Just bought 5 Elton John SACDs (EJ, Madman, Tumbleweed, Honky, Captain Fantastic) and I find the 5.1 mix to be kind of over done. I don't like how no music comes out the center channel, and how some instruments are confined to the surround channels and tend to overpower the rest of the music. Especially on "Honky Cat" from Honky Chateau, the banjo coming from the right surround channel is so distracting that I can't listen to it without turning down the surround channels. The other great SACDs I own (Dark Side of the Moon, Avalon, Strange Beautiful Music) have less "aggressive" 5.1 mixes and create great surround effect and ambience, whereas the EJ SACDs sound more gimmicky to me. Any else agree? In any case, it's better to have the EJ SACDs than to not have them at all.

Agreed. They are very aggressive and also a bit too bright for my taste. Fortunately, both issues can be corrected with the fader and treble controls. At least the EJ catalogue IS available in 5.1 unlike so many other artists. JM

Just bought 5 Elton John SACDs (EJ, Madman, Tumbleweed, Honky, Captain Fantastic) and I find the 5.1 mix to be kind of over done. I don't like how no music comes out the center channel, and how some instruments are confined to the surround channels and tend to overpower the rest of the music. Especially on "Honky Cat" from Honky Chateau, the banjo coming from the right surround channel is so distracting that I can't listen to it without turning down the surround channels. The other great SACDs I own (Dark Side of the Moon, Avalon, Strange Beautiful Music) have less "aggressive" 5.1 mixes and create great surround effect and ambience, whereas the EJ SACDs sound more gimmicky to me. Any else agree? In any case, it's better to have the EJ SACDs than to not have them at all.
I don't agree :) , I love the EJ surrounds - Honky Chateau is one of my favorites surround releases ever (that banjo is great). Having instruments in the surrounds is a very integral part of the surround experience and not gimmicky at all, it is the whole point of surround. IMO less aggressive surround mixes ('ambiant') are somewhat pointless and boring, you can achieve pretty much the same thing with realtime processing, i.e., DPLII.

BTW, I was very disappointed with the SACD version of Dark Side Of The Moon myself - IMO what a wasted opportunity for music with such surround potential. The DVD-Audio version that eventually made it out on the 'net (featuring Alan Parson's mix) is far better as the surround seems more 'discrete' (channel separation) thus better immersing the listener in the music.

I haven't heard Honky Chateau, but I'm quite fond of the MC mix for Madman Across The Water.

I don't agree :) , I love the EJ surrounds - Honky Chateau is one of my favorites surround releases ever (that banjo is great). Having instruments in the surrounds is a very integral part of the surround experience and not gimmicky at all, it is the whole point of surround. IMO less aggressive surround mixes ('ambiant') are somewhat pointless and boring, you can achieve pretty much the same thing with realtime processing, i.e., DPLII.

I agree that discrete audio on the surrounds is important in creating a true surround experience, just that the EJ 5.1 mixes overdo it a bit. I do think that they would sound better with some music placement in the center channel.

I know it's DVDA but GYBR is the same ,the mix de-emphasizes certain instruments to such a degree that it has ruined many the songs.

Art

I agree that discrete audio on the surrounds is important in creating a true surround experience, just that the EJ 5.1 mixes overdo it a bit. I do think that they would sound better with some music placement in the center channel.

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on these EJ mixes - to me these are pretty much perfect and exactly what I want in surround mixes. :) BTW Art, with these mixes I hear instruments and such that I hadn't really heard before, so I'd characterize it as revelatory not ruined. Interestingly, the GBYBR DVD-Audio won the 2004 SMA award for "Best Multichannel Reissue" (not that means anything to you if you don't like it - if you don't like it then you don't like it).

BTW, a cool thing you can do with these... to hear EJ's voice isolated, just play the center channel. It sounds like you're in the recording studio as the vocal is being recorded.

Edit
Here's an interesting description of some of the thinking that went into these surround mixes:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=10633139

Here's an interesting description of some of the thinking that went into these surround mixes:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=10633139


Wow, that's a great read, thx for posting it. I don't love the surround mix but I can appreciate the thought that went into it.

I love these mixes. Among the best I've heard. I actually use 'Madman across the Water" as demo material.

I just got ELTON JOHN, TUMBLEWEED, MADMAN and CAPTAIN FANTASTIC and to me they are awesome! At no time did they take me out of the original listening experience though there were instruments revealed in the mix i'd never been able to make out before. I'd always seen Rick Wakeman listed on MADMAN ACROSS THE WATER but never actually heard his organ till this mix.

I wish more mixes where like this! Especially compared to the Genesis- DUKE I just listened to, but that's another thread!!

These are some of my favorite surround discs can't believe anyone doesn't like them.. to me that means you really just want higher quality stereo and not really surround. These are in my mind what all surround mixes should try to attain.

BTW, a cool thing you can do with these... to hear EJ's voice isolated, just play the center channel. It sounds like you're in the recording studio as the vocal is being recorded.


While I cannot comment (YET!) on the surround mixes because I'm only 3.1 right now, I do play with the center channel just as you described and it is an amazing experience. It obviously works with any good mix/master; I did the same thing with PT's In Absentia a few days ago on a couple of tracks. Very cool! :cool:

Best,
Josh

I think maybe Elton John is the problem. Try listening to other SACD's like Beck or NIN

I don't agree :) , I love the EJ surrounds...
BTW, I was very disappointed with the SACD version of Dark Side Of The Moon myself...

I concur with these sentiments. The EJ releases are among my multichannel favorites, and they brought new life to some old familiar classics. I only wish that Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player had been included in the SACD releases. I was always very partial to the songs on that one. Other deep regrets include the Roxy Music catalogue in SACD surround, and Grateful Dead's From The Mars Hotel and Neil Young's On The Beach in DVD-A surround sound, among too many to list.

WRT PF's DSOTM on SACD, while I wasn't very disappointed with that release - it was the reason for my entry into SACD surround sound after all - the unauthorized DVD-A has a more pleasing aggressive mix, IMO. When will there ever be an official multichannel release of the other Pink Floyd classics?? At one time it was even rumored that the latest David Gilmore release On An Island was slated for a multichannel release. But nothing has been forthcoming.

My family loves the EJ multi-channel mixes while driving in my car, they, the Police and Gaucho sound real good, yes they do.

Richard

I also disagree

I have all EJ surround mixes and they are all reference disks for me. I hear material in some songs that I certainly never heard before over the years of listening to his music.

On top of that, consider that some of these albums were recorded close to 40years ago is certainly a tribute to the original source tapes and their sound engineers!

Greg Penny did a materful job IMHO....I only wish that Caribou, Rock of the Westies, and Don't Shoot Me were completed in 2004 as well as stated in the link that Sherbona posted. (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=10633139)

Unfortunately we probably may never see these now that MC music seems to be fading fast. A shame indeed.

I personally think the sound is exquisite!

Just my 2 cents

I tend to favor the mixes that put me in the middle instead of the audience. I do think it's important to maintain levels the same as the stereo mix but what's great about surround is that it can isolate what's been previously burried in the mix.

Some highlights for me:

WHERE TO NOW ST PETER to really hear Caleb Quaye's guitarwork througout the song instead of on the verses. RAZOR FACE to clearly hear Wakeman's organ which sometimes was drowned out by the accordian but clearly present throughout the entirety of the song. COME DOWN IN TIME where the French horn is located in the LS while the oboe is coming from the RF or a song like HOLIDAY INN where you clearly have the mandolin,guitar and piano isolated.

So many highlights especially the orchestrations in songs like SIXTY YEARS ON, INDIAN SUNSET, THE GREATEST DISCOVERY and don't get me on the choir in BORDER SONG!!

I don't even find the mixes "bright" sounding. I literally love everything about the mixes. Well they work for me.

I have to side with the reference comments. Madman is my favorite SACD and Yellow Brick Road is my favorite DVD-A in my collection. Funeral for a Friend is powerful !!!


Bill

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on these EJ mixes - to me these are pretty much perfect and exactly what I want in surround mixes. :) BTW Art, with these mixes I hear instruments and such that I hadn't really heard before, so I'd characterize it as revelatory not ruined. Interestingly, the GBYBR DVD-Audio won the 2004 SMA award for "Best Multichannel Reissue" (not that means anything to you if you don't like it - if you don't like it then you don't like it).

BTW, a cool thing you can do with these... to hear EJ's voice isolated, just play the center channel. It sounds like you're in the recording studio as the vocal is being recorded.

Edit
Here's an interesting description of some of the thinking that went into these surround mixes:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=10633139

One of the worst offenders is Love Lies Bleeding where the guitar is nearly inaudible.In the original mix it is the most prominant instrument.

Art

I gotta also say I loved the "Tumbleweed" mix of MADMAN ACROSS THE WATER. I loved during the guitar solo the riffs were bouncing between channnels. Gave it that much more power!!

Indian Sunset is demo material for me (as well as many, many others in the EJ SACD collection). I am still waiting for Rock of the Westies, Don't Shoot, and Caribou. How about Blue Moves anyone?

I think the Elton John SACD's (Madman, Tumbleweed, Honky, Captain Fantastic) are some of the best mixes, especially since they were re-mixed from early 70's analog recordings. They sound sweet to me, and are some of my favorite SACD titles. I like the aggresive surround mix.

Indian Sunset is demo material for me (as well as many, many others in the EJ SACD collection). I am still waiting for Rock of the Westies, Don't Shoot, and Caribou. How about Blue Moves anyone?

Oh my God, i'd kill for BLUE MOVES!! Just the idea of hearing the full orchestra in songs like TONIGHT, ON HORSE TOWN just has me on edge. Ever noticed how the cello solo is somewhat buried in the ONE HORSE TOWN mix? I'd love to hear it isolated so it can readily be heard.

On songs like WHERE'S THE SHOORAH and BITE YOUR LIP the choirs should sound most excellent where as the backing vocals on songs like CAGE THE SONGBIRD, CRAZY WATER would be sweet!!

It's a shame that Universal Music has backed away from Hi-Rez even moreso as those mixes seem to have been completed!

Count me as another who thinks the EJ surround mixes are the best in my collection. Greg Penny nailed these.

One of the worst offenders is Love Lies Bleeding where the guitar is nearly inaudible.In the original mix it is the most prominant instrument.

Art


Art,

After reading your post yesterday I went home and played the redbook GYBR cd and the dvd-a back to back. It is the first time in prolly a year that I listened to the cd. To me, it just sounded muffled vs the dvd-a version. I could hear all the guitars, horns, drums,etc much better than redbook version on my little system. God knows , you have some of the best equipment out there but to me, the dvd-a is far superior in sonics and mix. To each their own ???


Cheers,


Bill

Had to post again. I didn't like my last post number. LOL

Bill

[QUOTE=Nil;11441435]I concur with these sentiments. The EJ releases are among my multichannel favorites, and they brought new life to some old familiar classics. I only wish that Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player had been included in the SACD releases. I was always very partial to the songs on that one. QUOTE]

Ok can't you just hear BLUES FOR BABY AND ME and HAVE MERCY ON THE CRIMINAL in their full surround glory?? Oh my!! That could be the greatest surround project ever!!

I have all but "Peachtree Road" and all I have are terrific in my opinion. "Honky Chateau" is my favorite of the group.

Chris

I almost wonder if those who complain about the gimmicky surrounds on EJ's SACD's, actually have their system calibrated correctly? I think a sound meter and avia or an AIX DVD-A disc with test tones might help them dial in the system better. Thus making for a more balanced enjoyable listen.

I'm a big fan of the MCH versions and listen to them frequently. My favourite is Tumbleweed Connection (because it is my favourite EJ album) but I like them all.

Ok can't you just hear BLUES FOR BABY AND ME and HAVE MERCY ON THE CRIMINAL in their full surround glory?? Oh my!! That could be the greatest surround project ever!!

I would love to hear Daniel cleaned up and in surround. And Texan Love Song... what a song!;)

So I've been relistening to all the EJ SACDs I own: EJ, Madman, Tumbleweed, Honky, Cpt Fantastic, and I'm liking them more and more. Overall, listening to them is a great sonic experience. The major thing about all of them that I still do not like, is having only EJ's vocals and lack of any music on the center channel. My front speakers are pretty well distanced from each other (~12ft or so) and I can notice the lack of music from the center. It's not a movie, why the need to isolate his vocals on the center? Yes, it's cool to listen to isolated vocals when you listen to just the center, but I feel it detracts from a multichannel experience by not utilizing the center for more isolated music and instrument isolation. No multichannel SACDs that I own (~25) do this. Often, I feel the piano gets lost in the front channels, where it would have been great to put some piano in the center. Basically, the EJ SACDs are more of a 4.1 experience than a 5.1 IMO. Still, they are very nice to listen to, especially love listening to "Hercules" from Honky Chateau.

Art,

After reading your post yesterday I went home and played the redbook GYBR cd and the dvd-a back to back. It is the first time in prolly a year that I listened to the cd. To me, it just sounded muffled vs the dvd-a version. I could hear all the guitars, horns, drums,etc much better than redbook version on my little system. God knows , you have some of the best equipment out there but to me, the dvd-a is far superior in sonics and mix. To each their own ???


Cheers,


Bill

My guess is that since I'm totally new to surround music that I need to work on my set up. I simply can't believe that all of you guys have it wrong. My theater has been down for a month for some video upgrades so hopefully Saturday night I can revisit this. I appreciate all of the great input in this thread. :):cool:

Art

My guess is that since I'm totally new to surround music that I need to work on my set up. I simply can't believe that all of you guys have it wrong. My theater has been down for a month for some video upgrades so hopefully Saturday night I can revisit this. I appreciate all of the great input in this thread. :):cool:

Art


I think a Saturday night in your theater would be kick-ass !!!:D

Bill

I also think that the Greg Penny mix's are extraordinary. To be honest I didn't own a lot of these albums before the 5.1 mixes, but I was familiar with the main songs. Tumbleweed is my fav surround of the bunch.

I applaud Art for giving these a second chance, let us know what you think after your theater is back up and running.

Best Wishes,
Andrew

I was listening to this DVDA the other night and thought the treble was a bit "pish-pish" IYKWIM:confused:.I did a search here to see if the SACD version had a better top end. Then I read that most people say both versions suffer from a very slight brightness. Then after having comparing the Redbook CD and DVDA like wjg ;) did previously by syncing my NAD Cd player with my Marantz Uni player I was able to quickly toggle between the two and can conclude that everything is on the DVDA with bells and separation galore. Chalk and Cheese:rolleyes: The DVDA has given the room this lush album deserves. The vocals are spread evenly across the front three speakers and the bottom end pumps nicely. Its just a pity the high end is exposed (maybe to its own detriment) as a result of this Hi Rez treatment. The CD sounded typically muted at all frequencies. The top end was a little more recessed in the CD but it stills suffers in its fidelity as does the DVDA. It seems to me like the problem goes back to the recording/mastering processes?????????. The Drums cymbals recorded to loud??. Guitars are still crisp and sweet. Go figure.
Disclaimer: The album is a must get and these are near trivial soundings. It does not fatigue my cloth ears after many revs.
My guess is that since I'm totally new to surround music that I need to work on my set up. I simply can't believe that all of you guys have it wrong. My theater has been down for a month for some video upgrades so hopefully Saturday night I can revisit this. I appreciate all of the great input in this thread. :):cool:
Art
Hi Art I A/B'd the CD and DVDA (see above) and the guitars on "Love Lies Bleeding" are active and even to the sides. No front activity. I reckon you just need to crank the sides up 3 or 4 clicks (either via the player or receiver. I like to keep the 6.1 at the receiver at 0db all round. Less signal degradation maybe??). Now you will recognise this thing as the album you knew. Enjoy.:D