In light of the new rule quoted below, what is your opinion how an insiders forum should be treated?

Originally Posted by AVS Notice http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/black/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11501437#post11501437)
New Rule, please read.
If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not comment on the opposing format in any way. Any comment regardless how small will result in the removal of the post by the moderators.
Please play fair.

Thank you!!

Mods, if this poll is not appropriate, please feel free to remove.

Update: The rule has been revised, though it seems to be the same as the previous rule, only worded differently. I am not sure how an industry insider can discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the competing format.

If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not disparage or bash the opposing format in any way.

The updated rule seems fine to me.

One can still talk about format differences, just not in a negative way.

IMHO, they should be able to make reasonable claims and the other side can refute them.

The new rule is an excellent idea and a step in the right direction for AVS!!!



Thank you so much for responding to the concerns your members have felt for a long time!!!


The poll will of course favor the outcome that Amir should be able to spout of anything as fact, and continue to disparage BD.


This will happen because Amir has created the "cult of Amir" at AVSforum.


Please remeber though that because of this AVSforum is no longer representative of the entire HDM market.


Avsforum should not turn its back on all Blu-ray companies, insiders, and Blu-ray consumers.

This is a step in the right direction and I look forward to the return of more BDA insiders to this site once we all see that the moderators take the rule seriously and enforce it.

What happens if an insider regularly breaks the rule? Do they get banned? Forced to post an apology that will be stickied? Does their entire company lose AVS representation?

The rule is meaningless unless there is some bite to it.

The rule as rewritten uses words (disparage, bash) that are so malleable and open to interpretation as to stifle useful debate, and is a very, very bad idea.

The new rule is an excellent idea and a step in the right direction for AVS!!!



Thank you so much for responding to the concerns your members have felt for a long time!!!


The poll will of course favor the outcome that Amir should be able to spout of anything as fact, and continue to disparage BD.


This will happen because Amir has created the "cult of Amir" at AVSforum.


Please remeber though that because of this AVSforum is no longer representative of the entire HDM market.


Avsforum should not turn its back on all Blu-ray companies, insiders, and Blu-ray consumers.

This is a step in the right direction and I look forward to the return of more BDA insiders to this site once we all see that the moderators take the rule seriously and enforce it.

Your post is proof that your post isn't true.

Your post is proof that your post isn't true.

Hmmm, in all the polls here at AVS HDDVD always wins over BD.

Questions like "what format do you prefer" go strongly in favor of HDDVD here.


Yet software sales this year show that BD is outselling HDDVD by 2:1.

Hence AVS is not representative of the entire HDM market.

This might not be that way, but many Blu-ray owners have been run off to join other websites.

It used to be polls often went the other way, around a year ago. I'm guessing that most of the hardcore BD fanboys moved to blu-ray.com, leaving the (fewer and/or less loud but still present) hardcore HD fanboys on AVS, plus the pro HD and pro BD (non fanboyish) and truely neutral here. So, it kind of colors one's perception, doesn't mean the same or 'worse' goes on elsewhere.

[Godwin's Law]That, and from all reports blu-ray.com's forums are far more nazi in their enforcement of "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Format!".[/Godwin's Law] When enforcement occurs on AVS, its pretty level handed.

Insiders should not be allowed to discuss the "other format" and should be censored

They rarely do it in the actual business world and for good reason. Most of these companies work together in other ways and have long term relationships that are beneficial. While folks love the mud slinging, it's best left to the opinion columns and advocacy sites.

The new rule is an excellent idea and a step in the right direction for AVS!!!



Thank you so much for responding to the concerns your members have felt for a long time!!!


The poll will of course favor the outcome that Amir should be able to spout of anything as fact, and continue to disparage BD.


This will happen because Amir has created the "cult of Amir" at AVSforum.


Please remeber though that because of this AVSforum is no longer representative of the entire HDM market.


Avsforum should not turn its back on all Blu-ray companies, insiders, and Blu-ray consumers.

This is a step in the right direction and I look forward to the return of more BDA insiders to this site once we all see that the moderators take the rule seriously and enforce it.

Yep, I understand that you love this because it allows you to live with in the Blu fairyland without being awakened by reality.

I frequent ps3 forum and even the teenagers on there don't bash the xbox 360 as much as the BD and HD DVD supporters on here bash each other / the other format. Of course there's plenty of biased posts to go around, but you'll see the majority of ps3 owners there sticking up for the xbox 360 and its games against the minority ps3 owners who pretend it's trash. It's about time we tried to at least pretend we are more mature than teenagers.

Agreed, less bickering and more insider information.

I think if insiders are not permitted to discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the other format, then insiders should not be permitted to respond with half-assed answers when asked a good question and non-insiders should be permitted to call them out on 'non-answers'.

Hmmm, in all the polls here at AVS HDDVD always wins over BD.

Questions like "what format do you prefer" go strongly in favor of HDDVD here.


Yet software sales this year show that BD is outselling HDDVD by 2:1.

Hence AVS is not representative of the entire HDM market.

This might not be that way, but many Blu-ray owners have been run off to join other websites.

Other neutral websites or just Blu-ray.com? I think we all know the answer to that one.

A positive outlook regarding HD DVD chased off contributing AVS members that support Blu? How come the positive HD DVD polls on this site from last year or last quarter or last month didn't chase off the Blu-bois? The Paramount announcement outed a bunch of Blu-trolls as the FUD-Monkeys that they are. It's as simple as that.

They got mad because the Paramount announcement made it obvious that many of them made too many ridiculous Blu-Kool-Aid predictions and so they left. No loss; a bunch of very aggressive, 1,000+ post-count Blu-bois disappeared and have been replaced by a bunch of less aggressive Blu-bois with less than 100 posts. One does not need to be a genius to figure out what happened; the Paramount announcement smacked them and their predictions in the face so they invented a new screen name and are being a little more careful with their rhetoric.

No good Blu-backer was chased off by anything an HD DVD fan or fan-boy did. Rational thinking Blu-ray supporters have continued to participate here on the forums. Their insight and input is appreciated by all fans of HDM.

I think if insiders are not permitted to discuss the benefits of their format without addressing the shortcomings of the other format.

Who say's they can't. From what i understand the can still talk about the shortcommings just not in a negative way, or even better if they get into the habbit of removing any spin from comments about other formats and leave them as open facts.

Who say's they can't. From what i understand the can still talk about the shortcommings just not in a negative way, or even better if they get into the habbit of removing any spin from comments about other formats and leave them as open facts.
How can discussing the shortcomings of a particular format not be negative to that particular format?

The rule as rewritten uses words (disparage, bash) that are so malleable and open to interpretation as to stifle useful debate, and is a very, very bad idea.
I agree. Those terms are highly subjective.

If what we are interested in is insider information, the insiders should speak only about the side of the business they are inside.

There should be no reason whatsoever for paidgeek to talk about HD DVD or Amir to talk about BD - it is not their area of knowledge and as such they do not have insider information to pass on.

When Amir said that BD50 was science fiction, he apparently was not speaking for himself or from his personal expertise. If that is the case, he had no business saying anything.

You don't have to be an insider to pass on rumours and stories heard from other people who are supposed insiders or experts. What we are looking for here is for insiders to say what they know to be true - not what they hear through the grapevine.

Otherwise, the 'BD50 will never happen' stories will just keep appearing and these insiders will wash their hands of any responsibility for making the statements in the first place when the statements are proven to be wrong.

I used the BD50 story as an illustration, but it applies equally to anyone who uses their position of assumed knowledge to peddle information that they don't know from their own position to be true.

How can discussing the shortcomings of a particular format not be negative to that particular format?

I have no issue with insiders presenting the known limitations of the 'other format' when discussing the advantages of their own.

It is when they appear to reveal some unknown limitation without personal knowledge of the situation that things get unstuck.

For example it is fair to say that this or that feature would not fit in the capacity of this or that format - or that PiP is not on the BD because that is not available to BD at this time.

These are things we all know well.

Statements like BD50's should sell for $200 .... not so much! (Though it makes Black Hawk Down for $13.95 at Amazon a real bargain!)

If you are going to continue calling this place the AV Science forum, you are going to have to let everything discussed here be subject to peer review from all sides... that's the way science works.

I am uncomfortable with the concept of a supposedly neutral "science" forum yielding to external pressures and censoring dissenting viewpoints... especially from those most qualified to speak on the issues being discussed.

Now, does anyone really think that it was Amir or the HD DVD insiders who were asking for this rule change?

This has all the appearance of impropriety, someone trying to rig the game, and someone trying to create an environment where misinformation can go unchallenged by those with the knowledge to disprove it.

Sounds like business as usual for the BDA, but the possibility that AVS may have been sucked into their shell game turns my stomach.

The new rule is an excellent idea and a step in the right direction for AVS!!!



Thank you so much for responding to the concerns your members have felt for a long time!!!


The poll will of course favor the outcome that Amir should be able to spout of anything as fact, and continue to disparage BD.


This will happen because Amir has created the "cult of Amir" at AVSforum.


Please remeber though that because of this AVSforum is no longer representative of the entire HDM market.


Avsforum should not turn its back on all Blu-ray companies, insiders, and Blu-ray consumers.

This is a step in the right direction and I look forward to the return of more BDA insiders to this site once we all see that the moderators take the rule seriously and enforce it.



yes we should let the insiders here speak freely as the can in the forums over at bluray.com

I would like to add that I think the insiders should only talk about their respective format and not bash the others weakness. this would go along way to ease some of the fighting around here if people didn't have the ability to quote an insider on the weakness of a competitors format.










Penton-Man
Hollywood Insider


Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 357

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieTime
P-man prepare for battle...swords fixed.

I’ll tell you one thing, when this format war is finally over and Blu-ray crushes HD VD, if some people and some red forums think that all will be forgiven (untrue statements, FUD propagation and protection, etc.)...............

and that everyone will walk hand in hand singing into the sunset……then they’re due for a big reality check.
__________________
A Blu Theater Click here









Penton-Man
Hollywood Insider


Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 357

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA
Paidgeek --

I just saw your post over at AVS saying you'd be taking a break from that forum. I certainly can't imagine how you've been continuing to post over there all this time. It is sad, though, that there will be one less voice of reason over there. Given the hugely lopsided list of "insiders" on that forum, I am starting to think it's time to just give that forum over to MS and be done with it.


I haven’t visited that forum since I broke the Stephen Nickerson (WB) news over there --except reluctantly in links provided to me from some members here in PM’s.

It’s obvious to many of us here that AVMS is just a mouthpiece for HD DVD and M$, in general, given the overwhelming bias as to the way that forum is moderated to begin with. That is why so many of us here are AVMS refugees.

As far as I’m concerned, AVMS has been this way for a long time, the recent Paramount deci$ion just peeled off more layers of the onion and exposed the forum for what it really is………..a pro HD DVD site masquerading as a “scientific” neutral site.

I suspect now, you will see some posts on their Insider’s thread in reaction to paidgeek’s decision inferring that “open” debate is the most honest and credible way to gain information about high definition optical discs.

Well I say….”Don’t piss on paidgeek and tell him it's raining.” He’s much smarter than that.

P.S.
The party was great, I missed any HD VD news today and I’m outa here for awhile on vacation. Have a happy, enjoyable Labor Day Holiday folks.

Penton
__________________
A Blu Theater Click here







Penton-Man
Hollywood Insider


Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 357

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Quote:
AVMS New Rule, please read.
If you are here as a representative from ether camp your contribution is welcomed but moving forward please do not comment on the opposing format in any way. Any comment regardless how small will result in the removal of the post by the moderators.
Please play fair.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoneFan
Don't worry thought, Amir and other M$ rifraff get free reign. The rules don't apply to them.


^ ^ ^
Translation……..
In the future, the postings of Amir or any other M$ “insider” that talks about the competing format will be deleted …………..well……… eventually when we get around to it.
Plus, no sanctions or reprimands will be given so, there’s not much downside for you naughty insiders, except of course for the energy expended in typing up the FUD.

(We mods will allow the post stay up awhile so that it can disseminate and propagate by HD DVD advocates on other threads outside the “Insider’s Thread” to get good FUD exposure that way, nevertheless).

And if the above doesn’t prove successful, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if eventually over time this new rule brings on a new generation of threads started outside the realm of the AVMS Insider’s Thread with introductions like……
“I have been told by a very credible HD DVD insider (wink) that Blu-ray can’t do this, can’t do that, is too expensive to work, etc.
Please discuss prolifically”….

And thus heralds the newest AVMS species…..^ The Surrogate Insider.
But wait, (like Amir and Andy like to say) don’t they already have one?
That movie reviewer dude that suddenly became a Paramount Studio and BD50 replication expert…………..overnight?

And most IMPORTANTLY, how about those “insiders” that are not official “representatives from either camp” but based on their past history of postings you know damn well what camp they live in...........like Tivo dealers, movie reviewers for instance.

The possible circumventions are numerous when the game is rigged to begin with. One just needs to be more creative.
__________________
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compscott, that was an eye opener, thanks.

The only "insider" that actually challenged Amir was Penton, and hes not allowed as an insider here, so it's either that both camps stick to their formats or BD insiders talk about BD, and HD DVD insiders talking about HD DVD and trashing BD.
I can see how this seems great to HD DVD fanboys :)

I definitely think any insider should be allowed to discuss "the other format", whichever it is, but "discuss" and "make untrue or misleading statements" are two different things. Considering the constant beatings/badgering certain AVS Forum insiders receive, I have no problem if these insiders respond by deflecting challenges to "the other side" as well, since it can help to point out one-sided baiting-type "questions", which do not belong in such a discussion.

The only "insider" that actually challenged Amir was Penton, and hes not allowed as an insider here, so it's either that both camps stick to their formats or BD insiders talk about BD, and HD DVD insiders talking about HD DVD and trashing BD.
I can see how this seems great to HD DVD fanboys :)


Selective distortion.

Look it up if you seriously believe that none of the BD insiders have ever talked down the HD DVD side here at AVS.

For example it is fair to say that this or that feature would not fit in the capacity of this or that format - or that PiP is not on the BD because that is not available to BD at this time.
See bolded comment. Now, how do you know that this or that feature would not fit in the capacity of this or that format? One insider will say yes, another insider will say no. Correct? They should be allowed to each defend their position.

Statements like BD50's should sell for $200 .... not so much!
Again, insiders should be permitted to defend their statement.

The only "insider" that actually challenged Amir was Penton, and hes not allowed as an insider here, so it's either that both camps stick to their formats or BD insiders talk about BD, and HD DVD insiders talking about HD DVD and trashing BD.
I can see how this seems great to HD DVD fanboys :)

I agree with with you, Insiders should not be able bash competing formats.

Sounds like business as usual for the BDA, but the possibility that AVS may have been sucked into their shell game turns my stomach.
And it seems to me that most Blu-ray supporters want censorship, instead of meaningful discussion and debate.

And it seems to me that most Blu-ray supporters want censorship, instead of meaningful discussion and debate.
Indeed. Insiders from both camps have "bashed" the other. Funny that when the BD FUD is shown o be what it is all the BD insiders disappear, fail to defend their now obviously flawed claims and it is somehow the fault of HD DVD insiders?

It seems to me that some BD insiders made predictions or other statements that were predicated on their world-view that Blu-ray was clearly winning. When the Paramount announcement came along all their BS has been shown to be just that they scattered. Now some HD DVD insiders are saying things that have an HD DVD spin to them and the BD insiders are not around to refute that spin because they no longer have a leg to stand on. So what does any good BD insider do? They resurrect an old screen-name or create a new one and then get together with the other Blu-bois and blitz the mods with demands for censorship.

It's like I've always said; the diode is Blue, but the "ray" is violet. With Sony the lie starts with the name and continues from there and any attempt at honesty from the other side is met with a storm of deception, FUD and misinformation. It is little wonder that Sony acolytes operate under the same principles.

I have no issue with insiders presenting the known limitations of the 'other format' when discussing the advantages of their own.

It is when they appear to reveal some unknown limitation without personal knowledge of the situation that things get unstuck.

For example it is fair to say that this or that feature would not fit in the capacity of this or that format - or that PiP is not on the BD because that is not available to BD at this time.

These are things we all know well.

Statements like BD50's should sell for $200 .... not so much! (Though it makes Black Hawk Down for $13.95 at Amazon a real bargain!)



My personal insider favorite is using smiley faces to suggest some damning piece of evidence that can't be discussed openly. Followed closely by snarky comments about the competition. Some insider(s) were very good at both.

Indeed. Insiders from both camps have "bashed" the other. Funny that when the BD FUD is shown o be what it is all the BD insiders disappear, fail to defend their now obviously flawed claims and it is somehow the fault of HD DVD insiders?

It seems to me that some BD insiders made predictions or other statements that were predicated on their world-view that Blu-ray was clearly winning. When the Paramount announcement came along all their BS has been shown to be just that they scattered. Now some HD DVD insiders are saying things that have an HD DVD spin to them and the BD insiders are not around to refute that spin because they no longer have a leg to stand on. So what does any good BD insider do? They resurrect an old screen-name or create a new one and then get together with the other Blu-bois and blitz the mods with demands for censorship.

It's like I've always said; the diode is Blue, but the "ray" is violet. With Sony the lie starts with the name and continues from there and any attempt at honesty from the other side is met with a storm of deception, FUD and misinformation. It is little wonder that Sony acolytes operate under the same principles.
I think HDDVD supporters got this very wrong. It’s not that Penton and other Blu supporters do not want to face the heat of scrutiny, it’s just they are tired of devoting their time and energy to what has become an overly hostile crowd. It’s common knowledge that AVS has become a stronghold for HDDVD. Honestly, I don’t blame the Blu-ray insiders. I would have left too. How long does one continue to piss in the wind before they realize it’s time to move?

I voted to not allow insiders to talk negatively about the other side. It’s not because the boys in blu have something to hide or trying to avoid tough questions, but rather to bring back some semblance of decorum to this forum. This doesn’t shield insiders from questions by forum participants, but merely prevents inflammatory rhetoric towards their competitors. Like that old saying, if you can’t say anything nice about someone, then say nothing at all. Unfortunately some insiders use their position to discredit the other side rather than promote their chosen format. It's a common defense tactic that when you have very little to go on, you attack your opponent instead. Or as WC Fields once said, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t."

I hope the moderators get a little bit tougher in bringing stability back to this forum. Posts like the one I quoted above does nothing but provokes animosity to the other side. It does nothing to further an argument. However, what’s good for the goose is also good for the gander. Blu as well as red should be held to same standard. I hate censorship, but a few folks should have been shown the door a VERY long time ago.

This should be a public poll. I think it is incredibly important that both sides be able to challenge the claims of the other. As we have all seen so many times to date misleading statements are being made which leads to confusion or misperception. If an insider makes a statement about the other side they should stand by it and be ready to back it up.

Which insider has been making false statements about the other side (and what EXACTLY were they)?

And it seems to me that most Blu-ray supporters want censorship, instead of meaningful discussion and debate.

of course most of the BD supports do, the whole BDA does. The BDA focuses more of their PR and marketing to making claims against its competition rather then putting their energy into themselfs. The claims are missleading at best, but its the only information BD supports can hold high. Its the absolute worste way to do business, and it seems BD supporter wont question it.

I own both HD DVD and BD and support HD DVD more becuase of this reason alone. If HD DVD made a public statement that "HD DVD has 63% of the disc market" and it turned out they actually meant dollars spent and the acutual reason was because Combos cost more. Damn right I would question any HD DVD insider I could find. I would also lose a lot of respect for the HD DVD side. I certainly wouldnt go around throwing that figure around various threads to make my prefered format sound better. Whats worse is someone like Talkst8t (who is "in the know") defends that garbage!!

The worst part is they make claims and there isnt even a forum to question the information they expect us to believe.

Where am I going with this?

IMHO people should be able to say anything they want about their side, or even the other side (bashing is a mistake IMO), but should allow the public to question the information. Someitmes hard questions need to be asked, but hard questions are not a form of attacks or bashing.


So its a catch 22. We want an insiders thread because it provides the opportunity for lots of great information, but we dont want a thread where people get challanged, and with all the missleading information out there that is just bound to happen.

Nothing is impossible but that is a tough one to do right.

This should be a public poll. I think it is incredibly important that both sides be able to challenge the claims of the other. As we have all seen so many times to date misleading statements are being made which leads to confusion or misperception. If an insider makes a statement about the other side they should stand by it and be ready to back it up.

Which insider has been making false statements about the other side (and what EXACTLY were they)?
This is a public poll. Just click on the totals and it'll show you who voted for what.

Insdiers should not be able to pass off their opinions, speculation or make false claims about a competing product.... as inside information.

Technically, someone like amirm... is an outsider to BD. Why does he talk about it so much and pass off his information as "insider".

You should be able to talk about a competing product.... but if you dont have proof of a claim, then you should state that its your opinion... or your own guess or deduction.

Without HD DVD insiders we would know nothing about BR. In case no one noticed, they don't like to talk about it in any real detail. And when asked important questions they just leave. Thats not an insider, it's a plant!

Yep!

Insdiers should not be able to pass off their opinions, speculation or make false claims about a competing product.... as inside information.


I think insiders should not be able to deceive AVS members with bogus marketing hyperbole and then be sheltered from peer scrutiny by the AVS mods.

Well said.