Hi, I noticed that most PCM 5.1 tracks are only available on blu-ray. Does anyone know if studios will start releasing PCM tracks on HD-DVD soon? I'm kinda sick of the Dolby vs DTS politics in hollywood. PCM tracks are the only uncomressed tracks and in most cases the original sound mix of the movie. I heard from most HD owners that this tracks are the best.

nah, that's just hear-say

PCM, DolbyTrueHD or dtsHD-MA all deliver lossless audio. PCM sounds unbelievably good, but it is a space and BW hog so only BD has the ability to hold it. HD DVD can do it, but it would affect PQ and eat up a lot of that 30GB on HD DVD.

A 24bit/48kHz 5.1 PCM encode occupies a BW of 6.9Mbps; a 16-bit/48kHz 5.1, 4.6Mbps.

HD DVD has lossless audio, no difference in quality.
But the file size is way smaller than uncompressed audio.

Has anyone encoded a 24bit/48kHz DolbyTrueHD track?

For HD DVD it does make more sense to use one of lossless codecs to save space and yes quality should not suffer theoretically since it is lossless.

According to Highdefdigest, A Mighty Heart will have 5.1 PCM. It's going to be interesting to see if has any impact on quality overall, and I do question Paramount's choice to use PCM over TrueHD.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Paramount/Disc_Announcements/A_Mighty_Heart_to_Beat_on_HD_DVD_this_October/880

Do any HD players decode PCM?

I know that TrueHD is supposed to be the same as uncompressed PCM and even better in some cases. However, my ears do not lie and uncompressed PCM is the best thing I have heard. I have about the same number of HD DVDs as Blu rays. The top 10 or 15 audio demo material in my library are all uncompressed PCM. It is breathtaking.

Do any HD players decode PCM?

All of them, it's the format they send out to your reciever over HDMI when decoding the lossless formats (or other codecs if you tell it to)

Has anyone encoded a 24bit/48kHz DolbyTrueHD track?

There are several titles available right now that have 24bit DTHD tracks. I suggest taking a look at bene's spec threads - both are stickies.

I know that TrueHD is supposed to be the same as uncompressed PCM and even better in some cases. However, my ears do not lie and uncompressed PCM is the best thing I have heard. I have about the same number of HD DVDs as Blu rays. The top 10 or 15 audio demo material in my library are all uncompressed PCM. It is breathtaking.

I can't disagree with that. If there's room, PCM is the way to go. Disney has been outstanding with their 24-bit tracks.

Hi, I noticed that most PCM 5.1 tracks are only available on blu-ray. Does anyone know if studios will start releasing PCM tracks on HD-DVD soon? I'm kinda sick of the Dolby vs DTS politics in hollywood. PCM tracks are the only uncomressed tracks and in most cases the original sound mix of the movie. I heard from most HD owners that this tracks are the best.

PCM definitely offers the best sound a soundtrack can give you, but it's really not necessary on HD DVD, as Dolby True HD (and DTS HD Master, when it can be decoded) is capable of giving you as much fidelity with a fraction of the space and without taxing the bandwidth as much. Blu-ray has 20 gigs extra space and a higher peak on the bandwidth budget, so several studios like to pull out all the stops with PCM, but with HD DVD it makes sense to use Dolby TrueHD and maximize the space and bandwidth for the picture information. You really aren't losing anything you'll miss in the True HD mix.

I used to think not having TrueHD was a big deal with blu-ray until I recently aquired a blu-ray player and listened to uncompressed PCM. I was wrong. You're right, you don't need TrueHD.

Paramount's A MIGHTY HEART, starring Angelina Jolie comes on exclusively on HD DVD in October with 5.1 PCM tracks.

-E

Do any HD players decode PCM?

PCM is in the mandatory spec IIRC, but TrueHD is also in the mandatory spec, and TrueHD is lossless.

Do any HD players decode PCM?

They play CDs.

I used to think not having TrueHD was a big deal with blu-ray until I recently aquired a blu-ray player and listened to uncompressed PCM. I was wrong. You're right, you don't need TrueHD.

That's more the issue of producers not licensing TrueHD and putting it on HDDVDs though, yes?

Because there should be absolutely no difference between PCM and lossless TrueHD. IIRC TrueHD supports 24/96 compressed lossless, and possibly 24/192?

I know that TrueHD is supposed to be the same as uncompressed PCM and even better in some cases. However, my ears do not lie and uncompressed PCM is the best thing I have heard. I have about the same number of HD DVDs as Blu rays. The top 10 or 15 audio demo material in my library are all uncompressed PCM. It is breathtaking.

Are you sure the TrueHD tracks had the same initial data (presumably 24/96) as the PCM tracks? It's all digital, and lossless digital compression should result in an identical output, otherwise it wouldn't be lossless. Also, I presume you are using HDMI and passing the signal to your receiver that way, and it's registering the same bitrates from both, not using your HDDVD player to reencode into DD or DTS?

Lossless compression means _no_ change in the source data. When I unzip a file, I don't expect a file in the zip to look any better or worse than it did when I made the zip....

Are you sure the TrueHD tracks had the same initial data (presumably 24/96) as the PCM tracks? It's all digital, and lossless digital compression should result in an identical output, otherwise it wouldn't be lossless. Also, I presume you are using HDMI and passing the signal to your receiver that way, and it's registering the same bitrates from both, not using your HDDVD player to reencode into DD or DTS?

Lossless compression means _no_ change in the source data. When I unzip a file, I don't expect a file in the zip to look any better or worse than it did when I made the zip....

Actually I am using analog cables for both uncompressed PCM and TrueHD. I have heard a rumor on the Blu Ray forum that Dolby is requiring some kind of noise reduction for TrueHD. I can't remember the exact requirements some one was stating that Dolby required. Whatever the case, I will stand by the uncompressed PCM. It is truly amazing with it's depth, fullness, and clarity. The soundtrack on Reign of Fire BD will reach out and grab you..especially the last scene when they go back to London and face the dragons. The audio scares my wife.

Actually I am using analog cables for both uncompressed PCM and TrueHD. I have heard a rumor on the Blu Ray forum that Dolby is requiring some kind of noise reduction for TrueHD. I can't remember the exact requirements some one was stating that Dolby required. Whatever the case, I will stand by the uncompressed PCM. It is truly amazing with it's depth, fullness, and clarity. The soundtrack on Reign of Fire BD will reach out and grab you..especially the last scene when they go back to London and face the dragons. The audio scares my wife.

Fair 'nuff, though at this point I'm thinking the difference in sound is more an issue of DAC quality in the Bluray vs. HDDVD player, and AFAIK TrueHD hints the signal but if the sound engineers mess with the audio data before it's compressed then it's an apples-to-oranges comparo.

And also to be fair, there are an awful lot of non-TrueHD discs out there for HDDVD, though given my sub-phile hearing it's not that much of an issue (I enjoy audio spatiality more than resolution), so criticism that there aren't enough TrueHD tracks is understandable (especially for concert/music HDDVDs)..

Fair 'nuff, though at this point I'm thinking the difference in sound is more an issue of DAC quality in the Bluray vs. HDDVD player, and AFAIK TrueHD hints the signal but if the sound engineers mess with the audio data before it's compressed then it's an apples-to-oranges comparo.

And also to be fair, there are an awful lot of non-TrueHD discs out there for HDDVD, though given my sub-phile hearing it's not that much of an issue (I enjoy audio spatiality more than resolution), so criticism that there aren't enough TrueHD tracks is understandable (especially for concert/music HDDVDs)..


Well since we haven't had another player to compare it to well have to see when the new Onkyo comes out and or when we get bistream passthrough.

But with tripple layer discs (51 GB of storage) announced by Toshiba the possebility to release movies with more audio tracks like PCM uncompressed may be possible, right?

when will studios start using this tripple layer discs?

But with tripple layer discs (51 GB of storage) announced by Toshiba the possebility to release movies with more audio tracks like PCM uncompressed may be possible, right?

PCM has no benefit on HDDVD.

Dolby TrueHD decodign is mandatory on all HDDVD players and provides the exact same quality as PCM so if a studio wants to release master perfect audio the logical choice would be Dolby TureHD.

With that said Pat Metheny Group HDDVD has PCM audio, as well as DTSHD-HR and DTS Core.

PCM has no benefit on HDDVD.

But it does on blu ray?

PCM has no benefit on HDDVD
I'd take that further - it has no benefit anywhere. If it's lossless then it's lossless, period. So what the .zip file version is different from the original file? Glad the folks who believe that weren't involved in the development of fax machines.

I'd take that further - it has no benefit anywhere. If it's lossless then it's lossless, period. So what the .zip file version is different from the original file? Glad the folks who believe that weren't involved in the development of fax machines.

I mean nothing personal by this but you need to listen to uncompressed PCM on a blu ray. I understand the science is the same. It's just not the same to my ears. I think will have to go with my ears. I wish I had an uncompressed PCM and TrueHD track to compare on HDDVD...but the best soundtracks in my library (66 BD, 57HDDVD) are uncompressed PCM.

Possible reasons for PCM:

Licensing cost, why pay for something if you don't need to.

Cost to create audio tracks on disc - new tools and inexperienced encoders taking more time.

Hardware-compatibility, no need for "anything" new, it's there from the start. Dolby TrueHD is only mandatory for HD DVD for 2.0 although all SAL-players support it up to 5.1 iirc. DTHD not mandatory on Blu-Ray which to a degree may explain why it's less common.

Lossless also doesn't mean they couldn't screw it up somehow, there's lot's of talk on dialnorm and what it may cause. I doubt it's as easy as running a zip-program but it would be reassuring to know if it is.

I mean nothing personal by this but you need to listen to uncompressed PCM on a blu ray. I understand the science is the same. It's just not the same to my ears. I think will have to go with my ears. I wish I had an uncompressed PCM and TrueHD track to compare on HDDVD...but the best soundtracks in my library (66 BD, 57HDDVD) are uncompressed PCM.


Until there is a player that uses the same audio compenents for processing the soundtrack, this is not an apple to apple comparison. Comparing two different players is what you are doing, not the audio technology.

you would need the same movie with uncompressed audio and true HD, and play them on the same player, using the same transport method.(analog or hdmi or bitstream)

To my knowlegde this comparision does not exist yet. Maybe it does, but I'm not aware of it.

PCM track is usually louder and has better dynamics than DTHD.
The dynamics and the soundstage feel is better with PCM than DTHD sans Matrix and V.

PCM track is usually louder and has better dynamics than DTHD.
The dynamics and the soundstage feel is better with PCM than DTHD sans Matrix and V.

Would this imply that it's not plug'n play to do lossless or is there something inherent in the compression scheme that reduces dynamic range (sorry if it's a newbie question).

Would this imply that it's not plug'n play to do lossless or is there something inherent in the compression scheme that reduces dynamic range (sorry if it's a newbie question).
It would imply that these guys aren't bothering to level-match before making comparsions.

It would also imply that lgans316 doesn't know how to properly use the word "sans."

Until there is a player that uses the same audio compenents for processing the soundtrack, this is not an apple to apple comparison. Comparing two different players is what you are doing, not the audio technology.

you would need the same movie with uncompressed audio and true HD, and play them on the same player, using the same transport method.(analog or hdmi or bitstream)

To my knowlegde this comparision does not exist yet. Maybe it does, but I'm not aware of it.

There is on the Blu Ray side. I am very neutral in this war but my Panny 10A plays TrueHD and uncompressed PCM. The Uncompressed PCM are always more dynamic. Discs such as Ghost Rider that contain both PCM and TrueHD, for my money, the uncompressed PCM is always slightly if not significantly better. Demo material in my library is always Uncompressed PCM.

Would this imply that it's not plug'n play to do lossless or is there something inherent in the compression scheme that reduces dynamic range (sorry if it's a newbie question).

My thoughts exactly! Something is screwy with dynamic range IMO.

Uncompressed PCM is a WASTE OF SPACE! When will people get that through their heads? There is no quality difference between an uncompressed track and a lossless track. Any difference you hear is a placebo effect!

My thoughts exactly! Something is screwy with dynamic range IMO.

Patently wrong! Lossless compression is analagous to a file-based compression algorithm. It only chops out empty space. If I had to guess, I'd say the reason Paramount is using PCM is because the disk was ready for production on Blu Ray. Instead of doing extra work they chose to use what they had and put it on HD DVD.

There is on the Blu Ray side. I am very neutral in this war but my Panny 10A plays TrueHD and uncompressed PCM. The Uncompressed PCM are always more dynamic. Discs such as Ghost Rider that contain both PCM and TrueHD, for my money, the uncompressed PCM is always slightly if not significantly better. Demo material in my library is always Uncompressed PCM.

Louder does not equal better. Equalize the volume and do a double-blind study. No one will be able to tell the difference. Put your True HD vs Dolby Digital and leave the volume higher on the Dolby Digital. 9/10 people will think the Dolby Digital sounds better. Hearing is subjective to begin with, but people often associate volume with quality and that is not correct.

There is some interesting give and take on lossless/lossy audio going on over in the Insiders thread if any of you folks are interested.

My thoughts exactly! Something is screwy with dynamic range IMO.

If they are the same soundtrack and the PCM sounds different than the DTHD, there is an error someplace. DTHD and PCM are both lossless so they should sound identical unless 1) The player treats DTHD differently or 2) The DTHD is from a different source (e.g. the DTHD track is a 20-bit master while the PCM is 16-bit master). Even Sony has stopped with the "PCM is better because it is uncompressed" nonsense now that the PS3 can do Dolby TrueHD. Their two biggest films of all time, Spiderman 1 & 2, are arriving on Blu-ray ONLY with DTHD tracks- no PCM!
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Sony/Disc_Announcements/Full_Specs_in_for_Spider-Man:_High-Def_Trilogy_Blu-ray/887

Louder does not equal better. Equalize the volume and do a double-blind study. No one will be able to tell the difference. Put your True HD vs Dolby Digital and leave the volume higher on the Dolby Digital. 9/10 people will think the Dolby Digital sounds better. Hearing is subjective to begin with, but people often associate volume with quality and that is not correct.


Forget about volume. The bass is consistently lower on Ghost Rider PCM over DTHD. I would love to compare an uncompressed PCM and DTHD on the same HDDVD and see if I get the same results.

was the Fifth Element remastered blu-ray title. My setup used to test the two is a Yamaha 1700/ps3 hdmi system. I can tell the difference from the two right away. The pcm sounds alot better to me on the center channel for dialog. With the dhd I had to adjust the volume alot during the non action scenes because of the low dialog issue.

Uncompressed PCM is a WASTE OF SPACE! When will people get that through their heads? There is no quality difference between an uncompressed track and a lossless track. Any difference you hear is a placebo effect!

Not true. I had never heard of uncompressed linear PCM before Blu Ray. I owned an A-1 months before I went to the dark side and got a Blu Ray player. I had sampled DTHD on HDDVD and thought they were outstanding...then I got a Blu player and heard PCM. If anything, I was conditioned to believe DTHD would sound better. It's what I expected. I have tried to reason this out in my head for months and I can't. PCM just sounds better IMO.