I noticed over at Cine4Home preview that the new Sony VW60 suffers from oversaturated primaries:
Quote:
"Obviously the technical designers set themselves a strong color representation for the projector again completely consciously over the video standard away..."

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SonyVPL-VW60/CIEVW60wide.jpg

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SonyVPL-VW60/CIEVW60.jpg

I didn't want to derail the train, but can anyone explain why the extended primaries cant simply be addressed via a FW upgrade???

Can anyone else comment if any external processors are practical for addressing the extended primaries and more importantly, is this 'correction' going to cost thousands of dollars and take a rocket scientist to operate?

Lastly should ALL these designers be "shot" (as been claimed here previously)?

Note to moderator: please make this thread sticky!

Maybe to mimic the main competitor? ;):D

To summarize:

Extended primaries catch the eye and look good to many would-be buyers. I suppose the marketing department rules in such considerations over more subtle discussions of specifications of industry standards. So, I have to assume the designers are just following orders and don't deserve to be "shot" for this particular offense.

Reportedly, JVC set out to "outdo" the Pearl's extended gamut and they did in the RS1. The VW60 appears to be continuation of this design/marketing philosophy.

Ideally, CMS, or at least options to choose industry standard gamuts would be present in all projectors. Presumably, this feature would cost too much in design and manufacture and/or demand is perceived as limited in this price range. However, it's been pointed out that accurate colors can be made in projectors in this price range and with the feedback of this forum and other enthusiasts and critics I think JVC and Sony and others will come around to offer color accuracy some day.

Regarding FW updates, Tom Stites has said the RS1 doesn't have the memory in the LUT that'd be required. I tried to follow the discussion around LUT changes to be done by WM through his proprietary setup but don't know if he ever did this with a Pearl or could with a VW60.

Add-ons, said to be "affordable" are to be presented at CEDIA per Mr. Stites. I don't take thousands of dollars to be affordable.

Dan

I think all of us AVS'ers should embark on a search for a projector with under-saturated primaries. Then we could stack it together with either the Sony or JVC and make everyone happy.

...Extended primaries catch the eye and look good to many would-be buyers. ...
It is all about "POP".:D

Starting with the Q04 Sony has provided two preset gamuts, Wide, and Normal/Standard. Standard or the Q04 was fairly accurate, on the Ruby and Pearl, less so. On the Black Pearl, standard is certainly more accurate than the Pearl, but the Red and Gren are still oversaturated to give more "POP"!

I think all of us AVS'ers should embark on a search for a projector with under-saturated primaries.

Pick just about any pre-IN series InFocus projector and you'll get undersaturated greens. ;)

However, yellowish greens are less objectionable to most people than neon greens.

I noticed over at Cine4Home preview that the new Sony VW60 suffers from oversaturated primaries
Unless Sony has included a way to fix the primaries (and I'll bet they don't), then you can scratch the VW60 off my list of potential next projectors.

NO ACCURATE PRIMARIES = NO PURCHASE...PERIOD!

And yes, someone should be shot for that decision, though I don't know who.

It is all about "POP".
Accurate colors have just as much "pop" as oversaturated ones. It's just that accurate colors look, well, more accurate while they are "popping"...:)

Now we don't want anyone doing Sony any favors here now, do we? :)

Reincarnate, you must be in heaven... Your very own sticky thread about "Sony" & Bob posted in it. :D

I know the RS-1 is off on the primaries. The cine4home.com review also shows the Sony VW60 off on the primaries. Simple question: which is worse?

I know the RS-1 is off on the primaries. The cine4home.com review also shows the Sony VW60 off on the primaries. Simple question: which is worse?

The JVC is worse based on the single chart I've seen on the prototype/preproduction Sony. The new Sony appears to be a little better than the Pearl (which was better in this regard than the JVC). Either way, this new Sony does not appear to have highly accurate primaries either...

I know the RS-1 is off on the primaries. The cine4home.com review also shows the Sony VW60 off on the primaries. Simple question: which is worse?

Here are the two CIE charts:

RS-1/HD-1

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC-HD1/Bild43.jpg

VW60

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SonyVPL-VW60/CIEVW60.jpg

I would say the JVC is better because the primary hues are correct - just oversaturated! The Sony has Red/Green skewed towards yellow - but it appears to be less saturated than the JVC. (hard to see on small CIExy chart)

I would say the JVC is better because the primary hues are correct - just oversaturated! The Sony has Red/Green skewed towards yellow - but it appears to be less saturated than the JVC. (hard to see on small CIExy chart)
Kevin, the hues are correctable on the Sony using their RCP (Real Color Processing).

If the VW60 is anything like the Ruby, then the primaries are less saturated than those of the RS-1. Even though the Ruby is oversatured too, it is more watchable than the RS-1 IMHO...It still isn't right, though, and I would consider neither acceptable these days.

The one review of a projectiondesign DLP projector I found also had under saturated greens., like the InFocus Screenplay 72xx series.

I know the RS-1 is off on the primaries. The cine4home.com review also shows the Sony VW60 off on the primaries. Simple question: which is worse?

Is there a review of the VW60 at cine4home.com? I couldn't seem to find it on their site. Would someone mind posting a link?

Thanks

Is there a review of the VW60 at cine4home.com? I couldn't seem to find it on their site. Would someone mind posting a link?

Check out http://www.cine4home.de

So far they "only" have a german preview. You will probably have to use Babelfish to translate it.

I didn't want to derail the train, but can anyone explain why the extended primaries cant simply be addressed via a FW upgrade???



Quite simply, it's "The Curse of the Black Pearl." It's just a way of extending that franchise into their projector division.

Quite simply, it's "The Curse of the Black Pearl." It's just a way of extending that franchise into their projector division.

I could care less about the color being slightly inaccurate, but not when the "curse of the same MSRP as the Pearl" is still there! Same MSRP, with the same damn flaws! Way to go Sony!:mad:

I really wanted the Black Pearl, but now it looks like I'll have to wait a few months until the MAP becomes less than $3,500.

The concern about the color accuracy appears unwarranted. The Cine4home preproduction test cites the RCP option as still available to adjust it. And they call the options to adjust it a "color miracle."

Will that color miracle be available to competitors' new releases. We just don't know but I'll be JVCed to find out.

The Cine4home preproduction test cites the RCP option as still available to adjust it.
Still available? The RCP was not capable of correcting the colors in either the Ruby or Pearl. The problem is that the controls labeled "saturation" are actually "luminance" controls, and as a result color decoding can be corrected, but oversaturated primaries can not. Now if Sony has FIXED their RCP, then that is another story, but the old RCP is not a properly working, nor complete tool to get the job done.

Bob,

Since I'm not fluent in German, I can't say the exact context of what Cine4home says about the new Sony. Maybe if you've spent some time with the JVC and Pearl you can highlight how problematic the difference is but I have to say, having the latter, I find the "issue" IMHO to be somewhat overstated.

If Cine4home calls the new Black Pearl a "color miracle" we'll have to wait and see.

But an HD telecast of Yankee Stadium looks darn impressive on the Pearl. :)

Here is the color gamut of the new Mitsubishi HC6000:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/images_b/hc6000_2.jpg

Such a pretty sight. I'm glad I'm not irritated by these charts.

So now the question is: will those consumed in this crazy vendetta ever come out of their rut? And rejoin the human race? :eek:

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc6000.html

Update:
Well we didn't have to wait long. Another flip-flop for that brand name:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11567898#post11567898

Excuse me while I go have a beer and listen to 6 straight hours of Joel Osteen. And just smile.
There is another ironic lesson here. I've just got to find it! :)

Update:
Well we didn't have to wait long. Another flip-flop for that brand name:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post11567898
Ha! That's funny. There is no flip flop...I haven't seen the projector, so how could I flip flop on it? If the gamut looks like the others in this thread I won't be buying it regardless of the price. Heck, at that price I am sure I won't be buying it even if it has a perfect gamut.

And if you are talking about the VW-60 as a best value in LCoS statement, all of the LCoS units are inaccurate and I won't be buying ANY of them, though I still think that the VW-60 probably represents the best value for those who are planning to buy LCoS. The oversaturated colors of Sony are less offensive than those of JVC, but neither is acceptable (hmmm...I think i said that earlier in this very thread, didn't I?).

Bob, at this point, I think people pretty much are willing to chip in to help you get the new 3 chip Sim, just so you will finally stop saying it.

Its all in the mind:
"and make the Sony worth every dime they are asking for it".

As Joel teaches, the saturation raving is simply an indication of issues elsewhere.

Note: I'll change my name back in a few days after this special occasion consumes itself. In the meantime sing Don't ya jes' love it!:D

[QUOTE=reincarnate;11578829]Here is the color gamut of the new Mitsubishi HC6000:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/images_b/hc6000_2.jpg
That is really ugly. :(

Its all in the mind:
"and make the Sony worth every dime they are asking for it".
Ah, that was the quote that got to ya? I was talking about optics quality, something that people seem to put very little importance on yet can have immense benefits to picture quality. High quality optics cost a lot of money and consequently raise the price of the display significantly, but as I said about the Sony (and would say the same thing for any other projector with high quality optics) it would "make the <insert brand name here> worth every dime they are asking for it". It's not a Sony thing, it an optics thing. But you knew that already...;)

The Sony VW100 offered CMS. Does anyone know if the VW60 has this feature. I know the VW50 did not.

The Sony VW100 offered CMS. Does anyone know if the VW60 has this feature. I know the VW50 did not.
Alan, all 3 of those units have Sony's version of CMS which they call RCP (Real Color Processing). The RCP is capable of doing part of the job, but is not entirely effective. It can control hue and saturation of RGBCYM, but unfortunately saturation is tied to luminance, rendering the control pretty much useless. Early reports on the VW-60 seem to indicate that it still works the same way, but I have no idea of what Sony has done with the VW-200.

The Sony VW100 offered CMS. Does anyone know if the VW60 has this feature. I know the VW50 did not.

The Sony ImageDirector software is not a complete CMS at all. As Bob said it does not allow for adjustment of luminance. William Phelps wrote a management util for Ruby's that takes the ImageDirector to the next level. Still not a full fledged CMS but I would say there is more control over the Sony VPL-VW50, 60 and 100 than the RS1 and 2 from what I've read.

The Sony ImageDirector software is not a complete CMS, pretty bare bones.It isn't a CMS at all. The ImageDirector software allows you to adjust gamma and can be used for grayscale tracking, but not the primary hue, saturation, or lightness. I haven't tested the RCP function in the VW60 yet.

...I haven't tested the RCP function in the VW60 yet. have you tested the other functions? When can we expect the review? :D

have you tested the other functions? When can we expect the review? :D

Why the VPL-VW60? I thought you were all about the Diamond?

have you tested the other functions? When can we expect the review? :DMy review will be in next month's WSR, mails out about the 15th of Oct.

My review will be in next month's WSR, mails out about the 15th of Oct.
Great! I'm looking forward to it. What's up next on the chopping block, the Marantz VP-15S1 perhaps?

Great! I'm looking forward to it. What's up next on the chopping block, the Marantz VP-15S1 perhaps?I don't know yet. We will see what shows up. The Marantz would be nice.

When you do the review, can you check and put into your writeup if the Black Pearl supports the display of 10-bit color so I'll know if your CMS would be of any use to me?

Bob. I don't think all got it after two repeatitions. Maybe you want to state it again? :)

Reio-ta. The MSRP won't drop on this until there is a successor to the not yet US released VPL-vw60. I would expect some price adjustment to the not yet released anywhere VPL-vw200 before it is replaced.

Since we have a color correction solution from Sony by way of the VW-60 and its "normal" mode, this thread has served its purpose and is now closed. Please feel free to start another thread if needed or wanted.