It was confirmed to me in the Insiders thread that BD+ will require firmware update at least on some players.

I've done hundreds, if not thousands of the firmware updates on many different CEs and PCs.

Let me tell you something, my success rate is not 100%. And this is not because I don't know how to do it.

BD folks, be careful. You can turn your player into a brick fairly easily.

Is the same not true for HD DVD players? Both have their share of problems that requires firmware updates to fix...that is not a format issue...that's an industry issue that consumers have been trained to accept products that require fixing as being OK...Its ashame, but lets not pretend either of these formats are better/worse than any piece of technology.

Is the same not true for HD DVD players? Both have their share of problems that requires firmware updates to fix...that is not a format issue...that's an industry issue that consumers have been trained to accept products that require fixing as being OK...Its ashame, but lets not pretend either of these formats are better/worse than any piece of technology.

But the firmware updates that Toshiba has been releasing seems to be small enhancements and tweaks to resolve general playability and functionality problems. The only update that completely enhance the player was the update for Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and another one with regards to enhancing the network functionality of the player.

On the other hand, when we talk about BD+ or BD-J v1.1 profile firmware updates, it seems to be a complete upgrade/overhaul of existing mechanism on the software side, not a general functionality enhancement or tweak.

This is how I see it, I may be wrong.

Is the same not true for HD DVD players? Both have their share of problems that requires firmware updates to fix...that is not a format issue...that's an industry issue that consumers have been trained to accept products that require fixing as being OK...Its ashame, but lets not pretend either of these formats are better/worse than any piece of technology.

I am not aware of any HD DVD player which would require firmware update in order to play particular title. If you have a link, that would be great.

I would also be interested in people experience turning their players into the bricks as a result of the unsuccessful firmware update.

Let me tell you something, my success rate is not 100%. And this is not because I don't know how to do it.



We believe you...........NOT!

What a load of FUD.
Which players currently have been turned into bricks by firmware updates?

I am not aware of any HD DVD player which would require firmware update in order to play particular title. If you have a link, that would be great.

I'm pretty sure there are numerous HD DVD titles with DTS-MA that will never play their main audio track fully on any current HD DVD player.

The Onkyo will be the first.

What was the point in creating this thread? To inform us of what we already know, that players require firmware updates... or to just throw more punches at the other side? Please.

We believe you...........NOT!

What a load of FUD.
Which players currently have been turned into bricks by firmware updates?

I never said I turned any BD or HD DVD player into a brick doing the firmware update.

I said I did turn some CEs and PCs into the bricks doing the firmware update.

I said firmware updates are not 100% safe.

Which part of my statement you don't understand and call a "load of FUD"?

We believe you...........NOT!

What a load of FUD.
Which players currently have been turned into bricks by firmware updates?

Dude, if you don't believe that some players were/will be bricked by bad FW updates, you're not even capable of being realistic. The gen 1 Samsung had a ton of them from what I remember.

It was confirmed to me in the Insiders thread that BD+ will require firmware update at least on some players.

I've done hundreds, if not thousands of the firmware updates on many different CEs and PCs.

Let me tell you something, my success rate is not 100%. And this is not because I don't know how to do it.

BD folks, be careful. You can turn your player into a brick fairly easily.Can HD-DVD players be turned into molten metal and plastic when owners do firmware updates on them?

The real question is:
Will those discs not play the movies that are released? We have been told for months that all players would play movies without an update.

Dude, if you don't believe that some players were/will be bricked by bad FW updates, you're not even capable of being realistic. The gen 1 Samsung had a ton of them from what I remember.

I'm not capable of being realistic?
Fanboy much?

I never said I turned any BD or HD DVD player into a brick doing the firmware update.

I said I did turn some CEs and PCs into the bricks doing the firmware update.

I said firmware updates are not 100% safe.

Which part of my statement you don't understand and call a "load of FUD"?

The whole thread is FUD man, don't act so innocent.

BD folks, be careful. You can turn your player into a brick fairly easily.

I'm not capable of being realistic?
Fanboy much? Well, you could always just attack me instead of addressing the facts, I guess.

Will movies protected with BD+ include the firmware update on the disc?

And can one refuse to update it and still see the movie? :confused:

Well, you could always just attack me instead of addressing the facts, I guess.

Of course they can be bricked...HD DVD, Blu-Ray, PC...anything requiring a firmware update that doesn't have a stand-by firmware in place for backup...its not format specific

I think that with BD+ the firmware update is probably the least of your problems. When are they releasing Rootkit V2 anyway?

The whole thread is FUD man, don't act so innocent.

BD folks, be careful. You can turn your player into a brick fairly easily.

If I consider the thread a FUD, I prefer to ignore such thread.

I suggest you do the same.

As of my right to post my thoughts and results of my experience, you are nowhere near someone who can tell me what I can and can not do.

Can HD-DVD players be turned into molten metal and plastic when owners do firmware updates on them?
No, but that is not what is being said. There have been HDDVD players bricked by bad FW attempts. It happens. I had a particular device that I trashed 2 of them before I realized that it didn't like the compact flash that I was using.

Well, you could always just attack me instead of addressing the facts, I guess.

You have to understand his anger Slim.

Bad week for BD fans.

Also, HDDVD gets a bad rap over firmware. Lock ups etc. There is now a real possibility that BD+ will cause problems with some BD players during a time of bad news. If for some reason BD+ starts causing a bunch of problems, the forums and the internet will be lit on fire, and this is press BD does NOT need.

Of course they can be bricked...HD DVD, Blu-Ray, PC...anything requiring a firmware update that doesn't have a stand-by firmware in place for backup...its not format specific

I have never understood why more companies don't have a backup in place. It seems that it would be cheapen than reflashing at a repair facility.

Can HD-DVD players be turned into molten metal and plastic when owners do firmware updates on them?
No but if you power off the box (or have a power outage or trip on the cord) an Toshiba HD DVD player can be turned into an inert box. Stone cold dead. Ie a brick.

When you have more less A/V sophisticated consumers doing in huge numbers some people will just screw it up.

Lots of warnings in the HD DVD firmware upgrade instructions.

Real chance that a big firmware update that is reconfiguring the software might have a lot of consumer issues, as any firmware release may have issues.

Its a problem of a rolling specification that could have insignificant or major issues.

Its one reason that firmware updates go through a lot of testing and have to be considered carefully as no matter what you do , some users will have issues.

Its just would be tougher in this case as most users would be forced to use it for BD+ disc implementation and for them to be able to use BD+ enabled content.

Well, you could always just attack me instead of addressing the facts, I guess.

Thanks for the mid-afternoon injection of humor. Got a good chuckle there.

I have never understood why more companies don't have a backup in place. It seems that it would be cheapen than reflashing at a repair facility.

Generally a bad update isn't covered under warranty, so its the consumer that is screwed when that happens, I'd gladly pay the extra $10 up front to cover the cost of the extra chip...it only needs to cover the basics to get the machine up and in a state to reflash the primary...not sure why consumers don't demand it...

No, but that is not what is being said. There have been HDDVD players bricked by bad FW attempts. It happens. I had a particular device that I trashed 2 of them before I realized that it didn't like the compact flash that I was using. I have seen a bricked HD XA1 that the user pulled the power cord out from during a CD firmware update because it was taken longer than expected. It had to be sent back to Toshiba.

Another issue. Is the update CD or download based?

Without mandatory ethernet ports, many players will have to wait until they get a CD to play that content, an buring a CD ISO image is beyond the abilities of most mass market consumers.

of course , the PS3 with an internet connection would not have that problem, but what about households without it or with dialup?

If you have a sony player and you registered it you get an update DVD with every firmware update, not sure about the others though...I personally prefer to have the update on a disc...for me its on less link in the chain to have to worry about, but I do understand your point...My father would absolutely not be able to burn an ISO to update his players.

No but if you power off the box (or have a power outage or trip on the cord) an Toshiba HD DVD player can be turned into an inert box. Stone cold dead. Ie a brick.

When you have more less A/V sophisticated consumers doing in huge numbers some people will just screw it up.

Lots of warnings in the HD DVD firmware upgrade instructions.

Real chance that a big firmware update that is reconfiguring the software might have a lot of consumer issues, as any firmware release may have issues.

Its a problem of a rolling specification that could have insignificant or major issues.

Its one reason that firmware updates go through a lot of testing and have to be considered carefully as no matter what you do , some users will have issues.

Its just would be tougher in this case as most users would be forced to use it for BD+ disc implementation and for them to be able to use BD+ enabled content.

Correct.

Considering that the manufacturers need to test all possible combinations, such as doing an update from version 1.0b, then 1.0c, then 1.0e etc for all the models in existence, it can turn out as a big problem.

BD+ updates are not trivial AFAIK.

BD+ runs the entire mini computer emulation on the player.

Then there is a backward compatibility issue.

I would be very surprised if there were no issues after such an update.

FUD thread.

Firmware updates are necessary for machines from both formats.

FUD thread.

Firmware updates are necessary for machines from both formats.

I've personally had enough bad experiences with firmware upgrades that I am always concerned when I do them. I am happy that you have never had a bad experience, and hope that it continues for you. The thing for me is that HDDVD will play all movies without a firmware upgrade. Will BD do that?

FUD thread.

Firmware updates are necessary for machines from both formats.

I have absolutely no vested interest in one format or another.

In fact, I am a big supporter of the indefinite format war.

BD+ updates are not trivial.

They are very different from the other firmware updates which mostly address one or two specific problems with the specific players.

BD+ firmware updates will turn your player into something different from what it was before.

I've personally had enough bad experiences with firmware upgrades that I am always concerned when I do them. I am happy that you have never had a bad experience, and hope that it continues for you. The thing for me is that HDDVD will play all movies without a firmware upgrade. Will BD do that?
Actually HD DVD players didn't play all movies without a firmware upgrade. Early HD DVD players required firmware updates to play later discs.

Similarly, HD DVD players required firmware updates to enable features (such as TrueHD 5.1 support).


I have absolutely no vested interest in one format or another.

In fact, I am a big supporter of the indefinite format war.

BD+ updates are not trivial.

They are very different from the other firmware updates which mostly address one or two specific problems with the specific players.

BD+ firmware updates will turn your player into something different from what it was before.
It's common sense that something like BD+ would require firmware updates for some machines. Did it really need a doom-and-gloom thread? I would have been shocked if no players required a firmware update to enable BD+.

I just want to make sure that I have the point of this thread correct.

BD+ will require firmware update on some players...this means that on those players, you will NOT be able to to play movies that use BD+. Are we talking all, most, some, or a handful?

If it is all or most, then this is a huge deal. Most people (my parents included) have no clue how to do a firmware update. Most BD players do not have an Ethernet port, so you would have to create your own disc, or request one from the manufacturer and wait.

So which is it? Which BD+ discs won't play? All, most, some, or a handful?

Let's work to get the truth out and not spin.


PS. I bricked a PC DVD drive when the power at my house flickered during an update.

If I consider the thread a FUD, I prefer to ignore such thread.

I suggest you do the same.

As of my right to post my thoughts and results of my experience, you are nowhere near someone who can tell me what I can and can not do.

Who's talking about your rights?

You're in the wrong forum, you should be in BD Hardware

As for your last statement, you're absolutely right; I'm not the boss of you.

:rolleyes:

We believe you...........NOT!

What a load of FUD.
Which players currently have been turned into bricks by firmware updates?
So what you're trying to say is that FW updates are 100% safe?

LMAO - thanks, I needed a good laugh.

There's always a chance you can brick the device, regardless of the brand or format.

The BD+ Technology

The BD-ROM players include a small Virtual Machine (VM, BD+ Content Code interpreter) to provide a basic processing environment for BD+ Content Code. In addition, the VM allows Studios to optionally include Title-specific BD+ Content Code on the Disc.

The Virtual Machine is a small BD+ Content Code interpreter that includes 100 lines of code and 60 instructions, so the impact on player system resources is minimal.

During reproduction of a BD-ROM title, the VM will run the Content Code to apply the Security Check and enable content playback when the player is legitimate. A security code runs continuously during playback in order to correct the corrupted stream and produce viewable content. Media Transform is processed in real time block by using the output from Security VM:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/BD+_Architecture.jpg

http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/BD+_Media_Transform.jpg

The BD+ deployment includes three phases:

- Transform code (can be included on any title)

It swaps a part of AV data with separately prepared AV data. For example, such a part of AV data on the disc may be corrupted and will not be useful without corrections with BD+ content code running in the BD+ security VM. This same process can be used for forensic marking purpose, which may be used to identify the source of content that has been illegally distributed.

- Basic Countermeasure (when a hack has been confirmed)

When a hack is suspected, content provider can enter into a hack study. Once a hack is confirmed by the manufacturer of suspected Player, then Content Provider can have developed and release BD+ Content Protection code that detects and responds to the hack.

- Advanced Countermeasure (when basic countermeasure code does not work

BD+ includes the ability to load native code (code that runs directly on the player's host process). It is allowed to deploy it only after it is proven that basic countermeasure code cannot address the hack.

According to the BDA, to successfully attack the BD+ system, pirates would have to overcome the AV content security system (e.g. extract AACS keys) and also overcome title-specific security code (e.g. reverse engineer security code).

As a last note, the BD+ Content Code works only while Disc with the code is loaded. After its ejection, the BD player will return to its state before the code is loaded.

In addition, the BD+ Key is available to cryptographically differentiate the target, hacked player from non-hacked, legitimate players so that BD+ Content Code can work on such hacked player identified with BD+ Key.

The BDA Association believes that the BD+ content code should be included by Studios on a title-by-title basis.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=17598

(Just wanted to add some actual factual information to this thread for anyone wanting to know a little more about BD+)

Actually HD DVD players didn't play all movies without a firmware upgrade. Early HD DVD players required firmware updates to play later discs.

Similarly, HD DVD players required firmware updates to enable features (such as TrueHD 5.1 support).



It's common sense that something like BD+ would require firmware updates for some machines. Did it really need a doom-and-gloom thread? I would have been shocked if no players required a firmware update to enable BD+.Common knowledge to who? What do you think is going to happen when average guy (and granted there aren't many of them ATM) puts a BD+ disc in his player and it says it can't play it (the HDDVD players would at least try as far as I know, and I was able to play movies with problems without the updates). You can't be so much of a fanboy that you can't see the issue in that.

I HATE updating firmware on PCs...I hold my breath and my hearts skips beats waiting for the successful update message. I have been lucky enough not to kill any hardware (so far).

They have dual BIOS chips on motherboards...why can't they do it on CEs and let them work like RAID?

Common knowledge to who? What do you think is going to happen when average guy (and granted there aren't many of them ATM) puts a BD+ disc in his player and it says it can't play it (the HDDVD players would at least try as far as I know, and I was able to play movies with problems without the updates). You can't be so much of a fanboy that you can't see the issue in that.
The same thing that happens with HD DVD players. You are told to update the firmware.

P.S. You might want to check my sig to see what type of "fanboy" I am.

First and foremost, this thread is the very definition of FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt re: BD+, pure and simple.

Second, does anyone actually believe CE companies will not throughly test out any firmware updates before they sent it out into the wild and risk not only the negative PR that would ensue but costs as well. The risk associated with a BD+ firmware update will be no higher than any other update if good testing practices are followed.

Finally,

I am not aware of any HD DVD player which would require firmware update in order to play particular title. If you have a link, that would be great.

You must have a really short memory if you cannot remember the firmware update Toshiba issued to address copies of Children of Men and The Good Shepherd that would not play due to an issue with the thickness of those Combo Format discs.

I just want to make sure that I have the point of this thread correct.

BD+ will require firmware update on some players...this means that on those players, you will NOT be able to to play movies that use BD+. Are we talking all, most, some, or a handful?

If it is all or most, then this is a huge deal. Most people (my parents included) have no clue how to do a firmware update. Most BD players do not have an Ethernet port, so you would have to create your own disc, or request one from the manufacturer and wait.

So which is it? Which BD+ discs won't play? All, most, some, or a handful?

Let's work to get the truth out and not spin.


PS. I bricked a PC DVD drive when the power at my house flickered during an update.

I believe on "most" players you will not be able to play any BD+ disc ( read Fox disc ) without firmware update.

It could be done nicely, like the user puts in BD+ title, the software is fired up, says to itself: "OK, it is Samsung XYZ firmware version abc . Let's update it so the title can be played." Nice OSD "Now performing the firmware update. Please do not turn off your player". Then "Restart", and bingo, everything can be played.

Or it could be done not so nicely. User puts in BD+ title, gets: "You can not play this title on this device. Please contact your hardware manufacturer for the update". Then all the fan begins.

Or it can be done nasty. Scenario 1, except after the restart only this particular title can be played.
Or any BD+ can be played, but not the titles w/o BD+. Or no titles can be played.

We'll see how it will work out.

Well judging from my firmware update track record, this outta be interesting with the BD+ stuff.

My Garmin GPS=Took a dump after firmware

My PC=Took a dump after firmware

30 Dell PC's at work=Gave up the ghost after one of the many Dell updates

First and foremost, this thread is the very definition of FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt re: BD+, pure and simple.

Second, does anyone actually believe CE companies will not throughly test out any firmware updates before they sent it out into the wild and risk not only the negative PR that would ensue but costs as well. The risk associated with a BD+ firmware update will be no higher than any other update if good testing practices are followed.

Finally,



You must have a really short memory if you cannot remember the firmware update Toshiba issued to address copies of Children of Men and The Good Shepherd that would not play due to an issue with the thickness of those Combo Format discs.

Testing does not mean jack. As someone involved in supporting a major product from a developer, it will still crash, still cause problems after 999999999999999999999999999999 hours of testing.

First and foremost, this thread is the very definition of FUD. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt re: BD+, pure and simple...


What are you talking about?

The title of the thread is " BD+ will require firmware update on some players".
From what I understand is that on some BD players you will not be able to play ANY BD+ disc until you apply a fix (firmware). Not just 1 title, but we are talking ALL future titles with BD+.

Is that correct? If it is, it is a HUGE deal. If not correct us with some facts and not just spin. What is the TRUTH.

Toshiba customers still seem to be happy enough even after those Toshiba HD DVD firmware updates.

Second, does anyone actually believe CE companies will not throughly test out any firmware updates before they sent it out into the wild and risk not only the negative PR that would ensue but costs as well. The risk associated with a BD+ firmware update will be no higher than any other update if good testing practices are followed.
Of course they do (they ALL do) but it's not 100% for any device. Which is why I'm not certain I follow the purpose of the thread.............but I digress :D

Testing does not mean jack. As someone involved in supporting a major product from a developer, it will still crash, still cause problems after 999999999999999999999999999999 hours of testing.

Of course problems will occur, is anything in life fool-proof? Testing mitigates risk however. I have applied about four or five firmware updates each to my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 and my Toshiba HD-XA2, and I have had no problems. I guess I'm just really, really lucky, huh? :rolleyes:

I believe on "most" players you will not be able to play any BD+ disc ( read Fox disc ) without firmware update.

It could be done nicely, like the user puts in BD+ title, the software is fired up, says to itself: "OK, it is Samsung XYZ firmware version abc . Let's update it so the title can be played." Nice OSD "Now performing the firmware update. Please do not turn off your player". Then "Restart", and bingo, everything can be played.

Or it could be done not so nicely. User puts in BD+ title, gets: "You can not play this title on this device. Please contact your hardware manufacturer for the update". Then all the fan begins.

Or it can be done nasty. Scenario 1, except after the restart only this particular title can be played.
Or any BD+ can be played, but not the titles w/o BD+. Or no titles can be played.

We'll see how it will work out.
That is the issue I have and if they are able to do that upgrade with little or no actual involvement of the customer it would be a different issue.

...It could be done nicely, like the user puts in BD+ title, the software is fired up, says to itself: "OK, it is Samsung XYZ firmware version abc . Let's update it so the title can be played." Nice OSD "Now performing the firmware update. Please do not turn off your player". Then "Restart", and bingo, everything can be played...

That would be sweet, and make this almost a non-issue. We will see what happens.

Toshiba customers still seem to be happy enough even after those Toshiba HD DVD firmware updates. I am unhappy every time I run one. I feel the same way about my BD player, receiver, computers and every other device I own that needs them.

Is that correct? If it is, it is a HUGE deal. If not correct us with some facts and not just spin. What is the TRUTH.

Thanks for making my point for me. "Is that correct"? I don't know, you don't seem to, so why are we getting worked up about this now if not to spread FUD?

He's the long and short of it, you're an early adopter, you wanted to be on the cutting edge, apply the firmware update and hope for the best. Are you people who are so worked up about this honestly going to sit there and tell me you haven't applied a firmware update to any of your HDM players yet?

I'm alright with firmware upgrades for optical drives. But I've had horrible experiences upgrading firmwares for wireless routers.

^ I'm alright with firmware upgrades for optical drives. But I've had horrible experiences upgrading firmwares for wireless routers.

Yeah, and the firmware update I had to have applied to my Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi was a horrible inconvenience, but it just seems like the "cost of entry", "par for the course", etc. to me.

I believe on "most" players you will not be able to play any BD+ disc ( read Fox disc ) without firmware update.

Please tell us how you've come across this information and which BD+ LLC insider member from either Fox or ArcSoft Inc. has given you this information? Is the insider from another company?

Currently ArcSoft is the only adopter listed working with Fox and Fox are the only content participants and eligible code developers.

http://www.bdplusllc.com/home/list_of_adopters_content_participants_and_eligible_code_deve lopers

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9711/bdcodeyf6.png

No response?

I don't know any 'normal' person (J6P) who's ever updated their firmware on anything!

I don't know any 'normal' person (J6P) who's ever updated their firmware on anything!Especially, if it concerns burning a CD/DVD which they have also never done.

No response?


What response are you waiting for?

That only Fox discs will have BD+?

That's what I said.

That only players with ArcSoft chip will require the firmware update to play Fox BD+ discs?

Very well might be true. Although I doubt it.

No response?

According to your table none of the ce manufacturers have coded BD+ stuff in their players yet.

It would not surprise me if 1st gen br players have serious issues with fox titles the coming months. They already had serious issues with fox titles the last six months... :p

I don't know any 'normal' person (J6P) who's ever updated their firmware on anything!

Windows updates probably would be the closest most people have come.

What response are you waiting for?

What response was I waiting for?

It was confirmed to me in the Insiders thread that BD+ will require firmware update at least on some players.

I wanted to know who the insider was that told you this and who they work for. If it's the insider thread here then I'm sure whom they work for will be in their sig.

What response was I waiting for?



I wanted to know who the insider was that told you this and who they work for. If it's the insider thread here then I'm sure whom they work for will be in their sig.

It is on the insider thread here. Use search.

I don't know any 'normal' person (J6P) who's ever updated their firmware on anything!You don't know anyone with a modern games console?

I know people who have xbox 360 and Wii's. No idea if they've updated firmware. But they're tech savy anyway, not J6P

It is on the insider thread here. Use search.
Ha, ha, thanks a lot man. Something you don't want everyone to see?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11370426&postcount=2360
BD+ was supposed to be implemented in all players, but until titles with BD+ are released (assuming they haven't been already; I imagine it'll be entirely transparent to the user) one can't rule out the possibility that some players may require updates.


This is the response you're basing this thread on?

How do you get......

It was confirmed to me in the Insiders thread that BD+ will require firmware update at least on some players.

.....from Talkstr8t's response?

FUD-busted.

Ha, ha, thanks a lot man. Something you don't want everyone to see?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11370426&postcount=2360




This is the response you're basing this thread on?

How do you get......



.....from Talkstr8t's response?

FUD-busted.


Yep, that's exactly it.

Not good enough for you?

Sorry.

I can bet you $1 BD+ deployment "will" require firmware updates on some players.

Oct 2 is not too far.

FUD, no. Word of warning, yes.

And you know, there is a life beyond AVS and Insider thread.


http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/06/22/blu-ray_adds_more_content_protection/1

The Blu-ray format is about to receive another layer of content protection, called BD Plus, which is designed to work alongside current content protection methods.

The specification for BD Plus was finalised earlier this week and were actually ahead of schedule.

BD Plus works differently to previous content protection systems: instead of preventing the discs themselves from being copied, it checks the player to see if it has been hacked and then locks down the media.

Considering AACS - the common content protection measure on both Blu-ray and HD DVD - has more holes in it than a fine Swiss cheese, I'm sure the studios are quite pleased with the announcement. In fact, it could be a reason why some studios have chosen to support Blu-ray exclusively.

Some might say the fact that AACS has been compromised has had a noticeable effect on releases from Blu-ray exclusive studios like Fox and MGM, as neither has released a Blu-ray movie since April. It has also held back major releases like Star Wars, and the entire James Bond back catalogue.

Based on the fact that every movie protection standard that has ever been implemented, we wouldn't be surprised if this one eventually falls by the wayside too. It's going to be challenging on the hackers part though, as BD+ can protect each Blu-ray Disc with a title-specific key, which will make key circumvention much more difficult than it was with AACS.

There's no word on whether this new Blu-ray feature will work on early Blu-ray players at the moment, but we've been told that some players might require a firmware update. In other words, you're not going to find out until you try a BD+ protected disc in your player... Oh joy

Why don't you try sticking to what you're told next time instead of twisting insiders words around?

Unbelievable.

Why don't you try sticking to what you're told next time instead of twisting insiders words around?

Unbelievable.


Unbelievable indeed.

"one can't rule out the possibility that some players may require updates. " is a great way to say what I said without any legal consequences.

All right, I am done talking to you bud.

Why are hd dvd supporters getting their panties in a bunch about what happens to BD players anyways? I bet the required FW updates will be included on the movie disc and automatically install itself. That's how Sony handles major FW updates with PSP.

So what you're trying to say is that FW updates are 100% safe?

LMAO - thanks, I needed a good laugh.

There's always a chance you can brick the device, regardless of the brand or format.
This does not just apply to Hd players. It is not that common but I have seen plenty of dead system boards after bios upgrades on PCs..

My personal view and the one I would take with the device manufacturer is if the suggest firmware version bricks my device you the OEM repair it. I know that is pretty much the position with HP on their PCs and Compaq before it my experience as well.

The user does not have to make a mistake for a flash to fail, they just do. It is unusual to see these days but some devices have a separate protected rom that is used to boot media for firmware udpating and even if the flash fails you can do it again because you don't change the boot firmware flashing the machine.

Unbelievable indeed.

"one can't rule out the possibility that some players may require updates. " is a great way to say what I said without any legal consequences.

All right, I am done talking to you bud.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/may
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will

Check it out some time.

I've worked computer repair as my main job for ~15 years now, and I cannot even think of one time when a firmware update has bricked a piece of hardware I've worked on. I don't deny that it hasn't happened to others, I just greatly disagree that it's a major concern that should cause panic in hardware owners. This thread's main purpose is to throw punches at the other format.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/may
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will

Check it out some time.

I've worked computer repair as my main job for ~15 years now, and I cannot even think of one time when a firmware update has bricked a piece of hardware I've worked on. I don't deny that it hasn't happened to others, I just greatly disagree that it's a major concern that should cause panic in hardware owners. This thread's main purpose is to throw punches at the other format.

It happens. I know of a very recent case where a support person in India had to be coached after they told a customerthat warranty ight denied over a firmware failure. Like I said it is not common, should be way less than one percent but it happens.. let's just say I am a PC insider with a very Computer company and work in an area of product service management. It happens. I suspect it happens a lot more often due to power failure that just a failed copy. But I don't care how many years you have doing PC repair it happens. We have seen it happen in a lab environment even.. could be finicky flash memory could be something in the environment, could be a bit or bits switched on the source media. It could unpack wrong

So I see a lot of spin, but I guess the title of the thread is true.
I think it is safe to say a lot of BD stand-alone owners are going to be upset.
How many stand-alones have ethernet ports?

So I see a lot of spin, but I guess the title of the thread is true.
I think it is safe to say a lot of BD stand-alone owners are going to be upset.
How many stand-alones have ethernet ports?

Why do you need an ethernet port to upgrade firmware?

But the firmware updates that Toshiba has been releasing seems to be small enhancements and tweaks to resolve general playability and functionality problems. The only update that completely enhance the player was the update for Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and another one with regards to enhancing the network functionality of the player.

On the other hand, when we talk about BD+ or BD-J v1.1 profile firmware updates, it seems to be a complete upgrade/overhaul of existing mechanism on the software side, not a general functionality enhancement or tweak.

This is how I see it, I may be wrong.You sound like firmware flashing is different in "a complete upgrade/overhaul of existing mechanism" and "a general functionality enhancement or tweak", which is ridiculous. It's not about upgrading WinXP to Vista.

My BD player has an easy FW updating mechanism. It's called PSN.

There's no word on whether this new Blu-ray feature will work on early Blu-ray players at the moment, but we've been told that some players might require a firmware update. In other words, you're not going to find out until you try a BD+ protected disc in your player... [/B]Oh joy

a) There's no word
b) We've been told

Told by who? Galileo? Magellan?

More unsubstantiated fluff. Your thread is the definition of FUD as evidenced by how it was worded and you don't have the bollocks to admit it.

I think it is safe to say a lot of BD stand-alone owners are going to be upset.
How many stand-alones have ethernet ports?

What's that got to do with anything?

Actually, BD is having a great week!!!

Q:
1.
Do any of these players(HD or BD) have failsafe FW built-in to the equipment/HW/BIOS to overcome an issue if a failed FW update ?

Most modern devices have Failsafe FW that can be activated via some sequence of button pressess that usually allows another FW update.

2.
Has ANY HD or BD player become a brick after a FW update and become unrecoverable without sending it in to the manufacturer ?

If yes, can you list the brand and model.

.

Scared of firmware updates? Jeez, you're timid.

Remember when the BD fanboys mind always touted "studio support" as monumentally important?

Now that they've lost a MAJOR STUDIO, suddenly it's not. lol

"We didn't like any of those movies anyway" ROTFLMFAO

Why do you need an ethernet port to upgrade firmware?

Heck of a lot easier than burning a disc. You can't include the update in a movie, because if a bug is found later, that would be a nightmare. Also, I bet each individual player will need its own patch. Trying to decide which needs what would be another nightmare.

All around if this is true, it will not play well in the press.:mad:

Heck of a lot easier than burning a disc. You can't include the update in a movie, because if a bug is found later, that would be a nightmare. Also, I bet each individual player will need its own patch. Trying to decide which needs what would be another nightmare.

All around if this is true, it will not play well in the press.:mad:

Like most topics on this forum it's overblown FUD.

Upset? I think most of us look for reasons to upgrade.....It is part of tbe hobby.

But if this new spec is only for enhanced PIP...then it isn't worth bothering about at all. Last I heard the ALL current BD players will play ALL BD movies (present AND future).

^ What if you heard wrong?

I haven't. The spec is pretty clear.

PIP crap + interactive stuff. Things the average a**hole wouldn't even think look for.

Moreover, there are so few BD standalones why would BDA even care? If it is important (and it isn't), just upgrade. Remeber, early adopters own these players so this crowd will mostly understand and rebuy. I would.

But again, PIP / interactive? Who gives a ****?

This is simply a HD DVD fanboy talking point.

Moreover, there are so few BD standalones why would BDA even care?
Bingo. The BDA doesn't seem to care.

We agree...So few players and a worthless feature to be added.

But again, PIP / interactive? Who gives a ****?

This is simply a HD DVD fanboy talking point.


No, it's a BD talking point. You know " 50 GIGABYTYES MEANS MORE CONTENT!!!"

PIP isn't content....it is for extra marketing stickers that are affixed to the packaging.

PIP isn't content....it is for extra marketing stickers that are affixed to the packaging.

The 300 HD DVD disc's use of it was *AWESOME*, amazing to see the CG-less frames in contrast to the real movie.

300 extras.....Yawn.....

300 extras.....Yawn.....

It'd be AWESOME!!! if the BD had it though, right?

I bought the bd version. Perhaps others may watch it but who has the time?

I bought the bd version. Perhaps others may watch it but who has the time?

You could watch it 50x over with the amount of time you spend on this board.

Good job buying the inferior version when you claim to have both formats in the home.

You could watch it 50x over with the amount of time you spend on this board.

Good job buying the inferior version when you claim to have both formats in the home.
Look who's talking.... the new guy who signed up today and accumulated 41 posts and done nothing all day but bash BD and leave childish comments using adolescent grammar and punctuation used on myspace. :eek:

Look who's talking.... the new guy who signed up today and accumulated 41 posts and done nothing all day but bash BD and leave childish comments using adolescent grammar and punctuation used on myspace. :eek:

ad hominem is great.

Now answer the question please.

Can HD-DVD players be turned into molten metal and plastic when owners do firmware updates on them?

Only when you have to boil them to make them work. :D

Never mind BD+.

You just spent $1000 on a BD HD camcorder, $700 on a BD burner, proofed a $20 blank BD-R/RE media of little Johnny's first steps on your $450 PS3, took grandpa to Fry's and convinced him to buy the Sony 300 BD player, hooked it up for him, and guess what? The stupid disk won't play in it because the grace period for AACS non-compliance expired. I don't see why you BD fans would defend that, except I've seen that you will.

oh god, like hd-dvd never required a fw update. wait when I own the slower then hell a2 player the first thing i did was flash it.

Never mind BD+.

You just spent $1000 on a BD HD camcorder, $700 on a BD burner, proofed a $20 blank BD-R/RE media of little Johnny's first steps on your $450 PS3, took grandpa to Fry's and convinced him to buy the Sony 300 BD player, hooked it up for him, and guess what? The stupid disk won't play in it because the grace period for AACS non-compliance expired. I don't see why you BD fans would defend that, except I've seen that you will.
Please stop, no logic allowed on AVS......thank you for your cooperation :D

(just kidding around folks)

oh god, like hd-dvd never required a fw update. wait when I own the slower then hell a2 player the first thing i did was flash it.
That's not slower than hell, this is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gQG4OFgrpA

I am not aware of any HD DVD player which would require firmware update in order to play particular title. If you have a link, that would be great.

I would also be interested in people experience turning their players into the bricks as a result of the unsuccessful firmware update.

Huh? My HD-A1 went through 6 firmware upgrades, each time because it couldn't play a disk or because it had a hdmi error when playing a disk.

Never mind BD+.

You just spent $1000 on a BD HD camcorder, $700 on a BD burner, proofed a $20 blank BD-R/RE media of little Johnny's first steps on your $450 PS3, took grandpa to Fry's and convinced him to buy the Sony 300 BD player, hooked it up for him, and guess what? The stupid disk won't play in it because the grace period for AACS non-compliance expired. I don't see why you BD fans would defend that, except I've seen that you will.

I don't have the 300 player, but I just upgraded the firmware on my ps3 yesterday and it still plays my AVCHD disks like it always did after every firmware upgrade. Could it be just the 300 player needs a firmware upgrade?

Never mind BD+.

You just spent $1000 on a BD HD camcorder, $700 on a BD burner, proofed a $20 blank BD-R/RE media of little Johnny's first steps on your $450 PS3, took grandpa to Fry's and convinced him to buy the Sony 300 BD player, hooked it up for him, and guess what? The stupid disk won't play in it because the grace period for AACS non-compliance expired. I don't see why you BD fans would defend that, except I've seen that you will.

1.
Is this error displayed on the screen or how did you come to this conclusion ?

2.
Is all this just a "What IF" speculation because it's been discussed that if you author you own BD, there will be no issues playing them.
Please search the Insiders thread for more details.

I just want to make sure that I have the point of this thread correct.

BD+ will require firmware update on some players...this means that on those players, you will NOT be able to to play movies that use BD+. Are we talking all, most, some, or a handful?

If it is all or most, then this is a huge deal. Most people (my parents included) have no clue how to do a firmware update. Most BD players do not have an Ethernet port, so you would have to create your own disc, or request one from the manufacturer and wait.

So which is it? Which BD+ discs won't play? All, most, some, or a handful?

Let's work to get the truth out and not spin.


PS. I bricked a PC DVD drive when the power at my house flickered during an update.

Did we ever get a exact answer on this one? I have read a lot of speculation, but no real facts (except what the insider said about BD+).

This may go hand in hand with what the guy from Denon recently said. Now it appears that BD+ and profile 1.1 may both have issues. The question is how big? My other question is will all this be delayed until after the holidays so that it will not interfere with sales?

AACS requires firmware update too. What's the fuss?

AACS requires firmware update too. What's the fuss?

Someone buys a $1000 BD player.
They buy 3 movies.
None work becasue they have BD+
They call CE tech support.
They are told they can not watch new movies without an FW update.
Their player does not have an Ethernet port.
They do not know how to burn discs or do not have a burner.
They must now wait a week to receive the update.
They get the update.
The power goes out while the update is running.
They now have a big box that can hold paper down on their desk incase the wind blows too hard.

Someone buys a $1000 BD player.
They buy 3 movies.
None work becasue they have BD+
They call CE tech support.
They are told they can not watch new movies without an FW update.
Their player does not have an Ethernet port.
They do not know how to burn discs or do not have a burner.
They must now wait a week to receive the update.


They get the update.
The power goes out while the update is running.
They now have a big box that can hold paper down on their desk incase the wind blows too hard.

Power going out can happen during a HD DVD player update too and make it a brick as well.
Actually, the BD players take several minutes to burn FW whereas my HD-A20 took 30 minutes :rolleyes:

What the heck is it doing for 30 minutes .... ? .... :confused:

The HD player leaves a lot more time/room for an issue to occur during FW burn in.

Power going out can happen during a HD DVD player update too and make it a brick as well.
Actually, the BD players take several minutes to burn FW whereas my HD-A20 took 30 minutes :rolleyes:

What the heck is it doing for 30 minutes .... ? .... :confused:

The HD player leaves a lot more time/room for an issue to occur during FW burn in.

I have an A2. I have never done a FW update and and never had a problem playing movies. That is the way it should be.

I would hope that in both cases (Blu-Ray and HD DVD) that they have a dual back up bios setup rather than depending on 1 system. I have the 360 add-on so not a big problem for me, but having updated several different components Firmware and the Bios on motherboards regularly I have had failures. Motherboards with dual bios allow for the primary to be updated and if that fails the scondary automatically rewrites the old version onto the primary. For the kind of cash investment (especially Blu-Ray) I would expect at least some kind of redundancy.

Someone buys a $1000 BD player.
They buy 3 movies.
None work becasue they have BD+
They call CE tech support.
They are told they can not watch new movies without an FW update.
Their player does not have an Ethernet port.
They do not know how to burn discs or do not have a burner.
They must now wait a week to receive the update.
They get the update.
The power goes out while the update is running.
They now have a big box that can hold paper down on their desk incase the wind blows too hard.

Someone buys an $800 HD DVD player.
They buy 3 movies.
None work.
They call CE tech support.
They are told they can not watch new movies without an FW update.
Their player is plugged into the network.
Their player will not connect to download the update, no matter how hard they try.
They do not know how to burn discs or do not have a burner.
They must now wait a week to receive the update.
They get the update.
The update takes forever but finally applies.
They try 3 movies.
None work.
Someone on AVS tells them to boil the disks.
They return the HD DVD player.

I have an A2. I have never done a FW update and and never had a problem playing movies. That is the way it should be.

Don't plan on playing the 51G disks then? Word on the street is you'll need a firmware update. Is that the way it should be?

Someone buys an $800 HD DVD player.
They buy 3 movies.
None work.
They call CE tech support.
They are told they can not watch new movies without an FW update.
Their player is plugged into the network.
Their player will not connect to download the update, no matter how hard they try.
They do not know how to burn discs or do not have a burner.
They must now wait a week to receive the update.
They get the update.
The update takes forever but finally applies.
They try 3 movies.
None work.
Someone on AVS tells them to boil the disks.
They return the HD DVD player.

You forgot...

They return the HD DVD player and replace it with one that costs $250 and save $550!:)
All the discs then work with out a FW update!:)
They are told that only Blu-Ray will require FW updates to play discs for both BD+ and then another for BD 1.1 discs!:eek:
Because they learned how to connect to the Internet for FW updates, they now can use all the cool online interactivity!
They can also view current previews instead of old ones from a year ago.
The learn that with Blu-Ray you can not do that and with most players NEVER will because they do not have an Ethernet port!:eek:
They are happy that they only paid $250 for an HDM play that has tons more functionality than a Blu-Ray player that costs over $1000!:p
They then spend their $550 savings on more movies, a Wii, and some cool games, and still have money left over to throw a party for all their friends to come over and watch Transformers!

Now that's much more likely!

You forgot...

They return the HD DVD player and replace it with one that costs $250 and save $550!:)
All the discs then work with out a FW update!:)
They are told that only Blu-Ray will require FW updates to play discs for both BD+ and then another for BD 1.1 discs!:eek:
Because they learned how to connect to the Internet for FW updates, they now can use all the cool online interactivity!
They can also view current previews instead of old ones from a year ago.
The learn that with Blu-Ray you can not do that and with most players NEVER will because they do not have an Ethernet port!:eek:
They are happy that they only paid $250 for an HDM play that has tons more functionality than a Blu-Ray player that costs over $1000!:p
They then spend their $550 savings on more movies, a Wii, and some cool games, and still have money left over to throw a party for all their friends to come over and watch Transformers!

Now that's much more likely!

You forgot...

No HD DVD players MSRP for $250, so this must be in fantasy land where they buy it.
All the disks don't work without a firmware update, but this fits with the fantasy land player.
They are told that if they want to watch Disney, Fox, or Sony films that they'll need to import them at a premium. Eek!
They tried and tried again to get their HD DVD player on the internet, but it still won't go on because of router problems. No cool internet features are enjoyed even though they are oft-touted.
They invite friends over for Children of Men, but it won't play. They try returning it a few times, but it still won't work. Someone on a forum tells them they need a firmware update. Someone named Everdog proclaims he's never updated his firmware, which doesn't help them at all.
They return the new fantasy HD DVD player.
They look for the Wii, but it is still sold out and doesn't play HD media, so is useless for getting the most out of their HDTV.
They buy a Blu-ray player, saving $300 over the $800 MSRP of their XA2.
They plug it into the internet for firmware updates, and it works great.
They enjoy gaming on it, and also use it as a media center.
The firmware is updated easily and often, adding additional features that HD DVD players don't have.

Now thats more likely!

By the way I notice you didn't answer me. I know you love how you never update your firmware or have problems, so I'm guessing you won't be updating it for 51G or when the 1080p24 firmware comes out?

BD+? Is that carrot for Fox and Disney still being tossed around? Is this vaporware ever going to surface, or will it always be within the Blu-ray mantra..."wait for it"?

Blah blah blah

There is a difference between your story and mine. Mine is true, yours is pure fantasy.

I bought an HD DVD player for $199. I have NEVER applied FW updates. All my discs work including Children of Men, Planet Earth, and several combos like 300, Hot Fuzz and Happy Feet. I easily connect to the Internet and can use ALL the cool online features. PiP on 300 is cool too.

I took the money I saved an bought a Wii for my kids which they love and all the other kids in the neighborhood come over to play (no one has or wants a PS3, the 360 and Halo 3-yes, PS3-no).

I still have $ left over to buy Transformers and have a party. Its Oct. 19th and you are invited.

Also, I do not plan on doing any firmware updates unless I have to. TL51 may or may not require one.

Blah blah typical talking points blah blah

There is a difference between your story and mine. Mine is true, yours is pure fantasy.

Even if its true, you're one of the lucky few, not the average experience. The price you paid wasn't MSRP, and yet you quote Blu-ray MSRP as if it is the only price available. Talk about weakening your own argument. *Psst* your fanboy is showing.


TL51 may or may not require one.


Sweet. You stick with that then.

I've done 2 firmware updates on the Samsung BDP1000, via a cd-r
About 6 on the HD-A2 via ethernet.
About 8 on the PS3 via wireless ethernet.

The only proven and repeatable firmware upgrade was when people left a disk in their HD-A1 before starting the upgrade.

You forgot...

No HD DVD players MSRP for $250, so this must be in fantasy land where they buy it.


MSRP doesn't mean that's what I paid. I paid less than $200 from Amazon for my HD-A2 a few weeks ago...

MSRP doesn't mean that's what I paid. I paid less than $200 from Amazon for my HD-A2 a few weeks ago...

Good for you. However he was saying a Blu-ray player cost $1000, so I assumed we were talking in terms of MSRP. Comparing apples(MSRP) to oranges(sale price) gets you nowhere. If he had said a Blu-ray player for $450 or such then I would see he was talking about sale prices and would have responded accordingly.

...However he was saying a Blu-ray player cost $1000, so I assumed we were talking in terms of MSRP...

Sony sells the BDP-S2000ES for MSRP $1299. My bet is even on sale it is more than $1000. Sure its one of the more expensive one, but you picked the XA2 (MSRP $800, but $499 at Best Buy), so call it even.

If you are going to argue that BR HW costs the same as HD DVD you are going to lose.

Sony sells the BDP-S2000ES for MSRP $1299. My bet is even on sale it is more than $1000. Sure its one of the more expensive one, but you picked the XA2 (MSRP $800, but $499 at Best Buy), so call it even.


Thats why I picked it. There were plenty of other players for you to pick, but you picked a high priced one despite its volume obviously being much lower, so I did the same. Apples to apples.


If you are going to argue that BR HW costs the same as HD DVD you are going to lose.
I don't recall trying to argue that at any point, but if you want to make up an argument in your head about it and "beat me" go ahead. :rolleyes:

Thats why I picked it. There were plenty of other players for you to pick, but you picked a high priced one despite its volume obviously being much lower, so I did the same. Apples to apples.


Good thing the Denon player is not out yet. I would have picked that one. Its going to be about $2000.:D

Good thing the Denon player is not out yet. I would have picked that one. Its going to be about $2000.:D

I'm actually sad it isn't. I love Denon stuff. Also, saying $2000 for a Blu-ray player would have just made your arguments even less in touch with the average consumer, and therefore less believable :D

IMHO, firmware updates will have to be a thing of the past when either or both formats have mass acceptance. For many electronics items, firmware updates do minor tweaks and enhance some functions. If you don't upgrade, the basic functionality of the unit is not compromised. Average consumers will never upgrade their equipment at all, be it PC motherboard or DVD player or AV receiver. They just continue using the firmware that the product came with and they remain blissfully ignorant of the advantages of upgrading.

On the other hand, any firmware upgrades that are absolutely necessary to continue using the unit will confuse and enrage consumers. Most people will not know how to cope. They will take the item back to the store they bought it from, perhaps may even try to call factory customer service about that item, whereupon they will be told lots of things they don't understand after they have waited on the line for forty-five minutes.

Firmware upgrades are for early adopters only. Any mass-produced electronics items have to function without these upgrades. Firmware upgrades should be for the well-informed who want to have minor improvements that enhance the functionality of their product. Both HD DVD and BD manufacturers have got to realize that this is so.

Firmware upgrades fail a very small percentage of the time. Sometimes it is due to human error, sometimes not. A little dirt or scratch or smudge on the disk, a short power interruption, an internal data transfer error (who knows why these happen) -- any of these can mess things up. The average consumer will not cope very well with this. Toshiba graciously fixed for free quite a few bricked machines under warranty. They did this even in cases where the user left a disk in the drive before updating online.

On the HD DVD side, who knows what kind of customer service the Chinese manufacturers will provide. Toshiba customer service has been very good. People who buy BD should assure themselves that they are buying from a manufacturer that has prompt and reliable customer service and that provides timely upgrades (not months after denying and then realizing there is a problem).

I think that what Sony does -- sending upgrade discs to registered owners -- is a good thing, if it is done in a timely manner. People will not want to wait until the player fails to read a disc before they have to contact a manufacturer. No average consumer likes making customer service calls for any electronics problems, whether hardware or software. It can be time-consuming and frustrating, especially if one has to make several calls to get the right answers.

I know people with HD DVD players who have never upgraded and have been fortunate to have all the discs they choose play quite nicely in their players. These people, even when they have the update disc in hand, are absolutely terrified at the prospect of having to upgrade. "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" is their motto.

BD+ adds a new dimension to this issue, since the upgrade is for copy protection that will benefit primarily the studio and not the user. Fortunately for the BDA, most users will not know what the upgrade is for. They will just know that it is necessary to play some of the discs they buy. I am sure that the update for BD+ will be bundled with other firmware upgrades "that are designed to enhance the customer's enjoyment of the product" -- or something like that.

BD+ adds a new dimension to this issue, since the upgrade is for copy protection that will benefit primarily the studio and not the user. Fortunately for the BDA, most users will not know what the upgrade is for. They will just know that it is necessary to play some of the discs they buy. I am sure that the update for BD+ will be bundled with other firmware upgrades "that are designed to enhance the customer's enjoyment of the product" -- or something like that.

Good points in general except for this one. HD DVD has firmware upgrades/software updates for copy protection already, so it isn't like this is something isolated to Blu-ray or BD+. AACS has been patched at least two times IIRC.

Good points in general except for this one. HD DVD has firmware upgrades/software updates for copy protection already, so it isn't like this is something isolated to Blu-ray or BD+. AACS has been patched at least two times IIRC.

But if a player functions without these upgrades? Not getting these AACS patches for HD DVD does not disable the functionality of the player. Maybe some HD DVD insider can comment on the nature of these AACS upgrades and whether they are absolutely necessary. My point is that the BD+ upgrade seems to constitute a different sort of copy protection upgrade.

In any case, my main point was that all of these players will have to come off the line ready to go and with future updates only optional and not mandatory, especially if they are headed for Wal-Mart shelves.

If someone cracks the player type you own, be it HD DVD or Blu-ray you will be required to download an AACS firmware update. This has already happened for owners of WinDVD.

If someone cracks the player type you own, be it HD DVD or Blu-ray you will be required to download an AACS firmware update. This has already happened for owners of WinDVD.

I think this is more likely in the case of software movie players, such as WinDVD and PowerDVD. Computers with HD DVD and BD drives and software movie players are very vulnerable to hacking and cracking. It is easier to intercept the code in these instances.

But do you have any knowledge of HD DVD players, such as the A1, being required to upgrade AACS in order to play movies? It seems that lots of people are getting good results even with older versions of the firmware and the culprit in many cases is a certain percentage of NEC drive problems. Those defects can be resolved in some cases with a firmware upgrade, but the results and the need to upgrade are somewhat inconsistent among players.

Do you have specific information about any HD DVD movie that will not play on an A1 without an AACS upgrade? I am not talking about discs that have other issues of error correction that require an upgrade.

FYI, the OP of the thread was correct.

FYI, the OP of the thread was correct.
Clearly, and since this has been know for weeks, actually longer but announced weeks ago, These issues should not have happened.
J

Clearly, and since this has been know for weeks, actually longer but announced weeks ago, These issues should not have happened.
J

+1

If it is true, as the Samsung owners are saying, that there currently is no firmware update to fix this, then is a huge blunder. We knew about it weeks ago.

Fact is that the cataclysmic scenarios coming out of the mouths of a lot of folk around here that BD+ just simply wouldn't play, or would brick systems, or some other such equally disastrous results, have not come to pass. And now that it's here, we see that in fact the vast majority of players handle it no problem.

To me, saying that the Samsung players require an update is no more of a flag-raising event than all the various updates HD DVD players have required associated with combo playback issues. Does anyone here think that these Samsungs will never be able to play these discs. No, I don't think many rational folk would say that a firmware update is not imminent. It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped the ball on this, but firmware updates are par for the course so far in this war on both sides of the fence.

To me, the launch of BD+ gets a definite "pass" in a pass/fail scheme. We see that given proper firmware, it will play in players.

We believe you...........NOT!

What a load of FUD.
Which players currently have been turned into bricks by firmware updates?

sorry dude,

it is a "computer" and with ANY firmware update. There is a possibility of it failing. More so if power gets interrupted.

See the warning on you projector, computer bios, cell phone on failed firmware and thier resolution (usually ship it out to manufacture).

But do you have any knowledge of HD DVD players, such as the A1, being required to upgrade AACS in order to play movies? It seems that lots of people are getting good results even with older versions of the firmware and the culprit in many cases is a certain percentage of NEC drive problems. Those defects can be resolved in some cases with a firmware upgrade, but the results and the need to upgrade are somewhat inconsistent among players.

Do you have specific information about any HD DVD movie that will not play on an A1 without an AACS upgrade? I am not talking about discs that have other issues of error correction that require an upgrade.


well

from a technical standpoint you would not know as the AACS is on the HDDVD along with the CRL. Both get updated as soon as the HDDVD starts playing.

... Does anyone here think that these Samsungs will never be able to play these discs...

Yes, without a FW update they NEVER will. You can exhange discs all you want. You can buy other BD+ discs too. They will NEVER be able to play a BD+ disc.

Correct? Yes ot No.

Fact is that the cataclysmic scenarios coming out of the mouths of a lot of folk around here that BD+ just simply wouldn't play, or would brick systems, or some other such equally disastrous results, have not come to pass. And now that it's here, we see that in fact the vast majority of players handle it no problem.

To me, saying that the Samsung players require an update is no more of a flag-raising event than all the various updates HD DVD players have required associated with combo playback issues. Does anyone here think that these Samsungs will never be able to play these discs. No, I don't think many rational folk would say that a firmware update is not imminent. It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped the ball on this, but firmware updates are par for the course so far in this war on both sides of the fence.

To me, the launch of BD+ gets a definite "pass" in a pass/fail scheme. We see that given proper firmware, it will play in players.

I don't consider an exceptionally long loading time "no problem." Right now I consider it a minor problem and annoyance and also something to make me more cautious when buying Blu-ray discs, because you cannot be sure that future discs will not have similar problems. I consider the HD DVD combo discs the same way. Also I would not give it a definite "pass," IMO judgement should be withheld until the Samsung problems and long loading times are resolved. For all we know it could be a problem on Fox's end regarding the long loading times and discs not playing in LG and Samsung units.

Fact is that the cataclysmic scenarios coming out of the mouths of a lot of folk around her that BD+ just simply wouldn't play, or would brick systems, or some other such equally disastrous results, have not come to pass. And now that it's here, we see that in fact the vast majority of players handle it no problem.

To me, saying that the Samsung players require an update is no more of a flag-raising event than all the various updates HD DVD players have required associated with combo playback issues. Does anyone here think that these Samsungs will never be able to play these discs. No, I don't think many rational folk would say that a firmware update is not imminent. It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped the ball on this, but firmware updates are par for the course so far in this war on both sides of the fence.

To me, the launch of BD+ gets a definite "pass" in a pass/fail scheme. We see that given proper firmware, it will play in players.

They might get it working properly eventually.
However for BD+ being in the spec and players from the day launched its'very poor show. This should have been the one thing in the spec that should have been working on all player from day one. It's a f'ing security layer that is supposed to operating transperant for the end users.

This shambles only indicate that it was not properly tested as it should have been.

Europe sales numbers of ce br and hd dvd players show that Samsung sold 60..70 % of the SA players for br. (Up to july) Being the cheapest model I have no doubt it continued outdoing the other sa br players after july as well.
That is a lot of problems...

You can keep harping on about combo's but out of the 30 I have I had only 1 that needed a firmware fix.
And that is about fixing the minute tolerance issues from combo production. Fixing fw issues in players to get BD+ working at all in player models is far more serious matter.

They might get it working properly eventually.
However for BD+ being in the spec and players from the day launched its'very poor show. This should have been the one thing in the spec that should have been working on all player from day one. It's a f'ing security layer that is supposed to operating transperant for the end users.

This shambles only indicate that it was not properly tested as it should have been.

Europe sales numbers of ce br and hd dvd players show that Samsung sold 60..70 % of the SA players for br. (Up to july) Being the cheapest model I have no doubt it continued outdoing the other sa br players after july as well.
That is a lot of problems...

You can keep harping on about combo's but out of the 30 I have I had only 1 that needed a firmware fix.
And that is about fixing the minute tolerance issues from combo production. Fixing fw issues in players to get BD+ working at all in player models is far more serious matter.

A more serious matter? Well you'll be glad to know since it's software-based, it's a more simple matter as well. As for all 5,000 Samsung BD players sold into Europe... I think you vastly overstate the effects. The PS3 *is* the BD player in Europe, even moreso than here in the US. Personally I'll take a software snag over physical variations any day of the week.

But the bottom line is, this BD+ issue - besides affecting a minority to begin with - is something that will be imminently resolved. Could've, would've, should've... that's all well and good; yes I agree Samsung should have been on point. And yes Everdog I agree it requires firmware to play (just like the 360 add-on in several cases), and yes JTYoung it might be slow on some players (a symptom of their processing speed)... but this is frankly a pretty good "launch" for the scheme.

Some of the same people that feel the deep-rooted need to highlight the Samsung issues here are the same people that predicted far worse earlier on. As it stands, frankly IMO this situation is minor, and more importantly, shows that the scheme itself is not adversarial in nature to the existing hardware; ie it's not destroying anything or exhibiting signs of playback failures beyond non-firmware'd players.

A more serious matter? Well you'll be glad to know since it's software-based, it's a more simple matter as well. As for all 5,000 Samsung BD players sold into Europe... I think you vastly overstate the effects. The PS3 *is* the BD player in Europe, even moreso than here in the US. Personally I'll take a software snag over physical variations any day of the week.

But the bottom line is, this BD+ issue - besides affecting a minority to begin with - is something that will be imminently resolved. Could've, would've, should've... that's all well and good; yes I agree Samsung should have been on point. And yes Everdog I agree it requires firmware to play (just like the 360 add-on in several cases), and yes JTYoung it might be slow on some players (a symptom of their processing speed)... but this is frankly a pretty good "launch" for the scheme.

Some of the same people that feel the deep-rooted need to highlight the Samsung issues here are the same people that predicted far worse earlier on. As it stands, frankly IMO this situation is minor, and more importantly, shows that the scheme itself is not adversarial in nature to the existing hardware; ie it's not destroying anything or exhibiting signs of playback failures beyond non-firmware'd players.

My concern is the fact that the scheme requires a firmware upgrade. How many times a year are we going to require a firmware upgrade for new movies. In other words, how many times are we going to play Russian Roulette with our players. Firmware updates causing problems are rare, until you have to start doing them consistently. This is why most manufacturers say that you should only load updates if you are experiencing the problems noted in the help files, not just because there's a new update.

but this is frankly a pretty good "launch" for the scheme.


If the "scheme" is to turn Blu-ray into the PS3 only format, then yes it was a good launch.
Can't wait until 1.1 discs arrive. :rolleyes:
J

Can HD-DVD players be turned into molten metal and plastic when owners do firmware updates on them?

I suppose, but I think the bigger problem would be getting the phone company to run a dsl line into an active volcano. :D

My concern is the fact that the scheme requires a firmware upgrade. How many times a year are we going to require a firmware upgrade for new movies. In other words, how many times are we going to play Russian Roulette with our players. Firmware updates causing problems are rare, until you have to start doing them consistently. This is why most manufacturers say that you should only load updates if you are experiencing the problems noted in the help files, not just because there's a new update.

BD+ is self-contained, so honestly as far as it goes, it should only require the one firmware update for the ability to run the framework itself; the actual system is standalone and contained on disc. And clearly the majority of players already have this capability resident.

I'm not saying I don't see where you're coming from in terms of your firmware update concerns, but in terms of BD+ it should be a one time thing.

If the "scheme" is to turn Blu-ray into the PS3 only format, then yes it was a good launch.
Can't wait until 1.1 discs arrive. :rolleyes:
J

Big J I really hope you're saying this tongue-in-cheek. What in the world does a firmware update required by certain Samsungs have to do with it becoming PS3 only?

FW updates will come and this will become even less of an issue than it is. And HDM will keep chugging along as always.

Most players get FW updates. Has anyone on this board ever had any HDM player bricked by a FW update on either side? (honest question)

I have read numerous FW update threads on both sides, I have yet to see 1.

Anyone?

actually, I know one case. a friend of mine ordered an XE1 from amazon.de and first thing when he got it was to update with the latest firmware. in middle of the update process, the XE1 frooze and did not work again. my friend tried everything. nothing helped - so amazon.de replaced it with a new XE1

BD+ is self-contained, so honestly as far as it goes, it should only require the one firmware update for the ability to run the framework itself; the actual system is standalone and contained on disc. And clearly the majority of players already have this capability resident.

I'm not saying I don't see where you're coming from in terms of your firmware update concerns, but in terms of BD+ it should be a one time thing.



Big J I really hope you're saying this tongue-in-cheek. What in the world does a firmware update required by certain Samsungs have to do with it becoming PS3 only?


If its a one time thing it will be cracked in a matter of weeks, if the BDA truly wants BD+ to work it will have to change often to keep hackers on their toes. Even AACS changes it up from time to time, but it doesn't seem to help much.

PS3 could have had the same issues addressed in its recent update, who knows for sure? I see paidgeek said it was a java problem, that only makes it worse since ALL BR players should not have an issue with that at this point in the game. Oh well, the wait for a solid, complete standalone BR player continues.... The BDA won't see a dime from me until they get the profile and compatibility mess worked out.

If its a one time thing it will be cracked in a matter of weeks, if the BDA truly wants BD+ to work it will have to change often to keep hackers on their toes. Even AACS changes it up from time to time, but it doesn't seem to help much.

You're not understanding; the BD+ encryption scheme isn't dependent on changing your firmware, just being able to run on it. Once that's established, the scheme can be changed as often as the studios like without requiring subsequent updates in the firmware.

PS3 could have had the same issues addressed in its recent update, who knows for sure? I see paidgeek said it was a java problem, that only makes it worse since ALL BR players should not have an issue with that at this point in the game. Oh well, the wait for a solid, complete standalone BR player continues.... The BDA won't see a dime from me until they get the profile and compatibility mess worked out.

Of course it's a Java-related issue; all these things run on Java. The firmware update to support BD+ would really in its technical sense be an update to the Java framework to allow support of BD+. BD+, Java... for these purposes, we're discussing the same thing.

BD+ is self-contained, so honestly as far as it goes, it should only require the one firmware update for the ability to run the framework itself; the actual system is standalone and contained on disc. And clearly the majority of players already have this capability resident.

I'm not saying I don't see where you're coming from in terms of your firmware update concerns, but in terms of BD+ it should be a one time thing.

...

Self contained? A protection scheme that relies on firmware imprints that should match up with imprints contained on released discs to aid in detecting if players are tampered with.
This is from now on supposed to work with all the different player models with all their different firmware upgrades installed in various combinations?
Old BD+ releases supposed to be still playable on new players with unknown firmware imprints?


It's delusional to think that hairbrain scheme is going to be fixed by a couple of firmware upgrades.

This is going to be firmware upgades forever.

And now this. kjack only just confirmed that java performance on early gen soc as used in teh Samsung had abysmal performance ('stunk' :D )
BD+ is supposed to descramble 1080p content and add an invisible watermark on the fly. Don't be surprised if that isn't going to work properly on early generation player models that have performance problems with a very simple java app in the vm.


What is so serious about this is that bda chose to throw this technology out without proper testing before the format was launched.

It's like selling cars with untried and tested abs brake technology and attempting to get it working months after the cars introduction with fixes during the regular service.

You're not understanding; the BD+ encryption scheme isn't dependent on changing your firmware, just being able to run on it. Once that's established, the scheme can be changed as often as the studios like without requiring subsequent updates in the firmware.

It is much more likely a way will be found to bypass BD+ than it is being cracked.
Once that happens, its game over for BD+.

FYI, the OP of the thread was correct.

Not really.

I have some recent information that the playability problems with TDAT and F4 are not related to BD+, but instead have to do with the Java support on the players in question. The firmware updates should resolve it.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=25...&postcount=3942 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=254083&postcount=3942)

Self contained? A protection scheme that relies on firmware imprints that should match up with imprints contained on released discs to aid in detecting if players are tampered with.
This is from now on supposed to work with all the different player models with all their different firmware upgrades installed in various combinations?
Old BD+ releases supposed to be still playable on new players with unknown firmware imprints?

It's delusional to think that hairbrain scheme is going to be fixed by a couple of firmware upgrades.

This is going to be firmware upgades forever.

In its ideal form these updates would not be required. Whether it'll end up following that path or one of ineptitude, I don't know - but so long as we agree on the facts. Older discs should be able to play on newer players though, yes.

And now this. kjack only just confirmed that java performance on early gen soc as used in teh Samsung had abysmal performance ('stunk' :D )

Who with half a brain didn't already know that though?

BD+ is supposed to descramble 1080p content and add an invisible watermark on the fly. Don't be surprised if that isn't going to work properly on early generation player models that have performance problems with a very simple java app in the vm.

Well, the only ones it's not working on so far are the Samsung and the LG. Even for these two, it should only be am eventual matter of speed, rather than ability.

What is so serious about this is that bda chose to throw this technology out without proper testing before the format was launched.

It's like selling cars with untried and tested abs brake technology and attempting to get it working months after the cars introduction with fixes during the regular service.

That analogy is... well, it's an analogy. But I don't agree with it. ;) We've always known that the launch of BD+ and the profile updates would be periods of flux for BD. I can do nothing other than restate my honest opinion that so far I believe it's going very smoothly relative to the range of scenarios previously outlined.

...



That analogy is... well, it's an analogy. But I don't agree with it. ;) We've always known that the launch of BD+ and the profile updates would be periods of flux for BD. I can do nothing other than restate my honest opinion that so far I believe it's going very smoothly relative to the range of scenarios previously outlined.

Well, the analogy isn't holding op with the life threatening part that is not an issue with br. :)

Smoothly? I don't now yet. The issues recently reported might have more to do with other BD-J issues.
If the vm performance on early gen players isn't going to cope with BD+ then it will be a big stunk.

I mentioned this question in another thread.... How can BD-J cause stuttering during playback? I thought that it was simply the menu system, and other interactive content.

If BD-J is causing issues with the movie during playback (stuttering), does this mean that there is indeed the possibility that BD-J 1.1 discs can cause playback issues during the movie with 1.0 BD-J machines?


I can see how BD+ could cause stuttering issues, but I don't see how BD-J could be causing these issues. And if it is BD-J causing the stuttering issue, then I would like to see details of what is happening during movie playback that would cause this.

I mentioned this question in another thread.... How can BD-J cause stuttering during playback? I thought that it was simply the menu system, and other interactive content.

If BD-J is causing issues with the movie during playback (stuttering), does this mean that there is indeed the possibility that BD-J 1.1 discs can cause playback issues during the movie with 1.0 BD-J machines?


I can see how BD+ could cause stuttering issues, but I don't see how BD-J could be causing these issues. And if it is BD-J causing the stuttering issue, then I would like to see details of what is happening during movie playback that would cause this.

Polling buttons for user input commands on the players, polling the infrared port for input commands. Keeping the players display up to date.
Lot's of things going on under the hood to keep the player going.

Not really.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=25...&postcount=3942 (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=254083&postcount=3942)

No, really.

I doubt it is an amazing coincidence.

So wasn't this Panasonic testing facility (another big news anouncement from a bda member) suposed to be doing extensive compatibility testing?

What are they doing?

No, really.

I doubt it is an amazing coincidence.

"The first BD+ is Day After Tomorrow, this was confirmed by looking at the Disc Structure (There's a BD+ drawers on the disc), this disc don't work on the LG and BDP 1200, but work on the Panasonic (Long load time) and PS3

New keys are being used on new fantastic 4 movie, but not BD+ was used on that titles.."
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=249529&postcount=3850

So if Day After Tomorrow didn't work because of BD+, what's wrong with Silver surfer?

[I]"The first BD+ is Day After Tomorrow, this was confirmed by looking at the Disc Structure (There's a BD+ drawers on the disc), this disc don't work on the LG and BDP 1200, but work on the Panasonic (Long load time) and PS3...


Thanks for confirming that DAT is a BD+ issue.

Thanks for confirming that DAT is a BD+ issue.

If FF4 and DAT are both having problems, but only DAT has BD+, it seems more likely that the problem is unrelated to BD+.

Thanks for confirming that DAT is a BD+ issue.

Huh?

If FF4 and DAT are both having problems, but only DAT has BD+, it seems more likely that the problem is unrelated to BD+.

But doesn't BD+ inherently rely on BD-J? Could this problem not be a BD+ or BD-J problem alone but rather an issue regarding the interaction between the two?

But doesn't BD+ inherently rely on BD-J? Could this problem not be a BD+ or BD-J problem alone but rather an issue regarding the interaction between the two?

The different BD encryption systems and how they interact:

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf

But doesn't BD+ inherently rely on BD-J? Could this problem not be a BD+ or BD-J problem alone but rather an issue regarding the interaction between the two?Completely different VMs. BD-J does nothing about DRM and is not related to DRM at all.

Huh?

You posted "The first BD+ is Day After Tomorrow, this was confirmed by looking at the Disc Structure (There's a BD+ drawers on the disc), this disc don't work on the LG and BDP 1200, but work on the Panasonic (Long load time) and PS3".

Your post not mine.
I think that sums it up.

I'm not sure if it had anything to do with BD+ but I have playback issues with FF2 on my 40GB PS3. It froze a few times and completely stopped playing at one point (blank screen).

I'm not sure if it had anything to do with BD+ but I have playback issues with FF2 on my 40GB PS3. It froze a few times and completely stopped playing at one point (blank screen).

Are you at the latest firmware (1.9x or something).

Yes, I'm running 1.93.

I don't think we can rely on Paidgeek's statement that much. I've seen posts online claiming both FF and DAT indeed do have BD+.

As a matter of fact, why would Fox not use BD+ on one of its most important releases this quarter ? Really doesn't make any sense, does it ?

I'm not sure if it had anything to do with BD+ but I have playback issues with FF2 on my 40GB PS3. It froze a few times and completely stopped playing at one point (blank screen).

I haven't heard of any problems like that, so I would recommend you try replacing the disk with a new one.

That said, I don't think a lot of the people reporting flawless playback had the 40gb PS3, so that could certainly be a factor.

It was only a rental so I'm not that bothered, the disc looked mint though no marks or anything. All other discs have played perfectly.

It was confirmed to me in the Insiders thread that BD+ will require firmware update at least on some players.

I've done hundreds, if not thousands of the firmware updates on many different CEs and PCs.

Let me tell you something, my success rate is not 100%. And this is not because I don't know how to do it.

BD folks, be careful. You can turn your player into a brick fairly easily.

Doesn't this topic belong in the BD Players forum?

Well, the analogy isn't holding op with the life threatening part that is not an issue with br. :)

Smoothly? I don't now yet. The issues recently reported might have more to do with other BD-J issues.
If the vm performance on early gen players isn't going to cope with BD+ then it will be a big stunk.
first bd+ discs have been received by mfgrs since summer 2006. final bd+ spec received early 2006. so no surprise for performance.

I don't think we can rely on Paidgeek's statement that much. I've seen posts online claiming both FF and DAT indeed do have BD+.

As a matter of fact, why would Fox not use BD+ on one of its most important releases this quarter ? Really doesn't make any sense, does it ?
both have bd+. see bdsvm folder on disc.