanboys who are getting rid of their movies and players. Why? I have no clue as there will be plenty of BD movies to buy and rent and they can get a HD-DVD fairly cheaply to have access to all hi-def discs. I see no reason to have one disc format and believe home video can survive quite nicely and thrive with both as is the case with gaming which is more fragmented than video. Those who are chucking their BD players over Paramount's move clearly are not movie lovers and are more concerned over picking the "right" format for their own foolish reasons involving their self respect than their enjoyment of movies.

I have both formats, but the meltdown over there is incredible. I told them that much in one of their threads, and tried to inject reasoning, I'm sure I'll be shot down....

Most enthusiasts want as much content available to them at the least cost.

Wars prevent this and also turn off consumers from getting involved in either format.

Waiting the wars out can easily mean that both camps lose by continuing to be locked in a death match, so long that neither ends up as the replacement for DVD.

With technology moving so fast, something will shift away from disc based medium to something else, hopefully with a unified format and playback mechanism.

Imagine where HDTV would be if people had to buy 720p or 1080i capable sets and could only get the programming offered by those networks broadcasting in that format.

HDTV sales would be where HD disc systems are today.

The BR contingent seems to be committing ritualistic suicide en masse.

Bizarre.

Of course, the BD mantra of "more exclusive studios" and "higher disk capacity" has committed them to a belief that loss of studio support would end the format war. One can almost feel their disappointment with the Paramount announcement.

Most enthusiasts want as much content available to them at the least cost.

Wars prevent this and also turn off consumers from getting involved in either format.


I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this. In fact, I think the exact opposite to be true. Without the competition between HD-DVD and BR to drive down player costs, and without HD-DVD being already on the market with a quality product to force BR to clean up their act with respect to PQ, where would we be?

There is no doubt in my mind that we would be stuck with subpar BR encodes and higher player prices, as there would be no incentive to get things right.

Competition is good.

I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this. In fact, I think the exact opposite to be true. Without the competition between HD-DVD and BR to drive down player costs, and without HD-DVD being already on the market with a quality product to force BR to clean up their act with respect to PQ, where would we be?

There is no doubt in my mind that we would be stuck with subpar BR encodes and higher player prices, as there would be no incentive to get things right.

Competition is good.

Agreed. Competition is good for consumers, bad for manufacturers who have to reduce cost and improve quality in order to gain market share. Consumer bang for the buck comes with competition. In the fall, with the coming credit meltdown, both HD DVD and BD will be competing with food, clothing, and shelter for market share. Just my HO.

I'm afraid I disagree strongly with this. In fact, I think the exact opposite to be true. Without the competition between HD-DVD and BR to drive down player costs, and without HD-DVD being already on the market with a quality product to force BR to clean up their act with respect to PQ, where would we be?

There is no doubt in my mind that we would be stuck with subpar BR encodes and higher player prices, as there would be no incentive to get things right.

Competition is good.

Thats the way I see it too. The majority of people aren't buying the players at 250/500 now, and it's a safe assumption that they wouldn't be buying them if they were 500-1000 if there wasn't strong competition on both ends. to reach mass market penetration though, both formats still need to lower prices on both hardware and software. Having 1 format at this point means nothing if it is still overpriced. Dual format players will eventually get here at a low enough pricepoint that neither format will matter outside of price and features. Both products are in their infancy and have a long lifespan in the market

Wars prevent this and also turn off consumers from getting involved in either format.

To a certain degree, sure. But having a war for the first year or two of HDM has been an advantage. I think it's pretty clear we have more content, better titles, and lower prices specifically *because* of the war.

The threads on the BD side are fascinating. I (and many others) have been saying for months that this is much closer than others would lead you to believe. The BD side seemed to think that the HD DVD side would just roll over and die for no reason other than it was currently lagging a bit. Just last week, I was pointing out how close this whole thing was (with only a 700k delta between software sales). You can crow about 60/40 or 2:1 ratios all you want, but if you’re only 700,000 titles ahead, you have a small lead. That’s it.

All it took was a single announcement by a single studio to turn this whole thing around. By definition, that means that HD DVD wasn't a "sinking ship" or a "dead format" or whatever other hyperbole has been thrown at it. It has REALLY shaken up the worldview that some of those folks had. A worldview that was unrealistically optimistic to begin with.

To a certain degree, sure. But having a war for the first year or two of HDM has been an advantage. I think it's pretty clear we have more content, better titles, and lower prices specifically *because* of the war.

The threads on the BD side are fascinating. I (and many others) have been saying for months that this is much closer than others would lead you to believe. The BD side seemed to think that the HD DVD side would just roll over and die for no reason other than it was currently lagging a bit. Just last week, I was pointing out how close this whole thing was (with only a 700k delta between software sales). You can crow about 60/40 or 2:1 ratios all you want, but if you’re only 700,000 titles ahead, you have a small lead. That’s it.

All it took was a single announcement by a single studio to turn this whole thing around. By definition, that means that HD DVD wasn't a "sinking ship" or a "dead format" or whatever other hyperbole has been thrown at it. It has REALLY shaken up the worldview that some of those folks had. A worldview that was unrealistically optimistic to begin with.

Expensive players is one of the reasons people are pissed, i know i would be if i just layed out $600 to $1000 on a stand alone player only to hear this 2 months later!
PS3 owners however still have a unit with 2nd hand value, so not to much lost if you sell.

I think what most people fail to realize is, we just want this damn thing over. Period.

im pretty sure 95% of people dont really give a flying crap who ends up getting our money, but we would like to know that the format we buy is the one that sticks around. Myself i was leaning towards Blu-ray. Why you ask? Just because it was winning, and that is the only reason.

Nobody is "committing suicide" over this jump, it is just frustrating as a consumer to see this dragged out by these companies with ABSOLUELTY NO REGARD to the consumers. They really dont give a crap about us.

Then I see posts from the same people that these companies are screwing over defending them. What the real baffling thing about all this is, why arent all of us pissed off???? I know I am. How long do we have to endure this retarded battle of which exactly the same format is better than the other exactly the same format?

When i see posts of YESSS HD-DVD is back! It makes me sick, this fanboy tardation is completely unfounded. Instead of realizing that the war just got dragged out a few more years, people are applauding. Clueless. Seriously whot he hell cares? I hope all the friggin studio's jump ship now to HD-DVD. Whatever as long as one bloody format wins and we can start buying in confidence.

But to those who want this format war to continue (Blu-ray or HD-DVD fanboys), you people are all lost or brain damaged.

Also the "Competition" card doesnt make any sense. There would still be plenty of competition if manufactures are all making the same type of drive.......

i'm format neutral and tend to visit both software forums many times a day...but at least for a week or so I'm steering clear of the blu-ray forum. You're right it's frightening over there.

I also completely agree with the "video-game mentality" It's very transparent and unfortunate. It's human behavior at its worst.

I layed out almost $1800cdn for a sony beta HI FI lol, and I didnt even go as nutts as some of them are. Its a format war and people who adopt early have to take there chances. Things can change in a drop of a dime(no pun intended). Atleast these days we have and should have some choices in combo players when its said and done. You would figure though some would calm down after they been sent to there room for a timeout. For now I picked a side that best suited me. In the end I will support what ever format as I luv movies and I luv HIDEF

During difficult times, one's true personality comes out.

For many BD fanboys, it turns out their personality is that of a 12 year old girl. :D

Format neutral is the place to be.

Did anyone notice that after the blu-ray version of blades of glory was canceled on Amazon, the full screen version jumped way up in stats? It makes you wonder what setup a lot of the PS3 crowd is using.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uVA7iEtPss

Typical Blu Ray user response...

It would seem the common thought is "one format is great as long as it's my format"

It would also seem a lot of the owners fit into the "PS3 so rulez, it p@wns all" mentality.

There forums over there remind me of some sort of virus outbreak from some sort of horror zombie movie right now lol.

There's a bluray forum?

That is crazy to think that because one format might lose you'd take a step back in technology and stay there.

"Yeah, man! I'm not going to support VHS! Now that I can't get any good Betamax tapes, I'm only going to the theater"

Seriously? You'd do that?

All early adopters run the risk of losing their initial investment, but they're what drives the market. I for one am in the HD camp because of Cost (a big one); and content (Lucas, Bladerunner, LoTR).

I cannot fathom the fanboy mentality of people who would only buy one player or nothing. If HD-DVD fails I would probably end up waiting a year or so but would eventually go to Blu-ray. And I'm not overly driven by brand, but would prefer not to buy a Sony player.

Blu Rayers had alot of fun these few months waiting for the death of HD DVD.
They sat there with their 33 pound heads and convinced the world that Sony is dominant.

Now that things are different; They revert back to what they know.

Bitching, Moaning and Complaining!

Like Shawn Michaels...Blu Rayers have lost their smile!

Blu Rayers had alot of fun these few months waiting for the death of HD DVD.
They sat there with their 33 pound heads and convinced the world that Sony is dominant.

Now that things are different; They revert back to what they know.

Bitching, Moaning and Complaining!

Like Shawn Michaels...Blu Rayers have lost their smile!

This post right here ^

Exactly what Im talking about

I think what most people fail to realize is, we just want this damn thing over. Period.

im pretty sure 95% of people dont really give a flying crap who ends up getting our money, but we would like to know that the format we buy is the one that sticks around. Myself i was leaning towards Blu-ray. Why you ask? Just because it was winning, and that is the only reason.

Nobody is "committing suicide" over this jump, it is just frustrating as a consumer to see this dragged out by these companies with ABSOLUELTY NO REGARD to the consumers. They really dont give a crap about us.

I can pretty much guarantee you none of these companies really care about you as a consumer. As long as they get as much money from you as possible they're happy. It's not just paramount and the HD DVD group. You're a early adopter, it's one of the risks you take by being on the bleeding edge of technology. I've spend $800 on a BD and HD player. It's possible one of them will die and at that point my investment would be gone. I knew that going in and I'm not upset by it. It's the nature of technology. Even with the Paramount news, BD players and movies will still be sold and the market will continue to its eventual destination.

At this point, both formats are still in their infancy, and with 1 format (with higher prices, less content, and no competition) there would be less of a demand for these products. So far the format war is good. BD prices fell, HD prices fell, and soon enough dual format players will fall and render each format utterly useless. Right now DVD, upscaling players, and a lack of education from CE companies and movie studios on what HDTV is all about are a way bigger roadblock to mass market penetration than 1 studio claiming neutrality.

There's a constant rotation of retardation on these boards. Wal-Mart to release cheap players, the sky is falling. Blockbuster to rent only blu-ray the world is ending, Paramount HD DVD exclusive the apocolypse is upon us. The maturity of AVS forum has dropped significantly the last year os so. Hopefully the mods will just start perma-banning people w/o warning.

LOL @ there boycotting paramount releases in HD and SD. Bunch of sore losers.

My favorite quote was by an OP in one of there boycott threads. " Paramount should be ashamed"

Well you should be ashamed for even backing Blu-ray then. Every studio was bought from the beginning, and now the tides turn a they cry foul.

I did my part today. Order every paramount release that i wanted, and bought a total of 26 HD-DVDs today.

I think what most people fail to realize is, we just want this damn thing over. Period.

actually, no. No doubt it would've been better for consumers if there had been no format war to begin with, and there were only one unified format.

But we are where we are today. I agree with the original poster. If we have to have a format war (and we do), then it's better if it goes on a bit more. A decisive victory by one camp now or in the near future would leave consumers in the other camp stranded. Let the war continue, and there'll be market incentive to produce affordable dual format players. Plus competition is good. A dragged out fight to a stalemate is better for the consumer.

I can pretty much guarantee you none of these companies really care about you as a consumer. As long as they get as much money from you as possible they're happy. It's not just paramount and the HD DVD group. You're a early adopter, it's one of the risks you take by being on the bleeding edge of technology. I've spend $800 on a BD and HD player. It's possible one of them will die and at that point my investment would be gone. I knew that going in and I'm not upset by it. It's the nature of technology. Even with the Paramount news, BD players and movies will still be sold and the market will continue to its eventual destination.

Im pretty sure this is exactly inline with what I said. Wouldn't it have been nice to know that your next player you bought would have been for the winning format?

At this point, both formats are still in their infancy, and with 1 format (with higher prices, less content, and no competition) there would be less of a demand for these products. So far the format war is good. BD prices fell, HD prices fell, and soon enough dual format players will fall and render each format utterly useless. Right now DVD, upscaling players, and a lack of education from CE companies and movie studios on what HDTV is all about are a way bigger roadblock to mass market penetration than 1 studio claiming neutrality.

Once again in todays accelerated Technology market and cycles, the format war is useless. With manufactures competing against each other, this includes the highly competitive Console market, the prices would be where that are at now.

Agreed about studio / technology education. This includes not muddying the waters with 2 formats....

LOL @ there boycotting paramount releases in HD and SD. Bunch of sore losers.

My favorite quote was by an OP in one of there boycott threads. " Paramount should be ashamed"

Well you should be ashamed for even backing Blu-ray then. Every studio was bought from the beginning, and now the tides turn a they cry foul.

I did my part today. Order every paramount release that i wanted, and bought a total of 26 HD-DVDs today.

What losers ? Dont you get it we are all losers in this? When did the Microsoft/Sony army draft you? Did they promise good benefits?

From now on I'm calling out the fanyboy posts with a :confused:

I don't care about the companies either. Thats why I chose HD DVD in the first place.
One does their research and then they decide what is best for them.

For me; It was the price and final specs plus the fact that HD DVD did it right the first time. Blu Ray DID NOT!

Its when it becomes a dictatorship, when someone tries to tell you what to buy and how much you are going to pay for it that it becomes a fight. Sony is NOT gonna make me pay $50.00 for Spiderman 3 (SORRY!)

actually, no. No doubt it would've been better for consumers if there had been no format war to begin with, and there were only one unified format.

But we are where we are today. I agree with the original poster. If we have to have a format war (and we do), then it's better if it goes on a bit more. A decisive victory by one camp now or in the near future would leave consumers in the other camp stranded. Let the war continue, and there'll be market incentive to produce affordable dual format players. Plus competition is good. A dragged out fight to a stalemate is better for the consumer.

So basically you contradicted yourself here. It would be better if there was no war, but since there is one its better?

And for crying out loud. Competition would be there without the war, as there has been for the last 1/2 century of electronics. Insanity I say...

:confused:

I sort of think Sony brought this on themself and some of there PS3 fans with there type of PR tatics. Most of all claiming they won the war and that HD DVD is dead. I did get HD DVD right? There seems to be one who gets upset if you get that or bluray wrong lol

I don't care about the companies either. Thats why I chose HD DVD in the first place.
One does their research and then they decide what is best for them.

For me; It was the price and final specs plus the fact that HD DVD did it right the first time. Blu Ray DID NOT!

Its when it becomes a dictatorship, when someone tries to tell you what to buy and how much you are going to pay for it that it becomes a fight. Sony is NOT gonna make me pay $50.00 for Spiderman 3 (SORRY!)

No idea the point you are making here sir.

No idea the point you are making here sir.


This one time at bandcamp!

Once again in todays accelerated Technology market and cycles, the format war is useless. With manufactures competing against each other, this includes the highly competitive Console market, the prices would be where that are at now.
Really, you mean like DVD players? Where the price drops were a) slow b) in lock step with each other. 1,000 -> 750 -> 500 -> 250..................until the Chinese players hit the scene.

Riddle me this - why are all entry level BD players relatively the same price? With so many different manufacturers I'd expect to see a price fight with so much "competition"

Once again in todays accelerated Technology market and cycles, the format war is useless. With manufactures competing against each other, this includes the highly competitive Console market, the prices would be where that are at now.

Agreed about studio / technology education. This includes not muddying the waters with 2 formats....

I don't have the numbers to back it up, but did DVD's prices get cut in half within the first year of it's release? I'm going to assume no. We went from $1000 BD players to $500 BD players in a year. Similarly we went from $500 to $250 on the HD front. Without the competition, I can't see these price reductions happending so quickly with only 1 format. The majority of people don't want to spend that type of money on DVD 2.0 when upscaled movies look good enough (those who even know upscaled DVD's exist). The competition in the console market (which has little to do with this convo) wouldn't have helped. The PS2 was released in 2000 for 299. 7 years later the system has only had a barely a 50% price reduction. That segment of the entertainment industry doesn't have price reductions as fast as DVD players.

As we both agree on education is a big hindrance. But the even bigger hindrance is price and DVDs. As an informed consumer I know the difference between HD, BD, component, HDMI, and numerous different acronyms and terms involved with HT. And if it wasnt for me wanting a PS3 to play video games on, theres no way in hell I would have payed $600 to watch movies. I wouldn't haven even payed $200. If I didn't have an Xbox 360, theres no way I would have spent $3-500 on an HD DVD player. Prices on both ends still have to drop significantly before anything will happen. The "format war" is the least of the concerns of getting HD movies to replace DVD. Education, Pricing, and overcoming DVD's massive install base are the real hurdles.

One of the reasons for the completely different mentality over there besides the current news is the dollar level of investment.

I have spent a great deal on HD DVD hardware but in truth that really only reflects the early adopter premium I paid for the XA2. Even at the $799 I paid for the XA2. I have 3 2G HD DVD players the last two were at $249 and $199 each.. I have the need to have players in 3 rooms. Something it is possible to do with HD DVD at current pricing.

But realistically this whole issue of investment risk is pretty silly, unless you are a teenager who spent $599 on a PS3, or an older HT enthusiast who paid $1600 for a Pioneer. In inflation adjusted dollars HD players are already dirt cheap compared to their predecessor along the same lifecycle adoption timeline. I will buy a BD player... but just one to get access to the blu exclusives until there is unification either by an outright win of one format, or cheap universal devices. In the long run these skirmishes don't mean much. I spent $1600 for a $27" Trinito Sony Console TV in 1981 or so. Figure that out in todays dollars. Unless you are the type who buys hundreds of movies there is just not that much to get upset about however this thing turns out.

I happen to believe we will see unfication via universal players which will mean that only Sony will ultimately use Blu Ray. Future versions of HD DVD will increase capacity some, and bandwidth some and it will address really all the artistic content concerns.. BD software investments will be maintained. HD DVD will also.. the only real sunk costs will be those who spent fortunes on the early BD players. The PS3 will be around along time so its residual value will be maintained. Pre profile 1.1 or maybe pre BD-Live standalones BD players will get the big depreciation hit and possibly 1st gen HD DVD players as well if they don't support advanced HD DVD media sizes with just firmware.

I'm having a comprehension disconnect. The BR forum is filled with people wailing, gnashing their teeth, and proclaiming that they are selling off all their BR players and discs and going back to DVD.

Uhhh, ok. I'll go back to watching crappy picture and listing to subpar audio... that'll show them! Mkay. Sure.

One studio going from neutral to exclusive now all of a sudden is the DOOM of all HD disc media forever.

Huh? What?

I can't tell if this is mass hysteria, mass stupidity, or a well-orchestrated response.




I vote "mass stupidity"

Well, some of us just want a single disc format to emerge as the clear standard and haven't really cared which side it is. I own a PS3 and no HD DVD player at the moment, but I'd be happy to see HD DVD quickly overtake Blu-ray, if that could speed adoption of HD movies among a larger segment of consumers.

The problem with the idea of a HD DVD victory, is that it will take quite some time, as Fox won't switch sides quickly even if HD DVD discs start to outsell BD, because they're lunatics about copy protection. If BD+ gets permanently broken, I don't think Fox would immediately go neutral, but rather stop releasing again and wait until HD disc sales are 5-10 times where they are now before they'd get back into the game. IMO Even if all the feasible prayers of this forum were answered(WB going HD only in the next quarter, Disney going neutral or HD only at CES, sub $149 players from China in October), the format battle still wouldn't be resolved in the eyes of the public for a least a year from now, and would probably take until 2009.

As for why I want the war to be over as quickly as possible, well, I'm afraid that
if it gets dragged out for years, that we'll end up with downloads/VOD only, which I'm not a big fan of(because of convenience, transportability, quality, etc). Hopefully this won't happen, and we can end up with a disc standard in the end.

The one thing I try to remember while reading AVS, is that arguing endlessly for hours on end about HD DVD/Blu-ray is all well and good on AVS, but 90%+ of HDTV owning consumers have no intention of buying into anything until peacetime.

Well, some of us just want a single disc format to emerge as the clear standard and haven't really cared which side it is. I own a PS3 and no HD DVD player at the moment, but I'd be happy to see HD DVD quickly overtake Blu-ray, if that could speed adoption of HD movies among a larger segment of consumers.

The problem with the idea of a HD DVD victory, is that it will take quite some time, as Fox won't switch sides quickly even if HD DVD discs start to outsell BD, because they're lunatics about copy protection. If BD+ gets permanently broken, I don't think Fox would immediately go neutral, but rather stop releasing again and wait until HD disc sales are 5-10 times where they are now before they'd get back into the game. IMO Even if all the feasible prayers of this forum were answered(WB going HD only in the next quarter, Disney going neutral or HD only at CES, sub $149 players from China in October), the format battle still wouldn't be resolved in the eyes of the public for a least a year from now, and would probably take until 2009.

As for why I want the war to be over as quickly as possible, well, I'm afraid that
if it gets dragged out for years, that we'll end up with downloads/VOD only, which I'm not a big fan of(because of convenience, transportability, quality, etc). Hopefully this won't happen, and we can end up with a disc standard in the end.

The one thing I try to remember while reading AVS, is that arguing endlessly for hours on end about HD DVD/Blu-ray is all well and good on AVS, but 90%+ of HDTV owning consumers have no intention of buying into anything until peacetime.

Screw Fox!

I only own HD DVD, but I didn't dump it at the Blockbuster announcement and I wouldn't dump BD at this announcement. Actually I'm waiting for a sub-$250 (non-Sony) BD player and I'll jump in on that side, too.
Same here.

Riddle me this - why are all entry level BD players relatively the same price? With so many different manufacturers I'd expect to see a price fight with so much "competition"

The opposite reason why there haven't been any non-Toshiba HD DVD players yet: Blu-ray companies are trying to sell their players for a profit(to a small market), and Toshiba is selling at roughly cost.

What am I missing?

i think it goes back to what happened with SACD's vs. DVD-A. Neither format eliminated the other, and neither ended up taking over the market, and now both are basically dead. The worry is that the same thing will happen with films- optical discs will fade out sooner rather than later if the HD format wars drag on much longer, and the paramount announcement means that the war WILL be longer than most blu ray fans were expecting. hence the angst.
And, though i've owned a toshiba a1 for much longer than i've had my ps3, i have to say i agree. i'm very worried that neither format will survive.

The problem with the idea of a HD DVD victory, is that it will take quite some time, as Fox won't switch sides quickly even if HD DVD discs start to outsell BD, because they're lunatics about copy protection.

Fox will switch sides if it becomes necessary or financially prudent. You need look no further than their approach to Divx/DVD 10 years ago to see how this could play out.

They didn't like the protection DVD offered either. But they eventually released on it and made a crapload of money over the past decade.

But we are where we are today. I agree with the original poster. If we have to have a format war (and we do), then it's better if it goes on a bit more. A decisive victory by one camp now or in the near future would leave consumers in the other camp stranded. Let the war continue, and there'll be market incentive to produce affordable dual format players. Plus competition is good. A dragged out fight to a stalemate is better for the consumer.

I don't really agree with you, but I do hope that dual format players drop more swiftly in price. I certainly thought they would be less than the combined costs of a Blu-ray and an HD DVD standalone.

There have been similar reactions from HD DVD supporters after announcements that swing towards Blu-ray (Blockbuster, Target, whatever). It's immature either way. Dual format = whatever. Single format = live with it.

Fox will switch sides if it becomes necessary or financially prudent.

Yes, that's what I was saying. That they would switch(or start releasing again despite broken copy protection) when the market gets to the point that they'd be losing out on too much money not to. But I don't think the market is at that point now, since Fox stopped releasing for six months, and are only planning on putting out titles again because of BD+. All I was saying is that they'd hold out until, say next fall or so, but that's a long time in this situation.

What am I missing?

Common sense? on a short term this is the worst thing that could happen for any movie fans.

Common sense? on a short term this is the worst thing that could happen for any movie fans.BD FUD

Some people think that these forums are filled with three types of folks: HD DVD folks, BD folks, and neutral folks. This is incorrect: there are four, the fourth being "one unified HD format" folks. These folks want HDM but only see it being viable if a single format were to emerge.

The upgrade from DVD is too weak, the difference between 720p and 1080p is to subtle, and the looming threat of digital downloads is too strong for a severely fractured HDM market to survive. The only way it had a shot was by acting swiftly, unifying, and gaining DVD-like momentum before Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and others start to get serious about digital distribution in HD.

So when some of us say "screw this, it's not happening" it's not a dig at HD DVD any more than it is at blu-ray. With content now perfectly split until at least 2009, there is no hope for even Laserdisc levels of adoption. HDM will not survive in that form. It's going to be one of the shortest lived formats ever (both of them: HD DVD and Blu-ray). So some of us are deciding it's not worth it to do the "build the library all over again" thing when it's only going to last roughly 3 years before the switch to the true DVD successor begins.

We're not whining and it has nothing to do with Blu vs. HD, just who we thought had the best shot of winning. It looked like Blu did, but now it looks like a stalemate, which means it's going to be 3 years of half-assed dual format support and then death. You can't fault people for wanting to just skip that whole affair.

Upconverted DVD, renting BD/HD DVD, and waiting 3 years is not too bad of an option, all things considered. I'll be sitting on a mountain of cash that I can spend on HD digital downloads from iTunes or whatever it ends up being.

While I agree with you to a certain extent I do take exception to the notion that the unified format was ever going to be BD...............for a LONG time. As you say HDM is a minor tweak (to most) & not revolutionary like DVD. People are not going to pay a lot for this upgrade = BD never stood a chance in this arena. It would seem that the BD fans believe "unified will speed adoption" except that current prices mean a slow adoption = VoD has all the time it needs to mature & kick HDM out of the market.

Pretty much of the same opinion, I just don't see how BD could/would/will carry the flag.

Common sense? on a short term this is the worst thing that could happen for any movie fans.

Oh please, that is complete bs. The worst thing to happen to movie fans is when Sony started these kind of format wars 25 years ago. You should be blaming Sony for this entire format war.

Common sense? on a short term this is the worst thing that could happen for any blu-ray fans.

Corrected above. Is that what you meant?

Because I can't see how any other "movie fans" would see this as a bad thing.

Those with only HD DVD players are happy. Those who are neutral don't care. And those that have yet to buy into HD media now have a strong exclusive supporter for the side with the least expensive hardware.

Looks like everyone wins except for the people who bought into BD exclusively. That's the chance you take when you pick sides. (It could have easily gone the other way...)

While I agree with you to a certain extent I do take exception to the notion that the unified format was ever going to be BD...............for a LONG time. As you say HDM is a minor tweak (to most) & not revolutionary like DVD. People are not going to pay a lot for this upgrade = BD never stood a chance in this arena. It would seem that the BD fans believe "unified will speed adoption" except that current prices mean a slow adoption = VoD has all the time it needs to mature & kick HDM out of the market.

Pretty much of the same opinion, I just don't see how BD could/would/will carry the flag.

Right, and that IS the point: we both wanted a single format and we chose a side based on who we thought had the best chance of accomplishing this. I could have cared less who it was: that was irrelevant. (The BD argument was that content would trump a few hundred dollars in player price, because J6P is more afraid of being wrong than paying money. I don't see a 50/50 content split fixing that.)

When i see posts of YESSS HD-DVD is back! It makes me sick, this fanboy tardation is completely unfounded. Instead of realizing that the war just got dragged out a few more years, people are applauding. Clueless. Seriously whot he hell cares? I hope all the friggin studio's jump ship now to HD-DVD. Whatever as long as one bloody format wins and we can start buying in confidence.


But exactly who are you to tell everyone else, including the mass of movie buying population, that BR HAD to be the unified/singular format? Why couldn't/can't it be HD DVD? Why can't any of these people see that this is just the pendulum swinging to the side that was always the logical choice in the first place?! Perhaps you could clear your vision and see that this could possibly end the format war SOONER than if HD DVD were to simply give up like so many were "hoping". At the current prices of BR tech overall, mass adoption would still be year(s) off, whereas HD DVD is on the brink. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

And those that have yet to buy into HD media now have a strong exclusive supporter for the side with the least expensive hardware.

And those who have yet to buy into HD media now see that content is split perfectly down the middle so they aren't sure what to support. So they choose neither.

But exactly who are you to tell everyone else, including the mass of movie buying population, that BR HAD to be the unified/singular format? Why couldn't/can't it be HD DVD? Why can't any of these people see that this is just the pendulum swinging to the side that was always the logical choice in the first place?! Perhaps you could clear your vision and see that this could possibly end the format war SOONER than if HD DVD were to simply give up like so many were "hoping". At the current prices of BR tech overall, mass adoption would still be year(s) off, whereas HD DVD is on the brink. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

HD DVD is not on the brink. The point was that whoever was to be the "victor" it had to happen relatively fast. With things as they are there is no chance of that, which means HDM is doomed to niche. Why the hell didn't HD DVD do this last year when it would have mattered...

This one time at bandcamp!

Too funny!

LOL @ there boycotting paramount releases in HD and SD. Bunch of sore losers.

My favorite quote was by an OP in one of there boycott threads. " Paramount should be ashamed"

Well you should be ashamed for even backing Blu-ray then. Every studio was bought from the beginning, and now the tides turn a they cry foul.

I did my part today. Order every paramount release that i wanted, and bought a total of 26 HD-DVDs today.

I have a friend who usually sends me "Blu Ray is winning, blah blah blah" articles via IM nearly every day (I have never sent him a single "HD DVD is <whatever>" article). Yesterday, he sent me the Paramount link (which I hadn't heard yet) and he was actually RANTING like this was done personally to him. He said he will not buy another Paramount product until it is released on BD. I told him he might be waiting a couple years.

He is VERY Sony biased. I asked him that if ALL things were equal (Studio support, PQ, AQ), EXCEPT using current HD and BD player pricing, which he would support, he STILL said Sony because he is a "Sony fan". I told him his POV was skewered and he responded that it wasn't. He thinks because he bought the PS3 he is entitled to having BD be the winner. Nevermind that he has only purchased 2 BD movies since launch. When I told him MSRP Spider-Man 3 was $50, he gasped. When I told him Fox titles MSRP are $40, he gasped. But he still wants to keep supporting that high-cost train ride.

It almost seems like Sony gives a dose of crack with each purchase of one of their products. Myself, I think Sony is great at innovation, and ****** on manufacturing/follow-through.

To a certain degree, sure. But having a war for the first year or two of HDM has been an advantage. I think it's pretty clear we have more content, better titles, and lower prices specifically *because* of the war.

The threads on the BD side are fascinating. I (and many others) have been saying for months that this is much closer than others would lead you to believe. The BD side seemed to think that the HD DVD side would just roll over and die for no reason other than it was currently lagging a bit. Just last week, I was pointing out how close this whole thing was (with only a 700k delta between software sales). You can crow about 60/40 or 2:1 ratios all you want, but if you’re only 700,000 titles ahead, you have a small lead. That’s it.

All it took was a single announcement by a single studio to turn this whole thing around. By definition, that means that HD DVD wasn't a "sinking ship" or a "dead format" or whatever other hyperbole has been thrown at it. It has REALLY shaken up the worldview that some of those folks had. A worldview that was unrealistically optimistic to begin with.

Totally agree.:cool:

But he still wants to keep supporting that high-cost train ride.

Where is this high cost your speaking off?

And at least your post shows that you hate sony as much as your friend loves them. Why else only mention Sony and not the other Blu-Ray backers?

Where is this high cost your speaking off?

And at least your post shows that you hate sony as much as your friend loves them. Why else only mention Sony and not the other Blu-Ray backers?

$50 SpiderMan 3
BD Standalone prices

"Really, you mean like DVD players? Where the price drops were a) slow b) in lock step with each other. 1,000 -> 750 -> 500 -> 250..................until the Chinese players hit the scene.

Riddle me this - why are all entry level BD players relatively the same price? With so many different manufacturers I'd expect to see a price fight with so much "competition"

The Riddle answer is common sense. You plan to see 300 dollar differences in price with similar feature sets? By the way your lock step seems to be exactly in line with whats happening now isnt it?

This is NOT the DVD format bring up, massive differences here with Consoles driving the Software sales, greater adoption of Digital Media, mandates for HDTV via Govt.

Also who here wouldnt pay $100 or more for a player knowing it would be the only format? The money here people is the bloody software... Stop being so short sighted

One of the reasons for the completely different mentality over there besides the current news is the dollar level of investment.

I have spent a great deal on HD DVD hardware but in truth that really only reflects the early adopter premium I paid for the XA2. Even at the $799 I paid for the XA2. I have 3 2G HD DVD players the last two were at $249 and $199 each.. I have the need to have players in 3 rooms. Something it is possible to do with HD DVD at current pricing.

But realistically this whole issue of investment risk is pretty silly, unless you are a teenager who spent $599 on a PS3, or an older HT enthusiast who paid $1600 for a Pioneer. In inflation adjusted dollars HD players are already dirt cheap compared to their predecessor along the same lifecycle adoption timeline. I will buy a BD player... but just one to get access to the blu exclusives until there is unification either by an outright win of one format, or cheap universal devices. In the long run these skirmishes don't mean much. I spent $1600 for a $27" Trinito Sony Console TV in 1981 or so. Figure that out in todays dollars. Unless you are the type who buys hundreds of movies there is just not that much to get upset about however this thing turns out.

I happen to believe we will see unfication via universal players which will mean that only Sony will ultimately use Blu Ray. Future versions of HD DVD will increase capacity some, and bandwidth some and it will address really all the artistic content concerns.. BD software investments will be maintained. HD DVD will also.. the only real sunk costs will be those who spent fortunes on the early BD players. The PS3 will be around along time so its residual value will be maintained. Pre profile 1.1 or maybe pre BD-Live standalones BD players will get the big depreciation hit and possibly 1st gen HD DVD players as well if they don't support advanced HD DVD media sizes with just firmware.

And here is the true reason for the rabid fanboyism. Buyer's regret.

Why the hell didn't HD DVD do this last year when it would have mattered...

Because they were stupid. In the end corporations act like people, just with more money. How many times have you seen people bid on Ebay, and not raise their bid until someone else bids more, and then if they lose the item, they go crazy. Then why the heck didn't you bid more to start with?

The reason HD DVD did not do it last year was probably because they were looking good and didn't want to spend the money. They did it now because they had it do it. Another question is "Why don't they buy off Warner right now?". Are they gonna try to save the money and wait until they feel they have no choice again? Probably.

If I were them, I'd give Warner 250MM right now to come on board exclusively. They've been spending next to nothing for a year. Start spending some dough.

$50 SpiderMan 3
BD Standalone prices

You know Spidey 3 2-Disc Bluray is on Amazon.com for 30 US right? You know this right?

3 bucks more then the Blades of Glory HD-DVD (Single Disc)......................................Wow thats crazy pricing dammit

:confused:

But exactly who are you to tell everyone else, including the mass of movie buying population, that BR HAD to be the unified/singular format? Why couldn't/can't it be HD DVD? Why can't any of these people see that this is just the pendulum swinging to the side that was always the logical choice in the first place?! Perhaps you could clear your vision and see that this could possibly end the format war SOONER than if HD DVD were to simply give up like so many were "hoping". At the current prices of BR tech overall, mass adoption would still be year(s) off, whereas HD DVD is on the brink. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

Did you even read what I wrote? Did you see Blu-ray and let your rabid fanboy fangs start salivating from mindless devotion to a product designed to screw you over?

I said in the damn quote you used. I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS as long as someone wins. If you are going to quote me at least read what the hell I wrote?

For the record.

I own a PS3
Toshiba HD-A2
Xbox 360 drive HD-DVD

If the Paramount announcement would of never came, Spiderman 3 would of stayed at $50.00. Thats what this Blu Ray is all about.
They have to be competitive and bring those prices down!

Now...If they can do that with their Blu Ray Players then we are talking.

You know Spidey 3 2-Disc Bluray is on Amazon.com for 30 US right? You know this right?

3 bucks more then the Blades of Glory HD-DVD (Single Disc)......................................Wow thats crazy pricing dammit

:confused:

I think you got it wrong, the price is 10000 dollars..!

Not that i expected a good example from our friend.

If the Paramount announcement would of never came, Spiderman 3 would of stayed at $50.00. Thats what this Blu Ray is all about.
They have to be competitive and bring those prices down!

Now...If they can do that with their Blu Ray Players then we are talking.

Yes I always pay full MSRP for all my goods. That is called shopping. Called street prices. Called Common sense.

And I love the complete avoidance of the fact that I dont care whether Blu-ray tanks or HD-DVD does................... Just as long as one does.

And the Blu-ray player player price complaining is a joke. Because you never once mention the PS3, which completely invalidates your argument.

I'm having a comprehension disconnect. The BR forum is filled with people wailing, gnashing their teeth, and proclaiming that they are selling off all their BR players and discs and going back to DVD.

Well, it's not like there's any _games_ for PS3 that are worth buying yet.. Except maybe for _Dragon's Lair_ ;)

(Halo 3, Mass Effect, Bioshock (TODAY!), Beautiful Katamari... But I digress...)

Well, it's not like there's any _games_ for PS3 that are worth buying yet.. Except maybe for _Dragon's Lair_ ;)

(Halo 3, Mass Effect, Bioshock (TODAY!), Beautiful Katamari... But I digress...)

And Red Herring numner 3453453545. No games for PS3! Because that is sooo relevent to this conversation about Format wars.

Please get a new record, we are all tied of hearing this one. :rolleyes:

Dogs and Cats....living together....MASS HYSTERIA!!

I'm having a comprehension disconnect. The BR forum is filled with people wailing, gnashing their teeth, and proclaiming that they are selling off all their BR players and discs and going back to DVD.

Uhhh, ok. I'll go back to watching crappy picture and listing to subpar audio... that'll show them! Mkay. Sure.

One studio going from neutral to exclusive now all of a sudden is the DOOM of all HD disc media forever.

Huh? What?

I can't tell if this is mass hysteria, mass stupidity, or a well-orchestrated response.

I've thought from the beginning that this "format war" was not going to be done overnight, that we would see defections and realignments in both directions. The overall numbers are so small that anything can happen.

What I'm not getting is why is it that ONLY BR can win the war, otherwise it's the end for all of us. I honestly don't understand that point of view.

It's seems to me to be a bunch of petulant, childish, "I don' wanna play no more! I'm going HOME! MOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYY!!!!"

I've been seeing this same sort of response on an isolated basis from individual HD-DVD owners any time new sales figures or press reports come out from the BDA. Are people so insecure in their choice of format? Does one format capitulating somewhere down the road mean that players and discs of the opposing format suddenly cease to function?

Am I the only one that thinks that the longer this format war goes on, the better for everyone concerned? IMO the industry will ultimately converge on dual-format players.

The longer this goes on, the LESS LIKELY that owners of either format will be left out in the cold with respect to replacement hardware being available on a long-term basis.

I'll admit that there have been a few times that I've been concerned that if HD-DVD bought the farm, especially early, that within a few years there would be no source of replacement players in the event my 1st- or 2nd-generation HD-DVD players bit the dust. The longer this war goes on, and the more players that are sold, the less likely this eventuality is... for either side.

Continued competition will also drive down the price of both hardware and software... yet I see people saying this is a bad thing... another position that I can't fathom.

Is owning both formats so anathema to some people that it's not an option? I seriously get the feeling that some BR supporters WANT both formats to fail rather then either HD-DVD winning, or format coexistence.

As a fan of HD movies of both flavors, my mind reels at the reaction I'm seeing.

What am I missing?

I own both formats though I will admit I heavily favor HD-DVD because of what i believe are obvious and leigitimate reasons demonstrated by the medium /format.Those that are 'wailing and gnashing their teeth" over in the BlueRay forum are mainly PS3 owning Sony Fanboys.I don't like putting it like that, but those are the people that are making all the noise about "both HD formats are now doomed to fail!" and "we're going back to dvd and will NEVER support HD DVD!".They obviously weren't alive during the VHS/Betamax days ad don't think logicly in any way and would rather throw tantrums.For many the reason is because they perceive this as an attack on Sony and their PS3s and not so much as bad news for the BR format in general.Most people don't think like fanboys and that's the reason we cannot understand why they are freaking out the way they are.

Did you even read what I wrote? Did you see Blu-ray and let your rabid fanboy fangs start salivating from mindless devotion to a product designed to screw you over?

I said in the damn quote you used. I DO NOT CARE WHO WINS as long as someone wins. If you are going to quote me at least read what the hell I wrote?

For the record.

I own a PS3
Toshiba HD-A2
Xbox 360 drive HD-DVD

Yeah, actually I did. I read your whole string of comments and understand that you don't care who wins, but that it is your STRONG opinion (based on multiple posts) that BR was the clear choice for a unified format. Statements you make are such that it is now a guarantee that the "war" will languish on. MY point is that it MIGHT just be the opposite - that this is actually what was needed to in fact end the war.

Now, I am far from a fanboy. I just think some need to check their opinions and state them as just that, instead of making statements based on no economic reason.

Sorry if I was attacking you though. For the record, I only own HD DVD currently - no reason to hide that. I am perfectly willing to buy into BR when the price is right for me. Honestly though, this changes little for me. Paramount/DW titles were going to be available to HD DVD anyway. All I am commenting on is how people make a broad assumption that this WILL drag things out. Perhaps the opposite? Can anyone entertain that?

Most enthusiasts want as much content available to them at the least cost.

Wars prevent this and also turn off consumers from getting involved in either format.

Waiting the wars out can easily mean that both camps lose by continuing to be locked in a death match, so long that neither ends up as the replacement for DVD.

With technology moving so fast, something will shift away from disc based medium to something else, hopefully with a unified format and playback mechanism.

Imagine where HDTV would be if people had to buy 720p or 1080i capable sets and could only get the programming offered by those networks broadcasting in that format.

HDTV sales would be where HD disc systems are today.

Great way to sum it up. My thought's exactly.......

"Really, you mean like DVD players? Where the price drops were a) slow b) in lock step with each other. 1,000 -> 750 -> 500 -> 250..................until the Chinese players hit the scene.

Riddle me this - why are all entry level BD players relatively the same price? With so many different manufacturers I'd expect to see a price fight with so much "competition"

The Riddle answer is common sense. You plan to see 300 dollar differences in price with similar feature sets? By the way your lock step seems to be exactly in line with whats happening now isnt it?

Also who here wouldnt pay $100 or more for a player knowing it would be the only format? The money here people is the bloody software... Stop being so short sighted
Apparently it got lost in translation. That's my point on the BD side it's exactly like DVD's launch. Several manufacturers & all the prices were relatively the same..........for a long time, until the Chinese players came on the market. Basically my point was that though there are a few CE's on the BD side there is no real competition driving the prices down.

The question isn't who wouldn't pay the $100 but who would? To most HDM is a slight tweak of an existing format = they'll pay very little for the upgrade.

This is why I would prefer BD to tank,or really be used for games & storage where it belongs. Sony can stick to pushing that overpriced console for as long as they choose. Give me the consumer friendly economical choice everytime.

Because 90% of those who has a BR-player, really just owns a PS3 (Not a stand-alone player). Therefore, if BR fails PS3 is no more than a brick.

And for crying out loud. Competition would be there without the war, as there has been for the last 1/2 century of electronics. Insanity I say...


Well, I'd rather have format competition than be stuck with a format that isn't finalized. There may be Bluray discs released after the spec is finalized that won't play completely on players sold today. HDDVD, with its mandatory spec (which includes AVC/VC-1 and TrueHD), will play every disc ever released now forever (except maybe for TL51 if it ever devaporizes). And it's not just firmware updates: few if any Bluray players have all the hardware that HDDVD has. The casual observer frets about the fighting and sees only the Bluray capacity bulletpoint. The casual observer is ignorant.

If ending the format war means forcing people to accept a half-baked and incomplete format, then I say once more unto the breach, dear friends!

(and there's one thing that even the casual observer couldn't deny: a $199 player. Fingers crossed...)

What losers ? Dont you get it we are all losers in this? When did the Microsoft/Sony army draft you? Did they promise good benefits?

From now on I'm calling out the fanyboy posts with a :confused:

Look at my post history. I have never hidden my intentions, im an HD-DVD support period, you can see why in many of my posts. Im not going to reiterate why i will not support the BDA, but i feel the same way as many other HD-DVD supporters. And fyi, it has nothing to do with brand loyalty, im a Sony TV whore.

And im sorry, i dont understand how we are all losers. We are now closer to having a unified format, which was the format from the begining, designed by the dvd forum; HD-DVD.

Oh and one more thing. pot calling the kettle black, to funny. At least i dont try and hide my intentions.

And Red Herring numner 3453453545. No games for PS3! Because that is sooo relevent to this conversation about Format wars.


Actually, it is, because as soon as games are widely available people will start using it more for its actual intended purpose instead of as Just Another Movie Player.. There's a reason it's called Playstation and not Moviestation.. And the attach rate (that studios care and make decisions about) will go down as folks play more games and watch fewer movies, while the attach rate for dedicated players should stay the same or increase as more films are available..

And who rules Dedicatedplayertown?! HDDVD BLASTER!

Please get a new record, we are all tied of hearing this one. :rolleyes:

You might try telling Sony that?

Yeah, actually I did. I read your whole string of comments and understand that you don't care who wins, but that it is your STRONG opinion (based on multiple posts) that BR was the clear choice for a unified format. Statements you make are such that it is now a guarantee that the "war" will languish on. MY point is that it MIGHT just be the opposite - that this is actually what was needed to in fact end the war.

Now, I am far from a fanboy. I just think some need to check their opinions and state them as just that, instead of making statements based on no economic reason.

Sorry if I was attacking you though. For the record, I only own HD DVD currently - no reason to hide that. I am perfectly willing to buy into BR when the price is right for me. Honestly though, this changes little for me. Paramount/DW titles were going to be available to HD DVD anyway. All I am commenting on is how people make a broad assumption that this WILL drag things out. Perhaps the opposite? Can anyone entertain that?

I was hoping that when i stated the only reason I back PS3 was due to their current postion that would have been enough. I really and truly do not care who wins, only format I will back will be the winning one. I do this because I want to further it along to the goal of eliminating the other.

I cannot see how a studio jumping over to the "currently" losing format is going to speed up the demise of either format.

Apparently it got lost in translation. That's my point on the BD side it's exactly like DVD's launch. Several manufacturers & all the prices were relatively the same..........for a long time, until the Chinese players came on the market. Basically my point was that though there are a few CE's on the BD side there is no real competition driving the prices down.

The question isn't who wouldn't pay the $100 but who would? To most HDM is a slight tweak of an existing format = they'll pay very little for the upgrade.

This is why I would prefer BD to tank,or really be used for games & storage where it belongs. Sony can stick to pushing that overpriced console for as long as they choose. Give me the consumer friendly economical choice everytime.

The thing is if only one format was around all the CE's would be building those wouldn't they.

I was hoping that when i stated the only reason I back PS3 was due to their current postion that would have been enough. I really and truly do not care who wins, only format I will back will be the winning one. I do this because I want to further it along to the goal of eliminating the other.

I cannot see how a studio jumping over to the "currently" losing format is going to speed up the demise of either format.


Losing format, get your head checked. HD-DVD attach rates speak for them selves. Both are also in the infancy, and neither format is winning, neither is losing. The war hasn't even started yet. And say one is pulling ahead, you expect the other side to just put up a white flag?

Because 90% of those who has a BR-player, really just owns a PS3 (Not a stand-alone player). Therefore, if BR fails PS3 is no more than a brick.

This makes no logical sense what so ever. This is the same for both sides.

1) PS3 = gaming unit so if Blu fails, you still have a PS3
2) If you have a HD-DVD drive for your xbox .....

Look at my post history. I have never hidden my intentions, im an HD-DVD support period, you can see why in many of my posts. Im not going to reiterate why i will not support the BDA, but i feel the same way as many other HD-DVD supporters. And fyi, it has nothing to do with brand loyalty, im a Sony TV whore.

And im sorry, i dont understand how we are all losers. We are now closer to having a unified format, which was the format from the begining, designed by the dvd forum; HD-DVD.

Oh and one more thing. pot calling the kettle black, to funny. At least i dont try and hide my intentions.

Id like to know how Im the kettle in this situation, If I own both....

And I would like to know how we are closer to a single format if the exclusive studio support just evened up

Where is this high cost your speaking off?

And at least your post shows that you hate sony as much as your friend loves them. Why else only mention Sony and not the other Blu-Ray backers?

As I stated, the Fox titles are higher, Spider-Man 3 (at the time) was higher, BD hardware is higher. BD+ may have an unseen higher cost in the long run. Not to mention the extremely likely loss of functionality when the (ummm) final BD spec is actually implemented later in the year.

I mention Sony specifically because if you cut the main head off, the rest of the body will cease to function. If Sony didn't back BD who else would?

Losing format, get your head checked. HD-DVD attach rates speak for them selves. Both are also in the infancy, and neither format is winning, neither is losing. The war hasn't even started yet. And say one is pulling ahead, you expect the other side to just put up a white flag?

And I would like to say that ignoring such thing as software sales figures might be bad for your arguments.

Also for the umpteenth time, my whole point is

Format war = bad

Not

Blu-ray > HD-DVD

Push the side that is ahead, like the one selling 2:1 media. I wonder if the Studios care about money? Like free money from Microsoft.

I only own HD DVD, but I didn't dump it at the Blockbuster announcement and I wouldn't dump BD at this announcement. Actually I'm waiting for a sub-$250 (non-Sony) BD player and I'll jump in on that side, too.

I agree 100% in this statement. I prefer HD DVD (own an A2) but would happily buy a sub $200 Blu Ray player if available. Really the only reason I prefer HD DVD is because it is region free and the quality of the video transfer is usually better. Otherwise I could care less who wins but I think this xmas should prove to be a VERY interesting battle in the war.

Losing format, get your head checked. HD-DVD attach rates speak for them selves. Both are also in the infancy, and neither format is winning, neither is losing. The war hasn't even started yet. And say one is pulling ahead, you expect the other side to just put up a white flag?

You are absolutely correct. I am reminded of novels such as the Red Badge of Courage in which the young soldiers engage in a minor skirmish, but they think they have now seen "war." Both Sony and Toshiba knew what they would face, and I am certain that both sides are prepared for years of competition. The idea that one side would surrender after a minor engagement was always naive. I only own HD DVD at the moment but still plan to buy a Blu-ray player next spring. If you are so extreme that you will support only one side, you are only punishing only yourself. I want movies exclusive to both sides, so I will ultimately have two players. However, the fact that HD DVD is region free truly appeals to me. Certain foreign films such as Le Pacte des Loups are probably years away from a US release, but are availabe now on HD DVD!

Actually, it is, because as soon as games are widely available people will start using it more for its actual intended purpose instead of as Just Another Movie Player.. There's a reason it's called Playstation and not Moviestation.. And the attach rate (that studios care and make decisions about) will go down as folks play more games and watch fewer movies, while the attach rate for dedicated players should stay the same or increase as more films are available..

And who rules Dedicatedplayertown?! HDDVD BLASTER!



You might try telling Sony that?

Let me ask again, what in gods name does this have to do with the format war. Especially with 2:1 sales in movies! Attach rates! How about dollar signs.

Also once again

Format War = Bad

Fanboys = bad

NOT

Blu > HD-DVD

or

PS3 > Xbox 360

Push the side that is ahead, like the one selling 2:1 media. I wonder if the Studios care about money? Like free money from Microsoft.
With 5 times the number of players on the market............but then you'd have to accept the reality that attach rates matter. And push what? Given the current cost of BD players (not likely to see mass adoption anytime soon) = bullet train to oblivion.

The only thing proven by the software sales is that the PS3 can not carry the flag for media adoption. It would seem, as in the past, the public won't buy into the console as a movie machine (yet).

Let me ask again, what in gods name does this have to do with the format war. Especially with 2:1 sales in movies! Attach rates! How about dollar signs.


I should have put the two posts I had together.. Not only is the attach rate important as a non-technical point, but my comments on the flawed and incomplete bluray spec are relevant as a purely technical issue.


Also once again

Format War = Bad


Not if the final "winning" format is incomplete, half-baked and/or the more consumer-unfriendly option. If BD+ gets pushed thru to keep Fox happy, will that be better for consumers if Bluray finally "wins"?

Format wars are only bad if one of the formats should just go and die already. There are technical arguments for both Bluray (capacity) and HDDVD (superior mandatory spec), neither is obviously flawed like DivX. And winning the technical argument doesn't necessarily mean success is guaranteed or deserved, as history has shown.

With 5 times the number of players on the market............but then you'd have to accept the reality that attach rates matter. And push what? Given the current cost of BD players (not likely to see mass adoption anytime soon) = bullet train to oblivion.

The only thing proven by the software sales is that the PS3 can not carry the flag for media adoption. It would seem, as in the past, the public won't buy into the console as a movie machine (yet).

So let me get this straight...

Attach rate is more important then Money/Cash/Numbers? Does anybody really believe this? How can you fool yourself into thinking it is more important?

Also to summarize your BD Player point:"

5 times the number of costly players are not going to be mass adopted anytime soon. They are on the bullet train to oblivion.

As a Blu-ray supporter and PS3 owner, here's my take:

I don't get why the BD forum is going so crazy about this announcement. 90% of the folks in there own PS3's as their BD player, so even if EVERY studio jumped ship, they would still have a pretty nice media/game console.

I just built a big HT in my basement. I personally was a nintendo guy growing up, so I grew up hating Sony, not to mention all their DRM bs. I was really NOT wanting to buy a PS3, but I really wanted some HD format player for my movie theater. After doing all the research I figured the format "war" could go either way, so I thought I'd get something that would not give me a bad taste in my mouth if the format I picked, lost. I thought an xbox 360 was out because I've had 3 friends already with the RRoD problem. So I went with a PS3. That way I got a BD player, and as a backup I got a console. I figured if BD lost, then I could always go out and buy a HDDVD player for sub-$300.

I don't necessarily like this announcement today, b/c this whole format war is kind of ridiculous, but for the BD folks to bitch and moan is even more ridiculous, considering all the exclusive titles they have.

I do think this whole HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray forum stuff is pretty stupid. We are all on AVSForums, we all get REALLY good information from this forum, so we should all try to be friendly to each other. So even if one side or the other are being immature, we should try our best to turn the other cheek. In the end we will all be on the same format, whether we like it or not.

I should have put the two posts I had together.. Not only is the attach rate important as a non-technical point, but my comments on the flawed and incomplete bluray spec are relevant as a purely technical issue.



Not if the final "winning" format is incomplete, half-baked and/or the more consumer-unfriendly option. If BD+ gets pushed thru to keep Fox happy, will that be better for consumers if Bluray finally "wins"?

Format wars are only bad if one of the formats should just go and die already. There are technical arguments for both Bluray (capacity) and HDDVD (superior mandatory spec), neither is obviously flawed like DivX. And winning the technical argument doesn't necessarily mean success is guaranteed or deserved, as history has shown.


Soooo Format war = bad?

I think we're talking at crossed points here - my only point is that the "2:1" sales lead (which according to actual sales is really 1.46:1) only shows one thing & that is that the PS3 (which dominates the BD side) is not a viable long term movie platform. No matter how you want to spin the numbers you simply can't sell enough consoles to make it viable.

That way I got a BD player, and as a backup I got a console. I figured if BD lost, then I could always go out and buy a HDDVD player for sub-$300.
Yep, and exactly the opposite for me. I figured that I got into HDM on a budget & if the format failed so what? It would still play the movies I own AND it upscales nicely, one less feature I'd need to check when looking at a BD player.

Short version = I bought in knowing it could be a brick (but hey I never bought a Betamax so I guess I'm ahead)

Soooo Format war = bad?

Yeah.. Bluray should go and die already!

;)

Short version = I bought in knowing it could be a brick (but hey I never bought a Betamax so I guess I'm ahead)

Heh, I decided based on what was available at or shortly after the time (_The Big Lebowski_ was the main decider) but I have to say the XA2 does a real good job of upconverting, better than my TV's internal coder (and the TV isn't half bad itself).. I'm fixin' to pick up the XBox HDDVD to bring out to my sister's house, they just got a 65" 1080p plasma and they have no HD media yet except for Cablevision box... Time to see if the external player will handle _300_ without freezing ;)

I think we're talking at crossed points here - my only point is that the "2:1" sales lead (which according to actual sales is really 1.46:1) only shows one thing & that is that the PS3 (which dominates the BD side) is not a viable long term movie platform. No matter how you want to spin the numbers you simply can't sell enough consoles to make it viable.


Yep, and exactly the opposite for me. I figured that I got into HDM on a budget & if the format failed so what? It would still play the movies I own AND it upscales nicely, one less feature I'd need to check when looking at a BD player.

Short version = I bought in knowing it could be a brick (but hey I never bought a Betamax so I guess I'm ahead)

This isnt about the long term, its about currently reality about current player base and ending the war as quickly as possible. With more media sales and larger installed player base, Blu *had* the best chance of ending this quickly. And thats why I would push the format with a better chance of ending this stupidity.

Yeah.. Bluray should go and die already!

;)

Well breakthrough we agreed on a possible outcome. Now no more Fanboyism dammit

That being said when the hell is Dell gonna deliver my new Xbox 360 elite.

This isnt about the long term, its about currently reality about current player base and ending the war as quickly as possible. With more media sales and larger installed player base, Blu *had* the best chance of ending this quickly. And thats why I would push the format with a better chance of ending this stupidity.

Does that mean you think HD DVD should have won when it had the lead in 2006?

Why the hell didn't HD DVD do this last year when it would have mattered...

They didn't need to last year.
A. PS3 didn't become a force, and make BD one, until the 06 holidays.
B. HDTV penetration reached 30% on the 06 holiday sales and is expect to hit 50% with the 07 holidays. Why spend the money when the display base isn't there? They just secured Paramount and DreamWorks for the 2nd and 3rd holiday seasons. A lot more HDM players will be sold this year and next than last year.
C. the HDM market just passed VHS for sales in the last month so why spend the money on a product that wasn't selling? I think CR and 300 showed that HDMs can sell.

The only group it effected was early adoptors tha bought BD and that is only if HD wins in the end. HD wants to the leading format at the end not just for the EAs.

I am a HD DVD owner that has planned for some time to go format neutral. This to have a broader access to movies. I am delighted by the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement. My reason for adopting HD DVD was price. It finally came into my price range. I won't go BD till the hardware does the same. I believe that the events yesterday will expedite the process. Bluray will now have to drop their prices to or below HD DVD. In turn software will also fall in price as the so called war enters the Xmas season. In my opinion, we consumers are the winners. I see HD as an afford ability issue. The lower the price the greater the acceptance. With both formats dropping their prices HD and BD will be embraced by more people. In the end we all win.

Ending this "war" just for the sake of ending it is way too short-sighted for me. I'm all for letting it play itself out. Let the studios jump back and forth and let the consumer decide. Personally I'm in the red camp, but if Blu wins out and is the only game in town, that's the game I'm gonna have to play.

This isnt about the long term, its about currently reality about current player base and ending the war as quickly as possible. With more media sales and larger installed player base, Blu *had* the best chance of ending this quickly. And thats why I would push the format with a better chance of ending this stupidity.
Okay, lets theorize -

The war is over & BD won. Now what?

We have $450 players for at least a year = no sale to the public.

Next year prices "fall" to $300 = = no sale to the public.

Year after price is $250 - finally sales start to increase...............

Year after price finally reaches crital mass, $200 = = sales take off.

(4 years, close to DVD adoption - which is what the BD group wanted, maximize profits for as long as possible)

CR*P, VoD has had time to mature & day/date releases are killing media sales.

Wow, glad that happened.

Does that mean you think HD DVD should have won when it had the lead in 2006?

yes that is when I purchased my 1st HDM playback device a Xbox 360 HD-DVD Player

CR*P, VoD has had time to mature & day/date releases are killing media sales.

Wow, glad that happened.

To be fair, there will be no such thing as 1080p video on demand for a long long time, because the US broadband market is such a complete and utter clusterf--k, and it's in the interests of the broadband people (Verizon, Comcast, etc.) and the politicians they own for it to remain so.

When you have 100mbps at $20/month like the Koreans or Japanese, then you will have 1080p on demand. And I find it far more likely that HDDVD players will hit $99 before we have that sort of broadband in the US.

Push the side that is ahead, like the one selling 2:1 media.

*This* is exactly the argument that has blinded the BD forums for the past few months.

Software sales right now -- for both formats -- are pathetic (but growing). They haven't even sold 4 million titles across both formats. And the sides are only separated by 700,000 sales.

When a format has 1.6 million players out there (yes, I'm including the PS3) and can only scare up 2.4 million titles sold... it isn't "ahead". Not in any meaningful sense.


This "war" is still wide open. The BD folks would expect HD DVD to just curl up and die because of those 700,000 extra titles sold. I think that's silly -- especially when hardware costs favor HD DVD.

This holiday season, HD DVD and BD will have roughly the same number of movies available, and an equal number of exclusives -- and HD DVD hardware will be cheaper. Why should BD be the side that gets pushed? Why not push the side with the cheaper hardware?


Ultimately, the consumers will decide this. And I think you're either going to see them sit back and wait... or buy the player that's under $200.

Ideally, it would have been wonderful to launch with a single format so people didn't run the risk of "backing the wrong horse". But that's not what happened and we can't time travel back to change that.

Ideally, it would have been wonderful to launch with a single format so people didn't run the risk of "backing the wrong horse". But that's not what happened and we can't time travel back to change that.

And, to be even fairer, wasn't the HDDVD spec initiated first, with Sony coming on later because they wanted the proprietary format $$ (like they got with Betamax, Memory Stick, Minidisc... Old habits die hard)? IIRC Sony started the war by not playing nice with the DVD forum? Or am I misremembering (which is entirely possible)?

Yes, I have said this before, but the 2 to 1 Blu-ray advantage is not yet significant because 2 times almost nothing is--still almost nothing!

Okay, lets theorize -

The war is over & BD won. Now what?

We have $450 players for at least a year = no sale to the public.

Next year prices "fall" to $300 = = no sale to the public.

Year after price is $250 - finally sales start to increase...............

Year after price finally reaches crital mass, $200 = = sales take off.

(4 years, close to DVD adoption - which is what the BD group wanted, maximize profits for as long as possible)

CR*P, VoD has had time to mature & day/date releases are killing media sales.

Wow, glad that happened.


So 4 years of uncertainty and confusing format wars is going to speed along mass adoption rates.

Also what makes you think cheap players will not be available next year? Especially if the Manufacturing lines all producing BD in volume?

Id like to know how Im the kettle in this situation, If I own both....

And I would like to know how we are closer to a single format if the exclusive studio support just evened up


Because you true intentions are in your posts. What you say you own means nothing, how you portray yourself in your posts speaks volumes. Look at how many times you have come back to this thread? IF you really wanted one format, you would have stuck with HD-DVD from the beginning, since there were no blu-ray players even out.

I don't hide my intentions, i am appalled at how the BDA has handled this war. If you even bothered to look at many of my posts, you will see im am in this with an ethical standpoint, not a fanboy standpoint. And you keep arguing thinking that us HD-DVD supporters are going to reiterate and entire year of posts, just to argue with you.

And yes, we are much closer to HD-DVD being the customer choice the holiday season with lower player prices, equal studio support, finalized specs etc. The PS3 effect is gone or dwindling, and no one in there right mind will buy a standalone Blu-ray players when HD-DVD offers more for way less.

And i also believe that the format war has brought great things for both camps. HD-DVD and blu-ray players have dropped in price, and it has also forced the quality to go up. Blu-rays first disk were crap.

You will have your one format, and it will be HD-DVD.

So 4 years of uncertainty and confusing format wars is going to speed along mass adoption rates.

Also what makes you think cheap players will not be available next year? Especially if the Manufacturing lines all producing BD in volume?

Again, you make a statement as fact (which really should just be your opinion/speculation), then follow it up with speculation. BOTH should be speculation. Just as I can speculate that the tide turning could bring HD DVD as the current front runner. Just as I'd like to speculate that lower hardware prices (i.e. cost to get in) bring in the masses. And I DON"T have to speculate as to which side is closer TODAY to mass market pricing. Give me BR mass market pricing tomorrow, and I'll buy, and I'd speculate that move would cause ongoing "war". Whose fault would that be then? The BDA?

I actually really want to find a really cheap BR player, so I can have it all. Now.

You will have your one format, and it will be HD-DVD.Now its looking like this is a real possibility. What is strange is none of the Blu-Ray fans can even grasp that HD DVD *could* win it. Even if its chances of winning are 35%, thats still a chance.

When I got into this HD game I went in prepared for one format to lose. Of course I am hoping HD DVD pulls through, but I can accept that nothing is certain. To me, it seems like for BD fans its either Blu-Ray or the highway. Now, all of a sudden, both formats will be niche forever. How quickly the tides turn.

Are people really this insane?Only the Blu people...sorry, I just couldn't resist...

I don't get why the BD forum is going so crazy about this announcement. 90% of the folks in there own PS3's as their BD player,



You answered this with your next statement, IMO.

You answered this with your next statement, IMO.

Heh, Sony fans are still pissed off about iPod stealing Minidisc's glory, SD stealing Memory Stick's glory, XBox 360 and Wii stealing PS3's glory, LG/Samsung/Vizio/et al. stealing Trinitron's glory.. The true diehard Sony fans are still probably PO'd about VHS!!

In almost every CE category Sony dominated they are now struggling, the brand has lost quite a bit of lustre.. They basically have what left, cameras (proprietary memory = crap) and camcorders (with Panasonic and Canon breathing down their necks)? The only thing I can find that they do better is maybe HDV, but even there AVCHD with higher (in-spec) bitrates would be superior, and Panasonic is already doing it's 2nd gen of true 1080i AVCHD RAMcorder (while Sony only has 1440x1080i to HDV?)

Not to mention exploding batteries, spyware, BD+, region coding...

I guess it'd be like being a Lindsay Lohan fan.. So good back in the _Freaky Friday_ days, such a trainwreck now...

You answered this with your next statement, IMO.

I don't understand. I think folks would be more upset if they owned stand alone blu-ray players. The fact that they have ps3's means that even if blu-ray dies, they still have a pretty powerful gaming console.

Because who better to act irrationally over something like this than the Video Game - My System Must Win generation. I can understand disappointment from those who don't want to buy two formats, but the excessive whining and crying is ridiculous and what this thread is talking about. Home theater is a hobby, and should be treated as such. These suicide pact-like behaviors because someone's format of choice just received a blow in this so called "war", is way past immature.

Because who better to act irrationally over something like this than the Video Game - My System Must Win generation. I can understand disappointment from those who don't want to buy two formats, but the excessive whining and crying is ridiculous and what this thread is talking about. Home theater is a hobby, and should be treated as such. These suicide pact-like behaviors because someone's format of choice just received a blow in this so called "war", is way past immature.

I understand what this thread is about, but your posts make no logical sense. You are associating things that have no association. You quoted my post and talked about something totally different. Maybe edit your posts a bit after you let your stream of consciousness flow through the keyboard ;)

Some people think that these forums are filled with three types of folks: HD DVD folks, BD folks, and neutral folks. This is incorrect: there are four, the fourth being "one unified HD format" folks. These folks want HDM but only see it being viable if a single format were to emerge.

The upgrade from DVD is too weak, the difference between 720p and 1080p is to subtle, and the looming threat of digital downloads is too strong for a severely fractured HDM market to survive. The only way it had a shot was by acting swiftly, unifying, and gaining DVD-like momentum before Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and others start to get serious about digital distribution in HD.

So when some of us say "screw this, it's not happening" it's not a dig at HD DVD any more than it is at blu-ray. With content now perfectly split until at least 2009, there is no hope for even Laserdisc levels of adoption. HDM will not survive in that form. It's going to be one of the shortest lived formats ever (both of them: HD DVD and Blu-ray). So some of us are deciding it's not worth it to do the "build the library all over again" thing when it's only going to last roughly 3 years before the switch to the true DVD successor begins.

We're not whining and it has nothing to do with Blu vs. HD, just who we thought had the best shot of winning. It looked like Blu did, but now it looks like a stalemate, which means it's going to be 3 years of half-assed dual format support and then death. You can't fault people for wanting to just skip that whole affair.

Upconverted DVD, renting BD/HD DVD, and waiting 3 years is not too bad of an option, all things considered. I'll be sitting on a mountain of cash that I can spend on HD digital downloads from iTunes or whatever it ends up being.


What makes you think that digital downloads compete with disk sales? Pay Per View (like DIVX) is a completely different market than disk library collections. How big of a hard drive will you need to store that media collection? Do you think the content provider will stream the media to you for each view for no additional charge? What happens if your hard drive crashes? Do you have RAID for all consumers? There are practical considerations here that I don't think are even being considered.

Erik

Yes I always pay full MSRP for all my goods. That is called shopping. Called street prices. Called Common sense.

And I love the complete avoidance of the fact that I dont care whether Blu-ray tanks or HD-DVD does................... Just as long as one does.

And the Blu-ray player player price complaining is a joke. Because you never once mention the PS3, which completely invalidates your argument.

Shoppers for the format go to Best Buy and Circuit City.
If Spiderman 3 is suggested at $50.00; Guess what you are paying for it at Best Buy and Circuit City?

DING! DING! DING!

$50.00. And don't let me get started with FYE's pricing on movies!

And why would I pay for a $500.00 PS3 thats gonna over heat and melt my furniture? Oh wait! I did that already! Hense; My sole support of HD DVD...After selling my PS3!

I understand what this thread is about, but your posts make no logical sense. You are associating things that have no association. You quoted my post and talked about something totally different. Maybe edit your posts a bit after you let your stream of consciousness flow through the keyboard ;)

Sorry, I see how I came off that way, but I didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't know what the thread was about, and I know that you were trying to explain to the Blu-Ray owners why the Paramount decision isn't as big a deal as some of making of it since their machines won't be useless since it doubles as a game machine. I was merely expressing my opinion that the reason for the overreaction is simply the age and mentality of the video game generation since the majority of the owned Blu-Ray players are PS3's. I just quoted the beginning of your post because to me it's as simple as that.

When I made the comment about "what this thread is about" I was only saying that I was trying to stay on the topic of the whiners, and not talking bad about Blu-Ray owners in general.

I know I don't always spell out my thoughts coherently, but they make sense in my head!:D