Vizio Who? Once Unknown Company Becomes Leading LCD-TV Brand in North America
by Jonathan Cassell - Editorial Director and Manager, Public Relations

If you’ve ever entered a Wal-Mart or Costco and been tempted to buy one of the ultra-inexpensive Vizio LCD-TVs on prominent display, you’re not alone; U.S. consumers in the second quarter gave into this temptation in a big way, helping to make Vizio the leading LCD-TV brand in North America.

Vizio in the second quarter shipped 606,402 LCD-TVs in North America, up a stunning 76.4 percent increase from 343,704 in the first quarter, according to iSuppli Corp. This caused Vizio's North American unit market share to rise to 14.5 percent, up from 9.4 percent in the first quarter.

The sales surge also caused Vizio to rise four positions in the North American rankings, going from the fifth-placed brand in the first quarter to No. 1 in the second quarter—passing by Samsung, Philips, Sharp and Sony on the way.

How did Vizio, a brand that was virtually unknown a year ago, manage to eclipse such well-established names? The answer is a combination of low-priced products and high-powered sales channels, iSuppli believes.

“Vizio’s success is mainly due to the company expanding its retail presence to Wal-Mart and Sears at the beginning of the second quarter,” said Riddhi Patel, principal analyst, television systems for iSuppli. “The company already was selling its LCD TVs through the warehouse stores Costco, Sam’s Club and BJ's Wholesale Club—but the addition of the two new retailers gave Vizio’s sales a significant lift.”

Vizio also is benefiting from U.S. consumers’ increased awareness and comfort with LCD-TVs. In the past, because of the newness of the product, U.S. consumers gravitated toward premium, established brands and specialty electronics retailers. Vizio’s success selling inexpensive LCD-TV sets through mass-market retailers reflects a major shift in consumer attitudes.

“Americans have grown comfortable with value brands, making Vizio’s low-cost sets an alluring alternative to the established names,” Patel said.


Riding the LCD wave
Vizio’s market-share advance came during a period of healthy growth for the North American LCD-TV market. LCD-TV shipments in the region increased to 4.2 million units in the second quarter, up 14.9 percent from 3.7 million units in the first.

The company led in shipments of 32-inch sized LCD-TVs, which is within the most popular size range for such sets in North America in 2007. Vizio also had the most shipments of 37- , 42- and 47-inch LCD TVs.

Patel predicted that Vizio likely would maintain its leadership for at least the next two quarters based on its successful pricing and sales strategies.


Sony’s slide; Sharp strikes back
On top of Vizio’s rise, the North American market experienced a market-share shakeup among the established premium brands in the second quarter.

Sony slid to sixth place, down three positions from third in the first quarter. The company’s shipments declined to 263,377 units in the second quarter, down 36.1 percent from 412,323 in the first quarter.

Meanwhile, Sharp gained one position in the North American rankings, rising to third place on a 9.7 percent increase in unit shipments. This marks the first time Sharp has risen in the rankings since it ceded leadership of the North American market in the third quarter of 2006.

Sharp’s rise was due to increased availability of panels from its new eighth-generation fab, according to Patel.

http://www.isuppli.com/marketwatch/default.asp?id=409

Hopefully this debunks the idea that price is not king. Vizio is now the #1 LCD seller in NA. They went from 6th to 1st in one qtr. Sales growth of 76% from last qtr. Veteran Sony on the other hand (and highest priced) saw sales declined 36% over last quarter. Price and channel strength.

People buying a $799 - $1299 LCD monitor are more likely to pickup a $199 HD DVD player than a $499 BD player. When the DVD player (HD or not) you are trying to sell is half the price of TV J6P just bought it is going to turn off a lot of consumers.

Now before we start with the Vizio is crap argument, I am not planning on buying one but over half a million consumers did in one qtr. If they can sell 600K units in qtr 2 then they can sell a million to million and a half easy in Q4.

Imagine J6P going into Wallmart on black friday. They got the new Vizio 37" knocked down to $649 (and 42" for $899) hooked up to an HD-A3 playing Transformers. Not only that Wallmart (looking to move some HD discs next year) has a deal buy either TV and get the HD-A3 (normally $199) for $149. $798 out the door for a TV and HD player ($300 less than the Sony HDTV alone). For those who already got a 360 I think the addon will be $99 this winter.

Get the pricepoint to where J6P is interested and let Walmart do the rest. It worked for Vizio, and it will work for Toshiba also. This is what Paramount is talking about when they say HD DVD is the affordable choice.

Bought one this weekend. I don't consider myself J6P. Have a 9' diagonal HT with a 1080p Sony Ruby PJ for our main watching area. A Sharp 46" in the family room.

We have a 3 season porch with a D* HD receiver that had a 19" 4:3 CRT. Was inadequate. So, we wanted something decent to watch, but in a casual setting. Plus, with the porch subject to temp variations, we wanted to minimize the initial cost in case the thing dies out of (somewhat extended) warranty.

The Vizio seemed to fill the bill... Happy so far...

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

You do understand the enthusist market (even with their higher attach rates) maybe makes up 1% of DVD sales.

Every vizio/westinghouse HDTV is another potential HD media buyer.
Ever consumer buying an HD player makes the market bigger.
Consumers buying $20 DVD players didn't hurt me (I bought a $299 Sony and later an $200? Oppo).
Consumers buying $600 HDTV and $149 players won't hurt me either.

What you are simply do not understand is: If J6P doesn't buy into your hobby the movies will stop. Without J6P the market is simply not big enough to make economic sense. They will move on to HD downloads and eventually stop making 2 encodes (higher bitrate for optical, lower bitrate for downloads).

But I guess it is better to feel elite with a format doomed to become a niche (or worse) than accept compromises and let the peasants (with their superior buying power) join the party.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

Theres a difference between "rooting" and accepting the truth. J6P cares about price. That is all.

Judging from some reviews Vizio has really stepped up the quality on some of the new models. The may end up being a serious contender someday. I mean they already have all the big boys (Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, Panasonic, etc.) beat in LCD unit sales. In such a short time too. Good for them, they are making lcd affordable to the public and that is a very good thing for all supporters of HD.

I am not trying to say that price doesn't matter. But I'm not sure that the price-conscious consumer will be willing to purchase any HD player if he wont be able to watch half the movies being released. Would J6P have bought the cheaper LCD TV if he wouldn't be able to receive all the channels?

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.
Or maybe they are realists. A/V enthusiasts have their heads in the clouds if they think J6P will spend $500 on a video player.

http://www.isuppli.com/marketwatch/default.asp?id=409

Hopefully this debunks the idea that price is not king. Vizio is now the #1 LCD seller in NA. They went from 6th to 1st in one qtr. Sales growth of 76% from last qtr. Veteran Sony on the other hand (and highest priced) saw sales declined 36% over last quarter. Price and channel strength.

People buying a $799 - $1299 LCD monitor are more likely to pickup a $199 HD DVD player than a $499 BD player. When the DVD player (HD or not) you are trying to sell is half the price of TV J6P just bought it is going to turn off a lot of consumers.

Now before we start with the Vizio is crap argument, I am not planning on buying one but over half a million consumers did in one qtr. If they can sell 600K units in qtr 2 then they can sell a million to million and a half easy in Q4.

Imagine J6P going into Wallmart on black friday. They got the new Vizio 37" knocked down to $649 (and 42" for $899) hooked up to an HD-A3 playing Transformers. Not only that Wallmart (looking to move some HD discs next year) has a deal buy either TV and get the HD-A3 (normally $199) for $149. $798 out the door for a TV and HD player ($300 less than the Sony HDTV alone). For those who already got a 360 I think the addon will be $99 this winter.

Get the pricepoint to where J6P is interested and let Walmart do the rest. It worked for Vizio, and it will work for Toshiba also. This is what Paramount is talking about when they say HD DVD is the affordable choice.

Great post!:)

This what the blu fans shouting "But SPIDERMAN is coming...!" until they're blue in the face don't seem to get.:rolleyes:

I haven't seen many excellent reviews on the Vizio (like the bigger names). I am not sure how it stacks up agains the excellent Panny plasma and Pioneer / Pioneer Elite palsmas - which have many top rated models.

Just because it sells well / cheapest doesn't mean it is the right plasma for setting up a good HT.

At least if J6P buys the Vizio, they have more money left over for Blu Ray (and perhaps HD DVD). Which is great since Costco moves a lot of Vizios.

At least if J6P buys the Vizio, they have more money left over for Blu Ray (and perhaps HD DVD). Which is great since Costco moves a lot of Vizios.
Price difference for a 32" Vizio versus a 32" Sony was about $300 - just enough for an HD DVD and a couple of movies. ;)

That won't get you a BD player, or even 1/2 a PS3... :(

32" anything isn't even worth having a HD player. DVD looks very good on such a small set.....You gotta go 50" or bigger for HD to have some sort of increased optical effect. I can't imagine investing in HD DVD or BD for a 32" or 40" set.

Boy do I feel like a cheapskate. I own a Visio and HD DVD!

I wouldn't say price is King, I would say <b>value</b> is King. I felt that the Visio was just as good as the Sony or Panasonic that both cost hundreds more, and HD DVD is just as good as Blu-Ray that cost hundreds more. Sure people point to different specs that are supposedly superior, but in my personal comparisons I could not see ot tell a difference.

32" anything isn't even worth having a HD player. DVD looks very good on such a small set.....You gotta go 50" or bigger for HD to have some sort of increased optical effect. I can't imagine investing in HD DVD or BD for a 32" or 40" set.

32" is great for Blu-Ray or HD DVD! If you sit 2 feet away.

The OP is right-on. Wal-mart sees it, Toshiba, Vizio, Paramount. Just blind BD supporters don't. I'll stick to my guns, I've said it for 2 years. HD-DVD has the stronger marketing strategy. Lower price sells VOLUME!

Boy do I feel like a cheapskate. I own a Visio and HD DVD!

I wouldn't say price is King, I would say <b>value</b> is King. I felt that the Visio was just as good as the Sony or Panasonic that both cost hundreds more, and HD DVD is just as good as Blu-Ray that cost hundreds more. Sure people point to different specs that are supposedly superior, but in my personal comparisons I could not see ot tell a difference.

Don't feel like a cheapskate... You research, you buy, you're happy. I am very happy with my HD DVD player.

Being this is a HT enthusiast site, I try and take price out of the picture when selecting new equipment and then compare models based on performance and specs....Once I have found the top models, then I'll factor price back in and see if it pays to pay the premium:).

The moral of this post people will buy cheap TV's because EVERYONE has TV's.


People will not buy an HD player just because it is cheap. It has to represent a value. $200-$500 to pay to play half of the big movies coming out isn't a very intelligent way to spend money IMO.

I haven't seen many excellent reviews on the Vizio (like the bigger names). I am not sure how it stacks up agains the excellent Panny plasma and Pioneer / Pioneer Elite palsmas - which have many top rated models.

Oh Vizio is clearly inferior to every other top-tier brand out there (washed-out blacks, geometry issues, lousy built-in speaker, ugly front-grill design, etc.) but it's also not down in the gutter with the likes of Polaroid, Ilo, Maxent, Sylvania, Insignia or Element. It definitely appeals to J6P the same way a Westinghouse or Olevia HDTV looks adequate-enough when comparing the same-sized set to an expensive Sharp, Sony, Samsung or Panasonic/Pioneer set. I wouldn't buy one for myself (went with an Olevia 747i 1080p LCD w/built-in Realta HQV :)) but when it came time to buy my J6P sister and her boyfriend an LCD to replace their dying Panny CRT set the Vizio's bang-for-the-buck value emerged clearly. When I hooked it up for them at their place I thought the picture looked lousy and washed-out but my sister and her boyfriends' jaws dropped to the floor when they saw HD for the first time (an OTA broadcast of "Cold Case"). My bosses may join the HDTV world later this year and they say they'll ask for my expertise when they go shopping. They're J6P folks that have owned a 27" Sharp TV for over 13 years. You think a 47" or 52" Vizio coupled with a HTIAB and an HD-DVD player w/movies (well within the $1,500-2000 price range they set themselves up to) wouldn't impress these folks as much as a top-tier Sony or Panasonic set at considerably more expense?

Morale of the story: there's a market for those that want a $3K HDTV that has Realta HQV to scale HD/SD signals properly (me) and there's a market for budget-minded folks that just want to watch a decent-enough TV signal between work & sleep (my sis and her boy toy). Of course the latter market is much bigger and profitable than the former, and that's the beauty of Toshiba and HD-DVD's approach: they're cutting corners but not the core quality of the product (HD movies with solid audio specs and interactivity) to get down to J6P temptation territory ASAP. Sony and Blu-ray are getting there too but much later and at a much higher cost than what Toshiba and HD-DVD have spent (Paramount/Dreamworks deal notwithstanding). When it comes time for me to buy my sis and her boyfriend an HD player to go with their Vizio set, which of two formats will be priced low-enough for me to be able to afford? Hint: the boyfriend liked the "Transformers" movie a lot! :D

thebland is right, this is an HT site. The problem begins when HT nuts forget that what the masses will buy ultimately dictates the decisions companies will make. Early adopters are only good for testing the waters.

I agree price is king. Sony, Samsung, Sharp should stop creating any new technology, and let these 3rd party followers take the lead for a while and front the risk.

In fact they should just start producing low quality products in china, and just sell everything for low cost. Its obivous the market for quality is gone. Esspically in the U.S. its all about the lowest price, who cares if its good. Its cheap and gets me their.

So memo to sony,samsung and others. create things that are just 'good enough' and stop trying to make things that are good.

The problem is that price only goes so far as an enticement.

The average person has had to wade through the tv choices, now they are faced with the format choices. How low does the price have to be to overcome apathy and confusion?

The problem is that price only goes so far as an enticement.

The average person has had to wade through the tv choices, now they are faced with the format choices. How low does the price have to be to overcome apathy and confusion?

$199, $149 and $99 - that low. The A3 will be at these price points this Xmas season.

Price is the biggest factor and always will be for mass adoption. The more HDTVS in homes means more people have a greater motivation to enter into the HDM market. Different people have different levels of value. At the point when I deciding between getting a Westinghouse or a Samsung I had to decide if it was really worth an additional $400-500 for a slight picture improvement. It did not and I have been a happy owner for the last two years.

$199, $149 and $99 - that low. The A3 will be at these price points this Xmas season.

Too cheap = QC issues = even slower load times = more freeze ups = throw player through window = buy Blu Ray = Great picture and no QC issues.

$99 HD DVD players will be Blu Ray's Trojan Horse against HD DVD. THey can't even make the $600 player perfect...I can only imagine the way a $99 player will perform. $99 HD DVD players will be the revolt BD is counting on!!!:D This may be why most B+M stores have shunned HD DVD...Too many returns. $99 players may create a tsunami of returns (this post sounds like Lee Stewart in the Bizarro world).

Id say if walmart gets HD players on black friday. Some will sell not all but it will be a huge increce in HD sales.

More likely they will have a veture LCD TV and a 19.99 DVD player.. Which will sell just like last year.

I think they need to get the software prices down. After those buy the A3 on impulse they will see the disc prices and return it. $24-29 for a new HD-DVD or $16.99 for the DVD in sale. Sure some will keep the the player. But how many will buy the HD software. Many may just buy DVDs and use the upconverting thinking they are getting HD..

But only time will tell this holiday could be very important. If HD "wins" the holiday. Sales may even out and increse on HD. But if blu wins they will take a larger lead making it very difficult for HD-DVD.

Too cheap = QC issues = even slower load times = more freeze ups = throw player through window = buy Blu Ray = Great picture and no QC issues.

$99 HD DVD players will be Blu Ray's Trojan Horse against HD DVD. THey can't even make the $600 player perfect...I can only imagine the way a $99 player will perform. $99 HD DVD players will be the revolt BD is counting on!!!:D This may be why most B+M stores have shunned HD DVD...Too many returns. $99 players may create a tsunami of returns (this post sounds like Lee Stewart in the Bizarro world).

But Jeff . . the A3 is an improved A2 which was MSRP'd at $399.

So at $399 - no problems . . . but at $149 for the same player is no good?

Who the hell are you kidding?

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

I didn't realize that A/V enthusiasm and value, brands or otherwise, were mutually exclusive. A fool and his money, I suppose?

The problem is that price only goes so far as an enticement.

The average person has had to wade through the tv choices, now they are faced with the format choices. How low does the price have to be to overcome apathy and confusion?

As I stated in another thread, according to my non-A/V enthusiast friends, $199 player pricing and DVD-style discounted prices in B&M stores are what will bring them in, or a definitive format winner, whichever comes first. HD-DVD is closer to that price point on the hardware, but the non-A/V enthusiast is not going to deal well with a slow loading player or playback issues, regardless of platform.

The most important factor is giving the consumer something they want and see value in. Most of the people buying these cheap 32 and 37" TV's will not even be able to see the difference between HDM and DVD.

32" anything isn't even worth having a HD player. DVD looks very good on such a small set.....You gotta go 50" or bigger for HD to have some sort of increased optical effect. I can't imagine investing in HD DVD or BD for a 32" or 40" set.

What?!

It's not the picture size that matters, it's how far away you are from the screen. Can you see the Great Wall of China from the Moon?
Can't wait to switch my HP laptop for a Toshiba HD DVD laptop next year, and no, it's not going to be +32" in size. :D

As I stated in another thread, according to my non-A/V enthusiast friends, $199 player pricing and DVD-style discounted prices in B&M stores are what will bring them in, or a definitive format winner, whichever comes first. HD-DVD is closer to that price point on the hardware, but the non-A/V enthusiast is not going to deal well with a slow loading player or playback issues, regardless of platform.

Perhaps.

What happens when the non-A/V person buys a player and sees a disc they want from the other format?

Price alone cannot solve this issue, especially when the non-A/V person likely has one or more standard dvd players in their home already.

$199, $149 and $99 - that low. The A3 will be at these price points this Xmas season.

Just out of curiousity Lee, since Robert from Value Electronics posted that his $199 special last month cost him $12,000 on around 400 A2's because he was selling them below cost, that Walmart or any other B&M could sell a next generaton player priced the same or lower?

Also the reason consumers have no problem purchasing HDTV's right now, and not buying HD DVD or BD is that the TV they buy can play ALL THE HD CONTENT AVAILABLE. Do you think people would buy these TV's if the salesman told them that the Vizio can display HD from Direct Tv and cable but not OTA and Dish network, or that the Samsung can only display Satellite signals and no OTA or cable?

Perhaps.

What happens when the non-A/V person buys a player and sees a disc they want from the other format?

This is exactly why most people with HDTV's still aren't buying in. Everyone I work with (in my group at least) has at least 1 HDTV set, and most have 2-3. None of them have a single HDM player except me. They think I'm crazy for being an early adopter when there's the possibility that BD will lose, as they all believe that only one format will survive. None of them want to deal with the possibility of buying a player that doesn't have the movies they want to watch. The biggest issue I've found in talking with them is how misinformed they are about the whole thing, and I'm not talking about philosophical difference or differences in opinion; I'm talking about factually incorrect information.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

A/V enthusiasts should strive for more people to enjoy better quality audio and video. Making the hardware and software more affordable (pricing) is one way that happens.

ELITISM is hoping that very few people can enjoy quality audio and video, keeping prices high is one way that occurs.

A/V enthusiasts should not have to be ELITIST.

First, there is no evidence that BRD discs costs more to produce for the studios than HD DVD discs.

If the OP is correct and price is the only thing that matters in the purchase of HD players by the next generation of consumers then HDM sales for both camps are doomed! HDM costs more, a lot more. And, its the early adopting AV geeks that replace their media collection with the latest and greatest, not CE bargain bin hunters.

And since this seems to be one of the many attempts to justify a recent HD format decision made at Paramount, I will add.

Name one other circumstance where a business decision was made to dump an identical big selling item in favor of an identical small selling item because it was a more affordable choice for consumers? If you can't, don't blame yourself.

To use an analogy: Imagine a tire company that sells identical performance tires to Mercedes and Honda. Performance tires are a higher demand for the Mercedes dealership so they they sell twice as many tires to Mercedes as they do to Honda over an extended period of time with a continuing sales trend.

What do you think the stakeholders would say to the CEO of the Tire company if he told them that he was discontinuing sales to the big buyer, Mercedes, because Honda's are more affordable cars for consumers?
Because, apparently, thats exactly what Paramount suits were saying on Monday.

If you take away cost justification, and you take away sales justification, the only reasonable explanation left is that Paramount were talking about themselves. Perhaps because they suddenly found themselves with a large quantity of unexpected disposable cash with which to buy stuff. Hence it was more affordable for them.

PS, Can't blame me for having a little fun, I mean, there is so much good material here.

To use an analogy: Imagine a tire company that sells identical performance tires to Mercedes and Honda. Performance tires are a higher demand for the Mercedes dealership so they they sell twice as many tires to Mercedes as they do to Honda over an extended period of time with a continuing sales trend.

What do you think the stakeholders would say to the CEO of the Tire company if he told them that he was discontinuing sales to the big buyer, Mercedes, because Honda's are more affordable cars for consumers?
Because, apparently, thats exactly what Paramount suits were saying on Monday.
Unfortunately for this *ss-backwards logic the true fact would be that you would sell more tires to Honda because many more were purchased because they are more affordable (which is the real world truth). Even if you started with a relatively similar market (say 60:40 in favor of Merc) in the end you would sell many more to Honda in the long run due to the price - pretty much what Paramount said in the press release.

Theres a difference between "rooting" and accepting the truth. J6P cares about price. That is all.

Judging from some reviews Vizio has really stepped up the quality on some of the new models. The may end up being a serious contender someday. I mean they already have all the big boys (Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, Panasonic, etc.) beat in LCD unit sales. In such a short time too. Good for them, they are making lcd affordable to the public and that is a very good thing for all supporters of HD.


The problem is that you guys think 200 is going to be such a popular price, even though the market is clearly confused by the format war.

J6P's choice today is either to pay 200-500 for a HDM player that may be obsolete in a few years, vs spending 40 for a DVD player at Walmart. THAT is what J6P will choose... Price is king in the mass market so both HDDVD and BluRay are currently losing. (and probably will keep on doing so)

Since I now believe HDM formats are going to be niche formats, I'd focus my hope that for us enthusiasts they will make sure we get the best AQ and PQ + a decent selection of titles. I'll pay the premium in players and discs if this happens. (but I will be a small minority in the overall market)

Unfortunately for this *ss-backwards logic the true fact would be that you would sell more tires to Honda because many more were purchased because they are more affordable (which is the real world truth). Even if you started with a relatively similar market (say 60:40 in favor of Merc) in the end you would sell many more to Honda in the long run due to the price - pretty much what Paramount said in the press release.

Well, no , because you are projecting a sales trend that is contrary to the established reality. I choose performance tires here because they are niche market item, for a niche market. There was a higher demand for performance tires at Mercedes, because despite being more expensive, there were more performance cars sold by Mercedes than performance cars sold at Honda.

Get it ?

32" anything isn't even worth having a HD player. DVD looks very good on such a small set.....You gotta go 50" or bigger for HD to have some sort of increased optical effect. I can't imagine investing in HD DVD or BD for a 32" or 40" set.

I disagree. I have a 34" XBR CRT and while it will stun no one with size, the clarity and sharpness of the images made the purchase of my PS3 worth while. And it has the added bonus of not shaming SD content to the point you groan at it.

Anyway HD TVs have only recently become a commodity that J6P can afford (or budget constrained junior videophiles like myself). I think that userbase will be content with HD cable for more than a year, probably two, hence. The reason I got the PS3 is that is both satisfied my desired for gaming and my desire for HD movies. Call me biased, and I am, but the PS3 is currently the only bridge between J6P and niche HD player market right now. 32" to 40" inch TV sets are likewise a bridge, only the HD TV market has had longer to develop.

Just out of curiousity Lee, since Robert from Value Electronics posted that his $199 special last month cost him $12,000 on around 400 A2's because he was selling them below cost, that Walmart or any other B&M could sell a next generaton player priced the same or lower?

Not to step on a respomse from Lee, but in the case of big B&M retailers (or at least WalMart -#2 CE retailer in the country:eek:), the wholesale price points can and surely will be strongarmed into getting down to an "acceptible" level. WalMart does this all the time. "You sell us your product X at OUR desired cost, or we do not carry your product, thereby eliminating your access to a substantial share of the US consumer market".

Not saying this is good for the manufacturer or, in this case, HDM market adoption....but it is surely how Wallyworld will handle the situation if they jump into this with both feet come XMAS.

Most folks here on the AVS Forums don't buy CE from WalMart. But a vast number of others in the country do. And the manufacturers know this. MAP pricing on CE will keep WalMart from undercutting the competition by substantial $ amounts, but they will find a way-likely thru buying more units than anyone else-to shave off a few bucks. In the retail world, what WalMart wants, WalMart gets.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.


Yes, lord knows everyone has money tree's and HATES a good value product. I don't care how well it works as long as it's the most expensive unit EVER!


There is that old saying, a fool and his money are soon departed.

even though the market is clearly confused by the format war.
I wish people would quit using that excuse for the current state of HDM - it's more likely that the market doesn't care enough to even be confused.

if price is king, why has blu ray been winning by a 2:1 margin in disks all year??? why do Honda/Toyotas sell more than Hyundai/Kia???

Comparing Vizio TV sales to blu ray/HD Players is asininie...with the TV, you are don't worry about studio support and what channels you can watch...pretty much every TV can play the same cable/satellite/OTA channels which is not the case with blu ray/HD DVD...

this is is just another sad HD DVD fan boy thread...

if price is king, why has blu ray been winning by a 2:1 margin in disks all year??? why do Honda/Toyotas sell more than Hyundai/Kia???

Comparing Vizio TV sales to blu ray/HD Players is asininie...with the TV, you are don't worry about studio support and what channels you can watch...pretty much every TV can play the same cable/satellite/OTA channels which is not the case with blu ray/HD DVD...

this is is just another sad HD DVD fan boy thread...
If price isn't king then how do you explain Wal-Mart?

If HonYota priced cars beyond reasonable they'd also take a dive. Folks like Sony TV, but not for double the price.

Too cheap = QC issues = even slower load times = more freeze ups = throw player through window = buy Blu Ray = Great picture and no QC issues.

Oh my! You never owned a Samsung BD-P1000 did you. I did for a week. It was cr@p and the original price was 1000 bucks (I paid 250)!

Now we are finding out that BR players will not be able to play ANY BD+ discs without a firmware upgrade. Since most do not even have an Ethernet port, that will stink.

Here is a fact. If you buy an HD DVD player today, you will be able to play at least 99% of the discs released over the next 12 months without a frimware update. You can not say that about BR.

if price is king, why has blu ray been winning by a 2:1 margin in disks all year??? ...


Hello! PS3...Buy a console and get a FREE BR player. Sony losing BILLIONS to subsidize the PS3. PS3 cheaper than any stand-alone for the first 6 months. Ring a bell?

Even if you buy the cheaper priced player, the HiDef DVD's still give J6P sticker shock when the same movie is 1/2 price or less on SD DVD.

It's hard to justify for J6P to buy a cheap player and spend twice as much or more for some enhanced PQ/AQ when the drama, suspense and storyline of the movie is exactly the same.

I mean, when watching a movie, do you get caught up on PQ/AQ so much that you don't lose yourself in the movie storyline ?

I think HiDef DVD's needs to come down on price comparable or the same as SD DVD and also provide day and date release discounts like the SD DVD's do during the first week of release. This would give J6P more of an incentive to buy a cheap priced player if the HiDef DVD's cost the same as SD DVD's.
I mean if the studio's truely want HDM to be the new DVD format and survive, they should be willing to take a less of a cut on HiDef DVD's sales to get the consumer to buy in to the HDM format.

"Proof that price matters (and likely is the most important factor) "

Proof would be in what the reality is. HD DVD has had a price advantage for a very long time, Blu-Ray has been outselling HD DVD by a massive margin...

If price isn't king then how do you explain Wal-Mart?

If HonYota priced cars beyond reasonable they'd also take a dive. Folks like Sony TV, but not for double the price.

your reply is total BS (just like this thread)....

what about Walmart?? Their electronic prices are the same as everyone else's (ipod's, PS3's, 360's, etc)...

Honda/Toyotas are probably $5K more than a comparable Kia/Hyundai...if price is king, Honda and Toyota would not be at the top of the list every year...if price were king, most people wouldn't roll their eyes or snicker when they hear the words Hyundai or Kia...

Even if you buy the cheaper priced player, the HiDef DVD's still give J6P sticker shock when the same movie is 1/2 price or less on SD DVD.

I mean, when watching a movie, do you get caught up on PQ/AQ so much that you don't lose yourself in the movie storyline ?
Have to agree with you, the cost of the media needs to be addressed. It's too high.

And, sadly, I have been guilty of the 2nd sentence :o

Proof would be in what the reality is. HD DVD has had a price advantage for a very long time, Blu-Ray has been outselling HD DVD by a massive margin...
According to Home Media Research, the totals through July are 2.2 million in Blu-Ray and 1.5 million in HD DVD, or roughly 1.46:1

But hey, if you want to call that "massive" fine with me, but toss in the 1.8 million players to 350,000 players and it ain't so hot.........apparently an opinion shared by folks at Paramount.

Hello! PS3...Buy a console and get a FREE BR player. Sony losing BILLIONS to subsidize the PS3. PS3 cheaper than any stand-alone for the first 6 months. Ring a bell?

WTH does this to with Price is King???

Price does matter! $150,000,000 buys quite a lot...

Obviously price effects market penetration, but it's not the only factor. You can't use the price of products in an already established marketplace (flat panel TVs) as a point of comparison with products in a format war.

Why are HD DVD fans unable to do an apples to apples coparison? Is it because they don't get the answer they like when they do?

your reply is total BS (just like this thread)....

what about Walmart?? Their electronic prices are the same as everyone else's (ipod's, PS3's, 360's, etc)...

Honda/Toyotas are probably $5K more than a comparable Kia/Hyundai...if price is king, Honda and Toyota would not be at the top of the list every year...if price were king, most people wouldn't roll their eyes or snicker when they hear the words Hyundai or Kia...
LMAO........no, what's BS is this post.

You are aware that the price on PS3s, 360s, and iPods are set by the manufacturer, right? Hint - that's why price cut announcements come from Microsoft, Apple, and Sony. The retailer makes exactly $0 on the consoles - their revenue comes from games & accessories.

If Wally's sells all CE devices for the same price then why are they steadily eroding CC/BB's marketshare?

It may not have trickled down to the fart can crowd yet but I guarantee you both Honda & Toyota are paying attention to the strides made by Hyundai in the last few years. And you'll note the prices for their (Honda/Toyota) aren't 50% more than the competition. Why? Simple, name will carry you only so far because price counts.

WTH does this to with Price is King???

What do free and price have to do with each other? Why did so many people by a PS3 because it was the cheapest BR player? I could go on forever on that one.

Just out of curiousity Lee, since Robert from Value Electronics posted that his $199 special last month cost him $12,000 on around 400 A2's because he was selling them below cost, that Walmart or any other B&M could sell a next generaton player priced the same or lower?

The A3 is not the same player as the A2 as far as the number of components in it even though the result is the same as far as PQ and AQ.

The A3 will be used this Xmas - the A2 is over - moving the inventory to make room for the A3

And I guaratnee you that Robert is a good buiness man. He did not telll the whole story because good buiness men avoid deals that cost them money. Tuff to stay in business if you keep losing money.

Loss leaders come to mind or buy up's for other products like receivers and HDTV's - both of which he sells.

My Costco just got in the brand new 52" Vizio 1080P model for $2K.

I used to rag on Vizios because their 42" and 47" models suffered from severe black wash outs.

I don't know what Vizio changed, but the 52" is a marked improvement.

Very nice, its the first Vizio I would consider buying.

The A3 is not the same player as the A2 as far as the number of components in it even though the result is the same as far as PQ and AQ.

The A3 will be used this Xmas - the A2 is over - moving the inventory to make room for the A3

And I guaratnee you that Robert is a good buiness man. He did not telll the whole story because good buiness men avoid deals that cost them money. Tuff to stay in business if you keep losing money.

Loss leaders come to mind or buy up's for other products like receivers and HDTV's - both of which he sells.

I bought a car below invoice. Boy did I screw that car dealer - they lost money big time. Right? I am the only person to "pay less than invoice" aren't I?

My Costco just got in the brand new 52" Vizio 1080P model for $2K.

I used to rag on Vizios because their 42" and 47" models suffered from severe black wash outs.

I don't know what Vizio changed, but the 52" is a marked improvement.

Very nice, its the first Vizio I would consider buying.

I know that its only 768p, but that 60 inch one looks sweet.

LMAO........no, what's BS is this post.

You are aware that the price on PS3s, 360s, and iPods are set by the manufacturer, right? Hint - that's why price cut announcements come from Microsoft, Apple, and Sony. The retailer makes exactly $0 on the consoles - their revenue comes from games & accessories.

If Wally's sells all CE devices for the same price then why are they steadily eroding CC/BB's marketshare?

It may not have trickled down to the fart can crowd yet but I guarantee you both Honda & Toyota are paying attention to the strides made by Hyundai in the last few years. And you'll note the prices for their (Honda/Toyota) aren't 50% more than the competition. Why? Simple, name will carry you only so far because price counts.

this whole thread is about price is king and since cheap Vizio LCD TV's are now best sellers, HD DVD will sell better than blu ray because it is cheaper.

Please let me know if this is not what this thread is about...

Buying a 360/PS3/iPod/etc at walmart is not going to be cheaper than CC or BB which was your implication in your reply of 'What about Walmart?'...we are talking about prices to consumers here, not marketshare...

and your last post confirms that price is not king...it might be in the future, but as of right now, the more expensvie Honda/Toyotas are preferred and sell better than Hyundai and Kias....

What do free and price have to do with each other? Why did so many people by a PS3 because it was the cheapest BR player? I could go on forever on that one.

go spout your off topic trash elsewhere...this thread is about cheap prices being king (or not)...

It is not about your obvious biased hatred of the PS3...plz reply when you have something relevant to this thread to say...

Yesterday at Costco, a old guy (50s) was looking at Sony's BD. His wife, "$450 for a DVD player!!!"

Wait til she sees the price of the movies.

PS, I'll bet she sits at a distance so SD looks OK. Which means HDM and upconverted DVDs look about the same.

"Old guy (50s)"........hey!

I bought a car below invoice. Boy did I screw that car dealer - they lost money big time. Right? I am the only person to "pay less than invoice" aren't I?

Ah . . the dealer made money on you whether you realize, or admit it: There are two prices:

1. MSRP - sticker on window

2. Dealer Cost - Invoive

3. Dealer Hold back built in the Invoice.

Example: - (No rebates or incentives or deals from the factory - straight sale)

MSRP - $22,000

Invoice - $19,000

Dealer Hold Back - $1200

If you can buy the car for $17,800 - the dealer broke even. If you buy the car for $18,800 - you bought it below Invoice . . . but the dealer made $1000 on your sale.

The only people who are outside of this are Auto Man. employees or special fleet sale customers and you have to carry written proof with special codes to prove you are such

Not a good analogy. - spent some time in the car business

I bought a car below invoice. Boy did I screw that car dealer - they lost money big time. Right? I am the only person to "pay less than invoice" aren't I?

your anecdotal story does nothing to disprove the fact that more expensive cars (Toyotas and Hondas) are preferred and outsell comparable Kias and Hyundias...

yup...this thread totally proves that price is king....whatever...

your anecdotal story does nothing to disprove the fact that more expensive cars (Toyotas and Hondas) are preferred and outsell comparable Kias and Hyundias...

yup...this thread totally proves that price is king....whatever...

I had a car phone for many years. It started at about $500 a month and then went to $300 a month. Not too many people had car phones. Then the cell phone came out at approx $75/mo. . . . and everone had cell phones (and I abandon my car phone the day I could buy one)

So why is Wal-Mart the largest company on the Fortune 1000?

"Old guy (50s)"........hey!

We may just have to kill him!:)

go spout your off topic trash elsewhere...this thread is about cheap prices being king (or not)...

It is not about your obvious biased hatred of the PS3...plz reply when you have something relevant to this thread to say...
LMAO - now that's ironic.

LMAO - now that's ironic.

how so??? please prove how my posts in this thread are not related to the thread topic???

and then prove how these posts are related...don't make me wait too long...

"What do free and price have to do with each other? Why did so many people by a PS3 because it was the cheapest BR player? I could go on forever on that one. " and

"Hello! PS3...Buy a console and get a FREE BR player. Sony losing BILLIONS to subsidize the PS3. PS3 cheaper than any stand-alone for the first 6 months. Ring a bell?"

I had a car phone for many years. It started at about $500 a month and then went to $300 a month. Not too many people had car phones. Then the cell phone came out at approx $75/mo. . . . and everone had cell phones (and I abandon my car phone the day I could buy one)

So why is Wal-Mart the largest company on the Fortune 1000?

once again, this thread is about since Vizio LCD TV's are cheap, they are now best sellers and that since HD DVD players are cheaper, they will sell better than blu ray....

last I checked, blu ray software sales have outsold HD DVD by 2:1 and there are significantly more blu ray players in homes than HD DVD players (even though HD DVD playes 50% cheaper)...

so exactly how does this prove that price is king???

what does walmart being the largest company in the fortune 1000 have to do with this topic again??

I had a car phone for many years. It started at about $500 a month and then went to $300 a month. Not too many people had car phones. Then the cell phone came out at approx $75/mo. . . . and everone had cell phones (and I abandon my car phone the day I could buy one)

So why is Wal-Mart the largest company on the Fortune 1000?

But nobody had to carry TWO cell phones so that they could call ALL the numbers they wanted too.:)

I think someone said it best when they said it's "value" and not "price" that is king. O/W why did iPods end up ruling the MP3 market. I could start a thread based on iPods that was the exact opposite of this thread "Proof that price doesn't matter".

"Proof that price matters (and likely is the most important factor) "

Proof would be in what the reality is. HD DVD has had a price advantage for a very long time, Blu-Ray has been outselling HD DVD by a massive margin...
I expected more from you, but I expect you to bounce back quickly after the shock of the Paramount announcement. :)

Did you forget one of the PS3's sales pitches? Buy a PS3 and get a "free" Blu-ray player? I'm pretty sure you used a variation of that selling point when trying to downplay the 360 add-on.

It's been mathematically proven that "Free" is less than $299 :p 2 or 3 million PS3 gamers buying very few movies per console is why Blu-ray has their current sales advantage.

once again, this thread is about since Vizio LCD TV's are cheap, they are now best sellers and that since HD DVD players are cheaper, they will sell better than blu ray....

last I checked, blu ray software sales have outsold HD DVD by 2:1 and there are significantly more blu ray players in homes than HD DVD players (even though HD DVD playes 50% cheaper)...

so exactly how does this prove that price is king???

what does walmart being the largest company in the fortune 1000 have to do with this topic again??

We are discussing "Price is King" - that is the issue isn't it?

Wal-Mart pushes low prices - made them the #1 company in the USA - bigger than any oil company - bigger than any Industrial company. A retailer.

BD is selling 2 to 1 today . . . let's see what happens between today and 12/31. Oh and by the way - why is it that the 2 to 1 never changes? No matter how many PS3's or SAL's BD sells - it's ALWAYS 2 to 1. Why is that? I mean BD does have almost 6X the amount of hardware.

Think HD DVD can sell some players this Xmas at $199 and $149?

More signs that price matters a lot:

July Hardware Figures
Wii 425 k
Xbox 360 170k
PlayStation 3 159k

I expected more from you, but I expect you to bounce back quickly after the shock of the Paramount announcement. :)

Did you forget one of the PS3's sales pitches? Buy a PS3 and get a "free" Blu-ray player? I'm pretty sure you used a variation of that selling point when trying to downplay the 360 add-on.

It's been mathematically proven that "Free" is less than $299 :p 2 or 3 million PS3 gamers buying very few movies per console is why Blu-ray has their current sales advantage.


You might want to go back and read again, my response was in response comments about "sunken cost". I'm sure you are aware of the term, correct?

Should I have expected more from you? ;)

I personally know three people with PS3's. Between them, they have purchased 1 game, and three movies. I usually crack jokes to them at the demo's they must be enjoying... :D Why the hell plunk down $600, and do nothing with the thing. The mind boggles.

The reasons I've been given are
1) no games I want to buy (then why buy the system?)
2) My wife doesn't like videogames, I bought it for movies (then why not buy movies? This also goes to the PS3 as dedicated HDM player is not attractive to everyone. There's the videogame stigma)

Hilarious. X360 is a year older and still beats the PS3 in sales. PS3 is an utter flop.

So the 360 is an utter flop in your mind since the Wii has already passed it up despite not even being out a year, with the 360 having an entire years headstart.

More signs that price matters a lot:

July Hardware Figures
Wii 425 k
Xbox 360 170k
PlayStation 3 159k

Not always.

PS2 100m +

gamecube 30m?

and gamecube throughout its lifetime was always cheaper than PS2.

Reading comprehension. Get some. The Wii launched later, and is just becoming more readily available. Hence higher sales. The newer the product the higher the sales. 2 years into the Wii's lifetime it won't be selling 425k units/month.

Yes, follow your own advice and "get some". 360 is readily available and has been for a long time, yet still was surpassed by the Wii despite the 360 being on the market a year longer and the Wii still being supply constrained. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You might want to go back and read again, my response was in response comments about "sunken cost". I'm sure you are aware of the term, correct?

Should I have expected more from you? ;)

:confused: Your original quote was

"Proof that price matters (and likely is the most important factor) "

Proof would be in what the reality is. HD DVD has had a price advantage for a very long time, Blu-Ray has been outselling HD DVD by a massive margin...

Actually I don't even remember exactly (or even closely) what you said months ago (don't be offended, but I don't remember a lot of things these days :o), but as long as you are bringing it up, sunken costs could be viewed as a technical description of why you can market a "free" BDplayer with every PS3. A very high percentage of PS3 owners would have bought the PS3 whether or not it had BD playback, so BD playback was just a bonus (although some did buy the PS3 mainly or solely for BD playback, I'm estimating it's a pretty small percentage).

You tried to imply that HD DVD sales are behind even though they have cheaper players. The fact is that the most PS3 owners got their Trojan horse Bd player for free as part of the cost of their game machine.

So, your attempt at logic fails because your basic assumption isn't true because the "Free" PS3 player is less than $299 (or whatever) HD DVD player.

Johnu, If you have forgotten you can do research and go back on you time.. That is one quote from me and it is indeed correct. Not sure why you have the frowny question mark face but maybe some research will help you turn that frwon upside down.

My attempt at logic doesn't fail, I merely stated facts. PS3 isn't free, nor is the HD DVD add-on a $180 a functioning HD DVD player on its own.

More signs that price matters a lot:

July Hardware Figures
Wii 425 k
Xbox 360 170k
PlayStation 3 159k
And how much is M$ losing fixing/replacing failed 360's and sending out those "coffin" boxes ? :eek:

I wonder how that's affecting their ROI ?

Oh, and did you hear their racing wheel controllers are getting too hot as well and emitting smoke and requiring modifications/replacement recently. :eek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20412967/


.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.
Semblance, trust me, I like my expensive AV equipment, but people who can't afford it shouldn't be denied HD movies on a disc. At least not if HD movies on a disc are going to take off to any greater extent.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

Let me guess... you're selling TVs for a living? Or working at an audio/video boutique store?

Logically, these are the only people interested in higher prices for such products.

Not always.

PS2 100m +

gamecube 30m?

and gamecube throughout its lifetime was always cheaper than PS2.

WOW..you cant compare the GC to a ps2 thats just wrong...GC was the worst thing nintendo ever could have done,thats why they where taken so lightly when they brought out they wii and now even EA has said they where sorry for looking down on them..

The ipod thing is different. Yes you can get Mp3 players that will do everything ipods can for half the price.
Ipod has just a stagering amount of extras. Boomboxes, movie players. Cases, my walmart has 40 ft or so just fo ipod stuff. Their regular boom box area is only 8ft. Even then 2 of the boomboxes have aux in with a gernric ipod symbol.

I would have bought a cretive or zune but theirs just so much stuff for the ipod. I was eazly able to rip 30 DVDs to the ipod.
Oddly I've never used itunes or any online music outlet. All my music and movies were from my own collection. All 200 or so CDs and a bunch of movies.

Although I'm thinking I may get a large HDD for movie backup as I ran out of space..



But back on topic now..

WOW..you cant compare the GC to a ps2 thats just wrong...GC was the worst thing nintendo ever could have done,thats why they where taken so lightly when they brought out they wii and now even EA has said they where sorry for looking down on them..

Why isn't GC a valid comparison? Graphically, GC was just as good as PS2, if not better. The only reason it got slaughtered is because PS2 had a far more content.

Xbox was also usually cheaper than PS2 because MS cut prices faster than PS2, yet PS2 destroyed xbox as well. I wonder why. Do you see a trend here?

Oh and btw, the reason people look down on GC is because it is basically an overclocked gamecube with a fancy controller.

My attempt at logic doesn't fail, I merely stated facts. PS3 isn't free, nor is the HD DVD add-on a $180 a functioning HD DVD player on its own.

Who brought up the 360 add-on? I don't think it was me. I certainly don't think it is free, and everybody probably knows it needs a 360 or PC to run, hence the name add-on. If I wanted to use it as an example, I would have substituted $180 for the $299 I attributed to the Toshiba. Does it tell you anything that I never mentioned it?

Getting back to what you said:

Proof would be in what the reality is. HD DVD has had a price advantage for a very long time, Blu-Ray has been outselling HD DVD by a massive margin....

In your reality, HD DVD has a price advantage. With any kind of economic analysis, BD, with millions of gamers buying PS3, and getting a "Free" BD player has the price advantage. You don't have to believe me. Look at Sony's own sales pitch.

The shocking thing is that people who claim to be A/V enthusiasts are rooting for price to be king. Disgusting. Such people are not legitimate A/V enthusiasts.

Actually I will bite on that quote. I agree with you, this format war has driving things down quickly to it being a price war. Good for the general consumer to try to buy in cheap, not good for the A/V enthusiasts because we want the best quality etc. I think the PS3 is very well made, can't say that for the Xbox 360 that has been exchanged twice and or my A1 I no longer have. The problem is with this war, even your A/V enthusiasts and videophile/audiophile types won't buy in because nothing is on solid ground right now. Denon 2K player and Pioneer Elite players are going to take a big hit, funny on how most manufacturers are banking on one format but studios are wavering in the wind!

Here's my little moment of clarity on why price DOES matter...

We are in a "format war" - which means buyers are worried that their purchase of a BD or HD player will be "lost" in the long run - however unfounded such a concern may be.

So... they are faced with spending $200 for a player with the most movies on the market (thanks to the Paramount and Dreamworks decisions), or should they drop $500 on a BD player?

Game, Set, Match - HD DVD... Welcome to the 2007 holiday shopping season...

Here's my little moment of clarity on why price DOES matter...

We are in a "format war" - which means buyers are worried that their purchase of a BD or HD player will be "lost" in the long run - however unfounded such a concern may be.

So... they are faced with spending $200 for a player with the most movies on the market (thanks to the Paramount and Dreamworks decisions), or should they drop $500 on a BD player?

Game, Set, Match - HD DVD... Welcome to the 2007 holiday shopping season...

Where do you come up with "most movie's on the market"? That would be true if Warner goes exclusive to HD-DVD but is a false and untrue statement still...

Here's my little moment of clarity on why price DOES matter...

We are in a "format war" - which means buyers are worried that their purchase of a BD or HD player will be "lost" in the long run - however unfounded such a concern may be.

So... they are faced with spending $200 for a player with the most movies on the market (thanks to the Paramount and Dreamworks decisions), or should they drop $500 on a BD player?

Game, Set, Match - HD DVD... Welcome to the 2007 holiday shopping season...

Well with Paramounts announcement I can see why you are delusional. JK :p
We are still in the game on both sides of the fence we will be in a major match stuck at duce especially for some time to come if WB goes strictly HD-DVD. Man for some reason I think this place must be owned by MS, has anyone seen Amir? ;) LOL

I love how people start deflecting in all direction when the shoe doesn't fit.

In mass consumer land, price is KING. Obviously, on AVS we're not mass consumers of goods associated to our hobby. Thus we have a skewed perspective of things. Trying to convince ANY of my friends and family to get a 4k+ Pioneer Plasma over a 2k equivalent Vizio or Westinghouse is simply impossible. So is telling them spend $400+ on a "Hi Def DVD Player" when they're already convinced that their upscaling DVD player is the same as Hi Def and really just good enough......and yes, this is after being impressed by HD DVD/BR on my Pioneer. They just don't care.

Price of players is certainly one factor but the price of media is even more important. You buy one player but media is a recurring cost. Telling people to fork over $30+ a disc routinely (esp. on non reference quality discs) is an uphill battle to say the least.

Who brought up the 360 add-on? I don't think it was me. I certainly don't think it is free, and everybody probably knows it needs a 360 or PC to run, hence the name add-on. If I wanted to use it as an example, I would have substituted $180 for the $299 I attributed to the Toshiba. Does it tell you anything that I never mentioned it?

Getting back to what you said:



In your reality, HD DVD has a price advantage. With any kind of economic analysis, BD, with millions of gamers buying PS3, and getting a "Free" BD player has the price advantage. You don't have to believe me. Look at Sony's own sales pitch.

Perhaps you should get back to what I said and not what Sony sales pitch says when you're addressing me and making claims about me. You've gone way beyond reaching now, which I admit is funny :)

Where do you come up with "most movie's on the market"? That would be true if Warner goes exclusive to HD-DVD but is a false and untrue statement still...Right now, there are about the same number of titles available on both HD and BD.

But the Paramount and Dreamworks announcements represent an immediate shift of about 60 titles, based on existing releases, and announced future releases alone.

This also does not take into account reports that Dreamworks and Paramount will be launching a massive HD DVD release schedule for the holiday season.

Based on the 60 titles immediately affected, there is no question that HD DVD now has more titles on the market than BD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=896107

So ease up a little with "false and untrue" bit...

More signs that price matters a lot:

July Hardware Figures
Wii 425 k
Xbox 360 170k
PlayStation 3 159k
These numbers tell you all you need to know.

A) the casual gamer market is far larger than the die-hard market

B) the casual market is very price sensitive, must be well under $300

Spin it however you need to make yourself feel comfortable but the data clearly shows that price is king. It also makes it quite evident the price ceiling for a game console is under $300.

And how much is M$ losing fixing/replacing failed 360's and sending out those "coffin" boxes ? :eek:

I wonder how that's affecting their ROI ?

Oh, and did you hear their racing wheel controllers are getting too hot as well and emitting smoke and requiring modifications/replacement recently. :eek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20412967/


.

And yet the 360 continues to out sell the PS3. I was at CC last week and they had only about 12 PS3 titles. It was like an Atari Jaguar display. My bet is that within two years software for the PS3 will dry up and people will be dumping them.

The ipod thing is different. Yes you can get Mp3 players that will do everything ipods can for half the price. Ipod has just a stagering amount of extras.

It didn't start out that way. The iPod has dominated MP3 sales despite coming late to the game and being more expensive.

It didn't start out that way. The iPod has dominated MP3 sales despite coming late to the game and being more expensive.

Hmmmmm. . . . sounds like HDM

These numbers tell you all you need to know.

A) the casual gamer market is far larger than the die-hard market

B) the casual market is very price sensitive, must be well under $300

Spin it however you need to make yourself feel comfortable but the data clearly shows that price is king. It also makes it quite evident the price ceiling for a game console is under $300.

More like market sells units..... Wii has had a excellent marketing campaign and the same with the iPod. And it shows the Low Def market is still there, sure price helped, a lot. The way the US economy is price will be king, we are flooded with cheap and some times good Chinese electronics.. The way they should have sold the PS3 would be a large room looked up to some different sized HD TVs, better launch titles thats for sure. This year will be the year of titles for the Xbox 360 and the PS3....

Hmmmmm. . . . sounds like HDM

And Blu-Ray.

costco has a vizio 32 inch hdtv its 720p but has a vga or dvi port (forgot which) for my 360 , 2 hdmi ports and costs only $500. Other 32 inch tv sets are much more expensive than that even at 720p

I'm buying this tv to replace an older crt from toshiba that did color stream 480p .it looks like crap now and its slowly dieing so i'm sure i will love it. I currently watch hd dvd's from my pc monitor thats a 22inch westinghouse and play my xbox 360 on it also.

Next year I'm getting my own place and can't really afford nor have the room for something bigger and more expensive . When I move next year i will have a living room and then I will save up for a nice 50 or 60 inch Samsung tv. the 32 inch would stay in my room and i will be more than happy with it there

I love how people start deflecting in all direction when the shoe doesn't fit.

In mass consumer land, price is KING.

then why do we have 5 star restaurants when you can go to the Golden Corral buffet or Mcdonalds? Why are Kias/Hyundais not the best selling cars? Why even sell Denon/Harmon Kardon receivers when you can get Coby HTIB? Why are ipods the best selling (and most expensive) mp3 players?

Price is not king...value (or perceived value) is king...there is a difference...

And Blu-Ray.

HDM= High Def Media - includes both HD DVD and BD.;)

And yet the 360 continues to out sell the PS3. I was at CC last week and they had only about 12 PS3 titles. It was like an Atari Jaguar display. My bet is that within two years software for the PS3 will dry up and people will be dumping them.

Well that is simple! THe Xbox has had 1 year start on the PS3, if you really want to compare, look at the Wii. Started off about the same time, no HD and not that much titles and it is out selling both. The PS3 needs better marketing and better games, and boy are the games coming....

Here is just one example of a game that will be out next month..

http://www.us.playstation.com/heavenlysword/media_video.html

From the same company that brought us LOTR...

http://www.wetadigital.com/digital/company/filmography/


spacejamz: Totally agree with you on your post.... If price was king I would have all Apex DVD players in my house. Although a nice little player for the money I returned 2 of them with in 1 month, so I spent the extra
cash on some thing built better.

HDM= High Def Media - includes both HD DVD and BD.;)

I know, but I just couldn't pass that up. Please forgive me.

<anger giant list of posters>

...$200-$500 to pay to play half of the big movies coming out isn't a very intelligent way to spend money IMO.

...if he wont be able to watch half the movies being released. Would J6P have bought the cheaper LCD TV if he wouldn't be able to receive all the channels?

...pretty much every TV can play the same cable/satellite/OTA channels which is not the case with blu ray/HD DVD...


But nobody had to carry TWO cell phones so that they could call ALL the numbers they wanted too.:)

Where do you come up with "most movie's on the market"? That would be true if Warner goes exclusive to HD-DVD but is a false and untrue statement still...

Both HD DVD and Blu-ray players play 100% of the (DVD) movies on the market, it is just that they each only play a subset of HDM. I suspect most casual folks will look for the HD version and if it is not available for their player just buy the DVD version and be happy that it looks good upscaled.
</anger giant list of posters>

Too cheap = QC issues = even slower load times = more freeze ups = throw player through window = buy Blu Ray = Great picture and no QC issues.

$99 HD DVD players will be Blu Ray's Trojan Horse against HD DVD. THey can't even make the $600 player perfect...I can only imagine the way a $99 player will perform. $99 HD DVD players will be the revolt BD is counting on!!!:D This may be why most B+M stores have shunned HD DVD...Too many returns. $99 players may create a tsunami of returns (this post sounds like Lee Stewart in the Bizarro world).

Introduction to basic manufacturing quality & statistical process control 101:
Higher volumes = greater ability to increase quality.