I just bought the Heroes HD DVD from Fry's, and after scanning the discs, watching some of my favorite scenes, I noticed the bass seemed much lighter on HD DVD compared to the show's NBC-HD broadcast. I still have some shows recorded to my HD DVR, so I compared the two and found the bass on the HD DVD is definitely lower.

One scene that didn't seem right to me was (SPOILERS!!!!!) in the Homecoming episode, when Sylar throws Claire off his back and she smashes into the wall. I actually do not have this episode on my DVR to compare it to, so I'm kind of going from memory, but I seem to remember the bass being much more active during that scene. When he smashes Jackie against the locker, there is a little rumble, but when Claire hits the wall there was hardly any bass action. (END OF SPOILERS)

Another example is during the Heroes theme music, which comes on with the eclipse logo at the end of every episode's first act. The bass during the music is much more thunderous on the NBC-HD version than the HD DVD version. There were other scenes that seemed off with the bass, but these were a couple of the more obvious examples I thought. Anyone else noticing this too? I have the XA2 with the latest firmware using the analog outs.

Perhaps an issue with bass management? Your DVR is likely piping out the raw DD to your receiver, your HD DVD player is likely doing something different, since it is hooked up with analogs. Perhaps something needs to be turned on or off, etc, either on the player or receiver.

Have you ever noticed this with any other discs before?

I sure hope its not "defective" :( mine's not here yet (amazon+cheap shipping)

Perhaps an issue with bass management? Your DVR is likely piping out the raw DD to your receiver, your HD DVD player is likely doing something different, since it is hooked up with analogs. Perhaps something needs to be turned on or off, etc, either on the player or receiver.

Have you ever noticed this with any other discs before?

I sure hope its not "defective" :( mine's not here yet (amazon+cheap shipping)

No it's definitely not a bass management issue, all my player settings are correct, and I have never noticed a lack of bass on any other discs before. Also, I have my analog and optical inputs calibrated equally. I'm not saying there is zero bass, there's definitely some there, but it doesn't seem as heavy as the NBC-HD shows on my DVR.

Wow that is really disturbing to hear. I was really impressed with the soundtrack of the first season.

I just bought the Heroes HD DVD from Fry's, and after scanning the discs, watching some of my favorite scenes, I noticed the bass seemed much lighter on HD DVD compared to the show's NBC-HD broadcast.

Could it be that the bass was too high coming from your local NBC affiliate? Probably a small chance but it happened on mine. Bass seemed too heavy compared to other channels and when I spoke with engineering they came back a couple days later and asked me to watch and give them some feedback. They had the LFE channel set up wrong and it is now corrected.

I can't remember what the bas was like on the original episodes

I'm going to upgrade the Audio portion of my AV setup this XMAS... hopefully there will be lotsa Bass :)

One word. "Grains" :rolleyes:
Some scenes do have a lot of grains.

I didn't have any problems with the lesser bass while watching it as compared to the HD broadcast. Sounds the same for me after watching disk 1. There will be another re-run on Monday on NBC if anyone wants to compare it.

Also, if you go to U control and click the tutorial button - one will see a sneek peek of the upcoming HD DVD transfers of Bourne Ultimatum, Evan Almighty, The Kingdom (not in theatres yet), Miami Vice, Smokin' Aces and others.

One word. "Grains" :rolleyes:
Some scenes do have a lot of grains.

Also, if you go to U control and click the tutorial button - one will see a sneek peek of the upcoming HD DVD transfers of Bourne Ultimatum, Evan Almighty, The Kingdom (not in theatres yet), Miami Vice, Smokin' Aces and others.

What does this have to do with the topic?

Has anyone else noticed the lower bass level on the HD DVD? I know I can't be the only one. If anyone has episodes on their DVR to compare the HD DVD to, I'd like to hear if others reach the same conclusion I have.

Could it be that the bass was too high coming from your local NBC affiliate? Probably a small chance but it happened on mine.

I don't think so. From my ears, the bass on NBC doesn't seem any higher compared to any of the other HD channels. The HD DVD's bass level just seems lower.

I have never watched Heroes on TV, but the HD-DVDs seemed fine to me. I did not notice bass missing... but I have nothing to compare to either. So far I have watched disk 1 (episodes 1 & 2) which is not filled with explosions, car wrecks, or gun shots. I plan to watch disk 2 tonight. Are there any scenes I should watch out for, or a section where the bass is supposed to be really pumping?

I can't say I've noticed a difference from the HD broadcast. =/

Bass sounded fine to me last night (via optical), and I didn't even bother to power-on my SW (didn't want to disturb my neighbors).

No problems with my Toshiba HD-A1 internal Test Tones Calibrated JBL S-Series & SVS 2531PCi setup via 5.1 Analog. (Verified w/Dolby Labs EX-6.1 w/LFE Test Tones DVD).

The bass support was balance with the DD+ soundtrack/music and overall impressive (including 73 min. unaired pilot!) during the suspenseful scenes.

Phil

Sounded fine to me as well.

Perhaps an equipment problem or something needs to be calibrated/adjusted?

One word. "Grains" :rolleyes:
Some scenes do have a lot of grains.

Film has "grains."

Well no one who answered actually had the NBC-HD versions to compare the two I guess. Most people may not notice without comparing the two side by side. The bass as it is on the HD DVD will do I guess, but it is definitely lower on HD DVD. I'll just live with it.

Well no one who answered actually had the NBC-HD versions to compare the two I guess. Most people may not notice without comparing the two side by side. The bass as it is on the HD DVD will do I guess, but it is definitely lower on HD DVD. I'll just live with it.

I was comparing it to the NBC-HD broadcasts. I really can't tell a difference. Are there any certain instances in episodes that made you go, "Wow, the bass is really screwed on this!"?

If I had something to which I could definitively compare, I could check it and get back to you.

Bass sounded fine to me. Plus the lack of surround sounds was also like the broadcast.

I was comparing it to the NBC-HD broadcasts. I really can't tell a difference. Are there any certain instances in episodes that made you go, "Wow, the bass is really screwed on this!"?

If I had something to which I could definitively compare, I could check it and get back to you.

Well my first post noted a couple of instances I thought were more obvious. I think the bass that accompanies the music seems deeper on the NBC broadcast. Also, if you have the episode Homecoming on your DVR, aside from the Sylar scene I mentioned, there is a scene when Micah is talking to his dad 16:45 into the episode. In the NBC version, the bass was really thumping during this scene, while it is very subdued on the HD DVD by comparison. I know I'm not imagining any of this, the HD DVD is absolutely lighter on the bass. I mean I guess I could just boost my subwoofer up a little bit, but then the bass on every other disc would be too high and I don't want to half to keep adjusting my sub just to watch Heroes.

I just did another comparison with the episode .07%, and a scene in there leaves no doubt in my mind the bass levels on the HD DVD can't be right.

The scene, at around the 12 minute mark, when (Again, SPOILERS) Peter and Sylar face off just does not sound right at all on the HD DVD when compared to the HD broadcast version. The first difference I thought was really noticeable was when Peter throws Sylar across the room and into the cabinet. When Sylar is thrown, you can hear the low bass rumble as he is thrown on the NBC version, while there's barely anything on the HD DVD. Also, even during the music, when Sylar is levetating the shards of glass, the bass is really pumping on NBC... not so much on the HD DVD. And the biggest example was when Peter falls to the floor after getting stabbed in the head by a flying shard of glass. When he falls, there is a very deep "boom" from the subwoofer on the NBC version that the HD DVD does not produce. (END SPOILERS)

If anyone can compare this scene by listening to the NBC-HD version and the HD DVD version and still tell me the bass sounds the same, I can only assume I must have a defective set or something, though I don't think a defect like this could only affect certain sets. I even re-ran speaker sweeps using the DVE HD disc to be sure all my levels were correct. There is definitely a problem with the bass on this set.

I just did another comparison with the episode .07%, and a scene in there leaves no doubt in my mind the bass levels on the HD DVD can't be right.

The scene, at around the 12 minute mark, when (Again, SPOILERS) Peter and Sylar face off just does not sound right at all on the HD DVD when compared to the HD broadcast version. The first difference I thought was really noticeable was when Peter throws Sylar across the room and into the cabinet. When Sylar is thrown, you can hear the low bass rumble as he is thrown on the NBC version, while there's barely anything on the HD DVD. Also, even during the music, when Sylar is levetating the shards of glass, the bass is really pumping on NBC... not so much on the HD DVD. And the biggest example was when Peter falls to the floor after getting stabbed in the head by a flying shard of glass. When he falls, there is a very deep "boom" from the subwoofer on the NBC version that the HD DVD does not produce. (END SPOILERS)

If anyone can compare this scene by listening to the NBC-HD version and the HD DVD version and still tell me the bass sounds the same, I can only assume I must have a defective set or something, though I don't think a defect like this could only affect certain sets. I even re-ran speaker sweeps using the DVE HD disc to be sure all my levels were correct. There is definitely a problem with the bass on this set.

Ok. I just went back and dug up the Sylar/Peter face off to which you referred from my DVR, and I think you're right. The bass does seem a lot more 'clear' on the broadcast version. It could be some audio compression issue with the conversion process. I'm not really sure. I didn't even notice until I did a direct comparison, but you are absolutely correct on that. Bass is 'lighter' on the HD DVD. :confused:

Ok. I just went back and dug up the Sylar/Peter face off to which you referred from my DVR, and I think you're right. The bass does seem a lot more 'clear' on the broadcast version. It could be some audio compression issue with the conversion process. I'm not really sure. I didn't even notice until I did a direct comparison, but you are absolutely correct on that. Bass is 'lighter' on the HD DVD. :confused:

I knew I wasn't crazy. The bass kicks after Peter falls are the most blatantly obvious examples that the bass on the broadcast version is much more pronounced than the HD DVD version. When Peter collapses, there is a deep bass rumble, followed by an even bigger bass hit that just plain does not sound right on the HD DVD. I'm not liking this.

I knew I wasn't crazy. The bass kicks after Peter falls are the most blatantly obvious examples that the bass on the broadcast version is much more pronounced than the HD DVD version. When Peter collapses, there is a deep bass rumble, followed by an even bigger bass hit that just plain does not sound right on the HD DVD. I'm not liking this.

There are a lot of variables that can crop up upon broadcast, even with a Dolby E bitstream (such as re-encodes, etc.) I will see if I can talk to the mixers of the show, as some crews will compress the overall mix (including raising the .1) for the broadcast master while leaving the archive master (the one used for DVD and HD/BR masters) uncompressed. If memory serves, NBC limits the peaks, even on 5.1's to +12, or -8dbFS.....

My guess, and experience, would tell me that the HD DVD is closer to what the producers and mixers intended than the broadcast.

There are a lot of variables that can crop up upon broadcast, even with a Dolby E bitstream (such as re-encodes, etc.) I will see if I can talk to the mixers of the show, as some crews will compress the overall mix (including raising the .1) for the broadcast master while leaving the archive master (the one used for DVD and HD/BR masters) uncompressed. If memory serves, NBC limits the peaks, even on 5.1's to +12, or -8dbFS.....

My guess, and experience, would tell me that the HD DVD is closer to what the producers and mixers intended than the broadcast.

I guess you have some connections to be able to talk with the show's mixers. Well I'd appreciate it, but I'm really not sure that the bass was mixed correctly for the HD DVD. Certain areas of the soundtrack just don't have the same impact as their broadcast counterpart IMO. I mean really, some of the above examples I mentioned output a very minimal amount of bass compared to the broadcast version, almost nonexistent. That can't have been the producers/mixers intent.

In my offical review I noted that I was very disappointed with the lack of surround data. Bass was ok but also a bit weak all things considered.

Could this have something to do with DD+ having a wider dynamic range?

Also, cuzzin, it's "SPOILER" the thing you wish to spoil "/SPOILER" but with [ and ] instead of "s (clear as mud? :D ).

In my offical review I noted that I was very disappointed with the lack of surround data.

That isn't a surprise.

When mixing for TV we have alot of things that need to be taken into consideration that we don't have to account for when mixing for the theater.

When mixing films, we have a tuning standard (x-curve) and a level standard (85db for the LCR, 82db for the surrounds, and 91db for the sub.)

In the home environment, all bets are off... mono, stereo, surround. 19" TV with one speaker on the front, 32" tube with bottom mounted front firing speakers, etc... And the standard for volume is different (some mix stages set for 82, some for 80) as is the tuning. And we will check on some crappy speakers and maybe a mono tv to see how the mix will translate to a lower common denominator... that makes the dynamic range much smaller for the tv viewing audience. And then there are limits put on you by the broadcasters about dynamic range, and absolute peak levels... ABC being the strictest (IMO way too conservative, as they will give you notes on things being too low, and then they have a suggested level for dialogs dynamic range!!!) then NBC, CBS and then Fox (very liberal.) Cable channels are more liberal, but still have standards in place.

But I digress... my point being that it is rare that when mixing for tv it is wise or desirable to use the surrounds for anything but ambience and air.

You can't put anything only in the surrounds in a tv mix, especially nothing story related. Why? Because on a mono set, it will completely disappear (in an LtRt, a surround sound is flipped out of phase on one side of the L R pair and the decoder sends these out of phase signals to the surrounds...) And even today, as far as broadcasting goes, we must account for mono... not as much as we used to, but it is still a consideration.

I knew I wasn't crazy. The bass kicks after Peter falls are the most blatantly obvious examples that the bass on the broadcast version is much more pronounced than the HD DVD version. When Peter collapses, there is a deep bass rumble, followed by an even bigger bass hit that just plain does not sound right on the HD DVD. I'm not liking this.

well it's the way the disc is mastered i did the same comparison you did and got the same result. that's three of us now.

the movie lucky number slevin does the same low sound thing also... it's a mastering issue sadly, meaning the discs are just fine.

I guess you have some connections to be able to talk with the show's mixers. Well I'd appreciate it, but I'm really not sure that the bass was mixed correctly for the HD DVD. Certain areas of the soundtrack just don't have the same impact as their broadcast counterpart IMO. I mean really, some of the above examples I mentioned output a very minimal amount of bass compared to the broadcast version, almost nonexistent. That can't have been the producers/mixers intent.

Just out of curiosity, what are you listening on? And how is your LFE setup on both the Toshiba and your receiver (i.e. large vs. small, etc.) Also, location and NBC affiliate..... Each station can sound different, as can each disc.

We've seen these kind of comments about certain HD DVD's before, and knowing about your setup can be helpful...

There can be a lot of differences between a broadcast DD stream and a discrete 5.1 on a DVD or HD DVD....

I would be curious is you can A/B just the sub between the two (disconnect all the mains)... are you hearing anything different between the material that is in the sub between the two versions when you level match the two? Also, do the opposite and see if, when level matched, the mains sound the same in the big bass scenes.

What is your crossover set at in your XA2 for your LFE/SUB?

There is probably a different mix used for the Broadcast, mainly because they probably use the same audiotrack for Digital (HD) and analog transmission and traditionally they boosted the bass on those in order to cover up some other short comings in the mids and ranges.

I have the HD DVD set here as well and find the levels of bass okay, but then I was never a big fan of all drowning out bass.

Just out of curiosity, what are you listening on? And how is your LFE setup on both the Toshiba and your receiver (i.e. large vs. small, etc.) Also, location and NBC affiliate..... Each station can sound different, as can each disc.

We've seen these kind of comments about certain HD DVD's before, and knowing about your setup can be helpful...

There can be a lot of differences between a broadcast DD stream and a discrete 5.1 on a DVD or HD DVD....

I would be curious is you can A/B just the sub between the two (disconnect all the mains)... are you hearing anything different between the material that is in the sub between the two versions when you level match the two? Also, do the opposite and see if, when level matched, the mains sound the same in the big bass scenes.

What is your crossover set at in your XA2 for your LFE/SUB?

It isn't an equipment problem. Two others here have done the comparisons I noted between the broadcast and HD DVD and came to the same conclusion I did. The bass isn't altogether gone, it's just lower than what I've been hearing on NBC-HD. Other discs I own don't have a problem in the bass department, so Heroes was just mastered this way. I can live with it.

But to answer your questions: I have a Yammy receiver hooked up to the XA2 via analogs; LFE set to small; I'm located in League City, TX, KPRC Houston my NBC affiliate; and crossover in the XA2 is set at 100 Hz.