I'm an avid lurker here, but have posted some too. I spend the majority of my time reading in the blu-ray, hd-dvd forums. I owned a hd-a20 for a week and sent it back, unsure of which side will win. I liked the a20, but i also like blu-ray. That being said.....

This format war is beginning to make me sour. This thing could go on and on. I would like a winner. I would like to spend my hard earned middle class money on a format thats going to win (in the long run). Is there anything wrong with that? NO, not at all.

I've read that i should "vote" with my money. I don't believe thats true here. We (consumers) are not picking the winner of this thing. I don't know who is, maybe paramount, microsoft, sony, toshiba, speilberg, who knows, but we're not the deciding factor here. Before anyone gets on me, i own a toshiba dlp, windows xp, a sony psp and the movie "munich", that should pretty much cover me i think. :)

I will now wait this thing out and concentrate my money in other areas, perhaps i will build a new pc...oh wait, what drive should i put in it?

We have dug in our trenches, now we wait and take potshots at each other, until someone comes along and invents the tank.

Just my thoughts on this .......thanks for your time.....i would like to see the Bourne series on any hd-format and POTC on any hd-format........

Sorry Steve, too much common sense.

I am sure someone will be along shortly to accuse you of something, but it wont be me.

I happen to agree with you 100%.

You could get a duel format player. That way you can play all..

Otherwise waiting things out can be good as well both sides have made large price drops on hardware. When software drops who knows.

Then ya gotta wait, if you want zero risk waiting is your only option, you should know that. If we all waited HDM would never happen, so don't blame us for buying in now and shouldering the risk.

If everyone waits, no Hi-def media period. These are entertainment devices, luxury items, it's not like buying a car.

You could get a duel format player. That way you can play all..

Otherwise waiting things out can be good as well both sides have made large price drops on hardware. When software drops who knows.

I voted by buying an HD-A1 in June 2006. I can't see myself buying a Blu-ray player until it complies with all proposed specifications. Rushing out a product before it's finished does not get my dollars. I am confident in HD DVD ... now more than EVER.

If after 2 more holiday seasons AND Blu-ray players meet specifications that they claim I may consider them. I certainly have more time to wait now don't I.

Then ya gotta wait, if you want zero risk waiting is your only option, you should know that. If we all waited HDM would never happen, so don't blame us for buying in now and shouldering the risk.

If everyone waits, no Hi-def media period. These are entertainment devices, luxury items, it's not like buying a car.

Mr. Ramzyk, you also make another good point. My apologies if you thought i was blaming avs forum members, as this was not my intention.

Officer Steve

The problem with the concept of "voting with your dollars" is that you assume if others vote along with you, you will eventually make a change or see results. How you feel if I said Sony could write a cheque tomorrow that would cause Toshiba to abandon HD DVD and produce BD instead? The inevitable reaction would be wait a minute! You said HD DVD stand alones are outselling BD...why make the change?!?!

This Paramount decision would be a heck of a lot more understandable if the sales ratio's were reversed...then the "voting with your dollars" idea would make some sort of sense. Until then, we're the mercy of the whims of Studio execs who can do whatever they please, regardless of sales trends or logic.

I think it would be great if "Apex" came out w/ a dual format player by Christmas. Under $300.00 bones, i would pick that one up. If I had to bet at this point, wait, wait, this is not something i want to bet on.......nevermind.

EDIT HERE: Oh yeah, with all that bj+ and hd interactive stuff.......i watch that stuff after i've watched the movie. Someone should pay Lucas, maybe he could help decide the victor. Perhaps Star Wars could be the "tank" in this trench warfare.

Mr. Ramzyk, you also make another good point. My apologies if you thought i was blaming avs forum members, as this was not my intention.

Officer Steve

No offense taken I assure you :)

The problem with the concept of "voting with your dollars" is that you assume if others vote along with you, you will eventually make a change or see results. How you feel if I said Sony could write a cheque tomorrow that would cause Toshiba to abandon HD DVD and produce BD instead? The inevitable reaction would be wait a minute! You said HD DVD stand alones are outselling BD...why make the change?!?!

This Paramount decision would be a heck of a lot more understandable if the sales ratio's were reversed...then the "voting with your dollars" idea would make some sort of sense. Until then, we're the mercy of the whims of Studio execs who can do whatever they please, regardless of sales trends or logic.


There's been way too much attention in this forum given to the horse-race when both of the horses are walking their laps.
If the numbers are this small it simply doesn't matter how they compare to each other. No one will learn from this, the Paramount move will tip the scales and it will make the race-fans even more ravenous. Prepare for a bumpy ride.

Nobody on the consumer end wanted a format war, but here we are. You're right, of course, in saying this is likely to drag on for quite awhile.

I've never worried much about a particular format dying. They all do eventually. I've still got my laserdisc player and a pile of laserdiscs. My "African Queen" laser still gets the occasional workout. I bought the 360 add-on, which is a minimal expense for me. If HD DVD goes belly-up at some point, there will be a fire sale on players and I'll pick up an extra or two to protect my investment in the discs (did this with laser).

I'm a little more optimistic than some, and am hoping that fully-specced, reasonably priced dual-format players show up in a year or so. From my end that solves the problem, but who knows what's really going to happen. Until then, I'm just going to enjoy the films available to me. There's currently more than I can buy or watch anyway.

I strongly suggest to sole format owners on both sides. Stand firm and do not give up your fight. Don't give in and go neutral. Corporate ego and an unwillingness to reach a compromise has brought us here. Let them figure it out at this point. I will continue to support my format of choice, but I will not go neutral.

This war has to end and at this point I will let the vast corporate intelligence of Sony, Toshiba and MS figure it out since sales data and common sense has gone out the window.

I will now wait this thing out and concentrate my money in other areas...

.....i would like to see the Bourne series on any hd-format and POTC on any hd-format........Based on these 2 conflicting statements, are you going to Best Buy to see those hd movies? :p

I guess I don't see where the risk is. I bought HD DVD. If I buy 50 discs, I will always be able to play those 50 discs, at least for the life of the technology. I mean, I have DVD's sitting on my shelf that I bought 10 years ago. Just because I have basically replaced DVD with HD DVD, doesn't mean I can't dust them off and play them.

I guess I don't get why people are so concerned with there being only one format. There are more HD DVD releases out there that I would like to have, but can't afford them all. If all studios were one format, it would just mean even more discs I can't afford to buy.

In the meantime, I can continue buying just HD DVD. If a BD player comes along for a couple hundred bucks, that is 1.1 compliant and gets good reviews, I'll buy that and watch whatever.

I just don't get the OP's original post. If there isn't enough material you want on HD DVD to keep your money busy, then buy Blu-ray. If there isn't enough there by itself, then it means you have too much money to spend, in which case, go dual format.

let the fanboys fight it out on forums and studios double dip going from exclusive to neutral and then back to exclusive again. i commend ms for throwing the monkey wrench in the mix and using consumers and CE mfg's as pawns to slow the HDM arena so it can be dl'd fairly easily via paysite or illegally. this will definitely happen. no confusion there as there will be no players to buy and no retail optical media to burn for consumers in the future. eventually, this will be a shift of media content moving away from CE mfg's of hardware devices and helps build the infrastructure for download content that ms wants in the first place. phone/cable companies will be very happy. sony and apple have same intentions. however, optical disc, at this time, is a tangible device that consumers feel there is value. this is why we all buy rather than download. we can see it, touch it, feel it, and own it. this move has segregated hd supporters even more and we are on our way to how music media is obtained in the present. it's good or bad depending on how you view it. as for friends and family, i would not put them through this confusion, the headaches, and $. i will continue to buy bluray and won't defect until i have to. there's always still sddvd. going neutral will just add more fuel to the flame. we're in for a long war and i don't think anyone of us will win by the amount of money we have to shell out. what a shame...

I strongly suggest to sole format owners on both sides. Stand firm and do not give up your fight. Don't give in and go neutral. Corporate ego and an unwillingness to reach a compromise has brought us here. Let them figure it out at this point. I will continue to support my format of choice, but I will not go neutral.

This war has to end and at this point I will let the vast corporate intelligence of Sony, Toshiba and MS figure it out since sales data and common sense has gone out the window.

I can't for the life of me imagine what you'd hope to accomplish with your approach. Who exactly do you think you'd be injuring other than yourself (for your inability to see HD films in the opposing format)? Do you really think Sony, Toshiba or the studios actually give a flying $^#( about us and our preferences? One thing talks -- money. This is especially true in Hollywood, but true in any industry (ok, except maybe the airline business, those guys wouldn't know how to make a dollar if it came up and put itself in their pocket). The format battle will be "decided" when studios and C/E manufacturers figure out how to make the most money off of their properties.

In 6-9 months, going dual format will be an incremental spend and the problem will be solved.

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios negotiating a settlement of their own volition (sp?) = 0%

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios being forced into some sort de facto standard or negotiated solution due to the proliferation of dual format players = 100%

Several people are posting how they are upsent and dissapointed about the Paramount announcement and how it extends the war and keeps many on the sidelines. I don't mean this as a jab to anyone, but did you really think the war was about over? If you did, you were decieved. Toshiba and the HD DVD promo group have not panicked and have said that they were gearing up for the holidays. Why did most of you believe the BDA's propaganda? This thing has just ramped up and will continue to be nasty for quite sometime. I understand the frustration of wanting to jump in and being held back by cost, but why all of the hatred toward HD DVD? It should be EQUALLY directed at the BDA. They both want to win and will do what it takes to do so.

I can't for the life of me imagine what you'd hope to accomplish with your approach. Who exactly do you think you'd be injuring other than yourself (for your inability to see HD films in the opposing format)? Do you really think Sony, Toshiba or the studios actually give a flying $^#( about us and our preferences? One thing talks -- money. This is especially true in Hollywood, but true in any industry (ok, except maybe the airline business, those guys wouldn't know how to make a dollar if it came up and put itself in their pocket). The format battle will be "decided" when studios and C/E manufacturers figure out how to make the most money off of their properties.

In 6-9 months, going dual format will be an incremental spend and the problem will be solved.

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios negotiating a settlement of their own volition (sp?) = 0%

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios being forced into some sort de facto standard or negotiated solution due to the proliferation of dual format players = 100%

when the dust settles, hdm downloads will become the successor due to ease of use and codec compatibility via pc programs. i'm investing on fiber, f that! but no, on a serious note, this will hurt any consumer in the pocketbook who has invested in HD devices and discs as none will be compatible with eachother. given that studios are starting to get divided from a 80-20% split to 70-30% after paramounts decision. exclude, dual-format players of course. more and more will defect or remain exclusive only. bd was really close in finishing off hddvd because of studio support, CE's, and marketing. now the story has changed. we as consumers don't have sony or ms by the balls anymore. instead, they are about to clip off our nutsacks and feed it to the hungry wolves(studios). what do we do? regardless of your choice in hddvd or bd, buy one format. we only need one, not two. let's try not to get our hdm defunct to a niche. if not, we can all laugh and cry about how hdm failed like laserdisc.

The enthusiast/early adopter thing isn't for everyone. Stick with DVD until you feel like running with the big dogs.

when the dust settles, hdm downloads will become the successor due to ease of use and codec compatibility via pc programs. i'm investing on fiber, f that! but no, on a serious note, this will hurt any consumer in the pocketbook who has invested in HD devices and discs as none will be compatible with eachother. given that studios are starting to get divided from a 80-20% split to 70-30% after paramounts decision. exclude, dual-format players of course. more and more will defect or remain exclusive only. bd was really close in finishing off hddvd because of studio support, CE's, and marketing. now the story has changed. we as consumers don't have sony or ms by the balls anymore. instead, they are about to clip off our nutsacks and feed it to the hungry wolves(studios). what do we do? regardless of your choice in hddvd or bd, buy one format. we only need one, not two. let's try not to get our hdm defunct to a niche. if not, we can all laugh and cry about how hdm failed like laserdisc.

Um, so just buy a dual format player and be done with it. Granted, they're pricey ($1k) right now, but given 6-8 months, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that they'd be selling in the $500 range. Probably won't be a BD Profile 1.1 player, but right now they're aren't any available anyway, so big deal.

This thing is looking more and more like DVD+/-R. When all is said and done, all (newly produced) players will play both discs. [crosses fingers]

I voted by buying an HD-A1 in June 2006. I can't see myself buying a Blu-ray player until it complies with all proposed specifications. Rushing out a product before it's finished does not get my dollars. I am confident in HD DVD ... now more than EVER.

If after 2 more holiday seasons AND Blu-ray players meet specifications that they claim I may consider them. I certainly have more time to wait now don't I.

By your own criteria, why didn't you return your A1 then? Is it not true that your player of choice has required multiple firmware updates to implement the so-called finished specifications?

Is it not true that your player of choice has required multiple firmware updates to implement the so-called finished specifications?
No.

I've read that i should "vote" with my money. I don't believe thats true here. We (consumers) are not picking the winner of this thing. I don't know who is, maybe paramount, microsoft, sony, toshiba, speilberg, who knows, but we're not the deciding factor here. Before anyone gets on me, i own a toshiba dlp, windows xp, a sony psp and the movie "munich", that should pretty much cover me i think. :)


Let's not get "voting with dollars (money)" confused with spending of dollars. You are voting with your dollars when you spend them and when you dont spend them. Lack of spending is a vote that the value of spending your dollars is not exceeded by the value of the item for sale. Everyone is voting in a capitalist economy. Its why price elasticity, supply and demand work. Marketing and propaganda are mechanisms by which influence is being directed as to how you vote. Buyer beware is and should be the mantra for most people. You have the power, you have the money that they want you to spend. You are the one with the power. So am I.

Early adoption is a bitch!

Um, so just buy a dual format player and be done with it. Granted, they're pricey ($1k) right now, but given 6-8 months, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that they'd be selling in the $500 range. Probably won't be a BD Profile 1.1 player, but right now they're aren't any available anyway, so big deal.

This thing is looking more and more like DVD+/-R. When all is said and done, all (newly produced) players will play both discs. [crosses fingers]

heheh, come on now. hddvd and bd can't even finalize their specs and you think a dual format player will work perfectly? (sarcasm) jk!

yeah, i can do that but why? a single format player with dvd backwards will be $99 by the time i decide to pick up a few more hd players. i want my disc to work anywhere in the house, car, lakehouse(i wish), vacation home(i wish), time-share, cabin, and portable device. this is why i want one format. either hddvd or bd. i don't want to wait two years before i do so. we have just extended the life of sddvd.

Let's not get "voting with dollars (money)" confused with spending of dollars. You are voting with your dollars when you spend them and when you dont spend them. Lack of spending is a vote that the value of spending your dollars is not exceeded by the value of the item for sale. Everyone is voting in a capitalist economy. Its why price elasticity, supply and demand work. Marketing and propaganda are mechanisms by which influence is being directed as to how you vote. Buyer beware is and should be the mantra for most people. You have the power, you have the money that they want you to spend with them. You are the one with the power. So am I.

Early adoption is a bitch!

dam, i had to read your comments a few times to get it. heheh...

I guess I don't see where the risk is. I bought HD DVD. If I buy 50 discs, I will always be able to play those 50 discs, at least for the life of the technology. I mean, I have DVD's sitting on my shelf that I bought 10 years ago. Just because I have basically replaced DVD with HD DVD, doesn't mean I can't dust them off and play them.

I guess I don't get why people are so concerned with there being only one format. There are more HD DVD releases out there that I would like to have, but can't afford them all. If all studios were one format, it would just mean even more discs I can't afford to buy.

In the meantime, I can continue buying just HD DVD. If a BD player comes along for a couple hundred bucks, that is 1.1 compliant and gets good reviews, I'll buy that and watch whatever.

I just don't get the OP's original post. If there isn't enough material you want on HD DVD to keep your money busy, then buy Blu-ray. If there isn't enough there by itself, then it means you have too much money to spend, in which case, go dual format.

Exactly, what are these people who post this stuff afraid of? Lower self esteem because you picked a "loser"? I really don't get it. People need to start thinking of these machines as a "Value Added" proposition. It will still play all your DVDs rather nicely and will give you the added benefit of playing many HD movies. If you enjoy movies and have the display to really see a difference with HDM why would you not buy into one or the other? You are only denying yourself the pleasure of seeing some movies in HD right now. The choice might not be any clearer a year or two from now.

Exactly, what are these people who post this stuff afraid of? Lower self esteem because you picked a "loser"? I really don't get it. People need to start thinking of these machines as a "Value Added" proposition. It will still play all your DVDs rather nicely and will give you the added benefit of playing many HD movies. If you enjoy movies and have the display to really see a difference with HDM why would you not buy into one or the other? You are only denying yourself the pleasure of seeing some movies in HD right now. The choice might not be any clearer a year or two from now.

read my few posts above you. i stated why..

read my few posts above you. i stated why..

If you really have a player installed in all those locations, you probably, again, have enough money to affod dual format, so it shouldn't matter to you. J6P does not have a player in their car, summer home, or portable device.

A car or portable HDM player isn't really even a reality yet (laptops with a HDM drive, but not the same as just a portable player). If you are waiting for these things to come along for HDM, then what you are saying is that you won't buy into a format until it is mature.

Even if there was one format tomorrow, it wouldn't be mature for 2-3 more years. So someone following your logic would care less about the format war, or HDM in general, at this phase of the game, be it one format or two.

I can't for the life of me imagine what you'd hope to accomplish with your approach. Who exactly do you think you'd be injuring other than yourself (for your inability to see HD films in the opposing format)? Do you really think Sony, Toshiba or the studios actually give a flying $^#( about us and our preferences? One thing talks -- money. This is especially true in Hollywood, but true in any industry (ok, except maybe the airline business, those guys wouldn't know how to make a dollar if it came up and put itself in their pocket). The format battle will be "decided" when studios and C/E manufacturers figure out how to make the most money off of their properties.

In 6-9 months, going dual format will be an incremental spend and the problem will be solved.

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios negotiating a settlement of their own volition (sp?) = 0%

Likelihood of Sony and Toshiba and the studios being forced into some sort de facto standard or negotiated solution due to the proliferation of dual format players = 100%

Consider it a protest of ending up in the middle of this huge clusterF#CK that HDM has become. Supporting both does not help ending this thing. HD DVD only chance was to coexist, but at the expense of creating total market confustion (something that MSFT MAY have wanted all along).

We are enthusiasts here, but to most HDTV is already complicated enough without adding the format war to the mix. I am sure I could use both formats, but how do you explain to someone this only disc only works in this unit and this one only work in this one, but this unit plays all except for this, etc. Consumer indifference is setting in ... Maybe both will die and they will go back to the drawing board for a unified format, but I highly doubt it.

If you really have a player installed in all those locations, you probably, again, have enough money to affod dual format, so it shouldn't matter to you. J6P does not have a player in their car, summer home, or portable device.

A car or portable HDM player isn't really even a reality yet (laptops with a HDM drive, but not the same as just a portable player). If you are waiting for these things to come along for HDM, then what you are saying is that you won't buy into a format until it is mature.

Even if there was one format tomorrow, it wouldn't be mature for 2-3 more years. So someone following your logic would care less about the format war, or HDM in general, at this phase of the game, be it one format or two.
you nailed it and this is how an average consumer is feeling and should feel.

I don't think the cost of the player is significant to the cost of the software. The issue is whether any studio will support any format. Paramount / Dreamworks didn't add HD-DVD; they dropped BD. Why wouldn't any studio do the same for any and all HD formats at any time? That's the fear of the J6P consumer, even more than a few hundred for a dual format player.

ken

So much angst. So much chatter. So many impassioned arguments. People dividing into champions of one format or another. What if they gave a format war and nobody came?

I admit, I have been playing HD-DVD for some months now, but only because the ubiquitous Xbox 360 drive was available for $200. But the problem is, up until the announcement this week, there was about 40% of the HD media exclusive to one format or the other. Now the percentages will shift a few points, but the war will continue.

You must still choose both formats, or watch some movies in SD instead of HD. As soon as I can get a Blu-Ray player for a reasonable price, I'll have one. If one format becomes predominant months or years from now, I won't care then anymore than I care now.

I don't double dip, I never have. Occasionally I feel the urge to watch one of my old movies on -gasp- VHS. I'd rather buy new films than replace old ones.

It really is OK if you don't give a hoot about a format war. You don't have to be a proponent of either media. They both produce wonderfull audio and video in your Home Theater.

So much angst. So much chatter. So many impassioned arguments. People dividing into champions of one format or another. What if they gave a format war and nobody came?

Well said Gary. Its a good thing there is a place for everyone for all kinds of views. Lots of news right now, so threads seem pretty pinpointed. I admire people that have passion. What they do with that passionate energy ends up here in these threads sometimes. Threads are like TV though, you dont watch something you dont want to.

Heres a novel idea, buy a PS3 and a Toshiba HD DVD player.

Then just buy any movie you want on either format.

Problem solved.

What is the drawback to that plan???????

If the cost of going that route is too much for you, all I can say is tough!!!

BESIDES if it wasn't for the format war, a Blu Ray player or HD DVD player would still be $1,000 anyway, so the war is still saving you money even if you buy both!!!!!

Save up some dough, besides prices on HD DVD players will soon drop.