The CED article for Tuesday September 4th has some interesting tidbits on what went on behind the scenes.

Some excerpts:

Toshiba promised Paramount and DreamWorks Animation "some money" to cover costs "to jointly promote" their titles, in a deal for the studios to support HD DVD and not Blu-ray (CED Aug 21 p1), Toshiba's top HD DVD executive told Consumer Electronics Daily at IFA Friday. But reports that Toshiba paid the studios $150 million for their support are "totally wrong," Yoshihide Fujii, CEO of Toshiba's Digital Network Co., said without elaborating.

A studio would be "stupid" to accept money to back "the wrong product," Fujii said. "Sooner or later," Paramount and DreamWorks Animation would realize HD DVD "is the wrong product," if that was so, and if the endorsements were based only on payments, he said. "Only because they feel this is the right product" did Paramount and DreamWorks Animation agree to back HD DVD exclusively, Fujii said. "This is a fact," he declared.

The Toshiba exec. went on to say that in 2009 Toshiba TV's may have CELL chips in them and that he still has friends at Sony even though he thinks they are wrong on Blu-ray. Also, he says that Sony, Panasonic, and Phillips sat on the DVD Forum committee getting access to HD DVD information all while forming the BDA, and that nothing stops them from joining the BDA to learn about their specs (particularly BD-J) other than the fact that the media would report it as them jumping ship.

Seems fine to me.

So the story that bb77 promised would "blow" the roof off, is really... well... nothing.

In fact, even better, the $150 million rumour is now blown away as being false as well. The 18 months thing looks to be discredited also, as it would most certainly have been confirmed by the writer if true (not to mention that beatboy claimed it would be confirmed in this story, which it wasn't).

I agree with what the Toshiba head says - Paramount would have to truly believe in the format to make this decision.

I think it's time for people to start accepting what Paramount, Dreamworks and Viacom have all stated as being the real business reasons for the decisions... (http://www.campaignhd.com/807_Paramount_HDDVD.html)

so? i dont think FoX and Disney paid millions to Sony so that they can publish their movies in the glorious BD format !!

The CED article for Tuesday September 4th has some interesting tidbits on what went on behind the scenes.

Some excerpts:



The Toshiba exec. went on to say that in 2009 Toshiba TV's may have CELL chips in them and that he still has friends at Sony even though he thinks they are wrong on Blu-ray. Also, he says that Sony, Panasonic, and Phillips sat on the DVD Forum committee getting access to HD DVD information all while forming the BDA, and that nothing stops them from joining the BDA to learn about their specs (particularly BD-J) other than the fact that the media would report it as them jumping ship.
The problem with that is that the Blu-ray format based on MPEG2 was offered to Toshiba in 2002 which was long before Toshiba came out with HD DVD based on a violet blue laser of the exact same frequency as Blu-ray. Also, the first Blu-ray recorders came out in 2003 in Japan. When did the blue laser HD DVD standard come out?

rdjam's response is priceless. :)

Do you have the whole article? The parts you quoted were already public. And I'd highlight it a bit differently:

But reports that Toshiba paid the studios $150 million for their support are "totally wrong," Yoshihide Fujii, CEO of Toshiba's Digital Network Co., said without elaborating.Much better. :)

They switched because they got paid, period. I love how rdjam expects the guy to admit to that!

I have read this interview before. It does nothing but put more attantion on the BDA as to where this $150million rumor came from.

rdjam's response is priceless. :)

Do you have the whole article? The parts you quoted were already public. And I'd highlight it a bit differently:

Much better. :)

They switched because they got paid, period. I love how rdjam expects the guy to admit to that!

You want proof for claims made on the insider thread all day long, but you don't need any proof to believe the payoff and 18 month BS.

What a guy,

You should be disqulified from ever asking an objctive question again.

The problem with that is that the Blu-ray format based on MPEG2 was offered to Toshiba in 2002 which was long before Toshiba came out with HD DVD based on a violet blue laser of the exact same frequency as Blu-ray. Also, the first Blu-ray recorders came out in 2003 in Japan. When did the blue laser HD DVD standard come out?Point being?

There is some amazing technology in several labs around the world that if they would work in the field would revolutionize the way we live, but because they have quirks, don't work right they are still left behind closed doors and only may one day see the light of day in a product.

The thing with Blu-Ray is that it is pretty much the same thing, ignoring BD+ and the in my opinion bad choice of BD-J, a product that within the first year of it's commercilaztion already has two revisions "out" there is not something that is ready to be sold.

Toshiba must have seen a lot of these problems as well and decided to go with a technology that can be mass produced, is stable and could be a successor to the DVD. Sony and the BDA are simply stubborn, they have touted for so long that they have won and that they are superior that they just can't quietly go away.

But as the saying goes: "Der Lack ist ab."

Or this from The Economist (http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9689600), the grownups version of Time:

If both sides offer similar bribes, what was the clincher that made DreamWorks and Paramount favour HD DVD?

For a start, HD DVD is a cheaper system all around. Unlike Blu-ray, which has a much shallower (and therefore a more delicate) data layer, an HD DVD has its digital information etched deeper beneath the surface just like a conventional DVD—and can therefore be stamped out on much the same sort of equipment as a DVD. That translates into a larger profit margin for the studios.

and

That’s not all. Engineers who’ve worked with both formats say Blu-ray is a pig to program. While extremely flexible, its programming language, BD-Java, requires lots of low-level code for even the simplest of instructions. The highly skilled programmers needed to do the job don’t exactly grow on trees. And because of the program’s complexity, even the best produce their share of bug-ridden software.

By comparison, writing software for HD DVD using Microsoft’s HDi interactive technology is a doddle—with one simple command doing the task of scores of lines of BD-Java. More importantly, HDi is the key to HD DVD’s better navigation around menus, and its instinctive ability to interact with the outside world.

Yup, BD was the true successor to DVD. Toshiba and company are the ones you should thank for having two formats. I personally like having two formats.

everyone already knew Paramount got incentives(except a few die-hard HD DVD fanboys). Not many know exactly how much so there's no point in arguing about it. I'm sure Paramount will go DF again if BD's sales numbers keep the massive advantages over the next year or so.

I'll have all the movies on both formats I want anyway
I win!

yeah right .. Paramount and dreamworks to go exclusive on VideoCD if they are paid $150Mil .. !!

The problem with that is that the Blu-ray format based on MPEG2 was offered to Toshiba in 2002 which was long before Toshiba came out with HD DVD based on a violet blue laser of the exact same frequency as Blu-ray. Also, the first Blu-ray recorders came out in 2003 in Japan. When did the blue laser HD DVD standard come out?

Hey man, I love the discourse on AVS, but don't appreciate it when I start a topic and just moments later aggressive posts are made.

I was wondering what your response had to do with what the Toshiba exec. said? I started a topic with some quotes about financial incentives, then went on to paraphrase 4 things the Toshiba executive said:

-The considering of Cell chips in Toshiba TVss in 2009
-He still has friends at Sony
-3 companies sat on the DVD Forum while starting the BDA
-Toshiba doesn't join the BDA to get access to info. because they know what reaction in the media would be

His statements were factual in nature, there is really nothing to dispute. I believe your post responded with some facts as well, but I don't see what the point of them was.

I don't dispute that what you posted was true, but I don't understand what it has to do with the article or the thread I started.

Yup, BD was the true successor to DVD. Toshiba and company are the ones you should thank for having two formats.

On 19 November 2003, the DVD Forum voted to support HD DVD as the high definition successor of the standard DVD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

...you don't need any proof to believe the payoff and 18 month BS.You guys are very entertaining. He didn't tell us what the number was and those on your side want to pretend that means it's zero. And Amir refuses to detail deals between Microsoft and Toshiba so I'm left to draw my own conclusions.You should be disqulified from ever asking an objctive question again.The fact that my questions are causing this kind of irritation means I'm asking the right questions.

yeah right .. Paramount and dreamworks to go exclusive on VideoCD if they are paid $150Mil .. !!


Sigh... I know.

People, after the billions that Sony and the BDA have poured into the BD format, the PS3, etc.

And after all of the money they have spent trying to win this format war,

Why?

Why in the heck would they not spend the money to buy Paramount and seal the deal if Paramount's allegiance was for sale?

$150million? That's nothing compared to what the BDA have already sunk into this thing.

And you honestly think it was a $150million bribe that Paramount took... as if Sony would not match or exceed that offer to almost guarantee victory.

This reflects my thoughts from the very beginning of this whole thing:
1 - No serious company run by serious people would agree to bet on the wrong horse because of money.
2 - Paramount, Dreamworks and their parent Viacom are all in good shape. The do not need bribes.
3 - Bribe is a too strong word. It means corruption. The "bribe" notion was used by the BDA PR machine in order to throw dirt over HD DVD and Para/Drwks AND steal the attention from the blow such move gave to the BDA.
4 - Incentives are part of the business and are used by both sides... and that has nothing to do with bribing.
5 - HD DVD is viable business and it is good to hear that from those who have been on both sides and saw it all.
6 - This is not a sprint (like the BDA claims). It is a marathon. If you want to win, you must be able to keep it up until the end. And in order to get there, you must be a viable business.
7 - Time is not on BD's side.

Point being?

There is some amazing technology in several labs around the world that if they would work in the field would revolutionize the way we live, but because they have quirks, don't work right they are still left behind closed doors and only may one day see the light of day in a product.

The thing with Blu-Ray is that it is pretty much the same thing, ignoring BD+ and the in my opinion bad choice of BD-J, a product that within the first year of it's commercilaztion already has two revisions "out" there is not something that is ready to be sold.

Toshiba must have seen a lot of these problems as well and decided to go with a technology that can be mass produced, is stable and could be a successor to the DVD. Sony and the BDA are simply stubborn, they have touted for so long that they have won and that they are superior that they just can't quietly go away.

But as the saying goes: "Der Lack ist ab."
My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product, the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.

Sigh... I know.

People, after the billions that Sony and the BDA have poured into the BD format, the PS3, etc.

And after all of the money they have spent trying to win this format war,

Why?

Why in the heck would they not spend the money to buy Paramount and seal the deal if Paramount's allegiance was for sale?

$150million? That's nothing compared to what the BDA have already sunk into this thing.

And you honestly think it was a $150million bribe that Paramount took... as if Sony would not match or exceed that offer to almost guarantee victory.You have to see this in context too. Supposely it was a Viacom decision, they had an operating profit last quarter of 700 million, in that context the 150 Million look even more pathetic.

What must sting the BDA (and it's cheerleaders) so badly about the defection is that it wasn't someone who was exclusive to them, but someone who had seen both sides of the business and then chose a side. There is no way they can spin this in a way positive to them.

You guys are very entertaining. He didn't tell us what the number was and those on your side want to pretend that means it's zero. And Amir refuses to detail deals between Microsoft and Toshiba so I'm left to draw my own conclusions.The fact that my questions are causing this kind of irritation means I'm asking the right questions.

Your questions are causing this kind of irritation to some peeps on a message board - get people actually involved in the HD creation irritated and then you're onto something

Is it that Amir refuses to give details of the MS/Toshiba deal or is it that he can't? There is a difference. I don't know the deal between Coke and McDonalds but I don't think theres any evil plans going on behind the scene

That Yoshihide Fujii used the words "totally wrong" is telling. It tells me that Paramount did get money, but no where near 150 million. Heck, the article even appears to say that, "Toshiba promised Paramount and DreamWorks Animation "some money" to cover costs "to jointly promote" their titles". You don't say "totally wrong" when you paid 125 million. I'd say they paid somewhere around 50-75 million.

My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product,And yet they didn't start publishing movies until three years later? Why? Writing a spec is one thing, that's just "pie in the sky", until you can it actually turn it into a real product it doesn't matter who's there first.

the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.Yes, I have read that, and yet the DVD Forum voted for HD DVD not for Blu-Ray, why do you think that may be the case? Did those companies this just out of spite to anger the BDA?

Paranoid much?

Yup, BD was the true successor to DVD. Toshiba and company are the ones you should thank for having two formats. I personally like having two formats.

Where did I miss Blu-DVD being released?

Oh wait, it didn't. HD DVD. Notice the 'DVD' in there? I don't see 'DVD' in Blu-ray. Weird.

This article goes to show...nothing. Again. Whats the point? Paramount got paid. Great. Just like Disney and Fox did and I'm sure currently are to still support the format. How is this a shocker to anyone?

My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product, the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.
all of that may be true, but the Toshiba guy's point was that BDA companies were in the DVD Forum Committee learning about HD DVD specs, and that Toshiba isn't going to join the BDA because of perception, despite wanting to join to get a look at the complete specs...

Toshiba's exec. said nothing about HD DVD proposals being made before Blu-ray proposals or vice-versa. The comment was about the fact that Sony and Panasonic have full details of the inner-workings of the competition, while Toshiba doesn't despite their desire to.

Where did I miss Blu-DVD being released?

Oh wait, it didn't. HD DVD. Notice the 'DVD' in there? I don't see 'DVD' in Blu-ray. Weird.
?
Warner and Toshiba own the rights to the DVD name. Hitachi seems to believe that Blu-ray is the next gen replacement for DVD and they even say so in their ad for their Blu-ray Camcorders. Wasn't Hitachi one of the first companies to come out with DVD camcorders?

Yup, BD was the true successor to DVD. Toshiba and company are the ones you should thank for having two formats. I personally like having two formats.

everyone already knew Paramount got incentives(except a few die-hard HD DVD fanboys). Not many know exactly how much so there's no point in arguing about it. I'm sure Paramount will go DF again if BD's sales numbers keep the massive advantages over the next year or so.

I'll have all the movies on both formats I want anyway
I win!

Wait a minute. No one denied that Paramount received incentives. But the BDA accused a payoff of $150million. Those are two very different things. The BDA has always claimed the money is involved. You're conclusions are incorrect.

jer

Warner and Toshiba own the rights to the DVD name. Hitachi seems to believe that Blu-ray is the next gen replacement for DVD and they even say so in their ad for their Blu-ray Camcorders. Wasn't Hitachi one of the first companies to come out with DVD camcorders?

DVD Forum was formed for a reason and they chose HD DVD to be the succeeding format. The BDA went a different direction. Sony likes to do things their way.

jer

DVD Forum was formed for a reason and they chose HD DVD to be the succeeding format. The BDA went a different direction. Sony likes to do things their way.

jer

Sony does, and so far, they have struck out nearly every time.
Blu-ray is doing much better then Beta though.

And yet they didn't start publishing movies until three years later? Why? Writing a spec is one thing, that's just "pie in the sky", until you can it actually turn it into a real product it doesn't matter who's there first.

Yes, I have read that, and yet the DVD Forum voted for HD DVD not for Blu-Ray, why do you think that may be the case? Did those companies this just out of spite to anger the BDA?

Paranoid much?
There was a rule change. Toshiba's HD DVD "standard" did not pass the first time. Also, Toshiba and Warner did not support bringing blu-ray into the DVD forum for a vote because it would jeopardize their patent royalties for DVD.

I certainly have no problem believing they could have received quite a bit more than $150,000,000.00.



" "Only because they feel this is the right product" did Paramount and DreamWorks Animation agree to back HD DVD exclusively, Fujii said. "This is a fact," he declared. "

lol, which explains why the produced Blades of Glory on Blu-ray (superior version ). A shame for home theater enthusiast that simply want that best that only a couple have been found so far.

Noticed that it is Toshiba and not the HD DVD promotional group that is emphasised here... seems to be a cross-promotional arrangement between HD DVD players from Toshiba and HD DVD movies from Paramount.

There is certainly more consideration on the Paramount/Dreamworks side besides just incentives to go exclusive, when BDA could have afforded the same incentives. The treatment of the guys from the press at the IFA is a good example of what BDA could have afford the studios to go BD exclusive.

DVD Forum was formed for a reason and they chose HD DVD to be the succeeding format. The BDA went a different direction. Sony likes to do things their way.

jer
As it has been mentioned many times before, Toshiba likes to use the DVD forum to create an image of legitimacy and to appear non-proprietary but everyone knows that DVD is owned by Toshiba and Warner.

Sony, Panasonic and most of the BDA board are long time members of the DVD forum as are most of the contributing and general members of the BDA.

HD DVD is one of many sub-projects of the DVD forum.

There was a rule change.What was the change? Toshiba's HD DVD "standard" did not pass the first time. Also, Toshiba and Warner did not support bringing blu-ray into the DVD forum for a vote because it would jeopardize their patent royalties for DVD.How can they "support" putting something up for Vote? There is more than just Warner and Toshiba on there so if Sony would have wanted to (they are after all member on the board) put it to a vote. If that didn't happen than probably because Sony/BDA didn't want to have other people mess in their little project. The BDA is Sony's brainchild, they call a lot of the shots there, so why would they want to suddenly move into a bigger sandbox and share the playground with other kids if they think they can be king of their own mole hill?

But when you've BDA guys on the DVD forum board which keeps abstaining from making decisions, it seems that they are trying to hinder competition.

Products of similar nature should be allowed to compete for consumer dollars. Only then will consumers benefit.

What was the change? How can they "support" putting something up for Vote? There is more than just Warner and Toshiba on there so if Sony would have wanted to (they are after all member on the board) put it to a vote. If that didn't happen than probably because Sony/BDA didn't want to have other people mess in their little project. The BDA is Sony's brainchild, they call a lot of the shots there, so why would they want to suddenly move into a bigger sandbox and share the playground with other kids if they think they can be king of their own mole hill?
Use google. This has been covered many times. Sony and Panasonic (co-creators of Blu-ray) approached Toshiba and Warner outside of the DVD forum asking them if they would support bringing blu-ray into the DVD forum for standardization as no other HD media disc format existed at the time.

Any of the real insiders like Paid geek or Talkstr8 would be able to confirm this. Ask one of them in the insiders thread if you don't believe me.

But when you've BDA guys on the DVD forum board which keeps abstaining from making decisions, it seems that they are trying to hinder competition.

Products of similar nature should be allowed to compete for consumer dollars. Only then will consumers benefit.

I don't think you understand what abstaining means. They are forfeiting their vote in order to not interfere with HD DVD related business. By abstaining, they are not blocking progress of such matters.

^ But that didn't stop Blu-ray from competing. It is still in the competition... Has it been disadvantaged?

The similar cannot be said of HD DVD because of the BDA guys that are present in the Board of the DVD Forum who keeps to their interest in BD and abstains from voting whenever there is any developments for HD DVD, even for DVD. Seems like they don't want to have anything to do with DVD Forum for that matter but stayed because they want to know what the competition is doing.

Wait a minute. No one denied that Paramount received incentives. But the BDA accused a payoff of $150million. Those are two very different things. The BDA has always claimed the money is involved. You're conclusions are incorrect.

jer


One wonders why Blu Ray discs already manufactured for release by Paramount were recalled . There seems to be something very fishy about that!!!!
Why the recall and not just let the discs already done sell!!!!

:cool:

One wonders why Blu Ray discs already manufactured for release by Paramount were recalled . There seems to be something very fishy about that!!!!
Why the recall and not just let the discs already done sell!!!!

:cool:

One reason may be the contract that was done - perhaps it went into effect the moment it was signed? Also, do we know how many copies of BoG were made for Blu? It could be a very low amount just to make sure there were some out there if the deal didn't go through. I would imagine that Paramount made the deal knowing that they were getting more $ then it cost to make the discs in the least. Again, we know that money was exchanged, it says so in the article, its the $150 million that is incorrect.

But the BDA accused a payoff of $150million.No, that was two Viacom insiders talking to the New York Times, not the BDA!

No, that was two Viacom insiders talking to the New York Times, not the BDA!

http://www.tvpredictions.com/bluraypay082007.htm

This article was put up a day before the NYT article

rdjam's response is priceless. :)

Do you have the whole article? The parts you quoted were already public. And I'd highlight it a bit differently:

Much better. :)

They switched because they got paid, period. I love how rdjam expects the guy to admit to that!

Are you people so desperate that you'll even take Toshiba saying this phantom payoff was "WRONG" and still try to say it happened? You guys are incredible.


Man, Blu-ray.com is going to tear Josh apart for yet another one of his "insider" predictions that came and went and never materialized.

Are you people so desperate that you'll even take Toshiba saying this phantom payoff was "WRONG" and still try to say it happened? You guys are incredible.



They say the amount was wrong. ;)

My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product, the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.

BD is still a demo product. You can't use the words "real product" until it's actually been finalized. They may have created their first "prototype" and decided to go to market with a "prototype" but to this date, it's still not a finished product.

HD-DVD beat the BDA camp to the punch by releasing a FINALIZED FINISHED PRODUCT. Not a demo unit that WILL need to be replaced in the future to an actual PRODUCTION model.

What was the change?

As I recall, the rule change went from abstentions counting the same as a "no" vote to abstentions not counting at all.

Para got money, we have no proof how much

$10-$250 million..............


Who cares? Whatever they got is FAR more than would have received selling BR discs for a long while. MOVE ALONG PEOPLE.

Hey man, I love the discourse on AVS, but don't appreciate it when I start a topic and just moments later aggressive posts are made.

I was wondering what your response had to do with what the Toshiba exec. said? I started a topic with some quotes about financial incentives, then went on to paraphrase 4 things the Toshiba executive said:

-The considering of Cell chips in Toshiba TVss in 2009
-He still has friends at Sony
-3 companies sat on the DVD Forum while starting the BDA
-Toshiba doesn't join the BDA to get access to info. because they know what reaction in the media would be

His statements were factual in nature, there is really nothing to dispute. I believe your post responded with some facts as well, but I don't see what the point of them was.

I don't dispute that what you posted was true, but I don't understand what it has to do with the article or the thread I started.

These guys are morons. I love HD DVD and consider it the best format, but I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest with people who feel differently.

These are the sort of people who, confronted with a study that shows 99% of scientists believe in global warming and 1% who don't, say, "See, there is disagreement among scientists!"

For some unexplained reason, they must confront any positive, or even neutral statement about HD DVD, Amir, Toshibia, MS, etc. They are fanatics to the core.

If they lived centuries ago, they'd be part of the Inquisition. There is but one truth, and they alone possess it -- Blu-Ray is the one true God!

This reflects my thoughts from the very beginning of this whole thing:
1 - No serious company run by serious people would agree to bet on the wrong horse because of money.
2 - Paramount, Dreamworks and their parent Viacom are all in good shape. The do not need bribes.
3 - Bribe is a too strong word. It means corruption. The "bribe" notion was used by the BDA PR machine in order to throw dirt over HD DVD and Para/Drwks AND steal the attention from the blow such move gave to the BDA.
4 - Incentives are part of the business and are used by both sides... and that has nothing to do with bribing.
5 - HD DVD is viable business and it is good to hear that from those who have been on both sides and saw it all.
6 - This is not a sprint (like the BDA claims). It is a marathon. If you want to win, you must be able to keep it up until the end. And in order to get there, you must be a viable business.
7 - Time is not on BD's side.

Finally a very good summation of what's actually happening out there. The "truth" isn't always convenient, but if you want to survive you must deal with reality - something the BD supporters often reject and that's why I now suspect BD is going to have a much tougher time of it. I thought BD had this thing wrapped up, but I now believe that BD's inability to be self-critical may lead to its demise.

Cheers,

Grant

This is it? The BIG EARTH SHATTERING inside scoop?

Someone has got to be kidding me right?

Please show me any additional info that we already didn't have. Who cares what happened 5 years ago. We were promised an article that was to rip the covers off this "shady" deal. So where are the pictures of people getting suitcases full of cash? Or a copy of the check?

What a friggin joke!

You guys are very entertaining. He didn't tell us what the number was and those on your side want to pretend that means it's zero. And Amir refuses to detail deals between Microsoft and Toshiba so I'm left to draw my own conclusions.The fact that my questions are causing this kind of irritation means I'm asking the right questions.

I know I'm responding...but just to say this: Don't respond to this flaming. Let's ignore them and maybe they'll just go away (I know, I know. But we can wish, can't we?)

Onto the "ignore" list, buddy...

This reflects my thoughts from the very beginning of this whole thing:
1 - No serious company run by serious people would agree to bet on the wrong horse because of money.
2 - Paramount, Dreamworks and their parent Viacom are all in good shape. The do not need bribes.
3 - Bribe is a too strong word. It means corruption. The "bribe" notion was used by the BDA PR machine in order to throw dirt over HD DVD and Para/Drwks AND steal the attention from the blow such move gave to the BDA.
4 - Incentives are part of the business and are used by both sides... and that has nothing to do with bribing.
5 - HD DVD is viable business and it is good to hear that from those who have been on both sides and saw it all.
6 - This is not a sprint (like the BDA claims). It is a marathon. If you want to win, you must be able to keep it up until the end. And in order to get there, you must be a viable business.
7 - Time is not on BD's side.



I strongly disagree with you last point.

If capacity/bandwidth is a constant. (bigger discs will come on both sides)

And the BDA will have the interactivity in a certain amount of "time". How is "time" not on their side?

They have a larger base of players to work with and a 2:1 software lead.

How is "time" not on BD's side?

HD DVD survived at a 2:1 software DISADVANTAGE all year this year.

How long will it take for HD DVD to get a 2:1 software advantage? We know that BR could survive for at least 8 months AFTER that point.

At the end of the day (in "time")

1. both formats have millions of players
2. both formats have similar interactivity
3. BR has more capacity/bandwidth

Am I missing something?

Let's even change it and say HD DVD has 45g discs available before BR makes larger discs.

1. both have millions of players
2. both have similar interactivity
3. both have similar bandwidth

And now we are spinning in circles, with no end in sight.

Something no one has even brought up is, even if Toshiba FLAT OUT paid Paramount 150 mill in cash to go exclusive what difference would it make? Why are BLU-RAY only fanatics on such a witch hunt about this subject?

Even if there was a pay off it is perfectly legal to give money to other companies to partner with you for services. This is how business works. There is nothing illegal or unethical about it.

So honestly why are people still trying to dig up dirt on this deal? No matter what is found it just doesn't matter and is not going to reverse what ever deal happened.

I strongly disagree with you last point.

If capacity/bandwidth is a constant. (bigger discs will come on both sides)

And the BDA will have the interactivity in a certain amount of "time". How is "time" not on their side?

They have a larger base of players to work with and a 2:1 software lead.

How is "time" not on BD's side?

HD DVD survived at a 2:1 software DISADVANTAGE all year this year.

How long will it take for HD DVD to get a 2:1 software advantage? We know that BR could survive for at least 8 months AFTER that point.

At the end of the day (in "time")

1. both formats have millions of players
2. both formats have similar interactivity
3. BR has more capacity/bandwidth

Am I missing something?

Let's even change it and say HD DVD has 45g discs available before BR makes larger discs.

1. both have millions of players
2. both have similar interactivity
3. both have similar bandwidth

And now we are spinning in circles, with no end in sight.


Sure - beccause you are no longer discussing the article - you have changed the subject.

Sure - beccause you are no longer discussing the article - you have changed the subject.



I addressed another poster's opinion, not yours. But thanks for noticing.

something no one has even brought up is, even if Toshiba FLAT OUT paid Paramount 150 mill in cash to go exclusive what difference3 would it make? Why are BLU-RAY only fanatics on such a witch hunt about this subject?

Even if there was a pay off it is perfectly legal to give money to other companies to partner with you for services. This is how business works. There is nothing illegal or unethical about it.

So honestly why are people still trying to dig up dirt on this deal? No matter what is found it just doesn't matter and is not going to reverse what ever deal happened.

The problem for some HD DVD fans is they have been up in arms about how the BDA was giving incentives to some studios to be BD exclusive. A favorite claim of theirs was that the EU was going to investigate that and make those studios go neutral for the anti-consumer stance they took.

Those HD DVD fans now have to deal with the reality that an HD DVD studio was given incentives to take that stance.

Of course, deals like this happen all the time and it is just part of business in the real world. Unfortunately for all parties involved, the EU is not always clued into the real world.

OK so not $150 million, but $140 million?

WHAT . . . IS . . . THE . . . BIG . . .DEAL?

The fact that HD DVD beat the BDA at their own game?

Or do all the blue boys really think that Sony got Target because Target likes Sony? THEY BOUGHT ENDCAPS! No incentives - 100% money! Sony pays and Target receives,

But that was fine and dandy right?

WHAT . . . A . . . BUNCH . . . . OF . . .. HYPOCRITES!!!

WHAT . . . IS . . . THE . . . BIG . . .DEAL?

The fact that HD DVD beat the BDA at their own game?

Or do all the blue boys really think that Sony got Target because Target likes Sony? THEY BOUGHT ENDCAPS! No incentives - 100% money! Sony pays and Target receives,

But that was fine and dandy right?

WHAT . . . A . . . BUNCH . . . . OF . . .. HYPOCRITES!!!



Ummm, relax?

The panty bunching is equal on both sides of this stupid issue.

HD DVD: Para picked us because we are the bestest and we didnt have to pay.

BR: Bribery! consumer unfairness!

Get over it, this is the way it works.

Ummm, relax?

The panty bunching is equal on both sides of this stupid issue.

HD DVD: Para picked us because we are the bestest and we didnt have to pay.

BR: Bribery! consumer unfairness!

Get over it, this is the way it works.

100% Absolutely Correct! Unfortunately the BD camp is not "getting over it" and there lies the problem.

WHAT . . . IS . . . THE . . . BIG . . .DEAL?

The big deal is that now we know that the company line we were being fed was a big load of bollocks.

"Those HD DVD fans now have to deal with the reality that an HD DVD studio was given incentives to take that stance. "

Uhh who cares, sounds like the BLU-RAY fanatics are just trying to put up a strawman argument to try and reduce the damage the Paramount deal has done. Who cares why Paramount went exclusive, they did and as the distributer of their movies they have every right to put it on the format they want.

Nothing illegal was done even if there was a complete straight cash pay off, BLU-RAY only fans are freaking out and being bitter about this when Sony does the same thing.

All I see from all this deal "speculation" is a bunch of format fan boys crying sour grapes over normal business practices.

They say the amount was wrong. ;)

Meh. Sorry, and not speaking specifially to you Grubert, but that isn't going to cut it. All the little BD fanboys so hoping for a scandal of some sort kept throwing this $150 million around like it was the next Iran-Contra. First, Bill Hunt claimed it was all Microsoft, and the little sheep went BAAAAAA. Microsoft denied it and Bill had to retract.

Then it was Toshiba. AHA!! It had to be Toshiba! They gave Paramount the $150 million! SCANDAL!!! OUTRAGE!!! BLAH BLAH!!!!! And Josh proclaimed this damaging article was going to come out today and offer SHOCKING revelations about the deal that was going to shake the core of the whole arrangement. And hey, how would all you sheeple feel about Paramount going back on their deal a couple days later? Wink wink, nudge nudge, knowhatimean?

Well now Toshiba is saying "Well, sure we gave some some money to help joint promote their movies (because wow, that is just scandalous right there :rolleyes:), but this $150 million is BS". Sorry Grubert, but I doubt very seriously Toshiba went to a billion dollar studio and said "Hey, go exclusive and will help you promote your movies", and Paramount said "Wow, we need the money so badly, and we have no budget for video promotion. We'll DO IT!!!"

My scenerio is that Paramount approached the HD DVD PRG and told them they were looking at exclusively supporting HD DVD for the exact reasons they keep telling us themselves. Toshiba responded with "If you're going to do that, then we'll help you promote your movies". But once again, no magic $150 million payoff.

So now what? I see all the fanboys are still trying so hard to twist this into something that it isn't. Again, not speaking specifically to you, but you can see it happening.

Something no one has even brought up is, even if Toshiba FLAT OUT paid Paramount 150 mill in cash to go exclusive what difference would it make? Why are BLU-RAY only fanatics on such a witch hunt about this subject?

Even if there was a pay off it is perfectly legal to give money to other companies to partner with you for services. This is how business works. There is nothing illegal or unethical about it.

So honestly why are people still trying to dig up dirt on this deal? No matter what is found it just doesn't matter and is not going to reverse what ever deal happened.


100% RIGHT- Please stop EVERYBODY! We don't even need to talk about the deal anymore. BOTH sides have shelled out money to promote their product. NOTHING wrong at all.

I really think people are barking up the wrong tree if they expect anyone to truly care about this or give it any weight in what they buy. A financial outlay is just something anyone with a brain in their head assumes has been behind a dozen or more BD "deals" in this format war.

Well now Toshiba is saying "Well, sure we gave some some money to help joint promote their movies (because wow, that is just scandalous right there :rolleyes:), but this $150 million is BS". Sorry Grubert, but I doubt very seriously Toshiba went to a billion dollar studio and said "Hey, go exclusive and will help you promote your movies", and Paramount said "Wow, we need the money so badly, and we have no budget for video promotion. We'll DO IT!!!"


Everybody needs money. That's why it's called money. ;)

Everybody needs money. That's why it's called money. ;)

You're doing this with me on purpose now, aren't you? :D

Of course everyone could use money. I wouldn't have turned down any assistance either. You know what my point is.

I believe if you check Viacom's latest financial report - they have done very well.

This is not a case of helping an ailing studio out like it would be with Lionsgate ($53 million loss Q2)

The term HD DVD from DVD has as much legitimacy as the DVD asking for a RS-VHS (round shiny VHS) name to what we know today as DVD. It's meaningless outside of marketing bullets, and in some cases has caused confusion for the retailers.

Otoh, the list of members in the DVD forum is known, and the number of members on that forum who now build players and release movies for each format are also known. The history of the two rule revisions in order to pass are claimed to be known by insiders, I have no actual knowledge of this.

Note the emphasis look carefully at the members list on the DVD forum and what percentage now are on the BDA, the results could surprise you.

I do know however that Panasonic (and maybe sony) had a working prototype high density recordable cartridge based shiny disk that they've been pushing for about 7 years ago since the turn of the century.

Hearsay : The original proposal within the DVD forum was a red laser one with 720P 9Mbps, using advanced codecs and the same DVD storage requirements, that didn't last long in spite of cute demos of selective streams (9Mbps ABR is not the main problem, peak bitrate and buffering needs are the problem) .

It's when the blue violet laser got significant traction (along with the removal of the cartridge) that Toshiba scrambled to salvage their very lucrative DVD royalty business. But because of the rush, Toshiba was not able to come up with a higher density solution outside of modifying the existing DVD specs and extending it to the blu-violet laser pit sizes. If Toshiba had started two years earlier instead of holding onto the red laser, they might have found a way to match blu-ray's higher density (hence higher data throughput) instead of what they ended with. Ignoring the other details like SW and tools maturity, HDi, PiP, the conclusions from examining the media storage alone is undisputable. (I don't believe the claims of the low yields simply because yield is not a snapshot in time, it is a curve on a chart that always goes down over time).

The proposal of MPEG2 by the BD guys were because CE companies were lazy and cheap - they didn't want to pay more for advanced codec chips and they knew what the MPEG2 broadcast TV chips were selling for. But there was no real reason for MPEG2 to be the only codec.

The proposal of h.264 in HD DVD was one of necessity, to get 720P 9Mbps, h.264 was needed. Once 1080P24 became the sweetspot resolution, the need to invent a new media became dire, and the schedule was too short for Toshiba to come up with something innovative.

So that's my recollection of what happened. I was pretty much on the broadcast TV chip side of things (including seeing the specs from both sides float by my desk), so that's the extent of my knowledge.

You're doing this with me on purpose now, aren't you? :D


No, just jumping at the chance of throwing in a favorite Mamet quote. :D

Now seriously, it is important to know if there was some kind of monetary consideration, because then the Paramount decision was not determined exclusively by the inherent merits of either format. Which is one of the things we debate over here.

Additionally, paying a retailer for an endcap and paying a studio to pull support of a format ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same f***in' sport.

No, just jumping at the chance of throwing in a favorite Mamet quote. :D

David Mamet? I didn't read a lot of his stuff.

Now seriously, it is important to know if there was some kind of monetary consideration, because then the Paramount decision was not determined exclusively by the inherent merits of either format. Which is one of the things we debate over here.

Additionally, paying a retailer for an endcap and paying a studio to pull support of a format ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same f***in' sport.

I believe you still don't have this in the context in which it happened. Again, we're talking about Paramount Pictures, a $1.5 BILLION dollar studio this year. We're not talking about the little Weinstein Brothers here. Paramount can promote their own home video line without anyone's help.

My scenerio still stands. I think Paramount made this decision based on the reasons they gave publically. Toshiba's helping them to jointly promote their HD DVD movies is hardly the means to make a giant major studio jump like that. I think Toshiba offered to help them as an ante-up to their already made decision.

Even beyond that though, the whole point I've been making is that there was no payoff. There was no secret meeting in Microsoft's parking garage, level 6 where men in suits and dark glasses handed Paramount a suitcase with $150 million in cash. Apparently there was no meeting in Toshiba's garage either. You guys can argue the rest of it until the sun goes down.

No, just jumping at the chance of throwing in a favorite Mamet quote. :D

Now seriously, it is important to know if there was some kind of monetary consideration, because then the Paramount decision was not determined exclusively by the inherent merits of either format. Which is one of the things we debate over here.

Additionally, paying a retailer for an endcap and paying a studio to pull support of a format ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same f***in' sport.

So let me see, would Fox and Disney be considered in the same ballpark? Please give it a rest, how long are we going to have to listen to this argument, it's really starting to get old!

My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product, the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.

Hmm the bluray of 2002 is not the bluray of 2006

HD DVD was approved by the dvd forum based on their votes .

Basicly bluray was an attempted coup by a few dvd forum members and so far it has failed.

Well it was somewhere between the price of a Starbucks gift card and less than $150M. Can we leave it at that, or are we going to have a poll?

Well it was somewhere between the price of a Starbucks gift card and less than $150M. Can we leave it at that, or are we going to have a poll?


Famous BD Quotes:

"We won the format war!"

"Target goes BD Exclusive!"

"HD DVD will be dead in a matter of months!"

"BD has 63% of the SAL market!"

"How could this have happened?"

:D

The big deal is that now we know that the company line we were being fed was a big load of bollocks.

Only thing is a bunch of HD-DVD extremist swallowed (as they always do) and theater enthusiasts did not which has quite a bit of bitterness from them.

So let me see, would Fox and Disney be considered in the same ballpark?

I said "pull support." Fox and Disney have never supported HD DVD to begin with.

David Mamet? I didn't read a lot of his stuff.



I believe you still don't have this in the context in which it happened. Again, we're talking about Paramount Pictures, a $1.5 BILLION dollar studio this year. We're not talking about the little Weinstein Brothers here. Paramount can promote their own home video line without anyone's help.

My scenerio still stands. I think Paramount made this decision based on the reasons they gave publically. Toshiba's helping them to jointly promote their HD DVD movies is hardly the means to make a giant major studio jump like that. I think Toshiba offered to help them as an ante-up to their already made decision.

Even beyond that though, the whole point I've been making is that there was no payoff. There was no secret meeting in Microsoft's parking garage, level 6 where men in suits and dark glasses handed Paramount a suitcase with $150 million in cash. Apparently there was no meeting in Toshiba's garage either. You guys can argue the rest of it until the sun goes down.


What I find funny is that you think they would admit if that transaction did go down.

But since MS and Tosh deny it, it MUST not have happened.


I honestly can't figure out which side is worse. MOVE ON PEOPLE!

I said "pull support." Fox and Disney have never supported HD DVD to begin with.

Only because the support was never offered to them and I wonder why. Get my drift yet? ;)

Only because the support was never offered to them and I wonder why. Get my drift yet? ;)


No your drift doesnt make sense.

Neutral--->exclusive is different than continually exclusive on either side.

Only thing is a bunch of HD-DVD extremist swallowed (as they always do) and theater enthusiasts did not which has quite a bit of bitterness from them.

Brian,

Do you always need to resort to "extremists", "terrorists", "zealots", "bigots" and othersuch name-calling to make your point? You are turning out to be quite the "I like blu-ray's bigger stick" snob yourself.

If you are as much a "cost-no-bar" home theater perfectionist/afficianado as you sound to be, why don't you just upgrade from your "crippled" Xbox 360 AO for HD DVD, and invest in a decent Toshiba? The AO was never promised to be the perfect HD solution that you criticize it for not being, and the best HD DVD players are every bit as good as the best of BD players. Give them a try. You might even like them.

No your drift doesnt make sense.

Neutral--->exclusive is different than continually exclusive on either side.

There was a reason they were not neutral in the first place and that is the point I was making, but I believe you know this but decided to post something anyway. Nice Try!

Additionally, paying a retailer for an endcap and paying a studio to pull support of a format ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same f***in' sport.

Sure it is.

Sure it is.

Oh, well, thanks for putting that to rest! :(

Brian,

Do you always need to resort to "extremists", "terrorists", "zealots", "bigots" and othersuch name-calling to make your point? You are turning out to be quite the "I like blu-ray's bigger stick" snob yourself.


Don't forget lots of smileys and one-liners. I'm still trying to decipher what he said.


What I find funny is that you think they would admit if that transaction did go down.

But since MS and Tosh deny it, it MUST not have happened.

What I find funnier is how people just DON'T let it go. Paramount gave their reasons for the move. MS and Toshiba said they didn't pay off Paramount.

/story

Oh, well, thanks for putting that to rest! :(

Both are examples of allocating financial resources to create a competitive advantage in a business environment.

Both are examples of allocating financial resources to create a competitive advantage in a business environment.

And apples and oranges are examples of fruits. :rolleyes:

Brian,

Do you always need to resort to "extremists", "terrorists", "zealots", "bigots" and othersuch name-calling to make your point? You are turning out to be quite the "I like blu-ray's bigger stick" snob yourself.

If you are as much a "cost-no-bar" home theater perfectionist/afficianado as you sound to be, why don't you just upgrade from your "crippled" Xbox 360 AO for HD DVD, and invest in a decent Toshiba? The AO was never promised to be the perfect HD solution that you criticize it for not being, and the best HD DVD players are every bit as good as the best of BD players. Give them a try. You might even like them.

"Terrorists" and "bigots", you are way off base as usual. I've never used those terms with blu-ray or hd-dvd. Clearly you are just really confused as I don't own a HD DVD add-on either and never have. :rolleyes:

And apples and oranges are examples of fruits. :rolleyes:

Let's be reasonable, if that's possible. I don't know, and I expect few people on these forums do know, how much money the HD DVD group and the BDA respectively have invested in incentives or payoffs. Making assumptions based on a personal agenda doesn't provide any clarity on the issue at hand. Both sides are in this to win and both will invest money as they see fit to achieve the largest possible market share. Unless someone breaks the law, crying foul when one side or the other does what's in their best interest to do is pointless and silly.

The point is Toshiba admitted it paid cash and future incentives to P/DW for them to switch off BRD. All the BS concerning costs, HD DVD capability and customer affordability by Bell, et al, was just that, BS.

I'm not saying that Sony has not been spreading 'incentives' around, but can we at least stop pretending only one side is doing it.

Its pretty obvious that 'cover costs' + future incentives was way more than p/dw would have received in HDM profits. So, can we also please stop pretending otherwise.

BTW, the suit said "totally wrong" to $150M cash paid, what do you want to bet that the total 'incentive' package is in fact $150M? What ever the total amount turns out to be, this proves that Toshiba and the HD DVD promotional group is anything but pro-consumer. So while were at it lets stop pretending that too.

Is there really a point to arguing about this?

FACT: HD DVD supporters don't care about what sort of money changed hands, all they care about is that the other side won't get the movies they're getting.

FACT: Blu-ray supporters don't care about what sort of money changed hands, all they care about is that they can't buy the above-mentioned movies except in SD DVD anymore.

The rest of it is just pointless posturing. No one is going to change their minds over this.

The only thing I find odd about the whole situation is that Toshiba is willing to own up to the deal in the first place. That is unusual for a backroom deal, and it makes me wonder what sort of forces are acting in the background to produce this effect.

Don't forget lots of smileys and one-liners. I'm still trying to decipher what he said.




What I find funnier is how people just DON'T let it go. Paramount gave their reasons for the move. MS and Toshiba said they didn't pay off Paramount.

/story


No, I totally believe them. Seriously, I do. They have no reason to lie.

PS: I let it go when it happened. Business works that way, $$$ makes the world go around. If you don't know that, you will never come to grips with it. *shrug*

My point is that Blu-ray was on the market in 2003 as a real product, the BDA existed in 2002 and the majority of the DVD forum steering committee members were already BDA members when Warner and Toshiba pushed through the now aborted red laser DVD with MPEG 4 forerunner to HD DVD which uses the same laser as blu-ray. That forerunner was basically DVD9 with an MP4 codec instead of MPEG2 and it did not have PIP, HDI or any of the other touted features of HD DVD.


Apologies to the OP for being of topic...... ari My question is that if Toshiba and Sony both go to the DVD forum and lay out their ideas for BD and HD DVD and the forum votes for HD DVD to be the successor to DVD then how is BD the original successor to DVD. If the board votes and Sony gets ticked for waisting R&D so they get a few partners and decide to go it "alone" without the dvd forums consent does that not make them the usurper?
I enjoy movies on both formats and my OPINION is that HD DVD is more than enough to give the average home viewer the High Def experience they are looking for. It is better than anything on HD cable. As far as sound goes I love TruHD and DD+ is fine (I love the PCM tracks on BD by the way) but you have to remember that the average Joe has a HTIB not some high end system. My Parents have a Sony 2.1 Dreamsystem and when I brough Apocolypto over to play on my BD Player My Mom noticed how great the sound was But also commented on the HD DVD version of the Last Samurai and its DD+ track thinking it was just as good as Apocolypto.
While the specs for BD look great on paper and some of the disc (sound wise) seem superior to Audiophiles it meens nothing to the average consumer.
I have a friend that cant see a difference between BD, HD DVD and XLMP Downloads. He has stated that when he gets a player it will probably be HD DVD just because of the price. but right now DVD is good enough.
I guess what I am rambling about is that HD DVD was and always has been the OFFICIAL successor to HD DVD because it is a CONSUMER and corporate friendly format that closes the transistion gap that BD widens. After reading Warner's survey where most people are content with dvd and upscaling I am convinced that it won't be content that gets people to switch it will be PRICE.
People are NOT concerned about Mbps or AVC vs VC-1 nor are they concerned with PCM vs True HD or 50g vs 30g. They are concerned about which player impacts their budget less but allows them to see a few movies in High Def. And to the average consumer Ratatoullie is not worth a couple hundred dollars more than Shrek 3.

Is there really a point to arguing about this?

FACT: HD DVD supporters don't care about what sort of money changed hands, all they care about is that the other side won't get the movies they're getting.

FACT: Blu-ray supporters don't care about what sort of money changed hands, all they care about is that they can't buy the above-mentioned movies except in SD DVD anymore.

The rest of it is just pointless posturing. No one is going to change their minds over this.

The only thing I find odd about the whole situation is that Toshiba is willing to own up to the deal in the first place. That is unusual for a backroom deal, and it makes me wonder what sort of forces are acting in the background to produce this effect.

Simple. The $150M number has been thrown around and is being accepted as truth. This statement clearly says that Tosh did not pay this money. First it was MSFTs turn to deny that sort of money was piad (when the finger was first pointed to them) and now it is Toshiba....

Also, what is being lost is that the studio made up their mind to go with the better format for them - AFTER EVALUATING BOTH. This is HUGE blow to the BDA. Incredibly BIG. Hence, why they have gone out of their way to make this sound like a massive bribe of some sort. The fact is that Tosh is simply helping Paraount release titles in their format of choice.

You have to see this in the context of an overall business decision. Paramount/Dreamworks was not bribed. End of story. They were no longer interested in supporting BD. That is a fact. End of story!

How about Paramount ending the speculation by simply stating how much money they received and from whom?

No, I totally believe them. Seriously, I do. They have no reason to lie.

PS: I let it go when it happened. Business works that way, $$$ makes the world go around. If you don't know that, you will never come to grips with it. *shrug*

Sigh. You folks don't get it. I could give a rats ass what happened to make this a done deal. Toshiba said "some money". Ok, fine. Paramount told them they were going to their side, and I bet as a thank you, Toshiba hooked them up. Please, that's fine with me.

I'm just saying this huge payoff that the BD fanboys have been trying to push for the last 3 weeks as some giant scandal that shakes the foundation of America didn't happen. And everyone involved has said it didn't happen. I don't know what more you could possibly need to understand that. Unless you just don't want to believe it.

I'm telling you, some fanboy is going to start floating the idea that Paramount paid themselves the $150 million. That is how stuck in your heads this whole thing is.

How about Paramount ending the speculation by simply stating how much money they received and from whom?

How about Disney and Fox telling us how much money they received to go with the BDA first?

"No Comment" tells us squat!

How about Paramount ending the speculation by simply stating how much money they received and from whom?


Because they didn't. They think HD DVD is the best EVA!!

They just didnt want to sell 2x the copies of Transformers and Shreck 3 on BR. :D

No, I totally believe them. Seriously, I do. They have no reason to lie.

PS: I let it go when it happened. Business works that way, $$$ makes the world go around. If you don't know that, you will never come to grips with it. *shrug*


To be able to bribe the #1 studio with $150M (even if that were true) is a clear indicator of the weakness of BD as a format to replace DVD. Paramount is clearly aware that no studio has ever gone from being format neutral to supporting one and then swtich back to neutrality. To do so would be historic. Paramount has hitched their HD future to HD DVD....AFTER evaluating both formats. Again. That is a critical element in this story....they looked at BD and it came up short.

How about Paramount ending the speculation by simply stating how much money they received and from whom?

Not as important as wht you already know - that here was a studio that looked at both formats, published on both formats and decided to go exclusively with HD DVD for their HD future ;)

Not just any studio....but the #1 studio for 2007 so far.

Sigh. You folks don't get it. I could give a rats ass what happened to make this a done deal. Toshiba said "some money". Ok, fine. Paramount told them they were going to their side, and I bet as a thank you, Toshiba hooked them up. Please, that's fine with me.

I'm just saying this huge payoff that the BD fanboys have been trying to push for the last 3 weeks as some giant scandal that shakes the foundation of America didn't happen. And everyone involved has said it didn't happen. I don't know what more you could possibly need to understand that. Unless you just don't want to believe it.

I'm telling you, some fanboy is going to start floating the idea that Paramount paid themselves the $150 million. That is how stuck in your heads this whole thing is.


Scandal? It is called business.

It is quite sad though that people now take the words of Tosh, MS, Sony, Para, Pio, Panny, Sammy as gospel, when they clearly have skin in the game. But to each his own I guess.

To be able to bribe the #1 studio with $150M (even if that were true) is a clear indicator of the weakness of BD as a format to replace DVD. Paramount is clearly aware that no studio has ever gone from being format neutral to supporting one and then swtich back to neutrality. To do so would be historic. Paramount has hitched their HD future to HD DVD....AFTER evaluating both formats. Again. That is a critical element in this story....they looked at BD and it came up short.

That and they got paid.

And guess what? If it turns out that HD DVD doesnt last last (which they both will) they can turn around and release on BR. Pretty simple.

Simple. The $150M number has been thrown around and is being accepted as truth. This statement clearly says that Tosh did not pay this money. First it was MSFTs turn to deny that sort of money was piad (when the finger was first pointed to them) and now it is Toshiba....

Also, what is being lost is that the studio made up their mind to go with the better format for them - AFTER EVALUATING BOTH. This is HUGE blow to the BDA. Incredibly BIG. Hence, why they have gone out of their way to make this sound like a massive bribe of some sort. The fact is that Tosh is simply helping Paraount release titles in their format of choice.

You have to see this in the context of an overall business decision. Paramount/Dreamworks was not bribed. End of story. They were no longer interested in supporting BD. That is a fact. End of story!
Your response is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Who are you trying to convince by trotting out all this stuff? Certainly not me?

P/DW weren't bribed? Maybe, maybe not, but I believe Toshiba when they say they did offer money to Paramount/Dreamworks; they have no reason to lie about it, since it could potentially get them in trouble in some places (notably the EU). We can speculate about the amount of money, but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things (note: $149,999,999 is "totally wrong" compared to $150,000,000 since it only shares one digit in common - see, I can spin statements, too ;) ).

My question was more about why they admitted it at all. It doesn't make any sense for them to come clean about it.

My question was more about why they admitted it at all. It doesn't make any sense for them to come clean about it.
Companies do this from time to time, well some of them.

When this first started, I was a BD fanboy but maybe not as vocal, because I believed it was the superior format. But after a year or so, and watching mostly from the sidelines, it is very evident to me that BD as a format has paid more companies off than HD DVD. It is hilarious to see these BD fanboys take the par/DW deal and start crying foul...well boo friggin hoo.....The misinformation that the BD fanatics spew out every day has swayed me to the red side[although I own both and like them a lot] more and more because of the fud. I wish we could be more subjective around here.Here, I have a novel idea:

Why dont all of the studios today right now go neutral and lets see who wins then?

Simple. The $150M number has been thrown around and is being accepted as truth. This statement clearly says that Tosh did not pay this money. First it was MSFTs turn to deny that sort of money was piad (when the finger was first pointed to them) and now it is Toshiba....

Also, what is being lost is that the studio made up their mind to go with the better format for them - AFTER EVALUATING BOTH. This is HUGE blow to the BDA. Incredibly BIG. Hence, why they have gone out of their way to make this sound like a massive bribe of some sort. The fact is that Tosh is simply helping Paraount release titles in their format of choice.

You have to see this in the context of an overall business decision. Paramount/Dreamworks was not bribed. End of story. They were no longer interested in supporting BD. That is a fact. End of story!

That about sums up this whole thing. If a $150 million bribe can change the #1 studio of 2007...something is seriously wrong with Blu-ray.

When this first started, I was a BD fanboy but maybe not as vocal, because I believed it was the superior format. But after a year or so, and watching mostly from the sidelines, it is very evident to me that BD as a format has paid more companies off than HD DVD. It is hilarious to see these BD fanboys take the par/DW deal and start crying foul...well boo friggin hoo.....The misinformation that the BD fanatics spew out every day has swayed me to the red side[although I own both and like them a lot] more and more because of the fud. I wish we could be more subjective around here.Here, I have a novel idea:

Why dont all of the studios today right now go neutral and lets see who wins then?


You chose your HDM format because of fanboys on a message board?

Yikes.

This is a perfect example of how a threads like the one BB77 started 2 days ago should never happen. I truelly hope the mods warn BB77 about his tactics on AVS.

Here he posts

"Look for some very shocking information on the contract in regard to the length of the contract, Steven Spileberg films (both Directed and Produced) and also some EU grumblings."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=901631

^^^ thread was locked...big suprise :rolleyes:

Now the reality is posted and it shows nothing out of the ordinary. Certainly nothing "shocking", nothing about "Steven Spielberg", and nothing about "EU grumblings".


I have said it before and ill say it again hoping someone listens. AVS would be a much better place without threads like that. Or at least a much better place if threads like that were REQUIRED to go in the rumour thread only.

If its found that threads like that are started by the same few people over and over then there may be an even easier solution.

Companies do this from time to time, well some of them.
Let's not mince words about it.

Companies only admit to doing these sorts of things when forced at gunpoint. It tends to invite all sorts of unpleasant side effects (reporters sniffing around, government investigators sniffing around, etc.). Even in the cases where they're not admitting to something damaging, the chance of a random inquiry turning up information on something else they don't want to let slip is pretty high.

Which brings us back full circle to the question of what sort of circumstances Toshiba saw that were worse than this scenario. They didn't have to say anything. A simple "no comment" would have sufficed. So why the admission?

Let's not mince words about it.

Companies only admit to doing these sorts of things when forced at gunpoint.

Admit to doing business? why did I even bother :rolleyes:

all of that may be true, but the Toshiba guy's point was that BDA companies were in the DVD Forum Committee learning about HD DVD specs, and that Toshiba isn't going to join the BDA because of perception, despite wanting to join to get a look at the complete specs...

Toshiba's exec. said nothing about HD DVD proposals being made before Blu-ray proposals or vice-versa. The comment was about the fact that Sony and Panasonic have full details of the inner-workings of the competition, while Toshiba doesn't despite their desire to.

Non-issue, you can't get the blu-ray specs by joining the BDA. You'd need a time machine in order to get the blu-ray specs. :p

So my post is #110.

So would someone PLEASE tell me what this "new" article has said that we already didn't know? I mean the Part 1 DID promise details.

So what are the details?

Or should we ignore this and continue to dance around?

Are all these postings Pre CEDIA anticipation?

They have a larger base of players to work with and a 2:1 software lead.

How is "time" not on BD's side?Because you cannot count every single PS3 as a player, you can count them as POTENTIAL players, but if we play that game then Microsoft should count every XBOX360 and PC sold as a potential player, both of these systems can be easily retrofitted with the drives necessary to play the content, Software to do so is available for both.

It is a very dishonest way by Sony to count every PS3 as a player.

Meanwhile, you can count every XBOX360 HD DVD attachment as a player because people actually did buy it for a specific purpose: To watch movies on their XBOX360.

No he's right, the BDA is running out of time, the attach rate together with the profit margins due to lower construction start to favour HD DVD. If they have a good Q4 then there isn't really a lot that the Blu-Ray camp can do to counter this, and how long will Disney and Fox sit there and see parts of their sales evaporate? How deep is their love to Blu?

On a similar note: Where is Apple? They were a very loud proponent of Blu-Ray way back when, they are heavily invovled in the media industry, they have support in the OS already for Blu-Ray to some degree, third party software can burn BD discs (Toast), yet there is no drive (not even as an option for the MacPro) from Apple and they haven't really said a peep. For a company that tends to be at the forefront when it comes to media this is a wee bit odd.

Is there a link to the original article somewhere?

Let's not mince words about it.

Companies only admit to doing these sorts of things when forced at gunpoint. It tends to invite all sorts of unpleasant side effects (reporters sniffing around, government investigators sniffing around, etc.). Even in the cases where they're not admitting to something damaging, the chance of a random inquiry turning up information on something else they don't want to let slip is pretty high.

Which brings us back full circle to the question of what sort of circumstances Toshiba saw that were worse than this scenario. They didn't have to say anything. A simple "no comment" would have sufficed. So why the admission?

I agree. When the CEO makes damage control statements like those, something is afoot. It may be an investigation, or Viacom's own financial papers. if Viacom got financial incentives its got to be reported somewhere. Otherwise, I don't see the purpose of Toshiba's CEO making any statement on the issue.

I don't see this changing anything, but hopefully it exposes some of whats been going on behind the scenes and discourages future back room deals, on both sides.

The $150m is probably the correct figure still. I was never one to think that it was a direct cash payment (which is all that was actually denied here). Whether it's cash upfront or simply incentives worth $150m (advertising, placement, discounted production costs, discounted licensing fees, whatever), the net result is the same...Paramount saves the money.

I still don't understand what the big deal is. I fully expect business deals like this to be made and consider it perfectly fair. I know HD DVD fans are anxious to paint this as Paramount believes in HD DVD, but that is naive. In the case of this deal, Paramount can't lose either...they don't have to even believe the format is going to be a success long term for this to make sense for them as a company, since in all likelyhood they are only bound by the agreement for 18 months (yeah, that number is probably accurate too). In 18 months, the hi-def market will still be small enough that they won't have lost much even if HD DVD tanks, especially compared to the $150m in incentives they got.

If a $150 million bribe can change the #1 studio of 2007...something is seriously wrong with Blu-ray.

And something's even more critically wrong with HDDVD since it would only ever be able to must, at best, half the revenue a Blu-ray release would. If one steps away from the rhetoric for a second, it's very basic math that $150,000,000 is much larger than the revenue any studio would make for both formats combined for the forseeable future (by comparison, even 250,000 copies of $300 at even MSRP is still in the single digit millions).

As a business decision it makes total sense, especially when they can turn around in a year and a half, have a much larger installed base, and either get another bribe or then cash in on Blu-ray sales. Win-win-win from their perspective. Especially if they still have all the Blu-rays they already pressed stored away to that end.

This is a perfect example of how a threads like the one BB77 started 2 days ago should never happen. I truelly hope the mods warn BB77 about his tactics on AVS.

Here he posts

"Look for some very shocking information on the contract in regard to the length of the contract, Steven Spileberg films (both Directed and Produced) and also some EU grumblings."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=901631

^^^ thread was locked...big suprise :rolleyes:

Now the reality is posted and it shows nothing out of the ordinary. Certainly nothing "shocking", nothing about "Steven Spielberg", and nothing about "EU grumblings".


I have said it before and ill say it again hoping someone listens. AVS would be a much better place without threads like that. Or at least a much better place if threads like that were REQUIRED to go in the rumour thread only.

If its found that threads like that are started by the same few people over and over then there may be an even easier solution.

He is even getting hammered over at blu fud.com, they are laughing at him, he spins and BS's like nobody else, it's truly a joke. If he thinks 1 +1 is 3, then it is. He has TOTAL tunnel vision.

Toshiba promised Paramount and DreamWorks Animation "some money" to cover costs "to jointly promote" their titles

Ouch!!! Sounds like a partnership!! That is not good for Blu-Ray!

Paramount is clearly aware that no studio has ever gone from being format neutral to supporting one and then swtich back to neutrality. To do so would be historic.

You talk like what Paramount just did isn't unprecedented in of itself. I'm sure Paramount is clearly aware that no studio has done what they just did...either.

So once again, beatboy77 gets to post made-up rumor under the auspices of "news," getting the board in an uproar yet again, and that is perfectly acceptable...

*sigh*

"So once again, beatboy77 gets to post made-up rumor under the auspices of "news," getting the board in an uproar yet again, and that is perfectly acceptable."

Yep pretty much, he does what ever he wants here without any interference it seems. Even with an Official rumor thread he thinks he is above posting in it.

OMG! You guys make me laugh :D Has anyone actually read the Gluckman article in its entirerty? The OP is from the Toshiba press conference from last week at IFA.

Until we read the Gluckman article in its entirerty, we need to refrain from personal attacks.

~Josh

How about Paramount ending the speculation by simply stating how much money they received and from whom?

Sure...let's add Disney and Fox while we're at it, too!;)

OMG! You guys make me laugh :D Has anyone actually read the Gluckman article in its entirerty? The OP is from the Toshiba press conference from last week at IFA.

Until we read the Gluckman article in its entirerty, we need to refrain from personal attacks.

~Josh

to me its nothing personal josh. I dont know you and would probably have more in common over a beer then less in common, but the threads you start cause so much stress on AVS i just question how much value statements made today about things which should happen tomorrow really brings.

Im sure you dont like all the posts which attack you, any more then you like posting things which turn out to be false (wether its your fault or not).

A word of advice if you would take it from me. Post info from your srouces in the rumour thread. That way no one can accuse you of anything but posting a rumour of something you heard rather then something which is.


Remember the one you posted about LOTR coming to BD first in Nov in order to "even things out" becuase of the matirx release on HD DVD?

You should know that NOTHING good can come from things like that.

He is even getting hammered over at blu fud.com, they are laughing at him, he spins and BS's like nobody else, it's truly a joke. If he thinks 1 +1 is 3, then it is. He has TOTAL tunnel vision.

Here are what two of them think about ol' beaty-

as for beatboy, i think it would be in the best interest of this forum that he just refrains from posting his false hopes. his credibility is very dismal everywhere he posts and frankly im tired of getting my hopes up over nothing at all or bits of information that in reality are nothing more than fractional when they pan out and not remotely close to anything he makes it out to seem.
beatboy for the sake of us all, please save us the drama.

As anyone who posts on any number of forums can vouch, there's at least one Beatboy who believes he's the sole one-man spiritual "messiah" of every discussion board, even if he has to ad-lib furiously out of his hinder to keep the publish-or-perish attention output on a daily basis:

Doesn't matter what topic, doesn't matter where...
THERE'S ONE. ON EVERY. BOARD. :mad:

(Most of them, fortunately, manage to be the source of uproarious, if annoying comedy, even if their ego, their lack of outside interests, and their dependency on their virtual "friends" never causes them to leave.
But at least they're worth a few giggles once outed. After that, they just become pretty darn dull.)

That about sums up this whole thing. If a $150 million bribe can change the #1 studio of 2007...something is seriously wrong with Blu-ray.

No studio would leave a format that they believed was in their best interests long term, certainly not for a joint marketing program. There were incentives and there were other reasons P/DW was looking to leave Blu-ray. Any other conclusion is just ignoring the reality of a studio making such a monumental decision when it comes to HD media.

OMG! You guys make me laugh :D Has anyone actually read the Gluckman article in its entirerty? The OP is from the Toshiba press conference from last week at IFA.

Until we read the Gluckman article in its entirerty, we need to refrain from personal attacks.

~Josh

Why can't we access this article?

OMG! You guys make me laugh :D Has anyone actually read the Gluckman article in its entirerty? The OP is from the Toshiba press conference from last week at IFA.

Until we read the Gluckman article in its entirerty, we need to refrain from personal attacks.

~Josh

Is that permission to resume later?;)

I can only find snippets of this article in various forums on the internet. Strange that there'd be no outside verification of anything. Maybe we should hold off on discussing this until at least excerpts of the article exist outside of anonymous forum postings.

Parts of a new story are hitting email boxes as we speak.

Philips CEO ‘Puzzled’ at Paramount’s Motives in Backing HD DVD
BERLIN -–“I’m still puzzled at the reason why they did it and the way they did it,” Philips Consumer Electronics CEO Rudy Provoost, in an IFA interview Friday with Consumer Electronics Daily, said of Paramount’s decision
to support HD DVD only (CED Aug 21 p1). “Every scenario has a degree of probability,” and Paramount’s dropping its Blu-ray support “didn’t rank very high on my scale of probability,” Provoost told us. Paramount “apparently had reasons to believe it was worth doing,” Provoost said. Asked if he thinks promises of HD DVD cash swayed Paramount, he said “you’ll have to ask people who you think are part of that deal.” Later that day, we asked Toshiba HD DVD point man Yoshihide Fujii if Toshiba pledged money to Paramount to get its endorsement; he confirmed it had. But Fujii said reports putting the sum involved as high as $150 million were “totally wrong” (CED Sept 4 p1). Asked if the Paramount decision surprised him, Provoost joked, “In this business, nothing is a surprise anymore.” But he admitted, “to be brutally honest,” that he didn’t expect the decision “the way it went and when it happened.”

So there you have it folks, Paramount did receive money from Toshiba to not release on Blu-ray anymore.

~Josh

Parts of a new story are hitting email boxes as we speak.



So there you have it folks, Paramount did receive money from Toshiba to not release on Blu-ray anymore.

~Josh


You are incredible. The story reads exactly how the story THEY EVEN REFERENCED IN THE ARTICLE says. There was no $150 million dollars. There was "some money" to "jointly promote" Paramount's titles. There was no big payoff.

And there's still no "earth shattering" news here. It's a shame you keep trying and keep failing. The saddest part is that you don't learn. I'm being really serious here. I think you should really consider just staying at Blu-ray.com. Although I know you're losing credibility there too.

Parts of a new story are hitting email boxes as we speak.



So there you have it folks, Paramount did receive money from Toshiba to not release on Blu-ray anymore.

~Josh

And so? Who cares?
Josh, why are you still beating this dead horse? What's happened happened. Michigan lost to App State. Notre Dame got their butts whipped. Can we look forward to future news?

Wow. This is the big story that was going to blow the doors off Toshiba? This same quote from Fujii was reported at least as early as last Friday and wasn't exactly shocking then. To paraphrase your conclusion slightly: So there you have it folks, Paramount did not receive $150 million from Toshiba to stop releasing on Blu-ray. To add my own conclusion: so what if they had?

Parts of a new story are hitting email boxes as we speak.



So there you have it folks, Paramount did receive money from Toshiba to not release on Blu-ray anymore.

~Josh

And this is some kind of eye popping news? You have lost your sense of proportion... this article is so ho hum, who really cares. The Paramount deal is done... over, finit... capiche... Let it go beatboy... you are wasting everyones time... As far as many if not most of us are concerned this horse is so dead it is beyond radio carbon dating. Nothing to see here, move along now!

You are incredible. The story reads exactly how the story THEY EVEN REFERENCED IN THE ARTICLE says. There was no $150 million dollars. There was "some money" to "jointly promote" Paramount's titles. There was no big payoff.

And there's still no "earth shattering" news here. It's a shame you keep trying and keep failing. The saddest part is that you don't learn. I'm being really serious here. I think you should really consider just staying at Blu-ray.com. Although I know you're losing credibility there too.

Which heavily indicates a partnership, good news for HD DVD, bad news for Blu-Ray.

Enough is enough, I'd prefer if the Blu-Boys went back into the standard "HD DVD is dead, Microsoft hates HD DVD, Blu-Ray is better than sliced bread, etc" mode

Sure...let's add Disney and Fox while we're at it, too!;)I don't remember Disney or Fox being Format Neutral and taking away titles that were once for sale in the other format.

Which heavily indicates a partnership, good news for HD DVD, bad news for Blu-Ray.

Enough is enough, I'd prefer if the Blu-Boys went back into the standard "HD DVD is dead, Microsoft hates HD DVD, Blu-Ray is better than sliced bread, etc" mode

Personally, I think they should stick to trying to push 2:1 of a .5% total marketshare. At least with that they have something they can feel somewhat good about.

You are incredible. The story reads exactly how the story THEY EVEN REFERENCED IN THE ARTICLE says. There was no $150 million dollars. There was "some money" to "jointly promote" Paramount's titles. There was no big payoff.

And there's still no "earth shattering" news here. It's a shame you keep trying and keep failing. The saddest part is that you don't learn. I'm being really serious here. I think you should really consider just staying at Blu-ray.com. Although I know you're losing credibility there too.But Paramount told the world that it was about the Hardware platforms and the attachment rates, not about how much a hardware manufacturer paid to get that exclusivity. It made no sense to press copies of Blades Of Glory, on Blu Ray, then not sell them. Would that not be a great waste of resources? Any senseable CEO would have released those disks and then went exclusive, retaining some of the money they spent to produce them. It's about the money and the money only.

I certainly have no problem believing they could have received quite a bit more than $150,000,000.00.



" "Only because they feel this is the right product" did Paramount and DreamWorks Animation agree to back HD DVD exclusively, Fujii said. "This is a fact," he declared. "

lol, which explains why the produced Blades of Glory on Blu-ray (superior version ). A shame for home theater enthusiast that simply want that best that only a couple have been found so far.

"superior version" LOL You mean the one that plays on an obsolete machine?

But Paramount told the world that it was about the Hardware platforms and the attachment rates, not about how much a hardware manufacturer paid to get that exclusivity. It made no sense to press copies of Blades Of Glory, on Blu Ray, then not sell them. Would that not be a great waste of resources? Any senseable CEO would have released those disks and then went exclusive, retaining some of the money they spent to produce them. It's about the money and the money only.


How many did they actually press? How many did they ask for to be pressed? Until we know then I think it is silly to assume anything.

How many did they actually press? How many did they ask for to be pressed? Until we know then I think it is silly to assume anything.

He doesn't know. No one knows. If there were any "in the wild", perhaps part of the reason Paramount ended up choosing HD DVD was because they found the cost of replicating and making any amount of BoG BD's were rediculously priced as opposed to the HD DVD's they were likely making on their own lines.

No one can say for sure. One thing is for sure. The BD fanboys will be bitter about this for a long time to come. Apparently so are the insiders.

Meh. Sorry, and not speaking specifially to you Grubert, but that isn't going to cut it. All the little BD fanboys so hoping for a scandal of some sort kept throwing this $150 million around like it was the next Iran-Contra. First, Bill Hunt claimed it was all Microsoft, and the little sheep went BAAAAAA. Microsoft denied it and Bill had to retract.

Then it was Toshiba. AHA!! It had to be Toshiba! They gave Paramount the $150 million! SCANDAL!!! OUTRAGE!!! BLAH BLAH!!!!! And Josh proclaimed this damaging article was going to come out today and offer SHOCKING revelations about the deal that was going to shake the core of the whole arrangement. And hey, how would all you sheeple feel about Paramount going back on their deal a couple days later? Wink wink, nudge nudge, knowhatimean?

Well now Toshiba is saying "Well, sure we gave some some money to help joint promote their movies (because wow, that is just scandalous right there :rolleyes:), but this $150 million is BS". Sorry Grubert, but I doubt very seriously Toshiba went to a billion dollar studio and said "Hey, go exclusive and will help you promote your movies", and Paramount said "Wow, we need the money so badly, and we have no budget for video promotion. We'll DO IT!!!"

My scenerio is that Paramount approached the HD DVD PRG and told them they were looking at exclusively supporting HD DVD for the exact reasons they keep telling us themselves. Toshiba responded with "If you're going to do that, then we'll help you promote your movies". But once again, no magic $150 million payoff.

So now what? I see all the fanboys are still trying so hard to twist this into something that it isn't. Again, not speaking specifically to you, but you can see it happening.

nice post

How many did they actually press? How many did they ask for to be pressed? Until we know then I think it is silly to assume anything.Well, there is at least one for sale on E Bay, right now.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Blades-of-Glory-2007-Blu-ray-Disc-Authentic-HTF_W0QQitemZ120157148522QQihZ002QQcategoryZ617QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Like Paramont would only press one copy.

He doesn't know. No one knows. If there were any "in the wild", perhaps part of the reason Paramount ended up choosing HD DVD was because they found the cost of replicating and making any amount of BoG BD's were rediculously priced as opposed to the HD DVD's they were likely making on their own lines.

No one can say for sure. One thing is for sure. The BD fanboys will be bitter about this for a long time to come. Apparently so are the insiders.So, why didn't they sell the ones that they had made? Instead, they took the loss and ate the disks. At least a few slipped out, proving that Paramount is the liar here. They exist. Someone paid them to not release them.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Blades-of-Glory-2007-Blu-ray-Disc-Authentic-HTF_W0QQitemZ120157148522QQihZ002QQcategoryZ617QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

So, why didn't they sell the ones that they had made? Instead, they took the loss and ate the disks. At least a few slipped out, proving that Paramount is the liar here. They exist. Someone paid them to not release them.


Keep believing that if it makes you feel better.

Riddle me this then: Why didn't Paramount recall ALL their Blu-ray discs on store shelves then? Why JUST this one?

OMG! You guys make me laugh :D Has anyone actually read the Gluckman article in its entirerty? The OP is from the Toshiba press conference from last week at IFA.

Until we read the Gluckman article in its entirerty, we need to refrain from personal attacks.

~Josh

You make us all laugh! Thanks for the comedy and making AVS entertaining.

Keep believing that if it makes you feel better.

Riddle me this then: Why didn't Paramount recall ALL their Blu-ray discs on store shelves then? Why JUST this one?Because Blades Of Glory, advertised as being available on Blu Ray, was the first Paramount release, after they took the payoff and went HD DVD exclusive (again). Most of them where in transit, when they were recalled. A handful must have made it to their destination, but lord knows who has them. Paramount must have been paid for exclusivity from a certain date forward. Other titles were already for sale and not to be replenished. Now, who paid for this! It had nothing to do with attach rates and all to do about being bribed.

So, why didn't they sell the ones that they had made? Instead, they took the loss and ate the disks. At least a few slipped out, proving that Paramount is the liar here. They exist. Someone paid them to not release them.Why would they need to release the product? It has happened before that a company pulled their products of the market before they really got there.

It's not like Blades of Glory is a cinematic masterpiece.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Blades-of-Glory-2007-Blu-ray-Disc-Authentic-HTF_W0QQitemZ120157148522QQihZ002QQcategoryZ617QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem$400? Some people really have too much money. Well good for the buyer, $20 was his cost, I wonder though who sold it to the store.

Because Blades Of Glory, advertised as being available on Blu Ray, was the first Paramount release, after they took the payoff and went HD DVD exclusive (again).Again? They were always neutral until they chose HD DVD after a year.

Most of them where in transit, when they were recalled. A handful must have made it to their destination, but lord knows who has them. Paramount must have been paid for exclusivity from a certain date forward. Other titles were already for sale and not to be replenished. Now, who paid for this! It had nothing to do with attach rates and all to do about being bribed.Wow, everytime I read similar stuff out of the Blu-Ray camp the thing that comes to my mind is the "You don't leave me, *I* leave you!"

Because Blades Of Glory, advertised as being available on Blu Ray, was the first Paramount release, after they took the payoff and went HD DVD exclusive (again). Most of them where in transit, when they were recalled. A handful must have made it to their destination, but lord knows who has them. Paramount must have been paid for exclusivity from a certain date forward. Other titles were already for sale and not to be replenished. Now, who paid for this! It had nothing to do with attach rates and all to do about being bribed.

Once again, if this is what you have to believe to sleep at night, that's fine with me. What with that whole "re-education camp" crap you came up with in another thread, this is no shock that you could be this contradictory.

One day, maybe you and your crew of zealots would come up with some actual proof of this payoff. I guess until then you and Josh and the Blu-ray.com crew can keep this fantasy going to make yourselves feel better.

So the article proves that those touting the $150M figure were full of it and this is big pro-Blu-Ray news exactly how?

How pathetic.

Yup, BD was the true successor to DVD.

According to who you? That's not worth the crap on the bottom of my shoe!

lol, which explains why the produced Blades of Glory on Blu-ray (superior version ).


Link to review? Or are you just talking out of your usual end?

here you go :)

Philips CEO ‘Puzzled’ at Paramount’s Motives in Backing HD DVD
BERLIN -–“I’m still puzzled at the reason why they did it and the way they did it,” Philips Consumer Elec-
tronics CEO Rudy Provoost, in an IFA interview Friday with Consumer Electronics Daily, said of Paramount’s de-
cision to support HD DVD only (CED Aug 21 p1). “Every scenario has a degree of probability,” and Paramount’s
dropping its Blu-ray support “didn’t rank very high on my scale of probability,” Provoost told us.
Paramount “apparently had reasons to believe it was worth doing,” Provoost said. Asked if he thinks promises of HD DVD cash swayed Paramount, he said “you’ll have to ask people who you think are part of that deal.”
Later that day, we asked Toshiba HD DVD point man Yoshihide Fujii if Toshiba pledged money to Paramount to
get its endorsement; he confirmed it had. But Fujii said reports putting the sum involved as high as $150 million
were “totally wrong” (CED Sept 4 p1).
Asked if the Paramount decision surprised him, Provoost joked, “In this business, nothing is a surprise anymore.”
But he admitted, “to be brutally honest,” that he didn’t expect the decision “the way it went and when it happened.”
Having finally announced at IFA introduction of a standalone Blu-ray player for Europe, Philips “will
evolve with that market,” Provoost said. But Blu-ray won’t be “a huge source of revenue in the next 12 months,” he said. Philips at last year’s IFA said it would watch market developments before deciding when or whether to
jump in with a standalone Blu-ray player for Europe. A year ago, it said a Philips Blu-ray launch could come by
the end of Q1 2007, but that didn’t happen. “We said we had a few scenarios in the drawer,” Provoost said, recall-
ing his company’s 2006 Blu-ray strategy. “We said we would take the scenario that was in line with what the mar-
ket allows us to do or requires us to do. So indeed, we’ve been waiting.”
One reason for the wait is that the Blu-ray rollout “is going slower than I would have liked it to go,” Provoost
said. Still, some 1.6 million Blu-ray have been sold and “I see a Blockbuster or a Target making strong choices, and they
are closer to the consumer than the guys upstream in the value chain,” he said. Provoost still thinks “in good faith that the
winner is going to be blue,” he said. “And that’s not a technical discussion. For me, it’s a consumer discussion.”
“From a pure Philips perspective, we’re basically saying, let the market determine its own destiny” on
Blu-ray, Provoost said. “Let the players who have probably more at stake do their jobs,” including game de-
velopers and movie studios, he said. “We’re going to work together with them to the extent that we can afford
it, to the extent that it’s meaningful for our consumers,” he said. That’s why Philips has shared the stage at
past IFA shows with Fox Home Entertainment President Mike Dunn and Buena Vista Home Entertainment
President Bob Chapek, he said. In Blu-ray, Philips “will continue to tell the world that we believe there’s a
format there that makes more sense than the other, but we will do that in a responsible way, both financially
and commercially,” he said.
The European Information & Communications Technology Industry Association, which Provoost chairs,
has been pushing “voluntary, but collective” green initiatives, Provoost said. Of the new Philips campaign, an-
nounced at IFA, to apply a green logo to all environmentally friendly products in the line, “once in a while, you
need to lead by example,” he said. Philips has been very aggressive in promoting the green “envelope,” particu-
larly in campaigning for low-watt energy consumption in standby, Provoost said. With the Philips green logo, “we
hope that we can kind of drive a European agenda going forward,” he said.
On the Sony Take Back Recycling program recently debuted in the U.S., “I guess I regret that it is an
individual initiative,” Provoost said. It goes against “the principle of voluntary, collective agreements where
you join forces and think through all the implications and have a consistent offer to the consumer and the re-
tailer,” he said. “That is not really the case” with the Sony program, Provoost added. Asked how that hurts
recycling, Provoost said, “I’m not sure there is harm. I’m not familiar enough, to be honest with you, about
the specific economics of their decision. At Philips, we’re definitely studying what to do next, and harm or no
harm, if we should actually join them or not. At this point, it’s difficult for me to judge if this is right or
wrong.” --
Paul Gluckman, Barry Fox

...how many times does someone get to cry wolf before they are either no longer listened to, or at least their thread creation privileges are taken away for a time...?

enquiring minds want to know...

I’ve never been a “grassy knoll” conspiracy theorist, but this particular studio deal merits scrutiny. For Toshiba to publicly admit that some form of monetary incentive was transferred to Paramount/Dreamworks speaks volumes. The issue, at least to me, was not that a studio announced exclusivity, but rather was it in violation of anti-trust laws? I know many HDDVD supporters will disagree with my assessment, but this deal has the stench of a company that was bought off to change its allegiance. Very little concern was given to market conditions, consumers, depletion of current BD inventory (i.e Blades of Glory), or to allowing employees and studio infrastructure to shift gears. Literally overnight, P/DW went from being a neutral format supporter to a company that appeared overtly hostile to the BDA as well disenfranchising approximately 70% of the market. One has to wonder how many bridges Paramount/Dreamworks burned by accepting this deal with the Devil.

As a preemptive move, in order to diffuse anti-trust accusations, Toshiba probably decided that is was prudent to admit parts of the business deal up front before it was allowed to fester into a full blown scandal. Toshiba may have also realized that the BDA was not going to allow such an action to go unchallenged. It would not surprise me at all if an anti-trust suit has already been filed both in the US and the EU.

While this deal could easily blow up in Toshiba’s face, honestly, I don’t think the HDDVD group really had any choice. It was either convince a studio(s) to announce HDDVD exclusivity or get clobbered this holiday season. It was a huge gamble, but at this point Toshiba’s options are somewhat limited.

Wow, what an earth shattering news story. Hyped to death no less. I am afraid it is time for the ignore button.

But Paramount told the world that it was about the Hardware platforms and the attachment rates, not about how much a hardware manufacturer paid to get that exclusivity. It made no sense to press copies of Blades Of Glory, on Blu Ray, then not sell them. Would that not be a great waste of resources? Any senseable CEO would have released those disks and then went exclusive, retaining some of the money they spent to produce them. It's about the money and the money only.

It clearly WAS all those things...and then they got a partnership and cross-promotion incentives in addition--a nice cherry on top of a tall sundae!:cool:

I’ve never been a “grassy knoll” conspiracy theorist, but this particular studio deal merits scrutiny. For Toshiba to publicly admit that some form of monetary incentive was transferred to Paramount/Dreamworks speaks volumes. The issue, at least to me, was not that a studio announced exclusivity, but rather was it in violation of anti-trust laws? I know many HDDVD supporters will disagree with my assessment, but this deal has the stench of a company that was bought off to change its allegiance. Very little concern was given to market conditions, consumers, depletion of current BD inventory (i.e Blades of Glory), or to allowing employees and studio infrastructure to shift gears. Literally overnight, P/DW went from being a neutral format supporter to a company that appeared overtly hostile to the BDA as well disenfranchising approximately 70% of the market. One has to wonder how many bridges Paramount/Dreamworks burned by accepting this deal with the Devil.

As a preemptive move, in order to diffuse anti-trust accusations, Toshiba probably decided that is was prudent to admit parts of the business deal up front before it was allowed to fester into a full blown scandal. Toshiba may have also realized that the BDA was not going to allow such an action to go unchallenged. It would not surprise me at all if an anti-trust suit has already been filed both in the US and the EU.

While this deal could easily blow up in Toshiba’s face, honestly, I don’t think the HDDVD group really had any choice. It was either convince a studio(s) to announce HDDVD exclusivity or get clobbered this holiday season. It was a huge gamble, but at this point Toshiba’s options are somewhat limited.

Wha...????!!!:eek:

Wha...????!!!:eek:

Amazing isn't it when some of the BD.com members begin to post here at AVS. :eek:

I do try to see their point of view . . . but the only way I am successful is if I am standing on my head!:D

Philips CEO ‘Puzzled’ at Paramount’s Motives in Backing HD DVD
<article removed>


Interesting read, thanks for posting. I definitely like this Philips CEO a LOT more than the Panasonic and Sony people.

Sounds like he certainly would like BD to win, but he's being realistic about it. Not at all like the dogma from the Panasonic and Sony camps.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Blades-of-Glory-2007-Blu-ray-Disc-Authentic-HTF_W0QQitemZ120157148522QQihZ002QQcategoryZ617QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Holy Crap! BD zealousy taken to a new level!

For that price, the high bidder could buy an HD DVD player, Blades Of Glory on HD DVD, and 5 additional movies!

Holy Crap! BD zealousy taken to a new level!

For that price, the high bidder could buy an HD DVD player, Blades Of Glory on HD DVD, and 5 additional movies!

Now, now, I wouldn't call that zealotry. I'd call that a true collectible. After all none were EVER released.

But Paramount told the world that it was about the Hardware platforms and the attachment rates, not about how much a hardware manufacturer paid to get that exclusivity. It made no sense to press copies of Blades Of Glory, on Blu Ray, then not sell them. Would that not be a great waste of resources? Any senseable CEO would have released those disks and then went exclusive, retaining some of the money they spent to produce them. It's about the money and the money only.

Prince,

Why are you so concerned about the deal Paramount made? The primary objective of all businesses is to make a profit. They made a deal which they felt had the best prospect towards that objective. As long as it's not illegal, why are you so obsessed with it? Get over it already!

Why aren't you more concerned with the business tactics of the BDA? Don't you realize that the BDA business model is designed to soak as much money from YOU, the customer, as they can?

Releasing players prematurely with incomplete specs in an attempt to get you to upgrade every year doesn't bother you?

How about Fox's decision to release a lesser version of Die Hard 4 on BD than on SD DVD in order to get you to double/triple dip?

Why aren't you more outraged about those kinds of things!?!

Amazing isn't it when some of the BD.com members begin to post here at AVS. :eek:

I do try to see their point of view . . . but the only way I am successful is if I am standing on my head!:D

BD.com? I only joined the blu forum several months ago and have only posted a few times (about 20+). And why should it matter anyway? It's a fan site. Of course the people are going to be enthusiastic abou the format. I don't understand why so many HDDVD supporters denigrate blu-ray.com when the conduct on AVS is much more vitriolic.

Because Blades Of Glory, advertised as being available on Blu Ray, was the first Paramount release, after they took the payoff and went HD DVD exclusive (again). Most of them where in transit, when they were recalled. A handful must have made it to their destination, but lord knows who has them. Paramount must have been paid for exclusivity from a certain date forward. Other titles were already for sale and not to be replenished. Now, who paid for this! It had nothing to do with attach rates and all to do about being bribed.

It is not a bribe, give it up. If you manufacture a product and I want to be the exclusive dealer of your product then I have to pay you for those rights. Payment can take many forms, such as cash up front or promotional money to help with the success of your product. Now if there are two competing sides that want to carry your product exclusively then you have to decide which would be best for you. It would be pretty stupid to just look at the money offered up front and not look at the whole picture. Selling movies is how Paramount makes their money. They are not going to lock themselves into a losing format just for cash up front. Now doesn't it look pretty silly to say the cash (if there was any cash up front) is the only reason Paramount went with HD DVD.

Paramount stated the reason they went exclusive with HD DVD. It is cheaper for them to make, hence more profit. Sure it maybe cheaper for the consumer, but Paramount and others only care about the consumer saving money as long as in the long term it means profit for them. Sure well all may get a "cheaper" format, but HD DVD people, wake up. It is only because it is more profitable to the corps, not because they give a good damn about you.

Blu-ray is doing much better then Beta though.

I'd dispute that, I think Beta did quite well over it's lifespan, Sony made gear for 10 years. I'd be surprised if the loosing HD format limps on for that long!

nix};11644307']I'd dispute that, I think Beta did quite well over it's lifespan, Sony made gear for 10 years. I'd be surprised if the loosing HD format limps on for that long!You must mean HD DVD ?

Blu_Ray suxs, plain & simple. HD-DVD for now is the best option until the US Gov't replaces/upgrades our current Internet Network to compete w/ Japan's & then HD content D/L over the Internet replaces both these HD formats, but until then I'm sticking w/ HD-DVD!

The fact that my questions are causing this kind of irritation means I'm asking the right questions.

no the fact that your questions are cousing this kind of irritation only means that the questions are irritating. Everything else are just conjenctures.

I’ve never been a “grassy knoll” conspiracy theorist, but this particular studio deal merits scrutiny. For Toshiba to publicly admit that some form of monetary incentive was transferred to Paramount/Dreamworks speaks volumes. The issue, at least to me, was not that a studio announced exclusivity, but rather was it in violation of anti-trust laws? I know many HDDVD supporters will disagree with my assessment, but this deal has the stench of a company that was bought off to change its allegiance. Very little concern was given to market conditions, consumers, depletion of current BD inventory (i.e Blades of Glory), or to allowing employees and studio infrastructure to shift gears. Literally overnight, P/DW went from being a neutral format supporter to a company that appeared overtly hostile to the BDA as well disenfranchising approximately 70% of the market. One has to wonder how many bridges Paramount/Dreamworks burned by accepting this deal with the Devil.

As a preemptive move, in order to diffuse anti-trust accusations, Toshiba probably decided that is was prudent to admit parts of the business deal up front before it was allowed to fester into a full blown scandal. Toshiba may have also realized that the BDA was not going to allow such an action to go unchallenged. It would not surprise me at all if an anti-trust suit has already been filed both in the US and the EU.

While this deal could easily blow up in Toshiba’s face, honestly, I don’t think the HDDVD group really had any choice. It was either convince a studio(s) to announce HDDVD exclusivity or get clobbered this holiday season. It was a huge gamble, but at this point Toshiba’s options are somewhat limited.

There won't be any anti-trust challenges by the BDA - that's for sure! They would expose themselves to challenges as well so that's a no go! Nobody is going to any government agency in this battle - it's all about cutting off distribution for the opposing format. First Block Buster then Target and for now, last but not least Paramount. There's an old expression that applies here, "If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen!".

Personally I'm planning on supporting VMD - both Sony and Toshiba can stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If my HD DVD and BD software become orphans then so be it. I am sick of all this hypocritical bickering.

Cheers,

Grant

I’ve never been a “grassy knoll” conspiracy theorist, but this particular studio deal merits scrutiny. For Toshiba to publicly admit that some form of monetary incentive was transferred to Paramount/Dreamworks speaks volumes. The issue, at least to me, was not that a studio announced exclusivity, but rather was it in violation of anti-trust laws? I know many HDDVD supporters will disagree with my assessment, but this deal has the stench of a company that was bought off to change its allegiance. Very little concern was given to market conditions, consumers, depletion of current BD inventory (i.e Blades of Glory), or to allowing employees and studio infrastructure to shift gears. Literally overnight, P/DW went from being a neutral format supporter to a company that appeared overtly hostile to the BDA as well disenfranchising approximately 70% of the market. One has to wonder how many bridges Paramount/Dreamworks burned by accepting this deal with the Devil.

As a preemptive move, in order to diffuse anti-trust accusations, Toshiba probably decided that is was prudent to admit parts of the business deal up front before it was allowed to fester into a full blown scandal. Toshiba may have also realized that the BDA was not going to allow such an action to go unchallenged. It would not surprise me at all if an anti-trust suit has already been filed both in the US and the EU.

While this deal could easily blow up in Toshiba’s face, honestly, I don’t think the HDDVD group really had any choice. It was either convince a studio(s) to announce HDDVD exclusivity or get clobbered this holiday season. It was a huge gamble, but at this point Toshiba’s options are somewhat limited.

I thought i had read something to this in the past in regards to the EU but it appears they were more interetsed in blu-ray at the time. Here is a summary you need a subscription to read the whole thing http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118341745768555943.html?mod=rss_whats_news_technology%22,, 0,0,,,,

Also here is another site with the main points
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070703-european-commission-to-hollywood-why-is-blu-ray-winning.html