Estimated price is 4000 euro

Look at page 13/14 for some details...

http://www.ifa-international.org/download/ifa_intl_preview.pdf

Interesting. With such a high "contrast ratio" ... which must be from a dynamic iris and/or other tech, it will be interesting to see what the native contrast ratio and black levels measure at. Hopefully this unit tames the dust blobs and colour uniformity too and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. :)

did they solve the 45% drop in lumens from long throw ?
this race for on off contrast is ridiculous
they should now concentrate on ANSI contrast but this is where the train stops: DLP is the only technology with massive (3-4x more) ansi contrast vs lcd, lcos.

DLP has negative sides too but the topic is contrast ratio.

I agree whats the native? Hopefully we get close to RS1

did they solve the 45% drop in lumens from long throw ?
this race for on off contrast is ridiculous
they should now concentrate on ANSI contrast but this is where the train stops: DLP is the only technology with massive (3-4x more) ansi contrast vs lcd, lcos.

DLP has negative sides too but the topic is contrast ratio.

While I haven't used my TW1000 on what I consider a 'long throw' at this point, I agree that it is important to eliminate light loss at exterem throw ranges for numerous reasons. For one, longer throw ratio's are much better for us folk using the anamorphic lens to achieve constant height.

I honestly just want to eliminate colour non-uniformity. It's not as bad as I've seen it on the old AE100 and L200 that I had, but it's still something that should be paid serious attention to. I think the black level and contrast of the 1080p lcd is good, so any more improvement is great. ANSI improvements too of course. I guess I'll take what I can get :)

For more details:

http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/TW2000Japan/Frame.htm

Looking good. Another point is the sharpness. The TW1000 is ok, but I suspect it's not the sharpest, compared to the Mitsubishi HC5000 for example. So... I wonder how the new crop of 1080p lcd projectors will compare to one another? This is looking good. Also, I wonder if you can order that polarizer part and mcgyver it into another projector... anyhow, this is looking really good.

the cine4home page states 4,500:1 native was quoted from engineers.

the cine4home page states 4,500:1 native was quoted from engineers.

Quite an improvement compared to the gen1 D6 panel of 1300:1 CR......

MMM looks like meats back on the menu boys! :)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Translated version!

Deleted

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Translated version!
Ummm.... maybe y'all should try this translated Cine4home link (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=de_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2FSpecials%2FTW2000Japan%2 FTW2000Worldpremiere.htm) instead? :)
-Matt

It's quite, it's fairly bright, the CR looks pretty good, the price is right... I wonder how it looks (namely the colors)?

It's quite, it's fairly bright, the CR looks pretty good, the price is right... I wonder how it looks (namely the colors)?
Has a price been announced yet?

I have never been a fan of LCD projectors but the specs are very impressive.LCD has surely come a long way.

I still plan on getting the VW60, but I would love to see some comparisons between these projectors. This is such an exciting time for all of us.

Sorry for being confused by these model numbering, but is this to be the replacement for the PowerLite Home Cinema 1080?

This hasn't been stated yet by anyone. I wouldn't be surprised if they carry both for a while with the TW2000 at a higher price and then come out with a home version under $3k in about six months to replace the HC1080. I think the TW2000 will be put up against the Sony VW60 and mid range 1080 units in pricing for the initial release.

This reads a little more like an advertisement than an objective evaluation. Nonetheless, if they are correct that this will have 4500:1 NATIVE CR with the same color performance, higher fill-factor, and 20% better brightness than the TW1000, then this will be a great LCD projector.


I'll be interested to see if they can improve upon white field uniformity as well, which has always been a deal breaker for me with LCD projectors.

I agree that white uniformity needs to be improved and have found that the Epson HC1080 has pretty significant color shifts at the longer throw distances. If it wasn't for this, I would be keeping the HC1080 for a while. On the other hand, I do like the color controls on the Epson and find it easy to dial out the over saturation and get pretty accurate colors. I would actually be very satifsfied with a native 4500:1 provided the other issues have been addressed.

Besides the user can select signal now with fed 1080/24p, whether he the film ruckelfrei with 2:2 Pulldown in 48Hz and/or 96Hz on the canvas wants to enjoy, or after conventional 3:2 Pulldown in 60Hz.

I see lot's of discussion about the above 24p issue, so this may be of great interest to some. I've never seen any issues with my projectors, but it's something many people have been asking for.

I want to know what the actual MSRP of the TW2000 will be in Canada and the US and when this pj will be available. I like the 3 year warranty and 3 year 1700 bulb warranty. An MSRP of 4000 Euro's as first described in the original post = $5766.00 CDN MSRP.

On the other hand, I do like the color controls on the Epson and find it easy to dial out the over saturation and get pretty accurate colors.I agree that this is perhaps the most attractive aspect of the current 1080p Epson. It does have one drawback though. After using the CMS, the color decoding performance is significantly undermined. I understand through the grapevine that the subsequent generation of 1080p projectors (which I assume is the model we are talking about here) should resolve this problem.

I agree that this is perhaps the most attractive aspect of the current 1080p Epson. It does have one drawback though. After using the CMS, the color decoding performance is significantly undermined. I understand through the grapevine that the subsequent generation of 1080p projectors (which I assume is the model we are talking about here) should resolve this problem.

What do you mean by 'color decoding performance is significantly undermined' after using the CMS? How so?

Also, when will these D7 1080p lcd pj's hit the streets? Can I really hope for November?

What do you mean by 'color decoding performance is significantly undermined' after using the CMS? How so?Although the CMS allows you to get the primaries and secondaries reasonably close to their specified points on the CIE chart, it does not correct--indeed may even induce--color decoding errors. You have to measure the relative brightness of RGB to see the problem, and the CIE chart does not reflect this.

The specs are very impressive. Three years ago you would have never convinced me the day would come LCD would have ever matured this far.

Ok, I see.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/avo7007/EpsonPhase.jpg

Looking at the Epson presentation slide, it is mentioned that some sort of phase control tech is use to acheive high CR. What's that?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/avo7007/EpsonPhase.jpg

Looking at the Epson presentation slide, it is mentioned that some sort of phase control tech is use to acheive high CR. What's that?

I think it's some sort of polarizer. Remember the Ultra-Mitsubishi cine4home created which acheived a very high contrast ratio had an iris which controlled stray light.

the cine4home page states 4,500:1 native was quoted from engineers.
Ouch. To go from there to 50000:1 you need a very agressive DI. This baby has no chance to come even close to the HD1 or HD100. If it tries it's compression artifact city.

Ouch. To go from there to 50000:1 you need a very agressive DI. This baby has no chance to come even close to the HD1 or HD100. If it tries it's compression artifact city.


How do you know this if you have not even seen one yet.:rolleyes:BOB

Sorry for being confused by these model numbering, but is this to be the replacement for the PowerLite Home Cinema 1080?

No, Epson said they will sell both this year. The home Cinema 1080 (aka TW1000) will be sold for the lower market (~$3000 USD), and the TW2000 for the higher market.

Looking at the Epson presentation slide, it is mentioned that some sort of phase control tech is use to acheive high CR. What's that?

According to "Popular Science" magazine, in the TW2000, Epson was able to increase native CR, by using some sort of an evaporating solution carrier, in order to pour the liquid crystals. This way after the crystals have been poured, and the carrier solution has evaporated, the crystals are more ordered and sealed, and this is very important in order to create high CR.

Ouch. To go from there to 50000:1 you need a very agressive DI. This baby has no chance to come even close to the HD1 or HD100. If it tries it's compression artifact city.

Cine4home reported that the DI was off during presentation, and even still the blacks and contrast were very very good, to the point it was no longer an issue for LCD projection, in their words.

I think it's some sort of polarizer. Remember the Ultra-Mitsubishi cine4home created which acheived a very high contrast ratio had an iris which controlled stray light.

Isn't this pretty similar to what JVC used on the RS1 to create their high contrast ratio? A wire-grid polarizer?

How do you know this if you have not even seen one yet.:rolleyes:BOB
Simple physics. :rolleyes:
4500:1 panel On-off sets hard limits, DI or no DI.

Cine4home reported that the DI was off during presentation, and even still the blacks and contrast were very very good, to the point it was no longer an issue for LCD projection, in their words.
yeah, yeah. I know how 4500:1 On-off looks. Far from 'no longer an issue'. Did you notice the room they were sitting in? Reflective walls...

Simple physics. :rolleyes:
4500:1 panel On-off sets hard limits, DI or no DI.

:p

yeah, yeah. I know how 4500:1 On-off looks. Far from 'no longer an issue'

It all depends what is your reference.

If your reference is theater film, then 4500:1 is for the first time for LCD projectors, better than the best theater, and so black levels are no longer an issue.

If your reference is CRT projectors (artificial representation of film), then 4500:1 is still an issue.

It all depends what is your reference.

If your reference is theater film, then 4500:1 is for the first time for LCD projectors, better than the best theater, and so black levels are no longer an issue.

If your reference is CRT projectors (artificial representation of film), then 4500:1 is still an issue.Or if your reference is the real world or what the standards call for, it is still an issue. There are multiple issues, like that not everything we get is shot on film or even displayed on film, and there is some argument that some of the best film in the best environments can go higher than 4500:1. If your reference is your local theater, then by that argument little lit up exit signs next to the screen in your home theater wouldn't be an issue. :)

--Darin

"By the various improvements in the optical optical path the TW2000 in the technical data offers impressing values: It is to combine a maximum brightness of 1600 lumens with a contrast of up to 50,000:1, as much as no other Heimkinobeamer before."

I hope this thing really turns out to be a bit brighter than the competition. I have this dread that it will turn out like all the rest of the 1080 lcd crop so far and I'll end up reading something like "although at maximum brightness this machine puts out a theoretical 1600 lumens, after calibration and in cinema mode we measured 234 lumens blah, blah, blah..."

If this machine is bright and an improvement on the already ostensibly well regarded TW1000, then I may have found my new projector.

If your reference is your local theater, then by that argument little lit up exit signs next to the screen in your home theater wouldn't be an issue.

Now that I think of it, I never notice these signs during a movie in the theater. Maybe I'm not that critical...

For best color performance it will use a cinema filter in the light path. My guess is close to 500 ANSI lumen in truest mode and high lamp.

~5000:1 native on/off is a real improvement for LCD. I'd be interested to see what the simultaneous contrast on this projector is. In any case, this represents a ~4x improvement in native contrast for 3LCD, and should bring it to the level of a Pearl as far as native contrast goes. 10X DI seems pretty aggressive, although perhaps they have better AI to control its use and suppress visible artifacts. Even with mild / conservative DI settings this should be fairly impressive.

Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.

~5000:1 native on/off is a real improvement for LCD. I'd be interested to see what the simultaneous contrast on this projector is. In any case, this represents a ~4x improvement in native contrast for 3LCD, and should bring it to the level of a Pearl as far as native contrast goes. 10X DI seems pretty aggressive, although perhaps they have better AI to control its use and suppress visible artifacts. Even with mild / conservative DI settings this should be fairly impressive.

Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.

If the other manufacturers aren't using Epson's D7 then They'd have to be using the D6 panels, because I don't recall Sony selling panels to other manufacturers, and no company has spontaneously started manufacturing their own panels out of thin air. At least I'm not aware of any company making their own panels apart from Epson and Sony. I think the modest improvements of the other brands is because they lack the tech apart from the panels, like the special polarizing and other electronic details. I'd be surprised if they are all NOT using D7 lcd panels.

Another interesting question is whether all the new 3LCD projectors will be using these panels, or if it's Epson exclusive for now. Mitsubishi and Sanyo have advertised very minimal improvements in their new model PJs and I've seen no mention of this improved polarization technique from any of the other manufacturers.

All 1080p LCD projectors this year are going to use D7 panels. Epson is the only one which will have the dramatic contrast boost, because their trick to boost contrast doesn't involve the basic design of the D7 panels.

D7 panels are not going to provide any dramatic change by themselves.

My understanding is that the D7 panels have a native contrast of 4500 and most of the contrast boost from there is done by their special "trick". I'm anxious to see what the reviewers will say.

All 1080p LCD projectors this year are going to use D7 panels. Epson is the only one which will have the dramatic contrast boost, because their trick to boost contrast doesn't involve the basic design of the D7 panels.

D7 panels are not going to provide any dramatic change by themselves.


No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Ok, thanks.

No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Of all the projectors that would benefit from the D7 panels, the already sharp Mitsubishi would have been a great one to improve. I think now I'm going to be comparing the Epson and the Sanyo the most. As long as the Epson TW2000 is as sharp or sharper than the TW1000 (I hope a little bit sharper) and has good colour uniformity, then I'm thinking the TW2000 is looking like a potentially very strong unit.

Any idea's if Hitachi is out of lcd home theatre projectors for now or for good?

Cine4Home
Is there a D7 projector coming from Panasonic?

Is there a D7 projector coming from Panasonic?

Yes !

http://www.cine4home.de/news/PanaAE2000/AE2000news.htm

I am wondering, assuming the huge contrast advantage of TW2000 proves to be real, and the street price of the Epson TW2000, is going to be similar to that of the Pana AE2000/Mits HC6000/Sanyo Z2000, who on earth will not opt for the TW2000 ?

Epson might totally dominate the 1080p LCD market this year, but I wonder if it will not cost them the business relationship with Pana/Mits/Sanyo next year. We might see Pana/Mits/Sanyo partnering with Sony or Texas Instruments, instead of Epson, after this back stabbing move by Epson.

Even if Epson found out they can dramatically boost On/Off CR, aftar it was already too late to offer it to Pana/Mits/Sanyo in order for them to incorporate it in their CEDIA 2007 offerings, I still think Epson should have not introduced their own projector boasting this advantage this year, in order not to hurt Pana/Mits/Sanyo's sales.

Interesting point. It looks to me like over the last year's product cycle Epson has been positioning itself to take a serious run at the HT segment. This early announcement about the 2000 specs, and the fact that they're bolstering their low-end line as well, seems like the challenge is real.

I'd love to hear back what the mood at the 3LCD booth is this year.

Jonathan

Specs being what they are, it all depends on the technical measurements and subjective opinions of those who view and/or buy/test these units. Although it sounds great about these high native contrast specs from the Epson, we'll have to wait and see just how different the Epson will be vs the Sanyo, Panasonic and Mitsubishi. At this point, I do suspect the Epson may be quite impressive and quite a bit better than the rest, but just how much better will be interesting to find out.

Yes !

http://www.cine4home.de/news/PanaAE2000/AE2000news.htm

Mehr Licht

"D7-Panel bedeuten mehr Licht: Die aktuelle Werksangabe bzgl. des PT-AE2000 beläuft sich auf 1500Lumen."

I do not speak German, but this looks good. :)

IB

For someone who call himself "inky blacks", this is not the line you should be interested in.

This is the one you should pay attention to:
- Mehr Kontrast
Durch weitere Verbesserungen im Lichtweg und durch die neue Panelgeneration gibt Panasonic ein Kontrastverhältnis von 16000:1 an.

And in plain english it says: "we haven't incorporated Epson's new trick to dramatically improve contrast, hence you won't have inky blacks".

No, not all:

Mitsubishi ist not using D7 panels in their new models (HC4900,H6000 both are still using D6).

Sanyo, Epson and Panasonic are using D7...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Hi Ekkehart,

I've been visiting IFA the past two days and have been looking at the EMP-TW2000 quite a lot (boy does Pirates look good in Blu-Ray!). Today I was shocked to see that what seems like a big dust blob has shown up on the screen! Unfortunately I couldn't find any stand personnel to confirm this (I'm almost completely certain it's a dust blob). This made me wonder about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000 (further I have no idea if Epson has a good track record on anti-dust measures in their past projectors).

Since I guess you gave good contacts with Epson through cine4home could you sort of confirm with them that the EMP-TW2000 at IFA actually has a dust blob and could you ask Epson about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000? I can understand if you're not willing or able to do this. I will try again tomorrow and see if I can get some Epson personnel to answer my questions about the dust and the projector.

Thanks in advance,

Jan Roel

This is a new record for this forum, quality control issues/projector defects are being reported before the launch of a projector.

JonioR, can you give us a more detailed review of the TW2000's picture quality ?

Hi Ekkehart,

Since I guess you gave good contacts with Epson through cine4home could you sort of confirm with them that the EMP-TW2000 at IFA actually has a dust blob and could you ask Epson about the anti-dust measures in the EMP-TW2000? I can understand if you're not willing or able to do this. I will try again tomorrow and see if I can get some Epson personnel to answer my questions about the dust and the projector.

Thanks in advance,

Jan Roel


Ok, I might check that out tomorrow. As it seems, the TW2000 uses the same chassis and therefore the same airfilter like the TW1000/700/680 etc. etc. which looks, in my opinion, not that trustworthy... we already mentioned that in our TW1000 review...

Regards,
Ekkehart

This is a new record for this forum, quality control issues/projector defects are being reported before the launch of a projector.

Not to mention someone complaining that a 16,000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good for an LCD projector. :)

The Panasonic may have some advantages over the Epson in terms of throw ratio flexibility. If there is any light in the room, can you tell the difference between a 16,000 to 1 and 50,000 to 1 contrast ratio?

All the manufacturers seem to be slowly inching toward 2,000 lumens. If they would just install bigger bulbs, they could do it now. Maybe the Japanese have no use for very bright projectors, but Americans do!

IB

Not to mention someone complaining that a 16,000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good for an LCD projector.

No, I am comlaining that the Pana will probably have less than 2000:1 On/Off native contrast, while the Epson will have 4500:1.

The Panasonic may have some advantages over the Epson in terms of throw ratio flexibility. If there is any light in the room, can you tell the difference between a 16,000 to 1 and 50,000 to 1 contrast ratio?
Probably not, but why watch with any light ?

If the Panasonic is using D7 panels, why would it have lower native contrast than the Epson?

There is something to what you say, with a native contrast of what? 1200:1, manufacturers were claiming 10,000:1 to 12,000:1 dynamic contrast ratios. If the native contrast shot up to ~4500:1, why such a modest boost in dynamic CR? I hope its because it means they're trying to cut back on the DI artifacts, rather than because they have some 2nd rate D7 panel with lower native CR than the one Epson has for themselves.

panny has a new optics block as well - from the sound of it panny is focusing on sharpness

- complete new optics
Opposite the predecessor in the PT-AE2000 a completely new optics was blocked. This is to ensure a higher optical sharpness and to illustrate thus HDTV material still more adequately on the canvas.

panny has a new optics block as well - from the sound of it panny is focusing on sharpness

- complete new optics
Opposite the predecessor in the PT-AE2000 a completely new optics was blocked. This is to ensure a higher optical sharpness and to illustrate thus HDTV material still more adequately on the canvas.

"Focusing on sharpness" ... you're not getting away with that pun. ;) .. lol..

But seriously, I think the Epson is leveraging the increase in it's panel contrast by use of the polarizer.

No, I am comlaining that the Pana will probably have less than 2000:1 On/Off native contrast, while the Epson will have 4500:1.


Probably not, but why watch with any light ?



The Pana 1000 already reached up to 3000:1 native with our "ultra"-modification. So lets just wait and see....

Regards,
Ekkehart

Ok, I might check that out tomorrow. As it seems, the TW2000 uses the same chassis and therefore the same airfilter like the TW1000/700/680 etc. etc. which looks, in my opinion, not that trustworthy... we already mentioned that in our TW1000 review...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Hi all,

I have just been to the Epson stand again and the dust blob is definately still there. This time however I got hold of somebody from Epson and got confirmed it was indeed a dust blob on the panels. When I asked him about the anti-dust measures in the projector he told me that "the projector had those and that they were good", but what kind of measures he didn't/couldn't specify. He did add some odd comment: "Well, but at least it's just one blob!". Yeah how comforting after just two and a halve days at IFA! (To be fair all CE companies have trouble with dust on their stands, talked to some about the problems they were having. I really feel bad for companies like Samung having their hall filled with beautifull shiny and big flatpanel displays that attract so much dust, a lot of cleaning going on for the unfortunate stand personell!) Next up I asked him if I could clean the dust off of the panels myself at home if I would have an EMP-TW2000. He replied this wouldn't be possible for general consumers and that the projector would have to be sent in for repair ("But hey, it's got three years of warany", again this wasn't that conforting to me actually...). Then the Epson guy walked up to one of his colleagues and engaged in conversation with him in Geman (I conversed with him in English). He assumed I didn't understand German, which in fact I can very well (although I prefer to speak English over German when the conversation is of a very technical nature). So I oveheard the two talking that I had noticed the dust blob and that he told me that it was only just one blob and I got the intention that he basically had no idea what to respond to my initial question about the dust on the sensor... like they were sort of afraid it was spotted...?

Someone asked me about the picture quality of the EMP-TW2000 at display at IFA. I will very kindly not answer these kinds of questions because a) I find it very difficult to do this (very subjective as well) and b) the viewing conditions weren't very optimal (too much outside light shined on the screen and ruined the contrast quite a bit IMHO). Anyway I still think this will be a very interesting projector, although I'm very concerned about the dust.

Jan Roel

lcd is very sensitive to dust. the design itself

dlp: have had dust on a benq 7700 because the dust entered the optics (on lcd it's panels most often) from the top !

make sure a projector has sealed optics and protected panels-chips.
also after sales services if not well cared, can allow dust when they disassemble the projectors !!! (and boys consumers don't like that !)

I have a feeling I may make a dust box for my projectors from now on. For many people, dust seems to be a constant problem with these projectors.

Although throw isn't too much of an issue with the next room I use as a homw theatre, I wish the lens wasn't designed in such a way that the plastic lens outer ring prevents very close placement of anamorphic lens' . Every mm you get the closer to the lens improves the geometry.

Speaking of lens. I wonder if the TW2000 uses a lens which is identical to the previous TW1000 or is it somewhat improved in any way?

Can we hope that colour uniformity could possibley be better with this D7 lcd panel since it is significantly different than the D6 panels?

Doesn't Sanyo have a dust blob solution for its cheaper projectors, some holes in the case that you can blow air in to?

I assume DLP machines can have a sealed light path because the DLP chips are highly heat resistant and do not need openings to cool them? Is that correct?

IB

Doesn't Sanyo have a dust blob solution for its cheaper projectors, some holes in the case that you can blow air in to?

I assume DLP machines can have a sealed light path because the DLP chips are highly heat resistant and do not need openings to cool them? Is that correct?

IB

I believe the Sanyo does. A hole and a rubber ball air pump. Quite frankly, I have had little trouble cleaning the projectors I have owned. Panasonic AE100 and AE200, a Hitachi TX100 and I cleaned my TX200 twice. Each time, great success, apart from the heart attack you have handling the expensive lcd block! My main issues with LCD projectors are now officially:

1) Colour uniformity or lack there-of
2) Dust-Blobs!
3) Sharpness

:)

My main issues with LCD projectors are now officially:

1) Colour uniformity or lack there-of
2) Dust-Blobs!
3) Sharpness

:)

It is surprising that you mention lack of sharpness. I assume you mean compared to the razor sharp edges of DLP. Do you think 1080 LCD projectors lack sharpness as well? Projector Central often applauds the sharpness of LCD units compared to LCOS projectors.

IB

It is surprising that you mention lack of sharpness. I assume you mean compared to the razor sharp edges of DLP. Do you think 1080 LCD projectors lack sharpness as well? Projector Central often applauds the sharpness of LCD units compared to LCOS projectors.

IB

I mean that the Epson TW1000 looks ever so slightly less sharp vs the Hitachi TX200 I had. Of course, the Eye of Zoron lens of the Hitachi TX200 could have something to do with it. It's a subtley small difference, but I notice it. I noticed the difference in sharpness between my original TX200 and the second unit I got which was excellent.

I think the 1080p lcd units are fairly sharp. I just hope they are improving or staying the same. We'll see. Concern for sharpness was down at 3 on my list.

Ekkehart

Do you know how the iris in the TW2000 is inplemeted? Is itworking together with an variable gamma control? Have you seen the projektor with the auto iris engaged? If so what were your inpression?

Btw,

The US name of the Epson TW2000 is going to be "PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB" (UB for Ultra Black). It is going to be avaiable in December for a MSRP of $2699 USD (so this thread should be moved to the "Below $3000" forum).

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/epson_projector_pumps_1080p_for_under_3k/C157/

Btw,

The US name of the Epson TW2000 is going to be "PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB" (UB for Ultra Black). It is going to be avaiable in December for a MSRP of $2699 USD (so this thread should be moved to the "Below $3000" forum).

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/epson_projector_pumps_1080p_for_under_3k/C157/

Hot Damn :)! My next projector :D!

Anybody hazard a guess whether or not this pj will do a vertical stretch for >16:9 (2.35:1 etc) material and panamorph lens?

I believe the Sanyo does. A hole and a rubber ball air pump. Quite frankly, I have had little trouble cleaning the projectors I have owned. Panasonic AE100 and AE200, a Hitachi TX100 and I cleaned my TX200 twice. Each time, great success, apart from the heart attack you have handling the expensive lcd block! My main issues with LCD projectors are now officially:

1) Colour uniformity or lack there-of
2) Dust-Blobs!
3) Sharpness

:)

Sensitivity to dust always made me feel that my TX200 was fragile. 50,000:1 or not, I will not buy a LCD projector again until they fix the dust issue. If they can put a man on the moon. . .

Sensitivity to dust always made me feel that my TX200 was fragile. 50,000:1 or not, I will not buy a LCD projector again until they fix the dust issue. If they can put a man on the moon. . .

You can put inside a filtered hushbox.

You can put inside a filtered hushbox.


Why bother when there are other alternatives where that is not necessary? Why not just fix the problem?

Anybody hazard a guess whether or not this pj will do a vertical stretch for >16:9 (2.35:1 etc) material and panamorph lens?

Considering they have a Panamorph add-on option, I'd wager that it will. Whether or not it requires the HQV video processor add-on option, or not, remains to be seen.

Why bother when there are other alternatives where that is not necessary? Why not just fix the problem?

Because I see no alternatives with similar quality for the same price point (without rainbows).

They retracted the $2,699 price I hear. Watch it end up in this forum.

The retracted the $2,699 price I hear. Watch it end up in this forum.

Yeah, what a bummer !!!,

Panasonic/Mitsubishi/Sanyo have extremely inferior 1080p LCD projectors this year, and without the Powerlite UB costing an arm and a leg, they simply won't be able to compete. Epson as their LCD panel supplier, had to give up to the pressure (unless they want to jeopardize their business relations with those companies) .

I found a Japanese website with more elaborate information about the TW2000. I'll quote and show key images:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070904/ep1_08.jpg

As for the panel D7/C 2 Fine of the new generation where strengthening such as improvement of numerical aperture and 12bit conversion of the liquid crystaldriveris assured. It improves new optical engine "OptiFocus", loading the phase compensating technology "DEEPBLACK" of individual development. An optical leak from the liquid crystal panel was controlled thoroughly, contrast ratio 50,000:1 (at the time of automatic iris ON) actualized with dynamic mode.

As for DEEPBLACK, by the fact that the phase compensator is arranged anew inside the optical engine, after transmitting the liquid crystal panel, controlling the elliptically polarized light of light. By the fact that the ideal vertical polarized light is created, it decreases an optical leak substantially, it is the highest contrast ratio that the model (EMP-TW1000) it improved until recently from 12,000:1 up to 50,000:1.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070904/ep1_12.jpg

The lens with optical 2.1 time zoom (F2.0 - 3.17), top and bottom 96%, corresponds to the lens shift the left and right 47%. Projection size with 30 type - 300 types, can do the projection of 100 types from the distance of 3m. The basic design of optical system until recently has followed the model, but besides the fact that DEEPBLACK new was loaded, adopting new algorithm concerning the automatic iris. The automatic iris to perceive the brightness of image at 1/60 second unit, the automatic control the contraction. Contrast efficiency is raised.

In addition, the "New Epson cinema filter" is loaded, with improvement of color reappearance efficiency, contrast is raised. It loads also individual color management technology "Color RealityIII". Color temperature control of 11 stages to custom gamma adjustment and 5,000K - 10,000K is possible. In addition, anew, each color of R (red) /G (green) /B (blue) /C (cyanide) /M (マゼンダ) /Y (yellow) can be adjusted loaded also "6 axial color adjustment" from hue/chroma/the lightness.

It corresponds to also x.v.Color, picture quality mode the dynamic/prepares 7 of living/natural/theater/theater black 1 theater black 2/x.v.Color.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070904/ep1_13.jpg

The retracted the $2,699 price I hear. Watch it end up in this forum.

Any further info about this?

Those are interesting pics and quotes Jones_Rush :)

I have a question regarding this image:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070904/ep1_12.jpg

In DEEPBLACK, the light that exits the LCD panel, is polarized on the Y axis. Then, it hits an X axis polarizer, and hence no light suppose to get by, and you get deep black.

My question is, what happens when the LCD tries to show an image other than 0 ire black ?, the light exiting the LCD panel will still be polarized on the Y axis, and when it will hit the X axis polarizer, again you won't get anything on the screen, no ?. So how can the LCD panel project anything that can get passed the X axis polarizer ?, I'm definitely missing something, though I can't see what...

I'm not sure based upon the pic above, but there shouldn't be a polarizer after the LCD panel. The panel acts as the polarizer. My guess is that in the image above the x-axis polarizer is actually representative of the panel itself, rather than a physically separate piece.

It makes sense to think of the panels logically as a phase-change piece and a variable angle linear polarizer. The phase change piece was the part causing the poor contrast performance performance, since the elliptical polarization allowed light to leak through the panels. By introducing a phase-change piece to compensate for this effect you ensure that the light coming out is linearly polarized, and much more effectively blocked.

Just the edumacated guess of an average US American.

Mike

This race for on off contrast is ridiculous
they should now concentrate on ANSI contrast but this is where the train stops: DLP is the only technology with massive (3-4x more) ansi contrast vs lcd, lcos.
DLP has negative sides too but the topic is contrast ratio.

Amen, brother...

CRT projectors have horrible ANSI contrast, yet most will agree a calibrated G90 is still the king of PQ...

Here is a video of the TW2000 at IFA:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2x81a_epson-tw2000-at-ifa-2007_videogames

Damn, Epson sure seems confident about their lamp's function ! (2000 hours or 3 year warranty)

this race for on off contrast is ridiculous
they should now concentrate on ANSI contrast but this is where the train stops: DLP is the only technology with massive (3-4x more) ansi contrast vs lcd, lcos.

DLP has negative sides too but the topic is contrast ratio.
Where do you get a 3-4X ANSI CR advantage for DLP? Even my lowly Sony AW15 (720p) was measured as 250:1. I think the SXRD and LCOS projectors get about the same, if not a bit higher at like 275:1. Last time I checked, only the very best DLPs get 600:1 while most get 500:1 or less. I've never heard of a DLP getting 750:1, let alone 1000:1.

I wonder if that huge jump in native On/Off contrast from 1000:1 to 4500:1, will also translate to some jump in ANSI contrast from 250:1 to something higher.

Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond :p

Here is a video of the TW2000 at IFA:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2x81a_epson-tw2000-at-ifa-2007_videogames

Damn, Epson sure seems confident about their lamp's function ! (2000 hours or 3 year warranty)

I think that a lot of their confidence in the lamp, comes from that fact it's only a 170W lamp. Many projectors use much higher wattage lamps. No matter what's the lamp's efficiency, when the scene is dark, almost all of the lamp's wattage turns to heat inside the projector !

Lower wattage lamps have died sooner and more often than 2000 hours, so it's all in the design of the bulb AND the projector I suppose. Who knows, but you cannot argue with the warranty. I think it's awesome. Buy the projector, sit back, and use it for a good 2 or 3 years and enjoy. Unless of course you have upgraditis disease. It's also nice to see good brightness and life without more watts. It's true that most of the 170 watts is space heating. Unfortunately, the lamp design isn't that good yet. I am looking forward to when lamps become very efficient indeed. Cooler, easier on the rest of the projector and less electricity use.

Here's some English including hopefully a downloadable brochure soon. The link just has the old stuff right now. There are some details and specs.

http://www.epson-europe.com/internetLive/dctm/content/EU/en_GB/products/video_projectors/EU_Product_Model_EMPTW2000_EN.inter.jsp

Why the 12 bit panels but only 10 bit processing?

Did I hear correctly on the video that she said the price would be $3500 EUR??? Which is about $4800 US dollars?? What happened to the $2699 price??

For that much, I think I'd rather go with an RS1.

On a side note, the TW1000 had a 1700h/3y lamp warranty here, so it's great to see that they've extended it a little and also made it worldwide.

Did I hear correctly on the video that she said the price would be $3500 EUR??? Which is about $4800 US dollars?? What happened to the $2699 price??3500EUR here and $2699 there, isn't it fair. :(

But you have to remember that all prices quoted in euros have ~20%VAT included. That and a small "Europe extra" results in the usual 1:1 euro to usd ratio in prices.

Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond :p

With a LiFi bulb? That would be cool.

"My question is, what happens when the LCD tries to show an image other than 0 ire black?"

The LCD itself changes polarization.

"My question is, what happens when the LCD tries to show an image other than 0 ire black?"

The LCD itself changes polarization.

Finally, some sense :-)

So, when an LCD pixel wants to produce 0 IRE black, it changes the polarization of light to the Y axis (to smash against the forward X axis polarizer) ?

What I still don't understand, is how can the LCD changes the polarization to the X axis, if there shoudn't be any light at the X axis to begin with (since the first polarizer only let light on the Y axis to pass)

The optics let only one polarization pass; the LCD can polarize either way or in between.

The optics let only one polarization pass; the LCD can polarize either way or in between.

It works like this:

Lamp => Y axis polarizer => LCD => X axis polarizer.

If you want to create 0 IRE - the LCD should allow only light on the Y axis to pass. This should work because the X axis polarizer will get rid of this light.

If you want to create 100 IRE - I don't understand how this will work. if the LCD lets only light on the X axis pass, this wouldn't work, because there isn't any light on the X axis hitting the LCD (the first polarizer took care of it).

This model can only work, if the LCD can take light on the Y axis, and actively change its polarization to the X axis. This is the only way I can see in order to make light from the lamp, go past the X axis polarizer.

If the model was:

Lamp => Y axis polarizer => LCD

In this case, without the X-axis polarizer in front of the LCD, the LCD could work as a normal polarizer, and everything will make sense (at 0 IRE it let only light on the X axis to pass, and at 100 IRE it let only light on the Y axis to pass).

Nice find! Wow that 2000hr / 3yr lamp warranty is VERY interesting. I wonder how pana (you can watch the projector for 10 minutes every week) sonic respond :p

When we have installed small Epsons (non-HT units), their build quality has always proved to be pretty robust. And since our use is typically 16 hours days, 365 a year, it is rather obvious when projectors don' tmeet that standard.

I would imagine their HT targeted units share that characteristic.

BB

i really wish I could gather some reliable info on this unit. It is a very interesting projector that may very well be the "dark horse" of the show and provide a great picture for a fraction of the cost of some of the "more popular" contenders. My main concerns are in regard to ANSI contrast and lumens output in highest contrast mode and of course white field uniformity. With its full CMS I am confident that it will be able to deliver very accurate colors or at least have the ability to be dialed in properly.

This is a very interesting unit indeed!

Hello here is some information from the Japanese pages on the new Epson in Japanese.

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio/emptw2000/

It looks like it is has the possibility to adjust to right colors (both grayscale and gamut (full CMS)) and an adjustable gamma curve. Maybe JVC should hire some engineers from Epson : - )

For those that do not read Japanese (like me) here is a link to a translation tool…

Http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

PS Click into the eight "sub pages" to get a description of the features in more detail.

i really wish I could gather some reliable info on this unit. It is a very interesting projector that may very well be the "dark horse" of the show and provide a great picture for a fraction of the cost of some of the "more popular" contenders. My main concerns are in regard to ANSI contrast and lumens output in highest contrast mode and of course white field uniformity. With its full CMS I am confident that it will be able to deliver very accurate colors or at least have the ability to be dialed in properly.

This is a very interesting unit indeed!
I agree Bob. I'd also like to add dust concerns and throw distance to your list (sorry if I missed this somewhere).

What I cannot understand is why the colour uniformity adjustments like those of the Hitachi TX100/200/300 are not readily and obviously available. They were quite useful on the Hitachi.

Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself :) )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?

Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself :) )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?

I'd say # 5 and #8 are up there on my list of concerns. #6 is also a concern to me. I want a projector that stays dust free for a long time for several reasons. A) I hate taking projectors apart to clean them as it is very stressful handling expensive projector internals. It's easy, I've done it many times, but handling the lcd block etc etc is not my idea of fun. B) I'm lazy, and when I see dust blobs, I get angry because it's usually right when I've turned the projector on to sit down and watch a dvd. Especially when I have people over. Either I explain away the dust blobs or delay watching until I've cleaned the dust blobs. Extremely annoying! C) Taking apart the projector is not an easy option when you risk voiding a very nice 2 or 3 year warranty!

Anyhow, at least it's nice to know that screen door, peak-a-boo scan lines and vertical banding are a thing of the past. The black levels and contrast of the D6 1080 lcd's was very very good, so if we get a nice big jump in contrast and blacks this time, instead of another small incremental improvement, it would be awesome. I just hope the colour uniformity and sharpness are both top notch, and that the pj stays free of dust longer.

Also, does anyone think is there is any indication that the lens of the TW2000 is improved over the TW1000? They describe a nice lens, and the TW1000 is fairly good, but there is no comparison with the TW1000 and the sharpness discussion appears to describe digital adjustments and not the glass lens. They do mention a sharp lens with low chromatic aberations, which is a potentially good thing, but is this a new lens or the same as on the TW1000?

Did I read correctly that US price will be around $2,600? I was looking at the Optoma HD80 so far,but this one should be better,right?

I'd say # 5 and #8 are up there on my list of concerns. #6 is also a concern to me. I want a projector that stays dust free for a long time for several reasons. A) I hate taking projectors apart to clean them as it is very stressful handling expensive projector internals. It's easy, I've done it many times, but handling the lcd block etc etc is not my idea of fun. B) I'm lazy, and when I see dust blobs, I get angry because it's usually right when I've turned the projector on to sit down and watch a dvd. Especially when I have people over. Either I explain away the dust blobs or delay watching until I've cleaned the dust blobs. Extremely annoying! C) Taking apart the projector is not an easy option when you risk voiding a very nice 2 or 3 year warranty!


I concur. While I can fix the dust problem, I don't want to have to take my PJ apart every month to clean it... nor do I want to void the warranty in doing so.

At this point, this PJ is leading the pack for my next PJ purchase. With that said, I'm starting to think I'll wait until Jan. or Feb to buy something so I can see all the new comers and see how reliable they are. Since I have several other PJs, I'm in no rush to be disappointed again like I was with my RS1.

UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS
-excellent shadow detail
-pristine color fidelity
-detailed image
-better blacks, shadow detail and contrast than non-UB

Just so people don't misunderstand, when I said "reliable info" I am not questioning the observations of those who have seen it. I just would like to have some field measurements of actual units rather than to go by the manufacturer's published specs. The numbers being tossed around by Epson are pretty ridiculous, but if the 2000 measures even half of what they claim it should make for a very nice picture. As mentioned the key elements here will be:

1. actual on/off CR (with and without iris)
2. effectiveness of the iris (can you see it working?)
3. ANSI contrast (generally a weak point with LCD)
4. actual lumens output at max contrast and D65
5. white field uniformity and its ability to maintain it over time (my past LCDs went out the window after about 1500 to 2000 hours)
6. dust blobs (though I have no fear of taking it apart and cleaning it myself :) )
7. throw distance (though historically LCDs have been VERY flexible both vertically and horizontally)
8. sharpness (not usually a problem except with Panasonics)
9. color accuracy (if CMS works properly it is a non issue)

Anything else?

BTW, when is this supposed to be released?

1. Claimed to be 4500:1 ref Cine4Home (but not mesured by them)
2. Same iris as the TW1000 (said to be visible)
5. I have heard that the new inorgaic panels are better in this area.
6. Same housing and lens as the TW1000 what are the experiences on that one (think it is not a major issue from what I have read).
7. Info on this is availible in the japanese pages refered to earlyer.
9. The CMS on the TW1000 have a good track record this is an inprooved version.

I think this can be a winner even in Norway where we have to pay $5500 for it... (the RS1 is $10.300.)

1. Claimed to be 4500:1 ref Cine4Home (but not mesured by them)
2. Same iris as the TW1000 (said to be visible)
5. I have heard that the new inorgaic panels are better in this area.
6. Same housing and lens as the TW1000 what are the experiences on that one (think it is not a major issue from what I have read).
7. Info on this is availible in the japanese pages refered to earlyer.
9. The CMS on the TW1000 have a good track record this is an inprooved version.

I think this can be a winner even in Norway where we have to pay $5500 for it... (the RS1 is $10.300.)

1. iirc Cine4home quoted what the engineers said when cine4home asked about native contrast ratio.
6. I found the optics for the TW1000 were ok, but not razor sharp. Sometimes I feel it appears slightly less sharp than my previous Hitachi TX200 for SD-DVD, but it's a tiny amount. Could just be zoom or difference in appearance of 720p vs 1080p.

UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS
-excellent shadow detail
-pristine color fidelity
-detailed image
-better blacks, shadow detail and contrast than non-UB

No link?

UltimateAV-
-blacks excellent but not as good as DLP or LCOS


The best DLPs and LCOS have native contrast much higher than 4500:1, so I'm not surprised. Still, 4500:1 is a huge step forward.

I still hope the Epson UB is at least better than the Optoma HD80, when it comes to black levels (without dynamic iris).

The best DLPs and LCOS have native contrast much higher than 4500:1, so I'm not surprised. Still, 4500:1 is a huge step forward.

A lot of the DLPs in this price range fall 4000:1, if they can maintain close to the native 4500:1 of the panels, then Epson should be sitting pretty. With resonable brightness, the DLPs seem to be sitting around 3000:1, but they can achieve 4000:1 with super-low brightness. However, when you add in high-ANSI of DLPs, things get more interesting, and it isn't so easy to compare.

However, when you add in high-ANSI of DLPs, things get more interesting, and it isn't so easy to compare.

I think that the older Home Cinema 1080, already did 250:1 ANSI contrast. Isn't it possible that with 4X the On/Off contrast, the UB version will also do 2X the ANSI contrast ? (which will put it at 500:1 ANSI contrast, just like most of the DLPs in this price range)

I read earlier this projector does not do 1080/24 correctly. It takes the signal and converts it to 1080/60 just like the other one does and they are trying to support 1080/24 before release. I understand now why they were thinking of selling it for such a low price. This thing is no officially off my list of possible upgrades. Here is a link to the story!


http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2007/90807epson/

The projector still accepts 1080p/24 and displays it at 1080p/60, but I was told that a multiple of 24p might be avaialble by the time the projector ships in December at a price under $5K

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/cedia2007/90807epson/

The projector still accepts 1080p/24 and displays it at 1080p/60, but I was told that a multiple of 24p might be avaialble by the time the projector ships in December at a price under $5K

So the firmware update will cost $2K USD ?, lol.

I think that the older Home Cinema 1080, already did 250:1 ANSI contrast. Isn't it possible that with 4X the On/Off contrast, the UB version will also do 2X the ANSI contrast ? (which will put it at 500:1 ANSI contrast, just like most of the DLPs in this price range)

No. The results of Epson's new polarization technique is similar to JVC's results when they applied the new technology to the RS1. This resulted in no change in ANSI contrast, but a significant boost in on/off. I would expect the same for the Espon.

So the firmware update will cost $2K USD ?, lol.

NO @#$%! lol...:D

Depending on what these units street for I might pick one up anyway. It just seems too interesting to pass it by without at least measuring it and putting it to the test with an ISCO III on a 139" wide screen. If it looks good under those conditions it should look great on more normal sized setups...:)

No. The results of Epson's new polarization technique is similar to JVC's results when they applied the new technology to the RS1. This resulted in no change in ANSI contrast, but a significant boost in on/off. I would expect the same for the Espon.
JVC increased their ANSI CR from ~100:1 on their prior 1080p platform the HD2K to ~300:1 on the RS1!

Did I read correctly that US price will be around $2,600 ?
?

Did I read correctly that US price will be around $2,600 ?

It's up in the air. It was supposedly going to be $2600.00 but then somebody said Epson retracted that MSRP. I guess we just wait and see. I hope it comes out a little sooner than December for North America. I've got a new home theatre room to use this winter and have the long dark nights to play. :)

Yeah I wanna build an HT somewhere between christmas and april..I dont wanna spend over $3k on a projector,cause that would hurt the audio gear that I need the rest of the money for,I hope this pj wont be out of my reach.

Pricing on this one will really make it, or break it. If they price it below $3k as originally reported, this PJ could be incredibly popular. On the other hand, this is still a LCD PJ and if it comes in well over $3k I think sales will be somewhat sluggish. I've told myself I'd never buy another LCD PJ, but for under $3k I think I'd give this LCD a second chance.

JVC increased their ANSI CR from ~100:1 on their prior 1080p platform the HD2K to ~300:1 on the RS1!

Hmm, I was under the impression that the ANSI for LCOS was sitting at around 250:1, and hasn't really changed at all.

I read somewhere that the price on the Epson will be $5k. The Mits 6000is $4k. The Panasonic 2000 is $6k. The Sanyo 2000 is $3k.

I read somewhere that the price on the Epson will be $5k.

I heard MSRP $3K :)

Hello,

I spoke with the Texas Epson rep today MSRP on this projector is 5k. This is very reliable information.

rmlowz

I spoke with the Texas Epson rep today MSRP on this projector is 5k. This is very reliable information.

rmlowz

Scratch off list.

Next.

Ditto! Off my list as well!!!

At $5K list this projector better street for $2.5K-$3K

I read somewhere that the price on the Epson will be $5k. The Mits 6000is $4k. The Panasonic 2000 is $6k. The Sanyo 2000 is $3k.
Epson has decided to keep the 1080UB in this forum, and not the "under $3000" forum! If anyone here wants to go slumming in the "under $3000" forum, there are a few relevant threads. "According to the Epson reps at the 3LCD event here in Denver, only the upcoming Epson 1080UB (for "Ultimate Black" by the way), the Sanyo PLV-Z2000, and the Panasonic PTA-AE2000 are based on the D7 3LCD panel. The Mitsubishi (and others?) are still using the prior generation of panel." http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11567552&posted=1#post11567552 I see the Sanyo PLV-Z2000 at kakaku for 360,000 yen MSRP.

Scratch off list.

Next.

I agree 100% IF it streets for close to $5k. I just won't pay that kind of money for LCD... I don't care if it has D10 panels.

On the other hand, if it streets at $3k or less I'm interested. At $2500 or less I'll blind buy one for a replacement for our BR PJ.

Hello,

I spoke with the Texas Epson rep today MSRP on this projector is 5k. This is very reliable information.

rmlowz
At anywhere near $5K wouldn't this pj be dead in the water. The only
thing I can think of is that there will be a new Pro vs Home edition with
the latter under $3K.

In Japan you can already buy the Epson 1080p UB, for $3000 USD. So there is no point that in the US the price will be $5K in December (when in Japan it will probably be by then $2500).

Is anyone else getting tired of the, "it better be less than $xxxx.xx" posts? I mean literally every time a new projector is announced on this website there are immediately several posts bickering over what price the projector will be or should be at.

In Japan you can already buy the Epson 1080p UB, for $3000 USD. So there is no point that in the US the price will be $5K in December (when in Japan it will probably be by then $2500).
I want to believe this... I'd be happy to be proved wrong on this... But ATM all I see is the Sanyo has entered the database (http://kakaku.com/item/00885511015/) but just the list price of 360,000 yen, since nobody is selling it yet. The Sanyo LP-Z2000 is rumored to be the first D7 out of the gate but even that is not yet available in Japan.

Is anyone else getting tired of the, "it better be less than $xxxx.xx" posts? I mean literally every time a new projector is announced on this website there are immediately several posts bickering over what price the projector will be or should be at.


Isn't this why we have forums in the first place?



For everyone else who wants more information the version they are selling in December is the "Pro" version. I believe the cheaper version will be the "HC" version like they did last year.


http://www.cepro.com/article/epson_america_unveils_second_generation_1080p_projector_at_c edia_expo_2007/K346

Is anyone else getting tired of the, "it better be less than $xxxx.xx" posts? I mean literally every time a new projector is announced on this website there are immediately several posts bickering over what price the projector will be or should be at. It is a little tiresome, but in this case, in this thread, Epson itself has managed to confuse everyone including themselves as to their new model lineup and what their MSRPs are. When you think about everything engineering and manufacturing has to go through to ship a new projector, is too much to ask for marketing to get their playbook straight and put out a 2 page press release that's accurate? Get with the program guys. Or maybe that is the program, they're trained to create many different sub markets and confusing terminology...

Isn't this why we have forums in the first place?

Actually it is my understanding that AVS is supposed to be a technology focused site, not a price one like Fatwallet or a million others.

Look, I understand the price is a very important factor but I used to be able to visit AVS, click on a thread about a new or upcoming projector and get loads of information about specs, throw distances, user reviews, technical issues etc. Now when I click on a thread there is one post announcing the launch of a new product followed by seveal dozen posts bickering about the price.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about price at all but it seems to have taken over this forum (at least this section of the forum).

And by the way, if you think Epson USA will rescind their initial launch plans and lower the new Home 1080UB street price to $2000 because some guy on AVS said so you're not dealing in reality.

edit: Toe Tag makes some very good points about this particular case

I think Epson is an innocent bystander – when did they officially state a price and then change it? Have they even officially stated a price?

What confused everybody is “insider information” prices reported on various home theater Web sites. Where the insider information came from is anybody’s guess – from somebody working in the ship out department, maybe? Remember, just because you read it on the Internet does not mean it is true, even if you want it to be true.

The idea that they raised the price on this projector after other manufacturers objected is the invention of an AVS member.

Actually it is my understanding that AVS is supposed to be a technology focused site, not a price one like Fatwallet or a million others.

Look, I understand the price is a very important factor but I used to be able to visit AVS, click on a thread about a new or upcoming projector and get loads of information about specs, throw distances, user reviews, technical issues etc. Now when I click on a thread there is one post announcing the launch of a new product followed by seveal dozen posts bickering about the price.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about price at all but it seems to have taken over this forum (at least this section of the forum).

And by the way, if you think Epson USA will rescind their initial launch plans and lower the new Home 1080UB street price to $2000 because some guy on AVS said so you're not dealing in reality.

edit: Toe Tag makes some very good points about this particular case

Well seeing as how no reviewers have their hands on the new units...price seems to be fair game in terms of discussion.

Actually it is my understanding that AVS is supposed to be a technology focused site, not a price one like Fatwallet or a million others.

Look, I understand the price is a very important factor but I used to be able to visit AVS, click on a thread about a new or upcoming projector and get loads of information about specs, throw distances, user reviews, technical issues etc. Now when I click on a thread there is one post announcing the launch of a new product followed by seveal dozen posts bickering about the price.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about price at all but it seems to have taken over this forum (at least this section of the forum).

And by the way, if you think Epson USA will rescind their initial launch plans and lower the new Home 1080UB street price to $2000 because some guy on AVS said so you're not dealing in reality.

edit: Toe Tag makes some very good points about this particular case


I agree. It makes perfect sense. Still unless they start supporting 1080/24 without converting it back to 1080/60 they won't sell very many.

In Japan you can already buy the Epson 1080p UB, for $3000 USD. So there is no point that in the US the price will be $5K in December (when in Japan it will probably be by then $2500).
You are correct it is already on kakaku.com but it is not available yet. The resellers are simply taking orders at this point.

http://kakaku.com/item/00881511022/

(It actually translates pretty well with Google.) Once the status changes to "Possession" you know they have them in Japan and the US should be about a month behind.

US pricing for Epson stuff is usually the Yen amount divided by 100 (obviously related to but not exactly the exchange rate). That means it is going to start at about $3500 in the US hopefully.

-Mr. Wigggles

Interesting. I suppose all we can do is watch Japan for price and availability. Do we suffer like this every September?

http://kakaku.com/item/00881511022/ Epson dreamio EMP-TW2000 "late Nov."
http://kakaku.com/item/00885511015/ Sanyo LP-Z2000(W) "Nov. 1"
http://kakaku.com/item/00884511023/ Pansonic TH-AE2000 Oct. 29 (may lack English menus and 220V)

Sometimes the mostly-the-same projector has slightly different model numbers in different regions.

To quash any rumors, the above 3 are the only ones with D7 panels, per an Epson rep in another thread. Also from another thread "The Mitsubishi HD-6000 is a tweeked D6 panel machine..."

http://kakaku.com/item/00884511024/ AX-200 (720p) Oct. 29 (may lack English menus and 220V)

And remember... "Being the user register unnecessary, simplicity! Being able to verify the amount with estimate, Mail it is relief!"

I agree. It makes perfect sense. Still unless they start supporting 1080/24 without converting it back to 1080/60 they won't sell very many.

It supports 2:2 pulldon in 1080/24

JVC increased their ANSI CR from ~100:1 on their prior 1080p platform the HD2K to ~300:1 on the RS1!

Any update on the ANSI contrast of the Epson TW2000? :confused:

According to Projectorcentral.com's hands on preview,

You'd think that with a contrast rating of 50,000:1, the most striking aspect of the demo would be spectacular contrast. Not so...

http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2007.htm

It supports 2:2 pulldon in 1080/24

No it takes the signal and then converts it back to 1080/60. I did an earlier post with this information and a link as well. Check it out for yourself!!

That does seem difficult to overcome from pre-production to production versions. But you never know. So if they solve that you may still be in then FiveMillionWays?

No it takes the signal and then converts it back to 1080/60. I did an earlier post with this information and a link as well. Check it out for yourself!!

If you read info from the info from Cine4home.de (http://www.cine4home.de/index2.htm) and various persons posting on scandinavian sites that after talking with epson engineers in Japan have confirmed that it does 2:2 pulldown and shows it in 96 hz on the screen. Here is a babelfish translation from the german site (have also been reported erlyer in this tread (so there is maby more of us that should do some checking:- )

"As already described the main advantages of the new EMP-TW2000 lie particularly in the clearly increased contrast, which is to break the 50,000:1 mark for the first time by means of the adaptive screen. All other technical characteristics as well as the operation were maintained, so that no large changes are to be expected here. A few Boni keeps however still ready the TW2000: On the connection side it offers now a second HDMI entrance (likewise HDMI 1,3), so that also without switching box now several digital sources can be attached. Besides the user can select signal now with fed 1080/24p whether he the film ruckelfrei with 2:2 Pulldown in 48Hz and/or 96Hz on the canvas wants to enjoy, or after conventional 3:2 Pulldown in 60Hz. particularly worth mentioning is besides the support of the new xv-Farbraumes, a new video standard initiated by Sony, which an increased and so that is to ensure cinemanear color area. Is still unclear, when it ever software, speak features, after which will give new standard on the market, but is prepared nevertheless the TW2000 here for all eventualities."


From the Japanese Epson Page also a Babelfish translation:

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio/emptw2000/

"Vis-a-vis the 24fps image signal, past to "2-3 in addition pull-down", in the same 1 seconds as the movie film image it indicates in EMP-TW2000 with 24 scenes "2-2 to load pull-down" function, it corresponded to 24p direct output. Tasting only the film to enjoy deep image, you recommend."

I understand that the TW1000 or the Non UB model is not handling 24fps coerect but I i'm really confident that the new model handle this in a better matter....

Quote:
You'd think that with a contrast rating of 50,000:1, the most striking aspect of the demo would be spectacular contrast. Not so...
http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2007.htm

I don't know if it was your intention, but that sure looks like an out-of-context cheap shot.

He says that it's the XLNT color that grabs your attention.

Why not just post the full quote: - )


Epson Powerlite Cinema Home 1080 UB

Rated at up to 50,000:1 contrast including the action of the dynamic iris, the 1080 UB projector is without a doubt the finest video projector yet developed by Epson. In addition to high potential contrast, it has a high 1600 ANSI lumen brightness rating as well. The Home and Pro versions are the same projector, but packaged differently, with different warranties and accessories, to be sold through different channels. These models are scheduled for shipment in December, so pricing is not yet announced. However, the Pro version will be under $5,000, and the Home version will be quite a bit less than the Pro model.

You'd think that with a contrast rating of 50,000:1, the most striking aspect of the demo would be spectacular contrast. Not so, believe it or not. Contrast and black levels were indeed solid and impressive, but it was the magnificent natural color that was truly captivating. Of course, there is no way to quantify natural color quality on a spec sheet, so it will go unnoticed by those shopping via spec sheets. But the fact is that having seen the demo, if I were to buy an Epson 1080 UB for my own theater, I'd buy it more for its exceptional color than its ample contrast.

Contrast and black levels were indeed solid and impressive, but it was the magnificent natural color that was truly captivating. Of course, there is no way to quantify natural color quality on a spec sheet, so it will go unnoticed by those shopping via spec sheets. But the fact is that having seen the demo, if I were to buy an Epson 1080 UB for my own theater, I'd buy it more for its exceptional color than its ample contrast.All due to the redesigned 3-D CMS that this PJ includes. I'm looking forward to seeing one.

Quote:
You'd think that with a contrast rating of 50,000:1, the most striking aspect of the demo would be spectacular contrast. Not so...
http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2007.htm

I don't know if it was your intention, but that sure looks like an out-of-context cheap shot.

He says that it's the XLNT color that grabs your attention.Epson would not show the projector with the dynamic iris on. I asked what the CR was with the iris fixed and was told that on/off CR is a bogus spec. I decided not to bite my tongue and said that it does matter, but we could move on. Then I talked to the guy doing the demo and gave him some information about where my article is that explains why both on/off CR and ANSI CR matter. He sounded interested in reading it. I let him know that if he finds things he thinks are wrong in it then he is welcome to let me know and I provided him my email address. This is the article I was referring to:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/feature-article-contrast-ratio-5-2006-part-1.html

As far as Evan's comments at projectorcenter:
Consumer Alert No. 1: With the latest advances in contrast, the contrast rating on a projector is becoming less significant as a buying factor for most consumers. In order to get the full benefit of a projector that is capable of 30,000:1 contrast or more, it needs to be viewed in a pitch black room with no reflective surfaces.while I agree that CR differences are becoming less of an issue for most people as they get much higher, on/off CR improvement matters even in rooms with white walls, as long as there isn't other lighting killing the CR. The main reason it matters is because of dark scenes without a lot of bright stuff to bounce around the room and wash out the image anyway.

--Darin

Quote:
You'd think that with a contrast rating of 50,000:1, the most striking aspect of the demo would be spectacular contrast. Not so...
http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2007.htm

I don't know if it was your intention, but that sure looks like an out-of-context cheap shot.

He says that it's the XLNT color that grabs your attention.

I was just teasing ;-)

I still think it would have been more exciting if he would have been more impressed with black levels, than with color accuracy. I never knew color accuracy is such a limiting factor in LCD projectors, and moreover, that improving it will help the picture more than a dramatic increase in contrast/black levels. Something doesn't feel right.

Hey Darin, how was the ANSI contrast? Could you provide a guess as to how good it was in comparison to some of the DLP and LCOS offerings?

Everyone is talking about the 50,000:1 contrast ratio and such but these numbers will only be reachable in the brightest dynamic mode which is completely unsuitable for movie viewing with a wacked out grayscale, gamma, and cie chart. I'll be interested to see what the actual D65 contrast ratio will be when calibrated.

Moe

Everyone is talking about the 50,000:1 contrast ratio and such but these numbers will only be reachable in the brightest dynamic mode which is completely unsuitable for movie viewing with a wacked out grayscale, gamma, and cie chart. I'll be interested to see what the actual D65 contrast ratio will be when calibrated.

You can say the same about the claims of Mitsubishi/Panasonic/Sanyo to ~15,000:1 dynamic On/Off contrast. As long as the Epson has 3X the CR than the rest of the LCD competitors, that's its real advantage.

I think the Epsons have more brightness and contrast exageration than the others. The calibrated brightness always seems to be a smaller fraction of the brightest. Going by what cine4home said about the tw1000 (and my own suppositions) I guess the E-ToRL bulb is further from white than other bulbs. It's bright for 170W, but only because it kicks out so much green. Once you turn that down the advantage disappears.

If I understand cine4home correctly though, and you are prepared to accept a lower "brightest" level, then you can get much of the contrast back with a suitable filter. This relieves the LCD of the job of reigning in the green, and liberates the full dynamic range. I've only just realised what those crafty Germasn have been doing all along, so sorry for being so slow. But if they are right, then maybe the tw2000 would indeed be capable of around 50k:1 with the right filter.

Any views?

nick

You can say the same about the claims of Mitsubishi/Panasonic/Sanyo to ~15,000:1 dynamic On/Off contrast. As long as the Epson has 3X the CR than the rest of the LCD competitors, that's its real advantage.

Sure. All I'm saying is that this projector's max contrast and what most viewers will actually be watching on screen will be vastly different. As to the notion of using a filter to capture most of the native contrast that idea is good in theory but if you look at the Cine4home TW1000 review from last year you will see that all of the high brightness modes had such horrific color gamut charts that they didn't even bother to try and filter mod that model.

Moe

I hope this projector is sharper than the TW1000. Is there any indication that the lens is improved over the TW1000? Or am I still dealing with an imagined difference in optics between my "home" 1080 vs the "pro". I know. They're supposed to have identical lens, but I recall previous gen projectors having inferior lens on the lesser models (same resolution projector).

When will this projector come out in Japan, HK, Europe and North America?

Does anyone have more insight into when Epson is actually going to announce the final official pricing? Also, is December a real date? If so, any thoughts on dealer stock being avaialble Dec 1st vs the the end of the month?

Man I'd sure like to buy one of these puppies right now.

Thanks!

bradesp

Everything on pricing seems to have settled at $5K. BUT, I believe this is for the Pro version. If Epson is consistent with the Pro/Home pricing on the TW1000, the Home TW2000 should be $4k.

Another source for price in Japan
Price Japan:
WorldWideWeb.***************/front/e_good_info.php?code=428&category=11

Another source for price in Japan
Price Japan: http://www.price-japan.com/front/e_good_info.php?code=428&category=11
remove the - after price here /\

So they're saying less than $3400 and releasing after Nov.20?

So they're saying less than $3400 and releasing after Nov.20?

No. They're saying the current lowest price is $2950 USD (not including shipping), and that it will go lower when it will be ready to ship.

I think Epson USA is simply a non-profit organisation dedicated to helping the Japanese economy, by doing whatever they can to harness US citizens to import from Japan. Simplest explanation.

I think the Epsons have more brightness and contrast exageration than the others. The calibrated brightness always seems to be a smaller fraction of the brightest. Going by what cine4home said about the tw1000 (and my own suppositions) I guess the E-ToRL bulb is further from white than other bulbs. It's bright for 170W, but only because it kicks out so much green. Once you turn that down the advantage disappears.

If I understand cine4home correctly though, and you are prepared to accept a lower "brightest" level, then you can get much of the contrast back with a suitable filter. This relieves the LCD of the job of reigning in the green, and liberates the full dynamic range. I've only just realised what those crafty Germasn have been doing all along, so sorry for being so slow. But if they are right, then maybe the tw2000 would indeed be capable of around 50k:1 with the right filter.


nick


Agreed, it might be capable of 50K:1 with filters but will it still be of any practical use, or will beating it to death with a filter knock the light output so far down that it can only light up a 60 inch screen...it will be interesting to see. I think it will be interesting to see which ridiculous spec'd pjs this year can't even reporduce the contrast that the RS1 was doing last year...~20K:1 native according to the Germans.
Any views?

Pre pro exaple of the TW2000 is showing in Stocholm this weekend (http://www.component.se/bannersrc/epson_banner_070921.gif) and in Oslo next week (http://avforum.no/forum/generell-info/59766-demo-epson-tw-2000-26-september-2007-hos-hjemmekino.html). I can unfortunaltly not attend any of the events but maby other scandinavians that are so lucky to attend and visit AVS can post their impressions?

A short report from the Swedish showing of the TW2000 (I have not attended myself so this is just referring impressions from the person that calibrated the projector and people visiting the shop where it was shown from a Swedish forum.

The projector shown was a not finished PRE production model, the iris was working, it was calibrated in Natural mode on a 2 meter wide (83 inch Euro screen) source was Pioneer LX70 Bluray (playing pirates). There was unfortunately no total light control in the room so the absolute black level was not possible comment on.

Quite correct gray scale out of the box
Measured light output on screen 12.5 FL (a just the same as the TW1000 displayed in the same room (Said to be definitely higher light output on the production model).
Possible to tweak to quite correct colors (more correct than the HD1 the calibrator owns).
The iris was working but very slow
The measured gamma curve was excellent and better than any IRIS projector the calibrator had seen.
Wery sharp on HD material (sharper than HC5000 and TW1000) and good dept of field.
Wery smooth pans with the 2:2 pull down on 24FPS material.

Later in the open demonstration the picture was reported as washed out (due to spotlights on in the demo room) and also a bit “unstable”.

Next week the same projector will be demonstrated in Oslo in a room with total light control and black walls and roof then we hopefully will know more of the capability of this preproduction model.

A short report from the Swedish showing of the TW2000 (I have not attended myself so this is just referring impressions from the person that calibrated the projector and people visiting the shop where it was shown from a Swedish forum.

The projector shown was a not finished PRE production model, the iris was working, it was calibrated in Natural mode on a 2 meter wide (83 inch Euro screen) source was Pioneer LX70 Bluray (playing pirates). There was unfortunately no total light control in the room so the absolute black level was not possible comment on.

Quite correct gray scale out of the box
Measured light output on screen 12.5 FL (a just the same as the TW1000 displayed in the same room (Said to be definitely higher light output on the production model).
Possible to tweak to quite correct colors (more correct than the HD1 the calibrator owns).
The iris was working but very slow
The measured gamma curve was excellent and better than any IRIS projector the calibrator had seen.
Wery sharp on HD material (sharper than HC5000 and TW1000) and good dept of field.
Wery smooth pans with the 2:2 pull down on 24FPS material.

Later in the open demonstration the picture was reported as washed out (due to spotlights on in the demo room) and also a bit “unstable”.

Next week the same projector will be demonstrated in Oslo in a room with total light control and black walls and roof then we hopefully will know more of the capability of this preproduction model.

Sharper would be nice. The TW1000 isn't soft, but it could be sharper looking in my opinion when I compare with my previous TX200 (by memory, but still...). Again, whether it is the glass or the electronics, I've no idea. I just hope the TW2000 is really sharp.

So nobody has a clue whether the optics, glass lens etc are the same or different from the TW1000?

That does seem difficult to overcome from pre-production to production versions. But you never know. So if they solve that you may still be in then FiveMillionWays?


No I am going to stay put for now until dark chip 4 comes out. My current projector setup will keep me company until then.

Whats a "dark chip 4" ? I couldn't find much of clear info on that.

Whats a "dark chip 4" ? I couldn't find much of clear info on that.

That's DLP technology.

is it supposed to be somethign revolutionary? better than tw2000?

is it supposed to be somethign revolutionary? better than tw2000? No, just an evolution of Texas Instruments long-established DLP technology.
http://www.dlp.com/

Nick

is it supposed to be somethign revolutionary? better than tw2000?

Far more to discuss than meets the eye. DLP has it's own "peculiarities"...so you have to decide for yourself whether you want a DLP or whether you'd like to try an LCD or LCOS. Myself, I prefer LCD or LCOS.

HI Guys

I will check into the street pricing and availability for you and post back soon. I can usually get new projectors a month or so before they hit the shelves in the USA.
Cheers
S

HI Guys

I will check into the street pricing and availability for you and post back soon. I can usually get new projectors a month or so before they hit the shelves in the USA.
Cheers
S

That would be much appreciated. This is the one PJ that I keep watching as it looks to offer a lot of bang for the $.

Although, I'm still concern about dust...

HI Guys

I will check into the street pricing and availability for you and post back soon. I can usually get new projectors a month or so before they hit the shelves in the USA.
Cheers
S

Same here. Let us know what you find out!

bradesp

Did we ever hear if this PJ would handle CIH internally?

I have had to put my basement HT on hold several times and am in the slow process of construction. If this projector lives up to what I have read here this may finally be the projector that sees my HT.

When I first started talking about a dedicated HT I was looking at the Epson 550. Good thing I have been slow to plan and build. One time where my procrastination has paid off.

I am anxious to see "real world" experience on this pj.

Regards,

RTROSE

Any updates on this PJ? I believe it's scheduled to hit the streets in late Nov. early Dec.

Between the specs, projected price, and all the rave reviews from those who saw it at CEMIA... I can't wait to hear more about this PJ!

Short but promising:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/epson-pro-cinema-1080-ub-first-look

I think this evolution might be enough for me to give LCD a second chance. :)

Thanks for posting the preview.

Short but promising: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/epson-pro-cinema-1080-ub-first-look
I'm confused about something said there:

Epson paired the projector with its optional motorized anamorphic lens system and outboard Silicon Optix HQV video processor...

...The scaler allows the D7 chip to "fill" completely up with an anamorphic image from a 2.35:1 source found on a DVD or HD-DVD. This means that there are no pixels taken up by black bars and "wasted" on the LCD panels. The picture, as a result, is about 30% brighter and the anamorphic lens then expands the output of the lens to the proper 2.35:1 aspect ratio.
Presumably the "scaler" is the SO processor--I thought these projectors had the vertical squeeze already built-in? No?

Maybe I'm thinking of the Panasonic instead?

Panasonic doesn't need a scaler the Epson does.

My tv is shot, the red is going out on it 7 yrs old mitsu 65907, so i can't complain, time for something that isnt 400lbs, like the idea of a projector, saw a Epson PowerLite 1080 at a local store and liked it a lot, but it was the only projector i have seen.

Then I came home started reading reviews and such and saw this new model coming out soon (december i think I read). So I am very close to pulling the trigger but will now be waiting just a bit more to see what this comes in at price wise and to read a few usa reviews.

I wondered since I am new to projectors (reading alot tonight) my room is 14 feet from wall to wall where I would put this, I downloaded epsons projector distance program and just used the 1080 model, choosing a 100 diagonal measurement, it says projection distance 117 inches (in wide mode) so that would be just shy of 10 feet, (viewing distance is 12-13 feet). So that would work fine it sounds like (at least with the current 1080 unit in 100 inch diagonal 16x9 mode).

I saw the TELE vs WIDE mode and it says 250 inches (what is TELE vs WIDE mode mean?).

I do have windows in my room, i have blinds on them and will add darkening shades too, maybe curtains ontop of that as well, trying to just make/keep it dark, but the lum rating of the UB model is higher 1600 vs 1000 of the current model, that would be a big plus for me and my concern of room light (during daytime viewing) so it wouldn't be "as" washed out right?

I have a friend who has had a projector for a few years, i love visiting and watching movies at night or playing video games on it, BUT one day I was there in daytime and it was horrible, i mean almost not watchable, and I guess I am just scared of that happening to me here...

Will most likely wait a tad bit to see the pricepoint on the UB model, and to see if the standard one drops more, cuz im right on that fence inbetween at the moment.

Lastly screen wise, i saw this UP model says it goes upto 150 inches ! I also read in a 1080 review (the current model) unless it was a typo that it could go upto 140 inches? But on the official spec form it says 100 inches.

What would the best screen material or type be to get for either this 1080 or 1080UB model? Guessing to get at least something that is 100 inches if not more, unless my 14 feet distance would be too close for 100+ inches...

Thanks for any help and input here, still reading still learning, not exactly sure if i am ready to go projector or not but darn close after i saw the 1080 demo real quick, and if the 1080UB will trump that one it just might be time for me to step into the projection arena...

Bill :)

Panasonic doesn't need a scaler the Epson does.

Ouch. :(

I saw the TELE vs WIDE mode and it says 250 inches (what is TELE vs WIDE mode mean?).

Bill :)

Welcome aboard Bill.

Most modern digital pjs are outfitted with a zoom lens so the information Epson is providing refkects the range of image size available when the lens is at its range extremes.

Here is the calculator link from PJ Central for the crrent gen EPSON. Play with this for a while as it should provide an understanding of how this works. I suggest you operate the calculator in both "THROW" mode as well as "DIAGONAL" mode - (radio select buttons on the left side).
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_1080-projection-calculator-pro.htm

Since you are new to the game and if it has hobby aspects for you, I (and I'm sure others) will recommend that you get the pj first and project on a blank wall and play with the zoom as that will give you an indication of screen size and pj brightness in your given room - a white sheet works temporarily.

ted

Ted, I was looking at that and kinda got more confused than anything as to what it all meant now after a bit of sleep i think i might be understanding it a bit better.

Let me know I am on track on this, If I set the image diagonal at 100 (thats the max i can do with the 1080 model at least right?) the zoom at 1 would need 22.3 feet it says, but on the projector, i could use the zoom feature (still keeping a 100 inch diagnonal image) and zoom the unit to a throw distance of 13.1 about what id need give or take a few inches, and I would be at 1.68 on the zoom but would still have my full 100 inch screen at 1080p resolution right?

Now the limited understanding i have would be the closer to 1 zoom the crisper or better image? In other words if i do use that zoom at 1.68 would I loose a bit of image quality that i would actually see the difference of it vs 1 zoom? If I setup the parameters and pull the zoom to 1, at 13.1 feet then my image would reduce to aprox 61 inches from what I see. If I am understanding how all this stuff works.

But mainly if I did use zoom feature for larger image in shorter distance like in my application/use, at 1.68 zoom for 13.1 feet on a 100 inch diagonal, would the overall results of the image quality suffer due to using the zoom feature? Our seating distance from screen aproximately 13 feet, so projector would be darn near over my head directly.

One cool thing is the way my room is setup the projector/couch side is the low side of the room, the opposite wall where the screen would go is a slanted upward wall, so i think i could get that projector dead center aimed at the screen yet still be up out of my way in the seating area. (I was reading how it's optimal to try and aim it directly vs upward or downword towards the screen).

Behind the couch sadly is a set of 5 windows, all have south exposure with sunlight, do have blinds on them, will buy the darkening shades for each to help control light, (works great in daughters room where she used to get up with the sun), best $8 I ever spent hehe

I guess my worst fear is if I do all this and even go the step further of using darkening shades, that during the day with lights off the image may still be really washed out like my friends projector was.

Now to be fair his is a base cheap model im sure, at least 2-3 yrs old, and probably the cheapest screen he could get too, so things have probably changed in technology of projectors and screens since then.

I just would hate to sit down on a saturday afternoon to watch something and find out im seeng 1/3rd of the image doe to a wash out. I do not expect it to be as bright and vibrant as my 65 inch projection, but at night during movies (main viewing times are from 8pm to midnight) sure am hoping this would knock our socks off at 100 inches :)

Once you have a 65 inch for 7 yrs, and it comes time to replace it, the options of another big box arent so fun (moving, or it arranging room around it etc) but the lcd or plasma options in the near size range are pretty expensive and I am a bit afraid of hanging that much weight too on the wall, the pull down screen idea and projector seems like an awesome prospect, also if we move or i do make a room our "dedicated movie room" like I hope to someday, then a projector would be even more useful.

I will wait a bit read and learn more, and see what happens to price of the 1080 model vs what they price the 1080 UB model at, but the lumens rating of the 1080 UB being higher at 1600 vs 1000 on the 1080 model, would that spec alone give me the overall brighter image?

The brightest possible for daytime viewing is what I am after for sure in that respect, even tho 75% of our viewing is at night sure dont want to eliminate the joy of tv during the day either. I like the idea of 2 hdmi inputs too altho its a waiting game on price i guess and release date like everyone else i wanna see the real numbers.

Thanks for answering some of my projector newbie questions, spent easily 3-4 hrs reading last night into the early morning actually, paying for it now with little sleep, coffee helps..

As for screens, if I did get a 1080 or 1080 UB soon, what should I be looking at for those, is it even realistic if was to get a 1080 UB to even attempt to think of a 150 inch diagonal screen? I read it would do 150 inches wow!

Wonder if given my distance if i could even get it to zoom to 150 feet (13ish feet at 150 diagonal?) Or if at a seating distance of 13-14 feet if it would just look horrible. (altho id watch it often i bet) hehe

I would still probably invest in that larger screen (upto 150 diagonal) for the future cuz i have plans for converting a longer room into a media room someday down the line, but don't exactly know what route to go screen wise (what materials or brands would work best, i think epson sells screens too, would that be the best option etc) I wouldn't do motorized, but beyond that id just want a good quality screen i could retract when i wanted to move it or something. Probably limiting myself due to the size id want but heck if i get a projector that does 150 i want a 150 screen for the day I can do it even if i cant today I will be motivated to do it in another longer room sooner!


Bill :)

Let me know I am on track on this, If I set the image diagonal at 100 (thats the max i can do with the 1080 model at least right?) the zoom at 1 would need 22.3 feet it says, but on the projector, i could use the zoom feature (still keeping a 100 inch diagnonal image) and zoom the unit to a throw distance of 13.1 about what id need give or take a few inches, and I would be at 1.68 on the zoom but would still have my full 100 inch screen at 1080p resolution right?

Bill,

You are looking at it backwards I think. Or I should say backwards from the way I look at it but I think you have the basic idea. I don't know what projection calculator you are using but from what I see using Projector Central's calculator
you should be able to achieve a 100" image from 9' 9" to 20' 11". You should be able to attain a 100" image anywhere in those two distances by using the zoom feature of the projector.

IMO you do see some difference in picture quality when the image gets too large. However going from a 60 some odd inch image to a 100" image there really should not be any perceived reduction in picture quality. I don't have this pj but I would guess that you could go much larger and still retain good image quality under proper viewing conditions.

Regards,

RTROSE

Let me know I am on track on this, If I set the image diagonal at 100 (thats the max i can do with the 1080 model at least right?) the zoom at 1 would need 22.3 feet it says, but on the projector, i could use the zoom feature (still keeping a 100 inch diagnonal image) and zoom the unit to a throw distance of 13.1 about what id need give or take a few inches, and I would be at 1.68 on the zoom but would still have my full 100 inch screen at 1080p resolution right?

Firstly, Throw is defined as the measured distance between the lens and the screen surface and is independent of the zoom setting. The zoom would allow you to vary the image size within the range of the zoom. For example if it were a 2:1 lens, the image size would double (or halve) for that given throw distance and that would be the range of image size achievable ot that given throw. So in your case you've a fourteen foot room, let's assume the pj is one foot in depth so your throw distance lens elemento screen would be ~13 ft. The image size would then have a variable range dependent on your zoom setting wich is accomplished by rotatating a ring on the lens. To simplify the calculator example, select Diagonal Range (the vertical slider) as your choice in the Zoom slider setting radio button. Set your Throw Distance slider at what you estimate your pj lens to screen distance will be once the pj and lens are placed where you want them. I think if you can place your pj behind your seating area then you will be happier. Now once you have set those two parameters in the calculator, vary the Diagonal Range (vertical) slider and watch what happens with the horizontal slider labelled Image Diagonal. If you have done as I suggested (and I hope I was clear enough) then you should see the Image Diagonal horizontal slider vary and the screen graphic with "Projector Central" on it vary directly with the vertical slider movement. The Throw Distance horizontal slider should remain where you set it. This should give you an idea of how the image size varies per the lens zoom range once the pj has be set at a fixed throw distance.

Now the limited understanding i have would be the closer to 1 zoom the crisper or better image? In other words if i do use that zoom at 1.68 would I loose a bit of image quality that i would actually see the difference of it vs 1 zoom?


But mainly if I did use zoom feature for larger image in shorter distance like in my application/use, at 1.68 zoom for 13.1 feet on a 100 inch diagonal, would the overall results of the image quality suffer due to using the zoom feature? Our seating distance from screen aproximately 13 feet, so projector would be darn near over my head directly.
Most lenses tend to perform best at the midpoint of their zoom range but I will guarantee that with modern lenses on a pj of this type will perform such that you will notice no difference in image sharpness and detail regardless of where it is set in the range on anything but perhaps the most demanding of test signals.

One cool thing is the way my room is setup the projector/couch side is the low side of the room, the opposite wall where the screen would go is a slanted upward wall, so i think i could get that projector dead center aimed at the screen yet still be up out of my way in the seating area. (I was reading how it's optimal to try and aim it directly vs upward or downword towards the screen).
Image geometry will be best if the pj and screen are aligned such that they are level and plumb. There is a feature with modern lenses that is called "lens shift" that allows you to vary the image position relative to the pj such that the pj can actually be placed outside of the image plane, so it doesn't need to be dead centre.

Behind the couch sadly is a set of 5 windows, all have south exposure with sunlight, do have blinds on them, will buy the darkening shades for each to help control light, (works great in daughters room where she used to get up with the sun), best $8 I ever spent hehe

I guess my worst fear is if I do all this and even go the step further of using darkening shades, that during the day with lights off the image may still be really washed out like my friends projector was.

There is a white vinyl-backed material that is called Black-Out Cloth, available at your local fabric shop that is remarkably inexpensive per yard. It comes in 54 in widths cut to length. Its purpose is to act as a drapery liner and it will not allow light to pass through. You might consider it. Many first timers use the vinyl side as a temporary, inexpensive solution for a screen (see the screen forum) and it will avail you of many hours watching time as you learn more about screens to make your final choice. Though I don't recommend it as a final solution, it can be lived with for several months or longer if you are happy with it. You could buy it as a temp screen material and then incorporate it into drapes as a window solution when ready.


As for screens, if I did get a 1080 or 1080 UB soon, what should I be looking at for those, is it even realistic if was to get a 1080 UB to even attempt to think of a 150 inch diagonal screen? I read it would do 150 inches wow!

Bill :)
There is no reason to think in terms of 100 inches as the optimum but once you go to large sizes, pj lumens becomes an issue, as reflected brightness from the screen is referenced to screen area (foot lamberts), and it would be better if you had a room with total light control and a darkened decor (look at members' galleries and reflect on the colour choices made).

It would seem that you've been bitten and absorbing much of the knowledge on this site can be rewarding. There are many members hereabouts who know considerably more than I, and I believe you will come to recognize the names as you read more. Happy to be of some small assistance where I can, good luck with your project.

ted

Epson paired the projector with its optional motorized anamorphic lens system and outboard Silicon Optix HQV video processor...

...The scaler allows the D7 chip to "fill" completely up with an anamorphic image from a 2.35:1 source found on a DVD or HD-DVD. This means that there are no pixels taken up by black bars and "wasted" on the LCD panels. The picture, as a result, is about 30% brighter and the anamorphic lens then expands the output of the lens to the proper 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

So they lose horizontal resolution then?

So they lose horizontal resolution then?

Technically, you are not losing resolution, as the whole panel is being used, but the pixels are being stretched horizontally. If you are talking about pixels per inch, then yes, there are fewer pixels per inch. This detail has little or no negative affect on the image quality. I have used this type of setup for a year or longer now and I can say it works very well. You just need to tweak your throw range and zoom for the best image geometry etc. When you see the projected image with the black bars, although the 2.35:1 dvd looks the correct aspect ratio, it's quite small compared to when you stretch it vertically and then horizontally. It looks huge. It looks awesome. It's amazing and I'll never go back to black bars. As a matter of fact, I actually bought the Prismasonic lens I use right now with my Epson TW1000 from tvted. Great guy. Knows what he's talking about, and a great lens I love very much :)

Audioholics had it at their show:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/epson-pro-cinema-1080-ub-first-look
50,000:1 CR, 1,600 lumens and >$5k.
I saw the demo of King Kong and Seabiscuit. It was "totally awesome".

They also have an article about the new panels:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/epsons-d7-panel-c2-fine

Don't count LCD as dead just yet.

Craig

Audioholics had it at their show:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/epson-pro-cinema-1080-ub-first-look
50,000:1 CR, 1,600 lumens and >$5k.
I saw the demo of King Kong and Seabiscuit. It was "totally awesome".

They also have an article about the new panels:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/epsons-d7-panel-c2-fine

Don't count LCD as dead just yet.

Craig

Can you elaborate "Totaly awesome" a bit? :)

It's like, you know, bitchin!

It's like, you know, bitchin!


O well, I have one of them already....

I saw it at Audioholics as well. It was not merely totally awesome, but really most sincerely totally awesome.

I saw it at Audioholics as well. It was not merely totally awesome, but really most sincerely totally awesome.


Then this is the projector to look ot for this winter... :)

A interview, almost as informative as the other info from the Audiohiolics show:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/videos/2007-ce-union-epson-interview

A interview, almost as informative as the other info from the Audiohiolics show:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/videos/2007-ce-union-epson-interview
I'm planning a projector upgrade in the next four months and had it in my mind that I would no longer consider DI solutions, but the more I read about this piece, the more I think I should remain open-minded. Looking forward to some reviews w/measurements.

I saw it at Audioholics as well. It was not merely totally awesome, but really most sincerely totally awesome.
Yeah, what he said! :D

Craig

I saw it at Audioholics as well. It was not merely totally awesome, but really most sincerely totally awesome.

We thank you very sweetly for reporting that so neatly

<ding> <dong>

The witch is dead?

That was great---apparently Munchkins have small projectors---lol

This was very funny too


Originally Posted by BizarroTerl
It's like, you know, bitchin!


O well, I have one of them already....
__________________

It looks like youve read carefully and its important to be perceptive when you have only online reviews to go by. After all, once youve spent the money, you have to sit in the dark and face your decision, for hours, months and maybe years!

However.. in this case the top Epson LCD's have consistently been brighter with generally better colors OOTB than the common LCD competition when viewed side by side on the same screen in the same room. And only slightly bested in the area of percieved sharpness by one or two, imo.



I think the Epsons have more brightness and contrast exageration than the others. The calibrated brightness always seems to be a smaller fraction of the brightest. Going by what cine4home said about the tw1000 (and my own suppositions) I guess the E-ToRL bulb is further from white than other bulbs. It's bright for 170W, but only because it kicks out so much green. Once you turn that down the advantage disappears.

If I understand cine4home correctly though, and you are prepared to accept a lower "brightest" level, then you can get much of the contrast back with a suitable filter. This relieves the LCD of the job of reigning in the green, and liberates the full dynamic range. I've only just realised what those crafty Germasn have been doing all along, so sorry for being so slow. But if they are right, then maybe the tw2000 would indeed be capable of around 50k:1 with the right filter.

Any views?

nick

Audioholics had it at their show:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/epson-pro-cinema-1080-ub-first-look
50,000:1 CR, 1,600 lumens and >$5k.
I saw the demo of King Kong and Seabiscuit. It was "totally awesome".

They also have an article about the new panels:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/epsons-d7-panel-c2-fine

Don't count LCD as dead just yet.

Craig

Since I am looking for my first FP for a dedicated HT room, this FP is of interest BUT -- in a previous post was the mention of a scaler being used -- IS THIS technology as described about the D7 panel good enough to be used without a scaler and still compete with the other players in the ~$5K field such as the Black Pearl and the JVC HD-1/RS-1???

Thoughts/opinions:confused:??

Mike

IS THIS technology as described about the D7 panel good enough to be used without a scaler and still compete with the other players in the ~$5K field such as the Black Pearl and the JVC HD-1/RS-1???

Thoughts/opinions:confused:??

Mike

I have the same question. I have this Epson, the Pansonic, RS1 and Black Pearl all on my list. I think it'll be a good month or two before there's enough information to do a thorough comparison, so I guess I'll be patient. I wanted to get the new projector this month, but I think now it'll be December or January.

Since I am looking for my first FP for a dedicated HT room, this FP is of interest BUT -- in a previous post was the mention of a scaler being used -- IS THIS technology as described about the D7 panel good enough to be used without a scaler and still compete with the other players in the ~$5K field such as the Black Pearl and the JVC HD-1/RS-1???

Thoughts/opinions:confused:??
The setup was CIH. I know the video processor was performing vertical stretch, and I imagine it was tweaking the image as well. But I'm pretty sure that a VP can't improve contrast. And while I also know the system was ISF calibrated - they sent their independent ISF consultant to calibrate all of their projectors - the projector only outputted what it was capable of in the first place. If you're not running CIH and don't care to spring for a VP for the other things it can do, this projector will not disappoint you. Read the reviews when they appear for the pros' take on it, but what I saw blew me away.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the setup, source, material, roomconditions? Inpressions from the screen, absolute black level, detail in dark seenes, colour etc? Did you have any possibilyty to look at the CMS function of the prepro sample?

Can you elaborate a bit more on the setup, source, material, roomconditions? Inpressions from the screen, absolute black level, detail in dark seenes, colour etc? Did you have any possibilyty to look at the CMS function of the prepro sample?
I can't get anywhere near as detailed as you're asking. We went from room to room listening and watching different projectors, screens and audio gear, and we did it fairly quickly as there were seminars we wanted to catch. The room with the subject projector was very small with light-colored wall. The sound was crap, but the image glorious. And then we were herded out for the next group. Sorry I can't be more help.

Well, I just sold my Epson TW1000 ...but I can't afford to upgrade just yet.. looks like I'll sit back and watch the battle between the 1080p lcd projectors :) ..My hope is that the TW2000 is indeed as good as it sounds like it should be, and I hope that it is very sharp. The Panasonic is likely still not a candidate for me, so it's between the Sanyo Z2000, Mitsubishi HC6000 and the sparkling Epson TW2000 ;)

I have a dv11 Optoma, got it at CC w/ free 92 inch free screen (just as a toy sorta to mess with), but the screen takes upto 10 weeks to get UGHHH so for now it is showing on my wall or a bedsheet most nights.

Once the 92 free screen comes will put it in the den for the kids to watch cartoons on :)

For now still just holding out for this 1080 UB model to launch in the states, and was thinking since I will want to get a larger screen for the Epson, why not get the screen NOW and use the dv11 on it until the Epson 1080 UB launches.

I want to match up the best screen choice for the 1080UB based on my situation which is the following:

15 feet from seating to screen 16 feet from projector to screen

All visuals are straight on no side viewing spots.

Some ambient light but will do my best to get darkening shades and control it, and most of our viewing is after 8-9pm anyways.

So, based on that info knowing I would want the 1080 UB model, what screen options and or materials would be the best cost effective bang for my buck so to speak in terms of a good match for this projector?

I spent some time around the net reading up on screen makers (reviews and such) but am not even sure what brand or what material to get, or even what size to get, have plenty of room could even drop a 150 diag 16x9 with no problem, i think the UB model would give me 150 at 15-16 feet, but would it be TOO big from seating position of 15 feet?

Currently have the DV11 in 480P dvd mode showing about a 140 image in 16x9 and altho quality is lower and no screen it isnt too bad sitting back.

So was thinking of going with a 120 to 150 sized screen in general for the Epson.

Just not sure what to look for material, color, maker wise.

My price range for the screen would ideally be under $650 if at all possible...and I don't need anything fancy looking or with a motor, a strong manual pull down that wont fall apart easily and will stay true is more important to me than looks or the wow factor of a screen coming down.

Thanks for any input or advice, almost bought a 1080 unit about a month ago, then read the info on the UB models, so decided to hold off just a bit longer, but want to get the screen now for use with the dv11.

Bill :)

It has been awfully quiet on this thread for a while. Anybody have any more news on this pj. I am waiting for some of you out there to be guinea pigs to report on how this model performs in the real word.

If it performs well I may have found my new pj.

Regards,

RTROSE

It has been awfully quiet on this thread for a while. Anybody have any more news on this pj. I am waiting for some of you out there to be guinea pigs to report on how this model performs in the real word.

If it performs well I may have found my new pj.

Regards,

RTROSE

I think this is going to be the best LCD of the year, but I'm very disappointed that it won't do CIH scaling. :(

I think this is going to be the best LCD of the year, but I'm very disappointed that it won't do CIH scaling.

With 3 times the native On/Off CR of the panny AE2000, it theoretically should be the best LCD projector by far.

My biggest concern regarding this projector is dust blobs. It was reported that the unit displayed in Cedia, developed bad dust blobs just after 2 days of usage...

My second concern is price, I really hope Epson is going to live up to its original promise of a $2699 price tag (In Japan, the current street price of both the AE2000 and TW2000 is the same, 320,00 Yens, so lets hope this similarity will hold in the US too).

With 3 times the native On/Off CR of the panny AE2000, it theoretically should be the best LCD projector by far.

My biggest concern regarding this projector is dust blobs. It was reported that the unit displayed in Cedia, developed bad dust blobs just after 2 days of usage...

My second concern is price, I really hope Epson is going to live up to its original promise of a $2699 price tag (In Japan, the current street price of both the AE2000 and TW2000 is the same, 320,00 Yens, so lets hope this similarity will hold in the US too).

I don't see how it could have 3x the native CR as the Panny since they are using the same D7 panels (from what I've read). I've also heard the 50,000:1 is a huge stretch. I expect the CR to be slightly better, but not in a different league. Unlike many others here, IMO CR is not the end all be all for performance. Important, but other things such as MC, color, noise, lens quality, brightness, and flexibility are all important to me. The RS1 has great CR, but I was happy the day it left my house!

I agree the Epson and the Panny should be similarly priced. I'd go for the Epson if it had CIH scaling, but since only the Panny does I think that makes my decision a little easier... that and it's only being used in our BR.

BTW, I agree, dust is a major concern on any PJ with an open light path. :(

I have $3000 sitting in my projector account ready to spend. The Epson is the only reason I haven't purchased the Panny. I am trying to hold out until the Epson is reviewed and discussed. I'm finding it hard to sit and wait, however.

I, too, am mainly concerned with dust blobs. I still have terrible nightmares about the dust blobs I had with my Sony 10HT. I have gone to several psychiatrists to help me work though those issues which cost me two marriages and three jobs. I have finally turned a corner and on the road to recovery and I would hate to go back to those horrific days. Please. . . no dust blobs.

I hope someone will get some Epsons early so we can get some reviews.

I don't see how it could have 3x the native CR as the Panny since they are using the same D7 panels (from what I've read)

They are both using the D7 panels, but according to Epson engineers, the native CR improvement of the Epson UB, is a feature exclusive only to the D7 panels of their projector. Epson engineers said they took the stock D7 panel which according to them has 1400:1 native on/off CR (btw, exactly the number that was measured on this forum for the AE2000, for color1 mode), and by polarizing it in some new way, turned it into 4500:1 native panel.

You should note that if the Epson is indeed 4500:1 it will be pretty amazing, since according to the CR measurement done in this forum, the AE2000 can't do more than 4000:1 with the iris active ! (in best color modes).

Something else, if indeed the Epson can pull 4500:1 native, it means that the Panny AE3000 will do at least 4500:1 native, which might make me wait with 1080p just another year (I prefer the 1080p line of Panasonic than Epson).

which might make me wait with 1080p just another year (I prefer the 1080p line of Panasonic than Epson).

That would seem to belie the Rush part of your name.:p
Why not the VW60?

ted

Something else, if indeed the Epson can pull 4500:1 native, it means that the Panny AE3000 will do at least 4500:1 native, which might make me wait with 1080p just another year (I prefer the 1080p line of Panasonic than Epson).
Using that logic, you'll always be waiting my friend. ;)

Using that logic, you'll always be waiting my friend. ;)

It is a bummer though with the lack of convergence of the best tech among manufacturers. We've got:

1) Mitsubishi using a "fancy" iris but not using the D7 panels and/or special polarizer
2) Epson using D7 panels and special polarizer tech, but no fancy iris, and probably still using inferior optical lens that may have caused lack of sharpness in TW1000
3) Panasonic using D7 panels but not using a fancy iris or special polarizer
4) Sanyo using D7 panels but no fancy iris or special polarizer

What we need is a projector that uses big sharp lens optics and best quality control for LCD panel convergence using D7 panels and the special polarizer tech and a "fancy" iris. (by special polarizer, I mean the unique polarizer tech Epson is using in the TW2000 and by "fancy" iris I mean the iris employed in the HC6000 which eliminates stray light).

Not likely to happen, I know, but in order to remain sharp and compete with LCOS, LCD needs to use all the tricks. I guess we'll wait and see how things look after we get some sort of shootout showdown....

AE2000 vs TW2000 vs Z2000 vs HC6000 vs RS1 vs RS2 vs Sony Black Pearl...

Which projector has the best sharpness, colour uniformity, contrast and black levels?

To tell the truth, if the Epson TW2000 is sharper than the TW1000, then it's going to be competing for the top spot among lcd's if it's polarizer really kicks arse in the contrast and black level department. Then it's a matter of colour uniformity. I keep making a pecking order as to what is my first choice of projector among the lcd's, but it keeps changing. I hope the Epson comes out and/or is reviewed soon we know where it stands.

Chris,

One small addenda - some of us here on this thread would prefer vertical stretch included in the pj to avoid external processing and its associated costs (though I personally am not averse). If I'm not mistaken that would preclude all but the Panasonic and the Sony.

ted

Chris,

One small addenda - some of us here on this thread would prefer vertical stretch included in the pj to avoid external processing and its associated costs (though I personally am not averse). If I'm not mistaken that would preclude all but the Panasonic and the Sony.

ted

Hey Ted,

Until I get a new projector, that fine Prismasonic lens you sold me is waiting patiently :)

Vertical Stretch feature. Of course, of course. So the Panasonic AE2000 does vertical stretch to both SD and HD sources over HDMI? Vertical stretch is an important function. I personally rely on a DVDO VP50 for my de-interlacing of SD dvd's etc so a vertical stretch in a projector is not a feature I need this time around as I have this in the VP50 and have in fact had this feature since my iScan Ultra. I went the SDI DVD player route and will stick with external processing for a while. I tried a Faroudja dvd player, and while it looked good, it wasn't as good as my previous iScan HD+. An HD+ is an inexpensive option for those in need. It does the vertical stretch for SD and HD-DVD sources over DVI. I love the de-interlacing of iScan/DVDO products.

You make an important point. If the projectors are compared and the Epson's special polarizer and Mitsubishi's fancy iris do bring them up to the top of the heap, and the Panasonic isn't far behind, it may be worth getting simply for the vertical stretch feature. I just wonder about the de-interlacing part of the equation.

Maybe Mitsubishi is the first external company to get the DeepBlack polarisation D7 panels in their chassis, thats why the HC6000 is getting only the D6 panels. The HC5000 was the first produkt on the market with the D6 panels so we know they have good contact with Epson... I know if my speculation comes true and the model includes a full CMS I know that I will be first in line....

A norwegian reviwer have mesured a prepo sample to native contrast of 2800:1 with the iris off and over 13000:1 with Iris on in low lamp mode. This uncalibrated but mesured to 6800 Kelvin.

A norwegian reviwer have mesured a prepo sample to native contrast of 2800:1 with the iris off and over 13000:1 with Iris on in low lamp mode. This uncalibrated but mesured to 6800 Kelvin.

It will be interesting to see how the production PJ compares to the Panny with equal calibrations (REC 709/D65). Thanks for the update.:)

A norwegian reviwer have mesured a prepo sample to native contrast of 2800:1 with the iris off and over 13000:1 with Iris on in low lamp mode. This uncalibrated but mesured to 6800 Kelvin.

So, that's about, what, twice the Panny?

So, that's about, what, twice the Panny?

At least, but the calibration going one way or the other will change these numbers drastically. It will be interesting to see if the advantage remains this sizeable once they are calibrated to equal levels, my guess is not... But I hope I'm wrong! :D

So, that's about, what, twice the Panny?

Yes :- )

At least, but the calibration going one way or the other will change these numbers drastically. It will be interesting to see if the advantage remains this sizeable once they are calibrated to equal levels, my guess is not... But I hope I'm wrong! :D

I hope too, given the claimed 3 times higher panel contrast than the pany there is still some hope...

At least, but the calibration going one way or the other will change these numbers drastically.

Maybe the Epson UB, in its best mode doesn't need further calibration, like color1 of the AE2000.

Maybe the Epson UB, in its best mode doesn't need further calibration, like color1 of the AE2000.

I dont know, form the TW1000 there were no perfect color mode, but the CMS made it possible to get perfect colous given the right calibrating equippment. The CMS on the TW2000 is claimed to be better.

Regarding contrast level calibrated I will postresults if the Norwegian reviwer reveals any info (he is reviewing for a magazine and probably don't want to disclose all before the magasine hits the streets...)

Maybe Mitsubishi is the first external company to get the DeepBlack polarisation D7 panels in their chassis, thats why the HC6000 is getting only the D6 panels. The HC5000 was the first produkt on the market with the D6 panels so we know they have good contact with Epson... I know if my speculation comes true and the model includes a full CMS I know that I will be first in line....

Not sure I follow. So Mitsubishi is the first external company to get the D7 panels and so they don't use them in the HC6000? What is the logic behind that? If you got that D7 panel first, unless you found it inferior to the D6, wouldn't you use the D7 in a projector like the HC6000?

Not sure I follow. So Mitsubishi is the first external company to get the D7 panels and so they don't use them in the HC6000? What is the logic behind that? If you got that D7 panel first, unless you found it inferior to the D6, wouldn't you use the D7 in a projector like the HC6000?

Mitsu is not yet using D7 panels, the HC6000 is D6. Here are two kind of D7 panels from epson one with 1400:1 panel contrast and a D7 (deepblack) with claimed 4500:1 panel contrast that now are reserved for Epsons own UB model.

My hope is that the HC9000(?) will be the first projector model not made by epson with the D7 deepblack panels (probably with anoter name)... As I said a hope I have unfortunaltly no inside information on the subject, just pure speculations :- (

What I find most amazing is that basically since D5 panels, native on/off CR wasn't improved !.

The Panasonic PT-AX100U (yes, the old 720p model) was measured as 1320:1 native on/off CR in Cinema1 mode, and ~300:1 ANSI contrast.

Fast forward two years and two panel models, and the AE2000 was measured by a member in this forum to give 1380:1 native on/off CR, and someone else measured ANSI CR to be ~400:1.

Basically the only thing that really improved from D5 => D6 => D7, is the dynamic iris...

Let's hope the Epson UB will change all this.

have they ever done anything about the polarizers in general? or will they all crap out still?

Here are two kind of D7 panels from epson one with 1400:1 panel contrast and a D7 (deepblack) with claimed 4500:1 panel contrast that now are reserved for Epsons own UB model.

My hope is that the HC9000(?) will be the first projector model not made by epson with the D7 deepblack panels (probably with anoter name)... As I said a hope I have unfortunaltly no inside information on the subject, just pure speculations :- (

I've seen you state this a couple of time now, but I've yet to see anything that says there are two different D7 panels. Could you please provide a link as to where you've seen this info? :confused:

is this able to accept and properly display 1080p/24 yet? that would be the dealbreaker for me

I've seen you state this a couple of time now, but I've yet to see anything that says there are two different D7 panels. Could you please provide a link as to where you've seen this info? :confused:

If you search throug this thread you will find plenty on the subject (Hint go to page 3...) : -)

is this able to accept and properly display 1080p/24 yet? that would be the dealbreaker for me


If you search throug this thread you will find plenty on the subject (There is a search function top right...) : -)

If you search throug this thread you will find plenty on the subject (Hint go to page 3...) : -)

I've scanned over page 3 and I noticed nothing that suggests there are two variations of the D7 panels. The only thing I see mentioned is the use of polarizers which seems to be the backbone for the Deep Black technology. :confused:

Again I ask, can you point me to anything that actually states there are two D7 panels (a higher contrast Epson version, and a lesser contrast version for the Panny and Sanyo)? :confused:

I've scanned over page 3 and I noticed nothing that suggests there are two variations of the D7 panels. The only thing I see mentioned is the use of polarizers which seems to be the backbone for the Deep Black technology. :confused:

Again I ask, can you point me to anything that actually states there are two D7 panels (a higher contrast Epson version, and a lesser contrast version for the Panny and Sanyo)? :confused:
What I've read here leads me to think that there are one (kind of) D7 panels, but different manufacturers employ different tweaks to distinguish their product(s). Polarizers, DI's, better DI's, etc.

What I've read here leads me to think that there are one (kind of) D7 panels, but different manufacturers employ different tweaks to distinguish their product(s). Polarizers, DI's, better DI's, etc.

That's been my understanding as well, but I've seen the OP state multiple times that Epson has produced two D7 panels, one with superior contrast which only they will be using (at least initially), while the other manufactures (Panasonic and Sanyo) are using the lesser contrast D7 panels. If he knows something we don't, I'd like to see the source of this information as this intrigues me... Otherwise, I'd hate to see him spreading FUD if this is not the case.