The side that lies would have an advantage, the side which was more dishonest would have an advantage, as it would never be challenged.

And I'm not saying one side is more dishonest than the other, but the best way to ensure one side dosnt get away with dishonesty is to have its statements questioned, is it not?

Amir,

Upto to $200 true cost of bd50 seems a little ott:eek: How do you arrive at such a high figure?

Regards

John.

Unfortunately, with the new rules, we will never know!!!

This is stupid, if a insider for one camp smells BS, I say let him call the other on it. They are here to help educate and correct any FUD or what not about their respective format. If you can hang with the big boys, then run home to mommy.

It's funny, because I never called anyone any names and was civil in my conversation from the start, even though I was called many. I just don't get your point.
It wasn't you. It was MaxPower or some such name.

It's a great idea if the goal is to kill the thread and render it useless.
A disturbing turn... Sort of like a T---ban. Fill in the blanks as you like.

I'm sure the moderators thought long and hard before taking the above drastic action, and I appreciate what motivated them.

Nevertheless, with all due respect, they have made a serious mistake. As far as fairness is concerned, the industry insiders are all mature adults and they are, or at least should be, quite capable of defending their positions and debunking any incorrect information, if indeed there was incorrect information.

Prior to this misguided rule change the AV Sciences Industry Insider thread was a unique forum that promoted the maximum degree of disclosure of any forum available. That should remain the goal, not maintaining the least contenious or calmest forum. Now the forum has been rendered like all the other average forums, where the insiders will merely be "preaching to their own choirs".

As was pointed out earlier, very important misinformation about Blu-ray profiles would never had come to light, in any forum, if a competing Insider didn't repeately challenge the faulty information. If the rules had remained intact perhaps the Blu-ray folks would have been able to provide equally important clarifications.

Please reconsider your action. I realize the old rules put a burden on the moderators, but that's what it takes to maintain a forum without peer.

Thanks.

Larry

I agree. How can a real debate be had, without mentioning the other side?

Also a lot of mis-information has had the "bright light" shone on it and folks have been more aware of the realities and not the hype.

Limit the answers to questions to a reasonable limit. Don't limit the questions.

-t

Your answer in psychiatry is called deflection or avoidance. Just answer the damn question.
I admit it, I am just not cut out for this arguing. After a few quips, I'm pretty much done. Last night, it took me to 3AM to realize that. Tonight I am way ahead of the game.

Have fun folks and feel secure in your knowledge that you're work here is valuable to society.

guys: I am editing the new rule to hopefully address some questions: this rule is flowed down to the mods and we are obligated to enforce it:

it is not meant to censor but to limit some out of line comments

revised rule:

New Rule, please read.
If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not disparage or bash the opposing format in any way.

Please play fair.

Thank you!!

I think this is reasonable and easy to comply with

Thank you

Thank you Mark. However, isn't this basically the same rule as before, just reworded differently? What I am wondering is how can an insider show that their format has benefits without referencing the shortcomings of the competing format? Maybe there should be an industry insiders forum in the HD DVD subforum, and one for Blu-ray in the Blu-ray subforum?

So in other words, rule rescinded, nothing has changed?

Thank you Mark. However, isn't this basically the same rule as before, just reworded differently? What I am wondering is how can an insider show that their format has benefits without referencing the shortcomings of the competing format?

I am sure Insiders and members alike know how to post within these guidelines

You beat me to that one Mark:mad: I was just about to say, I dont think its the questioning of insiders that is the problem, but rather the tone and rude manner in which it is done. Manners cost nothing and tend to get you futher and faster than not using them. For example:

Amir,

Upto to $200 true cost of bd50 seems a little ott How do you arrive at such a high figure?

Regards

John.

Could have been worded thus:

Hey lying f****** fud miester for M$:mad: Where do you get off making outragious lies like that you m******* etc etc etc. Extreme example but some posts have been getting pretty close to this.

Which method of questioning is likely to get a response?

Regards

John.

I don't know Mark, this rule really rubs me the wrong way.

Insiders are labeled with which format they represent. Does AVS really believe that their readers are so stupid that they think what an insider says about their opposing format without a huge amount of discretion?

And now they should be afraid of somehow insulting a piece of machinery?

The ONLY statements by insiders that should be censored would be a personal attack upon another insider. And I'd give that a huge amount of leeway as well.

This is just so insulting to the readers of AVS.

I am sure Insiders and members alike know how to post within these guidelines


I was under the impression they were always expected to post under 'those' guidelines.

Thank you Mark. However, isn't this basically the same rule as before, just reworded differently? What I am wondering is how can an insider show that their format has benefits without referencing the shortcomings of the competing format? Maybe there should be an industry insiders forum in the HD DVD subforum, and one for Blu-ray in the Blu-ray subforum?

I think the word "bash" is what is important here. To me that means they can't just make off the cuff remarks without any proof. For example, if one guy says "Blu Ray is made of people" they better have proof to back it up.

It's funny, because I never called anyone any names and was civil in my conversation from the start, even though I was called many. I just don't get your point.

And you expected different, given what you signed up specifically to argue in favor of? I have a hard time believing you're that naive.

And you expected different, given what you signed up specifically to argue in favor of? I have a hard time believing you're that naive.

What exactly was I arguing for?

Right. Now that the rules for this and the primary Insider thread have been clarified, can we get back on topic please?

Thank you.

I am also unhappy about the new rule.

setting a standard of proof in a public forum is not the answer. With this standard, even Dave could not post about the yield reports he is getting as a journalist. This will just close off discussion.

I am format neutral and own both. I really enjoy learning about what is going on - proof or not. In my eyes, what Amir has said about BD has been very credible and "proven" over time; what Talk has said about HD DVD issues with dynamic branching has been as well.

It's refreshing to have Insiders tell us what we should know about. We can decide what to believe or not.

And yes, I agree that people should be civil, but Insiders should not be restricted. If they are, I don't think I'll find this thread as interesting as I used to.

I agree with the proposal to have an Insider thread in the BD and HD DVD forums. Then both sides can share information and we can decide what we want to believe or not.

OK. This is a sponsored forum. Posts that favor one side or the other too much are unwelcome

I think the word "bash" is what is important here. To me that means they can't just make off the cuff remarks without any proof. For example, if one guy says "Blu Ray is made of people" they better have proof to back it up.
The rule specifies "bash" or "disparage":

The informal definition of bash is "To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly", however with disparage it is "1. to speak of or treat slightingly; depreciate; belittle; and 2. to bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of."

It my view one cannot discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the other format. To address a shortcoming requires a certain degree of the latter.

The rule specifies "bash" or "disparage":

The informal definition of bash is "To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly", however with disparage it is "1. to speak of or treat slightingly; depreciate; belittle; and 2. to bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of."

It my view one cannot discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the other format. To address a shortcoming requires a certain degree of the latter.

I decided to check your definitions because "accusatorially" isn't a word. These are from Merriam Webster:

Bash - 1 : to strike violently : HIT; also : to injure or damage by striking : SMASH -- often used with in
2 : to attack physically or verbally <media bashing> <celebrity bashing>

Disparage - 1 : to lower in rank or reputation : DEGRADE
2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about


I put this only because I want to make sure we are all on the same page

Accusatorially (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=accusatorially&x=20&y=10)

I understand the intent of this new rule, but I think it is ill advised and counterproductive. Knowledge often comes from criticism made by opponents.

I would like to express my gratitude for the new rules governing the postings of insiders.

It is great to see the staff here respond to some of the issues that have troubled so many of us.

This is a step in the right direction.

Now hopefully we will see moderators follow through with a strict enforcement of the new rule.

I would like to express my gratitude for the new rules governing the postings of insiders.

It is great to see the staff here respond to some of the issues that have troubled so many of us.

This is a step in the right direction.

Now hopefully we will see moderators follow through with a strict enforcement of the new rule.Just in from another BD fan...

I can comfortably state that peak bandwidth is necessary for seamless branching. Is this technology available on HD-DVD?

Picture quality isn't just about moving pixels... it is the whole experience.


Ah I see. So what if I told you the ability to edit out obscene content so my kids can watch films (300 HD DVD) and PiP (300, Bourne ID, Batman, Children of Men, The Good Shepard, Constantine, King Kong, Troy, V for V, and those are just the ones I own) were more important to me than seamless branching?

What if I told you downloadable content was more important to me than peek bit-rates?

None of that content is available on BD today. Some of it eventually will be on BD and if you want it you are going to need to double-dip.

How many BDs do you have with seamless branching?

Has seamless branching enriched your life the way watching 300 with my 13 year-old son and 11 year-old daughter, sans nudity and the more extreme violence, has enriched my life? I'm really happy that I purchased 300 on HD DVD because the advanced features and the overall experience is much more pleasing than it is on DVD or BD. Can you say the same thing about the seamless branching in AVP or the Descent? Do you own those movies on BD? Are there any other BDs that have that feature? I'm inclined to think that seamless branching is simply a BD fanboy talking point, but if I'm really missing something more significant than a disk-swap (Theatrical Cut to Director's Cut) I want to know.

EDIT: BACK ON TOPIC

Can one of the HD DVD insiders tell me if upping the HD DVD spin rate to 1.5X will increase the peak bandwidth as has been said in the past?

If it is true has the HD DVD group looked at issuing a firmware update to increase the drive speed on current HD DVD drives? It is my understanding that all of the drives in the consumer market are capable of 2X speeds so an update should be theoretically possible.

Any insider thoughts on HD DVD drive speeds, peak bandwidth or seamless branching?

I understand the intent of this new rule, but I think it is ill advised and counterproductive. Knowledge often comes from criticism made by opponents.
Indeed, it does.

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it." -Jeseph Joubert

This is the AV Science forum. Not the speculation forum. If an insider wants to post blatantly incorrect information (like a BD costing $100) then they must back it up with proof. Something that their peers can review and agree upon.

I can see how he makes up that information. If the BD upgrade at Terra Haute costs $80+ million. And they have sold just a million discs... then he is correct.

But if we apply that flawed logic to other industries it is funny... the plane ticket I bought to get to Denver should cost $900,000. The first memory chips from a new foundry should cost $18,000 each. A Toyota from a new factory should cost $2 million.

Give me a break, capital expenses are spread out over the life of the product. Not in the first year. Amir knows this, and is just spreading FUD.

This is the AV Science forum. Not the speculation forum. If an insider wants to post blatantly incorrect information (like a BD costing $100) then they must back it up with proof. Something that their peers can review and agree upon.

I can see how he makes up that information. If the BD upgrade at Terra Haute costs $80+ million. And they have sold just a million discs... then he is correct.

But if we apply that flawed logic to other industries it is funny... the plane ticket I bought to get to Denver should cost $900,000. The first memory chips from a new foundry should cost $18,000 each. A Toyota from a new factory should cost $2 million.

Give me a break, capital expenses are spread out over the life of the product. Not in the first year. Amir knows this, and is just spreading FUD.

+1

It is hard to imagine that as a VP with lots of indutry experience he somehow missed financial accounting 101.

Therefore I conclude that he is doing this deliberately and maliciously.

I think the insider thread would be more useful if the questions were truly designed to increase our collective knowledge rather than to bait an insider or to paint a format in an unfavorable light.

I also think the thread would be better if the insiders responded as professionals with relevant, fact-based information.

Is that asking too much? Maybe so.

The question in my mind is, who benefits at this point from lack of discussion? In effect, one side has information that it can protect with NDAs and force partners to not answer questions on the record ("proof"). This side has turned up the heat with its fanboys and they are going to cause problems on Insider threads. The information coming out is hitting them hard as it **may** have some truth.

Again, I own both formats.

Anyone remember Rambus vs. DDR? Rambus was more advanced but was hard to manufacture and had lower yields (and more expensive). It's history now... I see the same thing happening now and the lack of insider comments on competing formats actually allows secrets to stay... secrets.

By saying the point is moot you are claiming that it doesn't matter how much it costs to replicate media as long as it gets to market. I would say that Paramount disagrees with you for starters, as would any studio having to foot the bill for a media with a high failure rate.

I am not claiming that it doesn't matter how much it costs to replicate media. I'm saying that the fixation on it here is pointless when we do not get objective data and any claims from one side are refuted by the other, all without facts to back up the claims.

Paramount does not disagree with me at all. My opinion and position about disc replication costs are irrelevant to them. If you are a professional that has to make these decisions, you have far more information than we do here. As a consumer/enthusiast, I need to determine what is best for my allocation of entertainment dollars. When a studio chooses to leave one format for another, THAT IS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IN THIS CASE. If more studios defect from Blu-ray, then it will become very clear that something is wrong in disc production for that format. If it goes the other way, then we'll know that replication costs can be factored in to a sustainable model in the opinions of the studios.

IMHO, the claims and counterclaims from the insiders and their fans were useless as far as providing meaningful information. And as far as I can tell, these conversations were a large part of what led to the significant negative changes to the thread.

I think the insider thread would be more useful if the questions were truly designed to increase our collective knowledge rather than to bait an insider or to paint a format in an unfavorable light.

I also think the thread would be better if the insiders responded as professionals with relevant, fact-based information.

Is that asking too much? Maybe so.

+1. I have learned a lot from folks like Amir, Paidgeek, Talk, Ben, Fimmixer, etc (there are many more!) I really miss the days of going to the Insiders forum and not having to weed through 10 pages of insults, loaded questions, opinionated diatribes, and childish rants about how evil and terrible the other format is.

The way I see it is that neither format is going anywhere anytime soon. We may as all get along and learn from each other. Both formats have positives and negatives, but both formats are a huge upgrade over DVD. I hope this thread gets back on track.

The question in my mind is, who benefits at this point from lack of discussion? In effect, one side has information that it can protect with NDAs and force partners to not answer questions on the record ("proof"). This side has turned up the heat with its fanboys and they are going to cause problems on Insider threads. The information coming out is hitting them hard as it **may** have some truth.



AVS has decided that they are in the business of squelching insider discussion instead of encouraging it and judging from the above posts insulting insiders, it's actually dragging the tone of this forum even lower.

Accusatorially (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=accusatorially&x=20&y=10)

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=accusatorially

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=accusatorially
Lol. My dictionary is bigger than yours. :p:D

This is the AV Science forum. Not the speculation forum. If an insider wants to post blatantly incorrect information (like a BD costing $100) then they must back it up with proof. Something that their peers can review and agree upon.

I can see how he makes up that information. If the BD upgrade at Terra Haute costs $80+ million. And they have sold just a million discs... then he is correct.

But if we apply that flawed logic to other industries it is funny... the plane ticket I bought to get to Denver should cost $900,000. The first memory chips from a new foundry should cost $18,000 each. A Toyota from a new factory should cost $2 million.

Give me a break, capital expenses are spread out over the life of the product. Not in the first year. Amir knows this, and is just spreading FUD.

You do realize Amir is labeled an HD DVD insider right?

It is very illustrative though that the blu-ray people here are for controlling and censoring what people say.

Lol. My dictionary is bigger than yours. :p:D

I think its a matter of choosing a word. M-W has it listed as accusatory.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=accusatory

As a format-neutral person, I am disturbed by the lack of information about the Blu-ray profiles. If it were not for Amir, how would we get Paid or Talk to discuss this topic? There is no way Amir could post "proof" without opening his sources to be silenced.

The standard of proof being demanded would not even have allowed the New York Times to report the insider comments of the two Viacom execs about the $150 mil. No journalist could meet that standard and the end result would be more secrecy.

Knowing more makes me wait on buying another player and keeping the PS3, which has more than met my expectations.

Amir and Dave, many thanks for all the information you've provided. Even if the open discussion is not allowed to continue, maybe unbiased journalists can pick up the pieces in their own web sites. Ultimately, the truth will come out and people who tell the truth will be vindicated.

As a consumer/enthusiast, I need to determine what is best for my allocation of entertainment dollars. When a studio chooses to leave one format for another, THAT IS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IN THIS CASE.

Then as a consumer/enthusiast who is concerned with the allocation of your entertainment dollars, you want to invest those dollars into the technology that has the best chance of winning this format war and you should factor in all relevant data in making such an assessment.

I am afraid that weather or not you want to admit it, these yield issues that you say are irrelevant will matter quite a lot in the outcome of this format war, and the fate of your entertainment dollar (since that is what matters to you.)

And there have been others to back up claims of low yields, and the BDA's complete silence on the numbers should really tell you everything you need to know.

Hi,

In response to a deleted suggestion on the Industry Insider Master thread:

How about a simple rule: if an insider posts information about the opposing format.... that they must supply ample proof. Obviously questions between format insiders should be acceptable. But we certainly cannot just sit around making stuff up!


Now that's a very constructive idea that the moderators should implement!

So for example, when Talk made that statement that Blu-ray standalone players had 63% of the market, he should have at the outset been required to disclose how he arrived at that dubious figure? It shouldn't have required a series of followup questions to extract the fact out of him that the misleading statistic was based on revenue not player count.

However, I do appreciate that he was candid enough to later concede the revenue figure was used for marketing purposes.

Larry

This is the AV Science forum. Not the speculation forum. If an insider wants to post blatantly incorrect information (like a BD costing $100) then they must back it up with proof. Something that their peers can review and agree upon.

I can see how he makes up that information. If the BD upgrade at Terra Haute costs $80+ million. And they have sold just a million discs... then he is correct.

But if we apply that flawed logic to other industries it is funny... the plane ticket I bought to get to Denver should cost $900,000. The first memory chips from a new foundry should cost $18,000 each. A Toyota from a new factory should cost $2 million.

Give me a break, capital expenses are spread out over the life of the product. Not in the first year. Amir knows this, and is just spreading FUD.


Okay, so you say you see how he comes to that, so it's valid, only flawed in your opinion correct?

Okay, so let me ask you this, forget about your examples about plane tickets and chip factories..

Can you do the same thing for HD DVD and compare it to the BD and show me the numbers.

I'm not saying that I agree with $100-$200 per BD as I really have no interest in analyzing those costs as they don't really affect me as they are not in-effect, but please do make a comparison.

The only fair way to look at both formats is to compare statements to each format. Simple as that. If that was the case, HD DVD despite the fact that it has less storage space and somewhat less bitrate would still come out victorious with the things it offers today. But this is exactly why Blu-Ray insiders and promoters are trying not to do. It's much more effective for them to continue yelling space and bitrate (none of which really benefit the consumer today nor it is 100% clear how it will benefit the consumer in the future) then to sit down and compare point by point.

This is exactly why BDA avoided going open dialog with HD DVD on the last EMA where HD DVD guys called them out for comparison debate. Instead, Billl Hunt comes to the rescue with his asinine statements and logic.

Let's face facts here.

As I pointed out in the thread, the insider thread was started primarily for Amir (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11488652#post11488652). Amir is in the unusal position of being a very highly placed insider that is willing to openly debate about things that many want kept private. From what I understand even people jobs have been placed at risk over things posted in the insider thread. But then there is a lot of money at stake after all here.

Mark says the rules come from above moderator level. Apparently this is bringing some discomfort to AVS.

With rules being created primarily to keep Amir in check perhaps he should consider starting his own blog and posting freely throughout AVS to link to it, just as posters are doing posting and linking to blu-ray.com Amir and other hd dvd insiders cold focus from a site friendly to their format while still posting freely at AVS.

Maybe the Blu team is just being smarter by simply using AVS to post to their insider information on their own supporting product site where the directioni is controlled, blu-ray.com.

Linking AVS users to posts and registering supporters on the Blu site to get the inside scoop is smart business and if AVS needs to ease the heat perhaps the Red team should play the same way and let the games continue. ;)

Let's face facts here.

As I pointed out in the thread, the insider thread was started primarily for Amir (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11488652#post11488652). Amir is in the unusal position of being a very highly placed insider that is willing to openly debate about things that many want kept private. From what I understand even people jobs have been placed at risk over things posted in the insider thread. But then there is a lot of money at stake after all here.

Mark says the rules come from above moderator level. Apparently this is bringing some discomfort to AVS.

With rules being created primarily to keep Amir in check perhaps he should consider starting his own blog and posting freely throughout AVS to link to it, just as posters are doing posting and linking to blu-ray.com Amir and other hd dvd insiders cold focus from a site friendly to their format while still posting freely at AVS.

Maybe the Blu team is just being smarter by simply using AVS to post to their insider information on their own supporting product site where the directioni is controlled, blu-ray.com.

Linking AVS users to posts and registering supporters on the Blu site to get the inside scoop is smart business and if AVS needs to ease the heat perhaps the Red team should play the same way and let the games continue. ;)

Hi,

You make a very interesting point.

Unfortunately for the AV Sciences' owners, their current rules, even softened somewhat, are pretty much asking for the the outcome that you describe along with the resulting loss in traffic.

Larry

For HD DVD insiders:

Guys, I have to ask, would you help support (with your information and overall knowledge) the site for HD DVD promotion that I'm building? Unlike fan sites I am building HD DVD site to educate the public who is getting ready to jump into it this holiday season.

The site will be very very interactive with sections about everything pertaining to HD DVD but for all levels of consumers (the J6P, the amateur and the enthusiasts).

I would basically have a blog there where I would bring you guys in to answer general questions about manufacturing of HD DVD, authoring and overall capabilities of the format.

I would really love to have you involved as I can guarantee you that this site will be something very special and cool. I've been doing this for a while for entertainment industry.

Of course, knowing what the legal issues with HD DVD studios and other HD DVD groups bring, I would keep you guys informed with the design and progress all the way before anything is even published so there would be no surprises.

So, bottom line, just as you answer questions here on AVS. Would you help educate the public through the site I will put up? (some urls for the site that will be available: HIDEFWORLD.ORG, KNOWHDDVD.COM, WORLDINHIDEF.COM)

This is really for educating completely unaware public the differences between 1080p UPCONVERTED DVD players that are being sold today, the new cool interactivity and online features, the fact that it's region free and that people can freely import titles without fear that it won't work on their players, the picture quality examples, interviews with anyone i can grab a hold of in Hollywood etc etc. It is for the sake of consumers.

Thanks.

Try PM to the insiders as well if you haven't nfinity.

Archibael,

The last time I asked you a question, you did answer it but said it was more appropriate for the HTPC forum. I have a lot of questions for an Intel insider, but I'm unsure if any are not PC-related. So can you give me some general areas of your expertise/experience that are related to hi-def media?

Let's face facts here.

As I pointed out in the thread, the insider thread was started primarily for Amir (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11488652#post11488652). Amir is in the unusal position of being a very highly placed insider that is willing to openly debate about things that many want kept private. From what I understand even people jobs have been placed at risk over things posted in the insider thread. But then there is a lot of money at stake after all here.

Mark says the rules come from above moderator level. Apparently this is bringing some discomfort to AVS.

With rules being created primarily to keep Amir in check perhaps he should consider starting his own blog and posting freely throughout AVS to link to it, just as posters are doing posting and linking to blu-ray.com Amir and other hd dvd insiders cold focus from a site friendly to their format while still posting freely at AVS.

Maybe the Blu team is just being smarter by simply using AVS to post to their insider information on their own supporting product site where the directioni is controlled, blu-ray.com.

Linking AVS users to posts and registering supporters on the Blu site to get the inside scoop is smart business and if AVS needs to ease the heat perhaps the Red team should play the same way and let the games continue. ;)
Anybody notice the Blu-ray ad that was here earlier today has disappeared? Typical

I think if insiders are not permitted to discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the other format, then insiders should not be permitted to respond with half-assed answers when asked a good question and non-insiders should be permitted to call them out on 'non-answers'.

Alright, I'm tired of beating around the bush! I'm not favoring either side, but honestly, when it came to debating and providing a point and counterpoint Paid got his butt kicked. He did not have all the information, and until I've seen a BD50 in my hands why should I believe anything he has said. This will probably be censured too, but really who is the whining babies!!!

There are plenty of them out there? Wal Mart, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City...you can find BD50s everywhere. What exactly are you trying to say?

There are plenty of them out there? Wal Mart, Target, Best Buy, Circuit City...you can find BD50s everywhere. What exactly are you trying to say?Exactly. Here (http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php) is a link to a database with blu-ray stats. All the BD50's can be listed by selecting BD50 in the drop down menu, then "filter". The list is (pretty close to up-to-date, I think). The first BD50 was sold almost a year ago, IIRC (maybe Nov?). Note that 40% of the discs out there now (since inception) are BD50's.

Exactly. Here (http://www.blu-raystats.com/index.php) is a link to a database with blu-ray stats. All the BD50's can be listed by selecting BD50 in the drop down menu, then "filter". The list is (pretty close to up-to-date, I think). The first BD50 was sold almost a year ago, IIRC (maybe Nov?). Note that 40% of the discs out there now (since inception) are BD50's.

Dayum, average price of DLBD50 is $34.79. No wonder I don't buy a lot of them.

If it weren't for HD DVD they'd probably all be $50 and Blu-ray standalones would all still be selling for $1000 or more.

For HD DVD insiders:

Guys, I have to ask, would you help support (with your information and overall knowledge) the site for HD DVD promotion that I'm building? Unlike fan sites I am building HD DVD site to educate the public who is getting ready to jump into it this holiday season.

The site will be very very interactive with sections about everything pertaining to HD DVD but for all levels of consumers (the J6P, the amateur and the enthusiasts).

I would basically have a blog there where I would bring you guys in to answer general questions about manufacturing of HD DVD, authoring and overall capabilities of the format.

I would really love to have you involved as I can guarantee you that this site will be something very special and cool. I've been doing this for a while for entertainment industry.

Of course, knowing what the legal issues with HD DVD studios and other HD DVD groups bring, I would keep you guys informed with the design and progress all the way before anything is even published so there would be no surprises.

So, bottom line, just as you answer questions here on AVS. Would you help educate the public through the site I will put up? (some urls for the site that will be available: HIDEFWORLD.ORG, KNOWHDDVD.COM, WORLDINHIDEF.COM)

This is really for educating completely unaware public the differences between 1080p UPCONVERTED DVD players that are being sold today, the new cool interactivity and online features, the fact that it's region free and that people can freely import titles without fear that it won't work on their players, the picture quality examples, interviews with anyone i can grab a hold of in Hollywood etc etc. It is for the sake of consumers.

Thanks.
I would hate to leave this place to the BD fannery, but if it does it there may be no choice.

Uhh - full disclosure: Are you or have you ever been a registered member of blu-ray.com that bans BD dissent? Are you trying to apply that standard here? :mad:

Question applies to everyone that agrees with the change.

I think that maybe that change could be helpful in controlling emotions and limiting attack-mode behaviors in the Q&A thread. But I see it as a muzzle in the tracking thread.

I can understand the moderators wanting to provide a "safer" place for more sensitive insiders to contribute, but I don't see that as beng an important consideration for BOTH threads. There's certainly nothing wrong with an insider choosing to participate in the Q&A while steering clear of the less restrictive environment of the Tranking thread.

However, at the same time, I don't think the lack of decorum and mutual respect that inaugurated the tracking thread is appropriate for any thread anywhere within AVS. There is no advantage in providing a venue for more relaxed discourse, if the participants are going to immediately drive away any insiders who venture there.

I also don't think telling people they are whining over and over again is a sign of either maturity or wisdom.

Amirm, given this difficulty of BD-50 wouldn't this pretty much elminate pirated copies of BD-50 disks? Would this not be something looked upon as a advantage by the studios?

Ok, first my opinion. Amirm chose not to answer this. That is his right, to ignor questions that might be unfavorable to HD DVD or favorable to Blu-Ray. He has ignored HD DVD questions on the Insider Thread before, but he uses every chance to cast doubt on Blu-Ray. After his $100 or more for cost of Blu-Ray 50 disk he should just stick to answering HD DVD questions. Just my opinion.

My question is this. Is this the real reason that studios are staying with Blu-Ray. That if BD-50 is a sucess, that would eliminate pirated copies of HI Def Blu-Ray optical disks being sold.

At one time DVDs were so huge that nobody would have ever wanted to copy them or distribute them on the internet. Disc size will never play a significant role long term in this regard.

Ok, first my opinion. Amirm chose not to answer this. That is his right, to ignor questions that might be unfavorable to HD DVD or favorable to Blu-Ray. He has ignored HD DVD questions on the Insider Thread before, but he uses every chance to cast doubt on Blu-Ray. After his $100 or more for cost of Blu-Ray 50 disk he should just stick to answering HD DVD questions. Just my opinion.

My question is this. Is this the real reason that studios are staying with Blu-Ray. That if BD-50 is a sucess, that would eliminate pirated copies of HI Def Blu-Ray optical disks being sold.
For the rest of us, could you clarify? Pirate copies aren't made on fab lines.

For the rest of us, could you clarify? Pirate copies aren't made on fab lines.

That's what I am asking. Can a BD 50 be made ouside of an authorized fab line now and what are the chances given the cost and copy protection requirments for Blu-Ray that this would be possible in say 5+ years?

I'll ask again in here:

If an insider repeatedly breaks the rules of the Insiders' Thread, what is the punishment? A rule without consequences is pointless.

I'll ask again in here:

If an insider repeatedly breaks the rules of the Insiders' Thread, what is the punishment? A rule without consequences is pointless.
And a pointless rule is not without consequence.

let me cut this short . check the insider's signature. Amir, Dave, Tom, and most of the HD DVD and independent insiders have their names plastered in their signatures. That says a lot !!

That's what I am asking. Can a BD 50 be made ouside of an authorized fab line now and what are the chances given the cost and copy protection requirments for Blu-Ray that this would be possible in say 5+ years?

That's a very good question. Remember, one of the BDA Talking Points is that 50GB will rule the PC/Data market because it's great for backups. Unless BD50's are going to be a dime a dozen -- that simply isn't going to occur in reality. So we're stuck a bit ... if they are a dime a dozen and they are used for backups in PC/Data, then it would make it really easy to pirate. If they are hard to come by, then the talking point of higher capacity is as a PC/Data benefit is ... well ... moot.

In light of the new rules, I don't see how I can address follow ups regarding my comment on "proper" BD disc pricing. If Mods like to relax the rules temporarily, I will address it. Otherwise, I suggest folks read every word I said carefully. Some of the answer is there if you squint hard enough :).

Archibael,

The last time I asked you a question, you did answer it but said it was more appropriate for the HTPC forum. I have a lot of questions for an Intel insider, but I'm unsure if any are not PC-related. So can you give me some general areas of your expertise/experience that are related to hi-def media?

If I can't answer I'll pass it up to those who can. My area of expertise is in CPU and chipset capabilities and how they relate to playback of BDs and HD DVDs, and I have contacts in the areas which are promoting such in the HTPC space.

That's as insider as I get. If it comes to real BD or HD DVD specs, Amir or Talk (or Dave Vaughn, quite possibly) are to be trusted more than I.

Glad to see the new rules. Certain insiders disparaging the other format were ruining the purpose of these threads IMO.

So now, with the new rules, we only get extremely short and safe answers from Amir.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11504584&postcount=247
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11504641&postcount=249
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11504746&postcount=252

If I can't answer I'll pass it up to those who can. My area of expertise is in CPU and chipset capabilities and how they relate to playback of BDs and HD DVDs, and I have contacts in the areas which are promoting such in the HTPC space.

That's as insider as I get. If it comes to real BD or HD DVD specs, Amir or Talk (or Dave Vaughn, quite possibly) are to be trusted more than I.

Do you know of/frequent any place where there are CPU/chipset folks answering questions like on AVS? I definitely have some questions but even though you are an Intel insider, AVS probably isn't the best place to talk ask questions about chipsets :D

Insiders Tracking Thread: post it here

This thread compliments the Insiders Q&A thread: posts not allowed in the Insiders Q&A thread can be posted here;

Insiders/ Outsiders invited to post here; please be sure your post meets AVS guidelines :)

Hi Mark,

If I understand these new rules correctly, both in this thread and in the Insider Master thread, insiders are not permitted to point out the limitations of the competing format. Correct?

The only additional latitude granted here is that non-insiders can make polite followup remarks or questions that would be deleted in the Master thread?

If insiders are prohibited from discussing the competing formats limitations, doesn't that force insiders outside the AV Sciences forums to competing forums, or their own personal blogs, etc? Is that what the forum owners desire? :confused:

Or, is this sort of discussion still permitted outside the designated Insider threads in the regular AV Sciences threads? If so, what possible purpose does it serve to employ this restrictive rule in the Insider threads if the discussion can be conducted elsewhere? :confused:

It just seems logically inconsistant to have this rule in BOTH insider threads. How about relaxing the rule here and let those courageous insiders participate as they see fit rather than in a regular AVS forum or competing forums?

Larry

So now, with the new rules, we only get extremely short and safe answers from Amir.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11504584&postcount=247
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11504641&postcount=249

dun worry - he likes write. its probably killing to have to write yes or no .. he will be coming back writing more ..

the problem that people have with amir is that he is with MS BUT he was with sony and still have lots of contacts in Sony. Amir he is BIG problem for people like Paid and Talk who evidently cannot 'function' properly in this forum because of him. God bless you Amir !! I love people who make other's lives miserable (for positive reasons ofcourse) :D :D

So, when we were given a chart that shows BD has 63% of the player sales in the Euro market we are just to accept that and not ask any questions? The chart did not tell us what criteria was used to determine this number. After questioning, Talk told us it was based on dollars spent on players. Since BD players cost nearly double, that chart was very misleading.

To top it off Talk then tried to redirect the post to HD DVD’s chart. Talk said at lest the BD chart did not leave out any information like the HD DVD chart. What is absurd is the HD DVD chart stated stand alone sales. HD DVD did not leave out information, nor did they try to trick people like BD attempted to do by leaving out information. It is obvious things like this that make it hard to trust BD.

I do not own either format. I plan on going dual format once the players offer the audio (DTS HD MA) that I want. I guess most of my posts look like I support the HD DVD side, but I think it looks that way because I find more outlandish BD claims compared to HD DVD claims. I think the BD insiders are uncomfortable here because it looks to me that the BD side did not like getting pinned down with questions that they did not or could not answer.

So, when we were given a chart that shows BD has 63% of the player sales in the Euro market we are just to accept that and not ask any questions? The chart did not tell us what criteria was used to determine this number. After questioning, Talk told us it was based on dollars spent on players. Since BD players cost nearly double, that chart was very misleading.

To top it off Talk then tried to redirect the post to HD DVD’s chart. Talk said at lest the BD chart did not leave out any information like the HD DVD chart. What is absurd is the HD DVD chart stated stand alone sales. HD DVD did not leave out information, nor did they try to trick people like BD attempted to do by leaving out information. It is obvious things like this that make it hard to trust BD.

I do not own either format. I plan on going dual format once the players offer the audio (DTS HD MA) that I want. I guess most of my posts look like I support the HD DVD side, but I think it looks that way because I find more outlandish BD claims compared to HD DVD claims. I think the BD insiders are uncomfortable here because it looks to me that the BD side did not like getting pinned down with questions that they did not or could not answer.

well said! i definitely think that the collective decision of BD insiders to leave AVS is to some how apply pressure on AVS to change the style in the Insiders thread.

Mark,

Thank you for modifying the old rule.

However, the choice of adjectives, i.e. "disparage" and "bash", is unfortunate, JMHO. When there is candid and honest debate and discussion, it is unavoidable to point out the shortcomings of the opposing side. This may cause the opposing side felt disparaged or bashed, but as long as they fight back with their own facts instead of dancing around the point, it should be OK.

It is really hard for outsiders to know whether that is true or not. As long as the insiders use be reasonable and respectful in their arguments, I can live with that. Here is not the court of law. Only time and hard work from people behind the scenes will validate or dispute all claims made here.

If we have to live with this New and Modified rule, whoever come up with it should provide examples/cases of what constitute "disparage or bash". Otherwise, finger pointing will become norm and insiders will be no where to be found.

It is obvious things like this that make it hard to trust BD.Then please tell me what you think of an HD-DVD presenter at IFA saying: "Many Blu-ray owners will only get advanced features if they buy new players with BD Java..."http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/ifa2007/hd-dvd-press-conference-in-fast-forward-295636.php

That's a flat-out lie. Every BD player has BD Java.

In light of the new rules, I don't see how I can address follow ups regarding my comment on "proper" BD disc pricing. If Mods like to relax the rules temporarily, I will address it. Otherwise, I suggest folks read every word I said carefully. Some of the answer is there if you squint hard enough :).
If one reason for the new rule is due to receiving a few complaints because some may have misconstrued or misunderstood, then I think it is only fair that permission is given to address any contention. It is inconceivable in my opinion that a rule such as this be put in place in an Industry Insider's forum, of all places. If anything, this is where insiders should be permitted to debate. This is what made AVS the pinnacle of technical discussion and polemics, and it need not always be a "touchy feel good" forum where we all get together and hold hands, imho.

Then please tell me what you think of an HD-DVD presenter at IFA saying: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/ifa2007/hd-dvd-press-conference-in-fast-forward-295636.php

That's a flat-out lie. Every BD player has BD Java.
In the context which they were speaking, one can easily surmise that are referring to BD profile 1.1 and/or 2.0. Notice the ellipses at the end of the statement...

What I found to be truly explosive in the last week has been Dave's confirmation of Amir's information about low BD50 yields. Maybe in the future, Talk will have data about the TL51 to share. This is an important discussion that should be allowed somewhere.

Secrecy is the best weapon for major corporations and the new rules help both sides keep their secrets from all of us.

What I found to be truly explosive in the last week has been Dave's confirmation of Amir's information about low BD50 yields. Maybe in the future, Talk will have data about the TL51 to share. This is an important discussion that should be allowed somewhere.

Secrecy is the best weapon for major corporations and the new rules help both sides keep their secrets from all of us.
So you believe it is OK for important information to be hidden from consumers if it can affect their purchasing decisions?

So you believe it is OK for important information to be hidden from consumers if it can affect their purchasing decisions?


No, I said that the discussion should be allowed to take place somewhere (maybe in the HD DVD forum?). I want to hear more :)

The fact that so many people seem incapable of grasping even the concept of discussing both formats objectively, rather than by bashing and belittling the other side, speaks volumes about why such a rule is needed.

What many can't grasp is that objective data is secret and protected by both sides. Only leaks reveal some of these secrets to us mere mortals.

There is no way for us to see the objective yield raw data, is there?

However, it is hard for insiders to fool other insiders, as they have access to industry sources who can pass on information that is secret.

It's all about secrets. Trust me, I've been here before in my industry.

What I found to be truly explosive in the last week has been Dave's confirmation of Amir's information about low BD50 yields.

Ironic isnt it? Imagine Sony's PR machine did not call bloggers and internet sites and journalists and accuse Para and DW of backing HD DVD exclusive SOLELY because of the $150mil 'financial incentives' I wouldnt think the voices to defend Para and DW would be that strong and pointing out the amazingly low BD50 yield and high cost were Para and DW's reasons for doing so. If Sony did not started that, may be their BD50 low yield secret would keep on being a secret. Just to throw in some conspiracy theory, how big are the chances that one of Dave' and Amir' sources might be from angry execs from Paramount or Dreamworks ? :p

Sony PR highlighted the $150mil MI (marketing incentive) we do not believe that is the sole reason so we dig deeper for other reasoning and hollaaa da bomb!! the 40% and 10% that until now no one from BDA has contradicted.

What many can't grasp is that objective data is secret and protected by both sides. Only leaks reveal some of these secrets to us mere mortals.

There is no way for us to see the objective yield raw data, is there?

However, it is hard for insiders to fool other insiders, as they have access to industry sources who can pass on information that is secret.

It's all about secrets. Trust me, I've been here before in my industry.And why is it so hard for those insiders to mention those secrets in a straightforward, respectable way, rather than through snide comments and innuendo?

If you know something, lay it on the table and let it be examined, don't play stupid childish games while throwing out rumour and accusation.

Ironic isnt it? Imagine Sony's PR machine did not call bloggers and internet sites and journalists and accuse Para and DW of backing HD DVD exclusive SOLELY because of the $150mil 'financial incentives' I wouldnt think the voices to defend Para and DW would be that strong and pointing out the amazingly low BD50 yield and high cost were Para and DW's reasons for doing so. If Sony did not started that, may be their BD50 low yield secret would keep on being a secret. Just to throw in some conspiracy theory, how big are the chances that one of Dave' and Amir' sources might be from angry execs from Paramount or Dreamworks ? :p

Sony PR highlighted the $150mil MI (marketing incentive) we do not believe that is the sole reason so we dig deeper for other reasoning and hollaaa da bomb!! the 40% and 10% that until now no one from BDA has contradicted.

Bingo.. When Paramount payoff accussation came out we've clearly heard from EVERYONE involved in HD DVD. Microsoft, Paramount guys, and even Toshiba all explaining what happened or explained the reasons of the decision.

But no, you know, for Blu-bois this is simply unacceptable. There has to be something more because Blu-Ray greased Nikki Finke started off the payoff information the day before the announcement that was picked up by NYT.

So now suddenly we MUST believe "unnamed sources", Blu-Ray.com, Billy - blu eyepatch - Hunt instead of ALL executives and technical directors from all sides of the deal. Amazing.

What would be so problematic for anyone from BDA to come out and say..NO! the yield problems are not true and we can deliver 90% yields and then back it up with data and 3rd party companies that offer such service.

Why any of that is professional secret? We already have that information for HD DVD.

I think that insiders should be able to say what they wish and how they wish it. They should engage each other for a good debate and exchange. They would be like a panel of company representatives debating each other for our benefit. They know each other and can take care of themselves.

People at Amir, Paid or Talk's level do not need anyone to defend them - they certainly have better communications (and spin) skills than most of us. They know how to handle each other's spins.

In reality, it's the AVS member question posts that should be screened. I think all member questions/responses should be approved by moderators before they show up on the Insider thread. That would keep the decorum while allowing for the flow of useful information.

(Sorry, moderators. I know this is asking for a LOT!)

This endless rule changing is pointless and I am sure is pretty bewildering to most of us. The BDA insiders bailed because frankly they found themselves in a situation where many of their favorite positons were pretty much indefensible in a free an open dialogue enviroment. I don't blame them for effectively putting tail between legs and taking off. I don't envy them having to follow up and defend the kind of foolish PR coming out of the BDA leadership thsese days.. The recent 63% stand alone market share claims being only one example.

I was stunned a few days ago, it was amazing what you can learn in an open envirnoment, it was both educational and entertaining when forum rules opened up, and amrim was not effectively gagged. Sad that the BDA insiders started scurrying away when the light got turned on.

I don't know what AVS management is trying to accomplish here but it seems pretty rudderless, with all this back and forth, and the seemingly hourly changes to the rules. It almost seems like they can't decide if it is better to keep amrim gagged, and the BDA insiders protected here from dealing with the truth or what?

The fact that these BD Insiders don't reveal their names, but MS troopers do is enough for me.. If you can't put your name beside what you calim, you either don't believe in what your saying, or you want to have your pr spin cake and eat it too. Run off to bluray.com... if you must, but good grief if that is what the AVS mods fear, then there is a serious lack of courage around here. Do the mods really need to turn AVS into a mirror of bluray.com just to keep BD insiders? If that is what it takes to keep then I say let them go.

Give us open dialog, the moderators should know when someone is clearly out of line. Several of the mods have been doing this for a long time. They should be able to manage the extreme exceptions... come on guys you want viewership, it does not have to be a circus, but AVS threads do need to have useful content, and amirm with a gag on won't give us any in an insiders forum.

So, when we were given a chart that shows BD has 63% of the player sales in the Euro market we are just to accept that and not ask any questions? The chart did not tell us what criteria was used to determine this number. After questioning, Talk told us it was based on dollars spent on players. Since BD players cost nearly double, that chart was very misleading.Some numbers for players sold in europe can be found here (http://www.cinemotion.biz/informacion.php?iinfo=285). I can't vouch for the accuracy of these numbers, but if accurate, they're pretty interesting.
This is the AV Science forum. Not the speculation forum. If an insider wants to post blatantly incorrect information (like a BD costing $100) then they must back it up with proof. Something that their peers can review and agree upon.Well, let's look at it scientifically then. We'll use Paidgeeks numbers of 80%, and the other mentioned numbers of 40% and 10%.
We heard yields of 90-95% for HD DVD, and a pacificdisc price of $1.29 (for SL-15) in quantites of 100K. I'll use that as a base and give numbers for both the high and the low.

BD cycle times are close to double that of HD, that's easily verifiable, and it's related to the fact that the substrate is twice the thickness (and thus takes longer to cool)
I'm a physics major, so I'm going to do what Physics folks do, and reduce the complexity:
ASSUMPTION: A manufacturer would like to make the same amount from a day's work on a BD line as a HD line.
ASSUMPTION: Material costs of the substrate are insignificant (I've seen numbers around 0.03 per disc)

So, double the cycle time, double the cost = $2.58
Now take 80% yields, which is 88% of the 90% number, or 84% of the 95% number, so a price range of $2.93 to $3.07
At 40% yields, we get $5.81 to $6.13
At 10% yields, we get $23.24 to $24.57

Note that this is not the "real world" price of the discs, the real world price is essentially the materials cost (of probably 0.03 to 0.10). That's why, if you have a line that would otherwise be idle, and you're paying your techs etc anyway, then low yields and high cycle times are not a problem, since you couldn't do anything else with that time anyway. They only become a problem when production ramps up and you have to start adding infrastructure because you can't meet demand with the lines you already have. I have no idea when that point would be reached. Also, if BD lines cost 10x the cost of a HD line, then that would have to be taken into account as well (Theoretically, a manufacturer would want to charge 10x the "equipment wear and tear" amount per disc, so as to recoup capital costs - you could argue this would be spread over a number of years, but the HD line cost is spread over the same timeframe, so it's still a valid observation.)

I have no insider knowledge of the accuracy of any of these numbers, they're just mathematical extrapolations based on known factors, and using the numbers given by various insiders. Even using the best case numbers, mathematically, the cost of a BD-50 should be around double the cost of a HD-30 ($1.45 at pacificdisc)

I don't know about Amir's numbers, but I'm just a lowly digger in the trenches, so he definately knows things I don't :)

Bkilian, those numbers are interesting. Thanks.

In light of the new rules, I don't see how I can address follow ups regarding my comment on "proper" BD disc pricing. If Mods like to relax the rules temporarily, I will address it. Otherwise, I suggest folks read every word I said carefully. Some of the answer is there if you squint hard enough :).

Thank you for recognizing their are rules and you are trying to obey them! :)
Of course you are not telling people to read between the lines. :D

The most recent rule change was flowed down to us moderators: the initial rule was unworkable and was appealed and relaxed significantly

I ask Insider's and members alike to abide by it

Thank you

While I think that's a reasonable extrapolation of costs with some caveats (since there's so many other factors, least of all that cycle time isn't the only difference between the two), the one glaring assumption is that the price = cost to produce. There's also a profit factor involved, and the age-old supply and demand factor that affects the price in addition to costs.

I'd also be very interested in knowing exactly how large a role stamping costs plays in production of next generation media. How does it compare to all the other costs involved, and what's the break even point?

Come on, quit whining.


Comments like this are un-necessary.

Mark,

You say these rule changes were from above. How typical is it for the owners to enforce rules on forums, and was there any pressure from some companies to make changes. For example, did some companies threaten to withdraw ad revenue?

Thanks.

Then as a consumer/enthusiast who is concerned with the allocation of your entertainment dollars, you want to invest those dollars into the technology that has the best chance of winning this format war and you should factor in all relevant data in making such an assessment.

I am afraid that weather or not you want to admit it, these yield issues that you say are irrelevant will matter quite a lot in the outcome of this format war, and the fate of your entertainment dollar (since that is what matters to you.)

And there have been others to back up claims of low yields, and the BDA's complete silence on the numbers should really tell you everything you need to know.

I've made my investment to this point (HD DVD), and I never said that concerns about mass sustainability was not a part of my decision. My criticism was of the rabid partisan unfounded responses that had derailed the insiders thread. I was really just using it as an example of the kinds of discussion that bring down the quality of the thread.

IMO, if there are problems with BD replication, more studios will defect. Paramount was one, and based on what I have been able to ascertain, BD technology likely had something to do with it. If it's a problem, it will come to light. If it's not, then there's no point to the discussion.

It seems to me that many of these discussion topics become little more than witch hunts. I "learned" absolutely nothing from the back and forth tit for tat that was going on.

Mark,

You say these rule changes were from above. How typical is it for the owners to enforce rules on forums, and was there any pressure from some companies to make changes. For example, did some companies threaten to withdraw ad revenue?

Thanks.

It happens from time to time: it is their forum and they set the rules

I do not know the details: I try to stay away from any sponsor issues

Some numbers for players sold in europe can be found here (http://www.cinemotion.biz/informacion.php?iinfo=285). I can't vouch for the accuracy of these numbers, but if accurate, they're pretty interesting.

That's a very interesting table. It basically points out three winners in Europe, the E1, XE1, and BD-P1000. Fancy that, the "lowly" Samsung BD-P1000 is the clear cut BR winner :)! I can't help but imagine price has something to do with that :)!

Comments like this are un-necessary.
Geez, it's 12 hours later and you're still beating this drum? Well, I'm not playing along anymore. ;)

This endless rule changing is pointless and I am sure is pretty bewildering to most of us. The BDA insiders bailed because frankly they found themselves in a situation where many of their favorite positons were pretty much indefensible in a free an open dialogue enviroment. I don't blame them for effectively putting tail between legs and taking off. I don't envy them having to follow up and defend the kind of foolish PR coming out of the BDA leadership thsese days.. The recent 63% stand alone market share claims being only one example.

I was stunned a few days ago, it was amazing what you can learn in an open envirnoment, it was both educational and entertaining when forum rules opened up, and amrim was not effectively gagged. Sad that the BDA insiders started scurrying away when the light got turned on.

I don't know what AVS management is trying to accomplish here but it seems pretty rudderless, with all this back and forth, and the seemingly hourly changes to the rules. It almost seems like they can't decide if it is better to keep amrim gagged, and the BDA insiders protected here from dealing with the truth or what?

The fact that these BD Insiders don't reveal their names, but MS troopers do is enough for me.. If you can't put your name beside what you calim, you either don't believe in what your saying, or you want to have your pr spin cake and eat it too. Run off to bluray.com... if you must, but good grief if that is what the AVS mods fear, then there is a serious lack of courage around here. Do the mods really need to turn AVS into a mirror of bluray.com just to keep BD insiders? If that is what it takes to keep then I say let them go.

Give us open dialog, the moderators should know when someone is clearly out of line. Several of the mods have been doing this for a long time. They should be able to manage the extreme exceptions... come on guys you want viewership, it does not have to be a circus, but AVS threads do need to have useful content, and amirm with a gag on won't give us any in an insiders forum.

Saved me the effort, +1

Amir,

Upto to $200 true cost of bd50 seems a little ott:eek: How do you arrive at such a high figure?

Regards

John.

I believe he said the "should sell for $200", not that his figure was their cost.

If a $0.25 cost-to-produce disck sells for $20, then a $2.50 cost disc might sell for $200.

This ignores the other components in the mix to be sure, but I think it was simply to illustrate the wide chasm in the base cost to produce them vs other media with much better yields.

Why are yield numbers important to the end user? The bottom line is what users pay for the disk. If Sony wants to subsidize the disk costs until the cost comes down it's their business decision. Toshiba I believe is subsidizing the cost of the HD-DVD players they produce and they are doing it as a business decision to gain market share. Microsoft and Sony are subsidizing the cost of their games systems to gain market share.

The bottom line is the consumer benifits from the compitition.

Why aren't HD-DVD supporters complaining about Amir's refusal to answer the question about combo yield rates? Why the double standard?

Sad that the BDA insiders started scurrying away when the light got turned on.Saved me the effort, +1Why would BD insiders want to post at a forum where the mods allow the members to describe them as cockroach-like?

The most recent rule change was flowed down to us moderators: the initial rule was unworkable and was appealed and relaxed significantly

I ask Insider's and members alike to abide by it

Thank you

EDIT: Nevermind, already addressed above.

Is it my imagination or did we lose the BD50 yield thread in this forum?

Why aren't HD-DVD supporters complaining about Amir's refusal to answer the question about combo yield rates? Why the double standard?

Why would BD insiders want to post at a forum where the mods allow the members to describe them as cockroach-like?

And why do HD DVD insiders want to post at a forum where the mods allow members to describe them as liars [repeatedly] and call for their banning [repeatedly] ?

Oh, wait ... :rolleyes:

By your own logic, Amir lied about "science fiction" and should be banned.
Now, using your same logic, Paidgeek lied about Profile 1.0 players being released within a month of the new mandatory spec. And about HD PiP (For the record, I dont think he lied, I really believe he wasn't aware).
Again, using your same logic, Talk lied about HD PiP as well as the dates for Mandatory profile slipping.

Ban them all I guess, right? :rolleyes:

You need to quit while you're way behind. It's this type of trollish argument that gets threads closed -- or is that what you're trying to accomplish? It seems that some of the BDA supporters are more inclined to keep the lines of communication closed than open -- why is that?

Furthermore, Amir gave inference as to the combo yield rates. But let's take that out of the mix if you want and say they are horrid -- just for the sake of argument. Let's compare that 'horrid' yield to the yield for Blu-ray Combo discs. Let's see, "horrid yield" versus "doesn't exist". Hmmmm. I wonder which of the two is more viable? Now, I don't for a second think that combo disc yields are horrid, though I do think that they are more costly to replicate that an HD30 (duh). But since it's a .6mm substrate, same as DVD18, and we're just applying a DVD9 on one side (just like DVD18), and that process has been around and available for a great many years ... I'm guessing it's pretty similar in yield to that -- and they've produced multi-million sellers. Has BD50 done the same? Nope, not even close.

Look, the fact is simple: The BDA comes out and toots their own horn at every opportunity ... even when they need to spin the facts to do so (ie: 63% market share in revenue :rolleyes:). If yields were 80%+ on BD50 lines, why wouldn't they just come out and tell everyone how good they were at replicating the media? They have no issue coming out and telling everyone how good they are about other things -- even when they're not. So why is this such an issue for them? Oh, wait, maybe because it's too easy to verify? Hmmm. I wonder.

For the record, I think the mods here do a wonderful job with what they have to work with. It's unfortunate that most of the moderators here have been recommended for the 'hit list' on that "other forum".

Geez, it's 12 hours later and you're still beating this drum? Well, I'm not playing along anymore. ;)

1) I was hosting a BBQ party yesterday. Forgive me for not having had opoortunity to see every post within a few hours of it's being posted.

2) That was my first comment on the issue, so I wasn't STILL beating anything.

3) It was, and remains, an inappropriate comment. Especially after you called for civility in posts. You seem to have been giving orders here recently. It's not your place.

Perhaps rather than simply dismissing it, when several people have commented on it, you should consider apologizing.

Why are yield numbers important to the end user? The bottom line is what users pay for the disk. If Sony wants to subsidize the disk costs until the cost comes down it's their business decision. Toshiba I believe is subsidizing the cost of the HD-DVD players they produce and they are doing it as a business decision to gain market share. Microsoft and Sony are subsidizing the cost of their games systems to gain market share.

The bottom line is the consumer benifits from the compitition.

They're not, unless they go away before the manufacture cost can be driven down.

Hardware cost reduction is reasonably well understood, and the console makers may subsidize the first year or two of what they see as a 6 year lifetime. Or they may opt to always sub the HW, and make it up in software sales.

However, if you are LOSING money on software sales, then you either have to make it up in hardware prices... or stop subbing the software so as to stop bleeding cash. If your attempts at process improvement haven't driven the prices down, then guess who gets saddled with higher disc prices?

Why aren't HD-DVD supporters complaining about Amir's refusal to answer the question about combo yield rates? Why the double standard?

Why would BD insiders want to post at a forum where the mods allow the members to describe them as cockroach-like?

Have you visited blu-ray.com? The insiders over there are ignorant, the generalize ALL HD DVD owners like they are stupid, if they are gonna dish out crap like that, they should expect something back. Total bush league are there part.

Have you visited blu-ray.com? The insiders over there are ignorant, the generalize ALL HD DVD owners like they are stupid, if they are gonna dish out crap like that, they should expect something back. Total bush league are there part.
He sounds like he's from there

From everything I've seen it is likely BD50 does currently have yield problems affecting price/availability of manufactured BD50 discs. And Sony likely is subsidizing this right now to make things look better for the moment.

So, why do I care?

Because if BD were to win the format war tomorrow Sony would have less incentive to continue those subsidies. And if only BD discs were being sold and the price/availability of BD50's were out of line then studios would have a strong economic incentive to use BD25. This combined with multiple tracks of lossless audio and extras would make for a very unhappy situation.

So my continued format-neutralness depends upon my expectation of Sony being both willing and able to continue those subsidies as long as needed. And to me that means questions answered and information updates shared.

In other words, I don't at all mind Sony subsidizing the BD50's. But I would like to be able to assess the probability they might stop doing so at the wrong moment.

- Tom

From everything I've seen...You haven't "seen" anything! Just completely unsubstantiated comments with absolutely no evidence provided.

Do you also care about combo yields? Or combo return rates? Or how much it would cost to make TL51 discs? Doesn't the fact that Amir refuses to answer these questions cause concern for you? He just stated:

The yield for combos are somewhat lower due to extra process steps. They are also more expensive because of the additional processing . I can't provide specific information here unfortunately.So for the love of God, will you guys please stop hounding the BD side for information that the HD-DVD side also refuses to release?

You haven't "seen" anything! Just completely unsubstantiated comments with absolutely no evidence provided.

Do you also care about combo yields? Or combo return rates? Or how much it would cost to make TL51 discs? Doesn't the fact that Amir refuses to answer these questions cause concern for you? He just stated:

So for the love of God, will you guys please stop hounding the BD side for information that the HD-DVD side also refuses to release?
After all the insults you've hurled at him I wouldn't give you the time of day.

IMHO, the debate about the costs of BD50 was starting to hit some nerves. Amir and Dave were starting to peel the onion. FUD can be disproved with facts. Facts cannot be disproved at all. When you know that the facts are not on your side, you shut down debate. Corporations are eager to disclose good news about their product, but they are quick to suppress bad news about their product. If mass production of BD is uneconomical at this time, that would amount to a very "inconvenient truth" for defenders of that format. It would mean that replacement of DVD by that format would be many years and many investment dollars away. I think there are ways of talking about another side's format which are civil, reasonable, and based on hard facts. If certain insiders are unwilling or unable to provide facts to support their own or refute their opponents' positions, then I believe that further format debate among insiders is pointless. But I have to ask, why are some insiders more secretive than others? Is it non-disclosure in general or is it non-disclosure of unfavorable facts? I think that AVS members as well as the public at large have the right to information which will materially impact their decision to purchase one format or the other. Two issues for BD that need to see the light of day are BD50 manufacturing costs and BD Profile implementation. Two issues for HD DVD that need to see the light of day are hardware manufacturing capacity to meet demand (players should not be "sold out" during promotions) and long-term expectations about the likelihood of HD30 adapting to more demanding video and audio standards.

Glad to see the new rules. Certain insiders disparaging the other format were ruining the purpose of these threads IMO.

Finally, I'm motivated enough to activate my ignore list!

Cheers,

Grant

IMHO, the debate about the costs of BD50 was starting to hit some nerves. Amir and Dave were starting to peel the onion. FUD can be disproved with facts.Not when those facts are proprietary information that can't be released for perfectly good reasons (not giving competing fabrication companies information about your efficiencies). Amir knows that info can't be released, and he refuses to release that same information from his own side. The burden is on Amir to provide the evidence, since he is the one making the claim.

You haven't "seen" anything! Just completely unsubstantiated comments with absolutely no evidence provided.


Untrue, Dave, an Insider, has given us yield numbers. Apparently, you're just ignoring that data though since it obviously goes against your agenda.


Do you also care about combo yields? Or combo return rates? Or how much it would cost to make TL51 discs? Doesn't the fact that Amir refuses to answer these questions cause concern for you? He just stated:


Amir has told us that studios aren't showing a high return rate for combos, so that answers that question.

You're questioning Combo's to deflect the fact the BD side doesn't want to answer their yield issues. Combo yields have been hinted at, but you are correct in that I haven't seen any real tangible information on that. Let's go ahead and compare apples to apples though. We're asking for yields on DL Blu-ray compared to DL HD DVD. That's a pretty fair assessment imo. You want to know yields on HD DVD Combo discs -- for the sole purpose of deflection, imo -- but let's just assume they are low. Let's compare that to Blu-ray Combo Discs -- oh, wait, they don't exist, so their yield is 0%. I guess that means that HD DVD has Blu-ray beat when it comes to DL replication *and* combo replication. No matter how you slice it, HD DVD replication is more efficient I guess. :p


So for the love of God, will you guys please stop hounding the BD side for information that the HD-DVD side also refuses to release?

Fine, I wont ask about Blu-ray Combo yields anymore. But, since we apparently have some information on DL HD DVD yields, I'd like to get some information on DL Blu-ray yields. Fair is fair, no?

Not when those facts are proprietary information that can't be released for perfectly good reasons (not giving competing fabrication companies information about your efficiencies). Amir knows that info can't be released, and he refuses to release that same information from his own side. The burden is on Amir to provide the evidence, since he is the one making the claim.

The burden is on both sides to provide evidence for their positions or stop debating altogether, which I think is what has effectively happened. Claims and counter-claims are pretty useless. Insiders on both sides have made claims without verification. The problem is that potential purchasers want every scrap of real information they can get their hands on. That's why people ask questions and hope to get honest answers. Perhaps non-disclosure agreements doomed the insider discussion at the very beginning. For example, it would be very nice to get an insider from Toshiba, however unlikely that might be due to corporate secrecy. But, without facts, I can't see how the insiders' forum shouldn't be discontinued altogether. It isn't good for the insiders either, insofar as they can err by letting their emotions get the best of them and then, lacking usual self-control, state something they know, but which they ought not to say. They can't send every draft of every post back to corporate for approval.

Since no one is going to tell us very much at this time, we ought to just sit back and see how events play out. Facts have a way of breaking through the fog of PR eventually. Maybe after CEDIA some things will become clearer, and we will have less need for insiders to satisfy our hunger for information.

Not when those facts are proprietary information that can't be released for perfectly good reasons (not giving competing fabrication companies information about your efficiencies). Amir knows that info can't be released, and he refuses to release that same information from his own side. The burden is on Amir to provide the evidence, since he is the one making the claim.

Untrue, you keep asking about Combo yields for HD DVD. imo, whatever those yields are, they are STILL BETTER than Blu-ray Combo yields. They are, whether you like it or not, HD DVD is more efficient economically.

Let's look at the bullet points:

(1) BD takes longer to cool, so cycle times are LONGER than HD DVD.
(2) BD25 costs MORE to replicate than HD30
(3) Best case, BD25 costs the SAME as HD30 in volume.

Winner: HD DVD, costs less, you get more, and you get it faster.

Now, let's look at the following:

(1) BD still takes longer to cool, so cycle times are still LONGER than HD DVD.
(2) BD50 costs MORE to replicate than HD30 (assumption based on BD25 cost)

Here is what we don't know: How much more does BD50 cost? If it's more than or equal to 2x the cost, then HD30 is still CHEAPER. Why? because 2xHD30 = 60GB versus the same price for 50GB. Nevermind the rumors that they can't fill a 50GB disc to maximum because it lowers yields significantly. Now, couple that with the likelihood that you can produce (2) HD30's in the same time it takes to produce (1) BD50 based on cycle times and it is clear who has the advantage: HD DVD.

Now, let's look at your argument:

"Why don't we know HD DVD Combo Yields?". Let's analyze that for a moment:

(1) HD DVD Combos exist ... Warner stamped quite a few selling copies of 300.
(2) Amir has told us that the return rate to Studios is very low. So low, in fact, they haven't been able to create a decent sample size to qualify any production issues.
(3) Blu-ray Combo's do not exist. Their yield is essentially 0%.

Winner: Clearly HD DVD. They can produce them, and Blu-ray cannot. No matter what the yields are, HD DVD is more efficient.

Sooo ... in all cases, HD DVD is more inexpensive to produce and can be done so more quickly.

The big missing question is actual yields for BD50. An Insider gave us information on that -- but it's not what anyone with Blue Glasses wanted to hear ... so suddenly, you deflected this towards HD DVD Combo replication yields. *shrug*

Do you know of/frequent any place where there are CPU/chipset folks answering questions like on AVS? I definitely have some questions but even though you are an Intel insider, AVS probably isn't the best place to talk ask questions about chipsets :D

I'd try

http://softwarecommunity.intel.com/isn/Community/en%2DUS/Forums/

I hang there, and so do people much more expert than I.

Untrue, Dave, an Insider, has given us yield numbers. Apparently, you're just ignoring that data though since it obviously goes against your agenda.


No sources provided and completely unsubstantiated.

[ NB excerpted by The Cap'n]

This endless rule changing is pointless [ NB or not? The Cap'n ] and I am sure is pretty bewildering to most of us.

I was stunned a few days ago, it was amazing what you can learn in an open envirnoment, it was both educational and entertaining when forum rules opened up, and amrim was not effectively gagged.

I don't know what AVS management is trying to accomplish here but it seems pretty rudderless, with all this back and forth, and the seemingly hourly changes to the rules. It almost seems like they can't decide if it is better to keep amrim gagged, and the BDA insiders protected here from dealing with the truth or what?

The fact that these BD Insiders don't reveal their names, but MS troopers do is enough for me.. If you can't put your name beside what you calim, you either don't believe in what your saying, or you want to have your pr spin cake and eat it too.

Do the mods really need to turn AVS into a mirror of bluray.com just to keep BD insiders? If that is what it takes to keep then I say let them go.

Give us open dialog, the moderators should know when someone is clearly out of line. Several of the mods have been doing this for a long time. They should be able to manage the extreme exceptions... come on guys you want viewership, it does not have to be a circus, but AVS threads do need to have useful content, and amirm with a gag on won't give us any in an insiders forum.

With sympathy for the Mods, I largely agree.

The key point being "open forum." This is difficult but it is the goal.

"AMIRM" and "PAIDGEEK" and "TALKSTR8T" are big boys and obviously
can handle themselves in a debate . . . so let them.

Alas, I fear this has become a repeat of the "CJPLAY" departure
and we are the worse for that one.

Hey, if it was easy everyone could do it, eh?

-30-

To those who are so quick to criticize: perhaps you want to volunteer for mod duty?

strictly a volunteer, unpaid position: no benefits,long hours, little love: contact the administrators ;)

It happens from time to time: it is their forum and they set the rules

I do not know the details: I try to stay away from any sponsor issues

OY!

So it has come to at least the suggestion of this.

MARK and DR DON; good luck . . . I feel your pain


-30-

But who is going to moderate the moderators then :D

But who is going to moderate the moderators then :D

well it seems like there are tens of thousands of members who let me know the minute I step out of line!

No sources provided and completely unsubstantiated.

So if insiders giving info is not a substantial enough source for you, what is? Why do some of you act like lawyers and this is somehow a court of law? Nobody needs to provide you "proof" of any claim made by an insider. If you find it hard to believe, don't believe it. It's not their job to provide you proof of everything they say.

I keep hearing the above mantra repeated over and over and over again like a broken record. Whenever a claim is made you, or others, don't like - by insiders, you repeat that line.

What exactly do you people want as sources? Something tells me that sources aren't going to be good enough unless they are excel spreadsheets straight off the marketing departments desk of a replicator. That's sad.

The only real proof and source you really need to see in order to believe the general claims about BD50 is Paramounts recent actions.

The only real proof and source you really need to see in order to believe the general claims about BD50 is Paramounts recent actions.Well good for you. The problem comes when you demand everyone else to believe the same thing. I do not accept that person as a legitimate insider on that issue.

And Paramount was paid big $$$, so I'm free to believe what I wish about that. No amount of supposed HD-DVD cost benefit explains the pulling of already manufactured product half-way out the door!

Whenever an owner steps in on forums such as these and demands a change in rules, we know the real reason people! $$$$$$ Whether it's threatening to withdraw ad dollars, or loss in site visits. Honestly, I think the owners could care less about this!

No amount of supposed HD-DVD cost benefit explains the pulling of already manufactured product half-way out the door!
That's straight from blu-ray.com. Where do you get that it was already manufactured? And if they did, why would they want to release product in a format they're going to compete with? Give it up - they are gone

To those who are so quick to criticize: perhaps you want to volunteer for mod duty?

strictly a volunteer, unpaid position: no benefits,long hours, little love: contact the administrators ;)

Hi Mark,

As I have stated in posting 238 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11502669&postcount=238), I greatly appreciate the efforts and the position that the moderators have been put in, and from what I'm reading other do as well. However, surely you know the criticism you are hearing is constructive criticism because we truly care about maintaining the level of excellence of this unique forum and preventing it from morphing into just another one of the countless fanboy web sites.

Please take off your moderator's hat for a second and put on your AV enthusiast hat and answer a few quick questions. (I'm not asking you to reply in public, just truthfully answer these questions for yourself.)

As an avid AV enthusiast don't you want open discourse from Industry experts, or would you prefer the vacuum of information be filled by claims of rabid format fans?

As an enthusiast wouldn't you prefer open discourse from Industry experts even if it meant higher levels of moderator involvement?

If you feel as we do, and I strongly suspect you do, put the enthusiast case to the forum owners.

Thanks for all the work you and the other moderators have selflessly donated to the cause.

Larry

No sources provided and completely unsubstantiated.


Brian,

I would love to provide my sources, but they fear for their jobs if this information got out and was traced back to them. Especially my source with a BD only studio. He came to me, not the other way around, because he felt I could be trusted. I verified who he was before I went on the record with anything that he said. He also substantiated information that I had heard earlier in the year, but wasn't able to confirm with a second source until he came along. Is there a chance that both sources are lying to me....sure, there is always a chance. Is it likely? No, I don't think it is.

One thing that people are failing to realize, as of right now, September 3, BD50 yields don't mean anything. But in the future, they will mean something because as more and more discs start to sell in quantities like 300 sold, actual costs are going to matter because hundreds of thousands of discs are being pressed. When you are only pressing 10,000 of them, it is a drop in the bucket. But take that number and multiply it by a factor of 10 or 100, or even better, 1,000 for wide adoption. Now it starts to make a difference because low yields means you won't be able to keep up with demand, you need more manufacturing lines (which cost money), and costs will surely rise. Do you think the studio's are going to eat these costs? Not likely. You will see them either raise the prices or limit their releases to ones that they know will sell.

Once again, I don't give a damn who wins this thing in the end...I just want to have HD media to enjoy in my home. After watching so many HD DVD's and BD's over the past 16 months, it hurts me to "have" to watch a DVD now...even my wife notices the quality difference (and that's saying something!). I own both formats, which I bought with my own money at retail stores. I haven't utilized any industry discounts that I am able to get direct from the manufacturers because I wanted to stay unbiased throughout this process.

As for the format war itself, the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement shocked the BDA in a big way. Their whole effort this past year has been to squash their competitor to get them out of the market ASAP for many reasons. First, they didn't want the competition. Why? The CE manufacturers on their side wanted to have a very good ROI on BD players and not turn them into a commodity product like DVD has become where low prices rule the day. They don't make money in this method, nor can they compete with low cost players out of China (DVD model). This is how most of the public buys players, not those of us who frequent the HT forums.

Second, without Toshiba around and the HD DVD format, there would be much less pressure to deliver the goods "now" instead of later. Blu-ray launched much earlier than they really wanted to, but market conditions dictated that they launch when they did because if they had waited they would have been so far behind that they wouldn't have been able to catch up. Even now, they are behind in player adoption and are having to use misleading statistics to portray themselves to have wider adoption. But, when you throw in the PS3, they have more potential players but their adoption rates per potential player in the marketplace is quite low compared to HD DVD.

Lastly, with HD DVD out of the way, I doubt you would see player prices dropping as fast as they have been. They would level out in order to increase their profits on a new technology that has cost them a ton of money in R&D. But with HD DVD in the game, this can't happen because Toshiba is pushing the issue on player prices.

Even with all this being said, I still feel BD has the advantage. First of all, they have the software sales edge. Second, the low yields are problematic, but not the end of the world in the short term. Sony is doing everything they can to help the independent replicators increase their yields. If they can get these up to acceptable levels on BD50's, you can bet there will be independent verification of this and their PR machine will be working overtime letting the world know about it. And lastly, they still have more studio's behind them, most notably, Disney. Without them, I doubt there would be a BDA at this point.

Where does it go from here? Who knows. I don't think HD DVD is dead, even if the BDA is able to fix their "issues". Universal is 100% behind HD DVD and it looks like Paramount/Dreamworks is as well. Warner is releasing on both formats, but due to player issues (profiles) they lean a bit towards HD DVD with their releases, but they will show their neutrality once the BD players are able to meet the interactive demands that HD DVD offers.

In the end though, I think both survive and Universal players will rule the day, but we won't see mass adoption of either format. Even if there was only one format, I doubt we would see mass adoption like DVD.

Well good for you. The problem comes when you demand everyone else to believe the same thing. I do not accept that person as a legitimate insider on that issue.
The CEO of Paramount has said as much in interviews if you read between the lines.

The insiders come here to answer our questions. Their job is not to present a case, and file articles of evidence for you to examine for every claim they make. If that's what you want, put the insiders on ignore or stop coming here.

And Paramount was paid big $$$, so I'm free to believe what I wish about that.
So was Disney. So was Fox. And so was Paramount, by the BDA. All a year ago. So where was the disgusted sceptic lines of questioning then?

No amount of supposed HD-DVD cost benefit explains the pulling of already manufactured product half-way out the door!
The claim of a cash payout was refuted by everyone except the BDA.

Toshiba and Paramount admitted that manufacturing and marketing incentives were part of the deal, which most likely had a dollar amount attached by someone along the line.

The explanation for pulling half finished product is quite simple, again, if you read between the lines of interviews with Paramount. The BDA, for whatever reason, pulled the subsidy and manufacture benefits, which was the only reason Paramount was releasing on blu-ray.

Paramount simply said "Oh you mean your media will now cost us real money manufacture? BD50 has what price tag? Screw that. Bye guys!" Then they went to Toshiba and said "hey umm.... We really don't see enough revenue in this silly market to pay what Sony wants us to for making BD50's, do you want to give us a reason to dump BD?"

There really is no reason to think it was anything more complicated or clandestine than that.

Again, if you want more sources and facts - Good luck. Your about as likely to get them as you are the real reasons Fox and Disney are BD exclusive.

No amount of supposed HD-DVD cost benefit explains the pulling of already manufactured product half-way out the door!

You are correct, but if the HD DVD Promotional Group "bought" all of these discs to stop them from hitting the marketplace as part of the "concessions" for going with HD DVD exclusively, then from a business perspective, it is a huge coup for HD DVD. How many people will buy HD DVD players now to watch Paramount/Dreamworks movies? You may not like it, but from a business and PR perspective, it is huge to have an "exclusive" title.

No sources provided and completely unsubstantiated.

He's an insider, he is the source. :rolleyes:

I have no clue why this forum dubbed you as an insider. No information has been given to us why that is (that we can judge). I do not accept you as an insider.

Well I do!!!!

That's straight from blu-ray.com. Where do you get that it was already manufactured? And if they did, why would they want to release product in a format they're going to compete with? Give it up - they are gone

At least a couple have surfaced. It's pretty clear that it was, in fact, manufactured.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=898162&page=5

Ugh. We BD supporters keep encountering people who state neutrality then go on to spill a whole boat load of HD-DVD talking points! Enough already.

Which talking points are you referring to? I haven't received any from anyone...maybe they were lost in the mail? ;)


I have no clue why this forum dubbed you as an insider. No information has been given to us why that is (that we can judge). I do not accept you as an insider.

I was asked by Mark to be an insider. I replied to him that I didn't think it was appropriate since I don't work for either side since I was technically a member of the press. He replied back to me that he felt it was appropriate based upon the information that I provided thus far to AVS.

Not one person from the BDA has refuted what I have said, not one. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your business.

As for my neutrality, ask Kevin Collins that hard line of questioning I have given him over the past year or the Toshiba employee's that were giving "demo's" of HD DVD before the product launch. They will confirm that I haven't thrown them softballs with my questions.

Read some of my software reviews at HTS of Universal titles that questioned their QC. Read my review of Blood Diamond on both BD and HD DVD which questioned the VC-1 encoding and bitrate of the title as a possible compromise to fit on HD DVD? Oh wait, you think I am biased so I would never write anything bad about HD DVD, would I? Here is the link to the Blood Diamond HD DVD review to save you some time: http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/137710/

And here is a quote from my review of Universals "In Good Company" on HD DVD in regard to the video quality:

While this generally is a very good looking HD DVD with excellent color reproduction, fine detail and black levels. But I am getting quite tired of the excessive edge enhancement in Universal’s releases lately. Once again, the image takes on a rather “fake” appearance with some added processing to the image. Characters in the foreground almost look like they are doing blue screen work because of the halo’s that surround them. And these are in normal lighting conditions on interior shots, not extra bright exterior scenes, which is more of the norm.

Once again, I plea with Universal to please go back and look at the masters before releasing the catalog titles. If a new master needs to be struck in order to release a “5 paw” video presentation, then please do so. If this slows down your release schedule, then so be it. I’ll take quality over quantity any day.

http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/138012/

My question to you is. How many studio contacts do you have that you can talk to on the phone when you have a question? How many contacts do you have with manufacturers that you can talk to? I have built these relationships over the past few years and have earned some trust and respect with some "insiders" who don't frequent these forums, but I forward them information that I feel they should know about their customers and how they feel.

What information that I have provided has proven to be false? Everything that I have ever posted here or over at HTS is attached to my NAME! Can others say the same? You may not like what information that I provide because it doesn't fit into your conception of "the truth as you see it", but I have verified it through 2 independent sources and I stand by what I have said. If 30 days from now I am told that yields are much higher, I will report that in this thread for all to see. Unlike you, I have no agenda here to promote one side or the other...I own both.

He's an insider, he is the source. :rolleyes:

I don't see how he can be the source since all he can do is relay what he hears from others. Most people consider that hearsay, but whatever.

Well I do!!!!

Thanks :)

Thanks :)

Dave; It must be very frustrating for you to deal with some comments. Some people just like to hear "good news" about whatever they believe in and anything against their beliefs is considered false!
I want to thank you for dealing with these (rude) comments and for giving us some excellent inside information.
cheers,

Dave; It must be very frustrating for you to deal with some comments. Some people just like to hear "good news" about whatever they believe in and anything against their beliefs is considered false!
I want to thank you for dealing with these (rude) comments and for giving us some excellent inside information.
cheers,

Thanks.

Dave Vaughn is every bit as much an insider as Beatboy77 is.

Seriously, what is the difference between their job descriptions?

I wouldnt accept Beatboy77 as an official insider.

To those who are so quick to criticize: perhaps you want to volunteer for mod duty?

strictly a volunteer, unpaid position: no benefits,long hours, little love: contact the administrators ;)

Does it come with a T-Shirt? :D

Dave; It must be very frustrating for you to deal with some comments. Some people just like to hear "good news" about whatever they believe in and anything against their beliefs is considered false!
I want to thank you for dealing with these (rude) comments and for giving us some excellent inside information.
cheers,

+1

I wouldnt accept Beatboy77 as an official insider.

Do you accept Dave? If so, why do you not accept one "reporter" who does not name his sources while accepting another?

Well good for you. The problem comes when you demand everyone else to believe the same thing. I do not accept that person as a legitimate insider on that issue.

You don't because it doesn't agree with your agenda. I find it Ironic that you accept less about more important issues when it does go along with your agenda.


And Paramount was paid big $$$, so I'm free to believe what I wish about that. No amount of supposed HD-DVD cost benefit explains the pulling of already manufactured product half-way out the door!

Oh really? I did not see you complain in the least with Fox pulled titles, some just DAYS before release citing 'technical reasons'.

Furthermore, I think it is safe to assume the Paramount Exclusivity Deal was in the works for some period of time, no? How do you know they even pressed the discs at all? Perhaps there was no Blu-ray release ever mastered! We don't know.

And that brings us full circle. Do we have any proof that Paramount had discs shipped to Amazon or other retailers for sale? Do we have proof that these discs were even replicated? Nope -- yet you seem to believe that right away. Now, an insider says something you don't like and you don't accept him as an insider.

Who do you 'accept' as an Insider? It seems only those that say what you want to hear. It's very trollish behavior and I, for one, wish you would just stop.

Dave,

Thank you very much for your contributions. It is a pleasure to read comments which are reasoned, balanced, and objective. Like any really good journalist, you are not satisfied until you have multiple sources for the information you report.

One thing that people are failing to realize, as of right now, September 3, BD50 yields don't mean anything. But in the future, they will mean something because as more and more discs start to sell in quantities like 300 sold, actual costs are going to matter because hundreds of thousands of discs are being pressed. When you are only pressing 10,000 of them, it is a drop in the bucket. But take that number and multiply it by a factor of 10 or 100, or even better, 1,000 for wide adoption. Now it starts to make a difference because low yields means you won't be able to keep up with demand, you need more manufacturing lines (which cost money), and costs will surely rise. Do you think the studio's are going to eat these costs? Not likely. You will see them either raise the prices or limit their releases to ones that they know will sell.

As for the format war itself, the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement shocked the BDA in a big way. Their whole effort this past year has been to squash their competitor to get them out of the market ASAP for many reasons. First, they didn't want the competition. Why? The CE manufacturers on their side wanted to have a very good ROI on BD players and not turn them into a commodity product like DVD has become where low prices rule the day. They don't make money in this method, nor can they compete with low cost players out of China (DVD model). This is how most of the public buys players, not those of us who frequent the HT forums.

Second, without Toshiba around and the HD DVD format, there would be much less pressure to deliver the goods "now" instead of later. Blu-ray launched much earlier than they really wanted to, but market conditions dictated that they launch when they did because if they had waited they would have been so far behind that they wouldn't have been able to catch up. Even now, they are behind in player adoption and are having to use misleading statistics to portray themselves to have wider adoption. But, when you throw in the PS3, they have more potential players but their adoption rates per potential player in the marketplace is quite low compared to HD DVD.

Lastly, with HD DVD out of the way, I doubt you would see player prices dropping as fast as they have been. They would level out in order to increase their profits on a new technology that has cost them a ton of money in R&D. But with HD DVD in the game, this can't happen because Toshiba is pushing the issue on player prices.

Even with all this being said, I still feel BD has the advantage. First of all, they have the software sales edge. Second, the low yields are problematic, but not the end of the world in the short term. Sony is doing everything they can to help the independent replicators increase their yields. If they can get these up to acceptable levels on BD50's, you can bet there will be independent verification of this and their PR machine will be working overtime letting the world know about it. And lastly, they still have more studio's behind them, most notably, Disney. Without them, I doubt there would be a BDA at this point.

Where does it go from here? Who knows. I don't think HD DVD is dead, even if the BDA is able to fix their "issues". Universal is 100% behind HD DVD and it looks like Paramount/Dreamworks is as well. Warner is releasing on both formats, but due to player issues (profiles) they lean a bit towards HD DVD with their releases, but they will show their neutrality once the BD players are able to meet the interactive demands that HD DVD offers.

In the end though, I think both survive and Universal players will rule the day, but we won't see mass adoption of either format. Even if there was only one format, I doubt we would see mass adoption like DVD.

Hi,

To Dave (and any other Insider: )

I tried asking the following question in the Master thread, but my posting was reduced to a single question without any background context for an insider to respond to. :o

Based on your comments the format war seems to hinge on timing. If HD disc adoption is slow enough BD50 low yields are probably a non-issue and they may be able to incrementally add capacity to eventually equal the current HD DVD advantage.

However, doesn't the HD DVD camp have it in their power to precipitate the rapid transition of DVD to HD production, in mass market volumes, by exclusively issuing Combo HD DVDs or Twin discs and phasing out the production of DVDs?

In your opinion what are the prerequisites that would be required to see this happen, sooner, i.e. before Blu-ray is prepared for mass production, rather than later when they are?


The defection of an other neutral or Blu-ray exclusive studio?
A significant improvement in the sales advantage of standalone players?
A significant improvement in the yield and reliability of Combo discs?
A significant improvement in the cost to produce Combo discs?


I envision a certain degree of temporary subsidization perhaps in which Toshiba partially defrays the costs and the participating studios temporarily accept a lower profit margin on Combos. (Obviously such a move would be motivated by the desire of most, if not all, of the studios to deal with a signal format.)

If I recall correctly, I believe Amir has previously hinted that this trump card could be played in perhaps a year or so.

Do you have insights to offer?

Thanks.

Larry

Furthermore, I think it is safe to assume the Paramount Exclusivity Deal was in the works for some period of time, no? How do you know they even pressed the discs at all? Perhaps there was no Blu-ray release ever mastered! We don't know.


Once again.. the discs were manufactured, and some have slipped out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=898162&page=5

Do you accept Dave? If so, why do you not accept one "reporter" who does not name his sources while accepting another?

I appreciate all info provided by the likes of Dave, Amir, beatboy, paid, talk, Penton-man - whoever. I take everything they all say framed in the context of their agendas.

However, I'd prefer to see actual insider status granted to those who are actually in the industries in question, and not those with contacts in the industry. Isn't that the crux of what being an insider means?

I appreciate all info provided by the likes of Dave, Amir, beatboy, paid, talk, Penton-man - whoever. I take everything they all say framed in the context of their agendas.

However, I'd prefer to see actual insider status granted to those who are actually in the industries in question, and not those with contacts in the industry. Isn't that the crux of what being an insider means?

Ok, so you don't really accept Dave either as a true insider.

It might be nice if there was another classification of "Industry Reporter" added to the mix.

Well I do!!!!

As so I ... it seems the only Insider's he accepts are the ones that tell him what he wants to hear on any given day. It's unfortunate, because I'm not entirely sure that there are BDA supporters that want him on their side.

I, for one, an *thrilled* he doesn't support HD DVD. ;)

At least a couple have surfaced. It's pretty clear that it was, in fact, manufactured.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=898162&page=5

They could just be sceeners ... :p

I don't see how he can be the source since all he can do is relay what he hears from others. Most people consider that hearsay, but whatever.

:rolleyes: ... he has his information, he posted it. Paidgeek and Talk didn't have first hand details of stuff because it was outside of what they were responsible for. They went and asked for the information and reported it here (and elsewhere). That's pretty much the same thing, and has been accepted. Again, it's when folks say things that they don't want to hear about, or know about, that the data is suddenly suspect. That's sad.

Hi,

To Dave (and any other Insider: )

However, doesn't the HD DVD camp have it in their power to precipitate the rapid transition of DVD to HD production, in mass market volumes, by exclusively issuing Combo HD DVDs or Twin discs and phasing out the production of DVDs?

Agreed, but I don't know the specific costs of doing this.

In your opinion what are the prerequisites that would be required to see this happen, sooner, i.e. before Blu-ray is prepared for mass production, rather than later when they are?


The defection of an other neutral or Blu-ray exclusive studio?

Let me start by saying this is my opinion only. As for a defection or a neutral studio. If Warner went either way (Blu or HD DVD), that side would most likely prevail. If Disney went neutral, there would be no winner in the format war and most likely and two formats would prevail. If Disney went HD DVD exclusive (which I put ZERO chance in happening), all bets are off!

A significant improvement in the sales advantage of standalone players?

This holiday season will be very interesting. More will be known after Wednesdays press conferences at CEDIA. A certain dual format player will be getting all of the attention.

A significant improvement in the yield and reliability of Combo discs?

When I have asked the studio's about the combo discs, I have gotten the same response that Amir has stated, they have gotten very few returns or complaints (with the exception of COM).

A significant improvement in the cost to produce Combo discs?

Without knowing actual costs, I can't comment.




I envision a certain degree of temporary subsidization perhaps in which Toshiba partially defrays the costs and the participating studios temporarily accept a lower profit margin on Combos. (Obviously such a move would be motivated by the desire of most, if not all, of the studios to deal with a signal format.)

If I recall correctly, I believe Amir has previously hinted that this trump card could be played in perhaps a year or so.

Do you have insights to offer?

Thanks.

Larry

I agree, if the HD DVD Promotional group wanted to send a message, then they should release Transformers on a HD DVD combo disc only...no DVD release at all. They would sell in excess of 5 million discs and it would be the #1 selling disc on both formats, in fact, it would surpass the total number of discs sold one either format combined! Will they do this? I doubt it for many reasons...mainly confusion at the retail level. But even if the subsidy cost $50 million, it would certainly send a message!

Once again.. the discs were manufactured, and some have slipped out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=898162&page=5

Thanks ... I hadn't caught up on the thread before reading the post. I guess the assumption that some of those incentives were to cover the costs of pressing those discs may have been close.

Has anyone stated how they managed to come across such things?

Dave Vaughn is every bit as much an insider as Beatboy77 is.

Seriously, what is the difference between their job descriptions?

Um, maybe the fact that beatboy has posted more bull$h!t on this forum than arguably any other poster with his inside info that is almost 100% wrong of never comes to fruition. I mean according to him Universal would be supporting bluray by now.

I don't think Dave has done that once. Every time you bluray guys hear something you don't like you get your panties in a bunch. What are you bitching about?

You have had 90% of the electronics sellers from day one pushing your format due to it's superiority even though they in reality have no clue about the formats or what they are selling and wouldn't know what VC1 or BD spec 1.1 was to save their lives. Most of them still think Paramount still makes bluray discs.

You have more BD player manufacturers to choose from. You have a greater base of player types to choose from be it 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and even have bragging rights to have purchased the more expensive player! Most of the bluray players you guys own play games like Guitar Hero 3. Awesome!!!

You have greater studio support at the present and still have Warner with those 4 mbps VC1 hddvd portovers that you gays loath that I read so much about in the threads. Don't let those negative comments get you Blu. Spiderman 1 and 2 are coming out soon with none of those silly extras you guys hate so much. A superbit BD with 50gb talking up nothing but picture and sound. Sweet!!!!

They could just be sceeners ... :p

Screeners weren't sent out for BoG on Blu-ray (at least to me or anyone else that I have contact with in the industry). Who's to say that someone didn't sell these on the black market from the fabrication house? How do you think prereleased DVD's end up on the steets of New York, Toronto, San Francisco, etc. way before street date?

Screeners weren't sent out for BoG on Blu-ray (at least to me or anyone else that I have contact with in the industry). Who's to say that someone didn't sell these on the black market from the fabrication house? How do you think prereleased DVD's end up on the steets of New York, Toronto, San Francisco, etc. way before street date?

Very good point, though my response quoted was more tongue in cheek, hence the :p. ;)

That said, I wonder how many were stamped? It certainly raises the possibility that some of those promotion incentives were to cover the costs of those discs. Either way, that some were actually replicated could be seen as very bad for the BDA. If they truly just trashed what they replicated, then it seems their statements for preferring HD DVD as it gets them to profitability faster hold a good amount of water. ;)

Um, maybe the fact that beatbot has posted more bull$h!t on this forum than arguably any other poster with his inside info that is almost 100% wrong of never comes to fruition. I mean according to him Universal would be supporting bluray by now.

I don't think Dave has done that once. Every time you bluray guys hear something you don't like you get your panties in a bunch. What are you bitching about?

You have had 90% of the electronics sellers from day one pushing your format due to it's superiority even though they in reality have no clue about the formats or what they are selling and wouldn't know what VC1 or BD spec 1.1 was to save their lives. Most of them still think Paramount still makes bluray discs.

You have more BD player manufacturers to choose from. You have a greater base of player types to choose from be it 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and even have bragging rights to have purchased the more expensive player! Most of the bluray players you guys own play games like Guitar Hero 3. Awesome!!!

You have greater studio support at the present and still have Warner with those 4 mbps VC1 hddvd portovers that you gays loath that I read so much about in the threads. Don't let those negative comments get you Blu. Spiderman 1 and 2 are coming out soon with none of those silly extras you guys hate so much. A superbit BD with 50gb talking up nothing but picture and sound. Sweet!!!!

It's my format? SWEET! When do I start getting my royalty checks?

Please answer my question:

Why should one reporter with anonymous sources be an insider while another with anonymous sources is not? It is a simple question, please do not evade it.

Dave just joined and recently started making predictions for products we should be seeing at CEDIA. The accuracy of his sources can be checked then.

As for Beatboy's latest proclamation, it does appear there is an article about the Toshiba/P/DW deal on CE Daily.

Now if beatboy turned down an invite, that is one thing. If he was never extended one, that is another.

I've been posting on AVS since 2002...so I didn't just join. And yes, after CEDIA, you will be able to confirm what I have been saying about players and how good my sources are.

Dave,

Is Andy Parsons from Pioneer still the spokesperson for the BDA? (I miss his comments!) I haven't heard from him in a while. Also, Pioneer has been quite absent from the BR train for a while.

They didn't happen to offend anyone in the BDA with some silly combo talk did they? :(

Dave,

Is Andy Parsons from Pioneer still the spokesperson for the BDA? (I miss his comments!) I haven't heard from him in a while. Also, Pioneer has been quite absent from the BR train for a while.

They didn't happen to offend anyone in the BDA with some silly combo talk did they? :(

Now I have to wonder if there is any correlation between this post and the one by Dave right above it. Hmm..

I want to thank Dave and Amir for their continued patronage. They have been a wealth of knowledge and have put up with a lot of absurd comments and insults to be here.

I am disappointed in AVS for their management of this topic. Saying that Amir and Dave cannot discuss BD yield rates despite the fact that it is a very pertinent topic with which they are clearly informed upon. I went back to see the BD50 yield thread and AVS has pulled it completely. I harbor no ill will to the moderators but the people making these decisions are essentially censoring discussion on what it likely to be the deciding factor in the HD war. This is very disheartening.

As for the BD folks that refuse to believe anything without named sources, I am floored by this attitude. Deepthroat was not named until 35 years later, when he was nearly on his death bed. Yet he was able to help bring down a president. The 150M that the NYT reported never had a name attributed to it. CERTAINLY, when we are dealing with information that will cause jobs to be lost, you cannot possibly think that ANY source is going to be named. CERTAINLY, no BD sources are named and the accuracy of some of those statements have proven to be quite lacking. Calling Beatboy and insider (I am still hoping this is a joke) is a sign of how disbelieving some BD fans can be.

I truly hope that meaningful discussion regarding the true costs of replication and infrastructure can be addressed here.

It is my belief that HD will win if it can replace SD disks with combo disks on several major releases, especially if players get into the $129 range they are currently looking to get into. The fact that this has not been discussed as a possibility for this holiday season to me means that HD is having some yield/quality issues themselves. Even at an additional cost of $2 per disk this is only ~15-20M which could easily be subsidized by HDA/Toshiba, etc. I think HD wants to make sure they get the combo disks ready for primetime before they go this route, rather than outrage people with disks that don't work, etc.

I can confirm that it isn't a Pioneer player (at least the one I am talking about).

For the record, there will be the Denon player in the Fall (profile 1.1), the recently accounced Deawoo player, and a third player that will be dual format (HDi and Profile 1.1 with what looks like enough hardware present to become Profile 2.0). In 48 hours, more will be known!

Thanks Dave! I just want Andy to entertain me more, that's all :(

I can confirm that it isn't a Pioneer player (at least the one I am talking about).

For the record, there will be the Denon player in the Fall (profile 1.1), the recently accounced Deawoo player, and a third player that will be dual format (HDi and Profile 1.1 with what looks like enough hardware present to become Profile 2.0). In 48 hours, more will be known!
From a company that doesn't presently make one? Wouldn't that mean that another BD man has decided to test the waters with some form of HDDVD?

I've been posting on AVS since 2002...so I didn't just join. And yes, after CEDIA, you will be able to confirm what I have been saying about players and how good my sources are.

I meant as an insider or someone claiming insider cred.

Saying that Amir and Dave cannot discuss BD yield rates despite the fact that it is a very pertinent topic with which they are clearly informed upon. I went back to see the BD50 yield thread and AVS has pulled it completely. I harbor no ill will to the moderators but the people making these decisions are essentially censoring discussion on what it likely to be the deciding factor in the HD war. This is very disheartening.Yet, when asked about HD DVD combo yields, he says this:
The yield for combos are somewhat lower due to extra process steps. They are also more expensive because of the additional processing . I can't provide specific information here unfortunately. So it is OK to provide specifics about your competition, but not about your own? Seems a bit double standard to me...

From a company that doesn't presently make one? Wouldn't that mean that another BD man has decided to test the waters with some form of HDDVD?

Maybe it's an Onkyo?

Yet, when asked about HD DVD combo yields, he says this:
So it is OK to provide specifics about your competition, but not about your own? Seems a bit double standard to me...
Not really. Paid is most likely not bound by any agreement to not reveal things he learns about HDDVD, and Amir the same about BD.

Maybe it's an Onkyo?

Then it wouldn't really be news. Onkyo said months ago that they were looking into it, as did Denon. Hell, Denon said they would do it if the parts were available.

Onkyo has an HD DVD Player coming that has already been announced. They have no other forthcoming players that I am aware of.

http://nadelectronics.com/faq#HD-DVD

but this is only because I want it to be them. Who knows, maybe it's Panny.

Then it wouldn't really be news. Onkyo said months ago that they were looking into it, as did Denon. Hell, Denon said they would do it if the parts were available.

Sure, but an announced player is different than "looking into it". Could be Denon. Who else is there? The only ones I would be really shocked over are Phillips & Panasonic. (and Sony and Toshiba, of course). Ah well, guess we can wait a couple more days.

It's my format? SWEET! When do I start getting my royalty checks?

Please answer my question:

Why should one reporter with anonymous sources be an insider while another with anonymous sources is not? It is a simple question, please do not evade it.

Dave just joined and recently started making predictions for products we should be seeing at CEDIA. The accuracy of his sources can be checked then.

As for Beatboy's latest proclamation, it does appear there is an article about the Toshiba/P/DW deal on CE Daily.

Now if beatboy turned down an invite, that is one thing. If he was never extended one, that is another.

Beatboy is more than welcome to become an insider. If he has ever asked. I cannot grant him insider status. That is for someone else to decide. The problem with Beatboy are his credibility issues. He has garnered a lot of attention from both sides for his posts and they generally are not positive. His so called insider info is extremely flawed to say the least. If you don't like Dave being an insider PM the mods. By the way Dave is still giving bluray the egde. We are extremely early on in the format war. He has just pointed out some of the thoughts on why there may be a shift toward HDDVD and his comments are very believable and plain simple common sense. The players dave is talking about will have a 100% accuracy rate. No doubt in my mind.

My thoughts, hypothetical of course, these are not predictions. If HDDVD really wants to win they need to get Warner to go exclusive, so HBO and New Line would follow suit. Then more than likely Disney would go neutral. Add in the fact of stopping the manufacture of dvd's and making them all hddvd combo's and you have a very strong argument. Add in the fact that there is going to be a backlash among the bluray crowd when there $1000 player doesn't due the interactive features on BD-J 1.1 enabled discs.

Oh, did beatboy predict the Paramount, Dreamworks Toshiba deal? LOL Please send me a post. Kind of like Al Gore inventing the internet. As well concerning financial incentives don't make me laugh. Why is a bluray or hddvd player on the endcap in a store. Because they were paid to put it there. That's how endcaps work.

If you think there is no money exchanging hands in this format war you need to wake up. I think the "No Comment" answer of bluray studios in regards to whether they took financial incentives from the BDA says it all for me, and yes it is occuring on both sides. There have been payoffs, royalty incentives (they are the same thing) since day one. There are larger factors at play though. 150M is Chicken Feed compared to what Paramount will be making on HD discs. They can make that on the profits of 1 movie. They are looking at the bigger picture. BD-50's are expensive and difficult to make. They were being subsidized these costs (for those up in arms about the 150M from Toshiba) by Sony until now. Yes, Sony was paying most of their manufacturing costs or something I like to call a financial incentive. With 10% or even 40% yields it is no wonder they dropped support of BD.

I can confirm that it isn't a Pioneer player (at least the one I am talking about).

For the record, there will be the Denon player in the Fall (profile 1.1), the recently accounced Deawoo player, and a third player that will be dual format (HDi and Profile 1.1 with what looks like enough hardware present to become Profile 2.0). In 48 hours, more will be known!Based on your comments, could we assume that the new mystery player is from more of a mass-market manufacturer, rather than a high-end brand? Otherwise, there would be virtually no impact to the market whatsoever.

My own guess - Sony!

(Just kidding about that second part.)

I'll also assume that we can't just keep throwing out names until you either reply with a "no comment" or don't reply to the post.

Scott

Please answer my question:

Why should one reporter with anonymous sources be an insider while another with anonymous sources is not? It is a simple question, please do not evade it.Does Beatboy have any journalistic credentials? I was under the impression that he was just some guy, who is fed information/misinformation from a few varied sources. Albeit, a guy with very thick skin, considering some of the jabs he's taken over his "breaking news" stories.

If I missed something, please correct me.

Scott

I'll also assume that we can't just keep throwing out names until you either reply with a "no comment" or don't reply to the post.


shhh!

Very good point, though my response quoted was more tongue in cheek, hence the :p. ;)

That said, I wonder how many were stamped? It certainly raises the possibility that some of those promotion incentives were to cover the costs of those discs. Either way, that some were actually replicated could be seen as very bad for the BDA. If they truly just trashed what they replicated, then it seems their statements for preferring HD DVD as it gets them to profitability faster hold a good amount of water. ;)

Your logic of:

A) Blu-ray copies of Blades of Glory were pressed
B) The Blu-ray copies were destroyed after P/DW went exclusive
Therefore
C) This is evidence of P/DW seeing HD-DVD as being more profitable

Is completely flawed. C is only true if there is no other possible conclusion from A and B, but this is not the case, since it is easily possible if not overwhelmingly probable that the exclusivity of BoG was part of the $150m deal HD-DVD inked with them. This deal was about money, pure and simple. Anything and everything else you hear has to be weighed against $150,000,000 in cash and incentives, otherwise known as an ammount on the order of magnitude of every dollar spent on HD-DVD by consumers at retail since inception.

Your logic of:

A) Blu-ray copies of Blades of Glory were pressed
B) The Blu-ray copies were destroyed after P/DW went exclusive
Therefore
C) This is evidence of P/DW seeing HD-DVD as being more profitable

Is completely flawed. C is only true if there is no other possible conclusion from A and B, but this is not the case, since it is easily possible if not overwhelmingly probable that the exclusivity of BoG was part of the $150m deal HD-DVD inked with them. This deal was about money, pure and simple. Anything and everything else you hear has to be weighed against $150,000,000 in cash and incentives, otherwise known as an ammount on the order of magnitude of every dollar spent on HD-DVD by consumers at retail since inception.

Assuming this is only about $150m ... are you suggesting that the BDA had offered up nothing to Paramount to keep them Neutral? Or to go Neutral to begin with? btw, I don't believe that figure has been confirmed by anyone, not even the HD DVD PRG.

We don't even know how many copies were pressed.

Either way, it's unimportant. They dropped Blu-ray because it was more expensive. They dropped it because they felt that the technical and economic advantages of HD DVD were the future. If they received promotional consideration for their decision, then so be it. Just like Fox and Disney received promotional consideration for their exclusivity. *shrug*

Paramount made a decision that they felt was best for them. The thing that makes this decision so important is that they tried both. This is what really sticks it to the BDA. Paramount was Neutral and they dropped Blu-ray. They tried both deserts and decided one was better than the other. That, alone, speaks volumes.

Don't you think that the other studios who haven't tried the HD DVD 'Desert' are taking notice and wondering if Paramount knows something they don't? It would be easy for them to find out, all they'd need to do is go Neutral.

We will know more about Paramount later this week. My editor at UAV, Shane Buettner, will be sitting down with Paramount's CTO Alan Bell for a one on one interview and I'm sure Shane will be able to get some more information. You can follow the CEDIA coverage at the UAV website.

We will know more about Paramount later this week. My editor at UAV, Shane Buettner, will be sitting down with Paramount's CTO Alan Bell for a one on one interview and I'm sure Shane will be able to get some more information. You can follow the CEDIA coverage at the UAV website.

Great! Thank you! Do you have a direct link to the Coverage page? Hopefully something that has (or will have) the main points (for both sides) bulleted perhaps? ;)

It should be on the homepage (link in my sig). I won't be covering CEDIA due to conflicts with the job that pays my mortgage, but UAV will have 3 reporters at the show (Shane, Tom Norton & Fred Manteghian). If you have read any of UAV's coverage on the format war, you can see that it is very unbiased and has picked no side.

I can confirm that it isn't a Pioneer player (at least the one I am talking about).

For the record, there will be the Denon player in the Fall (profile 1.1), the recently accounced Deawoo player, and a third player that will be dual format (HDi and Profile 1.1 with what looks like enough hardware present to become Profile 2.0). In 48 hours, more will be known!

My guess would be that it is the Samsung player. Based on data we have so far, it would appear to have all the hardware necessary to handle BD-Live functionality.

It should be on the homepage (link in my sig). I won't be covering CEDIA due to conflicts with the job that pays my mortgage, but UAV will have 3 reporters at the show (Shane, Tom Norton & Fred Manteghian). If you have read any of UAV's coverage on the format war, you can see that it is very unbiased and has picked no side.

Thanks for the info Dave. I appreciate your posting a lot of good info on this board, in spite of some of the abuse that you and the other insiders have been taking lately. I'm sure that reading CEDIA coverage this week will be interfering with the job that pays my mortgage, but oh well there are only 20 or so events (between sports and AV) that I can say that about.

It's my format? SWEET! When do I start getting my royalty checks?

Please answer my question:

Why should one reporter with anonymous sources be an insider while another with anonymous sources is not? It is a simple question, please do not evade it.

Dave just joined and recently started making predictions for products we should be seeing at CEDIA. The accuracy of his sources can be checked then.

As for Beatboy's latest proclamation, it does appear there is an article about the Toshiba/P/DW deal on CE Daily.

Now if beatboy turned down an invite, that is one thing. If he was never extended one, that is another.


Winn, for you to claim you are not supporting a side is laughable.

My guess would be that it is the Samsung player. Based on data we have so far, it would appear to have all the hardware necessary to handle BD-Live functionality.That's what I would have thought; but Sammy announced their player (both previously and at IFA) with no mention of profiles. Maybe they are holding back for a CEDIA announcement where they will point the the fact that it's firmware upgradable. There pdf doc on the player makes no such claim; and in fact specifically says "PiP for HD DVD", or something to that effect.

Still, there aren't many other likely candidates. Unless it's a new, updated design from LG (now that's something I hadn't thought of).

Still, there aren't many other likely candidates. Unless it's a new, updated design from LG (now that's something I hadn't thought of).

I definitely saw something about a second LG player being designed, and that it would be more complete on both formats, but I don't remember where/when. This would not surprise me in the least. In fact I'm hoping it's something else because LG and Samsung are givens in my book.

My guess would be that it is the Samsung player. Based on data we have so far, it would appear to have all the hardware necessary to handle BD-Live functionality.That certainly wouldn't be news.

That's what I would have thought; but Sammy announced their player (both previously and at IFA) with no mention of profiles. Maybe they are holding back for a CEDIA announcement where they will point the the fact that it's firmware upgradable. There pdf doc on the player makes no such claim; and in fact specifically says "PiP for HD DVD", or something to that effect.

Still, there aren't many other likely candidates. Unless it's a new, updated design from LG (now that's something I hadn't thought of).

I thought the LG player went without saying. Hadn't they announced a v2 of their Super Multi-Blu that would be HD DVD logo'd?

Winn, for you to claim you are not supporting a side is laughable.

Oh, do tell. I could really use a laugh.

I definitely saw something about a second LG player being designed, and that it would be more complete on both formats, but I don't remember where/when. This would not surprise me in the least. In fact I'm hoping it's something else because LG and Samsung are givens in my book.

Me too ... I'm hoping it's from someone who has yet to announce any sort of HD DVD support. Like Philips or Panasonic or Pioneer. Considering the first 2 are members of the 3C, that's highly unlikely though. :(

One of you guys got it right up above, but I won't tell you which ;)

Xmas is going to be expensive this year if it was me...:D

Any chance its a true universal player >$1500?

MSRP will be $999, it will most likely see prices below that when it streets.

MSRP will be $999, it will most likely see prices below that when it streets.At that price, I don't see it being more than a blip on the radar screen as far as adoption or sales impact goes, although people here may be very excited about the news.

Now, if it's from a company that has only been BR exclusive, I would say that would be an interesting turn.

Scott

I would buy a dual format player for $999 if that supported both HD DVD with full HDi capabilities, BD Profile 1.1 upgradable to 2.0, 1080P24 output for both formats, advanced audio decoding including TrueHD and dtsMA with pass through capabilities, and analog audio outputs (7.1 would be a bonus).

From what I have been told, this player will meet most of your needs xradman.

While the current crop of players are substandard compared to what it is out in individual players, this player will meet or exceed what is currently available in stand alone units (at least on paper).

To those who are so quick to criticize: perhaps you want to volunteer for mod duty?

strictly a volunteer, unpaid position: no benefits,long hours, little love: contact the administrators ;)

awww dun say that. we heart the moderators the so called 'peace keepers' :)

and to Dave - you do not have to prove the you are neutral. We can see that in your posts ;)

Dave,
Do you think the player will support SACD and DVD-A?

I doubt it. As much as I liked each of those formats, they are essentially dead IMO.

awww dun say that. we heart the moderators the so called 'peace keepers' :)

and to Dave - you do not have to prove the you are neutral. We can see that in your posts ;)

Thanks.

At that price, I don't see it being more than a blip on the radar screen as far as adoption or sales impact goes, although people here may be very excited about the news.

Now, if it's from a company that has only been BR exclusive, I would say that would be an interesting turn.

Scott

Personally I see more BD exclusive CE's doing dual format players just so they can keep the premium pricing of the players and try to generate more revenue off of fewer sales. But a $999 dual format player isn't going to get traction in the market, you can get a Tosh and Sony for less, so the only impact is if it was a BD exclusive company and that's just for PR.

I didn't want to post this in the Insider Q&A thread because this is more of a comment in regards to what was just posted over there:

Middling definiton:
So Jeff...would you say the yields are getting better for BD50's?

They are getting better, but they aren't anywhere near an HD-30. If I went by what you've said about Sony's yield %, the numbers I have are just a little bit better.

We know that the yields are low for Blu-ray Discs (at 50GB), but it seems that there has at least been some slight improvement. Is the belief, currently, that there will be continued improvement, or have they reached the max in terms of yield (perhaps a problem down the line if a studio wants to use a BD50)? I mean, if the yields are at 40-50%, and they've been working and experimenting on this tech for several years, shouldn't they be much further along?

And another comment: In the end, is 50GB needed for a 2-3 hour movie with a lossless audio track and interactive features? Shouldn't 25-30GB suffice? What's wrong with one 25GB disc with the main feature, and another 25GB with special features, and the same for HD DVD (30GB and 30GB, or 30GB and 15GB).

One of you guys got it right up above, but I won't tell you which ;)

Hum i saw LG, Samsung, Philips, Panasonic and Pioneer in the above posts.

you already said it was not Pioneer I can't see it being Panasonic. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities =)

If it's really going to be big news i would think it would have to be Philips since LG and Samsung either have them already or have them announced.

So my guess is Philips.

One of you guys got it right up above, but I won't tell you which ;)

PLEASE BE A PANNY PLEASE BE A PANNY PLEASE BE A PANNY....


Oh, wait. 3C, they're on the starchamber board.

Sigh. A combo player that did things right, AND had DVD-Audio, 7.1 analogue, regular FW updates, and a name brand would be, well, happy.

I look forward to being disappointed (he noted, sardonically).

I doubt it. As much as I liked each of those formats, they are essentially dead IMO.

Fie on you and your negative thoughts! FIE I say!

Oh, wait. No you're right. OK, move along...

FWIW, I look forward to playing my library of DVD-A and SACD just as long as I look forward to showing off my inevitably about-to-be-extinct-within-a-decade BD and HD DVD titles. Heck, they can play with my laserdiscs, my CDs, thousands of vinyl, and other media detritus that I call "the collection" (or, "wanda", depending on my mood and current state of loneliness).

I guess it's not a Panny. Sigh...

Hum i saw LG, Samsung, Philips, Panasonic and Pioneer in the above posts.

you already said it was not Pioneer I can't see it being Panasonic. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities =)

If it's really going to be big news i would think it would have to be Philips since LG and Samsung either have them already or have them announced.

So my guess is Philips.

But Phillips is part of 3C; My guess is LG.

So my guess is Philips.

"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch." - Nigel Powers

A fine guess (hopefully one that won't lose Dave his next NDA invite) - other than lightbulbs I can't think of a single product that I've owned of theirs. A razor? Maybe. Certainly a few lightbulbs. And, of course, a good portion of the patent fees for every optical disc I have, and the publisher of many of my LDs.

Sooo, Profile 2 BD with HD DVD playback from Philips, 7ch analogue, $999 retail. There's my guess/hope/potential future player.

But Phillips is part of 3C; My guess is LG.

Oh, crap, is it Sony/Phillips/Panny? yeah, you're right.

Ok, strike what I said before. Now I'm less excited by the thought of another combo from the Koreans.

(and that, folks, is how this forum is used to sway even the most tired of its denizens).

'Night, all, go watch a film before bed on your fancy players.

It certainly won't earth shattering if it's LG or Samsung.

WHAT IF IT'S SONY?!

Ok, now I'm really going... nite. :)

I didn't want to post this in the Insider Q&A thread because this is more of a comment in regards to what was just posted over there:

We know that the yields are low for Blu-ray Discs (at 50GB), but it seems that there has at least been some slight improvement. Is the belief, currently, that there will be continued improvement, or have they reached the max in terms of yield (perhaps a problem down the line if a studio wants to use a BD50)? I mean, if the yields are at 40-50%, and they've been working and experimenting on this tech for several years, shouldn't they be much further along?)

One question would be how long this facility has been producing BD50's.

The other question would be: is the equipment evolving to produce better yields.

Singulus has new replication equipment coming imminently for BD50's apparently.

http://cms.singulus.de/en/presse/pressemeldungen/pressemeldung/article/445/7.html?cHash=d4fb11520d

Anyway, the new information from Jeff debunks the previous "insider" info that non-Sony replicators were only getting 10%, and calls into question the other information provided about Sony yields.

Hum i saw LG, Samsung, Philips, Panasonic and Pioneer in the above posts.

you already said it was not Pioneer I can't see it being Panasonic. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities =)

If it's really going to be big news i would think it would have to be Philips since LG and Samsung either have them already or have them announced.

So my guess is Philips.

I suggested NAD above also...just pointing it out for completeness. and wishful thinking.

One question would be how long this facility has been producing BD50's.

The other question would be: is the equipment evolving to produce better yields.

Singulus has new replication equipment coming imminently for BD50's apparently.

http://cms.singulus.de/en/presse/pressemeldungen/pressemeldung/article/445/7.html?cHash=d4fb11520d

Anyway, the new information from Jeff debunks the previous "insider" info that non-Sony replicators were only getting 10%, and calls into question the other information provided about Sony yields.

Brian,

I answered your question in the other insiders thread. I have shot off a couple of emails to see if I can get some clarification on what plant's that this information came from. If my source feels that it is safe to share this information, I will publish it. Check in tomorrow.

All,
Well, all I can say is wow, glad I had a day off so that I could read through this thread. Lots of good information. I do have a question though regarding how it is that the media produced are verified to be good. There is a long discussion concerning BD50 yields and BD25 yields versus their HD-DVD counterparts. I haven't seen any posts that describe how the plant figures out how each disk is either playable or not playable. Anyone have a link to the answer? It would be good background info for others curious about the same thing.

I also would say that I have a newfound respect for the importance of yields, especially when mass producing large numbers of disks. I hadn't really given that much thought before reading this thread, but then again, I usually don't have my business hat on when reading AVS posts...

RT

We know that the yields are low for Blu-ray Discs (at 50GB), but it seems that there has at least been some slight improvement. Is the belief, currently, that there will be continued improvement, or have they reached the max in terms of yield (perhaps a problem down the line if a studio wants to use a BD50)? I mean, if the yields are at 40-50%, and they've been working and experimenting on this tech for several years, shouldn't they be much further along?
Well, at least it is good to hear that the previously reported 10-20% yield by HD DVD supporters is wrong, as expected. Wonder about the $100-$200 and higher claim Amir was saying (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11500099&postcount=186) then...

Well, I'm sure they were expecting yields to be better by now than they are. However, remember that it is brand new technology compared to HD DVD. It wouldn't be the first time a new product has been postponed/delayed etc... For example, I was hoping to have a SED screen up on my wall by now. (Not considering any financial issues.) Without intricate knowledge of the replication industry, I still expect the yields to increase, for sure. HD DVD just got to acceptable yields MUCH faster, since it is known technology. (With combos yields still not revealed...)

Whether it's earth-shattering news or not Dave didn't say, merely that everyone will be talking about the player. If one of the first Profile 1.1 BR players really released also plays HD DVD, and is also priced in the 3 figures (hello Denon) then it will generate a ton of buzz whether it wasa announced previously or not. I've heard good things about the engineering of the Samsung products, but have held off on a 1.0 player without an ethernet jack so far. This could very well sway me to neutrality and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Whether it's earth-shattering news or not Dave didn't say, merely that everyone will be talking about the player. If one of the first Profile 1.1 BR players really released also plays HD DVD, and is also priced in the 3 figures (hello Denon) then it will generate a ton of buzz whether it wasa announced previously or not. I've heard good things about the engineering of the Samsung products, but have held off on a 1.0 player without an ethernet jack so far. This could very well sway me to neutrality and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I personally won't be talking about it if it is a Samsung or LG player.

Hum i saw LG, Samsung, Philips, Panasonic and Pioneer in the above posts.

you already said it was not Pioneer I can't see it being Panasonic. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities =)

If it's really going to be big news i would think it would have to be Philips since LG and Samsung either have them already or have them announced.

So my guess is Philips.

Philips is part of the 3C ... it would be a complete shock to see them release a Dual Format Player. If that occurred, it would appear that the BDA were splitting apart at the core. I don't think that would be 'allowed' to happen.

I personally won't be talking about it if it is a Samsung or LG player.

Good for you.

From what I have been told, this player will meet most of your needs xradman.

While the current crop of players are substandard compared to what it is out in individual players, this player will meet or exceed what is currently available in stand alone units (at least on paper).
Any idea when reviewers will have one?

One question would be how long this facility has been producing BD50's.

The other question would be: is the equipment evolving to produce better yields.

Singulus has new replication equipment coming imminently for BD50's apparently.

http://cms.singulus.de/en/presse/pressemeldungen/pressemeldung/article/445/7.html?cHash=d4fb11520d

Anyway, the new information from Jeff debunks the previous "insider" info that non-Sony replicators were only getting 10%, and calls into question the other information provided about Sony yields.

We'll see though, it just shows that we have more information to dig through. Were those yields calculated from on/off, or just during peak runtime? And it's possible that the Panasonic Test Line was the one getting 10% yields -- If I remember, that never really got off the ground. And the 10% info was said to be dated so it does line up.

What I found to be *really* interesting is that a line outside of DADC was getting slightly better results.

The net/net of this though is that it still doesn't sound very good. They're going to need to get up in the 90% range to be competitive for several reasons: (1) It costs more to get a BD line in place to begin with, (2) cycle times are (based on several reports) 2-3x greater on Blu-ray. If we look at this and consider that for every 2 discs made on Blu-ray, one is garbage -- and in the same amount of time, we have a 95% shot that 4 HD-DVD discs were stamped, that's a 4:1 advantage. Plus, it costs way more to put those BD Lines in place. They're going to need to get these yield things figured out sooner than later imo ...

Good for you.

Do you honestly feel that a Samsung or LG BD1.1/HDi Player for $999 will be worth any hype worth discussing about? The only way it would be interesting if they were priced $599, but even then that's way out side mass market adaption which means the overall impact at this point in the war will be nil.

Philips is part of the 3C ... it would be a complete shock to see them release a Dual Format Player. If that occurred, it would appear that the BDA were splitting apart at the core. I don't think that would be 'allowed' to happen.

BDA has no hold over Philips. After reading a fairly neutral statement from a Philips rep and being absent from the player market. (apart from a rebadged token effort) it might happen. Against it is that Philips downsized their business in the ce electronics market.

After P-Day anything is possible.

P2-Day perhaps. :D

I suggested NAD above also...just pointing it out for completeness. and wishful thinking.

NAD ?

Well, at least it is good to hear that the previously reported 10-20% yield by HD DVD supporters is wrong, as expected. Wonder about the $100-$200 and higher claim Amir was saying (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11500099&postcount=186) then...


This was somewhat explained and was likely meant tongue in cheek to begin with. I believe it was explained that if a .25 DVD can cost $20 MSRP, then a disk that costs $2.00 would in turn have a $160 MSRP -- or something like that.

Either way, you keep repeating this over and over. Let's discuss Sony's 63% hardware lead in europe (based on Revenue) when the information posted looks like it's actually a 70:30 lead in terms of player sales (in HD DVD's favor).

I feel this comment is going to get beat to death alongside the 'science fiction' statement for eternity. Yet, we have Paid just recently telling us that there weren't any Profile 1.0 players being released a month before the new mandatory spec ... and just a few pages later, telling us the new Sony BDP-S500 is Profile 1.0 and due in October with no plans of upgradeability to Profile 1.1. :rolleyes:


Well, I'm sure they were expecting yields to be better by now than they are. However, remember that it is brand new technology compared to HD DVD. It wouldn't be the first time a new product has been postponed/delayed etc... For example, I was hoping to have a SED screen up on my wall by now. (Not considering any financial issues.) Without intricate knowledge of the replication industry, I still expect the yields to increase, for sure. HD DVD just got to acceptable yields MUCH faster, since it is known technology. (With combos yields still not revealed...)

This is not brand new technology. Haven't they been working on this for almost a decade now? If it's not ready, it's not ready ... and should not have been brought to market. These yield issues just lend credence to the fact that the format was pushed to market half-baked. Alone, these are things that might be overlooked, but couple that with the profile issues and BD-J issues, and it just seems more and more ... well ... rushed and incomplete.

As far as Combo Yields, there really isn't any point in discussing them. Blu-ray supporters have already said they are too expensive and they are a liability to the HD DVD format because they don't work, etc, etc. :rolleyes:

That said, whatever HD DVD Combo yields are, they are an infinite amount better than Blu-ray Combo Yields anyways! And if HD DVD Combo yields make it up into the 95% area (I'm only assuming they are not already there), that would be *very* bad for the BDA because it allows the Studios to produce one SKU a lot more easily. It's definitely not what the BDA wants. *shrug*

Do you honestly feel that a Samsung or LG BD1.1/HDi Player for $999 will be worth any hype worth discussing about? The only way it would be interesting if they were priced $599, but even then that's way out side mass market adaption which means the overall impact at this point in the war will be nil.

I think a Samsung player would generate hype ... it was originally slated to only support Profile 1.0 (although it should have the guts to do more considering the HD DVD compliance). If they annouce Profile 2.0 support, they could be first to market and that would be pretty significant imo.

BDA has no hold over Philips. After reading a fairly neutral statement from a Philips rep and being absent from the player market. (apart from a rebadged token effort) it might happen. Against it is that Philips downsized their business in the ce electronics market.

After P-Day anything is possible.

P2-Day perhaps. :D

Still though, Philips is part of the 3C ... I don't think Sony/Panasonic would allow them to go Neutral like that. The negative PR implications of that would just be ... huge. *shrug*

Well, at least it is good to hear that the previously reported 10-20% yield by HD DVD supporters is wrong, as expected. Wonder about the $100-$200 and higher claim Amir was saying (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11500099&postcount=186) then...
I think this line of questioning is improper. I have already said that I am prepared to answer this point and nothing Jeff has said has changed my explanation. But because of the new rules, I cannot.

So I appreciate it if you don't keep bringing it up as implying I don't have an answer. I do but I am not allowed to say because folks on your side of the fence don't want to have that kind of discussion here anymore....

Still though, Philips is part of the 3C ... I don't think Sony/Panasonic would allow them to go Neutral like that. The negative PR implications of that would just be ... huge. *shrug*

Phillips just released their new 7100 model at IFA. I expect them to announce the same player at CEDIA only for the NA market. It appears to be a rebadge. This info comes from Keith Nack who was taken by surprise by the announcement and made the suppisition that it is a rebadge.

I think this line of questioning is improper. I have already said that I am prepared to answer this point and nothing Jeff has said has changed my explanation. But because of the new rules, I cannot.

So I appreciate it if you don't keep bringing it up as implying I don't have an answer. I do but I am not allowed to say because folks on your side of the fence don't want to have that kind of discussion here anymore....

it is not meant to censor but to limit some out of line comments

revised rule:
If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not disparage or bash the opposing format in any way.

Half question and opinion. If someone like Amir has access to information which he is willing to make public, wouldn't he still be allowed under the new rules? Information isn't inherently good or bad, bashing or disparaging, it is what it is. Saying something along the lines that BD Players are more expensive isn't bashing Blu-ray, but stating a fact.

Good for you.Already announced and the Samsung will ship 1.1. Not news.

Half question and opinion. If someone like Amir has access to information which he is willing to make public, wouldn't he still be allowed under the new rules? Information isn't inherently good or bad, bashing or disparaging, it is what it is. Saying something along the lines that BD Players are more expensive isn't bashing Blu-ray, but stating a fact.
I agree. The rule seems to have been altered to provide the ability to give news and information, as it should have been. Under the rule, it seems that Amir can tell us what he knows, but needs to stick to that. Not that I felt he was being insulting to begin with. People are just too touchy about this crap.

And another comment: In the end, is 50GB needed for a 2-3 hour movie with a lossless audio track and interactive features? Shouldn't 25-30GB suffice? What's wrong with one 25GB disc with the main feature, and another 25GB with special features, and the same for HD DVD (30GB and 30GB, or 30GB and 15GB).

Hi Russ,

Based on the popularity of multiple disc in the current DVD market there is absolutely nothing wrong with multiple HD discs. The only problem with taking this stance if you are a Blu-ray studio is that it totally negates all the prior marketing hype inferring that somehow 30GB per disc for a movie is insufficent whereas 50GB is fine. In essence the studio would now be saying.. er, nevermind 25GB per disc for a movie is okay.

Larry

Already announced and the Samsung will ship 1.1. Not news.

UPDATE: And, sadly, you won't get support for the forthcoming update to Blu-ray's minimum player specs that go into effect October 31. Those specs delineate requirements for in-unit storage (256MB for those keeping score), picture-in-picture via a secondary audio and video decode, and ethernet-enabled interactivity. Samsung's own initial press release, distributed earlier today, noted the player will have local storage and picture-in-picture--however, it did not specify that those features would be strictly for HD DVD discs (the company has since updated their info). Later in the day I met with Samsung's Maria Colon, marketing manager, and Reid Sullivan, vice president of marketing; they clarified that the BD-UP5000's storage and picture-in-picture would only work or HD DVD discs, not Blu-ray Discs. Sullivan also said that Samsung would not have a Blu-ray player with the updated specs until 2008.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/004989.html

?

Hi Russ,

Based on the popularity of multiple disc in the current DVD market there is absolutely nothing wrong with multiple HD discs. The only problem with taking this stance if you are a Blu-ray studio is that it totally negates all the prior marketing hype inferring that somehow 30GB per disc for a movie is insufficent whereas 50GB is fine. In essence the studio would now be saying.. er, nevermind 25GB per disc for a movie is okay.

Larry
I prefer that way. Buy one disc for the movie and pay more for the extra stuff if you want it.

Ugh. I am really pretty disgusted right now. I try to stay objective in these matters (as objective as possible anyways). To find out that we have an insider that has information pertinent to the most important factor in this war (production and infrastructure) and has made bold statements was truly exciting. Then to find out that after being challenged on his statements he is WILLING TO STAND BEHIND HIS COMMENTS AND EXPLAIN WHY HE MADE THEM but is PROHIBITED from doing so is a grave injustice. I have been around AVS for years and this is the low point for me.

I hope AVS finds sees the error in its ways and allows free speech. Informed, intelligent free speech at that.

Amir, if you can find another appropriate venue to voice your statements please let me know so I might find the answer to this. Its killing me to know that the information is out there but that I am being stopped from learning it.

OK…I’ve heard back from a couple of sources, and also was able to hear from a new one as well. Here is where we are:

Sony’s yields have improved “a bit” this summer and are up to around 50% depending on how much data is on the disc. The more data, the lower the yields, the lower the data, the higher the yield number goes, but 50% is just about max right now (give or take a percentage point or two).

As for independent replicators, there are four “major’s” that are capable of doing BD50’s according to my sources. They are Cinram, Deluxe, Panasonic, & Infodisc. Of these four, one of them (unnamed by the request of my source at that company) is getting yields on BD50’s up there with Sony in the 50% range. The other three can’t get above 10%, but Sony is lending a hand to them to increase their yields. I am assuming they will get things in line based upon the one independent that I referenced above who has been able to increase yields.

An interesting side note to this though is the yields on BD25’s, that are much lower than I thought they would be. Right now, the are hovering in the 60-70% range and are in the same scenario as the BD50’s when it comes to the amount of data on the disc. The lower the amount of data, the higher the yields are. At this point in the game, I would have expected the single layer discs to be much higher than they currently are.

Another thing that should be noted is that Paramount/Dreamworks was using one of the three replicators that couldn’t get the yields up above 10% on BD50’s. Could this have been one of the things that precipitated their move to HD DVD?

So, where does it leave us? For the most part, nothing has changed from what I reported last week, other than there is one major replicator of BD50 discs that have improved yields, but the other three majors can’t get them to work as of yet. These other companies are sending the work to either Sony or the other independent to do their BD50 work, which I’m sure raises their costs (outsourcing while their equipment sits idle…never a good thing in manufacturing). The good news is that the BDA is able to keep up with demand at this time, even with the lower yields and less manufacturing capacity, mainly due to the fact that sales are pretty pathetic on both formats compared to DVD. But with player adoption growing, disc sales growing, and the holiday buying season just around the corner, yield rates could become a much bigger issue the next 6 months.

Now, on to HD DVD: As Amir has stated before, there are literally hundreds of HD DVD production lines that are available in the marketplace. Since it is essentially the same process to make a HD DVD vs. a DVD, the manufacturing process is much easier to implement and yields are a lot higher. Jeff stated some numbers earlier that HD15’s and HD30’s are above 95%, and I can confirm those numbers as well from a couple of well-placed sources. But, I’ve hit a stone wall when it comes to the combo discs, which no one can seem to get the yield numbers on these. My assumption is that they aren’t as high as the HD30 and HD15 numbers since there is the extra process that needs to take place (which Amir has spoken about). Could this be one of the reason’s why “Combos” have been limited to “new releases” only and not on catalog titles? Or, was it that the studio’s (Universal especially) didn’t see the need to use combo’s anymore on the catalog titles because it wasn’t helping sales?

Comparing the two camps on this, HD DVD is in a much better position (from a manufacturing perspective). First, due to the disc thickness, the drying time of the disc making process is 50% shorter. When you throw in that the yields are about twice as high, that means you essentially have a 4-1 advantage in actually making the discs in favor of HD DVD. Again, right now that isn’t a big deal since there aren’t that many discs being pressed, but with wide adoption of both formats, HD DVD will have a manufacturing edge unless yields increase for BD50’s. Even if they can get the yields up to above 95%, they still take longer to make than an HD DVD, so in order to output the same amount of discs they will need to work twice as long or spend extra money on another fabrication line, which just adds to the overall cost.

Comparing the two camps on this, HD DVD is in a much better position (from a manufacturing perspective). First, due to the disc thickness, the drying time of the disc making process is 50% shorter. When you throw in that the yields are about twice as high, that means you essentially have a 4-1 advantage in actually making the discs in favor of HD DVD. Again, right now that isn’t a big deal since there aren’t that many discs being pressed, but with wide adoption of both formats, HD DVD will have a manufacturing edge unless yields increase for BD50’s. Even if they can get the yields up to above 95%, they still take longer to make than an HD DVD, so in order to output the same amount of discs they will need to work twice as long or spend extra money on another fabrication line, which just adds to the overall cost.

You know, if cooling times are such a big concern, couldn't BDs be pressed on a half disc like DVD/HD DVD, and then bonded to another half disc blank? It seems like that just isn't worth the trouble.

An interesting side note to this though is the yields on BD25’s, that are much lower than I thought they would be. Right now, the are hovering in the 60-70% range and are in the same scenario as the BD50’s when it comes to the amount of data on the disc. The lower the amount of data, the higher the yields are. At this point in the game, I would have expected the single layer discs to be much higher than they currently are.

....


Comparing the two camps on this, HD DVD is in a much better position (from a manufacturing perspective). First, due to the disc thickness, the drying time of the disc making process is 50% shorter. When you throw in that the yields are about twice as high, that means you essentially have a 4-1 advantage in actually making the discs in favor of HD DVD. Again, right now that isn’t a big deal since there aren’t that many discs being pressed, but with wide adoption of both formats, HD DVD will have a manufacturing edge unless yields increase for BD50’s. Even if they can get the yields up to above 95%, they still take longer to make than an HD DVD, so in order to output the same amount of discs they will need to work twice as long or spend extra money on another fabrication line, which just adds to the overall cost.
They will have it for BD25's too, it seems

Comparing the two camps on this, HD DVD is in a much better position (from a manufacturing perspective). First, due to the disc thickness, the drying time of the disc making process is 50% shorter. When you throw in that the yields are about twice as high, that means you essentially have a 4-1 advantage in actually making the discs in favor of HD DVD. Again, right now that isn’t a big deal since there aren’t that many discs being pressed, but with wide adoption of both formats, HD DVD will have a manufacturing edge unless yields increase for BD50’s. Even if they can get the yields up to above 95%, they still take longer to make than an HD DVD, so in order to output the same amount of discs they will need to work twice as long or spend extra money on another fabrication line, which just adds to the overall cost.

Hey! That's almost exactly what I said this morning here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11515893&postcount=476 ;)

I do but I am not allowed to say because folks on your side of the fence don't want to have that kind of discussion here anymore....

...I've got no idea what the real yields are, and I frankly don't really care. At this point in time it simply doesn't affect me on a disc-to-disc basis, save for the fact that titles from some exclusive studios (say, Fox) tend to be a bit pricier than those from WB. Now, that said, Blades of Glory was still $15 more than some WB titles on HD DVD, so the whole thing is a bit of a mess.

If I may, I'm assuming that it comes down to what you choose as your common terms of reference - clearly if it takes two months of coaster after coaster, 'till finally you get a working line with at least "middling" levels (as opposed to, what, "apocalyptic" levels?), then of course the whole story isn't being told.

Based on what I've seen Amir discuss, his terms of reference for yield numbers go back to the entire process, where the more positive spin on numbers would take into account yields when things are up and humming. A pathetic analogy - for years laser printers would publish pages-per-minute specs, leaving out how long it took for the first page to spit out. It was great that you could get 8-10ppm back in those days, but if it took you 2 minutes for the first page, and you normally just printed a couple pages, then the ppm numbers were of course way lower (printing 2 pages in this case would take 3 minutes, just as printing 10 pages would take 3 minutes).

It's all a numbers game - what's at the heart of the matter, I think, is that the scalability of BD replication is being called into question, and even taking the best numbers that have been made available bodes poorly, potentially, for long term replication. Amir has suggested repeatedly that they've had a decade to work out the kinks, and that the limitations are in part due to factors such as substrate cooling times (a fixed issue, naturally), as well as issues of complexity and technical challenge (solutions to which would also improve HD DVD replication, thus making the relative advantage ratio consistant).

However, one could easily visualize that this ratio becomes meaningless, that the difference between one process and another is a question of shorter and shorter periods of time as the technology matures.

What's distressing to me, however, is the sheer vitriol that many express about these issues of yield, or bandwidth, or disc size, as if these are all to be considered in isolation. Yields are meaningless if discs are not being sold. Bandwidth and codec selection is trumped if the masters are in poor shape (or at least their meaning is clouded by being required to work overtime).

My dip into the BR.com pool showed post after post attacking this very issue as being patently rediculous at its face, ignoring the fact that even the numbers they're trumpetting mean that the cost is still prohibitively expensive without serious support from "donations". Meanwhile, some the HD DVD crowd is cooing over these numbers, trumpetting them as some sort of anti-BD rallying cry, as if their format of choice has cast some mighty aspersion against its foe.

I'm not quite sure how it happened, how this became a team sport. I've never seen this (there weren't enough people to care when the sacd vs. dvd-audio nutbars went at each other). Similarly, I just think the arguments are getting louder, covering similar ground over an over. With many of the BD insiders retreating to an area where they are free from challenges of their peers, but also free from pointed attacks from those with a little ammunition and a lot of chutzpah.

The format "war" won't be won over yields, but it may play a role among the companies that the insiders represent. The semantics of the numbers game belies technical challenges for either format, what for one seems a limitation (longer production times and lower yield, smaller discs) may in fact be a mitigated factor (larger discs with more suplements, better codec efficiency and increased number of discs). I'm not, in other words, saying these are outside of the consumer's line of interest, but that the bigger picture seems to be lost for many. Even Amir has suggested that the battle is with DVD and torrents, not among the two competing disc types. Each has titles that do things that the other type does not, each can contribute to your own library, each has positives and negatives, and each is significantly better in terms of pq and aq than OTA, DVD, VOD, etc.

So, as more and more of AVS retreats into their respective clubhouses, and AVS breaks further apart into cliques on outside boards, I shake my head and think it was only weeks ago that we saw a flurry of good, open debate amongst the insiders and knowledgeable posters here at AVS. How everything has turned around so quickly and sharply boggles the mind, as departed insiders allow hatred and personal attacks to flourish, while a neutered insiders section continues to grasp for its identification here at AVS... I miss the good old days of mid-August, alas.

They will have it for BD25's too, it seems

And even if they can get yields to match, it seems like HD DVD has an advantage in cycle times ... so you'll need twice as many Blu-ray lines to match capacity. Not to mention those lines are like 10x more expensive or something like that.

The good news is that if BD is able to keep up with demand based on what they have, HD DVD should have absolutely no issues going forward even if they sell a few million players as the capacity for replication is clearly available. ;)

...I've got no idea what the real yields are, and I frankly don't really care. At this point in time it simply doesn't affect me on a disc-to-disc basis, save for the fact that titles from some exclusive studios (say, Fox) tend to be a bit pricier than those from WB. Now, that said, Blades of Glory was still $15 more than some WB titles on HD DVD, so the whole thing is a bit of a mess.

If I may, I'm assuming that it comes down to what you choose as your common terms of reference - clearly if it takes two months of coaster after coaster, 'till finally you get a working line with at least "middling" levels (as opposed to, what, "apocalyptic" levels?), then of course the whole story isn't being told.

Based on what I've seen Amir discuss, his terms of reference for yield numbers go back to the entire process, where the more positive spin on numbers would take into account yields when things are up and humming. A pathetic analogy - for years laser printers would publish pages-per-minute specs, leaving out how long it took for the first page to spit out. It was great that you could get 8-10ppm back in those days, but if it took you 2 minutes for the first page, and you normally just printed a couple pages, then the ppm numbers were of course way lower (printing 2 pages in this case would take 3 minutes, just as printing 10 pages would take 3 minutes).

It's all a numbers game - what's at the heart of the matter, I think, is that the scalability of BD replication is being called into question, and even taking the best numbers that have been made available bodes poorly, potentially, for long term replication. Amir has suggested repeatedly that they've had a decade to work out the kinks, and that the limitations are in part due to factors such as substrate cooling times (a fixed issue, naturally), as well as issues of complexity and technical challenge (solutions to which would also improve HD DVD replication, thus making the relative advantage ratio consistant).

However, one could easily visualize that this ratio becomes meaningless, that the difference between one process and another is a question of shorter and shorter periods of time as the technology matures.

What's distressing to me, however, is the sheer vitriol that many express about these issues of yield, or bandwidth, or disc size, as if these are all to be considered in isolation. Yields are meaningless if discs are not being sold. Bandwidth and codec selection is trumped if the masters are in poor shape (or at least their meaning is clouded by being required to work overtime).

My dip into the BR.com pool showed post after post attacking this very issue as being patently rediculous at its face, ignoring the fact that even the numbers they're trumpetting mean that the cost is still prohibitively expensive without serious support from "donations". Meanwhile, some the HD DVD crowd is cooing over these numbers, trumpetting them as some sort of anti-BD rallying cry, as if their format of choice has cast some mighty aspersion against its foe.

I'm not quite sure how it happened, how this became a team sport. I've never seen this (there weren't enough people to care when the sacd vs. dvd-audio nutbars went at each other). Similarly, I just think the arguments are getting louder, covering similar ground over an over. With many of the BD insiders retreating to an area where they are free from challenges of their peers, but also free from pointed attacks from those with a little ammunition and a lot of chutzpah.

The format "war" won't be won over yields, but it may play a role among the companies that the insiders represent. The semantics of the numbers game belies technical challenges for either format, what for one seems a limitation (longer production times and lower yield, smaller discs) may in fact be a mitigated factor (larger discs with more suplements, better codec efficiency and increased number of discs). I'm not, in other words, saying these are outside of the consumer's line of interest, but that the bigger picture seems to be lost for many. Even Amir has suggested that the battle is with DVD and torrents, not among the two competing disc types. Each has titles that do things that the other type does not, each can contribute to your own library, each has positives and negatives, and each is significantly better in terms of pq and aq than OTA, DVD, VOD, etc.

So, as more and more of AVS retreats into their respective clubhouses, and AVS breaks further apart into cliques on outside boards, I shake my head and think it was only weeks ago that we saw a flurry of good, open debate amongst the insiders and knowledgeable posters here at AVS. How everything has turned around so quickly and sharply boggles the mind, as departed insiders allow hatred and personal attacks to flourish, while a neutered insiders section continues to grasp for its identification here at AVS... I miss the good old days of mid-August, alas.

Well said and I agree. I'm not trying to "bash" one side over the other here, and if it is coming off that way, it wasn't my intention.

What I am trying to do is get information out that some people don't want to see the light of day because it makes their chosen format "look bad". Nothing that I have presented here on yields matters a hill of beans if the format isn't accepted widely. Given time, it could be fixed as well.

The format "war" won't be won over yields, but it may play a role among the companies that the insiders represent.

As I think this is ultimately the summary of your long post, I'll just quote it. But I think a lot of people disagree with this statement, which is why this horse continues to get beaten, nor will it die.

By all accounts, those of us reading between the lines believe it is very possible these very things were a primary factor (if not the primary factor) In P/DW doing what they did.

Couple this with the fact that it also appears likely that AVS is essentially being censored in discussing this, could possibly prove that this very issue is essentially BD's kryptonite.

Finally, if there is any truth about poor yields; i.e. higher expense, it very well could make other studios reconsider their loyalties sooner rather than later.

So yeah, it can be argued that this war very well could be decided by yields.

WOW DAVE. One minute after I posted my displeasure about not being able to get these numbers you came with the goods. THANK YOU. That was a phenemenal post with everything I could have asked for including information about which replicator Paramount was using. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

I do find it peculiar that Sony is not only doing the replication for Fox and Disney but that they are helping out their competitors in the replication market. I wonder if this weren't as competitive a market if they would be so generous with their information.

Great posts by Shark and Thrust as well. I have been trying to say what Thrust just said about the importance of yields for a while. Good converstation guys. Lets keep the constructive discussion flowing.

...I've got no idea what the real yields are, and I frankly don't really care. At this point in time it simply doesn't affect me on a disc-to-disc basis, save for the fact that titles from some exclusive studios (say, Fox) tend to be a bit pricier than those from WB. Now, that said, Blades of Glory was still $15 more than some WB titles on HD DVD, so the whole thing is a bit of a mess.

If I may, I'm assuming that it comes down to what you choose as your common terms of reference - clearly if it takes two months of coaster after coaster, 'till finally you get a working line with at least "middling" levels (as opposed to, what, "apocalyptic" levels?), then of course the whole story isn't being told.

Based on what I've seen Amir discuss, his terms of reference for yield numbers go back to the entire process, where the more positive spin on numbers would take into account yields when things are up and humming. A pathetic analogy - for years laser printers would publish pages-per-minute specs, leaving out how long it took for the first page to spit out. It was great that you could get 8-10ppm back in those days, but if it took you 2 minutes for the first page, and you normally just printed a couple pages, then the ppm numbers were of course way lower (printing 2 pages in this case would take 3 minutes, just as printing 10 pages would take 3 minutes).

It's all a numbers game - what's at the heart of the matter, I think, is that the scalability of BD replication is being called into question, and even taking the best numbers that have been made available bodes poorly, potentially, for long term replication. Amir has suggested repeatedly that they've had a decade to work out the kinks, and that the limitations are in part due to factors such as substrate cooling times (a fixed issue, naturally), as well as issues of complexity and technical challenge (solutions to which would also improve HD DVD replication, thus making the relative advantage ratio consistant).

However, one could easily visualize that this ratio becomes meaningless, that the difference between one process and another is a question of shorter and shorter periods of time as the technology matures.

What's distressing to me, however, is the sheer vitriol that many express about these issues of yield, or bandwidth, or disc size, as if these are all to be considered in isolation. Yields are meaningless if discs are not being sold. Bandwidth and codec selection is trumped if the masters are in poor shape (or at least their meaning is clouded by being required to work overtime).

My dip into the BR.com pool showed post after post attacking this very issue as being patently rediculous at its face, ignoring the fact that even the numbers they're trumpetting mean that the cost is still prohibitively expensive without serious support from "donations". Meanwhile, some the HD DVD crowd is cooing over these numbers, trumpetting them as some sort of anti-BD rallying cry, as if their format of choice has cast some mighty aspersion against its foe.

I'm not quite sure how it happened, how this became a team sport. I've never seen this (there weren't enough people to care when the sacd vs. dvd-audio nutbars went at each other). Similarly, I just think the arguments are getting louder, covering similar ground over an over. With many of the BD insiders retreating to an area where they are free from challenges of their peers, but also free from pointed attacks from those with a little ammunition and a lot of chutzpah.

The format "war" won't be won over yields, but it may play a role among the companies that the insiders represent. The semantics of the numbers game belies technical challenges for either format, what for one seems a limitation (longer production times and lower yield, smaller discs) may in fact be a mitigated factor (larger discs with more suplements, better codec efficiency and increased number of discs). I'm not, in other words, saying these are outside of the consumer's line of interest, but that the bigger picture seems to be lost for many. Even Amir has suggested that the battle is with DVD and torrents, not among the two competing disc types. Each has titles that do things that the other type does not, each can contribute to your own library, each has positives and negatives, and each is significantly better in terms of pq and aq than OTA, DVD, VOD, etc.

So, as more and more of AVS retreats into their respective clubhouses, and AVS breaks further apart into cliques on outside boards, I shake my head and think it was only weeks ago that we saw a flurry of good, open debate amongst the insiders and knowledgeable posters here at AVS. How everything has turned around so quickly and sharply boggles the mind, as departed insiders allow hatred and personal attacks to flourish, while a neutered insiders section continues to grasp for its identification here at AVS... I miss the good old days of mid-August, alas.

A voice of reason in the wilderness! Unfortunately, don't expect to find a lot of like minds around here.