Can anyone who've had experience with both please chime in? In a month or so I'm planning on getting a 720p projector for my living room, but I'm thinking that maybe I should spend extra for a 1080p projector. 1080p projectors seem to be about 2-3 times the price though. My screen will be 100", and from what I've read, with a screen size this large 1080p is definately the only way to go.

Thanks

100" diagonal or width?

How far from the screen will you sit?

Research seating distance. How far back are you sitting?

If you're not close enough, and you don't have the source material, you will not benefit from 1080p.

-ELmO

100" diaganal, and the pj will be used for hd/bd movies, and hi-def video games. i'll be sitting 11-12 feet back

ive researched seating distance before, but everyone's eyes are different. so im just looking for 1st hand experience to help me decide if spending 2-3x the price is worth it.

Generally accepted that at greater than 1.8 screen widths viewing distance you can not see the pixel structure on 720, I saw one today that I got to 1.3 screen widths before it was visible.

The rule of thumb is 1.3 for 1080, but some PJ let you get down to 0.8 screen widths.

1080 is better subjectively but not as bright per dollar.

Consider that any standard DVD is on the disk encoded at 480i so everything above that in content is generated by a scaler.

For me I just bought a high end 720 unit with lots of light.



100" diaganal, and the pj will be used for hd/bd movies, and hi-def video games. i'll be sitting 11-12 feet back

ive researched seating distance before, but everyone's eyes are different. so im just looking for 1st hand experience to help me decide if spending 2-3x the price is worth it.

personally I would wait - there are not alot of choices in the $3000.
range. Prices will come down soon enough and you will have alot more
to choose from. I have a Sanyo Z5 and the thing is super sharp, I can
definitely wait for the price drop on the 1080p.

so im just looking for 1st hand experience to help me decide if spending 2-3x the price is worth it.

Not worth it, IMO.

However, if you can live with spending the 2-3x the price for marginal improvement in PQ, go for it as long as you can also deal with the fact that one year from now your $3k PJ will be selling for $1k.

I know if you wait on technology, you will never pull the trigger. However, as far as I know, there are no current plans to go up from 1080p. If you want 1080p and want it at the best price point, wait 6 months to 1 year. Differences between 1080 PJs then will be in the noise for anyone other than true videophiles.

The other thing I wanted to mention in the 1080 v 720 question that is on many buyers' minds is that to take advantage of 1080p, consider your source. Most HDTV broadcast are 1080i. This leaves you with an HTPC, HD DVD or Blu-Ray. If you can get everything you want to see in the latter 3 formats, great. However, my guess is that you will not.

It depends on which PJs you are considering for your situation. I'd narrow your choices for a PJ based off where it needs to be mounted. They all have different distances from the screen and different heights they need to be mounted at. Noise needs to be considered, especially if mounted directly over your head. There will be a lot of opinions but if it doesn't fit your situation they aren't a good choice. At 11-12 feet back the resolution differences are small and other aspects of picture quality should be considered.

There are some excellent closeout deals on high end 720P PJs that are no longer current models. These PJs were $10K+ a year ago. I'd go for a high end 720P over a value 1080P. None of the current under $3k 1080P PJs beat the high end 720Ps in other aspects of picture and build quality. If you are going into the >$3K territory that is another story:D

If you are comparing one of the current value 720P PJs in the $1k range I might spend the extra for a current 1080P costing more.

The other thing to consider is what are you sacrificing in other areas of your system to spend 2-3x more on the PJ alone, ie better screen, better audio, remote control system, etc. You have to decide the best tradeoffs.

Hope this helps

Bob

Too bad we can't get a demo of most of these models like with tvs at the store.

That's why this process of choosing is so maddening. These are expensive choices.

100" diaganal, and the pj will be used for hd/bd movies, and hi-def video games. i'll be sitting 11-12 feet back

ive researched seating distance before, but everyone's eyes are different. so im just looking for 1st hand experience to help me decide if spending 2-3x the price is worth it.

At that viewing distance I would highly recommend 1080P. It is true the people's vision varies greatly but you are definitely sitting close enough that many people would see screen door. Also the best case scenerio is that you will be right at the veiwing threshold where the screen door disappears but at that distance the image will not not be as smooth as you might like. Go for the solution that is going to make you feel best about your home theater over the long term.

personally I would wait - there are not alot of choices in the $3000.
range. Prices will come down soon enough and you will have alot more
to choose from. I have a Sanyo Z5 and the thing is super sharp, I can
definitely wait for the price drop on the 1080p.

I think if you own a nice projector as you do it is easy to tell others to wait. This could be good advice for someone who already has a projector but this isn't always about getting the best deal because if it was everyone would still be waiting. Would you want to deny yourself the fun you have had with your Z5 just because in 1 or 2 years 1080P might be the same price as the Z5 was? You can't always put a price tag on a purchase that for many of us is more of a hobby and passion than a practical buying decision.

Not worth it, IMO.

However, if you can live with spending the 2-3x the price for marginal improvement in PQ, go for it as long as you can also deal with the fact that one year from now your $3k PJ will be selling for $1k.

I know if you wait on technology, you will never pull the trigger. However, as far as I know, there are no current plans to go up from 1080p. If you want 1080p and want it at the best price point, wait 6 months to 1 year. Differences between 1080 PJs then will be in the noise for anyone other than true videophiles.

The other thing I wanted to mention in the 1080 v 720 question that is on many buyers' minds is that to take advantage of 1080p, consider your source. Most HDTV broadcast are 1080i. This leaves you with an HTPC, HD DVD or Blu-Ray. If you can get everything you want to see in the latter 3 formats, great. However, my guess is that you will not.

Im pretty much going to be using it for BD, HD, and Games (PS3/360/PC). No HDTV and no SD sources Ill watch those in the tv in my bedroom. I guess I'll just go with a 720p pj now since prices are supposed to be falling soon enough. I'll upgrade then and ebay the unit I'll be getting.

The other thing to consider is what are you sacrificing in other areas of your system to spend 2-3x more on the PJ alone, ie better screen, better audio, remote control system, etc. You have to decide the best tradeoffs.

Bob

I just got my audio system together and I've had a harmony remote for close to a year so I'm ok on that end. The screen I'm not sure of, but I'll get that after getting the pj mounted.

Too bad we can't get a demo of most of these models like with tvs at the store.

That's why this process of choosing is so maddening. These are expensive choices.

I know, I went into bestbuy/CC who have some 720p projectors on hand, but they had them in a room with way too much light connected to a sd source. the room right next to it had a wall mounted 42" lcd playing blu-ray.

B]At 11-12 feet back the resolution differences are small and other aspects of picture quality should be considered.[/B]

[QUOTE=leckian;11433619]At that viewing distance I would highly recommend 1080P. It is true the people's vision varies greatly but you are definitely sitting close enough that many people would see screen door.[QUOTE]

If I understand what both you guys are saying, I'm sitting far enough back that the difference between 1080p and 720p is marginal, but I'm sitting close enough that SDE would be visible? I've never had a DLP before so I'm not sure what SDE even looks like.

Considering this is going to be my 1st entry into front projection land and the only 1st hand experience I've had is seeing the crappy setups in BB/CC, I'm going to go cheap and get the 720p model. Worse case scenario I can ebay the unit and recoup some of my money if Im not happy with the results.

If I understand what both you guys are saying, I'm sitting far enough back that the difference between 1080p and 720p is marginal, but I'm sitting close enough that SDE would be visible? I've never had a DLP before so I'm not sure what SDE even looks like.

Look at it this way, for a given size screen, the number of pixels in a 1080 spread will be greater than that of a 720 by 50% (actually more, but who's counting). This means, in essence, the pixels on 1080 are smaller and also the distance between them is smaller. SDE should be of less a concern on 1080 than anything lower in resolution. Therefore, you can sit closer to a 1080 image than you could a 720 image before your eyes discern the gaps between pixels.

Compound this by the fact that, as you move away from the screen, at a certain distance from a given size screen, your eyes cannot resolve a difference between 720 & 1080. Therefore, to take advantage of 1080 content on a 1080 screen, most viewers will sit closer than they would if they were viewing 720 content on a 720 screen.

As mentioned above, 1.3x - 1.5x screen width is the accepted (THX recommended) viewing distance for 720 content. Reduce this to 0.8x - 1.2x for 1080 content.

Setting up a PJ for the first time is like working on a grade 10 science fair project. Only most of us aren't as smart now as we were in grade 10! :p

Having gone from a 1080p from a 720p I can say these things:

Source material is more important (unless its a hi res source it looks like ass, ie BD/HD or HD native cable material)

1080p is not as much light, dont do it unless you have a bat cave(i have one)

I am running 110" from about 14" feet away - I can tell when the source material is the best...other than that I couldt tell you the difference between the 2 PJs.

Also 1080p gives HDMI switches/recievers/cables more trouble than 720p/1080i and I have had more "fun" getting all sources to match up with 1080p using an hdmi switch

Look at it this way, for a given size screen, the number of pixels in a 1080 spread will be greater than that of a 720 by 50% (actually more, but who's counting). This means, in essence, the pixels on 1080 are smaller and also the distance between them is smaller. SDE should be of less a concern on 1080 than anything lower in resolution. Therefore, you can sit closer to a 1080 image than you could a 720 image before your eyes discern the gaps between pixels.

Compound this by the fact that, as you move away from the screen, at a certain distance from a given size screen, your eyes cannot resolve a difference between 720 & 1080. Therefore, to take advantage of 1080 content on a 1080 screen, most viewers will sit closer than they would if they were viewing 720 content on a 720 screen.

As mentioned above, 1.3x - 1.5x screen width is the accepted (THX recommended) viewing distance for 720 content. Reduce this to 0.8x - 1.2x for 1080 content.

Setting up a PJ for the first time is like working on a grade 10 science fair project. Only most of us aren't as smart now as we were in grade 10! :p

Considering I slept a lot during the 10th grade, thats not very reassuring. I didn't expect it to be too hard, im just anticipating that the projector calculator is more of a rough guideline than actual blueprints.

Having gone from a 1080p from a 720p I can say these things:

Source material is more important (unless its a hi res source it looks like ass, ie BD/HD or HD native cable material)

1080p is not as much light, dont do it unless you have a bat cave(i have one)

I am running 110" from about 14" feet away - I can tell when the source material is the best...other than that I couldt tell you the difference between the 2 PJs.

Also 1080p gives HDMI switches/recievers/cables more trouble than 720p/1080i and I have had more "fun" getting all sources to match up with 1080p using an hdmi switch

ok, well thats good to hear, seems like 720p would be best since prices are falling and 1080 displays and the difference doesnt seem to be worth the 2-3x price premium. i can't wait til october.

First of all leckian I said "personally I would wait"
Second - the OP said he was tryin to decide on a 720 or 1080p PJ - the point I was tryin
to make is that if he got a good 720 PJ now, then maybe he could then wait to see for
the 1080 prices to drop and have more choices. Thats why I mentioned that I had the
Z5. And if you really look at it I think there are only two 1080p PJs that are around $3000. and one of them is a DLP so if you need either one you really only have one
choice. Now speakin dollar wise - you can get a nice 720 PJ for about $1000. -
BenQ 500 - a couple hundred less or maybe Sanyo Z5 -acouple hundred more, then
wait a year or two like you said and get a nice 1080p for maybe $1500. and you still
spent less than $3000.

There have been some good comments here I would just add that for me, 720P and 1080P don't make much difference on video - the source is the crucial factor, as others have mentioned (I run 2.35:1 135 diag 11ft seating distance)

BUT - I noticed you are looking at HTPC/PC Games - Here 1080P makes a huge difference, if you can afford it, because the material can take advantage of the resolution - i.e. reading text and seeing more screen real estate is great on the 1080P! I know it is quite a few more $$, but mounting and wiring a projector is a lot of work, so consider that as you make your decision.

Having said that, I am on a very tight budget so I went with a used Sharp DT-500 (720P - also great lumens - I didn't want to be in a bat cave) and am saving pennies for those first $1K 1080Ps that should be out 2008 CEDIA(...he says hopefully...)

Either way you will enjoy! Oblivion on the 360 at 8 feet wide is a blast!

First, 720p is far from dead. All the major networks broadcast in 720p; discoveryhd is the exception.

The current gen gaming systems are 720p, and hd dvd looks damn good on a 720p display.

In a year 1080p will be at or under 1k. For now, I guess I'll "just make do" with my 720p display.

First, 720p is far from dead. All the major networks broadcast in 720p; discoveryhd is the exception.Aren't CBS, NBC, PBS 1080i?

Aren't CBS, NBC, PBS 1080i?

Most HD stations are 1080i, including HBO and Starz HD (I get them for free).

I believe all sports on HDTV are 720P.

I believe all sports on HDTV are 720P.

NBC is now broadcasting at 1080i. Watch Sunday night football. Double check CBS also.

Most all broadcast is 1080i, 720p is the rare exception in most all markets.

ABC, FOX and ESPN are the big ones for 720P most of the rest are 1080i.

First of all leckian I said "personally I would wait"
Second - the OP said he was tryin to decide on a 720 or 1080p PJ - the point I was tryin
to make is that if he got a good 720 PJ now, then maybe he could then wait to see for
the 1080 prices to drop and have more choices. Thats why I mentioned that I had the
Z5. And if you really look at it I think there are only two 1080p PJs that are around $3000. and one of them is a DLP so if you need either one you really only have one
choice. Now speakin dollar wise - you can get a nice 720 PJ for about $1000. -
BenQ 500 - a couple hundred less or maybe Sanyo Z5 -acouple hundred more, then
wait a year or two like you said and get a nice 1080p for maybe $1500. and you still
spent less than $3000.
You make several good points and perhaps I wrongly assumed you were advising bdizzel, who doesn't have a projector to wait. I would say given his screen size and viewing distance it might be worth going with 1080P now. For the time being I am happy with my 720P projector as many including you are, and while I have seen 1080P on numerous occasions, I agree with many posters that the 720P projectors, while not as good of a picture, especially at close viewing distances, are adequate especially if your criteria emphasize the price gap between 720P and 1080P. However there is more than one level of perception--for example you have obvious and subtle. 1080P may not provide an obvious in your face improvement over high quality 720P, but it can help create a better overall experience with better presentation of fine detail, smoother transitions, less diagonal jaggies/stairstepping and aliasing, smoother image due to increased pixel density and increased sense of image depth. If someone feels that 720P is good enough then it is, however that does change the fact that if two displays are equivalent in all aspects except one is 720P and the other is 1080P and assuming excellent video processing/scaling, the 1080P will look noticeably better even with relatively low resolution sources like standard DVD.

I thought FOX switched? No? If not, then ABC and ESPN, and FOX are enough for me to admit I was wrong in my post. Lots of 720p going on. In all honesty you really don't think much about this once you have had HDTV for a longer period of time.

My bad, I thought they were still in 720p.

Oh well, 720p is "better" than 1080i....Let the flame war begin......

My bad, I thought they were still in 720p.

Oh well, 720p is "better" than 1080i....Let the flame war begin......
Theoretically 720P would be better on a 720P display and 1080i would be better on a 1080P display. I have found with HDTV and DVD that 1080i still appears sharper even on a 576 or 720P display.

I jumped from 480p to 1080p; skipped 720p altogether. To me the biggest advantage is screen size and viewing distance. I have a 106" (diagonal) picture viewing from about 11.5 ft. I want a even bigger picture and I think I have the pj to do it now!

For those that prefer a viewing distance greater than 1.5x, you're probably right that 1080p doesn't provide much advantage over 720p. And if you view from 3x, 480p will probably be adequate no matter what the source material is. So to each his own. Just enjoy your pjs.

this is easy: buy a 720 for rock bottom price and wait 2-3 years until 1080's are brighter and cheaper. It's a no brainer

this is easy: buy a 720 for rock bottom price and wait 2-3 years until 1080's are brighter and cheaper. It's a no brainer

This is America---people don't like to wait.:)

I have a/b'ed a good 720p and 1080p many times.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/pjlineup.jpg
That's an Optoma HD80 1080p, HC2000 Mits 720p, Optoma H56 1024x768 XGA 4.3

My eyes tell me there's a big difference in viewing a 1080p projector. When you go to the 720p projector it looks soft in comparison. Take a football game, you know when they show the two teams lined up for the play. Well on a 1080p projector those smaller figures now have much more pixels making up the players resolution. They just look allot better, text now looks incredibly sharp and smooth. No more pixel corners to be seen and image detail is much sharper all around.

this is easy: buy a 720 for rock bottom price and wait 2-3 years until 1080's are brighter and cheaper. It's a no brainer

My brain knows the validity of such good sense but protests vigorously all the time. Arrrrgh!:eek:

this is easy: buy a 720 for rock bottom price and wait 2-3 years until 1080's are brighter and cheaper. It's a no brainer

that's what my plan was, but i figured i should get some opinions on the matter first.

off topic: i just accepted a new IT contract today, so it looks like I'm going to get my pj earlier than I thought. My birthday is on 8/31, so it seems I'm going to have a 100" birthday. Just hope it gets here quick enough

Is this your first projector? Assuming it is, I would suggest you go with 720p for several reasons. First, you're going to get a great price. You can get any of a half dozen models for under $1500 that will blow you away. You are in the envious position of never having lived with FP before...so you're going to have a $%^@ eating grin on your face for quite a while when you fire up any HD source. Put the extra grand away...save it for your next projector purchase in a couple of years, or buy a 50" plasma for the bedroom. Point is spending the extra grand or more now will be somewhat wasted imo considering the rate of depreciation on projectors, and the fact that you will love your 720p unit. Not to mention, there aren't any 1080p models that are even close to light cannons, so to some extent you will be gaining some additional resolution at the expense of punch. I'd pull the trigger on an AX100 or Z5 or similar now, and enjoy the heck out of it for two years. At that point, bright 1080p models will be available for half the price. Just my 2 cents.

Nah don't waste your time, and time is important it just goes. Get the Optoma HD80 1080p it's way better than anything you can out there in it's price range. Your 720p projector won't be worth squat if you try to sell it. Match up your 1080i signals with a 1080p projector now!. :)

Nah don't waste your time, and time is important it just goes. Get the Optoma HD80 1080p it's way better than anything you can out there in it's price range. Your 720p projector won't be worth squat if you try to sell it. Match up your 1080i signals with a 1080p projector now!. :)


I agree with Tom and I am sick of this whole idea of deferring one's pleasure. Sure 1080 will get cheaper but it is already cheap enough. Just 3 years ago it cost close to 30K to get setup with a Sony Qualia. It is one thing if you already have a 720P projector setup and installed then waiting is a fine strategy but to intentionally settle for 720P when 1080P is available and so affordable doesn't make a lot of sense. This section of the forum is known as Digital Projectors under 3000 USD MSRP but judging from most of the posts here it should be renamed: “If it ain’t 1000 bucks or less I’m gonna wait.”

I decided not to wait for 1080p prices to drop more. I bought the Optoma HD80 at CC for $2115.00 . That was with a 10% off coupon plus the sale price they had for one weekend. Just keep an eye out for their weekend only sales. I do not think prices for 1080p will get much lower than that. I agree with guitarman the picture is so much sharper than my Panasonic AE900u.

this is easy: buy a 720 for rock bottom price and wait 2-3 years until 1080's are brighter and cheaper. It's a no brainer

DITTO, thats what I did.

I agree with Tom and I am sick of this whole idea of deferring one's pleasure. Sure 1080 will get cheaper but it is already cheap enough. Just 3 years ago it cost close to 30K to get setup with a Sony Qualia. It is one thing if you already have a 720P projector setup and installed then waiting is a fine strategy but to intentionally settle for 720P when 1080P is available and so affordable doesn't make a lot of sense. This section of the forum is known as Digital Projectors under 3000 USD MSRP but judging from most of the posts here it should be renamed: “If it ain’t 1000 bucks or less I’m gonna wait.”

Well that's me, Since this is my 1st projector and I have no clue how it's gonna look, I'd rather spend 1000 than 3000. I know this is AVS, but not everyone wants to pay a premium for this luxury or get top of the line everything. I don't see how going 720p over 1080p is deferring my pleasure though. whether I spend 400 on a refurbed hd1000 or 20k runco, I still should have a really good and big image (i hope).

I agree with Tom and I am sick of this whole idea of deferring one's pleasure. Sure 1080 will get cheaper but it is already cheap enough. Just 3 years ago it cost close to 30K to get setup with a Sony Qualia. It is one thing if you already have a 720P projector setup and installed then waiting is a fine strategy but to intentionally settle for 720P when 1080P is available and so affordable doesn't make a lot of sense. This section of the forum is known as Digital Projectors under 3000 USD MSRP but judging from most of the posts here it should be renamed: “If it ain’t 1000 bucks or less I’m gonna wait.”

3000$ is still alot for many people. I'm all for a "Digital Projectors less than $1500" section, but it doesnt exist. So, until it's created, if you don't like the thread, please don't crap on other's decisions.

If you don't have people refusing to pay more than they can afford or are willing, the manufacturers will never be driven to lower their prices.

Well that's me, Since this is my 1st projector and I have no clue how it's gonna look, I'd rather spend 1000 than 3000. I know this is AVS, but not everyone wants to pay a premium for this luxury or get top of the line everything. I don't see how going 720p over 1080p is deferring my pleasure though. whether I spend 400 on a refurbed hd1000 or 20k runco, I still should have a really good and big image (i hope).

Don't be dissuaded by those who are willing to be "early adopters". If they want to throw their cash around and take the hit the following year, more power to them.

I think you are doing the smart thing, especially since this is your first PJ. Get one, set it up, see how you like it, evaluate your source content. Next year, if you are still as enthused bump up to a 1080 for less than half those who are buying 1080p now paid.

3000$ is still alot for many people. I'm all for a "Digital Projectors less than $1500" section, but it doesnt exist. So, until it's created, if you don't like the thread, please don't crap on other's decisions.

If you don't have people refusing to pay more than they can afford or are willing, the manufacturers will never be driven to lower their prices.

It is not a matter of "crapping" on other people's decisions-The thread is entitled "1080p vs 720p projector"--I am stating my case for 1080 Now!

Spending 1 grand or more on the current best priced 1080p is not worth it. Not today anyway. I expect much better and brighter 1080p to come out shortly and a price war to be unleashed. At that time, considerations can change quickly. I don't think what is out there now gives us the best an upgrade to 1080p should be (i.e. considering 2.5 grand and under), so why spend an extra grand or more now to upgrade to better 1080p again shortly? Remember, there are still 1080p shoot outs to come within the next year and by that time a 1080p price/performance king will be known. My wish is to see the prices reduce to warehouse prices in a shorter time period thereafter.

Don't be dissuaded by those who are willing to be "early adopters". If they want to throw their cash around and take the hit the following year, more power to them.

I think you are doing the smart thing, especially since this is your first PJ. Get one, set it up, see how you like it, evaluate your source content. Next year, if you are still as enthused bump up to a 1080 for less than half those who are buying 1080p now paid.

Since we are soon to be in the 4th generation of 1080 projectors that started out at 30K and now down as low as 2100 buying 1080 now hardly qualifies as being a early adopter.

Since we are soon to be in the 4th generation of 1080 projectors that started out at 30K and now down as low as 2100 buying 1080 now hardly qualifies as being a early adopter.

In my opinion, you are still an early adopter if you chose a 1080 front projector. Disregard the fact that mainstream is still working on winning over 720p. When compounded by the incredibly small market share of front projectors as compared to rear projection or direct view sets, this whole segment is a niche.

Since we are soon to be in the 4th generation of 1080 projectors that started out at 30K and now down as low as 2100 buying 1080 now hardly qualifies as being a early adopter.

I guess I can understand why you are thinking or reasoning it this way. Unfortunately, FP is different from other implementations of 1080p. 1080p FP that is worth it is still up there in price, not 2100. That current 2100 1080p FP may not make it on the list of the best in a short while from now. Or it may, but decide if you want to take a 1 grand more chance.

BTW - A lot of us have gave this a lot of thought in the last month or so and some of us decided to get a top quality 720p now and wait for at least another year, if not sooner. The important factor was, will I need to upgrade the 1080p I bought today in a year time because the best 1080p price/performance king is priced very nicely? Just remember though, don't matter what and when you purchase, you will still be asking this question. It is one of those nagging questions in the world we live in.

In my opinion, you are still an early adopter if you chose a 1080 front projector. Disregard the fact that mainstream is still working on winning over P. When compounded by the incredibly small market share of front projectors as compared to rear projection or direct view sets, this whole segment is a niche.

You can't be serious? Sony started shipping the Qualia in March of 2004 and will be introducing their 4th generation product in a few weeks at Cedia. Since 720P is good enough for you I would think that may be indicative that there will be different levels of quality available to buyers. 720P for those who want entry level HD performance and 1080P for those buyer who want a higher quality product. High quality and early adopter are not synonyms.

One bad thing about buying one projector now with the intentions of buying another within 12-18 months is that focus distance and screen size may end up not coordinating. I have a setup now with my second front-projector that I cannot match with one of the current hot sellers. Buying one now makes sense, I hope whatever mount and screen configuration you end up with is compatible with the unit you desire later.

One bad thing about buying one projector now with the intentions of buying another within 12-18 months is that focus distance and screen size may end up not coordinating. I have a setup now with my second front-projector that I cannot match with one of the current hot sellers. Buying one now makes sense, I hope whatever mount and screen configuration you end up with is compatible with the unit you desire later.

Very good point and an important factor. I have decided to toss the measurement standards out the window and go with a screen as big as possble I can fit on my front wall. The problem will be whether the next PJ will have the lumens and throw distance where I have my mount now.

^^^^ thats one of the things that initally dissuaded me from getting a pj initially. i live in an apt and dont see myself buying a house anytime soon (24, no kids, only a gf) so from location to location, ill have to worry about throw distance, screen size and pj placement. That's why a cheap 720p unit is good enough for me. If things go haywire, im out only 800 bucks and not 3k or something. Granted I would love to get a RS1 with a top of the line screen, but hopefully a budget 720p unit will make me happy for a yr or 2.

There will be lower priced 1080p DLP machines in 2 or 3 years but the chip will be of lesser quality smaller a budget chip. :(

Listen to BobL , those of us that have been around FP long enough know that it is not all about resolution , there is much more to image quality than just the number of pixels . Several of the sub $2k 720p projectors will offer a better over-all image than most of the sub $4k 1080p units . The Sharp 12k mkII is but one example of a 720p unit that will best most any entry level 1080p unit . Now if view distance is a concern then that is a very valid reason to pick 1080p as the pixel fill is obviously superior . I am looking to go 1080p myself but not until the price/performance ratio improves and becomes more inline with current 720p offerings . I almost bit the bullet on the HD80 when it was on sale at CC but then once I saw one in action I realized that I was not missing anything with my current PJ other than more pixels ( I want something that truly out performs my current unit on all levels , including the resolution ;) ) .

--- Jason

720P for those who want entry level HD performance and 1080P for those buyer who want a higher quality product. High quality and early adopter are not synonyms.

1080p is not synonymous with quality either. Oh, and by the way, 720p is not synonymous with entry level, to boot.

Good points Jason and Pratticus.

1080p is not synonymous with quality either. Oh, and by the way, 720p is not synonymous with entry level, to boot.

Anyone buying a projector should consider 720P as entry level. HDTV is the norm or mainstream of new purchases and 720P is considered entry level HDTV.

Anyone buying a projector should consider 720P as entry level. HDTV is the norm or mainstream of new purchases and 720P is considered entry level HDTV.

A ridiculous statement indeed. Where can you get native 1080p broadcasts (Dish, DTV, OTA, cable)? I think 720p and 1080i are actually mainstream when discussion mainstream.

A ridiculous statement indeed. Where can you get native 1080p broadcasts (Dish, DTV, OTA, cable)? I think P and 1080i are actually mainstream when discussion mainstream.

I am talking about new purchases. You want a HDTV it is going to be 720 or 1080-The 720 is entry level. Broadcast of 1080i are shown at 1080P on a 1080P display. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both present in 1080P. Many people buy a display to last a few years. 1080P has more staying power and less aggravation in terms installing taking down reinstalling etc etc etc.

I think the recommendation to get a 720p good projector for about a thousand bucks and use it a couple of years until the bulb needs replacing then upgrade to 1080p is a good one.

The price point on 1080p in two or three years should be down to what 720p is now. In January I bought my first projector, a Mitsi HD1000 that has an excellent pic. I really can't imagine the pic being any better but I know that 1080p will be incrementally and so I plan on upgrading to it in a couple of years.

I do think the Optoma HD80 is very tempting right now though and if money was not an object I would probably get that. In my case money is an object of concern.

I think it clear that the majority of posters following this particular thread feel that 1K is the maximum amount one should pay for a projector. There is nothing wrong with that but it obviously is not a universal truth--it is just what feels right for the majority of people posting to this thread. We have many other threads on this forum where people feel completely the opposite and who consider their purchase of a 1080P projector to be money well spent. Both sides have merit and neither is right or wrong.

Could be PP envy, errrrr I mean 1080p envy. :)

No doubt about it though it's great and it has to come at a cost. It's how the companies stay in business. New products better qualities more new customers.

One of the reasons my budget was around 1200-1500 is that I am currently building my HT room and it costs a lot to buy everything from building stage, riser, screen, getting seating, carpet, acoustic treatments, sound etc etc etc.

I think the next time I am in the market for a PJ, these expenses would have already been incurred and the budget for a PJ could go up if it is justified based on what the PJ offers.

I think it clear that the majority of posters following this particular thread feel that 1K is the maximum amount one should pay for a projector. There is nothing wrong with that but it obviously is not a universal truth--it is just what feels right for the majority of people posting to this thread. We have many other threads on this forum where people feel completely the opposite and who consider their purchase of a 1080P projector to be money well spent. Both sides have merit and neither is right or wrong.

Nah, as a matter of fact my first rear-projection DLP was 3500 bucks. And from that, I learned my lesson.

The point is, I am not willing to pay a premium for disposable technology any more. I like where the price points are going and if I stay one step behind the curve, I can get more bang for my buck as those who are on the curve get soaked.

Sure, if you have cash to blow, buy a nice new 1080p for 3k. I can experience 80% (or more) of what you experience for 1k. I like that ratio. :)

You can be perectly happy with a budget projector as long as it's at least 720p. Also as long as it's an Optoma HD70 and not the Mits1000, just kidding! ;) I fought it for years hanging on to XGA before I finally sprung for my first 720p machine.

The fact that we're having this discussion in this forum shows us how far we've come. One year ago someone had to blow close to $10k on 1080p. I gladly 'blew' about $2400 two weeks ago. That got me a free ceiling mount as well. I certainly do not consider 1080p at under $2500 a premium or luxury. It's a freaking good value. But that's just me. Obviously each of us have a different value system so there is really no point in arguing back and forth.

As a matter of fact your 720p picture is only 44.4444% of a 1080p picture. Ok this is a joke. And please no more "resolution is not everything" lecture. We know ... we know. We had the same discussion comparing 480p to 720p. I made my choice based on my own set of criteria. Thank you very much.

The thread title says it all, 1080p vs 720p. There has not been a thread titled 1080p is better than 720p. Many things would be required for that to be the case and as of today, not many are.

Like every thing else in life 1080p has a diminishing return over 720p since it generally cost more. By nature more resolution is better. The ratio to weight one over the other can only be determined by each owners individual wants or requirements.

Having owned both I can say viewing from two screen’s width or less I can easily tell the difference. It’s enough of a difference that more than likely the 1080p projector would have to do something rather badly before I would consider a 720p projector at the same cost.

How much more I would be willing to pay for the increased resolution again is a personal matter based on my unique background and desires. However I would base the decision on the number of hours you plan to view the projector. Let’s say you guess you will use it for a thousand hours before replacing it. Forgetting resell value how much is it worth for you to enjoy the superior image on an hourly basis? Simply multiple your answer times one thousand.

If you want to take resell into account with 1080p becoming the norm the expected larger loss might not actually occur.

Like every thing else in life 1080p has a diminishing return over 720p since it generally cost more. By nature more resolution is better. The ratio to weight one over the other can only be determined by each owners individual wants or requirements.

Having owned both I can say viewing from two screen’s width or less I can easily tell the difference. It’s enough of a difference that more than likely the 1080p projector would have to do something rather badly before I would consider a 720p projector at the same cost.

How much more I would be willing to pay for the increased resolution again is a personal matter based on my unique background and desires. However I would base the decision on the number of hours you plan to view the projector. Let’s say you guess you will use it for a thousand hours before replacing it. Forgetting resell value how much is it worth for you to enjoy the superior image on an hourly basis? Simply multiple your answer times one thousand.

If you want to take resell into account with 1080p becoming the norm the expected larger loss might not actually occur.

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing better than 1080p even on the horizon at this point. So, for the near future, 1080p is the pinnacle. All that matters is, for each individual, when the 1080p hits your acceptable price range.

Given the dramatic drop that I foresee in the very near future, I for one could not justify the extra cash over 720p. Am I foregoing some enjoyment? Maybe, but in my value system, I am not forgoing 1500$ worth.

Yes, agree. No doubt those of us with excellent 720p PJs know we are giving up resolution, is it as Pratticus stated $1500 worth?....I don't think so. My current PJ really does not leave me wanting especially where PQ is concerned.

Yes, agree. No doubt those of us with excellent 720p PJs know we are giving up resolution, is it as Pratticus stated $1500 worth?....I don't think so. My current PJ really does not leave me wanting especially where PQ is concerned.

that's pretty much the crux of my question, is 1080p really worth 1.5-2k more in cost. It seems pretty evenly split down the middle in regards to the ratio. I've been watching a lot of movies since I got a BD/HD player, so I want to make sure that whatever I get I enjoy. I have a 720p/1080i and I cant tell the difference. Granted the sets a lot smaller than a projector would be, but on that TV, I'm very happy with 720p.

Well... there may be something on the horizon that turns all of our projectors into paper weights (1080p included), and that is the possibility of a new lamp technology. There are several new lamp technologies that could come to market at any moment. An illustrative, but by no means exhaustive list, is laser-based and led-based lamps. If either of these come to market, who in their right mind would want a high pressure lamp pj? When this happens, kiss your resale value goodbye. So for me, I opted for a better 720p at a bargain basement price and will wait for the 2nd or 3rd gen 1080p machines that will hopefully offer these new lamp technologies. However, ultimately, it's just a matter of personal choice. If economics were really part of the equation, we would all take the thousands we spend on home theaters and just go to the damn movies... every weekend, and come out with more money in our pockets for it.

that's pretty much the crux of my question, is 1080p really worth 1.5-2k more in cost.

It depends who you ask. Most with 720 say it is not worth but 1080 guy say it is.
A 1080 unit offers better pixel density (picture looks denser) more than sharpness. Still you can see the finer detail. It also allows you to sit closer so you will need less real state and have more people in the room. It also has a longer shelf life hence it will not be obsolete as fast as 720 unit. You will problably will hang on to it longer but not sure. From value stand point it all depends on what your expectations are and the willingness to spend for it.
I own a 720 dpj but have seen 1080p dpj several times and they do look better. Also have a CRT that does 1080i which also looks better than 720p unit.

Don't fool yourself in about 1 week after CEDIA all current model's 1080p or not will be obsolete manufacters have to keep the excitement up to sell product in a year or so the JVC RS1 will be at the $1000 mark and this dicussion will occur all over again with the already announced JVC H100 I think that;s the correct model number. :D

Don't fool yourself in about 1 week after CEDIA all current model's 1080p or not will be obsolete manufacters have to keep the excitement up to sell product in a year or so the JVC RS1 will be at the $1000 mark and this dicussion will occur all over again with the already announced JVC H100 I think that;s the correct model number. :D

QFT.

Don't fool yourself in about 1 week after CEDIA all current model's 1080p or not will be obsolete manufacters have to keep the excitement up to sell product in a year or so the JVC RS1 will be at the $1000 mark and this dicussion will occur all over again with the already announced JVC H100 I think that;s the correct model number. :D

QFT:
Obsolete..spec, i.e., resolution, format etc.
Discountinued... is not obsolete.
RS1 will not be at 1K.

I've been reading through this thread with much interest. I plan on purchasing my first FP soon (unless there is a very good reason to wait a few months after CEDIA), and I have been wrestling with paying the extra $ for 1080p. After reading through a lot of your responses, I'm wondering if I really need it. I've heard a lot of "buy a nicer PQ 720p projector with higher lumens over a $3k 1080 model." Below are my plans/needs. Please tell me what you think.


- 16:9 (49"h x 87"w) 100" diagonal SmX Acoustical Transparent Screen (1.16 gain).
- Non-dedicated room in basement.
- Primary seating distance at 15': back wall (sectional sofa).
- Total light controlled, but don't want a bat-cave. Will watch some TV in dimmed lighting.
- Do I have a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player? No. Will I? Probably not until format war settles a little more.
- Will watch CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX evening HDTV broadcasting (Comcast HD), football games, and DVD's.
- DVD viewing (until format war settles) will be with LG upconverting DVD player.
- Will have an Onkyo 7.1 receiver with 1.3 repeater...if it matters.
- Want to run one HDMI cable to projector: big requirement.
- Ceiling is white suspended ceiling panels: will not paint.
- Projector will be ceiling mounted between 10.5' - 14' from screen.

What has me concerns is all this talk about the low-lumen 1080p's projectors. My AT does not have a big gain, and I don't want all the viewing to be done in the dark, especially during football game parties.

Also, I'm wondering if at my viewing distance (15'), the 1080p will even be noticed over the 720p. There will be some people sitting closer (sectional sofa), just not me.

However, if the prices for the 1080p projectors typically drop after CEDIA (don't know...was not shopping at this time last year), I could be convinced to wait a little and buy one, in order to plan for the future.

I also don't want to buy a 1080p projector now, and find out higher lumen models are two months away....hey, don't we all!

I was planning on the $2600 (after rebates) Panny PT-AE1000U 1080p model, with a reported 1110 lumens. Does this sound like enough for me?

If you think I should go the 720p route, throw some model numbers at me please: ones that you consider have equal PG, higer lumens, great reliability...just not the 1080p resolution.

Thanks sooooo much for any help!
Jason

It depends who you ask. Most with 720 say it is not worth but 1080 guy say it is.
A 1080 unit offers better pixel density (picture looks denser) more than sharpness. Still you can see the finer detail. It also allows you to sit closer so you will need less real state and have more people in the room. It also has a longer shelf life hence it will not be obsolete as fast as 720 unit. You will problably will hang on to it longer but not sure. From value stand point it all depends on what your expectations are and the willingness to spend for it.
I own a 720 dpj but have seen 1080p dpj several times and they do look better. Also have a CRT that does 1080i which also looks better than 720p unit.

well im not really worried about it being obsolete honestly. if cedia comes around and annonces something to revolutionize FP, ill still get a budget 720p projector along with an extra bulb or two and enjoy it for about 2-3 years. im pretty sure itd take at least that long for whatever new tech to be able to get to that pricepoint so its affordable to me

QFT:
Obsolete..spec, i.e., resolution, format etc.
Discountinued... is not obsolete.
RS1 will not be at 1K.

Maybe not but I was just being sarcastic eventually just like all electronics it will take a drastic drop in price and with the way digital projectors are advancing it won't take a decade look at the Infocus 777, Sony Qualia, and many more next year or two years from now all of the current state of the art Digaital PJ's will be old news. :rolleyes: who would think even a month ago you could buy the Marantz VP4001 for a little over a $1000 or the original Samsung 700AE which was $12,000 dollars two years ago which is now the 710AE which one year ago was $4000 would be $900 and one more the Sharp 12000MKII which retailed two years ago for $12,000 which is now under $2000.

So yes the JVC RS1 will eventually run its course and be blown out at a significant discount to make room for the new crop and hopefully much improved new digitals. with the pace at which 1080p is being developed yes it will be obsolete in terms of specs and technology maybe we won't think of it as obsolete but many will who thrive on having the latest and the greatest in this hobby will.

I'll take a great looking obsolete PJ at a good price anyday over a very expensive PJ with the latest and the greatest innovations which gives me maybe 10% improvment. :D heck I still enjoy my obsolete CRT.

Compound this by the fact that, as you move away from the screen, at a certain distance from a given size screen, your eyes cannot resolve a difference between 720 & 1080. Therefore, to take advantage of 1080 content on a 1080 screen, most viewers will sit closer than they would if they were viewing 720 content on a 720 screen.

As mentioned above, 1.3x - 1.5x screen width is the accepted (THX recommended) viewing distance for 720 content. Reduce this to 0.8x - 1.2x for 1080 content.

My personal opinion - this is an absolutely ridiculous way to go about things. Totally arse-about-face, as we say in the UK.

Let's get this right. If you have a 720p PJ you can sit at 1.3-1.5x screen widths.

But if you have a 1080p pj you can resolve more detail, so sit 0.8-1.2x screen widths.

Eh?

What if they introduce 5,000p? Sit with your nose to the screen?

10,000p? Right, get your eyeballs surgically removed and put on extended stalks, so your nose doesn't stop you getting close enough to the screen to see every bit of detail.

In the old days of SD did you know the back wall out so you could sit further away?

Yes?

No!

Try this instead: Do not allow the detail to dictate your seating distance. Instead, sit where you feel comfortable for you. Most people tend to find this is about 1.5x screen widths (but you might be different).

Now if it's in this area, it's pretty clear that 720p will be more than enough. If you're a bit unusual, and you like to sit closer, you might want to get 1080p. But you might also want to consider the cost.

BTW, you'll want to check these threads out first:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

BTW, ask yourself who you want to listen to?

Blind tests carried out with dozens of A/V enthusiasts?

Or some bloke who's just spent thousands on a 1080p projector and would feel a complete mug if he admitted to himself that he'd wasted his money?

Your money - your choice. But these 2 blind tests are the nearest we have to objective opinion on the matter.

Steve W

I've been reading through this thread with much interest. I plan on purchasing my first FP soon (unless there is a very good reason to wait a few months after CEDIA), and I have been wrestling with paying the extra $ for 1080p. After reading through a lot of your responses, I'm wondering if I really need it. I've heard a lot of "buy a nicer PQ 720p projector with higher lumens over a $3k 1080 model." Below are my plans/needs. Please tell me what you think.


- 16:9 (49"h x 87"w) 100" diagonal SmX Acoustical Transparent Screen (1.16 gain).
- Non-dedicated room in basement.
- Primary seating distance at 15': back wall (sectional sofa).
- Total light controlled, but don't want a bat-cave. Will watch some TV in dimmed lighting.
- Do I have a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player? No. Will I? Probably not until format war settles a little more.
- Will watch CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX evening HDTV broadcasting (Comcast HD), football games, and DVD's.
- DVD viewing (until format war settles) will be with LG upconverting DVD player.
- Will have an Onkyo 7.1 receiver with 1.3 repeater...if it matters.
- Want to run one HDMI cable to projector: big requirement.
- Ceiling is white suspended ceiling panels: will not paint.
- Projector will be ceiling mounted between 10.5' - 14' from screen.

What has me concerns is all this talk about the low-lumen 1080p's projectors. My AT does not have a big gain, and I don't want all the viewing to be done in the dark, especially during football game parties.

Also, I'm wondering if at my viewing distance (15'), the 1080p will even be noticed over the 720p. There will be some people sitting closer (sectional sofa), just not me.

However, if the prices for the 1080p projectors typically drop after CEDIA (don't know...was not shopping at this time last year), I could be convinced to wait a little and buy one, in order to plan for the future.

I also don't want to buy a 1080p projector now, and find out higher lumen models are two months away....hey, don't we all!

I was planning on the $2600 (after rebates) Panny PT-AE1000U 1080p model, with a reported 1110 lumens. Does this sound like enough for me?

If you think I should go the 720p route, throw some model numbers at me please: ones that you consider have equal PG, higer lumens, great reliability...just not the 1080p resolution.

Thanks sooooo much for any help!
Jason

No matter how many lumens your projector is the picture will look better in the dark. Your screen is not that big so as long as there is no light bearing down on your screen from extraneous sources you will have a watchable picture with just about any projector. The questions you have re 1080 vs 720 can only be answered by you unless you are the type that lets other people direct their lives and decisions. Although there is a price difference it is not so vast that you shouldn't get what you want. If you want to be fiddlin and diddlin-- buying and selling, taking down your sytem, try to sell it and reinstalling and trying to 2nd guess the market buy a 720. If you want to buy something now, allow yourself to be satisfied and not look back then buy 1080 and be done with it.

Unless you are extremely RBE sensitive, then strongly consider the Marantz VP4001 or the Sharp near equivalent Z3000. At slightly over 2x seating distance, you will be extremely hard pressed to notice any difference in resolution. You will, however, notice off colors, chromatic aberration, a soft image, and poor black levels. The Marantz and its allegedly ever so slightly less awesome Sharp haver excellent color accuracy, an incredibly sharp image due to very good optics, little if any chromatic aberration, and excellent black levels.

Also, their lumens ratings are very accurate. You really can get about 1200 lumens when you open up the iris, without sacrificing colors all that much. To get the same lumens on the current crop of 1080p pj's in your price range, well you either won't get it or you will get it at a signicant sacrifice to color accuracy. With a true 1200 lumens, you can watch sports with some ambient light. For movies, clamp down the iris and go into high contrast mode.

However, even more important, is that you can get either of these projectors for a song, and you don't even have to sing on key. Buy a 720p now, and in 6 months you can get an additional 1080p for the combined price of what you would pay for the same 1080 now (although you may decide there is no reason to do so). What would you need with 2 projectors you ask? Trust me, you will find either a use or a buyer.

Be sure to check the Marantz website on placement. I think it will work based on your description, but there is no lens shift and a small zoom range, so you want to check to be sure.

The only downside is the fan is not the quietest, but that can be fixed with a hushbox, and besides, it is only noticeable when there is no audio in what you are watching.

DISCLAIMER. The info contained in this post is all gleaned from the posts of others. I do not have my Marantz... yet. It is in the warehouse getting ready to be shipped as I type this. I was going to go 1080p myself, but I could not pass up the deal on the Marantz. Furthermore, it is very rare the the resolution bothers me on my current 720p (the Mits HC3000), but I do notice and am bothered by chromatic aberration and color inaccuracy quite a bit. The occasional RBE also bugs me, so I'm hoping a 5x color wheel will reduce that from the 4x of the Mits.

Buy a 720p now, and in 6 months you can get an additional 1080p for the combined price of what you would pay for the same 1080 now (although you may decide there is no reason to do so). What would you need with 2 projectors you ask? Trust me, you will find either a use or a buyer.

You know, I have looked at this issue in many different ways, but never like this. You are correct, get a great 720p now, wait a few months and get a much better 1080p than is available today combined for the price you will be paying for one of the inadequate lumens 1080p available today.

A falling market cuts both ways--if the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are suggesting, then new 720P projectors will drop to $500 which means your used 720P projector with 1000 hours on it will be worth practically nothing.

A falling market cuts both ways--if the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are suggesting, then new 720P projectors will drop to $500 which means your used 720P projector with 1000 hours on it will be worth practically nothing.

ahh...but you will still have it ;)

ahh...but you will still have it ;)

Yes it would be a nice 1K doorstop.

Yes it would be a nice 1K doorstop.

should you choose to do that with it, I guess it can work for that purpose also depending on what 720p you bought ;)

What if they introduce 5,000p? Sit with your nose to the screen?

10,000p? Right, get your eyeballs surgically removed and put on extended stalks, so your nose doesn't stop you getting close enough to the screen to see every bit of detail.

5,000p is not discernable by the human eye at a distance from which you can comfortably watch the entire image.

Obviously, there will be a balance struck between nearest seating distance/size of screen/pixel density. 1080p is approaching that limit for even those with better than 20/20 vision.

I'm, not advocating sitting 1 inch from the screen. Come on. Although each person's perferences and physical limitations of sight will dictate what is comfortable, THX and many others have done extensive studies to provide the AVERAGE viewer with AVERAGE distances to satisfy the MAJORITY of viewers.

A falling market cuts both ways--if the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are suggesting, then new 720P projectors will drop to $500 which means your used 720P projector with 1000 hours on it will be worth practically nothing.

Ahh, but the fact is that my 720p has already depreciated by a fair margin even before I bought it, which is why I could get it at 1k. Your 1080p is still in heavy depreciation.

And as far as your door stop analogy - both will be door stops in 1-2 years. It just depends how much yuo wanted to pay for your door stop: 1k or 3k.

if the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are suggesting,

Please note, the above should be reworded to:
when the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are correctly suggesting,

Please note, top quality 12K PJ have sold for 2K in a short while. The current crop of 1080p are not the top quality 1080p and will therefore become door stops at a faster rate.

Too bad we can't get a demo of most of these models like with tvs at the store.

That's why this process of choosing is so maddening. These are expensive choices.

I'm with ya...irritating, I'd never buy anything else sight unseen, why a projector?

Please note, the above should be reworded to:
when the 1080P projectors drop to 1K as many posters are correctly suggesting,

Please note, top quality 12K PJ have sold for 2K in a short while. The current crop of 1080p are not the top quality 1080p and will therefore become door stops at a faster rate.

The current crop of 1080P projectors produce an outstanding picture and are the best quality 1080P projectors available to buy. If someone were to wait a year until 1080P dropped to 1K should we then say oh no don't buy now if you wait another year it will be only $500.

ahh...but you will still have it ;)

Slowly changing out all your TVs to pj may become a reality. I have plans to install an old X1 in my children's play room for gaming etc. Sure glad I didn't chuck it as the bulb was still functional and my X3 will mount in it's place when I finally upgrade to 1080p (which I too am going to wait for 6-9 months to see how technology and prices change.)

...This section of the forum is known as Digital Projectors under 3000 USD MSRP but judging from most of the posts here it should be renamed: “If it ain’t 1000 bucks or less I’m gonna wait.”

Hey, lets start one like that...

The current crop of 1080P projectors produce an outstanding picture and are the best quality 1080P projectors available to buy. If someone were to wait a year until 1080P dropped to 1K should we then say oh no don't buy now if you wait another year it will be only $500.

yep, good point, no disagreement here. I waited until a month ago to get what I think was a great price for a great 720p. Many people had 720p over a year before that. To me it comes down to old Kenny Rodgers. You got to know when to hold em. There is a point I will drop some coins on a 1080p, when I think the price/performance ratio justifies it. For me, it is not now. What makes it even more difficult is as others have stated, we just cannot go in to a box store and see these things. We need to rely mostly on worthwhile opinions and shootouts.

QFT:
Obsolete..spec, i.e., resolution, format etc.
Discountinued... is not obsolete.
RS1 will not be at 1K.

That's what they said about the Sharp XV-Z12000mkII...it would never be affordable...

"That's what they said about the Sharp XV-Z12000mkII"

good point, although there is no higher resolution that will be pushing down 1080p prices for a while.

"That's what they said about the Sharp XV-Z12000mkII"

good point, although there is no higher resolution that will be pushing down 1080p prices for a while.

Although 1080p have not started out at 12K. The RS1 (if that is the hands down best now) is less than 5K and AVS seems to have extra stock so prices should drop in a few months. The HD80 if that is 2nd best now, is already at 2K (with discounts)

The current crop of 1080P projectors produce an outstanding picture and are the best quality 1080P projectors available to buy.

I disagree. Current LCD/DLP 1080p projectors still suffer from anomalies not found on theater film.

For LCD, I'm talking about poor CR (~1000:1 native). For DLP, I'm talking about RBE, for those sensitive.

The first 1080p that seems to indeed have no weaknesses, is the new Epson TW2000.

There is a lot yet to come in 1080p. I am more than happy to wait it out. Holdin 'em like the gambler :-)

BTW, you'll want to check these threads out first:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

BTW, ask yourself who you want to listen to?

Blind tests carried out with dozens of A/V enthusiasts?

Or some bloke who's just spent thousands on a 1080p projector and would feel a complete mug if he admitted to himself that he'd wasted his money?

Your money - your choice. But these 2 blind tests are the nearest we have to objective opinion on the matter.

Steve W

Hmmm, now these 2 threads are very interesting. Would any of the 1080p advocates care to comment on this? In summary, an A/B comparison of HD sources was done on a marantz 720 and 1080p projector and the end results were resolution didn't really matter at all, even on a 130" screen at 13ft back, the viewers couldn't tell the difference between the two. The OP of the thread said that even at 6.5ft back, it wasn't easy to tell the difference between the two

Thanks for posting this Pecker, as this is probably the closest I'll ever get to doing an A/B comparison for myself in a long time.

I think this pretty much answers my question on this subject. Now I just have to decide whether I should order it tomorrow for my birthday or not. I've been planning on getting the HD1000/HC1500 or the HD70 since those seem to be regarded as the best budget projectors available

Hmmm, now these 2 threads are very interesting. Would any of the 1080p advocates care to comment on this? In summary, an A/B comparison of HD sources was done on a marantz 720 and 1080p projector and the end results were resolution didn't really matter at all, even on a 130" screen at 13ft back, the viewers couldn't tell the difference between the two. The OP of the thread said that even at 6.5ft back, it wasn't easy to tell the difference between the two

Thanks for posting this Pecker, as this is probably the closest I'll ever get to doing an A/B comparison for myself in a long time.

I think this pretty much answers my question on this subject. Now I just have to decide whether I should order it tomorrow for my birthday or not. I've been planning on getting the HD1000/HC1500 or the HD70 since those seem to be regarded as the best budget projectors available

If you want to do a thorough search of posts along this line, instead of relying on just one thread I think you would find more people saying they can tell the difference. I certainly can at 1.7X the width of my screen and I have directly compared 720P projectors with 1080P projectors.

In summary, an A/B comparison of HD sources was done on a marantz 720 and 1080p projector and the end results were resolution didn't really matter at all, even on a 130" screen at 13ft back, the viewers couldn't tell the difference between the two

Well, at least some can't see a difference between 1080p and 720p, but still are willing to pay a lot more money for 1080p.

I do it for the following reasons:
1. Better contrast with 1080p units (LCDs).
2. Less screen door with 1080p units.
3. A 1080p unit allows me to do CIH in software (1920x817 for 2.35:1 films, and 1446x817 for 1.77:1 material).

Well, at least some can't see a difference between 1080p and 720p, but still are willing to pay a lot more money for 1080p.

I do it for the following reasons:
1. Better contrast with 1080p units (LCDs).
2. Less screen door with 1080p units.
3. A 1080p unit allows me to do CIH in software (1920x817 for 2.35:1 films, and 1446x817 for 1.77:1 material).

As I have stated before all things being equal between 2 projectors 1 that is 720P and the other is 1080P, (the BenQ PE8720 and the BenQ W10000 comes to mind) the viewer is not going to see an in your face difference between the 2 projectors unless they are viewing at 1.7X the screen width or less. But it is the little things, the nuances the fine details that aren't immediately perceived but that accumulate in your viewing experience over a period of time that suddenly add up and you say to yourself OMG this really is different and this really is special. Let's not kid ourselves, 1080P is better than 720P-it really is a matter of whether you want to pay for it now or defer your experience of full HD to sometime in the future.

Let's not kid ourselves, 1080P is better than 720P

Let's not kid ourselves to convince ourselves.

It certainly has more resolution, however in blind tests some people cannot tell the difference.

Let's not kid ourselves to convince ourselves.

It certainly has more resolution, however in blind tests some people cannot tell the difference.

Some people cannot see the difference I agree.
For a seasoned viewer the difference is there. :)

The problem is that all things other than resolution are not necessarily equal. Does a 1080p pj with a crap lens, bad chromatic aberration, weak black levels, and a cheap processor really show a better picture than a former high end 720p that has a great lens, no chromatic aberration, very good black levels, and a better processor? Almost certainly not. And believe it or not, this scenario does indeed exist.

(I'm thinking of the Marantz S4 as the 720p in this comparison)

Some people cannot see the difference I agree.
For a seasoned viewer the difference is there. :)

Be careful that you are enjoying what you are looking at and not trying to look for pixels that aren't there.

If you want to do a thorough search of posts along this line, instead of relying on just one thread I think you would find more people saying they can tell the difference. I certainly can at 1.7X the width of my screen and I have directly compared 720P projectors with 1080P projectors.

Well I've searched on this subject, but not in regards to projectors, but for TVs. And everything I've read has always stated 1080p is really only needed for 50-60"+ displays. So far Pecker is the only one to offer any proof to backup his claim that 1080p isn't necessarily better than 720p for the projector. Obviously you feel differently, so if you can provide a link to a thread or reputable A/V site where a test was done comparing the two, I'd definately read it. But as of right now, the threads Pecker linked to is pretty clear on the tests that were done that resolution really don't mean that much, and definately isn't worth the premium of 1080p models asfar as I see it.

So far none of the 1080p proponents have provided any proof that the added resolution somehow makes the image better. So if you have any please share.

Thanks

I suppose in the end it's personal preference, as many posters have stated. I do not have a light-controlled room, and the fact that 720p have higher lamp output was an important factor. I settled for the AX100, and never felt sorry - the image quality is very good on a 110" screen from 12f.

One more thing - to me the most important part is the quality of the source material. I started with an Oppo DVD upconverting to either 720 or 1080p, and thought 1080p looked better - strangely enough, as 720 is native resolution for the projector. I then got the second generation Samsung BluRay (BDP1200). The latter generates a substantially better image starting from the same standard DVD - I suppose the Reon chip is to blame for that.

My suggestion:
- consider what you can afford
- if you don't have light control, consider higher lamp output
- don't be cheap with your sound system - no matter how good the image, without the sound you don't get the same experience
- whatever you buy, you'll be happy, and having many more friends, as I personally experience

Good luck

Well I've searched on this subject, but not in regards to projectors, but for TVs. And everything I've read has always stated 1080p is really only needed for 50-60"+ displays. So far Pecker is the only one to offer any proof to backup his claim that 1080p isn't necessarily better than 720p for the projector. Obviously you feel differently, so if you can provide a link to a thread or reputable A/V site where a test was done comparing the two, I'd definately read it. But as of right now, the threads Pecker linked to is pretty clear on the tests that were done that resolution really don't mean that much, and definately isn't worth the premium of 1080p models asfar as I see it.

So far none of the 1080p proponents have provided any proof that the added resolution somehow makes the image better. So if you have any please share.

Thanks


Here you go:

http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Following posting this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892987&highlight=John+Clark

and some more research and pondering, I honestly "thought" I finally knew which way I was going in regards to 720/1080, UNTIL I read this thread. So many, and such compelling arguments in both regards that I'm now no longer sure what I should do :eek:

Oh well, after the reports come in from Cedia next week, I will be buying "something", one way or the other.


John

Here you go:

http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Although I didn't read the article in its entirety (too tired) glancing over seems that all of his facts seem to be true on papaer, but may not translate into real world performance. What I was looking for is more along the lines of what Pecker shared, kinda like a taste test if you will. On paper and technically 1080p does have many benefits, but I'd still like to see some sort of data where real everyday people are involved. Bale's article kinda reminds of me IT benchmarks for performance. At "x" GHz you'll score "y" on a specific benchmark test, but real world applications, you'd see no discernable difference in speed.

Thanks for sharing the link though. I'll read over it in the morning along with the cnet article that this article was in response to.

The problem with Carton Bale's information as I have come to find out is exactly as bdizzle has stated. Lots of theory. I have decided to toss his theories out the window since many people over in the theater construction thread tend to disagree on the hard limits of the standards which his analysis uses.

Give me real world experiences or give me nothing.

Some people cannot see the difference I agree.
For a seasoned viewer the difference is there. :)

Believe me, there were plenty of seasoned viewers at these 2 tests.

In the first there were, I think, about 40 people. Only 1 person claimed to spot an improvement with 1080p, and he was one of the 2 people who knew which was which.

I'm sure he was being honest, but that in itself shows just how suggestable the human mind is.

Remember, the 2 tests were carried out using very good kit, in the second test both PJs were calibrated to D65.

And both tests used side-by-side images, and projectors which were all but identical, save for their resolution.




Here you go:

http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/




This graph is useful, but only in showing the absolute maximum that can ever possibly be perceived by the human eye.

The graph is based on test done on the human eye. The observer is shown side-by-side fized pixels (one black & one white), and the observer must say at what distance/pixel size the difference can be seen.

The problem is that most of the films we watch (well, most of the films I watch), are not made up of pixels fixed in place which are black against white. Most are shades of grey, and indeed shades of millions of different colours.

Oh, and more often then not they're moving quite quickly - certainly not on/off for a few seconds at a time.

Given the nature of the tests, no one should expect to see anything like as much detail as is suggested in that graph.

Steve W

For those who feel that 720P=1080P, and this is not meant as a joke or a put down--I would suggest a visit to your opthamologist. Yes if your vision is not capable of discerning any difference then truly 720P=1080P for you. The same can be said for audio--many men have serious hearing deficiencies that could reduce the benefit of expensive wide frequency speakers, especially in the upper limits. We see this all the time in people's posts-they'll post I am sitting 1.3X away from my Z2 and there is no screendoor. You look at the post and say this guy must be blind. Clearly people who can't see screendoor at distances like this would not be able to discern any difference between 720P and 1080P. For me at 1.7X 1080P makes for a significantly better picture. I don't see much in the way of buyer's remorse threads started by 1080 owners who upgraded from 720P. If there was no difference this board would be full of threads expressing regret for their 1080P purchase.

For those who feel that 720P=1080P, and this is not meant as a joke or a put down--I would suggest a visit to your opthamologist. Yes if your vision is not capable of discerning any difference then truly 720P=1080P for you. The same can be said for audio--many men have serious hearing deficiencies that could reduce the benefit of expensive wide frequency speakers, especially in the upper limits. We see this all the time in people's posts-they'll post I am sitting 1.3X away from my Z2 and there is no screendoor. You look at the post and say this guy must be blind. Clearly people who can't see screendoor at distances like this would not be able to discern any difference between 720P and 1080P. For me at 1.7X 1080P makes for a significantly better picture. I don't see much in the way of buyer's remorse threads started by 1080 owners who upgraded from 720P. If there was no difference this board would be full of threads expressing regret for their 1080P purchase.



That's deeply, deeply arrogant and insulting to several people who've posted here, and to every single one of the people who took part in those tests to which I linked.

You are suggesting that every person who took part in the tests has defective vision.

Isn't it far, far more likely that, having spent a large amount of cash on a 1080p projector, many people are experiencing a placebo effect?

Steve W

Here are some images presented by Art at www.projectorreviews.com
Text and images below are from Art's article.


For your consideration, here is an image from the "soft" Panasonic PT-AE1000u 1080p projector, and below it the same image produced from the Sanyo PLV-Z5.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/PT-AE1000u_new_PhantomNecklace.jpg (http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/PT-AE1000u_new_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklace.jpg (http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg)





Perhaps, better still, first the BenQ W10000 (1080p) then the Sharp XV-Z3000 (720p)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/BenQ_W10000_Aeon_Redhead.jpg (http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/BenQ_W10000_Aeon_RedheadLarge.jpg)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/Images-projectors-Q1-07/XV-Z3000_Aeon_Redhead.jpg (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Images-projectors-Q1-07/XV-Z3000_Aeon_RedheadLarge.jpg)


Click on the images above for larger versions easier to see the differences. Note the detail in the hair, and the sharpness, and gleam in her eyes, on these HD-DVD images from Aeon Flux.

Here is the link to the actual article:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/advice/1080p_vs_720p_projectors/imagequality.asp

That's deeply, deeply arrogant and insulting to several people who've posted here, and to every single one of the people who took part in those tests to which I linked.

You are suggesting that every person who took part in the tests has defective vision.

Isn't it far, far more likely that, having spent a large amount of cash on a 1080p projector, many people are experiencing a placebo effect?

Steve W

I am not going to apologize for a post that points out factual information regarding visual acuity and hearing capabilities. If you think everyone can hear and see the same you are sadly mistaken.

But in each of those instances we have a 720p projector which is completely different to the 1080p projector, unlike the Greek tests.

As an example, in the first of those comparisons we have a $3.5k Panasonic v a sub-$1k Sanyo. How much of the difference in price was the difference between the 1080p chip and the 720p chip? How much on the lamp? Processing? Optics?

This is a completely invalid comparison.

The Greek tests used projectors which were all but identical, aside from the resolution.

And you ignore the not inconsiderable fact that the site to which you link lives and dies on the revenue it receives from advertising companies who all want us to believe 1080p is better than 720p.

Sorry, but I can't imagine a less relevant response to the two blind tests.

Steve W

But in each of those instances we have a 720p projector which is completely different to the 1080p projector, unlike the Greek tests.

As an example, in the first of those comparisons we have a $3.5k Panasonic v a sub-$1k Sanyo. How much of the difference in price was the difference between the 1080p chip and the 720p chip? How much on the lamp? Processing? Optics?

This is a completely invalid comparison.

The Greek tests used projectors which were all but identical, aside from the resolution.

And you ignore the not inconsiderable fact that the site to which you link lives and dies on the revenue it receives from advertising companies who all want us to believe 1080p is better than 720p.

Sorry, but I can't imagine a less relevant response to the two blind tests.

Steve W

The Panasonic 1080 was reviewed at the time as being the softest 1080 projector while the Z5, while cheap, has been reviewed as one of the sharpest 720P projectors. That makes his comparison even a stronger case for the superiority of 1080P.

Those screenshot comparisons really does not show me any differences between 720p and 1080p. It shows differences in the calibration of the PJs. First off, that Z5 is sharper than that Panny smoothscreen nonsense and would definitely favor the Z5.

The second photo shows a lot of calibration and brightness issues. Look at the background, the Sharp is showing more detail and the BenQ most parts are darker.

What you have proven is that 720p and 1080p is NOT what makes the difference, but rather what Steve said and differences in calibration, camera exposure, brightness setting in making an identical setup.

I don't see any advantage of the 1080p models in what you have posted.

Those screenshot comparisons really does not show me any differences between 720p and 1080p. It shows differences in the calibration of the PJs. First off, that Z5 is sharper than that Panny smoothscreen nonsense and would definitely favor the Z5.

The second photo shows a lot of calibration and brightness issues. Look at the background, the Sharp is showing more detail and the BenQ most parts are darker.

What you have proven is that 720p and 1080p is NOT what makes the difference, but rather what Steve said and differences in calibration, camera exposure, brightness setting in making an identical setup.

I don't see any advantage of the 1080p models in what you have posted.

I think your post illustrates how profoundly people's vision varies.

While we are at it, here is some XV-Z3000 images so not to let the one above give the wrong impression:

http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/admin/webftp/p_images/sharp/z3000_4.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/admin/webftp/p_images/sharp/z3000_5.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/admin/webftp/p_images/sharp/z3000_6.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/admin/webftp/p_images/sharp/z3000_7.jpg
http://avplaza.co.kr/shop/admin/webftp/p_images/sharp/z3000_8.jpg

If your 1080p is costs thousands more and you think it is better, you are definitely suffering from a placebo effect.

If your 1080p is costs thousands more and you think it is better, you are definitely suffering from a placebo effect.


First of all I still have a 720P projector, a Samsung 710 known to have one of the most detailed and sharp pictures for a 720P projector as long as it is actually working(I am on my 3rd), but I have had in my home both a Epson Pro Cinema 1080 and a JVC DLA-RS1. I have compared the pictures using HD-DVD source and while the Samsung is close you can clearly see the resolution advantages of the 1080P projectors. I am sitting at 1.7x from a 88" diagonal Vutec Silverstar which is fairly close. If I was sitting 2X or more I think the difference would be harder if not impossible to see. Also the Silverstar is capable of resolving fine detail that an ordinary white screen cannot so the differences are easier to pick out.

Also the Silverstar is capable of resolving fine detail that an ordinary white screen cannot so the differences are easier to pick out.

And that may be true and therefore giving your setup you may benefit more from the increase resolution. If the majority of people cannot see these difference until looking for it with strained eyes in a side-by-side, then there is no point for them to need 1080p just for resolution.

Now when 1080p does come out with added features and top quality optics, processors, scalers etc, then these people may have more of a reason.

Realistically, even my 4805 still commands a WOW factor in HDTV and using a pixel mapped D1 to all who see it. My Marantz same thing and I can buy both today for less than the entry levels 1080p out there.

And that may be true and therefore giving your setup you may benefit more from the increase resolution. If the majority of people cannot see these difference until looking for it with strained eyes in a side-by-side, then there is no point for them to need 1080p just for resolution.

Now when 1080p does come out with added features and top quality optics, processors, scalers etc, then these people may have more of a reason.

Realistically, even my 4805 still commands a WOW factor in HDTV and using a pixel mapped D1 to all who see it. My Marantz same thing and I can buy both today for less than the entry levels 1080p out there.

I totally agree that for performance received per dollar spent 720P is superior. However this has always been true with high end equipment versus the bang for your buck models--you do pay a premium for that extra performance, but the performance is still there and if you want you pay. Even if 1080P drops to 1K, there will still be other projectors for more money that provide better performance.

Please note, I have never stated that 720p = 1080p. I can see screendoor from my front row on my present 720p projector (if I wear my glasses, which give me better than 20/20). I cannot see screendoor if I either do not wear my glass (20/30 vision then) or wear my glasses and sit in the 2nd row. I prefer to sit in the 2nd row generally (especially for 16:9 content), although I am not then positioned perfectly for the sound. Nevertheless, I would be able to benefit from 1080p from my front row. However, as I usually sit in the backrow, the 720p Marantz was too good of a deal to pass up. The combination of better optics, better black levels, and accurate colors outweighed the resolution issue to me. If I could afford a Marantz 11S1 and get both these features and 1080p, I would have. But that is not presently an option. So when forced to choose, for me it made more sense to go with the most I could get for a very little investment.

That said, I do believe that 1080p provides a real world benefit. It is simply a matter of value. Does the benefit justify the cost. For me the extra cost would have been about $1000 and one or more of black levels, optics, and accurate colors. I was very close to getting the Benq W9000, but I think that I would have been disappointed in black levels. I may ultimately get it at some point, and will definitely get a 1080p pj at some point, just not today.

One last point. When properly implemented, if both the pj and source can do 1080p by 24 fps, then I would say that there is likely a material difference worth strong consideration. Judder bothers me greatly, and if between the pj and the source one can eliminate judder, then all other things being equal, a $1,000 price premium would well be worth it. The problem for me was that all other things still were not quite equal.

Following posting this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892987&highlight=John+Clark

and some more research and pondering, I honestly "thought" I finally knew which way I was going in regards to 720/1080, UNTIL I read this thread. So many, and such compelling arguments in both regards that I'm now no longer sure what I should do :eek:

Oh well, after the reports come in from Cedia next week, I will be buying "something", one way or the other.


John

Yeah I know, for every article that says 1080p is needed and slap on the "Full HD" marketting slogan, there's another site saying that 720p really doesn't make a discernable difference in image quality. I'm still going to get a 720p projector, but this thread is making me question whether I should get a budget pj like the hd1000 or hd70 or step up to the marantz 4001 for almost 2x the price.

Yeah I know, for every article that says 1080p is needed and slap on the "Full HD" marketting slogan, there's another site saying that 720p really doesn't make a discernable difference in image quality. I'm still going to get a 720p projector, but this thread is making me question whether I should get a budget pj like the hd1000 or hd70 or step up to the marantz 4001 for almost 2x the price.

The HD1000 or H70 will give you a pretty good picture but not thrilling or not stunning. The Marantz will give you both thrilling and stunning. You could also get the Samsung SP-H710AE for around the the same price as the HD1000/H70 and have a much better picture

This is an interesting debate.

For those who need to go with LCD for lens shift capabilities and because of rainbow sensitivity, which high-end 720p projector would you recommend (if there’s any)?

There doesn’t seem to be any LCD equivalent to the Marantz (i.e. an older 720p LCD high-end model that would provide a better picture than the new crop of 1080p LCDs for the same price or less). Would LCOS technology provide such a model?

If I were to buy a DLP, I would buy the Marantz in a heartbeat without any buyer's remorse.

I like the Epson Pro Cinema 810 in 720P LCD. It is very bright, can support a large screen and it has excellent build quality and reliability.

The HD1000 or H70 will give you a pretty good picture but not thrilling or not stunning. The Marantz will give you both thrilling and stunning. You could also get the Samsung SP-H710AE for around the the same price as the HD1000/H70 and have a much better picture

As a budget-minded HD1000u owner, I find it both thrilling and stunning, and it's my third projector. Probably less thrilling next to the Marantz, but as many have stated, it's sure not half as thrilling. I recently spent 3 months away from my projector setup and during that time I viewed mostly on a 52" 1080p DLP rear projection. It cemented in my mind the fact that I will eventually enthusiastically upgrade to 1080p, once it hits the magic price/performance mark (which for me is $1k).

There is no doubt that, for the budget-minded or quick-upgrader (I'm both) spending a 2x (really more like 3x, $800 HD1000 vs $2400 HD80) makes only sense if money's no object, you're a hard-core videophile, or you spent $20k in your theater and don't want a disproportionately cheap main display (each of these assume you're watching lots of 1080 material, if SD-DVD is your bread and butter for your theater then 720p is the best choice by far).

I feel 720p is a spectacular comparable happy medium. I've watched lots of HD-DVDs (around 25 on my 720p projector and another 10 on the 1080P (although it was 1080i from an A2)) and also have recently acquired LOTS of 720p .mkv HD-DVD/BRD encodes. Those downloads are 90% as good on either display, despite being squeezed down to 4.3gb and only running vanilla Dolby Digital. Why do I mention this? Because 720p is still 3x the resolution of SD DVD and going up to 6x doesn't make much difference in my careful observation.

We'll all argue over which 1080p is the best value in 2-3 years, but for now the 'buy a $1k 1080p in 2 years' argument is very compelling for me and many like me.

The HD1000 or H70 will give you a pretty good picture but not thrilling or not stunning. The Marantz will give you both thrilling and stunning. You could also get the Samsung SP-H710AE for around the the same price as the HD1000/H70 and have a much better picture

looking up the samsung unit, it seems to have some pretty bad cq issues. i already have a xbox 360, so ive had my fill of electronics w/ terrible support and shoddy hardware. the marantz seems like its one of the best 720p units, but the short throw is kinda bothering me

As a budget-minded HD1000u owner, I find it both thrilling and stunning, and it's my third projector. Probably less thrilling next to the Marantz, but as many have stated, it's sure not half as thrilling. I recently spent 3 months away from my projector setup and during that time I viewed mostly on a 52" 1080p DLP rear projection. It cemented in my mind the fact that I will eventually enthusiastically upgrade to 1080p, once it hits the magic price/performance mark (which for me is $1k).

There is no doubt that, for the budget-minded or quick-upgrader (I'm both) spending a 2x (really more like 3x, $800 HD1000 vs $2400 HD80) makes only sense if money's no object, you're a hard-core videophile, or you spent $20k in your theater and don't want a disproportionately cheap main display (each of these assume you're watching lots of 1080 material, if SD-DVD is your bread and butter for your theater then 720p is the best choice by far).

I feel 720p is a spectacular comparable happy medium. I've watched lots of HD-DVDs (around 25 on my 720p projector and another 10 on the 1080P (although it was 1080i from an A2)) and also have recently acquired LOTS of 720p .mkv HD-DVD/BRD encodes. Those downloads are 90% as good on either display, despite being squeezed down to 4.3gb and only running vanilla Dolby Digital. Why do I mention this? Because 720p is still 3x the resolution of SD DVD and going up to 6x doesn't make much difference in my careful observation.

We'll all argue over which 1080p is the best value in 2-3 years, but for now the 'buy a $1k 1080p in 2 years' argument is very compelling for me and many like me.

good to hear that. as long as it looks as good as my samsung lcd (which im not very thrilled btw) i think ill be happy w/ the mits or optoma

looking up the samsung unit, it seems to have some pretty bad cq issues. i already have a xbox 360, so ive had my fill of electronics w/ terrible support and shoddy hardware. the marantz seems like its one of the best 720p units, but the short throw is kinda bothering me



good to hear that. as long as it looks as good as my samsung lcd (which im not very thrilled btw) i think ill be happy w/ the mits or optoma

If you are not happy with your Samsung LCD why would be satisfied with a projector with equal performance. The Samsung problems seem to behind them so that projector is an amazing bargain as is the Marantz. We are talking about a huge difference in picture quality between the Mits/Optoma vs the Samsung/Marantz. If you like movies that have a lot of dark scenes the Marantz or the Samsung will be dramatically better.

The HD1000 or H70 will give you a pretty good picture but not thrilling or not stunning.
Another HD1000 owner here, who, with the right SOURCE material, is very impressed and pleased by its image. Perhaps my standards are not high enough though.

I've seen the Marantz $20K 11S1 as demoed by Kevin Collins for an hour or so in the "Tour" truck last fall. It was VERY nice, but I was neither "thrilled" nor "stunned" by it. Without a side-by-side comparison, I'd be hard pressed to say that the Marantz was dramatically better than the lowly HD1000. The improvement is grossly disproportionate to the price differential.

If you are not happy with your Samsung LCD why would be satisfied with a projector with equal performance. The Samsung problems seem to behind them so that projector is an amazing bargain as is the Marantz. We are talking about a huge difference in picture quality between the Mits/Optoma vs the Samsung/Marantz. If you like movies that have a lot of dark scenes the Marantz or the Samsung will be dramatically better.

I agree totally I just purchased the Samsung 710AE and coming from a CRT setup was not dissapointed what most of these guys are forgetting is just two years ago the 700AE was $12,000 dollars which was the older model when the 710AE came out about 1 year ago it was $4000 so you cannot compare quality of a PJ that started out at $1000 to one that is just being blown out with far,far better built and quailty its not even close. The sammy is a killer deal and it has lens shift which was very important to me.

The problem most will have with the Sammy is that it just does not have the blacks many people like. If you are not concerned with that then the Sammy is one heck of a deal, assuming it does not break at 500 hours.

The problem most will have with the Sammy is that it just does not have the blacks many people like. If you are not concerned with that then the Sammy is one heck of a deal, assuming it does not break at 500 hours.

I am sure the Marantz has better blacks than the Sammy but both of these projectors are in a totally difference class than the Optoma/Mits. Specifically the lens quality and the rendering shadow detail is much improved. I have had 3 Samsungs since Jan. The first was DOA, the 2nd lasted about 125 hours and died and I wasn't happy with the blacks. The 3rd seemed like it was a totally difference projector. It has amazing blacks and is closing in on 500 hours without a hiccup. I watched the HD-DVD version of 300 on a RS1 then on the Sammy and black level was close to the RS1 which was very surprising. There must be some variations in the units or maybe they did some changes in the projector. In Projector Centrals review they described the Sammy's blacks as inky blacks and that the performance of the projector was equal to DLP projectors claiming 5000 to 1 CR. On the second unit I had the black bars above and below the movie on 2:35 material was as Art at Projector Reviews described, kind of grey and disappointing, but on the 3rd unit I received those same bars are quite dark. I was hoping my 3rd unit was going to be defective because Samsung told if I had a problem again they would issue a refund--but now I am very happy that the projector is working. I know it is hard for people to read that other projectors are better than the one they own but that is the reality--all projectors are not equal.

This whole thing seems so subjective to me. I guess the question would be, would a one thousand dollar price difference give you a one thousand dollar difference in enjoyment of the entertainment. I myself enjoy a presentable, big picture. I think virtually any projector outside of something like the Hasbro Zoombox could do that for me.

This whole dumbing down and lowest common denominator type of thinking is really ridiculous. Just because a 1K projector puts out a decent picture doesn't mean that all the projectors no matter what resolution, what lens quality, what innovations what scaler, etc are now the same quality as a 1K projector. This is so ridiculous I can't believe people are make such uninformed posts. If anyone feels insulted I really don't care.

Is my post 'uninformed'?

Is my post 'uninformed'?

The differences between projectors are not subjective. They are easily measured with various types of instrumentation and calibration software. They are discernible visually as well. It is not like tasting potato salad and liking one recipe over another--that truly is subjective. This is technology and lumens, contrast, accuracy of colors, grey scale tracking, image sharpness can all be accurately determined using objective methods. The differences will be visible and will enhance or detract from the enjoyment of the projector and watching movies. If you say I don't care just give me a big picture and I am happy well that is one thing--but that doesn't mean there aren't very dramatic differences between projectors.

If you are not happy with your Samsung LCD why would be satisfied with a projector with equal performance. The Samsung problems seem to behind them so that projector is an amazing bargain as is the Marantz. We are talking about a huge difference in picture quality between the Mits/Optoma vs the Samsung/Marantz. If you like movies that have a lot of dark scenes the Marantz or the Samsung will be dramatically better.

Because I'd rather have a projector thats give me performance thats good enough than have a projector that I'm afraid to touch because it will die on me. It could be the greatest projector on the planet, but the last thing I want to worry about is whether or not it's going to actually work when I hit the power button or not.

Now the Marantz is a different case. It doesn't seem to have the same CQ issue as the samsung unit. But at about 4-500 extra plus the shorter throw distance, I don't kow if it'll work for me.

This whole dumbing down and lowest common denominator type of thinking is really ridiculous. Just because a 1K projector puts out a decent picture doesn't mean that all the projectors no matter what resolution, what lens quality, what innovations what scaler, etc are now the same quality as a 1K projector. This is so ridiculous I can't believe people are make such uninformed posts. If anyone feels insulted I really don't care.

I think the issue here is you don't feel that a value based, low priced projetor should even be considered by anyone. You're entitled to your opinion but not everyone feels the same way. I know I don't and the people who bought the cheap optomo or mits projectors probably share the same views as me. It seems like your posts are starting to getting close to the line of thread crapping honestly. I have no plans to spend over $1000 for a projector. To me that's the point of deminishing returns and really isn't worth it. The same way I can't see myself spending 2-3 grand on a lcd or plasma. I could easily afford it, but the value isn't there to me. I'm not a videophile, I'm not an AV enthusiast, but I am very frugal and value conscious on most things. I just want a big HD display to watch movies and play games on.

The Panasonic 1080 was reviewed at the time as being the softest 1080 projector while the Z5, while cheap, has been reviewed as one of the sharpest 720P projectors. That makes his comparison even a stronger case for the superiority of 1080P.

Soft and Sharp are not a synonym for less detail and more detail, respectively.

The Pana AE100 is VERY soft, but doesn't produce less detail than other 720p projectors.

You can't compare the Z5 to a different brand 1080p units, because we are talking different lens, different video processing, etc.

I am sure the Marantz has better blacks than the Sammy but both of these projectors are in a totally difference class than the Optoma/Mits. Specifically the lens quality and the rendering shadow detail is much improved. I have had 3 Samsungs since Jan. The first was DOA, the 2nd lasted about 125 hours and died and I wasn't happy with the blacks. The 3rd seemed like it was a totally difference projector. It has amazing blacks and is closing in on 500 hours without a hiccup. I watched the HD-DVD version of 300 on a RS1 then on the Sammy and black level was close to the RS1 which was very surprising. There must be some variations in the units or maybe they did some changes in the projector. In Projector Centrals review they described the Sammy's blacks as inky blacks and that the performance of the projector was equal to DLP projectors claiming 5000 to 1 CR. On the second unit I had the black bars above and below the movie on 2:35 material was as Art at Projector Reviews described, kind of grey and disappointing, but on the 3rd unit I received those same bars are quite dark. I was hoping my 3rd unit was going to be defective because Samsung told if I had a problem again they would issue a refund--but now I am very happy that the projector is working. I know it is hard for people to read that other projectors are better than the one they own but that is the reality--all projectors are not equal.

This is quite interesting that there is that much variation in blacks between units. It would seem from what you are stating, the ones that actually work have better blacks than the ones that do not. This is the first time I have seen this observation stated and it is very interesting. I am just surprised sammy didn't state the CR much higher if it was supposed to have naturally better blacks than had been reported so far.

I think the issue here is you don't feel that a value based, low priced projetor should even be considered by anyone. You're entitled to your opinion but not everyone feels the same way. I know I don't and the people who bought the cheap optomo or mits projectors probably share the same views as me. It seems like your posts are starting to getting close to the line of thread crapping honestly. I have no plans to spend over $1000 for a projector. To me that's the point of deminishing returns and really isn't worth it. The same way I can't see myself spending 2-3 grand on a lcd or plasma. I could easily afford it, but the value isn't there to me. I'm not a videophile, I'm not an AV enthusiast, but I am very frugal and value conscious on most things. I just want a big HD display to watch movies and play games on.

I don't know if disingenuous or troll would be the right word but I find it strange that the person who started this thread, states: “I have no plans to spend over $1000 for a projector.” I think a lot of people have put a lot of energy into this thread thinking you seriously were considering buying a quality projector. One would think the most reasonable alternative to 1080P would at least be a better quality 720 projector but it is clear that your mind was set even before you started this thread.

This is quite interesting that there is that much variation in blacks between units. It would seem from what you are stating, the ones that actually work have better blacks than the ones that do not. This is the first time I have seen this observation stated and it is very interesting. I am just surprised sammy didn't state the CR much higher if it was supposed to have naturally better blacks than had been reported so far.


I am making a statement that applies only to the 3 units I have personally experienced, and I am also reporting that PC's review claimed inky blacks and performance equalling 5000 to 1 projectors. I did not expect to be happy with this projector after my experience with the first two--but now I couldn't be happier with its performance. In fact it is so good that this would be one of those 720P projectors that would give a 1080P projector a run for the money.

I agree with Tom and I am sick of this whole idea of deferring one's pleasure. Sure 1080 will get cheaper but it is already cheap enough.

For the time being I am happy with my 720P projector as many including you are ...

In fact it is so good that this would be one of those 720P projectors that would give a 1080P projector a run for the money.

Leckian, why have you not purchased a 1080p projector?

Your comments throughout this thread are somewhat contradictory.

Leckian, why have you not purchased a 1080p projector?

Your comments throughout this thread are somewhat contradictory.

My comments encouraging the purchase of 1080 were for someone who does not have a projector who asked should I buy 1080 or 720. I think that is the best decision for someone who can afford 1080. I never said or believe that everyone with a 720 projector should sell their projector and buy a 1080 myself included. I definitely plan to buy a 1080P projector soon and I am saving for one so I can buy it with cash and not a credit card.

My comments encouraging the purchase of 1080 were for someone who does not have a projector who asked should I buy 1080 or 720. I think that is the best decision for someone who can afford 1080. I never said or believe that everyone with a 720 projector should sell their projector and buy a 1080 myself included. I definitely plan to buy a 1080P projector soon and I am saving for one so I can buy it with cash and not a credit card.

Ahh ok - so you own a "doorstop" too. And, because of price (like 90% of the folks) you can't afford/justify jumping to 1080.

Out of curiosity, did you purchase your Sammy recently?

There have been a host of new 1080p announcements last week at IFA and there will be more next week at CEDIA. At the very least, the prices of current 1080p pjs should drop. Several new 720p pjs as well for bargain hunters.

Ahh ok - so you own a "doorstop" too. And, because of price (like 90% of the folks) you can't afford/justify jumping to 1080.

Out of curiosity, did you purchase your Sammy recently?


I purchased in January 2007 so I did not get it for the current deal but I am still happy with my purchase although initially I had some discouraging problems. I definitely could go with 1080 now but I do not want to use my credit card plus I am dealing with WAF since I haven't even had this projector for 1 year.

I don't know if disingenuous or troll would be the right word but I find it strange that the person who started this thread, states: “I have no plans to spend over $1000 for a projector.” I think a lot of people have put a lot of energy into this thread thinking you seriously were considering buying a quality projector.
Well said!:)

I purchased in January 2007 so I did not get it for the current deal but I am still happy with my purchase although initially I had some discouraging problems. I definitely could go with 1080 now but I do not want to use my credit card plus I am dealing with WAF since I haven't even had this projector for 1 year.

The point to take away is that we all have our reasons for the decisions we make, and cost makes up a huge chunk of those reasons - including 720p over 1080p.

Previously, it seemed as if you were discouraging buyers from purchasing 720p beacause "1080p is already cheap enough". While this may be true as an exception, it is not the rule given the average consumer finances.

Maybe you are satisfied with the performance of your 720p PJ but not at the price you paid. There will be lots of more-than-happy consumers with your Sammy at the current price point, and because of that, it makes it a very viable alternative to a 3k investment. Advising others to dump 3k (maybe like you did) only to watch 6 months later that their PJ is "entry level", to me, gives me the impression that you are willing to spend others' money a little more freely than you are to spend your own.

The point to take away is that we all have our reasons for the decisions we make, and cost makes up a huge chunk of those reasons - including 720p over 1080p.

Previously, it seemed as if you were discouraging buyers from purchasing 720p beacause "1080p is already cheap enough". While this may be true as an exception, it is not the rule given the average consumer finances.

Maybe you are satisfied with the performance of your 720p PJ but not at the price you paid. There will be lots of more-than-happy consumers with your Sammy at the current price point, and because of that, it makes it a very viable alternative to a 3k investment. Advising others to dump 3k (maybe like you did) only to watch 6 months later that their PJ is "entry level", to me, gives me the impression that you are willing to spend others' money a little more freely than you are to spend your own.

I am not spending anyones money. If I did not have a projector right now I would buy what I want and that is a 1080P projector. I recommend it because it is better than 720P and the current selling price fits within the domain of this section of the forum. Perhaps this forum would be better served if there was a section for people who wanted to spend 1000 or less. The thread starter posed a legitimate question and I answered it. Obviously there are 2 sides to this issue and this thread would not exist if there was not merit on both sides to consider.

Well said!:)

Not really. leckian is equating CURRENT prices of projectors with quality.

We all know this is relative and largely a fallacy. If by "quality" you mean "capability", the statement may be a little more accurate but still suspect.

Remember - today's $1000 PJs are yesterday's (read: 12 months ago or less) $5, $6 or even $10k projectors. When those people bought those same projectors at those prices, would you have said they are buying sub-par (with respect to quality) projectors?

I am not spending anyones money. If I did not have a projector right now I would buy what I want and that is a 1080P projector. I recommend it because it is better than 720P and the current selling price fits within the domain of this section of the forum. Perhaps this forum would be better served if there was a section for people who wanted to spend 1000 or less. The thread starter posed a legitimate question and I answered it. Obviously there are 2 sides to this issue and this thread would not exist if there was not merit on both sides to consider.

Actually, I don't think I could ever, in good conscience, advise someone new to front projectors to pay 3k for their first experience. With the lack of being able to see most of these products in operation before being bought, some may be extremely discouraged at the purchase, largely because the FPJs are so temperamental to the environment conditions (ambient light).

Not really. leckian is equating CURRENT prices of projectors with quality.

We all know this is relative and largely a fallacy. If by "quality" you mean "capability", the statement may be a little more accurate but still suspect.

Remember - today's $1000 PJs are yesterday's (read: 12 months ago or less) $5, $6 or even $10k projectors. When those people bought those same projectors at those prices, would you have said they are buying sub-par (with respect to quality) projectors?

No not really. A lot of the projectors mentioned as alternatives to 1080P including the Optoma and the Mits were cheap from the get go and were never 5-10K projectors as you allege.

Actually, I don't think I could ever, in good conscience, advise someone new to front projectors to pay 3k for their first experience. With the lack of being able to see most of these products in operation before being bought, some may be extremely discouraged at the purchase, largely because the FPJs are so temperamental to the environment conditions (ambient light).

Whether someone has control of their ambient light can be easily be determined before the purchase and performance can easily be predicted based on this knowledge.

No not really. A lot of the projectors mentioned as alternatives to 1080P including the Optoma and the Mits were cheap from the get go and were never 5-10K projectors as you allege.

Well, ok, agreed. But there are still gems to be had in the price v. performance bracket that are carry-overs from higher-price brackets. The two that come to mind are the Samsung and the Marantz. PJs that START with an MSRP in the 1k price range should probably be looked at long and hard in comparison to those that started higher and fell in price.

Look at it this way, you know first hand what the differences are between viewing at 720p v. 1080p (you stated you had some 1080p PJs in your home in a previous post). Even knowing the difference AND knowing that you paid 2x or more you still said that you are HAPPY with your purchase.

How do you think someone who has never witnessed 1080p first hand and pays half as much or less than you did could NOT be happy?

Well, ok, agreed. But there are still gems to be had in the price v. performance bracket that are carry-overs from higher-price brackets. The two that come to mind are the Samsung and the Marantz.

Look at it this way, you know first hand what the differences are between viewing at 720p v. 1080p (you stated you had some 1080p PJs in your home in a previous post). Even knowing the difference AND knowing that you paid 2x or more you still said that you are HAPPY with your purchase.

How do you think someone who has never witnessed 1080p first hand and pays half as much or less than you did could NOT be happy?

I am happy because I look at my buying decision within the context of the time it was made, not today. After deciding to go digital after being a CRT owner my first digital projector was an InFocus LP350 and I paid almost 5K. At the time I was happy but now I shake my head. But still at the time I enjoyed the projector and had a lot of fun with my friends and family and I would not want to give up that experience. I am happy to know that I won't have to pay 30K for 1080P like I would have had to do 3 short years ago. If the thread was entitled: Can I be happy with a 720P projector?" I would say yes absolutely. That said my comments have addressed the original question of 720P versus 1080P from strictly a perfomance point of view. If the thread question was Bang for the Buck: 720 vs 1080 --I would have to answer 720. However bang for the buck is not the only criteria that should be considered unless money restrictions dictate that.

However bang for the buck is not the only criteria that should be considered unless money restrictions dictate that.

Most of us have money restrictions. My guess is that because we are in the sub-3k forum, most people even discussing this will have cash limitations and will want to get the most for the money they have at their disposal. If you want to discuss PJs with the mentality that "money is no object", then go to the over-3k forum. In my opinion, a few years ago a line may have existed at the 3k mark. Thanks to technology and consumers reluctant to throw their money around freely, I think there either needs to be a new forum, say "under-1500" or redefine the forums to "720p" and "1080p" because that's where the true line now exists. Price is very blurry at the moment.

And remember, for the full HT experience, the costs do not end at the projector. While it is an integral part and should be heavily weighed, I'd rather spend 1k on a PJ that gives me 80-90% full viewing pleasure, take another 1k and invest in a sound system that will compliment it (which inherently is more future-proof than PJs minus the amp) and spend the change on a decent screen and decorating the HT to be functional. Obviously this is VERY subjective to individual taste.

Also, and one item that can never be overlooked is your source material. If you have only limited (or worse, no) access to true 1080p content (HDDVD, Blu-Ray, HTPC) then going the 1080p route RIGHT NOW, FOR YOU, may not be a wise decision. Adding the 1080p source material luxury is not free.

If the OP is even asking whether to go 720 v. 1080, he has implied that since the price ranges are vastly different, he wants to know not only performance differences but also justification for the cost of those differences. If he didn't care financially, he'd already have his Marantz VP-15S1 & Firehawk G3 and be happy as a clam.

Most of us have money restrictions. My guess is that because we are in the sub-3k forum, most people even discussing this will have cash limitations and will want to get the most for the money they have at their disposal. If you want to discuss PJs with the mentality that "money is no object", then go to the over-3k forum. In my opinion, a few years ago a line may have existed at the 3k mark. Thanks to technology and consumers reluctant to throw their money around freely, I think there either needs to be a new forum, say "under-1500" or redefine the forums to "720p" and "1080p" because that's where the true line now exists. Price is very blurry at the moment.

And remember, for the full HT experience, the costs do not end at the projector. While it is an integral part and should be heavily weighed, I'd rather spend 1k on a PJ that gives me 80-90% full viewing pleasure, take another 1k and invest in a sound system that will compliment it (which inherently is more future-proof than PJs minus the amp) and spend the change on a decent screen and decorating the HT to be functional. Obviously this is VERY subjective to individual taste.

Also, and one item that can never be overlooked is your source material. If you have only limited (or worse, no) access to true 1080p content (HDDVD, Blu-Ray, HTPC) then going the 1080p route RIGHT NOW, FOR YOU, may not be a wise decision. Adding the 1080p source material luxury is not free.

If the OP is even asking whether to go 720 v. 1080, he has implied that since the price ranges are vastly different, he wants to know not only performance differences but also justification for the cost of those differences. If he didn't care financially, he'd already have his Marantz VP-15S1 & Firehawk G3 and be happy as a clam.

I like your idea of "redefine the forums to "720p" and "1080p"--that makes a lot of sense. As far as the OP goes he actually seems to be learning toward 1080 in his original question: "Can anyone who've had experience with both please chime in? In a month or so I'm planning on getting a 720p projector for my living room, but I'm thinking that maybe I should spend extra for a 1080p projector. 1080p projectors seem to be about 2-3 times the price though. My screen will be 100", and from what I've read, with a screen size this large 1080p is definately the only way to go."

I too agree that ~$2900 USD, 1080p projectors, do not belong to this forum. At the above $3000 forum, over 90% of the discussion is regarding projectors which are around $3500.

I think the limit should be $2000 between the forums.

1080p and 720p forums is not a good idea, because in a year or so, we will be seeing 1080p projectors for below $2000.

I too agree that ~$2900 USD, 1080p projectors, do not belong to this forum. At the above $3000 forum, over 90% of the discussion is regarding projectors which are around $3500.

I think the limit should be $2000 between the forums.

1080p and 720p forums is not a good idea, because in a year or so, we will be seeing 1080p projectors for below $2000.

Which is exactly why the line should not be drawn by MSRP. Everything is dropping like a stone now, and with CEDIA in a few days, all bets are off.

I too agree that ~$2900 USD, 1080p projectors, do not belong to this forum. At the above $3000 forum, over 90% of the discussion is regarding projectors which are around $3500.

I think the limit should be $2000 between the forums.

1080p and 720p forums is not a good idea, because in a year or so, we will be seeing 1080p projectors for below $2000.

This is the only category of equipment that is divided by price on this forum. The speaker section, where there is the largest range of pricing seem not have to segregate themselves by economic class.

Which is exactly why the line should not be drawn by MSRP. Everything is dropping like a stone now, and with CEDIA in a few days, all bets are off.

But revealing street prices is against the rules that were set by those who run this website, unless those prices are endorsed by their advertizers.

This is the only category of equipment that is divided by price on this forum. The speaker section, where there is the largest range of pricing seem not have to segregate themselves by economic class.
The bottom line for most people, is price, not features.

I totally agree that for performance received per dollar spent 720P is superior. However this has always been true with high end equipment versus the bang for your buck models--you do pay a premium for that extra performance, but the performance is still there and if you want you pay. Even if 1080P drops to 1K, there will still be other projectors for more money that provide better performance.

Just wanted to add my agreement with leckian's thoughts in this thread.
Right now 720p projectors are at a price/performance point that is absolutely remarkable to me (having had projectors since 1985). I've owned a few 720p projectors and I may even replace my CRT with a sub $1000 model to tide me over until 1080p reaches my price point.
But for some to claim that 1080p is not a visually significant uprgrade over 720p on a projection screen (not talking about a 42" lcd here), well they are just deluding themselves...

But revealing street prices is against the rules that were set by those who run this website, unless those prices are endorsed by their advertizers.


The bottom line for most people, is price, not features.

Are you alleging that there is something unique in the DNA of projector buyers that makes them more price driven than performance driven and that separates them from the other sections of this forum that aren't divided by price?

Are you alleging that there is something unique in the DNA of projector buyers that makes them more price driven than performance driven and that separates them from the other sections of this forum that aren't divided by price?

leckian has a point. Why is the projector the only technology on this entire forum separated by MSRP?

Surely you are not advocating that videophiles are more price conscience than audiophiles.

But revealing street prices is against the rules that were set by those who run this website, unless those prices are endorsed by their advertizers.


The bottom line for most people, is price, not features.

Oh, and by the way, if we go by MSRP alone I should be posting about my Marantz in the 3k+ section, but I don't think that's what the mods intended.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Are you alleging that there is something unique in the DNA of projector buyers that makes them more price driven than performance driven and that separates them from the other sections of this forum that aren't divided by price?

No, I think that speakers should be divided by price too.

Oh, and by the way, if we go by MSRP alone I should be posting about my Marantz in the 3k+ section, but I don't think that's what the mods intended.
For every rule there is an exception. Ancient projectors that get slashed in price seems to enter the exception.

No, I think that speakers should be divided by price too.


For every rule there is an exception. Ancient projectors that get slashed in price seems to enter the exception.

This board isn't about finding the best deal it is about sharing knowledge.
There are plenty of price search engines for people to use if they are interested. This board is not about pricing at all and discussing bottom line pricing is in fact against the rules. I'm not sure if you undertand the purpose of this forum.

I'm not sure if you undertand the purpose of this forum.

The purpose of this forum, for me, is to help me decide what is the best projector I can buy with my budget.

For every rule there is an exception. Ancient projectors that get slashed in price seems to enter the exception.

I don't think MSRPs get reduced.

Anyway, back to the original question: pros and cons of 720p over 1080p?

Here's what it seems to come down to for the 720p decision:

Pros:
- Lower street price.
- Less relative depreciation.
- Financially, most bang for the buck.
- PQ equal to 1080p at viewing distances greater than 2x screen width regardless of source. (I'll put my flame suit on for this one.)
- Many 720p models have all the same input choices as the 1080p models
- Fine for the majority of source material at this time. (The big one being HDTV, since 1080p HDTV broadcasts are almost non-existent (I think HDNET is offering some Club 1080 thing which I *think* is 1080p) and, as far as I know, all 720p PJs are capable inherently of 1080i.)
- For viewers with a large 480p DVD collection, 720p is more than enough to enjoy that library.

Cons:
- Technically, lower resolution than 1080p. The big difference I see here is less possibility for SDE on 1080p models due to a denser pixel array.
- Viewers may be able to see resolution loss at less than 2x screen widths when comparing 1080p source material.
- 720p is not the highest resolution available at this time, so you are investing in slightly dated technology.
- Probably less bells and whistles than the 1080p models. (lens shift, etc.)
- Doubtful that more 720p models will be brought to market that can rival the CR, PQ, etc. of advancing 1080p models, so you're stuck buying older stock or models that have the same technologies as previous years.
- If you are going to have "buyer's remorse" because you didn't get the latest and greatest, don't buy 720p. Bear in mind, however, that technological advances, coupled with plummeting prices, prevents you from staying at the bleeding edge for very long.

What else?

What else?

The most important con, that you have totally neglected, is the fact that at least for LCD, 720p panels have stopped from being updated two years ago. Two years ago we got D5 panels, last year we got D5 panels, and this year we're going to get D5 panels (you can add all the "+" you want near the D5). This means organic panels, worse CR, etc. in comparisson to 1080 panels, which keep getting updated every year, with amazing new features.

The most important con, that you have totally neglected, is the fact that at least for LCD, 720p panels have stopped from being updated two years ago. Two years ago we got D5 panels, last year we got D5 panels, and this year we're going to get D5 panels (you can add all the "+" you want near the D5). This means organic panels, worse CR, etc. in comparisson to 1080 panels, which keep getting updated every year, with amazing new features.

I think I covered that generically in my last con.

I think I covered that generically in my last con.

Was it there before I wrote my post ?, you edited your post after I posted mine... anyway you're right and it's basically what I repeated.

Doh, sorry. I think I was editing while you posted.

I don't think MSRPs get reduced.

Anyway, back to the original question: pros and cons of 720p over 1080p?

Here's what it seems to come down to for the 720p decision:

Pros:
- Lower street price.
- Less relative depreciation.
- Financially, most bang for the buck.
- PQ equal to 1080p at viewing distances greater than 2x screen width regardless of source. (I'll put my flame suit on for this one.)
- Many 720p models have all the same input choices as the 1080p models
- Fine for the majority of source material at this time. (The big one being HDTV, since 1080p HDTV broadcasts are almost non-existent (I think HDNET is offering some Club 1080 thing which I *think* is 1080p) and, as far as I know, all 720p PJs are capable inherently of 1080i.)
- For viewers with a large 480p DVD collection, 720p is more than enough to enjoy that library.

Cons:
- Technically, lower resolution than 1080p. The big difference I see here is less possibility for SDE on 1080p models due to a denser pixel array.
- Viewers may be able to see resolution loss at less than 2x screen widths when comparing 1080p source material.
- 720p is not the highest resolution available at this time, so you are investing in slightly dated technology.
- Probably less bells and whistles than the 1080p models. (lens shift, etc.)
- Doubtful that more 720p models will be brought to market that can rival the CR, PQ, etc. of advancing 1080p models, so you're stuck buying older stock or models that have the same technologies as previous years.
- If you are going to have "buyer's remorse" because you didn't get the latest and greatest, don't buy 720p. Bear in mind, however, that technological advances, coupled with plummeting prices, prevents you from staying at the bleeding edge for very long.

What else?

One comment I would have is that many HDTV broadcasts are in 1080i which on a 1080P projector is presented as a 1080P image. Most 720P projectors handle a 1080i signal by downrezzing it to 540 and then scaling it to 720P so there really is a significant loss of video information.

One comment I would have is that many HDTV broadcasts are in 1080i which on a 1080P projector is presented as a 1080P image. Most 720P projectors handle a 1080i signal by downrezzing it to 540 and then scaling it to 720P so there really is a significant loss of video information.

I never knew that.

What processing happens between a 1080i signal and a 1080p image?

I never knew that.

What processing happens between a 1080i signal and a 1080p image?

The even and odd lines are combined into a progressive signal much like in standard DVD where a 480i signal is deinterlaced to give you 480P.

Yeah, after I posted I realized with a little more thought that its just a combination of the 2 interlaced images into one image.

One comment I would have is that many HDTV broadcasts are in 1080i which on a 1080P projector is presented as a 1080P image. Most 720P projectors handle a 1080i signal by downrezzing it to 540 and then scaling it to 720P so there really is a significant loss of video information.

In addition this is why the Greek shootout comparing the 720P versus the 1080P Marantz projectors is not applicable when comparing other 720P projectors to 1080P projectors. The Marantz 720P projector used is the only 720P projector I know off that deinterlaces a 1080i signal to 1080P first and then scales it to 720--all other 720P projectors convert a 1080i signal to
540P then scales it to 720P. So the 720P Marantz is actually presenting quite a bit more resolution then every other 720P projector.

In addition this is why the Greek shootout comparing the 720P versus the 1080P Marantz projectors is not applicable when comparing other 720P projectors to 1080P projectors. The Marantz 720P projector used is the only 720P projector I know off that deinterlaces a 1080i signal to 1080P first and then scales it to 720--all other 720P projectors convert a 1080i signal to
540P then scales it to 720P. So the 720P Marantz is actually presenting quite a bit more resolution then every other 720P projector.

This would have to be verified, but I'd be shocked if the new BenQ W500 didn't operate this way as well.

The Reon VX in the XA2 de-interlaces to 1080p from the 1080i60 coming off the NEC decoder before converting to 720p for output. I'd think the same method would be used in the W500, though it wouldn't necessarily have to be so. Though an avoidance of field-scaling as a de-interlacing method is one of the main advantages of the HQV chipsets over more common processing solutions.

Ancient projectors that get slashed in price seems to enter the exception.

Damn, not even a year old at it gets called ancient. Soon we will be required to change a PJ every month.

many HDTV broadcasts are in 1080i which on a 1080P projector is presented as a 1080P image.

Right now, it is an even split in my area for my OTA broadcasts, therefore one more reason I am in no hurry for 1080p.

Damn, not even a year old at it gets called ancient. Soon we will be required to change a PJ every month.

I know. :eek:

I don't know if disingenuous or troll would be the right word but I find it strange that the person who started this thread, states: “I have no plans to spend over $1000 for a projector.” I think a lot of people have put a lot of energy into this thread thinking you seriously were considering buying a quality projector. One would think the most reasonable alternative to 1080P would at least be a better quality 720 projector but it is clear that your mind was set even before you started this thread.

currently, I see no reason spending 2-3k on a product I've had no first hand experience with and I'll have no clue how it'll work in my environment before purchasing. I can't go to a store and demo the unit, so I have to trust the opinions of people I've never even met before. You're opinion is that the HD1000 or HD70 are not quality projects, but a couple of owners of those models came and stated that they are very happy with the decision they made. I've also read a lot of reviews from the numerous threads on AVS, to review on audioholics and projectorcentral stating that both these "low quality" projectors display a wonderful image; And its statements like "I think a lot of people have put a lot of energy into this thread thinking you seriously were considering buying a quality projector." that makes me wonder if your purposely trying to thread crap. Of course I'm looking for a quality projector, I just don't want to spend a lot of money doing so. I'm very value conscience, and the higher priced units to me seem to be hitting the point diminishing returns as far as Im concerned.

I'm shocked to hear that you dont have a 1080p set yourself since youre the main proponent of 1080p displays in this thread. You obviously believe 720p or sub 1k projectors are irrelevant, and you're entitled to your opinion, but you obviously place a different value system on certains units than I do.

currently, I see no reason spending 2-3k on a product I've had no first hand experience with and I'll have no clue how it'll work in my environment before purchasing. I can't go to a store and demo the unit, so I have to trust the opinions of people I've never even met before. You're opinion is that the HD1000 or HD70 are not quality projects, but a couple of owners of those models came and stated that they are very happy with the decision they made. I've also read a lot of reviews from the numerous threads on AVS, to review on audioholics and projectorcentral stating that both these "low quality" projectors display a wonderful image; And its statements like "I think a lot of people have put a lot of energy into this thread thinking you seriously were considering buying a quality projector." that makes me wonder if your purposely trying to thread crap. Of course I'm looking for a quality projector, I just don't want to spend a lot of money doing so. I'm very value conscience, and the higher priced units to me seem to be hitting the point diminishing returns as far as Im concerned.

I'm shocked to hear that you dont have a 1080p set yourself since youre the main proponent of 1080p displays in this thread. You obviously believe 720p or sub 1k projectors are irrelevant, and you're entitled to your opinion, but you obviously place a different value system on certains units than I do.


To makes this simple let's make our reference point the JVC DLA-RS1 as the best performing projector that is still not priced in the stratosphere.

Some people may argue that for a lot less money the HD80 gives you roughly the same performance or 95% of the JVC

Then you have the Epson, Sony, Panny, Mits etc they will give you about 90% of the performance relative to the JVC

Then you have your exceptional 720P projectors like the Marantz VP-12S4 which because of its exceptional scaling schemes are reportedly equal except at close viewing distances.

Then you have other 720P projectors known to have better than entry level image quality like the BenQ PE8720, Marantz VP4001, Samsung SP-710AE (this list is not inclusive) that provide 80-85% performance relative to the JVC.

Finally you have the entry level 720P projectors like the HD1000 or the HD70 they will provide 65-70%(& I'm trying to be generous) performance relative to the JVC.

I can guarantee you if you had the engineers from these companies in a room together and they were being honest they may argue but they would roughly agree with this scale.

It would be better if you just said I only want to spend 1000--instead you are saying I want to spend a $1000 and I have no reason to believe that if I spent more I would get anything better--well that is just wrong.

So now I reach the last phase of my decision, having assessed what came out of Cedia, or, more likely, what didn't. The new Sony Amethyst/Black Pearl was something I was potentially interested in but not at a 4k "estimated" street price.

And so, I am once again down to my final three options, which vary hugely in price. Either the Optoma HD80, 1080P, the Marantz VP4001, 720P, at half the price, or the Sharp XV12000 MKII, in the middle. I was really leaning towards the Sharp XV12000 MKII early on, because of its amazing build quality, and lens, but the price of that might come a bit too close to 1080P territory, and its a bit more "light challenged"than the Marantz. Still, the overall quality of it still persists in my thoughts.

In the last day, I've been very close to pulling the trigger on the Marantz, especially given the price/value ratio. That would allow me to wait for the next, or next after that, generation of 1080P projectors, in say, 1.5-2 years. The current projectors available under $4k are pretty cheaply constructed and definitely "bargain" built and priced projectors, imo (with the possible exception of the Sony Pearl). Particularly when you compare them to say, the Sharp XV12000 MKII, and similar ultra high quality models that have dropped in price enough to fall into this category.

My concern now is that I am likely to decide to move up my seating for better rear surround positioning and am wondering whether this would push me into having to go with the 1080P option.

My room setup is as follows:

dimensions are 18 x 15 (with the projector and screen working in the 15 foot dimension)

I want to go with a 110 in. (diagonal measurement) screen

seating distance is likely to be 12-13 feet (previously I had planned on 14-14.5).

Will 720P work in this situation, or, given the prospective seating distance, is 1080P now my only logical option? Thanks for your thoughts, advice, and expertise in helping my final choice of a first projector the best possible one.


John

One more thing to consider.

Even if the resolution (720 v 1080) does play a part (and as we have seen, that's open to debate, which means any differences will be small at best) there are other things to consider.

I'd rather have a sh*t hot 720p $4k projector than a 1080p $4k projector. All of the 'extra' spent on the 1080p job will be on the resolution. All the extra on the 720p job will have been spent on the processing, optics, etc.

Steve W

Steve,

I completely share your perspective. My one concern is whether the seating distance to the screen, and the sources I will be using (HD-DVD (1080i), Blu Ray, and HD Cable) will be issues that logically push me me to 1080P. I would much rather go with a high quality, better built
720P, with better optics if I can make it work.


John

One more thing to consider.

Even if the resolution (720 v 1080) does play a part (and as we have seen, that's open to debate, which means any differences will be small at best) there are other things to consider.

I'd rather have a sh*t hot 720p $4k projector than a 1080p $4k projector. All of the 'extra' spent on the 1080p job will be on the resolution. All the extra on the 720p job will have been spent on the processing, optics, etc.

Steve W

seating distance is likely to be 12-13 feet (previously I had planned on 14-14.5).

Will 720P work in this situation, or, given the prospective seating distance, is 1080P now my only logical option? Thanks for your thoughts, advice, and expertise.

I've got the Marantz with a 106" diagonal and sit 11 feet from the screen. Screen door can be seen in very rare instances and only if you are looking for it.

At 12-13 feet, I reckon you'll be perfect.

I did the same thing you did John I had been a CRT man for a long time when I decided to try digital I read all the stuff I could in these forums and found out that personal preference and what that person owned had a lot to do with there advice. I started going to different stores to see PJ's for myself at first 1080p was all I would consider but after looking at the better 720p PJ's changed my mine, I am not saying that 1080p does not look better than 720p at a given screen size and other varibles but I did not see any 1080p machine that was leaps and bounds over the better 720p setups at my screen size which is 92" dia. Having said that if I had a 14' screen as Art does maybe I could jutify 20 to 30 grand on a PJ but at the rate digital PJ's loose there value I don't have money to give away.

The Marantz and Samsung PJ's are an example of the depriciation Samsung 700ae $12,000 at release 2005, Samung 710ae $4000 at release 2006, being blown out at $1000 2007, Marantz 4001 $4000 2006 being blown out 2007 at a little over $1000 I think you get the message. The JVC RS1 is already old news with the advent of the recently announced RS2 and on and on and on.

So I purchased a 720p PJ and have no regrets in a year I will purchase an 2007 outdated 1080p PJ and pay a lot less when its not the flavor of the week on this forum anymore. :D

At 11.5' with the Marantz VP4001 on a 106" screen, I do not see screen door on blu-ray or HD-DVD. I also do not see it on a good HD DirecTV broadcast. I can see it on SD TV broadcasts and DVD's. However, my DVD's are not being upscaled on my tests (due to an incompatibility between my hdmi switch, the Marantz, and certain source components), so I still need to test a DVD in my PS3 to test.

That said, I am very impressed with the Marantz so far. While not a fair test, because the Marantz is at home and the RS-1 was at a dealer, I prefer the Marantz to the RS-1. But, even with some rainbows... I think I am a DLP guy. I was just very underwhelmed by the RS-1, and the screen they were showing it on at the dealer did not help, as it separated the colors creating a sort of silk screen effect (which is one of my biggest dislikes). I am also liking the blacks more and more on the Marantz, which I at first thought were not that great. Still not CRT, but very acceptable to me. When I see black on the screen, my mind now tells me black, whereas with prior projector, it said gray.

When I see black on the screen, my mind now tells me black, whereas with prior projector, it said gray.

That's one of the biggest things the Marantz and the XV-Z3000/DT-500 does very well. I too cannot stand grey blacks.

There was an interesting demo at Cedia in the Planar room. They demoed their new 1080P projectors which aren't shipping yet but some will be shipping soon. Anyway, near the end of the demo they showed their flagship single chip 1080P DLP after showing some of the lower priced ones and their LCD flat panel TVs. The demo projectors were VERY good!

Lastly, they said they had a treat for us and showed us their 3 chip projector due out next year immediately following the flagship 108o single chip. I watched the demo with a watchful eye. I noticed a little better contrast and more pop to the colors but nothing that "blew me away". Small improvements only. They asked everyone what they thought and everyone commented it was better but I think most of us were reserved and probably didn't say what I was thinking. Yes, it is better but not that much better.

Then they said it was going to be cheaper than the single chip flagship 1080P projector. Huh? Because, it was their 3 chip 720! I can tell you not once during the demos did I think I was missing out on detail. The screen was 120" diagonal and I was sitting in the front row at an estimated 1.25x width away. Their sources were blue ray and HD DVD as well as recorded broadcast material both 720P and1080i.

Everyone can argue the resoultion differences. The fact is: 1080P is better than 720P if everything else is equal. If other aspects of picture and build quality are not equal than only you can decide which one is better for your situation but I wouldn't rule something out on one spec.

Bob

There was an interesting demo at Cedia in the Planar room. They demoed their new 1080P projectors which aren't shipping yet but some will be shipping soon. Anyway, near the end of the demo they showed their flagship single chip 1080P DLP after showing some of the lower priced ones and their LCD flat panel TVs. The demo projectors were VERY good!

Lastly, they said they had a treat for us and showed us their 3 chip projector due out next year immediately following the flagship 108o single chip. I watched the demo with a watchful eye. I noticed a little better contrast and more pop to the colors but nothing that "blew me away". Small improvements only. They asked everyone what they thought and everyone commented it was better but I think most of us were reserved and probably didn't say what I was thinking. Yes, it is better but not that much better.

Then they said it was going to be cheaper than the single chip flagship 1080P projector. Huh? Because, it was their 3 chip 720! I can tell you not once during the demos did I think I was missing out on detail. The screen was 120" diagonal and I was sitting in the front row at an estimated 1.25x width away. Their sources were blue ray and HD DVD as well as recorded broadcast material both 720P and1080i.

Everyone can argue the resoultion differences. The fact is: 1080P is better than 720P if everything else is equal. If other aspects of picture and build quality are not equal than only you can decide which one is better for your situation but I wouldn't rule something out on one spec.

Bob

Not sure I understand this correctly. The 720p 3-chip was said to be better (even if not a whole lot) than the previous viewed 1080p. How then is 1080p better in these examples.

Not sure I understand this correctly. The 720p 3-chip was said to be better (even if not a whole lot) than the previous viewed 1080p. How then is 1080p better in these examples.

You said it before I did I don't understand either sounds like the 720p was better than the 1080p.

People's opinions are definitely colored or derived by their budget. If this thread were in over $3000 section you would be seeing very few people supporting the fantasy of 720P as being as good as 1080P.

People's opinions are definitely colored or derived by their budget. If this thread were in over $3000 section you would be seeing very few people supporting the fantasy of 720P as being as good as 1080P.

I think the point being made is that some 720p rival some 1080p regardless of budget. 1080p is just resolution, there is a whole lot more to consider.

I would doubt that companies are going to be making major investments in the way of R & D to improve 720P projectors. Sure the best 720P projector will look as good if not better than the worst 1080P projector but it is not like 720P projectors have cornered the market on contrast, picture sharpness, and color reproduction and somehow these qualities are missing from the 1080P projectors. The differences and superiority of 1080P are there to perceive to those who can distinguish the differences. For those who can't they can save money with a 720P projector.

Headset,

You are correct that if this was in the more expensive range no one would be arguing the 1080 over 720. The only reason this argument exists is because now there are some incredible deals on high end 720s compared to budget 1080s. In this price range the optics, electronics, color accuracy, etc are not as good as the more expensive PJs. Manufacturers have to make tradeoffs to bring a product to market for this price point and those tradeoffs affect overall PQ. If your budget allows definitely look in the $>3k forum at 1080 PJs. Otherwise I wouldn't rule out 720P for the best PQ you can get today on a budget.

Bob

I have to laugh at the circular discussion that plagues this forum regarding 720 v 1080.

The end analysis is that you can get 80%+ the theatre experience of a 1080 with a 720 for less than 1/3 the price. Those willing and able will spend more to get closer to the 100% utopia. That's it. Nothing more mystical than that.

The bottom line is that manufactures and dealers will do anything to make one believe that 720p is not going to give you near the experience of 1080p. Depending on your seating distance, 1080p does have merits in resolution.(And yes, it appears there is still R&D in 3-chip 720p) However to agree that 720p is significantly below 1080p in all respects is ridiculous. There is still 720p broadcast signal in OTA which gives a true native experience. The PQ on some 720p were said to be preferred to the RS1. I think those who quickly try to get people to spend more to make a buck for themselves is very deceitful. The fact is, 1080p is NOT leaps and bounds over 720p (not today by any means) and anyone trying to convince you of such is screwing with your head.

BTW - you will need to be talking about 1080p units like the S1 to merit a general statement that 1080p is that much better than 720p. Therefore that puts the price at greater than $10K, not greater than $3K.

The bottom line is that manufactures and dealers will do anything to make one believe that 720p is not going to give you near the experience of 1080p. Depending on your seating distance, 1080p does have merits in resolution.(And yes, it appears there is still R&D in 3-chip 720p) However to agree that 720p is significantly below 1080p in all respects is ridiculous. There is still 720p broadcast signal in OTA which gives a true native experience. The PQ on some 720p were said to be preferred to the RS1. I think those who quickly try to get people to spend more to make a buck for themselves is very deceitful. The fact is, 1080p is NOT leaps and bounds over 720p (not today by any means) and anyone trying to convince you of such is screwing with your head.

BTW - you will need to be talking about 1080p units like the S1 to merit a general statement that 1080p is that much better than 720p. Therefore that puts the price at greater than $10K, not greater than $3K.

Because of the larger pixel structure of 720p projectors you cannot get a screen size large enough at any particular viewing distance to replicate the scale and immersive experience of watching film in a movie theater unless you have poor eyesight or don't mind screen door. With a 1080P projector this goal is achievable and you will still have a smooth, film-like image. This a huge and very significant advantage of 1080P and no small difference. This is a totally different experience that 720P projectors cannot create. Even if one were to say there are no image quality differences, which is totally false, the theatrical experience that a 1080P can create gives it a very significant advantage over 720P

Because of the larger pixel structure of 720p projectors you cannot get a screen size large enough at any particular viewing distance to replicate the scale and immersive experience of watching film in a movie theater unless you have poor eyesight or don't mind screen door. With a 1080P projector this goal is achievable and you will still have a smooth, film-like image. This a huge and very significant advantage of 1080P and no small difference. This is a totally different experience that 720P projectors cannot create. Even if one were to say there are no image quality differences, which is totally false, the theatrical experience that a 1080P can create gives it a very significant advantage over 720P

I must have poor 20/20 eyesight. oh well, believe what you will believe. At this time, considering budget, I see no real advantage from 1080p and I do get the immersive experience already. As I said, don't go looking for pixel structure if your can't see them from your seating distance.

I have to laugh at the circular discussion that plagues this forum regarding 720 v 1080.

The end analysis is that you can get 80%+ the theatre experience of a 1080 with a 720 for less than 1/3 the price. Those willing and able will spend more to get closer to the 100% utopia. That's it. Nothing more mystical than that.


Amen !!!

The bottom line is that manufactures and dealers will do anything to make one believe that 720p is not going to give you near the experience of 1080p. Depending on your seating distance, 1080p does have merits in resolution.(And yes, it appears there is still R&D in 3-chip 720p) However to agree that 720p is significantly below 1080p in all respects is ridiculous. There is still 720p broadcast signal in OTA which gives a true native experience. The PQ on some 720p were said to be preferred to the RS1. I think those who quickly try to get people to spend more to make a buck for themselves is very deceitful. The fact is, 1080p is NOT leaps and bounds over 720p (not today by any means) and anyone trying to convince you of such is screwing with your head.

BTW - you will need to be talking about 1080p units like the S1 to merit a general statement that 1080p is that much better than 720p. Therefore that puts the price at greater than $10K, not greater than $3K.

Man you guys are on a roll and telling it the way it really is, but the price you paid for that 1080p projector will sometime give you in your mind a better picture.

The end analysis is that you can get 80%+ the theatre experience of a 1080 with a 720 for less than 1/3 the price.

Whose experience?? Yours, mine, hers, his. theirs.. It is all subjective.:D
Over the 3K forum, they must be either blind, ignorant or just want to trash their funds. Don't be so sure. Some like polyester suits and some like wool and others silk.:)

Man you guys are on a roll and telling it the way it really is, but the price you paid for that 1080p projector will sometime give you in your mind a better picture.

Yeah. It is remarkable that in a blind test, no one could tell there was much if any difference between the S1 and S4. I am beginning to believe that a lot of optometrists are doing a bad job in telling people they have excellent vision.

Yeah. It is remarkable that in a blind test, no one could tell there was much if any difference between the S1 and S4. I am beginning to believe that a lot of optometrists are doing a bad job in telling people they have excellent vision.

Or I need to change mine. :D

Yeah. It is remarkable that in a blind test, no one could tell there was much if any difference between the S1 and S4. I am beginning to believe that a lot of optometrists are doing a bad job in telling people they have excellent vision.

That study is only applicable to Marantz S1 and S4 and no other brand or model. The S4 deinterlaces a 1080i signal to 1080P first then scales it to 720P--Every other 720P projector will take a 1080i signal and deinterlace it to 540P and then scale it to 720P. So in all projectors except the S4 you are get 1/2 the actual resolution in the source as compared to 1080P.

Whose experience?? Yours, mine, hers, his. theirs.. It is all subjective.:D
Over the 3K forum, they must be either blind, ignorant or just want to trash their funds. Don't be so sure. Some like polyester suits and some like wool and others silk.:)

Resolution isn't subjective
CR is not subjective
Pixel fill factor is not subjective
grayscale tracking is not subjective
the presence of jaggies is not subjective
color accuracy is not subjective
lumens is not subjective

That study is only applicable to Marantz S1 and S4 and no other brand or model. The S4 deinterlaces a 1080i signal to 1080P first then scales it to 720P--Every other 720P projector will take a 1080i signal and deinterlace it to 540P and then scale it to 720P. So in all projectors except the S4 you are get 1/2 the actual resolution in the source as compared to 1080P.

The problem with what you are trying to prove is that the S1 and S4 were fed their native resolution (1080p and 720p respectively) from an HTPC in the shootout with 1:1 pixel mapping. Therefore none of them had to de-interlace or scale anything. I am yet to see you provide any proof for all your arguments.

With this setup some people thought that the 720p (S4) was the 1080p (S1). But more importantly to quote:

"the resolution difference between the two projectors was from minimal to insignificant"

"if you have a very good 720 projector and you are not planning to sit very close to the screen or to project more than 130’, then the upgrade to 1080 is not necessary".

"We also connected a BR player with 5-6 BR titles just to have a taste of the new HD reality. We all felt that the real revolution nowadays is not the 1080 projectors but the 1080 software which will transform our existing 720 projectors."

"it might be a very wise idea to invest today on a top 720 projector like the Marantz S4 with great optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc, instead of a new 1080 projector with worse optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc if you don’t plan to have a very large screen (over 130’ ) in your house."

That study is only applicable to Marantz S1 and S4 and no other brand or model. The S4 deinterlaces a 1080i signal to 1080P first then scales it to 720P--Every other 720P projector will take a 1080i signal and deinterlace it to 540P and then scale it to 720P. So in all projectors except the S4 you are get 1/2 the actual resolution in the source as compared to 1080P.

Are you ABSOLUTELY certain of this? As far as I know, there are a number of scalers out there that will do what you describe as a "Marantz-only" feature. I'd like to have a bit more documentation before taking this statement at face value.

Are you ABSOLUTELY certain of this? As far as I know, there are a number of scalers out there that will do what you describe as a "Marantz-only" feature. I'd like to have a bit more documentation before taking this statement at face value.

High end outboard scalers like the crystalio and the VP50 not projectors

The problem with what you are trying to prove is that the S1 and S4 were fed their native resolution (1080p and 720p respectively) from an HTPC in the shootout with 1:1 pixel mapping. Therefore none of them had to de-interlace or scale anything. I am yet to see you provide any proof for all your arguments.

With this setup some people thought that the 720p (S4) was the 1080p (S1). But more importantly to quote:

"the resolution difference between the two projectors was from minimal to insignificant"

"if you have a very good 720 projector and you are not planning to sit very close to the screen or to project more than 130’, then the upgrade to 1080 is not necessary".

"We also connected a BR player with 5-6 BR titles just to have a taste of the new HD reality. We all felt that the real revolution nowadays is not the 1080 projectors but the 1080 software which will transform our existing 720 projectors."

"it might be a very wise idea to invest today on a top 720 projector like the Marantz S4 with great optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc, instead of a new 1080 projector with worse optics, scaler, deinterlacer etc if you don’t plan to have a very large screen (over 130’ ) in your house."


You have proved my point-Most people are not using a HTPC and are dependent on the projectors deintelacer and scaler where typically a 720P projector is showing a half resolution HD image at 540P scaled to 720P as opposed to full HD at 1080P.

You have proved my point-Most people are not using a HTPC and are dependent on the projectors deintelacer and scaler where typically a 720P projector is showing a half resolution HD image at 540P scaled to 720P as opposed to full HD at 1080P.

On the contrary, your point is that 1080p is superior on all counts. Don't bring in technicalities to defend your original position. We cannot do better than a bunch of people in a blind test and unless you find a similar instance where 1080p outright dominates against any good 720p, then we would like to hear it. So far I have seen more consensus of the opposite.

Your above argument also has no merit where the good 720p PJs are concerned since 720p is still a native broadcast signal that 1080p will have to scale up. Many of the current 1080p have cheap scalers and will not be able to beat the good 720p PJs in its native environment.

On the contrary, your point is that 1080p is superior on all counts. Don't bring in technicalities to defend your original position. We cannot do better than a bunch of people in a blind test and unless you find a similar instance where 1080p outright dominates against any good 720p, then we would like to hear it. So far I have seen more consensus of the opposite.

Your above argument also has no merit where the good 720p PJs are concerned since 720p is still a native broadcast signal that 1080p will have to scale up. Many of the current 1080p have cheap scalers and will not be able to beat the good 720p PJs in its native environment.

The blind test is only revelant to the 2 Marantz projectors in the comparison, because of diiferences in how other 720P projectors hand 1080i it is not transferable.. The concensus is among people who don't want to pay for 1080 now-I dare you start this thread in the over 3K section and see what kind of consensus you get.

High end outboard scalers like the crystalio and the VP50 not projectors

Well, Thomas J Norton (who reviews for Ultimate A/V and The Home Theater Magazine) states in his review of my projector that it "properly de-interlaces" 1080i to 720p according to their lab equipment, which I take to mean it does NOT first go to 540p (the same magazine--HTM--published a list of displays that do it correctly and incorrectly, so I presume they are capable of determining it for my projector). I have no doubts that there are a number of 720p displays that do it as you describe, but your blanket statement, without some sort of documentation and/or equipment testing of your own, is not as compelling. I understand you'll probably think I'm just "defending my purchase", etc. but it is customary in my line of work to have documents to back up assertions. Your statement is rather absolute ("in ALL projectors"--caps are mine) and should have something to support it. Had you said "most" or "many", I would not quibble. And if someone tests my projector model and proves that it acts as you imply with your statement, then I'll accept that as well. But so far, the documentary evidence would appear to mitigate against your "all" statement.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/607sonyaw15/index2.html

Admittedly, this is only one source, but then again, this isn't graduate school. However, it is at least one piece of evidence that argues against the "all projectors but.." line of thinking.

Ordinarily, in a casual conversation, I wouldn't nitpick over something like this but people come here for, among other things, facts to help them decide what to buy (it's why I spent the bulk of my time in this forum before finally making a choice), so absolute statements should be kept to a minimum without some way to support them.

The blind test is only revelant to the 2 Marantz projectors in the comparison, because of diiferences in how other 720P projectors hand 1080i it is not transferable.. The concensus is among people who don't want to pay for 1080 now-I dare you start this thread in the over 3K section and see what kind of consensus you get.

The other consensus as mentioned before is that those paying high prices WILL believe they MUST see the benefits to justify the expense. Therefore posting to that forum will give a skewed opinion. Although, I believe there were a few there that sold their RS1 and went back to the S4.

Check last paragraph here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11579225&postcount=1281

The other consensus as mentioned before is that those paying high prices WILL believe they MUST see the benefits to justify the expense. Therefore posting to that forum will give a skewed opinion. Although, I believe there were a few there that sold their RS1 and went back to the S4.

Check last paragraph here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11579225&postcount=1281

Your statement cuts both ways. "The other consensus as mentioned before is that those paying lower prices WILL believe they CAN'T see the benefits to justify the expense. Therefore posting to that forum will give a skewed opinion.

Your statement cuts both ways. "The other consensus as mentioned before is that those paying lower prices WILL believe they CAN'T see the benefits to justify the expense. Therefore posting to that forum will give a skewed opinion.

really? in a blind test you are able to see the prices?

really? in a blind test you are able to see the prices?

he he he he !!

Ovation-Sony does it correctly when down rezing the 1080i but it is something to be aware of and check out when you get a 720 unit. Bottom line is when you are after HD you have got to have a 1080 if you play lots of HDDVD, bluray and 1080i so you avoid down conversion. Down conversion and deinterlacing are always a concern and it will degrade the image especially in low cost units to some degree even if is done w/o going to 540.

Ovation-Sony does it correctly when down rezing the 1080i but it is something to be aware of and check out when you get a 720 unit. Bottom line is when you are after HD you have got to have a 1080 if you play lots of HDDVD, bluray and 1080i so you avoid down conversion. Down conversion and deinterlacing are always a concern and it will degrade the image especially in low cost units to some degree even if is done w/o going to 540.

I agree that one needs to be careful. That article was one of the factors that tipped me to the Sony (correct down resolution implementation and how well it did with the HQV torture test disc). I just don't like to read "blanket statements" that are without substantiation. Of course, budget also comes into play and I'm happier being "almost there" now with my Sony than having waited 2-3 years for a 1080p projector to be as good in all the other departments (save resolution) as the Sony and have it fit in my budget. Those who can afford better, more power to them. But I'm glad I made the step up (a giant step from a 32 inch SDTV for DVD watching) now and I believe, when I add an HD PVR in a few weeks, the improvement will be significant there too, even if it isn't "full HD".

Most of the newer chips de-interlace 1080i correctly to 1080P and then downconvert to 720P. I know Faroudja, Pixelworks, Silicon Optix and Gennum all do this with their current chips. The Older Faroudja (? 2200/2300/2310 I forget the model numbers) converted to 540P then upconverted to 720.

I'm not sure on some of the manufacturer's propietary processing chips. It really depends on which 720P projector you are referring, some do some don't. The current bargains Marantz, Sharp and Samsung all process 1080i properly.

Bob

Bob

Most of the newer chips de-interlace 1080i correctly to 1080P and then downconvert to 720P. I know Faroudja, Pixelworks, Silicon Optix and Gennum all do this with their current chips. The Older Faroudja (? 2200/2300/2310 I forget the model numbers) converted to 540P then upconverted to 720.

I'm not sure on some of the manufacturer's propietary processing chips. It really depends on which 720P projector you are referring, some do some don't. The current bargains Marantz, Sharp and Samsung all process 1080i properly.

Bob

Bob

Actually none of these projectors process 1080i properly-they all down rez to 540P.

Actually none of these projectors process 1080i properly-they all down rez to 540P.

Well, neither Silicon Optix nor Gennum's chipsets perform field-scaling as a de-interlacing technique for 1080i content, so any projector utilizing one of those solutions should be producing proper 1080p from 1080i without loss of resolution.

There will always be people who will stubbornly cling to old technology. Two or three years from now these same people will be bragging about how great their new 1080P projector is and how it is just as good as the new 2160 models.

Actually none of these projectors process 1080i properly-they all down rez to 540P.

How do you know (and this question applies to Bob as well)? Simply stating it doesn't make it so, in either case. Does anyone have any test results, articles, reviews, etc. to point to or are people just making assumptions?

With things like bass management in a player or receiver, we have access to the settings, so it's easy enough to answer a poster by saying, "Yes, you can select the xover point" or "No, it's a fixed xover". You can describe the procedure so the poster can try himself. But with this question of scaling and de-interlacing, we have to rely on reports of tests of the various displays. Someone looking for information (as I was recently) on getting a 720p that deals with 1080i "correctly" would be lost in a sea of "yes it does", "no it doesn't" in here--almost always without any evidence to support the assertions. That's not very helpful to anyone. Qualifying the statement by saying "many do it incorrectly" would let people know they need to dig a little deeper, if it matters to them. It would also be accurate. What is inaccurate is to claim that "ONLY Brand X" does it right. ALL the others do it wrong." Especially when more than one "Brand X" is offered as the "ONLY one".

There will always be people who will stubbornly cling to old technology. Two or three years from now these same people will be bragging about how great their new 1080P projector is and how it is just as good as the new 2160 models.

That is a good point--I think to opt for old technology as a way of saving money is a good idea as long as the buyer doesn't delude himself in the process. It is all about the money--if all projectors were the same price you would not see people buying 720P projectors and you would not be reading posts from people claiming 720P is as good if not better than 1080P.

There will always be people who will stubbornly cling to old technology. Two or three years from these same people will be bragging about how great their new 1080P projector is and how it is just as good as the new 2160 models.

That may be true of a number of people. But there are others, like me, who chose "old tech" because it is more affordable and performs reasonably well. It's not a question of wanting to brag that "mine is just as good as..." but rather wanting to maximize our performance per dollar spent--and getting accurate information is a critical element of that.

How do you know (and this question applies to Bob as well)? Simply stating it doesn't make it so, in either case. Does anyone have any test results, articles, reviews, etc. to point to or are people just making assumptions?

With things like bass management in a player or receiver, we have access to the settings, so it's easy enough to answer a poster by saying, "Yes, you can select the xover point" or "No, it's a fixed xover". You can describe the procedure so the poster can try himself. But with this question of scaling and de-interlacing, we have to rely on reports of tests of the various displays. Someone looking for information (as I was recently) on getting a 720p that deals with 1080i "correctly" would be lost in a sea of "yes it does", "no it doesn't" in here--almost always without any evidence to support the assertions. That's not very helpful to anyone. Qualifying the statement by saying "many do it incorrectly" would let people know they need to dig a little deeper, if it matters to them. It would also be accurate. What is inaccurate is to claim that "ONLY Brand X" does it right. ALL the others do it wrong." Especially when more than one "Brand X" is offered as the "ONLY one".

It is not my job to serve up information in the manner you specify. You can choose to reject my post or you can use it to your benefit to make sure when you make your buying decision that you don't join the ranks of 720P projector owner's who are only watching 540P, 1/2 HDTV. If you want information specific to your needs, assume the responsibility and do your own research.

It is not my job to serve up information in the manner you specify. You can choose to reject my post or you can use it to your benefit to make sure when you make your buying decision that you don't join the ranks of 720P projector owner's who are only watching 540P, 1/2 HDTV. If you want information specific to your needs, assume the responsibility and do your own research.
I did my own research, thank you very much. And I didn't require you (or anyone else) to invest in testing equipment or provide a ten page bibliography. However, I DO expect, on a site that is primarily dedicated to offering information and advice (like this one), that people will post with a modicum of responsibility and state things that are knowable (like "many 720p projectors do not deal with 1080i signals properly and so the real resolution for such signals is potentially lower than you might expect"--this is both true and a reasonable piece of advice) rather than things the poster merely asserts without evidence (like "all 720p projectors except Brand X deal with 1080i incorrectly"--there are several examples of this kind of irresponsible distortion in this thread alone, never mind elsewhere in the forum).

The first way of expressing caution is reasonable and responsible and maintains the final responsibility in the hands of the individual--armed with this information, he can now do research knowing that there is a performance concern of which to be wary.

The second way is no better than saying something like "Only Mercedes-Benz offers 4 channel ABS...All other cars only have one channel for the rear wheels and that's not a good implementation." That is a false statement and is unhelpful to the individual seeking some advice and guidance. Of that kind of "advice", I will remain critical and I will point it out when and where I encounter it. There is more than enough misinformation on the web that no one needs to add to it, especially as it can be so easily avoided by the simple use of the word "many" (which is true) rather than "all" (which is NOT true).

It is not my job to serve up information in the manner you specify. You can choose to reject my post or you can use it to your benefit to make sure when you make your buying decision that you don't join the ranks of 720P projector owner's who are only watching 540P, 1/2 HDTV. If you want information specific to your needs, assume the responsibility and do your own research.

"Misinformation
You have probably heard the following statements. Each of these statements is partially correct, but also partially wrong.

· 1080i is the same as 540p.
· 1080i is no better than 540p.
· 1080i is converted to 720p by first converting it to 540p.

(The term “540p” is used mostly by 720p proponents who want to belittle 1080i. Like “right-to-life” or “pro-choice” it lets you identify the speaker’s bias instantly.)"

I'd start with the "HDTV Primer" intro on the subject to get a better understanding of 1080i -> 720p conversion: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/720p/720p.html

Then if you care for the math, try this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/720p/MCD720p.html

BTW I opted for the HD80, so I have no "agenda" to defend the 720p platform. I chose a 1080p display because the majority of my source material (1080i) scales easier to this resolution without artifacts. But saying 720p is watching "half HD" is like saying 1080i @ 100 lines at a time on a high-end CRT projection screen is 1/10th HD. It just isn't so.

There seems to be a lot of people here who have a vested interest in making a 1080p sale. There are many people who will not see the benefits of 1080p as was justified in the blind test and from people who have compared both. I am not surprised there are a lot of hidden dealers here who will say anything to label 720p as old technology. I mean, that's what the big box stores are doing also. If 720p was old technology it would not be 50% of what is broadcast and broadcasters will not be switching to 1080p anytime soon.

"Misinformation
You have probably heard the following statements. Each of these statements is partially correct, but also partially wrong.

· 1080i is the same as 540p.
· 1080i is no better than 540p.
· 1080i is converted to 720p by first converting it to 540p.

(The term “540p” is used mostly by 720p proponents who want to belittle 1080i. Like “right-to-life” or “pro-choice” it lets you identify the speaker’s bias instantly.)"

I'd start with the "HDTV Primer" intro on the subject to get a better understanding of 1080i -> 720p conversion: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/720p/720p.html

Then if you care for the math, try this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/720p/MCD720p.html

BTW I opted for the HD80, so I have no "agenda" to defend the 720p platform. I chose a 1080p display because the majority of my source material (1080i) scales easier to this resolution without artifacts. But saying 720p is watching "half HD" is like saying 1080i @ 100 lines at a time on a high-end CRT projection screen is 1/10th HD. It just isn't so.

For your lower cost displays 1080i to 720p conversion is accomplished by upconverting 540 to 720P. If the display doesn’t first de-interlaced 1080i to 1080p, the consequences are that the vertical resolution of the source is at best 540 lines or ½ of 1080P.

There seems to be a lot of people here who have a vested interest in making a 1080p sale. There are many people who will not see the benefits of 1080p as was justified in the blind test and from people who have compared both. I am not surprised there are a lot of hidden dealers here who will say anything to label 720p as old technology. I mean, that's what the big box stores are doing also. If 720p was old technology it would not be 50% of what is broadcast and broadcasters will not be switching to 1080p anytime soon.

A couple years ago people on this forum were arguing that 480P was as good as 720P and that they could see no difference. Following your logic that 720P is a good as 1080P and the position of those who claim 480P is a good a 720P, 480P would have to be good as 1080P. With your conspiracy theory mentality, that new technology is just a way for manufacturer's to find a way into your wallet and that no real benefits are being offered I am very surprised you even accepted 720P.

A couple years ago people on this forum were arguing that 480P was as good as 720P and that they could see no difference. Following your logic that 720P is a good as 1080P and the position of those who claim 480P is a good a 720P, 480P would have to be good as 1080P. With your conspiracy theory mentality, that new technology is just a way for manufacturer's to find a way into your wallet and that no real benefits are being offered I am very surprised you even accepted 720P.

Maybe you don't get it. 1080p as of today only give more resolution (There is no other quality in those units unless you have 20K to spend). Resolution some people would not need if you studied a bit about visual acuity and seating distances. For what you want people to spend, there may be no additional gain.

BTW - it is corporate American marketing, a fact. NOT conspiracy theory mentality.

Maybe you don't get it. 1080p as of today only give more resolution (There is no other quality in those units unless you have 20K to spend). Resolution some people would not need if you studied a bit about visual acuity and seating distances. For what you want people to spend, there may be no additional gain.

BTW - it is corporate American marketing, a fact. NOT conspiracy theory mentality.

Maybe you don't get it. First of all you talk about resolution like it doesn't matter. I am just going to let you hang out to dry on that one. No other benefits you say?-take an average of the CR of all 720P projectors on the market and compare it to the average CR of all the 1080P projectors. There is a big advantage for 1080P projectors and it is only going to get greater every year.

Maybe you don't get it. First of all you talk about resolution like it doesn't matter. I am just going to let you hang out to dry on that one. No other benefits you say?-take an average of the CR of all 720P projectors on the market and compare it to the average CR of all the 1080P projectors. There is a big advantage for 1080P projectors and it is only going to get greater every year.

seems you are taking this personal. Is this thread cutting into your sales? I have got a bridge to sell you if your believe the CR numbers the manufacturers spec out for you to swallow. You have no idea how things work apparently.

Maybe you don't get it. First of all you talk about resolution like it doesn't matter. I am just going to let you hang out to dry on that one. No other benefits you say?-take an average of the CR of all 720P projectors on the market and compare it to the average CR of all the 1080P projectors. There is a big advantage for 1080P projectors and it is only going to get greater every year.

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion if the manufacter does not do a good job on the design of the 1080p PJ just like the 720p PJ neither one will have good CR its not dependant on one simple spec or resolution. And you can't take an average because all are not created the same the higher priced 720p machine can and will rival the same quality 1080p machines accept in percieved resolution differences, yes if you are talking about the lower priced 720p or for that matter 1080p PJ's there are limitations on what a given manufacter with the price point they are trying to achive can do with the design.

Maybe you don't get it. 1080p as of today only give more resolution (There is no other quality in those units unless you have 20K to spend)..Every 1080p unit I can think of, provides significant non resolution improvement over it's 720P counterpart. The LCDs all provide better native contrast, on/off and ANSI. The DLP also provide better on/off and ANSI, along with faster support chips which reduce dithering artifacts over their 720P ancestors.Resolution some people would not need if you studied a bit about visual acuity and seating distances. For what you want people to spend, there may be no additional gain.Resolution, along with contrast, is the single most important property of object identification/3D location used the HVS.

Every 1080p unit I can think of, provides significant non resolution improvement over it's 720P counterpart. The LCDs all provide better native contrast, on/off and ANSI. The DLP also provide better on/off and ANSI, along with faster support chips which reduce dithering artifacts over their 720P ancestors.Resolution, along with contrast, is the single most important property of object identification/3D location used the HVS.


What you see and what many critical viewers in a blind test saw shows this to not be relevant in practice, in theory there is a difference, but it practice, apparently it is not when people cannot even tell a top rated 1080p vs a top rated 720p. Find us a conclusive blind test where 1080p is easily identified and clobbers the 720p.

seems you are taking this personal. Is this thread cutting into your sales? I have got a bridge to sell you if your believe the CR numbers the manufacturers spec out for you to swallow. You have no idea how things work apparently.

I am not taking this personally but I think you are. Just because you bought 720P projector doesn't mean you have to turn a blind-eye to the improvements that have been made in the 1080P projectors. The only thing you seem to believe is any information, whether credible or not, that supports your 720P projector choice-any information that supports 1080P whether credible or not you dismiss. If you could only read what you are writing you would see how ridiculous and convoluted your position is. If you would simply say the improvements that 1080 provide are not worth it to you that would be fine--but to be in a luddite-like state of denial regarding technology and the benefits of 1080P makes you lose all credibilty.

For your lower cost displays 1080i to 720p conversion is accomplished by upconverting 540 to 720P. If the display doesn’t first de-interlaced 1080i to 1080p, the consequences are that the vertical resolution of the source is at best 540 lines or ½ of 1080P.

Are you suggesting that "lower cost" deinterlacers/scalers convert 1080i by first dropping all the "odd lines" to get a 540p image for each frame, then scaling the resulting image to 720p? Think very carefully about this and the implications involved. Believe me, the loss of resolution would be the least of your worries ;)