Blu-ray fans this thread is for you. I want to know if anyone can tell the difference between the two. The movies 300, Fifth Element(remastered), Ghost Rider, and Stomp the Yard all have both soundtracks. All excellent demo material. Let's talk about it...:) Does anyone own the movies I have listed here for A/B comparisons? Once again this thread is about what do you HEAR!

Well sony doesn't use Dialog Norm on TrueHD Track,but due to DD spec,the sound is a couple of DB lower then PCM, Once both normalized they should sound the same..

I think the PCM track on 300 is louder than the DTHD track.

I think the PCM track on 300 is louder than the DTHD track.
Thanks for your feedback

I have Monitor Audio GR60, Center, and GR10 as a rear with latest Pioneer VSX-92.

I played both 300 and various other TrueHD...

With absolutely no ambient noise whatsoever, I tested several times...

My conclusion is..


There is no difference in terms of sound that I could hear. If you say "louder' being the difference, just increase the volume slightly to match that. In all other aspects, there is no audible difference to me.

I think the PCM track on 300 is louder than the DTHD track.

answer

Well sony doesn't use Dialog Norm on TrueHD Track,but due to DD spec,the sound is a couple of DB lower then PCM, Once both normalized they should sound the same..

Obviously the pcm track is louder on 300 but taking that into account, I dont know why but for some reason the Dolby TrueHD track is less dynamic sounding than the PCM track. I don't know what Warner did to it but i feel deeper bass and better highs on the pcm track than the trueHD one. I guess applied that normalization processing to the TrueHD track. In this situation the PCM is clearly the superior choice.

Obviously the pcm track is louder but taking that into account, I dont know why but for some reason the Dolby TrueHD track is less dynamic sounding than the PCM track. I don't know what Warner did to it but i feel deeper bass and better highs on the pcm track than the trueHD one. I guess applied that normalization processing to the TrueHD track. In this situation the PCM is clearly the superior choice.
Thanks for your feedback

I have Monitor Audio GR60, Center, and GR10 as a rear with latest Pioneer VSX-92.

I played both 300 and various other TrueHD...

With absolutely no ambient noise whatsoever, I tested several times...

My conclusion is..


There is no difference in terms of sound that I could hear. If you say "louder' being the difference, just increase the volume slightly to match that. In all other aspects, there is no audible difference to me.
Thanks for your feedback

Obviously the pcm track is louder but taking that into account, I dont know why but for some reason the Dolby TrueHD track is less dynamic sounding than the PCM track. I don't know what Warner did to it but i feel deeper bass and better highs on the pcm track than the trueHD one. I guess applied that normalization processing to the TrueHD track. In this situation the PCM is clearly the superior choice.

This is the same conclusion I came to. I haven't tested Ghost rider yet.

normalization is all or nothing not selective freq. al la EQ.

If there is any kind of real difference, I'd have to blame the hardware decoding.

There really shouldn't be any difference between PCM and TrueHD.

Obviously the pcm track is louder but taking that into account, I dont know why but for some reason the Dolby TrueHD track is less dynamic sounding than the PCM track. I don't know what Warner did to it but i feel deeper bass and better highs on the pcm track than the trueHD one. I guess applied that normalization processing to the TrueHD track. In this situation the PCM is clearly the superior choice.

That's interesting. I found the opposite to be true.

I also find the dialog is a bit easier to make out at times.

I think we can all agree both sound pretty awesome and lossless of any flavor (that we can hear, f you Fox/dts) is fantastic.

I cant from the titles I heard.

the only time there should be a difference is if the bit depth of the two tracks are different. occasionally you'll see a 16bit PCM track on a disc with a 20 or 24 bit truehd track-- since the TrueHD track takes less disc space they can afford to keep the bitdepth the same as the source. PCM, being totally uncompressed, takes more disc space, so sometimes PCM is dithered down to 16 bit to save space. In that case, the track with more bits should in theory sound better.
Other than that, there should be no difference, since True HD is a lossless codec. if you're not getting the exact same bits out of it that you're putting into it, it's effectively broken!

I seem to favor the PCM track ever so slightly. Seems a little more dynamic. However its so slight that I don't favor one or the other. If PCM is a 10, TrueHD is a 9.9. When its that close, I move on to worry about other aspects of the disc.

There is a very big difference on 300 between PCM and True on my system. True is lacking considerably using the PS3 and the 805. I switched back and forth when he yells SPARTA many times - My wife even saw PCM as better.

There is a very big difference on 300 between PCM and True on my system. True is lacking considerably using the PS3 and the 805. I switched back and forth when he yells SPARTA many times - My wife even saw PCM as better.
Thanks for your feedback

I cant from the titles I heard.
Thanks for your feedback

There is a very big difference on 300 between PCM and True on my system. True is lacking considerably using the PS3 and the 805. I switched back and forth when he yells SPARTA many times - My wife even saw PCM as better.

the PCM track on 300 is mastered a bit louder than the TrueHD was, so make sure to bump the volume when you switch to TrueHD. On that particular disc, both the PCM and TrueHD are 16 bit/48khz, so differences should be minimal.
Also, make sure the PS3 is set to LPCM for the audio output. If you set the PS3 to bitstream, you'll only be hearing the lossy Dolby Digital core track, not TrueHD. That might account for PCM sounding so much better . . . .

I seem to favor the PCM track ever so slightly. Seems a little more dynamic. However its so slight that I don't favor one or the other. If PCM is a 10, TrueHD is a 9.9. When its that close, I move on to worry about other aspects of the disc.
Thanks for your feedback

That's interesting. I found the opposite to be true.

I also find the dialog is a bit easier to make out at times.

I think we can all agree both sound pretty awesome and lossless of any flavor (that we can hear, f you Fox/dts) is fantastic.
Thanks for your feedback

Are you on a mad mission to up your post count or something? LOL.....sorry just not used to someone "Thanks for the feedback"ing each post.

Anyways, I too am finding the PCM tracks to be slightly louder than TrueHD.

Are you on a mad mission to up your post count or something? LOL.....sorry just not used to someone "Thanks for the feedback"ing each post.

Anyways, I too am finding the PCM tracks to be slightly louder than TrueHD.



Thanks for your feedback...

I have the Fifth Element in right now and I just tried switching back and forth and I didn't hear much difference in volume or sound...

If anything for the Fifth Element True HD sounds a bit richer...

As for 300 I saw the same as everyone else... PCM is louder than the TrueHD

There is a very big difference on 300 between PCM and True on my system. True is lacking considerably using the PS3 and the 805. I switched back and forth when he yells SPARTA many times - My wife even saw PCM as better.



How do you "see" PCM? ;)

Are you on a mad mission to up your post count or something? LOL.....sorry just not used to someone "Thanks for the feedback"ing each post.

Anyways, I too am finding the PCM tracks to be slightly louder than TrueHD.
yeah, except for mine! i get no love at all . . . .
:p

These "polls" crack me up! THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!! PERIOD! The difference, if any, that you "may" hear is related to how the disc was authored. The two formats, which really isn't two, are essentially identical.

PCM in both GHost Riders and 300 sound much more dynamic and more pleasant to the ears than True-HD. I sstill gon't get why studios want to pay a license fee to Dolby Labs while PCM is free :confused:

Went back and forth with Fifth Element and did not notice any difference. They are even the same volume.

I find Pcm louder.when i watched ghost rider I found it was louder but 5th element the same in volume.i also found using the ps3 it shows the mbps that dolby true hd was 3.3mbps and pcm was 4.6mbps.I find that pcm has always a higher mpbs than dolby true hd.The ps3 is the only one that shows it, unfortunaltey my pioneer blu-ray doesn't not show it

Like above
- due to dialog norm. True HD tracks are slightly softer than PCM
- simply turn the volume up slightly and they are EQUAL

Anyone who thinks they aren't exactly the same is deluding themselves. There is no reason for the inefficient PCM on the discs. That is simply throwing space away -- put in extras, up the bitrate, etc.

I agree up the bitrate!

Thanks for your feedback

Are you on a mad mission to up your post count or something? LOL.....sorry just not used to someone "Thanks for the feedback"ing each post.

Anyways, I too am finding the PCM tracks to be slightly louder than TrueHD.

I once read a poster who told another poster something to this effect: "Look at the number of posts I've made, and show me some respect!" Many times I see ridiculous remarks from those with post count over 1,000 who think they know better than those with a measley 50 post count.

On topic, if a movie has both audio format, I always select PCM. I dunno why. It "sounds" better to me.

I agree up the bitrate!

You can't up the bitrate... The way it works is the same as a ZIP or RAR.

For example a 16bit/48mbits track PCM is always 4.9mbits.. for example in a movie the action is calm, almost no Surround activity...

The TrueHD and DTS MA loselessly compress the 'Empty' of the PCM, making a mbits of 2.2, 1.8mbits since there's no more information than that in reality. Then the action kick it... , so there's less 'Empty' in the PCM, but bitrate goes up to 3.2, 3.8 mbits

You can't control the Bitrate, you just select the files and the encode compression scheme zip/rar it. For example, 2ch PCM for CD AUDIO is 1.5mbits, there format on PC called FLAC or APE that does the SAME exact thing as TrueHD and DTS MA but for Stereo Music, normally you get about 720kbps avg once compressed

With Video you can control the bitrate with values because it's not loselessly compressed, but with TrueHD you can't, normally it's about 45% off the original PCM track (The Size) but it's unpredictable..

PCM in both GHost Riders and 300 sound much more dynamic and more pleasant to the ears than True-HD. I sstill gon't get why studios want to pay a license fee to Dolby Labs while PCM is free :confused:

...because they use DD and it is the same license.

You can't up the bitrate... The way it works is the same as a ZIP or RAR.

For example a 16bit/48mbits track PCM is always 4.9mbits.. for example in a movie the action is calm, almost no Surround activity...

The TrueHD and DTS MA loselessly compress the 'Empty' of the PCM, making a mbits of 2.2, 1.8mbits since there's no more information than that in reality. Then the action kick it... , so there's less 'Empty' in the PCM, but bitrate goes up to 3.2, 3.8 mbits

You can't control the Bitrate, you just select the files and the encode compression scheme zip/rar it. For example, 2ch PCM for CD AUDIO is 1.5mbits, there format on PC called FLAC or APE that does the SAME exact thing as TrueHD and DTS MA but for Stereo Music, normally you get about 720kbps avg once compressed

With Video you can control the bitrate with values because it's not loselessly compressed, but with TrueHD you can't, normally it's about 45% off the original PCM track (The Size) but it's unpredictable..

Mate thankyou very much for that.Did not know that.

I find Pcm louder.when i watched ghost rider I found it was louder but 5th element the same in volume.i also found using the ps3 it shows the mbps that dolby true hd was 3.3mbps and pcm was 4.6mbps.I find that pcm has always a higher mpbs than dolby true hd.The ps3 is the only one that shows it, unfortunaltey my pioneer blu-ray doesn't not show it

PCM will always have a higher bitrate as it's uncompressed.

A 3.3 avg Mbps bitrate for TrueHD is probbably a 20-bit track which has 16x more resolution than the 16-bit PCM. 24bit has 256x more resolution.

Louder ain't better.

Like above
- due to dialog norm. True HD tracks are slightly softer than PCM
- simply turn the volume up slightly and they are EQUAL

Anyone who thinks they aren't exactly the same is deluding themselves. There is no reason for the inefficient PCM on the discs. That is simply throwing space away -- put in extras, up the bitrate, etc.

Agreed. Without the inefficient 16/48 PCM there's enough room on a BD 25 to put TrueHD at 24/48 and you can throw in some extras. I would much rather have a DD 5.1 or TrueHD sound track at 24/48 than PCM at 16/48.

BTW: I am not saying that all PCM is 16/48. Some discs have the full 24/48 PCM (POTC for example) but it does take up more space and MAY increase the size enough that BD50 must be used.

The PCM tracks almost always sound better to me. The most obvious is the volume difference, but even adjusting up to match, it is still different. Maybe Dialog Norm? Don't get me wrong, though, I am more than happy to "settle" for TrueHD. I just hope we start seeing more 6.1 and 7.1.

PCM will always have a higher bitrate as it's uncompressed.

A 3.3 avg Mbps bitrate for TrueHD is probbably a 20-bit track which has 16x more resolution than the 16-bit PCM. 24bit has 256x more resolution.

Louder ain't better.

I did not say Louder is better, I just answered the question of the thread and used ghost rider as an example.

PCM in both GHost Riders and 300 sound much more dynamic and more pleasant to the ears than True-HD. I sstill gon't get why studios want to pay a license fee to Dolby Labs while PCM is free :confused:
I compared the two in "300" and pcm had slightly cleaner and a tad louder bass.

I compared the two in "300" and pcm had slightly cleaner and a tad louder bass.

I have the hd-dvd version of 300.I have to admit the dolby true hd on that copy was amazing.I think that was an awesome example of dolby true hd at it's best.

I have the hd-dvd version of 300.I have to admit the dolby true hd on that copy was amazing.I think that was an awesome example of dolby true hd at it's best.
Sorry, it was the Blu-Ray version of "300".
So true how we all differ in not just opinions but as a human being's perception.

Sorry, it was the Blu-Ray version of "300".
So true how we all differ in not just opinions but as a human being's perception.

your right there!

This post is somewhat based on perception more so than scientific proof.

Just to clarify, I bought HD-DVD 300, and did a direct comparison of sound in regard to 300 in BD. (I have both PS3 and Toshiba A2).

After about 10 times of iterative test, there is NO sound difference to my ear. Again, your mileage may vary, and I believe my HT system is pretty decent (Monitor Audio Gold Reference Series), and with that said, NO audible difference at all to me.

This post is somewhat based on perception more so than scientific proof.

Just to clarify, I bought HD-DVD 300, and did a direct comparison of sound in regard to 300 in BD. (I have both PS3 and Toshiba A2).

After about 10 times of iterative test, there is NO sound difference to my ear. Again, your mileage may vary, and I believe my HT system is pretty decent (Monitor Audio Gold Reference Series), and with that said, NO audible difference at all to me.

I don't have 300 on bd, so really cannot comment.But between the two(Dolby true hd) they should sound the same.what was your thoughts on pcm version on bd? Subharmonic_20 said: pcm had slightly cleaner and a tad louder bass.

I guess it also depends on everyones individual setup at home.

I don't have 300 on bd, so really cannot comment.But between the two(Dolby true hd) they should sound the same.what was your thoughts on pcm version on bd? Subharmonic_20 said:

I guess it also depends on everyones individual setup at home.

PCM on BD is slighty louder than TrueHD. Just increase the volume little bit, and they sound the same to my ear.