Anyone heard of American Theater (http://www.amsound2.com/) or better yet, bought from them? They seem to do quite a bit of biz on Audiogon. Despite their claims, I would have no expectation of getting a mfr's warranty from them as they don't appear to be an authorized dealer (for pretty much anything), but was wondering if they are otherwise considered reputable/reliable.

Thanks.


Scott

Anyone heard of American Theater (http://www.amsound2.com/) or better yet, bought from them? They seem to do quite a bit of biz on Audiogon. Despite their claims, I would have no expectation of getting a mfr's warranty from them as they don't appear to be an authorized dealer (for pretty much anything)That about sums it up for me; "despite their claims". Do you want to do business with liars?

Reputable? NOT!

A few years back, I placed an order with them for a Yamaha receiver. They didn't ship it on the date promised, so I called them a few days later. By that time, it still hadn't shipped. I then asked to cancel my order, but they refused to honor my request. They had my money from my charge card, but didn't have the item to ship to me, but they still refused to allow me to cancel the order? Hmmm ...

Needless to say, I had to get my credit card company involved to get the charges reversed. Even then, the process wasn't a pleasant one as they were cussing at my credit card company.

Audiogon refuses to hear any complaints about this company. I guess they provide enough revenue to Audiogon, it allows Audiogon to turn the other direction. Sad.

Thanks for the feedback all.

I can't say I really expected to hear anything encouraging. I thought there was plenty of red flags, but I figured I'd put it out there and see if I could find any first hand experience.

Thanks guys.


Scott

I remember reading stories uglier than that posted above. Even some legal action against them. Just stay completely away from them.

Ed

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/American_Theater_Systems

As already mentioned by wje. Just because Amsound/American Theater Systems advertises and sells a lot on Audiogon, do not take that as meaning they are a vendor that is authorized to sell what they sell or being great to deal with. Because amsound/American Theater, is somehow able to get all his negative reports and feedback on audiogon to mysteriously just disappear. There have been people in these forums that have bought from them by going through audiogon, and had big problems with them and reported them as negative feedback to audiogon, only to have their feedback removed almost instantly. Contrary to popular belief, Audiogon's feedback system is no better than ebays, because it can be and has been manipulated by those that know how to do it.

So if you are thinking about a purchase from Amsound/American Theater Systems....

Buyers beware!!!!

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/American_Theater_Systems

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4315362&&#post4315362

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5874660&&#post5874660

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3826117#post3826117

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/819.html

Gotta love the AVS crowd for pulling extremely relevant references....

Thanks again all. I would have been shocked if anyone actually said something positive about them, but reading through seeing some of those links is just plain scary.

It is kind of a shame that to a less skeptical eye, they probably look like a highly reputable seller on Audiogon especially considering the vast number of positive feedbacks.


Scott

What's sad, is that there are so many people that still think that Audiogon has a more honest system/better feedback reputation in place than ebay does. When that is really not the case. Because it can be, and has been/is, manipulated by those who decide to do so and know how to do it. And also Audiogon seems to be almost a willing partner in letting it happen, for whatever real reasons they do is really not known. But financial ones would probably be a very good guess. What makes it worse, is even the ones like this vendor, that have had numerous complaints dating back for many years now, are still made out to look good in their daily listings there only because of what looks to be a somewhat easily manipulated/corrupt feedback system by those who are in the know, and doing it.....

For a company with 30 years experience, they sure have a lot of typos on their website.

Audiogon - this is a sellers site. They get paid by the seller, so it is in their best interest to promote sellers. That is why BOTH seller and buyer must agree before negaive fedback is allowed. It is rare that a seller will give negative feedback about a buyer and it is usually the other way around (ie no one complains cash is not mint condition do they?) If you are a seller, you will never agree to negative feedback. And then as a buyer that wants to post negative feedback, you have to pay $$$ to go to arbitration. Then the arbitrator will usually want the 2 parties to work it out. Guess who selects the arbitrator - Audiogon of course.

and once you agree to arbitration, you cannot post negative feedback.

Do a search if you don't believe me - how many posters have negative feedback on audiogon?

Audiogon - this is a sellers site. They get paid by the seller, so it is in their best interest to promote sellers. That is why BOTH seller and buyer must agree before negaive fedback is allowed. It is rare that a seller will give negative feedback about a buyer and it is usually the other way around (ie no one complains cash is not mint condition do they?) If you are a seller, you will never agree to negative feedback. And then as a buyer that wants to post negative feedback, you have to pay $$$ to go to arbitration. Then the arbitrator will usually want the 2 parties to work it out. Guess who selects the arbitrator - Audiogon of course.

and once you agree to arbitration, you cannot post negative feedback.

Do a search if you don't believe me - how many posters have negative feedback on audiogon?


Your absolutely right, here is an email reply from them

"Hello, We have very strict rules of when Negative Feedback is allowed for any users. This is done to maintain the usefulness of Negative Feedback. No users receive special treatment in this regard. The condition is that there must be a commitment to sell. That is an Auction won with Reserve met or No Reserve, or when Money or Goods have exchanged hands in the case of a Classified or Wanted. In addition, to leave ANY feedback (Positive or Negative) the item purchased must have been advertised on Audiogon. If you have a specific case that fits these rules where a Feedback was lost, please let us know."

I left there name off but you get the point:(

Nothing like having a pretty much worthless feedback system with no teeth to it....

Well, this sounds like an opportunity for someone to create a website where people can post unencumbered feedback then.

Well, this sounds like an opportunity for someone to create a website where people can post unencumbered feedback then.

There is one, and American Theater isn't scored too badly there.
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/American_Theater_Systems

There is one, and American Theater isn't scored too badly there.
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/American_Theater_Systems

Yeah, not great, but not awful either.

Resellerratings is a good site, but there are definitely shill (fake) positives posted there. Like everything, you have to interpret things a bit for your situation, not just take the total / average.

I tried to post negative feedback on this guy, ( see my post ) my bad internet purchase experience in Subwoofers.

Audiogon came back and said I didn't make the actual purchase of this Sub on their site so my complaint will not be handled. I just saw the link to this thread and it's EXACTLY right about this dealer.

I was waiting for the 2 or 3 days www.amsound2.com had to respond. Basically I inquired about a sub in another color than the one they had posted at the time. I found him on Audiogon and ended up making a purchase. Should be the " Soprano " sound.com company.

We talked back and forth by email and he got me. Must have been like shooting fish in a barrel for him.

It just pisses me off that I wasn't happy with my purchase and they offer NO options at all. Site says if you're not happy, you can trade for equal or higher.
The wife tells me it's an open box now and no one wants it!

I don't want to rewrite the story, but one of you saw it and gave me this link.

Please just don't let your friends get hooked like I did. They say the pen is mightier than the sword. We'll see. I do plan on some other action as well.

Thanks

By telling you he was an authorized dealer and that the sub had a MANUFACTURER's warranty he violated chapter 93 of Mass Gen Law for consumer protection:

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/93a-2.htm

Also:

Refund, Return & Cancellation Policies:
Massachusetts law requires that a merchant clearly and conspicuously disclose the store's refund, return, or cancellation policy. A merchant cannot misrepresent the store's policy or fail to honor it. Generally, clear and conspicuous disclosure means that the merchant must display a written return policy that the buyer can see and understand before the purchase is made. As long as the product is not defective, a merchant can chooseany return policy, provided the merchant discloses this policy to the buyer before the purchase. Stating the policy on the receipt would not satisfy this disclosure requirement, because it is not provided until after the sale. (M.G.L. c. 93A, §2(c), 940 CMR 3.13(2)).

There is no mention whatsoever on their site regarding returns which actually violates FTC regulations for on-line merchants. Just tell them that you are reporting them to the Mass Attorney General's office, BBB, and the FTC, they'll take it back.

I'm assuming this also applies to internet sales too. If so,

http://3ec.us/creatingfun/imgs/albums/video/Misc_Applause.gif

I'm assuming this also applies to internet sales too. If so,

http://3ec.us/creatingfun/imgs/albums/video/Misc_Applause.gif

And there's the rub: since the unit was NOT purchased in Massachusetts it would not be covered by Massachusetts law. I wonder if he paid Massachusetts sales tax on the purchase.:)

By selling to a Mass resident they are in effect doing business in Mass. Either way M.G.L. 93 is much like the FTC guidelines for deceptive marketing:

http://www.keytlaw.com/FTC/Rules/ftc0005001.htm#II.%20The%20
Applicability


It covers every medium, internet, mail order, phone order, etc. It really doesn't matter where you live, they claimed to be an authorized dealer and are selling goods on the promise of a "full manufacturer's warranty" which is void because they are not authorized according to Velodyne. In addition there are no terms of sale anywhere on their site or shopping cart. The FTC requires that all terms of a sale are disclosed up front, they can not just print the terms on the invoice as the invoice was a document printed after the transaction.

American Theater's website is pretty lame, speakers , subs, and refrigerators ??? They look more like a clearing house for discontinued and overstocked merch. than a home theater specialist. Hopefully this thread will keep someone else from getting burnt from these guys, or perhaps maybe even American Theater will read it and do the right thing by Zork.

I usually buy locally or used but my last purchase was on-line. I bought a pair of speakers from Upscale Audio in CA, they were an authorized dealer and the manufacturer had no territorial restrictions that would void the warranty. They were great to do business with, I placed the order 15 min before closing and they sent me the tracking info by 2 the next afternoon. All this from a company that for the most part sells from their physical store front, most of their products can not be sold on-line which their website clearly states.

Shame on a company that advertises on their site and Audiogon as an authorized dealer. They are not authorized for B&K, Marantz, Snell, PSB, Denon, NHT, KEF, Boston, Energy, Revel, Earthquake, ...

They sell under American Theater Sys. and Krazy Kat, check out their BBB stats:

http://trenton.e-asp.net/NIS4/bbbreportaccbuscontent.asp?ID=1&ComID=0221000001004452

http://www.orlando.bbb.org/newsearch2.asp?ComID=073300021949218

Shady, you tell me:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/819.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/1320.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/852.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/825.html

Shame on a company that advertises on their site and Audiogon as an authorized dealer. They are not authorized for B&K, Marantz, Snell, PSB, Denon, NHT, KEF, Boston, Energy, Revel, Earthquake, ...

I'm still surprised that Audiogon is so permissive of their shady business practices. I mean, they (Audiogon) can't possibly be ignorant of complaints against them. I guess that says something about the power of the advertising dollar. It's just kind of disappointing that a site like Audiogon that RELIES on fair and honest sellers keep American Theater around.


Scott

I'm still surprised that Audiogon is so permissive of their shady business practices. I mean, they (Audiogon) can't possibly be ignorant of complaints against them. I guess that says something about the power of the advertising dollar. It's just kind of disappointing that a site like Audiogon that RELIES on fair and honest sellers keep American Theater around.


Scott
Audiogon will continue to look the other direction ... as long as American Theater keeps paying the advertising bills. Since the posts on Audiogon's forum are all moderated, none of my posts where I launched my complaint against ATS were ever published. Hmm ... I wonder why?

Oh, and selling refrigerators? That is too funny. I wasn't aware that they broadened their product line.

Over the years here, there have been a lot of interesting discussions regarding Kevin McEvoy (or whatever the heck his name is). I'm sure some of those threads might be searchable, if you wanted to read up more on this company.

There are so, so many more reputable companies out there - spend a few extra $$, go with someone reliable and will support you, the consumer, with your purchase without hassling you, cussing at you or playing immature games.

Shady, you tell me:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/819.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/1320.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/852.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/825.html
That's quite funny that these threads are around. On AudioAsylum, I posted with the handle T2T. In those theads, you can see where one individual challenged me at times (the one who was typing in all caps). Hmm ... I wonder if it was the owner of ATS coming to the rescue?

I'd think only a public campaign of letter writing/emailing Audiogon would give them cause to rethink their association.

Without getting into details, I have also had less than positive experiences with this company via Audiogon. Stay Away.

Allan

Without getting into details, I have also had less than positive experiences with this company via Audiogon. Stay Away.

Allan

Can someone point a link to some of their products for sale at Audiogon? Just went there to look for them, and a casual search didn't turn up anything.

do a search for american theater there are a lot of unhappy customers. I found more than a couple threads in different forums.

Unfortunatly they sell on audiogon under several different names. Dr_Audio was one of the other names they also used to use, but I think that one may have been finally banned from audiongon under that name. ATS and amsound are other names they have also used.

They also at one time used to use the name of Sound and Cinema, in Flemington NJ. But they closed down that operation, quite possibly due to the all the complaints against them under that name. But they still use ATS, American Theater Systems and amsound, and sometimes they will still use Dr_Audio.

Here you can see that American Theater Systems, amsound, and Sound and Cinema, are all one in the same! And how there were police complaints made with the Flemington NJ P.D, against the Sound and Cinema name.

http://www.geocities.com/amsound_com_info/

Notice those dates in the link above, some are 9+ years old allready, so they have been pulling this kind of crap for at least 10 years now if not longer, as also according to that link, they started up business in 5/18/1995.

There are bad dealers, but this one tops them all:

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=27051

Notice those dates in the link above, some are 9+ years old allready, so they have been pulling this kind of crap for at least 10 years now if not longer, as also according to that link, they started up business in 5/18/1995.Hey, if it ain't broke, why fix it?:)

never been a customer as I buy my stuff from Avscience (nice plug right?) but I would assume that their (American Theater Systems) rating doesnt completely suck because probably most of the time, people get what they order in a timely fashion. The true test of a company's service is not when things go right but when things go wrong. How do you deal with cancellations, backorders and crazy customers is what determines a good company from a bad one. There are many time when the company cant control the cirumcustances like a backorder so a customer needs to understand but on the other hand, no company should ever insult or lie to their customer or try to cheat them.

amsound2.com; American Theater, whatever the real name

I will NEVER buy from this place. I'm glad to see all the negative complaints about them. They are not authorized to sell anything

and the guy there is a total A- Hole

today June 3rd, I called and asked about an Audiogon ad for Sherwood Newcastle 972 Receiver, which I was pretty sure was not even out yet !

He told me it just sold; and I told him nicely a couple times that I thought it was not out yet and was asking him questions nicely and he said a few times it has been out for 2 1/2 months and then he said did you call to argue with me and hung up the phone. The SOB !!

I called Sherwood right after and CONFIRMED the product is NOT on the market yet.

how could this Idiot tell me repeatedly that this product has been out for 2 1/2 months? I have been monitoring this myself for a few months and I know this is nonsense.

so in addition to all the other negative feedback on them, I want to add this experience as well

to all you audio shoppers out there, DON'T SPEND YOUR MONEY at this place

Audiogon loves paid advertisers; so all claims will favor them.

Money can buy a lot in this world. Unfortunately.

Pretty typical New York reseller dealer. They advertise all sorts of stuff they don't have cheap, then when they get an order, they call around to see if they can get it transshipped from an actual dealer. If they can't get it, they'll try to hold onto the money as long as possible (Ponzi). They'll sometimes buy transshipped gear from low rent dealers who are trying to make their volume bonus and they'll also sell other items that you can get thru distribution. I worked for a guy back in the day who did that with McIntosh, Mirage and Martin Logan. Guy ordered in pallets of Mac amps/preamps/etc and sold them to a south Korean dealer in L.A. at 5 points. I didn't stay there long. It eventually came back to bite him when a Korean customer had a tube go bad and tried to put a warranty claim in. Now you can get products like Parasound and Martin Logan thru large distributors, though the margins are lower since the cost is higher (distributor markup). Many of the higher end companies are hurting for cash and turn a blind eye to Ebay sales and even trans shipping (a lot has changed in the last half a year as far as dealer contract "enforcement") so it is not as taboo as it once was.

Personal bad experiences and American Theater and Audiogon's blatent bias towards them. As stated previously, the guy who ownes American Theater is a complete A-whole. Unfortunately, money is king .... as this is the only way I can reasonably understand why this guy is in business.

If everyone who had problems called the bbb then sent a letter to Audiogon telling them that because of this company they will no longer receiver your business things might change. I of course realize this will not happen but people like this tick me off.

Personal bad experiences and American Theater and Audiogon's blatent bias towards them. As stated previously, the guy who ownes American Theater is a complete A-whole. Unfortunately, money is king .... as this is the only way I can reasonably understand why this guy is in business.

Comes down to greed. People see ultra low prices and think they are getting a good deal when in reality the cheapest price isn't always the best deal. Ultimately, the only way to guarantee you'll get the product you want reliably and with a warranty is to pay a fair price with an authorized dealer who has at least a modicum of knowledge and enthusiam for the product they sell (there are all too many guys out there who are just there to move boxes and they could care less about what it is they sell). Negotiate a reasonable price that lets them make some profit (that IS the reason they are there) and provide a cushion to help you with any problems which occur.

Either that or hope there is an ID company who has a product similar to what you want and order it from them, taking advantage of their low overhead.

Pretty typical New York reseller dealer. They advertise all sorts of stuff they don't have cheap, then when they get an order, they call around to see if they can get it transshipped from an actual dealer. If they can't get it, they'll try to hold onto the money as long as possible (Ponzi). They'll sometimes buy transshipped gear from low rent dealers who are trying to make their volume bonus and they'll also sell other items that you can get thru distribution. I worked for a guy back in the day who did that with McIntosh, Mirage and Martin Logan. Guy ordered in pallets of Mac amps/preamps/etc and sold them to a south Korean dealer in L.A. at 5 points. I didn't stay there long. It eventually came back to bite him when a Korean customer had a tube go bad and tried to put a warranty claim in. Now you can get products like Parasound and Martin Logan thru large distributors, though the margins are lower since the cost is higher (distributor markup). Many of the higher end companies are hurting for cash and turn a blind eye to Ebay sales and even trans shipping (a lot has changed in the last half a year as far as dealer contract "enforcement") so it is not as taboo as it once was.

We enforce the terms of our dealer agreements. And if I catch a dealer transshipping to a whore dealer, I usually parade his severed head around on the end of a stick for all to see. At the same time I scream like Walter Sobchek in "The Big Lebowski"..."Do you see what happens, Larry?? Do you SEE what happens when you....."

Back on topic, I know nothing of American Theater, but with a name like that, do you think their speakers are made in America? Just askin'...

We enforce the terms of our dealer agreements. And if I catch a dealer transshipping to a whore dealer, I usually parade his severed head around on the end of a stick for all to see. At the same time I scream like Walter Sobchek in "The Big Lebowski"..."Do you see what happens, Larry?? Do you SEE what happens when you....."

Back on topic, I know nothing of American Theater, but with a name like that, do you think their speakers are made in America? Just askin'...

Lol.

And if I catch a dealer transshipping to a whore dealer,

I like that...."whore dealer." :D

I like that...."whore dealer." :D

It should be legal to hunt them...