Given the choice between a Velodyne 1812 or JL Audio Gotham g213 what would you choose and why?

My vote goes for the Gotham.

I'd say Gotham just based on looks. The velo looks like it can dig deeper by specs alone. Anyone who heard both?

From tests I've seen, the 1812 is not that much of a significant improvement over a DD-18. I would have to assume that the Gotham would generally bury the 1812. I would still love to see a comparison.

I have heard the 1812 and it is simply awesome, both musically and HT response. That being said, based on direct comparisons I have made between the DD series (15 and 18) and the Fathoms (112 and 113), I think the Gotham will best the 1812 in pretty much all areas with the most noticable differences in the SPL capability and visceral impact.

Does anyone have links to techincal/detailed reviews of both subs?

Thanks in advance.

Why these 2? If you are really going to spend that much why not the Thigpen rotary. It all depends on what their purpose will be. I'd say thigpen, Gotham, then 1812. I don't think the thigpen plays that much upper bass though and you need an attic or something. Anyway, I am just babbling, Gotham would be great.

From what I gather on Eminent's web site the FR is 1Hz – 30Hz +/- 4dB so I agree with you that it doesn't play much upper bass or hardly any upper bass for that matter. As yes, it needs to be a IB installation. I don't think this product is a subwoofer per se; perhaps its more of a "transducer?"

http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm

I agree, for an all out assault you can get 3 growlers(folded horn subs that pound out 40 to 100 hz and then the rotary. That would be awesome. You can always get the growlers and a couple of Danley DTS-20's, that would be one serious bass setup with some of the best sound quality. Cheaper too.

Thanks for the ideas.

Are there any Velo 1812 or Gotham g213 owners out there that can chime in? Or anyone who has expirence with either of these sub?

I've yet to see any 1812 or Gotham owners on this forum.

I am not even sure if the Gotham is shipping. Correct me if this is wrong.

The JL rep wrote this in April in regards to a question when it would be available. I would think someone on the forum would have 9K :eek: burning in their wallet and chimed in with their impressions if they had The Gotham in their possession.

Reeeeeallly soon, but it's going to take several months to fill all orders. These things don't exactly spit out of a machine. :)

There were a bunch of AVS people who were able to tour the JL facilities and there is a sticky in this forum about that trip. I am not sure if any of them had the opportunity to listen to the Gotham. For some reason, I don't think they did.

Mozvz, according to JL's web site the g213 is shipping.

http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=3

Available Models:
g213 (click for specs and feature list)
Model: g213-GLOSS
SKU: 96237
Cabinet Finish: High-Gloss Black
US Retail Price: $11,000.00
Available: Now Shipping

cnewlander,

Thank you for the information on the Gotham. I think I'll rush out there and purchase 2 of those puppies at 11K. :) I guess the 9K figure that Mr. Smith posted in April was before the JL price increase a few months ago.

If anyone can afford such a piece of audio gear, all the power to them. I'd love to own one of the Gotham's, yet these types of subs are out of my league price wise. However, I'd be more then willing to tip a few beverages (I'll bring the libations) and give a listen at someone's house if they owned one or two of these beasts. I am sure they are very special subwoofers.

For the money you can do way better than the 1812 or the Gotham. Sure the specs are hard to beat, but in real rooms that can change in a hurry. I would never buy ONE of these subs when I could buy TWO of some other very good subs.

Real world, real room response is much more important than what is printed on paper. Properly placed and set up any 2 of these subs would be killer:
F113, dd-18, servo-15, Ultra-13, the big HSU (can't remember model)

Thanks for the ideas.

Are there any Velo 1812 or Gotham g213 owners out there that can chime in? Or anyone who has expirence with either of these sub?

I spent some time with the 1812 and it is the most impressive single subwoofer I have heard. I have dual F113's but have never heard the Gotham. From a practical standpoint, dual DD-18's or dual F113's should provide equal or better performance than the 1812 or Gotham but those are not practical products ... are they.;)

The 1812 did very badly in the avtalk tests. Supposedly a "bad" unit but it was never rectified or explained.

How is it really different from the DD18? A 12" driver ads nothing down low and is more of a placation to the "fast bass" idiots out there who don't understand how subs work.

The 1812 is an amazing subwoofer - like a Mercedes S-Class, it needs to be seen to appreciate it. It is more than just a subwoofer, it is also a conversation piece. The fact that it sounds so good is a plus.

The Gotham is probably going to sound 99% the same as a pair of Fathom 113's ...

With either subwoofer, make sure you have the proper dedicated circuit to go with it, and if you do manage to get either one, PLEASE, post pics.

Hi Craig,
Since you have heard an 1812 and the jl113 what would you pick? The gotham or 1812? I know the OP can't lose. Most decisions in life should be like this.

I don't know for sure which I would pick between the 2 ... the EQ on the Velo and its overall look does make up for the fact that the Gotham will out SPL it.

You have to see an 1812 in person to fully appreciate how good looking a subwoofer it is.

Of course, I have not seen a Gotham in person ... so take this for what it is worth.

"Buy it now" 1812 demo unit on e-bay, $7800.

BTW Craig, I love that A7-900, I run a dedicated theater so looks and size do not matter.

The 1812 is an amazing subwoofer - like a Mercedes S-Class, it needs to be seen to appreciate it. It is more than just a subwoofer, it is also a conversation piece. The fact that it sounds so good is a plus.

So the good looks overcome the massive underperformance? At least we know what your priorities are.

"I say old chap, that is one fine looking subwoofer"

"Thank-you my good man"

"Too bad it's so expensive for what it actually does"

"Yes, quite"

Velo 1812 VS JL Gotham

For me it would be a very easy choice the Gotham. I have multiple Fathom subs and a Velo HGS18.

The 1812 no matter how imposing and great looking uses an 18" that does not move more air than say the DD18,if it does it is a minute gain.

And the 12" woofer does not help when moving most air is most important...down very deep. It is more of a perfectly integrated MBM.


The Gotham will move more air,plain and simple. The f113 moves more air than the DD18 can,and dual f113 drivers will outdisplace the 1812 by at least 50%.

The Gotham fit and finish is second to none,just look at the "inexpensive" Fathom subs.They compete with Wilson,Aerial and Thiel in the fit and finish departament,the DD18 can go hide...:p


Just my very humble opinion the Gotham takes the cake here. Dual f113's sure do the trick for me...:D

If I am not mistaken, JL Audio Reps have stated publically that the Gothams performance is much closer to (3) F113's Fathoms rather than 2 (which would seem to be a more obvious comparison). Either way it SHOULD outperform the 1812 and the Gothams cabinet is a a work of art itself (I perfer it to the 1812, which is excellent in its own right).

if I was gonna use it for music, I'd pick the Velodyne ... whether it be the 1812 or multiples of DD18 (for ease of moving).

I don't know the distortion measurements of the JL subs, so I can't guess on that. but the gothams look nicer, and would be a perfect match to B&W 802D's or higher ... :)

for HT ... I'm going for multiple ported subs.

So the good looks overcome the massive underperformance? At least we know what your priorities are.

"I say old chap, that is one fine looking subwoofer"

"Thank-you my good man"

"Too bad it's so expensive for what it actually does"

"Yes, quite"

Jesse, you never cease to amaze me with your ability to take my words and twist them into whatever you want them to be.

You now know what my priorities are ?

You should get your own television show: "Jesse the Amazing Psychic".

Does anyone have expirence with JL's ARO and Velo's EQ (DD/SMS-1)? How do they compare/differ?

Craig-

I just find this thread stupid. Anyone who can afford either of these subs should

a) know exactly why they want either of them
b) have so much cash that they don't care and are mainly buying them for looks/bragging rights/whatever other stupid reason they can think of

Neither sub represents any amount of value for dollar.

Does anyone have expirence with JL's ARO and Velo's EQ (DD/SMS-1)? How do they compare/differ?

The SMS-1 has a lot more capability ... it is an 8 band parametric EQ with both automatic and manual adjustments available. Even in automatic mode it will allow almost anyone to achieve a +/- 3 dB response curve in room.

The ARO is a single band automated unit, and will fix the largest peak, but no more than that.

Craig-

I just find this thread stupid. Anyone who can afford either of these subs should

a) know exactly why they want either of them
b) have so much cash that they don't care and are mainly buying them for looks/bragging rights/whatever other stupid reason they can think of

Neither sub represents any amount of value for dollar.

Jesse, If you think this thread is "stupid", You should have ignored this it. Value for dollar is a relative thing. The 1812 made some fantastic sounding bass in the very large room in which I auditioned it, while looking fantastic in the process. Whether or not it is worth the $8500 I was quoted at the dealer is a personal decision.

cnewlander is looking for help in deciding which is a better option for his system: The Gotham or the 1812.

He was not looking to be told that he is looking for bragging rights, nor that his reasons for wanting one of these great products are "stupid". :rolleyes:

JL Gotham. It looks better, imho, it would outdisplace the Velo, and it looks better :) If you are paying that much money for a consumer product, it has to sound good, do good, and look good at the same time. THe SMS-1 is pretty powerful EQ, but depending on your room and how much bass traps you have, you may not need more than 1 band of PEQ.

Jonomega: I do like the looks of the Gotham. IMHO, placement and EQ are huge factors of a subs performance. While one band of PEQ may be enough my thought is its nice to have additional filters for fine tunning. Even then I would think an SMS-1 could be added to the Gotham if additional filters are needed.

Don't forget to send us some picture once you make up your mind...My personal favorite is the Gotham...They just look menacing subs,..I am a happy papa of a F113 can't imagine how one of these beast would sound..Knowing the power of these little guys..


Djoel

4 Danley DTS-20 passives with matching amplifiers and structural insurance.

4 Danley DTS-20 passives with matching amplifiers and structural insurance.

The street pricing on the Gotham will be in the $8500 range ... can you do this for $8500 ? Well ... even 2 with amps will cause serious damage.

We could also do 4 Elemental Designs A7-900's for $6800 delivered (15% discount on system pricing).

Overkill CAN be fun ... :D

Craigsub,
did you ever test or hear a DTS-20? How would it rate? Anyway we are talking some serious bass with any of these.

Craigsub,
did you ever test or hear a DTS-20? How would it rate? Anyway we are talking some serious bass with any of these.

My brother got to check one out at a pro-audio show a couple of years ago (perhaps last year) ... and was astounded at what a single 12 incher could do. If memory serves, they measured over 110 dB at 2 meters GP at 20 Hz.

Given the choice between a Velodyne 1812 or JL Audio Gotham g213 what would you choose and why?

i would choose 4 Gotham's for the LFE channel and stereo 1812's for the main left/right channels

:D:cool:

i would choose 4 Gotham's for the LFE channel and stereo 1812's for the main left/right channels

:D:cool:

That sir is the right answer

I have auditioned both the Velodyne 1812 and the JL Audio Gotham, in good setups. The 1812 audition was in a half million dollar home theater, and the JL Audio was in a gigantic house with no walls, effectively.
The Gotham buries the 1812, in most areas. The Gotham buries everything. I have heard two Fathoms in a very small room, and the Gotham makes them sound wimpy.
I was with some friends when I heard the Gotham, and they were jumping up and down screaming "Buy this one!" So I did. I have had the Gotham for about two months. It's like owning your own personal nuclear weapon.
Cons to the Gotham: at some frequencies, not as muscal as some other high-end subs, like my B&W 855s (i've got a couple of those in the system as well). But that's getting really picky. The other con is that it doesn't go much below 20hz. In my room, by my measurements, it's solid down to about 18hz, and down about 3db at 16hz. So when you get those rare really low notes, you miss a little. My B&W 855s, in my room, are solid down to 16hz and only off about 3db at 12hz. That's a little better.
For overall performance, you can't beat the Gotham.
I was actually quite disappointed with the 1812, given all it's hype. It had good bass below 20hz,and was fairly musical, but just didn't have the impact you'd expect from a $15k subwoofer.

Interesting report on the Gotham. Thanks for that, but why would it make two Fathoms sound wimpy? That doesn't make much sense. Any guess as to why?

Interesting report on the Gotham. Thanks for that, but why would it make two Fathoms sound wimpy? That doesn't make much sense. Any guess as to why?



I had the option of buying one Gotham or two Fathom 113's. I actually wanted two Gothams but could not afford to at that time.;) After auditioning both I ended up with the two Fathoms. The Fathoms pressurize my room 20x15 dedicated theater just fine. Two Fathoms have more power than one Gotham. The drivers are slightly different between the two. Supposedly better in the Gotham. If you have the funds go with the Gotham.

It doesn't make sense for one Gotham to beat two Fathoms, and it costs almost like 4 Fathoms. But it smoked them. It could have been the demo setup for the Fathoms, I don't know. Two Fathoms have a lot more amp power than one Gotham. I suspect the reason is that putting the two drivers in one incredible cabinet gets a certain synergy. Setting up two subs is very tricky -- took me months to get the two B&W 855s to work well together. Money-wise I wanted two Fathoms to beat the Gotham. When I heard two Fathoms, I thought "there's some awesome subwoofers!" When I heard the Gotham, well to say I was blown away is about right. We were in a large mansion, in the main living area. The room was about 30'high by 35' by about 40'. Open hallways led off in all directions. Each explosion blew my friends jacket around.
My room is about 10'high by 26' by 19'. The couch is about 18' from the Gotham. During action scenes the whole couch shakes. CDs fall off the bookshelves. Now, the Gotham was carefully placed; we did the crawl around on the floor routine.

It doesn't make sense for one Gotham to beat two Fathoms, and it costs almost like 4 Fathoms. But it smoked them. It could have been the demo setup for the Fathoms, I don't know. Two Fathoms have a lot more amp power than one Gotham. I suspect the reason is that putting the two drivers in one incredible cabinet gets a certain synergy. Setting up two subs is very tricky -- took me months to get the two B&W 855s to work well together. Money-wise I wanted two Fathoms to beat the Gotham. When I heard two Fathoms, I thought "there's some awesome subwoofers!" When I heard the Gotham, well to say I was blown away is about right. We were in a large mansion, in the main living area. The room was about 30'high by 35' by about 40'. Open hallways led off in all directions. Each explosion blew my friends jacket around.
My room is about 10'high by 26' by 19'. The couch is about 18' from the Gotham. During action scenes the whole couch shakes. CDs fall off the bookshelves. Now, the Gotham was carefully placed; we did the crawl around on the floor routine.


So did you heard the Gotham and Fathoms in the same room? Otherwise it's all subjective. I'm glad that you are enjoying the Gotham.I really disagree with the "smoked them". In what way? It's all in the setup and getting the crossover point to blend smoothly with the mains as you already know. I'm enjoying the Fathoms.Having two seperate subs spread out in the room really smoothed out the output. The Gotham was designed as a "statement piece". OBGYN has a pair of Gothams I'm surprised he's been quiet.

The Gotham, IMO, is the most beautiful sub ever made. Haven't heard one yet, but I hope to soon.

I agree that the Gotham will beat twin F113's. I have heard both in the same room and the Gotham really does take it all to the next level. 3 Fathoms may be more of a match. The Gothams cabinet is pretty big, much bigger than (2) Fathoms and actually closer to (3) F113's in size I'd guess. The G213 is pretty remarkable any way you look at it.

I have auditioned both the Velodyne 1812 and the
I was with some friends when I heard the Gotham, and they were jumping up and down screaming "Buy this one!" So I did. I have had the Gotham for about two months. It's like owning your own personal nuclear weapon.
Cons to the Gotham: at some frequencies, not as muscal as some other high-end subs, like my B&W 855s (i've got a couple of those in the system as well). But that's getting really picky. The other con is that it doesn't go much below 20hz. In my room, by my measurements, it's solid down to about 18hz, and down about 3db at 16hz. So when you get those rare really low notes, you miss a little. My B&W 855s, in my room, are solid down to 16hz and only off about 3db at 12hz. That's a little better.
For overall performance, you can't beat the Gotham.
.

Any pictures you can post of the gotham and 855s. Thanks

I've got lots of pictures at home. I'll ship a few here and post them tomorrow.

BTW, in the area of extremism, the homeowner who demoed the Gotham to me said a friend of his has a cinema room with NINE Gothams in it.

Get dual F212's all day over one G213.....this is from JL audio.

You will never even need the output of dual F212's to begin with, but what the hell! Plus you will have a better chance of smoothing the FR in room. The best single sub not integrated in the room properly.....poor FR.....means you may literally not hear what you paid for.

Go duals and hire a pro to do a real calibration in room.

Also, you need to go to the $20,000 and up gear forum and search for Gotham, F213, jl audio etc.......I found a few nice threads about the F212 and the F213. Good luck.

Also, be prepared for the inevitable stream of , "for that money I would buy 16 ID subs that would blow the Jl away!" And they may be right! Welcome to the hardest challenge you will face in life...."what sub to buy......how many....which brand......use EQ......placement......etc.!"

My advice...if you have the money, meet with a custom pro installer who is also ISF calibrator that is GREAT at what they do.....tell them your budget and goals....and let them take over. You may be surprised at where your money is best spent for an overall experience.

I got lucky and stumbled upon a guy who owns a custom install store, is the ISF trainer for Sweden, the owner of the best HT forum in Sweden, writes technical papers on sound, and is a consultant of sorts for some major CE companies (and an engineer in a past life). Lets just say he has forgotten more than I will ever know about this stuff.

I've got lots of pictures at home. I'll ship a few here and post them tomorrow.

Looking forward to the pics. By the way a JL Audio rep said the reason the Gotham is so much more expensive then 2 F113 is because of the curved cabinet. Curved cabinets usually sound better as they solve some problems but he said it is very expensive to do.
Nice to hear good things about the B&W sub as most people on this forum instantly dismiss them. The 855 also has an expensive curved cabinet and look really good but I haven't heard one. I also haven't heard a Gotham.

Here are some pictures of the system with the Gotham:

142021

142022

142023

The B&W 855s are no longer in the positions in the pics -- this was the picture right after installatino of the Gotham. It took nearly two months to get the 855s right. They each moved a few inches from where they sit in the pictures.
I've bought so many so-called hi-end subs it's pathetic. Most were Velodynes, and every last one died on me. Also had a Sunfire die, though I bought another one (the flagship this time) about a year ago. It's in the rear of the room, providing a foundation for the surrounds. It serves it's purpose well, providing ambient bass for those bass effects that are meant to wrap around you.
Which brings me to the B&W 855s. Why are they dismissed so readily? I have had two for several years now. I think they are terrific with one major flaw. They have a very smooth response curve, very flat from 16hz to 80hz. They have very low distortion, and are very musical. They blend beutifully with B&W speakers, and IMO are more musical than the JL Audio subs. If I were putting together an all-music system I would pick however many 855s I need over *anything* out there, and I do mean that. They are also very powerful, though not in the range of say a f113. Which brings me to their one big flaw. Bass below 20hz sounds great from the 855, but send it really strong sub-20hz bass and it breaks up, making loud thumping noises that ruin any effect or movie you are watching. That's not an issue for music, but the new audio codecs from Blu Ray movies are packed with really loud sub-20hz bass. This is what sent me on the quest for the ultimate subwoofer. I wanted something that would take anything you dish out without breaking up, and while we're at it deliver substantial impact.
My system is setup with each B&W 802D running in parrallel with it's own 855, and the surrounds going through the Sunfire before going into the Theta Dreadnought for amplification. So only the center channel is crossed over. The Gotham is on the LFE channel, and you guessed it, has it's own dedicated circuit.

Why didn't my pictures come thorugh? They worked fine in preview mode. I've never posted pics in this forum, some guidance would be helpful.

clicking on them doesnt work..

If you upload your pictures on a photo hosting site (photobucket, imageshack, etc) you can have your pictures show up in your post by putting the URL of the image between IMG tags, like this:

url

Here's an example picture (if you click Quote on my post you can see how it's laid out):

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg64/lalakersfan34/Gotham.jpg

Let me try the pictures again:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7766/95873818.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=95873818.jpg) http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6782/53950906.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=53950906.jpg) http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7157/24977530.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=24977530.jpg)

Trying again:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7157/24977530.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=24977530.jpg)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7766/95873818.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=95873818.jpg)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6782/53950906.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=53950906.jpg)

Looks like you have an extra set of IMG tags around each picture but no big deal there.

You have a gorgeous setup, gflip88! Those B&W's sure are pretty, and the Gotham...well, I don't think anything needs to be said :). I'd love to be fortunate enough to own such an amazing setup someday.

To answer your question, I think subs like your B&W 855's aren't brought up around here much because the subwoofer forum here tends to emphasize home theater more than music reproduction, and "bang for the buck" rather than exquisite high-end gear. Granted, we all like to drool over stuff like the Gotham, but most people here are trying to get the most output and deepest extension possible for a limited budget. Not many people have $5k+ to spend on subs. Consequently, the majority of the focus here is on products from ID companies which produce high performance subs at low prices. Whether these ID subs match or beat high end subs from other manufacturers (price notwithstanding) is up for debate. I'm sure the B&W 855's are great subs, but in this forum where output seems to be king, it will be (unfairly) dismissed quickly by many because it doesn't offer the highest SPL/dollar ratio.

The Gotham is a nice box sub but hardly the ultimate. Its pair of 13's would have a swept displacement of maybe 13L. My IB has 26L (4x18" Avalanches) and there are times when another 4 of them wouldn't hurt.

If the Gotham 213 costs 4x the Fathom 113, I'd rather have 4 of the Fathoms to allow for stereo bass and more placement options.

As I've said, on paper the Gotham shouldn't be the powerhouse it is, but....
I got a great deal on the Gotham (long story), so it costs less than 3 Fathoms. More than one more big box in the room would've become a placement nightmare, which was another factor. I've also come to realize over the years that although multiple subs have many advantages, there are big disadvantages as well. Namely they interact in complex ways. This can both smooth out FR problems, and make them worse. You fix one problem and another jumps up. I already had 3 subs in the room, and integrating more than one more into the room with limited placement options was a risk/problem I didn't want to deal with.
As it is, I'm delighted with the result. Stereo music only uses the 802Ds and 855s, and sounds very natural. Almost a flat FR there. SACD/DVD-Audio from the universal player brings in the Gotham; it's just a little too dominant there -- I'm working on that. Playing movies with DTS MA or DD TrueHD is just mind-blowing.
I had some friends over to watch a movie. The guy, after watching some of Live Free or Die Hard, said he needed a beer. His wife said she felt like she needed to put some quarters into the couch.
If you can swing it, the Gotham is the way to go. Otherwise, two f113s beats anything from Velodyne, IMO. I also auditioned the REL Studio III. It sounds terrific, but doesn't have the impact the Gotham does. Though I'd prefer it over the 1812.

As I've said, on paper the Gotham shouldn't be the powerhouse it is, but....
I got a great deal on the Gotham (long story), so it costs less than 3 Fathoms. More than one more big box in the room would've become a placement nightmare, which was another factor. I've also come to realize over the years that although multiple subs have many advantages, there are big disadvantages as well. Namely they interact in complex ways. This can both smooth out FR problems, and make them worse. You fix one problem and another jumps up. I already had 3 subs in the room, and integrating more than one more into the room with limited placement options was a risk/problem I didn't want to deal with.


Thanks for continuing to post and great pics. Since you have actually heard the Gotham and F113 I will take your opinion over the other posters who are saying multiple F113 are better even though they havent heard the Gotham.
One question is are you doing any bass eq with a preamp. The B&Ws dont have eq and the Gotham has just one band. Is the bass smooth in your room without it? How did you measure the response for sub placement since you said you have moved the B&Ws. Just wondering. Thanks

My name is George, BTW.
I'm using a Classe ssp-800 for a preamp. It has five EQ bands per channel. I've tried using the EQ in the preamp, and classe won't like this but I was disappointed. The EQ introduced subtle distortion I didn't like (the Classe sounds incredible -- why muddle that with EQ?). I've tried to improve the room with the panels and bass trap you can see in one of the pictures. With the B&W 855s, I've moved them back and forth and played a lot with their levels and crossovers. It's tricky, but finally it's pretty smooth. I ran the ARO on the Gotham, and it actually came out pretty smooth. A bit of a hump at 25-30hz, which is pretty common.
I use Stereophile Test CD 2 and a really, really expensive sound meter (don't remember the brand) to check FR.