I am not rich and, therefore, hate to think of sinking money into movies that will be on an obsolete system. I was thinking though, even if HD-DVD "wins", will Blu-ray really go away? This may have been suggested before. Sony has taken great pains to make sure that PS-One and Two games are, for the most, part playable on each subsequent generation of gaming machine. I would assume, if they follow past patterns, that any new playstation system in the future will have to support Blu-ray to make PS3 games playable. I take comfort in believing this anyway. Didn't know if anyone had thought about this or not.

L

Probably not, Sony has a history of releasing content on its formats for many years despite the failure. Sony didn't stop making Betamax players until 2002 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/28/tech/main520011.shtml). Sony still releases movies on the UMD thing (I don't know if other studios do). Sony can put a bunch of data on a BD50 for PS3 games. Some Sony DVD players have SACD support. So Blu-Ray won't disappear completely.

I agree that the PS3 ensures the Blu-ray format's survival. IMO both formats will indeed coexist and have mainstream success. I think there will be several more dual format players announced throughout 2008.

No it won't anytime soon.
Also, even if, say, two years from now HD DVD software would outsell BD 4 :1, a lot of neutral studios would probably still release BD movie discs, as long as there was some money to be made on 'em.

Both are here to stay for a long time, BD has a strong chance of survival as a niche if HD-DVD were to win due to the PS3.

In the end the outcome will be determined by dollars and cents, just like everything else. eg if all movie studios only produce content on HD-DVD do you think Sony will continue put its movies on BD if they lose money doing so?? Currently there is no hidef DVD market to speak of, so we probably have a while to wait.

larry

The way I see it, Blu-ray is the only safe bet at this time. there are simply too many great films available in the Sony/Columbia and Fox/MGM catalogs to dismiss. It would have to be a total wipe out for Blu-ray to ever see those titles on HD DVD. And even then it will be many years if that ever happens. The opposite isn't quite as true for Paramount and Universal. They could easily switch or go neutral since they have no vested interest in exclusively supporting HD DVD long-term.

In addition, even if HD DVD made huge strides in its installed base, it simply won't be able to compete with the combined sales of the PS3 and the increasing number of Blu-ray players making their way to retailers. When you see the PS3 prices begin to drop significantly, you will also see it's status change as a gaming machine rise as well. As entertaining as the Wii may be, its graphics and playability are limited compared to Sony's powerhouse. Don't forget that there are a huge number of PS2 owners with a library of PS2 games who would like to update that machine with a PS3 when prices are more attractive.

Cheapo Chinese players are not necessarily the answer to HD DVD's prayers either. Does anybody really believe that those people will run out and buy a cheap player and then turn around and pay $20 for a movie? What will the playability be? What kind of manufacturer support will be available? In all the years I have been buying movies, I have never purchased a bargain basement player from an unknown manufacturer. But renters and people digging in Walmart's discount bins probably will.

I do not subscribe to the notion that both formats will survive side-by-side. Some battles are won and some are lost but this war is far from its conclusion.

just wait until PS3 and blu-ray standalone players become at $150 or even $99. That will project to sell over 100,000,000 million units!!! We're still early in the games. It tooks XBOX over 1 year to come out a decent game.

As for the chinese players at $150, I don't think many Walmart shopper will dare touch a HD-DVd player at that price. Most of the shoppers probably don't have HD television.

DVD player will continue to be strong. Why? It's cheap and they can watch movies with their DVD+R copies from friends.

Blu-Ray will be around for a long time.

The way I see it, Blu-ray is the only safe bet at this time. there are simply too many great films available in the Sony/Columbia and Fox/MGM catalogs to dismiss.

Everybody keeps saying this and it simply not a great basket to put your eggs in. As EASILY seen with the Paramount decision, Studio support is an extremely LIQUID thing... here today and gone tomorrow.... for EITHER side.

THERE IS NO SAFE BET RIGHT NOW.

At the end of the day, these studios are nothing but businesses... they will go where the money takes them.... and so far NEITHER format has produced enough income to even really be worth TRULY picking a side.

The way I see it, Blu-ray is the only safe bet at this time. there are simply too many great films available in the Sony/Columbia and Fox/MGM catalogs to dismiss. It would have to be a total wipe out for Blu-ray to ever see those titles on HD DVD. And even then it will be many years if that ever happens. The opposite isn't quite as true for Paramount and Universal. They could easily switch or go neutral since they have no vested interest in exclusively supporting HD DVD long-term.

In addition, even if HD DVD made huge strides in its installed base, it simply won't be able to compete with the combined sales of the PS3 and the increasing number of Blu-ray players making their way to retailers. When you see the PS3 prices begin to drop significantly, you will also see it's status change as a gaming machine rise as well. As entertaining as the Wii may be, its graphics and playability are limited compared to Sony's powerhouse. Don't forget that there are a huge number of PS2 owners with a library of PS2 games who would like to update that machine with a PS3 when prices are more attractive.

Cheapo Chinese players are not necessarily the answer to HD DVD's prayers either. Does anybody really believe that those people will run out and buy a cheap player and then turn around and pay $20 for a movie? What will the playability be? What kind of manufacturer support will be available? In all the years I have been buying movies, I have never purchased a bargain basement player from an unknown manufacturer. But renters and people digging in Walmart's discount bins probably will.

I do not subscribe to the notion that both formats will survive side-by-side. Some battles are won and some are lost but this war is far from its conclusion.
This doesn't directly answer the scenario given, though. He asked, using the scenario that HD-DVD were to win, if blu-ray would remain. Your answer was "well blu-ray is doing better so...", but that doesn't answer his immediate question about the staying power of blu-ray if it lost.

Everybody keeps saying this and it simply not a great basket to put your eggs in. As EASILY seen with the Paramount decision, Studio support is an extremely LIQUID thing... here today and gone tomorrow.... for EITHER side.

THERE IS NO SAFE BET RIGHT NOW.

At the end of the day, these studios are nothing but businesses... they will go where the money takes them.... and so far NEITHER format has produced enough income to even really be worth TRULY picking a side.

this is pretty much my stance on the hidef format war after Paramount's announcement.

Sony's movies [both catalog and new releases] alone would keep Blu-ray desirable and therefore a necessity for most peeps home theaters.

I personally don't see how most home theater hobbyists can stand going without Sony movies, much less Disney, Fox, and MGM.

Good news is Blu-ray will be having a new friend soon, New Line. Their first release is going to be 'Hairspray.' Hopefully, LOTR won't be too far behind....

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=321

I'll echo the PS3-as-survival-insurance idea. The PS3 will be the Sony gaming standard for several years, so even if all other Blu-ray players went away, that would still be there. What happens when the PS4 comes out? Keep in mind that Sony strives to keep all PlayStation machines (excluding PSP) compatible with earlier-generation games, which means that future gaming consoles would have to be compatible with Blu-ray in order to play PS3 games, thus enabling it to play Blu-ray video as well. As far as media would go, I agree that Sony will keep churning out videos as long as they have a machine that will play it. The other studios- uncertain.

Having said all of this, I don't think Blu-ray is going anywhere. The Paramount bombshell was quite a surprise, but it would take far more than that to make BD go away. There is still a majority of movie content aligned with Blu-ray supporting studios, and PS3 + standalone players dominate the High-Def market.

Anyone reasonable person knows Blu-ray is a superior format in the long run with higher capacity and bandwidth. The advantages HD DVD(price and HDi) has now will be gone. A few years down the line when combo players take over, capacity and bandwidth will be that more important. Given the choice between authoring on HD DVD or Blu-ray, studios will chose Blu-ray. Please HD DVD supporters, don't even bring up TL-45 etc ...its not going to happen because it won't be compatible with current players.

This doesn't directly answer the scenario given, though. He asked, using the scenario that HD-DVD were to win, if blu-ray would remain. Your answer was "well blu-ray is doing better so...", but that doesn't answer his immediate question about the staying power of blu-ray if it lost.

Let me spell it out for you. Sony along with its interest in MGM would likely hold out till the bitter end and probably would never support HD DVD. So the safest bet is Blu-ray. The scenario is simply never going to materialize. Chances are much better that Universal and Paramount would go neutral before you would see Sony support HD DVD. Blu-ray isn't going anywhere. There are way too many companies that are already invested in the technology and with every day that passes HD DVD loses more of its relevance. If Toshiba and Microsoft hadn't been successful in luring Paramount over to their side this thing would have been over and done with by Christmas 2007.

it'd sure be a great Video game medium as it is now. Talk about lots of space for those cut-scenes.

Let me spell it out for you. Sony along with its interest in MGM would likely hold out till the bitter end and probably would never support HD DVD. So the safest bet is Blu-ray. The scenario is simply never going to materialize. Chances are much better that Universal and Paramount would go neutral before you would see Sony support HD DVD. Blu-ray isn't going anywhere. There are way too many companies that are already invested in the technology and with every day that passes HD DVD loses more of its relevance. If Toshiba and Microsoft hadn't been successful in luring Paramount over to their side this thing would have been over and done with by Christmas 2007.
Let me spell THIS out for you, since you missed my point entirely. His question was specifically pertaining to this scenario he gave. Your post did not answer that scenario. You gave a reason why that scenario may not exist, but does not answer his question. I understand your points, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that your explanation does not deal with his specific question using the scenario if HD-DVD wins. It's like if he asked "If the cold war never happened where would the world be politically", and you answered "well the cold war was inevitable". That doesn't answer his question, and at the same time does not make your answer wrong. See my point?

Let me spell THIS out for you, since you missed my point entirely. His question was specifically pertaining to this scenario he gave. Your post did not answer that scenario. You gave a reason why that scenario may not exist, but does not answer his question. I understand your points, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that your explanation does not deal with his specific question using the scenario if HD-DVD wins. It's like if he asked "If the cold war never happened where would the world be politically", and you answered "well the cold war was inevitable". That doesn't answer his question, and at the same time does not make your answer wrong. See my point?


The point of my post is that the scenario will never happen. HD DVD simply cannot win the whole kitandkaboodle simply because Sony now owns a studio and has a vested interest in another, namely, MGM. It would take hell freezing over before you saw them supporting HD DVD. It's not like the Beta days. You will probably see digital downloads as the dominant player before Sony would relent and release its catalog on HD DVD.

So once again, the premise of his question is nearly impossible in my view. The only format that has the future possibility of access to all content available in high defnition is Blu-ray. HD DVD can certainly be dominant in the game but can never win the whole thing and Sony knows this. If you want to own and view Sony/Columbia or MGM titles (except those controlled by Warner Bros.) in high definition, you will have to buy a Blu-ray player eventually.

Sony owns Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group (result of a merger between Columbia Pictures and TriStar Pictures in 1998). It posesses a library of more than 4,000 films (including 12 Academy Award for Best Picture winners), as of 2004 this unit of Sony distributes about 22 films a year under its various studio brands in 67 countries. In addition, Sony owns 20% of the total equity (which includes 45% of the total outstanding common stock) of MGM Holdings.

Another interesting factoid is that producer/actor Tom Cruise and his production partner, Paula Wagner recently signed an agreement with MGM to run United Artists. Wagner will serve as United Artists' chief executive. Cruise will produce and star in films for UA and MGM will distribute the movies. All of which will probably be Blu-ray exclusives.

I hand picked a small number of the catalog titles that you will probably have no hope of ever adding to your high definition collection withot a Blu-ray player.

Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Raging Bull
Dr. Strangelove
Mad Max
Lawrence of Arabia
Some Like It Hot
Annie Hall
Y Tu Mama Tambien
The Best Years of Our Lives
Dances With Wolves
It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Midnight Cowboy
Bull Durham
Inherit the Wind
Fiddler on the Roof
Hair
Platoon
The Great Escape
Rainman
The Black Stallion
Silence of the Lambs
Men In Black
Gattaca
West Side Story
Marty
Heavy Metal
Fly Away Home
Stuart Little
Stephen King's Christine
The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension
The Fifth Element
Spider-man
Starship Troopers
Silverado
Leon-The Professional
Panic Room
Bewitched
Legends of the Fall
12 Angry Men
John Carpenter's The Fog
Jon Carpenter's Escape From New York
Jeepers Creepers
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Cliffhanger
Mask of Zorro
Desperado
The Secret of N.I.M.H.
Guns of Navarone
Silence of the Lambs
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Das Boot
Bad Boys
The Patriot
On The Waterfront
From Here to Eternity
The Bridge on the River Kwai
Jason an the Argonauts (Ray Harryhausen)
In Cold Blood
Oliver!
Moby Dick
Straw Dogs
Robocop
Funny Girl
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
The Way We Were
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
The Deep
Midnight Express
Kramer vs. Kramer
Stir Crazy
The Graduate
Used Cars
Annie
Absence of Malice
Stripes
Tootsie
Ghandi
The Big Chill
Ghostbusters I & 2
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Hang 'Em High
The Exorcism of Emily Rose
A Fistful of Dollars
For a Few Dollars More
Get Shorty
Charlie's Angels
Capote
Groundhog Day
The Reurn of the Living Dead
Get Shorty
Air Force One
The Last Picture Show
Rent
Steel Magnolias
The Karate Kid
Stand By Me
The Last Emperor
Starman
Misery
City Slickers
A Few Good Men
Groundhog Day
The People vs. Larry Flynt
Air Force One
Somethings Gotta Give
Moonstruck
Thelma and Louise
Hannibal
Legally Blonde
The Amityville Horror
Koyaanisqatsi
Apt Pupil
Spaceballs
New York, New York
The Princess Bride
Taxi Driver
The Bounty
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
Breakfast on Pluto
Breathless
A Bridge Too Far
Charly
Fargo
Manhunter
To Live and Die in L.A.
In the Heat of the Night
The Cotton Club
Midnight Cowboy
Usual Suspects
Wargames
The Lion In Winter
When Harry Met Sally
The Birdcage
The Blue Lagoon
Spaceballs
Wizards
Fritz the Cat
The Great Escape
Millers Crossing
This is Spinal Tap
Mont Python and the Holy Grail
Life of Brian
No Way Out
Blue Velvet
Wild at Heart
Prizzi's Honor
The Age of Innocence
Bandits
They Shoot Horses Don't They?
Valley Girl
Mr. Mom
Barbershop
True Confessions
F/X
Mermaids
The Beatles' Yellow Submarine
The Trip to Bountiful
Broadway Danny Rose
Rob Roy
The Producers
Return of the Living Dead
The Man in the Iron Mask
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
In the Heat of the Night
They Call Me Mr. Tibbs
Red River
Stephen King's Carrie
A Fish Called Wanda
The Amityville Horror
the Dark Crystal
Labyrinth
Stanley Kubrick's Paths of Glory
The Magnificent Seven
Sid and Nancy
Nicholas Nickleby
The Manhatten Project
The Holcroft Covenant
Lenny
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
Guys and Dolls
The Great Train robbery
Hoosiers
The Miracle Worker
Witness for the Prosecution
Four Weddings and a Funeral
The Defiant Ones
Mr. Brooks
Barbershop
Manhatten
Koyaanisqatsi
Powaqqatsi
The French Lieutenant's Woman
Mississippi Burning
The 7th Voyage of Sinbad (Harryhausen)
The Golden Voyage of Sinbad (Harryhausen)
Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger (Harryhausen)

The entire James Bond catalog
The entire Peter Sellers "Pink Panther" catalog
Every Rocky Film
The Three Stooges Catalog of Shorts
The entire AIP catalog of classic horror films starring Vincent Price

...and I could keep typing for hours since there are thousands of films. Get the whole picture? Go buy a Blu-ray player.

Calm down. :)

You still aren't answering his question.

Sony will follow the money, though it may take a while. If HD DVD "wins," there will eventually be a huge installed base. Sony will not turn a blind eye to that. Period. To think otherwise just shows your judgement is just biased and frankly wrong.

Calm down. :)

Huh? I am quite comfortable and relaxed. But thank you for your concern. ;) And I most certainly did answer the question posed by the thread. It may not be the answer you seek but it is my opinion.

The question: Even if HD-DVD were to "win" would Blu-Ray really go away?

The Answer: No. With the catalog that Sony owns, Blu-ray is virtually guaranteed to survive. At a minimum it may coexist with HD DVD. But I still believe Blu-ray ultimately wins. A catalog that will never be produced on HD DVD.

In short, the question posed by the thread is as likely as VHS making a comeback. Sony's ownership of thousands of titles in the Columbia and MGM catalog as well as its continued output as a functioning studio make it virtually impossible for HD DVD to pull off a total win. The best they can hope for is coexistence. On the other hand, as I stated previously, there is nothing stopping the other studios from being neutral or exclusive to Blu-ray. That is why I am very confident in my Blu-ray software purchases and will continue to hold out from purchasing HD DVD titles for at least another 18 months.

Huh? I am quite comfortable and relaxed. But thank you for your concern. ;) And I most certainly did answer the question posed by the thread. It may not be the answer you seek but it is my opinion.

The question: Even if HD-DVD were to "win" would Blu-Ray really go away?
The Answer: No. With the catalog that Sony owns, Blu-ray is virtually guaranteed to survive. At a minimum it may coexist with HD DVD. But I still believe Blu-ray ultimately wins

I bet that is what they though about the psx v. xbox v nintendo.

both will survive.

The thread should be titled: If the sky were to fall tomorrow, and other unlikely events...

Look, just weeks ago Toshiba averted its near Code Blue (no pun inteded) by desperately infusing the Paramount coffers with an undisclosed large sum of$$$. HDDVD remains hobbled in an Intensive Care Unit and the DVD-fanboys are lining up once again to perform CPR. These guys are well represented here on the BluRay forums (some of them sporting fancy dual supporter logos) as they give their incessant mouth-to-mouth...

If BluRay dies, then the whole HD format will likely die, and we will have to wait for the next-gen technology which hopefully wiould come out as a unified format.

...and I could keep typing for hours since there are thousands of films. Get the whole picture? Go buy a Blu-ray player.
I already have one, and enjoy it plenty, so sorry that your incredibly long-winded post went to waste.

nice list of movies...I would buy 50% of those movies!

I agree with you...don't forget that Asia seems to be adopting Blu-Ray as well as we have seen many exclusive Blu-Ray releases. And how many billion of people do we have in Asia? Blu-Ray can only get better guys.

As for download, I would not pay for it. Even today with music, i never once paid it for my IPOD. I either buy the CD or "borrow" it from my friends. It's something special about owning a physical disc than having a file on your hard-drive that many people can download for free...it's to easy to access these files on the internet.

The point of my post is that the scenario will never happen. HD DVD simply cannot win the whole kitandkaboodle simply because Sony now owns a studio and has a vested interest in another, namely, MGM. It would take hell freezing over before you saw them supporting HD DVD. It's not like the Beta days. You will probably see digital downloads as the dominant player before Sony would relent and release its catalog on HD DVD.

So once again, the premise of his question is nearly impossible in my view. The only format that has the future possibility of access to all content available in high defnition is Blu-ray. HD DVD can certainly be dominant in the game but can never win the whole thing and Sony knows this. If you want to own and view Sony/Columbia or MGM titles (except those controlled by Warner Bros.) in high definition, you will have to buy a Blu-ray player eventually.

Sony owns Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group (result of a merger between Columbia Pictures and TriStar Pictures in 1998). It posesses a library of more than 4,000 films (including 12 Academy Award for Best Picture winners), as of 2004 this unit of Sony distributes about 22 films a year under its various studio brands in 67 countries. In addition, Sony owns 20% of the total equity (which includes 45% of the total outstanding common stock) of MGM Holdings.

Another interesting factoid is that producer/actor Tom Cruise and his production partner, Paula Wagner recently signed an agreement with MGM to run United Artists. Wagner will serve as United Artists' chief executive. Cruise will produce and star in films for UA and MGM will distribute the movies. All of which will probably be Blu-ray exclusives.

I hand picked a small number of the catalog titles that you will probably have no hope of ever adding to your collection withot a Blu-ray player.

Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Raging Bull
Dr. Strangelove
Lawrence of Arabia
Some Like It Hot
Annie Hall
The Best Years of Our Lives
Dances With Wolves
It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Midnight Cowboy
Platoon
Rainman
Silence of the Lambs
Men In Black
Gattaca
West Side Story
Marty
Heavy Metal
Seven Faces of Dr. Lao
The Fifth Element
Spider-man
Starship Troopers
Silverado
Leon-The Professional
Panic Room
12 Angry Men
John Carpenter's The Fog
Jon Carpenter's Escape From New York
Jeepers Creepers
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Cliffhanger
Mask of Zorro
Desperado
Guns of Navarone
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Das Boot
Bad Boys
The Patriot
On The Waterfront
From Here to Eternity
The Bridge on the River Kwai
Jason an the Argonauts (Ray Harryhausen)
In Cold Blood
Oliver!
Moby Dick
Straw Dogs
Robocop
Funny Girl
Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
The Way We Were
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
The Deep
Midnight Express
Kramer vs. Kramer
Stir Crazy
The Graduate
Used Cars
Annie
Absence of Malice
Stripes
Tootsie
Ghandi
The Big Chill
Ghostbusters
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Hang 'Em High
A Fistful of Dollars
The Reurn of the Living Dead
Get Shorty
The Karate Kid
Stand By Me
The Last Emperor
Starman
Misery
City Slickers
A Few Good Men
Groundhog Day
The People vs. Larry Flynt
Air Force One
Somethings Gotta Give
Moonstruck
Thelma and Louise
Hannibal
Legally Blonde
The Amityville Horror
Koyaanisqatsi
Apt Pupil
Spaceballs
New York, New York
The Princess Bride
Taxi Driver
The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
A Bridge Too Far
Charly
Fargo
To Live and Die in L.A.
In the Heat of the Night
The Cotton Club
No Way Out
Prizzi's Honor
They Shoot Horses Don't They?
Valley Girl
Mr. Mom
True Confessions
F/X
Mermaids
The Beatles' Yellow Submarine
The Trip to Bountiful
Broadway Danny Rose
Rob Roy
The Producers
The Man in the Iron Mask
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
In the Heat of the Night
They Call Me Mr. Tibbs
Red River
Carrie
A Fish Called Wanda
Stanley Kubrick's Paths of Glory
The Magnificent Seven
Sid and Nancy
Nicholas Nickleby
The Manhatten Project
The Holcroft Covenant
Lenny
Guys and Dolls
The Great Train robbery
Hoosiers
The Miracle Worker
Mad Max
Witness for the Prosecution
Four Weddings and a Funeral
The Defiant Ones
Mr. Brooks
Barbershop
Manhatten
The French Lieutenant's Woman
Mississippi Burning

Every James Bond film
Every Pink Panther film (Peter Sellers)
Every Rocky Film
The Three Stooges Catalog of Shorts
The entire AIP catalog of classic horror films starring Vincent Price

...and I could keep typing for hours since there are thousands of films. Get the whole picture? Go buy a Blu-ray player.

Mark my words. Blu-ray will not win this format war due to overwhelming advantage that HD DVD has in built-in infrastructure with existing DVD lines. However, Blu-ray will not entirely go away. It will remain as a niche format for videophiles much like Criterion has been for DVDs. Sony and perhaps even Universal may license "Criterion" or similar separate entity to release their catalogs in high bitrate Blu-ray disc at 2 to 3 times the price of pedestrian HD DVD counterparts.

Mark my words. Blu-ray will not win this format war due to overwhelming advantage that HD DVD has in built-in infrastructure with existing DVD lines.

Mark my words, it won't even be a factor. As demand grows so will production capabilities.

Singulus Reports New Blu-ray Production Line Orders

Singulus has announced that they have received two new orders for Blu-ray production lines to be delivered to customers in Asia and Europe. These new orders clearly show the momentum Blu-ray is gaining internationally. Initially, these two plants will exclusively produce BD-25s, but can easily be upgraded for BD-50 production.

and the parade of news from just this week alone from IFA...

Acer Joins BDA
Loewe Introduces Blutech Vision Blu-ray Player
Sharp Aquos BD-HP20S Blu-ray Player
Philips Announces New Blu-ray Player
China Hualu Group Co., Ltd Joins BDA
BenQ Announces $199 BD-ROM PC Drive
Daewoo Displays Profile 2.0 Player
Sony Announces New Blu-ray Player
Samsung Details Upcoming Blu-ray Players
Studio Canal Now Supports Blu-ray
Mitsubishi Developing 3D Blu-ray Player

Lets see, HD DVD got a crappy $199 Chinese player from Venturer (whoever the hell that is...). I will give HD DVD props for the Paramount news but many reports have that deal lasting anywhere from 12 to 18 months. There is no investment for Paramount to do the money grab with HD DVD and then just calmly begin spitting out Blu-rays next year all over again.

Man O man, these companies are so stupid to be jumping aboard a sinking ship. :rolleyes:

...so sorry that your incredibly long-winded post went to waste.

No apologies necessary Bryce, I actually enjoy being long-winded and setting things straight. It gives me an opportunity to debate the facts. But thanks for your concern.;)

Mark my words, it won't even be a factor. As demand grows so will production capabilities.

I think Paidgeek stated in his insiders thread that current BD-50 capacities are several million discs per month. How many Blu-ray movies have been sold to date world wide? I know the number was 1.6million to date for US recently including both BD-25 and BD-50. That's what, like 1 week's worth of production at full capacity right now? What are the lines doing for the remaining 51 weeks? At cost of $2 million dollars per line, that's a lot of down time. Production capabilities are there now to cover Blu-ray for the foreseeable future since with metrics like that, it'll never go beyond being niche.

I bet that is what they though about the psx v. xbox v nintendo.

both will survive.

Well it is apples and oranges really. Yes HD DVD can survive. The point of my post is simply the best scenario HD DVD can hope for. The only format that can win is Blu-ray. Once again, Sony owns a studio as well as the Columbia Tristar catalog. It also has a large interest in the MGM catalog. We are talking thousands of films that will in all likelihood NEVER be released on HD DVD. So Blu-ray really has time on its side. The longer this thing stretches out the lower Blu-ray prices will fall. People who want those titles in high definition will eventually buy a Blu-ray player. If the HD DVD exclusive studios went neutral, HD DVD would die a slow death of attrition because you won't need an HD DVD player to enjoy all that is available in high definition. I believe Sony and Toshiba know this to be the case. The best HD DVD can do is survive.

Mark my words, it won't even be a factor. As demand grows so will production capabilities.



and the parade of news from just this week alone from IFA...

Acer Joins BDA
Loewe Introduces Blutech Vision Blu-ray Player
Sharp Aquos BD-HP20S Blu-ray Player
Philips Announces New Blu-ray Player
China Hualu Group Co., Ltd Joins BDA
BenQ Announces $199 BD-ROM PC Drive
Daewoo Displays Profile 2.0 Player
Sony Announces New Blu-ray Player
Samsung Details Upcoming Blu-ray Players
Studio Canal Now Supports Blu-ray
Mitsubishi Developing 3D Blu-ray Player

Lets see, HD DVD got a crappy $199 Chinese player from Venturer (whoever the hell that is...). I will give HD DVD props for the Paramount news but many reports have that deal lasting anywhere from 12 to 18 months. There is no investment for Paramount to do the money grab with HD DVD and then just calmly begin spitting out Blu-rays next year all over again.

Man O man, these companies are so stupid to be jumping aboard a sinking ship. :rolleyes:

Not to rain on your parade, I know you're a super strong Blu-Ray supporter. However be realistic, a $199 HD-DVD player (MSRP, will be $150 or less) will sell more than all of those new BR CE companies combined. As shown recently $199 is the price point for J6P, below that is just gravy.

I expect some long winded post how crazy this opinion is, but we both know price is very important. It's the sole reason why I keep asking why the BDA isn't pushing for a $200 or less player instead of many more $500+ one's that will sell horrible against the PS3.

...since with metrics like that, it'll never go beyond being niche.

Blu-ray is already growing faster than DVD did during the same time period. I don't think that is a prediction that has any basis in historical terms. However, it could very well remain a niche format. The studios and manufacturers better start doing a better job of informing their consumers or most will remain indifferent.

Well it is apples and oranges really. Yes HD DVD can survive. The point of my post is simply the best scenario HD DVD can hope for. The only format that can win is Blu-ray. Once again, Sony owns a studio as well as the Columbia Tristar catalog. It also has a large interest in the MGM catalog. We are talking thousands of films that will in all likelihood NEVER be released on HD DVD. So Blu-ray really has time on its side. The longer this thing stretches out the lower Blu-ray prices will fall. People who want those titles in high definition will eventually buy a Blu-ray player. If the HD DVD exclusive studios went neutral, HD DVD would die a slow death of attrition because you won't need an HD DVD player to enjoy all that is available in high definition. I believe Sony and Toshiba know this to be the case. The best HD DVD can do is survive.

too you it might be apples and oranges

that little "perpective" that you posted has been posted MANY a times by fanboys from all the manufactures regardless of what the product is. Yet here, most are enjoying a share of the market in thier respective categories be it consoles, cell phones, computer and now HD media. Not even betamax suffered a death, all it suffered was a smaller share of the consumer market but a bigger share in the business sector up until 2000.

The only time as of recent, that has produced a format death, was when the company itself folds due to financial issues.


niether of the HDx companies are in any financial troubles. As a matter of fact all of them are extremely profitable.

Not to rain on your parade, I know you're a super strong Blu-Ray supporter. However be realistic, a $199 HD-DVD player (MSRP, will be $150 or less) will sell more than all of those new BR CE companies combined. As shown recently $199 is the price point for J6P, below that is just gravy.

I expect some long winded post how crazy this opinion is, but we both know price is very important. It's the sole reason why I keep asking why the BDA isn't pushing for a $200 or less player instead of many more $500+ one's that will sell horrible against the PS3.

I take the time to clearly and concisely express my point-of-view. Characterizing my posts as "long-winded" merely serves to portray you as insecure. I have not characterized you in a negative way. I just disagree with you and I make my points by backing them up with as much information as I can gather.

Look, HD DVD has had a price advantage since its inception. You know what? They still haven't been able to overcome Blu-ray's installed base of stand alone players and PS3s. In fact, recent sales numbers have the combined sales of Blu-ray standalone players catching up with Toshiba. Sony's PS3 game console may not have lived up to expectations out of the gate, but you can bet your sweet patoot that as prices on that unit fall, unit sales will rise. There is a huge installed base of PS2 owners who would love to upgrade to the machine that allows them to play state-of-the-art games, high definition movies as well as their collection of PS2 games and DVDs.

Sure, low price is certainly a factor but there is also a marketing term called "perceived value." If you price yourself too low, consumers believe your product to be inferior to the competition. They might sell thousands of those Venturer players. But will people seeking that cheap a high definition player also be willing to plunk down two to three times as much for high definition software? The psychology just doesn't add up. I have never bought an off brand DVD player. Why? They never last long and can be incredibly glitchy. As Bill Hunt asked in his column, "What kind of customer support will be offered?" That Venturer player better be solid or it could really cause blow back for HD DVD as thousands of Chinese players are boxed up and returned to Walmart. Consumers trust Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Sharp, Denon, Mitsubishi and even Daewoo. All Blu-ray manufacturers.

I take the time to clearly and concisely express my point-of-view. Characterizing my posts as "long-winded" merely serve to show your insecurity. I have not characterized you in a negative way. I just disagree with you and I make my points by backing them up with as much information as I can gather.

Look, HD DVD has had a price advantage since its inception. You know what? They still haven't been able to overcome Blu-ray's installed base of stand alone players and PS3s. In fact, recent sales numbers have the combined sales of Blu-ray standalone players catching up with Toshiba. Sony's PS3 game console may not have lived up to expectation out of the gate, but you can bet your sweet patoot that as prices on that unit fall unit sales will rise. There is a huge installed base of PS2 owners that would love to upgrade to the machine that allows them to play state-of-the-art games, high definition movies as well as their collection of PS2 games and DVDs.

Sure, low price is certainly a factor but there is also a marketing term called "perceived value." If you price yourself too low, consumers believe your product to be inferior to the competition. They might sell thousands of those Venturer players. But will people seeking that cheap a high definition player also be willing to plunk down two to three times as much for high definition software? The psychology just doesn't add up. I have never bought an off brand DVD player. Why? They never last long and can be incredibly glitchy. As Bill Hunt asked in his column, "What kind of customer support will be offered?" That Venturer player better be solid or it could really cause blow back for HD DVD as thousands of Chinese players are boxed up and returned to Walmart. Consumers trust Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Sharp, Denon, Mitsubishi and even Daewoo. All Blu-ray manufacturers.

Thank you for living up to my expectation :)

I just have one question.. For three months we have talked on these forums about the need to have Chinese players for Blu-Ray. Now that HD-DVD is about to release one everyone says the quality will be low and support nil. Didn't you expect this with the BD versions as well? Or is BD inherently high quality, no matter the manufacturer?

Sorry two questions :(

Thank you for living up to my expectation :)

I just have one question.. For three months we have talked on these forums about the need to have Chinese players for Blu-Ray. Now that HD-DVD is about to release one everyone says the quality will be low and support nil. Didn't you expect this with the BD versions as well? Or is BD inherently high quality, no matter the manufacturer?

Sorry two questions :(

For somebody who thinks I am long-winded you sure ask me alot of questions. ;)

Let me indulge you. First, I don't think that strategy will work and second, you generally get what you pay for. How's that for an empty response? :)

For somebody who thinks I am long-winded you sure ask me alot of questions. ;)

Let me indulge you. First, I don't think that strategy will work and second, you generally get what you pay for. How's that for an empty response? :)

Nice :)

Now let me post the shocker, I agree with you. You do get what you pay for, however I believe we have to get J6P out there buying either of these formats for one of them to take off. To do that you *must* break the $200 price barrier & get your items mass marketed in the lowbie electronic departments of Target, Walmart, K-Mart, Big Lots, etc..

I would never buy one, or ever recommend someone to buy one. However they will sell like hot-cakes once they get there.

I would never buy one, or ever recommend someone to buy one. However they will sell like hot-cakes once they get there.

That remains to be seen. I still think a $399 PS3 or Blu-ray player with a familiar name would clobber a $200 Chinese HD DVD player, especially in these days of massive Chinese product recalls. Consumers are a lot more savvy than you think. They will weigh all the info available and ask themselves "I wonder why this is so much cheaper than the Blu-ray players?' and then they proclaim, "Hey, those movies are only on Blu-ray!"

That remains to be seen. I still think a $399 PS3 or Blu-ray player with a familiar name would clobber a $200 Chinese HD DVD player, especially in these days of massive Chinese product recalls. Consumers are a lot more savvy than you think. They will weigh all the info available and ask themselves "I wonder why this is so much cheaper than the Blu-ray players?' and then they proclaim, "Hey, those movies are only on Blu-ray!"

I really don't think consumers are savvy. 79% of all products sold in Walmart are made in China. Walmart being the #1 retailer leads me to believe people could care less.

I do agree though the Chinese recalls have raised some awareness, however people forget these problems when they see it hit their wallets.

too you it might be apples and oranges

that little "perpective" that you posted has been posted MANY a times by fanboys from all the manufactures regardless of what the product is. Yet here, most are enjoying a share of the market in thier respective categories be it consoles, cell phones, computer and now HD media. Not even betamax suffered a death, all it suffered was a smaller share of the consumer market but a bigger share in the business sector up until 2000.

The only time as of recent, that has produced a format death, was when the company itself folds due to financial issues.


niether of the HDx companies are in any financial troubles. As a matter of fact all of them are extremely profitable.

What did any of that have to do with my posts? Once again I find it odd that your post begins with a subtle jab, ...that little "perspective" that you posted. Does the fact that I make too much sense threaten you some how?

The point I made was that Sony owns a huge catalog of well over 4,000 titles that will likely never be released on HD DVD. So all I stated was that the best HD DVD can ever hope for is coexistence. The Sony/ MGM catalog would be enough in itself to keep Blu-ray alive even if all the other studios went exclusively HD DVD (a scenario also unlikely to occur). On the other hand, if the other studios went neutral, there wouldn't be a need for HD DVD because Blu-ray would give you access to all high definition titles. This is an outcome that will never be realized by the HD DVD format. It will be a cold day in hell before Sony begins producing its catalog on the competing format. How's that for a little perspective?

It is not fanboyism it is pure logic. Time is on Sony's side.

If Blu-Ray fails as a HDM format, it'll stick around as a storage format for computers, as well as the native format for the PS3 (games).

If Blu-Ray fails as a HDM format, it'll stick around as a storage format for computers, as well as the native format for the PS3 (games).

I agree 100% for PS3 games, however I doubt it will make any traction as a storage format. NAS (network attached storage) and Flash are far too cheap & available in the marketplace for BD to take ground. It's $.09gb for BD, $.03gb for Flash.

Hello? I think everyone knows that lowest price tends to do better. However, Blu-Ray is doing fine as is and they will adjust their price accordingly. If you run a billion dollar business, then you'll know when to adjust them. The last I checked, blu-ray content is selling 2:1 than HD-DVD content. Based on that information, blu-ray players still exceed HD-DVD players. Until I see concrete facts and numbers that these $199 HD-DVD players make a difference, then I'll believe it. For now, it means diddly nothing.

As for a blu-ray player (including PS3) being $199, it's a matter of time that it will go down in price just like every electronic gadget we buy today. Remember when HD-DVD or Blu-Ray first came out with their initial price? I'm sure you're smart enough to know that these prices will go down eventually to even $50...bet on it! It might take 5 years from now, but it will.

Not to rain on your parade, I know you're a super strong Blu-Ray supporter. However be realistic, a $199 HD-DVD player (MSRP, will be $150 or less) will sell more than all of those new BR CE companies combined. As shown recently $199 is the price point for J6P, below that is just gravy.

I expect some long winded post how crazy this opinion is, but we both know price is very important. It's the sole reason why I keep asking why the BDA isn't pushing for a $200 or less player instead of many more $500+ one's that will sell horrible against the PS3.

...But many retailers, including Wal-Mart, Ultimate Electronics and Bjorn’s, say they are not committed to carrying the Venturer player, preferring instead to underscore products from bigger brand companies.

“...At this early stage in the market development, consumers generally want branded product,” said Jim Bottoms, U&S director. “But low-priced non-branded players force the branded suppliers to review their pricing.”

Gee didn't I already say something to that effect? Full article here: Reaction Mixed to Cheap Chinese Players (http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6473655)

If BluRay dies, then the whole HD format will likely die
because sony is the be-all end-all of everything? :rolleyes:

because sony is the be-all end-all of everything? :rolleyes:

Well with Microshaft and Sony involved on either side of the Fence, would you expect anything different that what is going on! I wish Microsoft would stick to fixing there software, or creating better software and Sony would stick to producing decent video products and stay out of the movie industry. But these guys are pushing there muscle around and we are stuck in the middle. It all comes down to which you think is the lesser of two evils, or just a better format.... Right now for me Blu-Ray is....

What did any of that have to do with my posts? Once again I find it odd that your post begins with a subtle jab, . Does the fact that I make too much sense threaten you some how?

The point I made was that Sony owns a huge catalog of well over 4,000 titles that will likely never be released on HD DVD. So all I stated was that the best HD DVD can ever hope for is coexistence. The Sony/ MGM catalog would be enough in itself to keep Blu-ray alive even if all the other studios went exclusively HD DVD (a scenario also unlikely to occur). On the other hand, if the other studios went neutral, there wouldn't be a need for HD DVD because Blu-ray would give you access to all high definition titles. This is an outcome that will never be realized by the HD DVD format. It will be a cold day in hell before Sony begins producing its catalog on the competing format. How's that for a little perspective?

It is not fanboyism it is pure logic. Time is on Sony's side.

threaten me?

Here let me educate you on myself on this types of matters.

Neither of these two formats will effect how I put food on my table, keep my roof over my head and pay for all the things I own, so in essecnce I am literally immune from all the noise, FUD, BS etc from both camps as I own none, and at this point care to own none. Just like the average consumer that waits, I myself wait on the sideline for those prices to keep spiraling the only way they can go when there is competition, and that is down down down.

as for your tunnel visioned logic.

Both sides have declared a "winner" numerous times yet the other side still exist. I remember CLEARLY a year ago that blu was tooting that horn quite loudly, 6 months ago red, 3 months ago blu and then with the recent paramount news, red again.

You and all the cheerleaders from both camp always deny being a "fan" yet here you are trying to convince the op as to why blu would not lose and at the very least be a stalemate..............If you really were "not a fanatic", why even type that entire rhetoric?

It is not for education as most everyone on these forums knows what the two competing HD format media is and what they both bring to the table.

as for cold day in hell, no such thing. The probabilty of it happening in this day and age, with the financials of all intrested parties. Only if one side or the other start loosing money (and to make it perfectly clear. In Sony's case, not just the gaming division. I mean Sony itself) and posting serious financial losses they are not going anywhere.

BTW Your song and dance is not new, you are about 25 years late to that party. But just to draw parellels with your "reasoning" and the other "fans" reasoning , the intel fanatics where in a state of joy when they could fnally kill the lesser of there competitors. That being AMD, Cyrix and crew. Fast foward 15 years down the road and nothing could be further from the truth and both are profitable and both are making thier profits.

This thread has been hijacked by one poster, he decided to give it a spin, and the thread went the opposite way. It's his thread or nobody's.

This thread has been hijacked by one poster, he decided to give it a spin, and the thread went the opposite way. It's his thread or nobody's.

Ayup.

MEC2
P.S. To answer the original poster... dual format players will insulate all of us from format failure. That said, if BR fails, at least HD is the less expensive "life boat" of the two...

What did any of that have to do with my posts? Once again I find it odd that your post begins with a subtle jab, . Does the fact that I make too much sense threaten you some how?

The point I made was that Sony owns a huge catalog of well over 4,000 titles that will likely never be released on HD DVD. So all I stated was that the best HD DVD can ever hope for is coexistence. The Sony/ MGM catalog would be enough in itself to keep Blu-ray alive even if all the other studios went exclusively HD DVD (a scenario also unlikely to occur). On the other hand, if the other studios went neutral, there wouldn't be a need for HD DVD because Blu-ray would give you access to all high definition titles. This is an outcome that will never be realized by the HD DVD format. It will be a cold day in hell before Sony begins producing its catalog on the competing format. How's that for a little perspective?

It is not fanboyism it is pure logic. Time is on Sony's side.


This is what they said about Beta. Sony would never make movies on VHS. I also heard them say they would never use any other storage media in their electronics other than Memory Sticks. They also mentioned something about their commitment to their music store, but I heard last night that it's closing early next year. Sony will do what makes sense for it's shareholders.

When I first head the Paramount/Dreamworks news I felt depressed that I had sunk thousands into movies that may be on a format that may not be around for a long time.

Then I realized something: The Paramount/Dreamworks deal was a move of desperation by HD-DVD and nothing more. Why would members of the HD-DVD group PAY for studio support if Paramount/Dreamworks was going to go HD-DVD exclusive as Paramount keeps hinting at when the payout topic continues to come up? Why would members of the HD-DVD group PAY for studio support if HD-DVD has amazing studio support and sales?

The more you think about it, the more you see how much of a move of desperation it actually was.

Blu-Ray stated it won the "War" yet HD-DVD pokes fun at that statement. When you look at that state of things, Blu-Ray has won the war weather HD-DVD wants to admit it or not that is another story.

Blu-Ray stated it won the "War" yet HD-DVD pokes fun at that statement. When you look at that state of things, Blu-Ray has won the war weather HD-DVD wants to admit it or not that is another story.

WHHAAATT???

NOBODY has won ANYTHING! Yes BD is slightly ahead in the game. I am not sure I believe 2:1... there seems to be a lot of controversy on that, but it's a moot point because it could be 3:1 for BD and it still wouldn't make a stick of difference. TOTAL COMBINED SALES between BOTH BD and HD DVD were just barely enough to surpass VHS sales for 2007 so far. In other words total hi def sales are so insignificant when compared to dvd sales that it's almost laughable. there won't be ANYBODY even coming CLOSE to winning until hi def has AT LEAST taken a serious bite into the dvd world. With an untapped market so big... anything can happen and it is still very much anybody's game. It was this way before the Paramount decision and it remains after the paramount decision.

BD was ahead (and still is I believe!?)... sure... but NOBODY was or is anywhere NEAR winning.

Take an objective look at the Paramount deal. If HD-DVD was doing so well in this "war" why would they go out and pay 150 million dollars for a studio to support them?

Paramount could/would have joined them for free if all of the BS HDDVD and Paramount is putting out was true.

The fact of the matter is that HD-DVD is hanging on by a thread - as illustrated by this deal - and it is only a matter of time before people take an objective look at this and realize that the future is Blu-Ray.

Take an objective look at the Paramount deal. If HD-DVD was doing so well in this "war" why would they go out and pay 150 million dollars for a studio to support them?


There are 2 things that have not yet been proven:

HD DVD bought Paramount
<<<<<<<AND>>>>>>
BD bought Disney

So I guess maybe BOTH of them were feeling a tad insecure??

Even if HD DVD were to take over the market, I won't have to replace my Blu-ray's because I'll always have a PS3 and there will be PS3's on the market for at least the next 3 years to play them for me.

I find this possibility unlikely, though. Paramount was a payoff, not a trend in the industry. Toshiba or Microsoft or whoever did the payoff does not have the cash to pay everyone off. ;)

Sales still favor Blu-ray.

I just want one format to win, so these long winded, redundant threads will stop finally. All the Fanboys from each side, act like they have something to do with one of the formats. Guess what people, until there is a single format, You either pick one, and enjoy the movies that format offers, buy both, and get it all, or sit it out and risk that both will fail or one will win. I am now format neutral, and cannot see enough difference between either format, to conclude that one format is better than the other. They are both great, and at this point don't care which one wins. I just want the bitching to stop.

Someone earlier mention that in asia there is more blu-ray sales.

it is true. i am from singapore. Although most major discs shop sell both hd-dvd and blu-ray, it seems that ppl here support more blu-ray. the reason is beacuse, there is more blu-ray players sold here than hd-dvd. at the moment there is only one hd-dvd model which is the E1. There are alot of ps3 owners in singapore so there is alot of blu-ray buyers. furthermore there is also blu-ray ads in tv to educate the ppl. since my main player is ps, i sure buy alot of blu-rays .

Thanks

I just want the bitching to stop.

No you don't. You opened and read the thread didn't you? Hell, you even found purpose in it and left a post.