hey people. this should put a stop to the confusion caused by BDA's intentional left out of the 'revenue' bit. After the HD DVD's press conference that clearly contradict the figure, a BD insider Talkstr8t had no choice but to come clean and declare that the 63% was total revenue spent on standalone high-def players.

The original press quote by gizmodo:

In US Blu-ray has 63% standalone unit market share and over 66% of hi-def disc sales

Confused AVS member wanting an answer from Insiders:

question = total revenue you mean X amount of dollars from POS sales vs actual units shipped?

Answer =

Yes, 63% of total revenue spent on standalone high-def players.

It's called marketing. At least no information was left out here, as opposed to the HD DVD PRG's claim regarding "standalone player sales being much higher in Europe", while conveniently ignoring the fact that when factoring in game consoles Blu-ray has a 94% market share.

quoted from the insiders' thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=899842&page=6

Yea I noticed that.

Of course revenue would be higher on BD, they cost more!!

I know. This is probably the biggest example of the BDA trying to clearly misslead people about Blu-Ray I have evern seen. It shows 2 things.

1.) the BDA uses poor marketing tactics which need to rely on bending the trueth or missleading people. Do they not have enough TRUE good news about their format that they have to result to this? Do they think this makes them look good?

2.) The BDA thinks we are studid. I actually feel insulted.

Its like fuel companies saying....people are buying way more fuel now then they did a few years ago Why? Just look at how much more money we are making.


FU BDA........FU.

No surprise. They did the same thing a while back with that "NPD study" claiming that stand alone player sales were dead even in the US.

Great response by Talkstraightey though. "no information was left out" except that they were talking about dollars and not install player numbers as they led everyone to believe.

I guess that's called "marketing" according to our resident expert.

FWIW, as when this happened months ago, I saw right through it, but to call deception "marketing" is like equating a salesman to a thief. Maybe in his world...

Nothing was left out, he says?

Right. Nothing but the relevant metric. :rolleyes:

LOL

So I guess the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in the US then huh? Wow, how sad.

It's not really all that surprising they would use how much money consumers spent. Companies use that figure all the time to show how much of the consumer spending they are getting. It's kind of like this article

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=media&storyID=nN13363865

They want to show that more consumer dollars are being spent on their products then the competition.

It might a bit early in the life of HD players to be using this method but really it's not all that unusual.

Well, deception is the order of the day for BDA marketing. Remember the Fox "chart" from CES?

When the BDA folk complained at the press conference that Paramount had the same figures as everyone else, and couldn't answer why they would switch, they actually believe people would buy this 63 percent crap. Paramount obviously didn't.

LOL

So I guess the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in the US then huh? Wow, how sad.

Even though the PS3 is more than double the Wii price, they still wouldn't have a higher market share than Nintendo using their new "market share metric".

It really annoys me that they can give a figure without a reference. I could say that HD DVD has a 100% market share and neglect to say that it's only in my household.............

LOL

So I guess the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in the US then huh? Wow, how sad.
Early on, Sony did used the revenue numbers to describe how PS3 was doing well against the competition after a couple of NPD periods. They stopped doing that when they started getting outsold 3+ to 1.

Of course this kind of propaganda aren't effective in the console world, anyone can find NPD numbers for USA and Media Create numbers for Japan.

What a great way to spin the numbers. Back in '06 prior to the PS3 with the $1000 Blu-Ray players definitely helped. Using $$ a $500 Blu-Ray player = $300 HD DVD player + $180 360 HD DVD player... not bad... I gotta give Sony props to finding a nice way to spin.

Actually, the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in revenue, despite the large gap between the two sytems:
1.91 million sales of the PS3 in the US x $599.99 = $1,145,980,900
4.46 million sales of the Wii in the US x $249.99 = $1,114,955,400

And I do remember the press releases for the PS3 where they focused on revenue rather than sales. I guess they must be using the same marketing team. lol

This is very missleading, to say the least. Par for the course from the BDA. Sad really.

What a load of crap from the BDA. Seriously.

Laughable. Talkstr8t loses all credibility in my book when he then suggests "At least no information was left out here". BDA insider should be changed to BS insider.

this is just as stupid as HD DVD counting the PS3 for attach rate and not for player sales. It never did make sense to me that HD DVD could have a higher attach rate and higher sales for hardware but be outsold 2:1 in software, haha.

Thats what these folks all get paid for, they both deceive, and they both are good at it.

This smears NPD too. How come they don't publish unit numbers like they do for game machines? How come we can get DVD volume numbers but not HDM, hmm N/VS? Sweet deals?

this is just as stupid as HD DVD counting the PS3 for attach rate and not for player sales. It never did make sense to me that HD DVD could have a higher attach rate and higher sales for hardware but be outsold 2:1 in software, haha.

Thats what these folks all get paid for, they both deceive, and they both are good at it.

Its called not being able to have it both ways. The BDA can't count PS3's in standalone sales only when it benefits them, and then magically leave that out of the equation when they are called on things like attach rate or the PS3 undercutting other BD players from other manufacturers. You can't count the PS3 in your marketing, then leave it out when criticizing Toshiba for subsidizing its players.

Its called not getting it both ways.

Not only are they using the $ amount to calculate a 63% market share in sales revenue which we now all understand was not unit sales. They also may have included the total revenue from LG HD DVD/ Blu-Ray units to make it look even better (we will never know). But again this behavour is typical of Sony, too bad that Disney is part of this team since it makes them look just as bad for supporting the BS coming out of the BDA camp.

Well you know what this means don't you? The software sales ratio is no longer 2 to 1 or 66/33.

Nope - I declare HD DVD is doing MUCH better - 60/40 - because Combo's are more expensive:D

WOW! Hope they don't sell too many Pioneer BD players. For every one they sell - that's 3 A2's! Thank God Denon is going to be late to the party!

So anyone figure out what the true deal was with the movie 300? I mean the HD DVD costs $5.00 more than the BD.:rolleyes:

You make it sound as though the information was dragged out of him, kicking and screaming through cunning investigation and interrogation, rather than simply asking a question and having him answer it with a very concise and straight forward "Yes, 63% of total revenue spent on standalone high-def players."

He had a choice whether or not to answer it, and he did, quite clearly.

Its called not being able to have it both ways. The BDA can't count PS3's in standalone sales only when it benefits them, and then magically leave that out of the equation when they are called on things like attach rate or the PS3 undercutting other BD players from other manufacturers. You can't count the PS3 in your marketing, then leave it out when criticizing Toshiba for subsidizing its players.

Its called not getting it both ways.

I agree 100%, but im not as rabid as you folks and not willing to admit that both camps are deceiving...HD DVD does the same with the attach rates and sales of players in regard to the PS3......all marketing is shady, its not th eBDA, thats teh difference between the fans and fanboys.....fans can step back and call it as it is, and thats BS from both sides, fanboys have their heads in the sand when its convenient.....like in regards to this marketing with HD DVD and BD.

This is a joke, the only relevence is for 3rd art manufacturers if this wer ein ratio to revenue, but if it isnt it doesnt matter to us or them and is only a "our number is bigger and the pie is more blu so its good" Its stupid and its meaningless and its not relevent.

The same for HD DVD attach rate crap.

Its called not being able to have it both ways. The BDA can't count PS3's in standalone sales only when it benefits them, and then magically leave that out of the equation when they are called on things like attach rate or the PS3 undercutting other BD players from other manufacturers. You can't count the PS3 in your marketing, then leave it out when criticizing Toshiba for subsidizing its players.

Its called not getting it both ways.

the PS3 is the same price MSRP as the BDPs300, so that is not a valid argument at this point anymore.

Michael,

Its called not being able to have it both ways. The BDA can't count PS3's in standalone sales only when it benefits them, and then magically leave that out of the equation when they are called on things like attach rate or the PS3 undercutting other BD players from other manufacturers. You can't count the PS3 in your marketing, then leave it out when criticizing Toshiba for subsidizing its players.

Its called not getting it both ways.

However, in all honesty, the HD DVD camp does the same thing, just in reverse.

I do find the double standard of the BD supporters odd though. Way back when the matrix and POTC came out, several of us pointed out that there was no difference between the two because they made the same amount of money. However, quite a few of the BD braintrust argued that was not valid and that the only thing that counts are unit sales.

Sad all the way around really.

Michael,



However, in all honesty, the HD DVD camp does the same thing, just in reverse.

I do find the double standard of the BD supporters odd though. Way back when the matrix and POTC came out, several of us pointed out that there was no difference between the two because they made the same amount of money. However, quite a few of the BD braintrust argued that was not valid and that the only thing that counts are unit sales.

Sad all the way around really.

pretty much nailed. Some people get so vested in this thing that they truly believe theyre fighting the good fight. These companies are all equally evil (relative to the situation obviously) They dont care about us or honesty, theyre trying to make a butt load of money.

I agree 100%, but im not as rabid as you folks and not willing to admit that both camps are deceiving...HD DVD does the same with the attach rates and sales of players in regard to the PS3......all marketing is shady, its not th eBDA, thats teh difference between the fans and fanboys.....fans can step back and call it as it is, and thats BS from both sides, fanboys have their heads in the sand when its convenient.....like in regards to this marketing with HD DVD and BD.

This is a joke, the only relevence is for 3rd art manufacturers if this wer ein ratio to revenue, but if it isnt it doesnt matter to us or them and is only a "our number is bigger and the pie is more blu so its good" Its stupid and its meaningless and its not relevent.

The same for HD DVD attach rate crap.

Really?

The HD DVD camp doesn't spin that number - the attach rate - because we count both the SAL and the AO. So we are counting all the HD DVD players. I mean only one reason to buy either right? To watch a movie in HD.

So we don't have the problem that the BDA does. That is why we don't have to do any spinning.

Of course we can now predict what is going to happen at CEDIA can't we? HD DVD will provide some hard facts on SAL and AO sales which will blow the 63% number into 2 million pieces - one for each PS3:)

Michael,



However, in all honesty, the HD DVD camp does the same thing, just in reverse.

I do find the double standard of the BD supporters odd though. Way back when the matrix and POTC came out, several of us pointed out that there was no difference between the two because they made the same amount of money. However, quite a few of the BD braintrust argued that was not valid and that the only thing that counts are unit sales.

Sad all the way around really.

The only other thing about that situation was we had 3-5 discs being pressed to make the same as on 2 discs....but ill reiterate that i agree with the fallacy and application that both sides have their head sin the sand when its convenient for them, no doubt about it.

Really?

The HD DVD camp doesn't spin that number - the attach rate - because we count both the SAL and the AO. So we are counting all the HD DVD players. I mean only one reason to buy either right? To watch a movie in HD.

So we don't have the problem that the BDA does. That is why we don't have to do any spinning.

Of course we can now predict what is going to happen at CEDIA can't we? HD DVD will provide some hard facts on SAL and AO sales which will blow the 63% number into 2 million pieces - one for each PS3:)

Lee, you are forgetting that it isnt merely the attach rate argument, its in one sentence they claim domination in players and the next they claim domination in attach rate...you cant have both and be outsold 2:1 in software ITS IMPOSSIBLE, MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Itd be different if they said our attach rate is through the roof and we have sold so many less players...but they dont, they get greedy and try to crown themselves in every area...its misleading, just like the percentages in the thread

Its kinda sad and adds to the already long list of poor and deceiving marketing strategy by Sony and BDA. Then again would you expect any different from these guys? Anybody remember the "Blu Forecast" page at the last CES?

Lee, you are forgetting that it isnt merely the attach rate argument, its in one sentence they claim domination in players and the next they claim domination in attach rate...you cant have both and be outsold 2:1 in software ITS IMPOSSIBLE, MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Itd be different if they said our attach rate is through the roof and we have sold so many less players...but they dont, they get greedy and try to crown themselves in every area...its misleading, just like the percentages in the thread

You must be new here right? Cause you really don't understand BD Math 101 - ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

You must be new here right? Cause you really don't understand BD Math 101 - ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

:cool:

i like how you tap out but still manage to dig the BDA even when HD DVD committing the same crime is thrown right in your face....impressive, i must say

Talkstr8t posted in the insiders thread: "By total player revenue (not counting game consoles), 63% has been Blu-ray." Interesting way to calculate market share. (Had to repost this here where it more appropriate.)



Gaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, by revenue? :eek:

Thats like the discussion of the 2006 NPD numbers from CES , where the BDA claimed parity in standalone sales even though HD DVD was outselling them in units by 2:1, because the Blu-ray players cost twice as much.

If you are trying to get more CE companies to join and produce players , high margin and high profits is a nice thing.

But high revenues with high costs might make low profits per units.

The number of hardware units sold is the appropriate indicator for the size of the installed base and for determining how fast the hardware adoption rate is going.

Total revenues might even be a useful indicator for software sales where there is a high margin per unit , as the retail costs are far above any production cost for the software.

But bragging about total revenues for software sales is just kinda talking about how much you are screwing the first adopters.

:cool:

i like how you tap out but still manage to dig the BDA even when HD DVD committing the same crime is thrown right in your face....impressive, i must say


So Inspector Steve - what crime is HD DVD guilty of? Please tell us.

Even though the PS3 is more than double the Wii price, they still wouldn't have a higher market share than Nintendo using their new "market share metric".

It really annoys me that they can give a figure without a reference. I could say that HD DVD has a 100% market share and neglect to say that it's only in my household.............


lmao :D

Lee, you are forgetting that it isnt merely the attach rate argument, its in one sentence they claim domination in players and the next they claim domination in attach rate...you cant have both and be outsold 2:1 in software ITS IMPOSSIBLE, MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Itd be different if they said our attach rate is through the roof and we have sold so many less players...but they dont, they get greedy and try to crown themselves in every area...its misleading, just like the percentages in the thread Not math impossible if the size of the one installed base is much lower than the size of the other installed base.

In the case the PS3 sales are order of magnitude 6-10 times the size of the standalone HD DVD players. Software is 1.5 times in favor of Blu-ray. The HD DVD players could still have a 4 software units per player sales rate compared to the 0.5 units per player for the PS3 under that scenario.

The attach rate does can give a measure of the leverage that future hardware sales can have as the installed base grows on affecting future software sales.

Its only an estimate , but if under that circumstance and the attach rate stayed the same. 100,000 additional hardware units sold would sell 400,000 or 50,000 software units for each side.

Not going happen as other factors affect the software sales, but one set of hardware will obviously probably sell ore software in the future than the other for the same hardware units sold.

So Inspector Steve - what crime is HD DVD guilty of? Please tell us.

I would simply say marketing Doctor Stewart......Im an avid BD supporter but im not going to sit here and justify this from the BDA......

Telling us they win in attach rate and win in hardware sales......attach rate is a direct variable with hardware sales, if hardware increases the software will according to attach rate....to say you have thehighest hardware sales and attach rate means you must then have the highest software total....

BDA, HD DVD......all business, Sony, MSFT, Nintendo, Viacom, Exxon, Bush Administration, whatever, when they release something it contains numbers that must appeal to them on paper, regardless of application...they are all guilty of deceivng and being childish in terms of marketing...thats what theyre guilty of, friend.

I agree 100%, but im not as rabid as you folks and not willing to admit that both camps are deceiving...HD DVD does the same with the attach rates and sales of players in regard to the PS3......all marketing is shady, its not th eBDA, thats teh difference between the fans and fanboys.....fans can step back and call it as it is, and thats BS from both sides, fanboys have their heads in the sand when its convenient.....like in regards to this marketing with HD DVD and BD.

This is a joke, the only relevence is for 3rd art manufacturers if this wer ein ratio to revenue, but if it isnt it doesnt matter to us or them and is only a "our number is bigger and the pie is more blu so its good" Its stupid and its meaningless and its not relevent.

The same for HD DVD attach rate crap.

by all means - PS3 should be left out of BD's sales equation. A recent study done showed how many percentage of PS3 did not even know that there is a BD drive in the PS3 ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Not math impossible if the size of the one installed base is much lower than the size of the other installed base.

In the case the PS3 sales are order of magnitude 6-10 times the size of the standalone HD DVD players. Software is 1.5 times in favor of Blu-ray. The HD DVD players could still have a 4 software units per player sales rate compared to the 0.5 units per player for the PS3 under that scenario.

The attach rate does can give a measure of the leverage that future hardware sales can have as the installed base grows on affecting future software sales.

Its only an estimate , but if under that circumstance and the attach rate stayed the same. 100,000 additional hardware units sold would sell 400,000 or 50,000 software units for each side.

Not going happen as other factors affect the software sales, but one set of hardware will obviously probably sell ore software in the future than the other for the same hardware units sold.

But that trumps the whole scenerio, one camp is claiming its leading BOTH.....we arent discussing "installed base" its HD DVD players and BD players.....HD DVD says more players and more attach rate....install base isnt in question...you cant have moreplayers and a better attach rate and be outsold...you can have less players and better attach rate (as HD DVD does) and you can have more players with a lower attach rate (BD does) but you cannot have both and have lower total software.

by all means - PS3 should be left out of BD's sales equation. A recent study done showed how many percentage of PS3 did not even know that there is a BD drive in the PS3 ? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And thats failed marketing by sony.....so wait a creepy baby with the black plague crawling through a room is supposed to tell me my PS3 is an all in one media hub......brilliant.

You make it sound as though the information was dragged out of him, kicking and screaming through cunning investigation and interrogation, rather than simply asking a question and having him answer it with a very concise and straight forward "Yes, 63% of total revenue spent on standalone high-def players."

He had a choice whether or not to answer it, and he did, quite clearly.

he did. i want to defend him because of that. BDA's PR tactics made BD insiders' life pure hell at AVS. Paidgeek was soo fed up, he left. BDA pull all the PR pranks and leave the insiders to defend them without armory.

But then this is the java insider that tried to paint HD DVD has lose another EXCLUSVIE studio is the form of Studio Canal. I personal never known they were exclusive to HD DVD. They did not share tables with HD DVD promo group's people at the CES claiming that they the chose HD DVD because of its finished specs and cheaper cost. They did not not what had been said by FOX or Disney all this while.

I would simply say marketing Doctor Stewart......Im an avid BD supporter but im not going to sit here and justify this from the BDA......

Telling us they win in attach rate and win in hardware sales......attach rate is a direct variable with hardware sales, if hardware increases the software will according to attach rate....to say you have thehighest hardware sales and attach rate means you must then have the highest software total....

BDA, HD DVD......all business, Sony, MSFT, Nintendo, Viacom, Exxon, Bush Administration, whatever, when they release something it contains numbers that must appeal to them on paper, regardless of application...they are all guilty of deceivng and being childish in terms of marketing...thats what theyre guilty of, friend.

So you are saying the BDA is full of Baloney? Well I can't disagre with that. Guess they thought the audience were schmucks to believe it right?

But you still haven't told me about HD DVD's crime. Only how the BDA thinks we are all morons and take their words at face value:

"We won"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months"

"There is no planned price cut on the PS3."

And you wonder why the HD DVD fans get so riled up when this happens?

I would simply say marketing Doctor Stewart......Im an avid BD supporter but im not going to sit here and justify this from the BDA......

Telling us they win in attach rate and win in hardware sales......attach rate is a direct variable with hardware sales, if hardware increases the software will according to attach rate....to say you have thehighest hardware sales and attach rate means you must then have the highest software total....

BDA, HD DVD......all business, Sony, MSFT, Nintendo, Viacom, Exxon, Bush Administration, whatever, when they release something it contains numbers that must appeal to them on paper, regardless of application...they are all guilty of deceivng and being childish in terms of marketing...thats what theyre guilty of, friend.

They said it OUT AND CLEAR that the attach rates were for STANDALONE players ONLY. They did not intentional missed out the 'standalone player' part to make it as the attach rate were for all. BDA tried to pass a revenue figure as a percentage of market share by leaving out the 'revenue' term. This has passed any marketing communication ethics !!

So you are saying the BDA is full of Baloney? Well I can't disagre with that. Guess they thought the audience were schmucks to believe it right?

But you still haven't told me about HD DVD's crime. Only how the BDA thinks we are all morons and take their words at face value:

"We won"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months"

"There is no planned price cut on the PS3."

And you wonder why the HD DVD fans get so riled up when this happens?

BDA is full of crap...so is HD DVD, i already told you. The attach rate and player sales horn tooting is a joke.....HD DVD claiming price advantage when all the combo discs cost more than BD discs is a joke. All im saying is you take these things way to seriously and you seem to have an unhealthy love fascination for all things HD DVD.....i can do no more....i figured my olpening up and pointing out the idiocy of my format of choice (BD) would instill SOME neutral ground or movement for us to openly discuss as consumers that these folks get paid to trick us...but you are so hell bent on making subtle digs at the BDA and want to believe Jesus Christ himself sits on the HD DVD board, to have a light hearted discussion that these corporations are equally at fault which they are and that thread sliek this where we gang up on one company are pointless because all companies do it and its not owrth our time as consumers or forum posters.

Now, im leaving work in 10 minutes to go drink a lot of beer and increase my rank in warhawk with my buddies (112 in world in team DM suckaaas!!!!) Hopefully in the future you and all other can lighten up a bit and have a good time while we discuss things as equals and not enemies, take care man, have a nice night.

And thats failed marketing by sony.....so wait a creepy baby with the black plague crawling through a room is supposed to tell me my PS3 is an all in one media hub......brilliant.

:D :D

They said it OUT AND CLEAR that the attach rates were for STANDALONE players ONLY. They did not intentional missed out the 'standalone player' part to make it as the attach rate were for all. BDA tried to pass a revenue figure as a percentage of market share by leaving out the 'revenue' term. This has passed any marketing communication ethics !!

exactly, thats whats misleading about it.....one instance theyre talking about one subset of qualities or qualifiers the next its different, its not that they outright LIED, its deceiving, i believe thats all i said.....BDA didnt lie here, these numbers are accurate....marketing and spinningisnt about lieing, its about word choice and truthfull number application in context.....deception, not lieing.

EDIT: they may have mentioned REVENUE late rin te release or previously..where if applied with correct grammar would have meant the aforementioned or future mention of marketshare meant to revenue.....im just saying, its all bad, they all are the same, no one is looking out for us, night man.

BDA is full of crap...so is HD DVD, i already told you. The attach rate and player sales horn tooting is a joke.....HD DVD claiming price advantage when all the combo discs cost more than BD discs is a joke. All im saying is you take these things way to seriously and you seem to have an unhealthy love fascination for all things HD DVD.....i can do no more....i figured my olpening up and pointing out the idiocy of my format of choice (BD) would instill SOME neutral ground or movement for us to openly discuss as consumers that these folks get paid to trick us...but you are so hell bent on making subtle digs at the BDA and want to believe Jesus Christ himself sits on the HD DVD board, to have a light hearted discussion that these corporations are equally at fault which they are and that thread sliek this where we gang up on one company are pointless because all companies do it and its not owrth our time as consumers or forum posters.

Now, im leaving work in 10 minutes to go drink a lot of beer and increase my rank in warhawk with my buddies (112 in world in team DM suckaaas!!!!) Hopefully in the future you and all other can lighten up a bit and have a good time while we discuss things as equals and not enemies, take care man, have a nice night.

Good rant. But you STILL haven't told me what HD DVD's crime is? Should i help you out? The fact that they compare SAL to SAL numbers. Apples to apples - how's that.

Oh and if you go check your stats you will see that BD has almost 2X as many movies priced in the $35 to $40 range as HD DVD does. At least with a Combo we can play it on all 125+ million DVD players AND the 2 million BD players.

All you guys get is a high priced BD only movie. Some deal that it!

http://blu-raystats.com/

http://hddvdstats.com/

I agree 100%, but im not as rabid as you folks and not willing to admit that both camps are deceiving...HD DVD does the same with the attach rates and sales of players in regard to the PS3......all marketing is shady, its not th eBDA, thats teh difference between the fans and fanboys.....fans can step back and call it as it is, and thats BS from both sides, fanboys have their heads in the sand when its convenient.....like in regards to this marketing with HD DVD and BD.

What is this "you folks" crap? Believe me, I could not care less what these two camps do when they are marketing. I don't even care if Blu-ray survives. I want to continue to have my HD DVD and the rest matters not to me.

But, the problem I have ont he BDA side is that when it comes to the PS3, there is no consistency whatsoever. It's either a standalone or it isn't. It either gets counted in all things, or none.


the PS3 is the same price MSRP as the BDPs300, so that is not a valid argument at this point anymore.

Not quite my friend.

Who makes the PS3?

And who makes the BDPs300?

I did say from OTHER manufacturers. Not from itself.


The only other thing about that situation was we had 3-5 discs being pressed to make the same as on 2 discs....but ill reiterate that i agree with the fallacy and application that both sides have their head sin the sand when its convenient for them, no doubt about it.

Huh? This I missed.

Laughable. Talkstr8t loses all credibility in my book when he then suggests "At least no information was left out here". BDA insider should be changed to BS insider.

He never had any credibility in my book.

hey people. this should put a stop to the confusion caused by BDA's intentional left out of the 'revenue' bit. After the HD DVD's press conference that clearly contradict the figure, a BD insider Talkstr8t had no choice but to come clean and declare that the 63% was total revenue spent on standalone high-def players.

The original press quote by gizmodo:



Confused AVS member wanting an answer from Insiders:

question =

Answer =

quoted from the insiders' thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=899842&page=6

If this is true, that's a new low in despicable, deceptive claims by either of the format warriors. It even tops the whole "rising market share" $hit that HD DVD pulled a month or two back. Just when you think it can't get any worse...

Bastidges.

LOL

So I guess the PS3 is ahead of the Wii in the US then huh? Wow, how sad.

Nice! I almost fell out of my chair. And by that measure the Xbox sales in Japan do not look nearly as bad :)

All Sony needs to do now is come out with a gold plated PS3 that costs $1M and sell a few dozen of them. I can just see the Sony press release now... "PS3 leads all consoles in 'Market Share'".

Good rant. But you STILL haven't told me what HD DVD's crime is? Should i help you out? The fact that they compare SAL to SAL numbers. Apples to apples - how's that.

Oh and if you go check your stats you will see that BD has almost 2X as many movies priced in the $35 to $40 range as HD DVD does. At least with a Combo we can play it on all 125+ million DVD players AND the 2 million BD players.

All you guys get is a high priced BD only movie. Some deal that it!

http://blu-raystats.com/

http://hddvdstats.com/

How dare you use facts backed up with sources. That is not the kind of thing the blu-boys like ;)

Good rant. But you STILL haven't told me what HD DVD's crime is? Should i help you out? The fact that they compare SAL to SAL numbers. Apples to apples - how's that.

Oh and if you go check your stats you will see that BD has almost 2X as many movies priced in the $35 to $40 range as HD DVD does. At least with a Combo we can play it on all 125+ million DVD players AND the 2 million BD players.

All you guys get is a high priced BD only movie. Some deal that it!

http://blu-raystats.com/

http://hddvdstats.com/

I wonder how many more catalog titles HD DVD has versus Blu-Ray? Just a hunch but that may have something to do with it :)

It's not really all that surprising they would use how much money consumers spent. Companies use that figure all the time to show how much of the consumer spending they are getting. It's kind of like this article

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=media&storyID=nN13363865

They want to show that more consumer dollars are being spent on their products then the competition.

It might a bit early in the life of HD players to be using this method but really it's not all that unusual.

But when looking at market share, if they're talking about revenue, it's clearly distinguished vs. # of units sold.

Like the article says:

Stan Glasgow, president and chief operating officer of Sony's $11 billion electronics arm, said the company's electronics sales grew 7 percent in the fiscal year that ended in March. The Japanese company holds an 18 percent share of consumer electronics sales in the U.S., he added.

Note they do not claim that that they sold more goods as in # of players, receivers, TVs, etc. They're clearly talking about $11 billion not 11 billion tvs, dvd players, stereos, receivers, etc. shipped.

Say sony sells 100k bluray players at $500 a piece. Toshiba sells 150k players at $300 a piece. Toshiba has 60% of the installed base but Sony has 53% of the $ sales in this market.

Laughable. Talkstr8t loses all credibility in my book when he then suggests "At least no information was left out here". BDA insider should be changed to BS insider.

I agree. For a handle called "Talkstr8t", he doesn't do a lot of straight talking :cool:

Nothing was left out, he says?

Right. Nothing but the relevant metric. :rolleyes:

Wow you guys are hypocrites. For the last month there has been a growing movement by HD DVD fanboys to demand that software sales be reported by revenue rather than units (to "counteract" BD sales, and "because companies care more about revenue"), but now that someone does the exact same thing with standalones, it's the "best example yet of the BDA trying to mislead people".

I get it, it's misleading when the numbers favor Blu-ray :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, they should have reported both revenue and units sold, but then HD DVD promo shouldn't pretend like you can't count PS3's (or at least a percent of them) and they shouldn't quote attachment rates that are months and months old (like at last CES).

I know. This is probably the biggest example of the BDA trying to clearly misslead people about Blu-Ray I have evern seen. It shows 2 things.

1.) the BDA uses poor marketing tactics which need to rely on bending the trueth or missleading people. Do they not have enough TRUE good news about their format that they have to result to this? Do they think this makes them look good?

2.) The BDA thinks we are studid. I actually feel insulted.

Its like fuel companies saying....people are buying way more fuel now then they did a few years ago Why? Just look at how much more money we are making.


FU BDA........FU.

:rolleyes:

the PS3 is the same price MSRP as the BDPs300, so that is not a valid argument at this point anymore.

That does not mean that it was not a valid statement for the last 10 months. It should also be remembered that the BDPs300 will be lucky if it is BD Profile 1.1 compliant much less 2.0 Most insiders say the PS3 will be capable of 2.0.

So you have a choice when it comes to your Blu-ray Player rip-off; you can get a PS3 that will be difficult to integrate into your home theater thanks to the fact that it lacks an IR port. Or you can go with the BDPs300, which will integrate with your Universal Remote, but may not play all of the features on Profile 1.1 compliant disks and most assuredly won't be capable of playing profile 2.0 compliant BDs.

In the words of Sergeant Nicholas Angel "NO THANKS"

Most consumers would do better to save a Benjamin or two and get an A20 or A30 to enjoy films with a fully developed and robust spec. Then get a dual format player later on when the prices come down and all the BD specs are final and stable.

Most of those 134,200 BDs that 300 sold will be replaced in the future. When the BD spec is final (perhaps in 2008?) and Blu-ray can deliver on what HD DVD has been capable of since April 2006, Warner will pull the current BD of 300 and reissue the film with interactive content. So if you really like 300 or if you really like the art of film making; you are going to want to get the new BD version of 300. You know the one that has Film editing, IME, PiP, a basic strategy game and whatnot. You know one that has the same features that the 300 HD DVD has today.

Buying HD DVD today may result in an eventual hardware or software "double dip", but buying a stand alone Blu-ray player today virtually guarantees that you will double dip on both hardware and software in the future. The only possible exception to this rule would be a person that a) owns a PS3 and b) only cares about the feature. Thus the PS3 continues to undercut SA Blu-ray Player sales because it has persistent storage, a network connection and (theoretically) the processing power to run PiP; that makes it the only BD Player on the market today that might still be "state of the art" in a year or so.

The funny thing is that when I questioned him about it, he answered what he wanted to answer and clearly ignored the question I posed about the Matrix vs Pirates numbers BD was touting so much back on their release week.

Here is the full exerpt.

By total revenue you mean X amount of dollars from POS sales vs actual units shipped?

In other words, you are saying that out of the total $$$ pie, 63 revenue went towards BDA, and 37 went to Toshiba? So Toshiba with it's lower priced players still could have the number of players shipped advantage.

"Am I interpreting this correctly??? If so when did $$$ become the new guage? The last time I remember BD and HD DVD went head to head on the Pirates/Matrix release dates, BD tried to spin a big win by shipping more units of both Pirates movies vs Matrix, where in fact the actual $$$ figures were very much close to equal due the higher retail price of the Matrix set which BD ignored in their Hoopla announcements of Pirates beating the Matrix.

Is BD in the business of choosing their own guage of showing we have this percentage of the market by choosing the numbers that makes them look better at that given time???"

BDA has no credibility at all anymore by choosing whatever matrix suits them better at any given time to show market penetration.

Wow you guys are hypocrites. For the last month there has been a growing movement by HD DVD fanboys to demand that software sales be reported by revenue rather than units (to "counteract" BD sales, and "because companies care more about revenue"), but now that someone does the exact same thing with standalones, it's the "best example yet of the BDA trying to mislead people".

I get it, it's misleading when the numbers favor Blu-ray :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, they should have reported both revenue and units sold, but then HD DVD promo shouldn't pretend like you can't count PS3's (or at least a percent of them) and they shouldn't quote attachment rates that are months and months old (like at last CES).

Eh? Who was asking for that? You dreamin'?

From day one we are asking to show numbers in real life. TRUTFULLY.

Standalone units vs Standalone units, BD25s vs HD30s, number of studios vs number of studios, real number of HD titles vs real number of HD titles

I'm not sure who was asking to show revenue as market share? You must be confused.

The ONLY thing we are all saying is that it is VERY probable that even with the software sales ratio at 2:1, studios are making equal amount of money on BD and HD titles (as it is very probable that BD costs more in production). Nothing else. This is not about market share statement, that is simply the most blatent lie that came out of BDA, but the real value numbers for the studios.

But you know what, this war will be decided by facts, not by PR talk. At the end of the day, if they can't produce and are outnumbered and are more expensive BD will not be adopted by manufacturers as everyone in this whole wide world, when in business, cares only about 1 thing. Money.

The funny thing is that when I questioned him about it, he answered what he wanted to answer and clearly ignored the question I posed about the Matrix vs Pirates numbers BD was touting so much back on their release week.

Here is the full exerpt.

By total revenue you mean X amount of dollars from POS sales vs actual units shipped?

In other words, you are saying that out of the total $$$ pie, 63 revenue went towards BDA, and 37 went to Toshiba? So Toshiba with it's lower priced players still could have the number of players shipped advantage.

"Am I interpreting this correctly??? If so when did $$$ become the new guage? The last time I remember BD and HD DVD went head to head on the Pirates/Matrix release dates, BD tried to spin a big win by shipping more units of both Pirates movies vs Matrix, where in fact the actual $$$ figures were very much close to equal due the higher retail price of the Matrix set which BD ignored in their Hoopla announcements of Pirates beating the Matrix.

Is BD in the business of choosing their own guage of showing we have this percentage of the market by choosing the numbers that makes them look better at that given time???"

BDA has no credibility at all anymore by choosing whatever matrix suits them better at any given time to show market penetration.

But listen, you can't really expect anything else from a desperate BDA. You know, reality is much stronger then sticking your fingers in ears and screaming "la la la la". They can spin all they want, but the reality is what counts at the end of the day.

There are Blu-ray fanboys that not only created a list of HD DVD supporters to "watch out for", but vote on who makes the list.

Yet WE are the ones called "Zealots". No, we in the Blu World call it re-education camps, set up by Micro$oft, to brainwash the HD DVD tunnelvision crowd. They brainwash and you guys take it all in and do their dirty work. They want to kill the HDM media, in favour of HD Downloads. You guys are the pawns that are going to make it happen. If there is a list, and there isn't, we just need to show them the errors in their ways and show them that we know when they are spreading FUD and will correct FUD, when and where it happens.

No, we in the Blu World call it re-education camps, set up by Micro$oft, to brainwash the HD DVD tunnelvision crowd. They brainwash and you guys take it all in and do their dirty work. They want to kill the HDM media, in favour of HD Downloads. You guys are the pawns that are going to make it happen. If there is a list, and there isn't, we just need to show them the errors in their ways and show them that we know when they are spreading FUD and will correct FUD, when and where it happens.


BTW, there is a list, do you need the links? Maybe not!! your on the blu-ray.com forums. Funny how you missed the zillion page thread on this LOL

You sound a lot like one of those South American dictators!!. Brainwash this, Brainwash that! LOL

I agree. For a handle called "Talkstr8t", he doesn't do a lot of straight talking :cool:

Oh, you are misreading his handle, if he was straight talking, his handle would be Talkstr8, his handle Talkstr8t (emphasis mine) is actually pronounced Talk-straighty, where being straighty is to being straight what being truthy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness is to being truthful.

Btw talk, if you are reading, still waiting for an answer to this statement you made way back at CES - what did you mean by current hardware? Genuinely curious.


Hmm, Hitachi showing 200GB BD-ROM discs playing back on current hardware seems somewhat significant to me.

BTW, there is a list, do you need the links? Maybe not!! your on the blu-ray.com forums. Funny how you missed the zillion page thread on this LOL

You sound a lot like one of those South American dictators!!. Brainwash this, Brainwash that! LOL
Yeah, that's the point that I'm trying to make about Microsoft. On posting at Blu-ray.com, I do, but ignore anyone who talks about lists. I don't need their advice and can speak for myself. You can find me at the High Def forums, as well. I'm an equal opportunity debater. I hate misinformation, whichever side uses it. I chose Blu because I want HDM to become a viable alternative to SD DVD. I don't want to see Microsoft get their way and force people in to paying for HD downloads, with no hard copy for future viewing. If it were Sony doing this, you can be that I would be in Microsoft's corner, but Microsoft has a bad track record, in manipulating situations to their advantage. Hence the war over internet browsers, with Netscape and the use of search engines, with Google. They have been slapped with fines for anticompetitive practices a number of times. I don't want these snakes anywhere near my movie collection.

Yeah, that's the point that I'm trying to make about Microsoft. On posting at Blu-ray.com, I do, but ignore anyone who talks about lists. I don't need their advice and can speak for myself. You can find me at the High Def forums, as well. I'm an equal opportunity debater. I hate misinformation, whichever side uses it. I chose Blu because I want HDM to become a viable alternative to SD DVD. I don't want to see Microsoft get their way and force people in to paying for HD downloads, with no hard copy for future viewing. If it were Sony doing this, you can be that I would be in Microsoft's corner, but Microsoft has a bad track record, in manipulating situations to their advantage. Hence the war over internet browsers, with Netscape and the use of search engines, with Google. They have been slapped with fines for anticompetitive practices a number of times. I don't want these snakes anywhere near my movie collection.

Fair enough!

But can you at least acknowledge people feel the same about Sony? I know I do.

Fair enough!

But can you at least acknowledge people feel the same about Sony? I know I do.
But why do they feel like that about Sony? Sony has had their moments of arrogance, in the past, but they stand for making movies and music available in hard copy, not a download fee. Microsoft is currently trying to corner the market by controlling the internet via their proxy Yahoo, in search engines. They are currently trying to buy out research in motion, the owners of the Blackberry patent, with their network. Add the killing of HD media, they will eventually have all of the tools to control what you watch and how much you will pay for the right to watch it. Sony currently owns their BD hardware manufacturing plants and their studio. Doesn't it seem strange that no other hardware manufacturers will set foot in the HD DVD ring and fight along side of Toshiba and Microsoft? They see what will happen, if MS wins and kill off the HDM hardcopies. No more hardware manuafacturing and no control over their own content and what they can charge. Some people on the HD DVD side need to wake up and see what they're doing to damage their own format. HD DVD probably cannot win this format war, but they will cripple both formats, ushering in pay as you go HD movie downloads, through the Microsoft/Yahoo network.

But why do they feel like that about Sony? Sony has had their moments of arrogance, in the past, but they stand for making movies and music available in hard copy, not a download fee. Microsoft is currently trying to corner the market by controlling the internet via their proxy Yahoo, in search engines. They are currently trying to buy out research in motion, the owners of the Blackberry patent, with their network. Add the killing of HD media, they will eventually have all of the tools to control what you watch and how much you will pay for the right to watch it. Sony currently owns their BD hardware manufacturing plants and their studio. Doesn't it seem strange that no other hardware manufacturers will set foot in the HD DVD ring and fight along side of Toshiba and Microsoft? They see what will happen, if MS wins and kill off the HDM hardcopies. No more hardware manuafacturing and no control over their own content and what they can charge. Some people on the HD DVD side need to wake up and see what they're doing to damage their own format. HD DVD probably cannot win this format war, but they will cripple both formats, ushering in pay as you go HD movie downloads, through the Microsoft/Yahoo network.

My reasons are many, and corporate arrogance is only one of the things on the list. MS is no angel. But this thread is about someting else, and I dont want to take it off topic.

You wasted your first post on that?

Not a constructive debate, no disputing figures, just a one liner for your first post?

Shock us at least bluray.com boy!I don't think he is from Blu-ray.com. A bit off topic, yes, but some clarity is needed when many around you are trying to cloud the real issues at why we need to compare numbers and speculate what it all means. What it all means, regardless of the numbers, is what will happen to both formats, if left unchecked and allowed to play out. People need to be know what they really are supporting. It really is a phoney war and were all going to pay the concequences. Numbers or no numbers! Corporate arrogance or hate has no basis to where we are all headed.

I don't think he is from Blu-ray.com. A bit off topic, yes, but some clarity is needed when many around you are trying to cloud the real issues at why we need to compare numbers and speculate what it all means. What it all means, regardless of the numbers, is what will happen to both formats, if left unchecked and allowed to play out. People need to be know what they really are supporting. It really is a phoney war and were all going to pay the concequences. Numbers or no numbers! Corporate arrogance or hate has no basis to where we are all headed.


Clarity is always needed on BOTH sides.

The truth is also DIFFERENT for various people. I dont doubt your loyalty to BD. But there is loyalty, and there is BLIND loyalty. Between Sony and MS, you picked Sony. All you did was pick one devil over the other.

Your not comfortable with MS in control of the things you mention.

Myself, I am not comfortable with Sony making the disk,making the movie, and distributing it amongst other things.

You wont change my mind, I wont change yours. May the best format win.

But that trumps the whole scenerio, one camp is claiming its leading BOTH.....we arent discussing "installed base" its HD DVD players and BD players.....HD DVD says more players and more attach rate....install base isnt in question...you cant have moreplayers and a better attach rate and be outsold...you can have less players and better attach rate (as HD DVD does) and you can have more players with a lower attach rate (BD does) but you cannot have both and have lower total software.
Dude............

HD DVD is not saying that it has more possible hardware sockets here, it is saying that there are more dedicated hardware sockets.......

There is a little manner of millions of PS3's that have that low low attach rate, but by shear mass of units out there, dominate the sales volumes of software sold by either sides dedicated standalone players.

The PS3 is the unaccounted for item in your calculation, responsible for most Blu-ray sales, if you eliminated its impact, then the more HD DVD standalones sold would have been generating more software sales than the lessor amount of Blu-ray standalones sold.

There have been more Blu-ray hardware sockets sold if you include the PS3.

That simple undisputed fact, does not make a statement that there also may be more HD DVD dedicated players sold than Blu-ray players, other than the PS3 untrue, nor the statement that dedicated players of both types have a significantly higher attach rate than the PS3.

this is just as stupid as HD DVD counting the PS3 for attach rate and not for player sales. It never did make sense to me that HD DVD could have a higher attach rate and higher sales for hardware but be outsold 2:1 in software, haha.

Thats what these folks all get paid for, they both deceive, and they both are good at it. What you are not getting is that HD DVD comments about attach rates and hardware sales are not supposed to be backward looking or trying to explain the current of past software sales rations.

Those have obviously been dominated by the PS3.

What those metrics do is indicate the potential growth of future software sales based upon any given increase in hardware sales.

It saying that you need to sell a lot less HD DVD players in the future to make up the difference.

It not looking at sales history, silly rabbit, its looking at the potential of future sales.

Apparently the decision makers at Viacom, Paramount and Dreamworks as well as a Universal can grasp he concept.

Standalone players can have a higher attach rate than the PS3 and still be outsold by the PS3 in software sales if there are far more PS3's in the wild.

By the PS3's dominance will lesson as more dedicated hardware units are sold with those higher attach rate, on both sides, so the PS3's dominance in HD< sales may prove to be a temporary situation unique to 2007.

Paramount executives in effect stated that they thought that the PS3 was under performing from Sony promises and that support of a format relying on it may be an unsustainable in the long term.

Wow you guys are hypocrites. For the last month there has been a growing movement by HD DVD fanboys to demand that software sales be reported by revenue rather than units (to "counteract" BD sales, and "because companies care more about revenue"), but now that someone does the exact same thing with standalones, it's the "best example yet of the BDA trying to mislead people".

I get it, it's misleading when the numbers favor Blu-ray :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, they should have reported both revenue and units sold, but then HD DVD promo shouldn't pretend like you can't count PS3's (or at least a percent of them) and they shouldn't quote attachment rates that are months and months old (like at last CES). No hypocrisy involved.

A statement by any HD DVD supporter that one might consider that revenues might be a factor in the analysis of sales success of an item, is not the same as inferring at a major press event that revenues not units sold were the metric used for a market share statement.

One is a suggestion to consider another factor in the discussion. Another is a attempt to deceive by taking advantage of the assumptions made in the use of common industry terms.

In fairness, though, we really did not see any quotes or press releases or any other major claim made by the BDA of this point. The issue AFAIK came from a report of an observer from the BDA IFA press conference who got that impression of what was said.

But hardware revenues mean less than software revenues because of the marginal profits embedded in each unit sold. There is more marginal profit in a piece of software than a hardware unit relative to its retail price.

Revenues for hardware only can encourage more CE manufacturers to offer product, that can only benefit consumers by more choices, more performance or cheaper prices. A consumer benefits only once when he buys a hardware player.

Revenues for software can encourage more content providers to offer more titles. The consumer can benefit many times whenever he buys multiple movies.

Wow you guys are hypocrites. For the last month there has been a growing movement by HD DVD fanboys to demand that software sales be reported by revenue rather than units (to "counteract" BD sales, and "because companies care more about revenue"), but now that someone does the exact same thing with standalones, it's the "best example yet of the BDA trying to mislead people".

There is nothing hypocritical. It's always about CONTEXT.

You are most likely referring to the discussions about the Matrix and POTC movies, a key head-to-head battle between the two formats. The Blu-ray talking point was about how the uniits sold favored POTC. The HD DVD response was that The Matrix was much more expensive because it represented THREE movies and that therefore the meaningful metric from the point of view of studios would be revenue or at least some way to normalize the sales figures to account for the fact that The Matrix had threee movies in each unit sale. There was the context to that argument.

The sales of stand-alone players is a different context for two reasons. First, because it is totally skews the implied future sales of software to favor Blu-ray. And second, beacuse it implies that people are less interested in buying HD DVD players compared to Blu-ray players by cleverly using the more inexpensiveness of the HD DVD players to underpin the revenue-based metric to naturally favor Blu-ray.

The examples are utterly different in context. Now you can make the point that the stand-alone figures don't even mean anything since you HAVE to account for the PS3 in them in some way or another. But that would be a different argument and has it's own slippery slope.

The point is that using revenue in the cae of The Matrix/POTC was an attempt to normalize the discrepancy in units sold to account for the higher-priced Maitrx having 3 discs, while the revenue metric for the stand-alone sales was an attempt to deceive the public.

This thread is comedy gold. The only people that care about what numbers say what are the people on this forum.

Corporations look at more important numbers like costs, profit margins, and the like.

In other words: It's all marketing. It has nothing to do with the decisions that are being made behind the scenes, and arguing about which numbers means what is a monumental waste of time. Even the Nielsen numbers are only marginally useful.

Seriously people, put down the pom-poms for a moment and just enjoy your movies. :)

No, we in the Blu World call it re-education camps, set up by Micro$oft, to brainwash the HD DVD tunnelvision crowd. They brainwash and you guys take it all in and do their dirty work. They want to kill the HDM media, in favour of HD Downloads.
If Microsoft wanted to kill HD DVD, why would they release the 360 HD DVD add-on which effectively doubled the number of HD DVD players in people's homes?

You do know that Sony has said they are planning a movie download service right? Will you now say Sony is wrong or will you continue to praise Sony and bash Microsoft?

Pot Kettle Black Kettle? Time to watch you back pedal!

Bickering posts removed, infractions handed out.

No, we in the Blu World call it re-education camps, set up by Micro$oft, to brainwash the HD DVD tunnelvision crowd. They brainwash and you guys take it all in and do their dirty work. They want to kill the HDM media, in favour of HD Downloads. You guys are the pawns that are going to make it happen. If there is a list, and there isn't, we just need to show them the errors in their ways and show them that we know when they are spreading FUD and will correct FUD, when and where it happens.

There is something extremely wrong with you.

I always "filter" anything said by ********* these days. I personally feel he works in PR.

Each day seems to bring some new statement that has been shown to be a little misleading.

I know. This is probably the biggest example of the BDA trying to clearly misslead people about Blu-Ray I have evern seen.


Probably because it rarely happens.

Probably because it rarely happens.

LMAO!

"We won the format war!"

"Target Goes BD Exclusive!"

"We won the format war!"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months!"

We won the format war!"

:D:D

There is nothing hypocritical. It's always about CONTEXT.

You are most likely referring to the discussions about the Matrix and POTC movies, a key head-to-head battle between the two formats. The Blu-ray talking point was about how the uniits sold favored POTC. The HD DVD response was that The Matrix was much more expensive because it represented THREE movies and that therefore the meaningful metric from the point of view of studios would be revenue or at least some way to normalize the sales figures to account for the fact that The Matrix had threee movies in each unit sale. There was the context to that argument.

The sales of stand-alone players is a different context for two reasons. First, because it is totally skews the implied future sales of software to favor Blu-ray. And second, beacuse it implies that people are less interested in buying HD DVD players compared to Blu-ray players by cleverly using the more inexpensiveness of the HD DVD players to underpin the revenue-based metric to naturally favor Blu-ray.

The examples are utterly different in context. Now you can make the point that the stand-alone figures don't even mean anything since you HAVE to account for the PS3 in them in some way or another. But that would be a different argument and has it's own slippery slope.

The point is that using revenue in the cae of The Matrix/POTC was an attempt to normalize the discrepancy in units sold to account for the higher-priced Maitrx having 3 discs, while the revenue metric for the stand-alone sales was an attempt to deceive the public.
The issue was also relevant in the context of the sales of movie 300 between the two formats.

The HD DVD combo version of the movie has an MSRP of $5 more than the Blu-ray version and during the first few week of release the B&M price was often $7 or $8 dollars more. The HD DVD/Combo version had at least $4 - $6 dollars more in marginal revenues sold per copy sold.

Those extra dollars meant that the revenue disparity, or the profit disparity between the HD DVD combo and Blu-ray version was less than the unit volume percentage ratio disparity.

Those extra profit dollars would be a factor in future studio or retailer plans to release and stock future releases. :)

LMAO!

"We won the format war!"

"Target Goes BD Exclusive!"

"We won the format war!"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months!"

We won the format war!"

:D:D

You forgot "We won the format war!"

This thread is comedy gold. The only people that care about what numbers say what are the people on this forum.

Corporations look at more important numbers like costs, profit margins, and the like.

In other words: It's all marketing. It has nothing to do with the decisions that are being made behind the scenes, and arguing about which numbers means what is a monumental waste of time. Even the Nielsen numbers are only marginally useful.

Seriously people, put down the pom-poms for a moment and just enjoy your movies. :) Corporations look at more important numbers like costs, profit margins, and the like. That's why you have companies like Universal ignoring the sales ratio propaganda and staying HD DVD exclusive and you have a decision like Paramount/Dreamworks happening which is based on their own analysis not Blu-ray BDA spin. :D

Paramount said those metrics all favor HD DVD.

I disagree a bit though that the BDA spiel from Andy Parsons is marketing, at least in the consumer sense. His comments are meant for industry and press consumption in a PR sense, not the general consumer directly. The BDA hopes his comments trickle down into mainstream press articles, but the BDA spin has been directly at CE companies, other studios, and more importantly retailers more than general consumer marketing.

Wow you guys are hypocrites. For the last month there has been a growing movement by HD DVD fanboys to demand that software sales be reported by revenue rather than units (to "counteract" BD sales, and "because companies care more about revenue"), but now that someone does the exact same thing with standalones, it's the "best example yet of the BDA trying to mislead people".

I get it, it's misleading when the numbers favor Blu-ray :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, they should have reported both revenue and units sold, but then HD DVD promo shouldn't pretend like you can't count PS3's (or at least a percent of them) and they shouldn't quote attachment rates that are months and months old (like at last CES).
Though I won't defend the hypocrisy, I will say that the issue that I have with the report is that they don't say anything about revenue. The implication for most would be units.

I think what Sony did is pretty simple to classify regardless of whether you are a BD or HD-DVD fan.

Spin is when you focus on the facts that help your case and ignore the ones that don't. In other words you give an incomplete account of the situation. This happens all the time by almost everyone. This is what "marketing" is all about and should be expected from BDA and HD-DVD as part of doing business.

Lying is when you materially change a fact to make it appear to be a different fact. By Sony changing "revenue share" to "market share" in that 63% figure for stand-alone players they crossed over from spin to lie.

I don't know if that was an honest mistake or true deception, but it is a lie nonetheless based on what they said. And, they should correct the record, if it was an honest mistake. If they don't then it looks like an intentional deception. And any company that engages in deception as a way of doing business, people ought to seriously consider not doing business with them until they change their ways.

What is surprising about how Talkstr8t characterizes the situation is that it is better to be complete than factually correct. In other words, spinning is worse than lying. Huh? That is an interesting way to look at this situation and I think Talkstr8t could really use an ethics course if he truley sees it that way. If he is blinded to the offense because of his advocacy that is easier to understand but he should stand back and look at this more objectively before he becomes an enabler of deception. To his credit when called on this he answered truthfully.

LMAO!

"We won the format war!"

"Target Goes BD Exclusive!"

"We won the format war!"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months!"

We won the format war!"

:D:D


Now Lee, what Doby meant to say was "It rarely happened TODAY". It is Sunday, a slow news day after all.

Probably because it rarely happens.

Wow. I can't believe you would actually think and much less believe that.

Now Lee, what Doby meant to say was "It rarely happened TODAY". It is Sunday, a slow news day after all.

You are right! How foolish of me. And tomorrow is a holiday so I guess we have to wait till Tuesday, the 4th for the next BD nonsensical statement.

But wait! Wednesday is Day One for CEDIA. Fellow HD DVD fans . . . MAKE SURE if you go to CEDIA you pack your hip-waders . . . you are going to need them!

Europe is only 20% of the HD market. The USA is about 60% - 3X bigger. Does that mean 3X more BD FUD?

But wait! Wednesday is Day One for CEDIA. Fellow HD DVD fans . . . MAKE SURE if you go to CEDIA you pack your hip-waders . . . you are going to need them! I personally am looking forward to the next issue of "Blu-ray Today!" :rolleyes:

....with the latest quotes from Understanding & Solutions's Jim Bottoms and Andy Parsons that were probably written and printed before the Paramount/Dreamworks P-Day announcement. :D

Or they may already be in a landfill somewhere......

Spin is when you focus on the facts that help your case and ignore the ones that don't. In other words you give an incomplete account of the situation. This happens all the time by almost everyone. This is what "marketing" is all about and should be expected from BDA and HD-DVD as part of doing business.

Lying is when you materially change a fact to make it appear to be a different fact. By Sony changing "revenue share" to "market share" in that 63% figure for stand-alone players they crossed over from spin to lie.

Very smart. Good thinking.

This is what "marketing" is all about What PR is all about.

Marketing is much more than that and includes the presentation to the general public.

Press Relations deals with trying to influence the trade and the press and to a degree the trend setting well informed early adopters.

Lee

you know my posting history.

that said the crime of the hd dvd group is saying that bd has a bad attach rate because of all the ps3's out there

but then not counting all the PS3's in the hardware numbers.

Lee

you know my posting history.

that said the crime of the hd dvd group is saying that bd has a bad attach rate because of all the ps3's out there

but then not counting all the PS3's in the hardware numbers.

Guilty as charged! Throw the book at them! 10 days being forced to watch trailers for BD movies only! That will teach em!

It might a bit early in the life of HD players to be using this method but really it's not all that unusual..

Lee

you know my posting history.

that said the crime of the hd dvd group is saying that bd has a bad attach rate because of all the ps3's out there

but then not counting all the PS3's in the hardware numbers.

Show it to me because I've never seen anything official from the HD DVD promo group about hardware numbers that didn't stress STAND ALONE sales. Take these comments from Ken Graffeo:

"...Graffeo talked up HD DVD’s prowess in software title attach rates. The HD DVD Promotion Group estimates that HD DVD titles have sold roughly 1.2 million units to date, versus the 1.5 million units sold so far of Blu-ray titles. Consequently, there have been 4.1 HD DVD copies sold per player, assuming there are 150,000 HD DVD stand-alones plus 143,000 Xbox 360 drives in homes. Comparably, BD’s current U.S. attach rate equals 1.1, when considering a player base of 1.2 million PS3s and 100,000 stand-alones sold."

Linkage (http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6452281)

See where I made "PS3" bold there...that means they are talking about PS3s.

See where I made "stand-alones" bold a little later in the same line...that means they are talking about stand-alones.

Then there is this:

"... Overall HD DVD hardware sales were up 37% from Q1 to Q2 2007, while software sales experienced a 20% increase in growth. During the same timeframe, overall Blu-ray standalone players’ sales saw a 27% decline from Q1 to Q2, and Blu-ray software sales were down 5%. The data released by HD DVD camp is reportedly based on NPD reports, Nielsen Netratings reports and point of sale data from the studios."

Linkage (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070720154437.html)

See where I made "Overall" bold there...that means that they are talking about HD DVD hardware sales overall..my reading comprehension tells me that means stand-alones and the 360 add-on.

See where I made "Blu-ray standalone players" bold a little lower in the quote...I think that means they are talking just about "Blu-ray standalone players" in that section.

It seems pretty clear to me...I don't see any attempt to mislead and certainly nothing that could be construed as an outright lie.

EDIT: The most recent solid numbers for installed hardware base come from Analyst Carl Howe of Blackfriar’s Marketing wrote in July that;

"...just 103,000 standalone Blu-ray players have sold, apart from the 6.2 million Blu-ray equipped PS3s Sony has shipped (and stuffed the channel with). In comparison, only 310,000 HD-DVD players have sold, even including the optional HD-DVD drives sold for the Xbox 360."

Linkage (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/TechQ307/Entries/2007/8/27_Blu-ray_vs_HD-DVD_in_Next_Generation_Game_Consoles_2.html)

Those are world-wide numbers. The attach rate for the 360 Add-on, HD DVD stand-alones and probably Blu-ray stand-alones as well is in the neighborhood of 4 films a year. The attach rate of the PS3 is somewhere south of .7 films per year.

There's no distortion involved that's just what the numbers say.

If Microsoft wanted to kill HD DVD, why would they release the 360 HD DVD add-on which effectively doubled the number of HD DVD players in people's homes?

You do know that Sony has said they are planning a movie download service right? Will you now say Sony is wrong or will you continue to praise Sony and bash Microsoft?

Pot Kettle Black Kettle? Time to watch you back pedal!Read on:

http://roughlydrafted.com/RD/TechQ307/Entries/2007/8/29_Origins_of_the_Blu-ray_vs_HD-DVD_War.html

Read on:

http://roughlydrafted.com/RD/TechQ307/Entries/2007/8/29_Origins_of_the_Blu-ray_vs_HD-DVD_War.html

Yes I just quoted that article myself because they use some real installed base numbers from a reliable source. Of course all of the information regarding MS intentions about HD DVD is just speculation. We do know that almost half of the HD DVD players in the market have an MS label on them so they must not hate HD DVD that much.

I also find your signature funny:

"Latest Nail In The HD DVD Coffin Is: Underworld Evolution. 34 Nails & Counting!"

Underworld: Evolution? Is that a joke? You do know that the finest version of U:E on the planet is on HD DVD right? I have Underwolrd: Evolution on HD DVD and it has interactive menus and better PQ than the Blu-ray version.

"...Graffeo talked up HD DVD’s prowess in software title attach rates. The HD DVD Promotion Group estimates that HD DVD titles have sold roughly 1.2 million units to date, versus the 1.5 million units sold so far of Blu-ray titles. Consequently, there have been 4.1 HD DVD copies sold per player, assuming there are 150,000 HD DVD stand-alones plus 143,000 Xbox 360 drives in homes. Comparably, BD’s current U.S. attach rate equals 1.1, when considering a player base of 1.2 million PS3s and 100,000 stand-alones sold."

Look at that. Some HD DVD FUD! Ken is comparing HD DVD SID to BD YTD. The numbers just released for 6/30 have HD DVD just under 800,000 versus 1.5 million for BD.

ALL Right! Kenny can fudge the numbers with the best of them! Compare apples to oranges.

"All's fair in love and war!"

:D:D:D

"War is not about who is right . . . War is about who is left!"

Look at that. Some HD DVD FUD! Ken is comparing HD DVD SID to BD YTD. The numbers just released for 6/30 have HD DVD just under 800,000 versus 1.5 million for BD.

ALL Right! Kenny can fudge the numbers with the best of them! Compare apples to oranges.

"All's fair in love and war!"

:D:D:D

I'm not sure what you pointed out.. Can you link where it says 800k vs 1.5?

I am sure that I've seen 1.5 million HDs since inception and 2.2 million for BD since inception. So his information would be true? No?

Ah I see, you are saying that he counted 1.2 million titles since inception vs 1.5 million year-to-date (instead of 2 million since inception) for blu-ray right?

Yep, indeed. I guess he fudged them a bit. But to be honest 1.5 million vs 2 million now as it was reported (I'm sorry I don't have energy to find the url) is not really that bad to begin with (counting both from inception).

I'm not sure what you pointed out.. Can you link where it says 800k vs 1.5?

I am sure that I've seen 1.5 million HDs since inception and 2.2 million for BD since inception. So his information would be true? No?

Ah I see, you are saying that he counted 1.2 million titles since inception vs 1.5 million year-to-date (instead of 2 million since inception) for blu-ray right?

Yep, indeed. I guess he fudged them a bit. But to be honest 1.5 million vs 2 million now as it was reported (I'm sorry I don't have energy to find the url) is not really that bad to begin with (counting both from inception).

Oh man this is priceless right here.

Not only are they using the $ amount to calculate a 63% market share in sales revenue which we now all understand was not unit sales. They also may have included the total revenue from LG HD DVD/ Blu-Ray units to make it look even better (we will never know).The LG doesn't comply with HD DVD requirements, isn't compatible with many many features on many many discs, and doesn't carry a logo. Why should it count?

Take these comments from Ken Graffeo:

"...Graffeo talked up HD DVD’s prowess in software title attach rates. The HD DVD Promotion Group estimates that HD DVD titles have sold roughly 1.2 million units to date, versus the 1.5 million units sold so far of Blu-ray titles. Consequently, there have been 4.1 HD DVD copies sold per player, assuming there are 150,000 HD DVD stand-alones plus 143,000 Xbox 360 drives in homes. Comparably, BD’s current U.S. attach rate equals 1.1, when considering a player base of 1.2 million PS3s and 100,000 stand-alones sold."

There's no distortion involved that's just what the numbers say.This is exactly the dishonest accounting. You don't want to count the PS3 in units but you do for attach rate. How convenient. If so few PS3 owners use it for Blu-ray than Blu-ray must have a far higher attach rate when only counting standalone units (since they have a 2:1 sales lead on titles while having sold something along the lines of 2/3 the standalone players).

I have by no means any sort of experience in polling/surveying, but there seems to be a simple solution for the "PS3 as a Blu-ray" situation.

Why not just conduct a scientific survey trying to gauge how many PS3 users are using the system to play Blu-ray movies? Then, use that percentage (10%, 20%, 30%, whatever it is) and go on from there.

Obviously, the amount of PS3's being used for Blu-ray playback is NOT 100% and is NOT 0%. It's somewhere in between and the figure shouldn't be cast aside (used only when it benefits or hurts one side of the format war).

gotta the love the HD DVD hyprocisy here...

i guess they totally forgot the whole POTC vs Matrix arguement where all of the HD DVD zealots kept claiming the revenue from the Matrix boxsets almost equalled the revenue from the POTC movies even though the Matrix boxset only sold about 14K copies during release week...

Do the HD DVD fan boys remember this arguement or does the kool aid cause selective memory???

Quote the number (or make it up) that is higher than your competitor!

What's new about this?

Lee

you know my posting history.

that said the crime of the hd dvd group is saying that bd has a bad attach rate because of all the ps3's out there

but then not counting all the PS3's in the hardware numbers.

This is exactly the dishonest accounting. You don't want to count the PS3 in units but you do for attach rate. How convenient. If so few PS3 owners use it for Blu-ray than Blu-ray must have a far higher attach rate when only counting standalone units (since they have a 2:1 sales lead on titles while having sold something along the lines of 2/3 the standalone players).

Dishonest accounting? more like an accurate representation of reality to me.

please enlighten us on how to derive the attach rates for BD standalone players only? for HD DVD standalone players too for that matter? using survey of 1000 respondents ?

To get the attach rate - you take into consideration the number of players sold and the movie disk sold. How do you track wether the movie disks were purchased by BD standalone player owners or PS3 owners ?

I for one bought the PS3 not as a game machine but as a Blu-ray player and a media server thru DLNA. I only have one PS3 games but my Blu-ray movie collection is growing nicely.

I for one bought the PS3 not as a game machine but as a Blu-ray player and a media server thru DLNA. I only have one PS3 games but my Blu-ray movie collection is growing nicely.

HD movies are the best aren't they?

space,

wow that was a nice piece of selectivity.

on the flip side you had the bd braintrust arguing that revenue didn't matter just unit sales.

fact is that both sides play fast and loose.

Read on:

http://roughlydrafted.com/RD/TechQ307/Entries/2007/8/29_Origins_of_the_Blu-ray_vs_HD-DVD_War.html

So your answer is the typical Blu-Ray spin? Nice try but this crap gets old.

What PR is all about.

Marketing is much more than that and includes the presentation to the general public.

Press Relations deals with trying to influence the trade and the press and to a degree the trend setting well informed early adopters.

There isn't really the difference that you try to imply.

So your answer is the typical Blu-Ray spin? Nice try but this crap gets old.

As opposed to the usual HD DVD spin? It's another perspective, and instead of lazily dismissing it as another spin, please try and address aspects of the link that you do not agree with.

gotta the love the HD DVD hyprocisy here...

i guess they totally forgot the whole POTC vs Matrix arguement where all of the HD DVD zealots kept claiming the revenue from the Matrix boxsets almost equalled the revenue from the POTC movies even though the Matrix boxset only sold about 14K copies during release week...

Do the HD DVD fan boys remember this arguement or does the kool aid cause selective memory???

Thanks for pointing this out.

Guilty as charged! Throw the book at them! 10 days being forced to watch trailers for BD movies only! That will teach em!

Lee, maybe it is time to hang up the keyboard for a few days. This was pointed out many times, you chose to ignore and then made it into a joke. I fail to see how posts like this do anything to improve AVS.

Laughable. Talkstr8t loses all credibility in my book when he then suggests "At least no information was left out here". BDA insider should be changed to BS insider.

Do any of the BDA insiders still have any of that left? :confused:

The BDA should spend more money improving their product, but they would rather concentrate their efforts creating FUD and spin. "They that live by the sword will die by the sword." :)

As opposed to the usual HD DVD spin? It's another perspective, and instead of lazily dismissing it as another spin, please try and address aspects of the link that you do not agree with.

I am sure that he would, but I don't think that he has 4 hours to spare today. :D

Dishonest accounting? more like an accurate representation of reality to me.

please enlighten us on how to derive the attach rates for BD standalone players only? for HD DVD standalone players too for that matter? using survey of 1000 respondents ?

To get the attach rate - you take into consideration the number of players sold and the movie disk sold. How do you track wether the movie disks were purchased by BD standalone player owners or PS3 owners ?

The point is, you pick a number a way to count the PS3 and use that number consistently. You do not change the number based on what you are counting.

Does anyone here seriously think that HD DVD companies do not spin or lie. These are companies with billions at stake. Didn't MS get busted for antitrust issues a while back?

I don't think that using $$ to represent market share is dishonest since most industries measure market share in $$ and not units. Investors really could care less about units, it's all about revenues. That is the real world. Having said that, it very well could have been dishonest in the context of this particular market and situation.

The point is, you pick a number a way to count the PS3 and use that number consistently. You do not change the number based on what you are counting.

Does anyone here seriously think that HD DVD companies do not spin or lie. These are companies with billions at stake. Didn't MS get busted for antitrust issues a while back?

I don't think that using $$ to represent market share is dishonest since most industries measure market share in $$ and not units. Investors really could care less about units, it's all about revenues. That is the real world. Having said that, it very well could have been dishonest in the context of this particular market and situation.

I think revenues is an interesting look at the standalone situation, though not necessarily the most useful representation. It would appear that more money has been spent on bd standalones than hd dvd standalones - it is just one measure of how much the BD side was prepared to spend compared with the HD DVD side.

The LG doesn't comply with HD DVD requirements, isn't compatible with many many features on many many discs, and doesn't carry a logo. Why should it count?

At their current ridiculously high price with a non-conforming HD DVD player, it doesn't. In any case, not very many people are buying them.

Do any of the BDA insiders still have any of that left? :confused:

Sounds like a poll question to me. :) To make it fair, we can weight each pro BD vote by a factor of 2 to 1 since they seem to love that ratio.

Sounds like a poll question to me. :) To make it fair, we can weight each pro BD vote by a factor of 2 to 1 since they seem to love that ratio.

Lol :D