http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/CEDIA/Toshiba_Refutes_Sonys_Claims_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

Wow.




That's a surprise.



Yawn.

If there's someone who's gonna smack the mouths of Sony, I'm glad its Toshiba

From Toshiba's press release answering Sony:

" Based on July data from NPD, Toshiba had a 55% market share year to date in high definition stand alone player sales followed by all Blu-ray companies at a combined 42%; the final 3 percent is held by dual format players."

Is it me or does the fact Blu-ray stand alones have a 42% market share makes BD look more formidable (given the prices they sell for) than HD-DVD? I was under the impression Toshiba was slaughtering BD in stand-alones, but 42 isn't that far off from 55. Me thinks Toshiba inadvertedly has given ammunition to BD loyalists about their format's stand-alone penetration. :(

If there's someone who's gonna smack the mouths of Sony, I'm glad its Toshiba
Wow.

That too would be a surprise.....Yawn.

If you read this forum, you'd think Blu Ray had only 108% of standalone sales....Good to see that it is even.

Based on July data from NPD, Toshiba had a 55% market share year to date in high definition stand alone player sales followed by all Blu-ray companies at a combined 42%; the final 3 percent is held by dual format players.

YTD: 55/42/3

While the competition may claim leadership based on one month of data, Toshiba has had continued sales leadership in every month since the original HD DVD players launched 17 months ago.


http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6858/bdslidetm1.jpg

Duh.

Toshiba is aware that time doesn't stand still right? Do they really think we are still in July?

What is the next press release going to say? "We sold more discs than Blu-ray back in 2006."

I'll be glad to smack Sony.

Hmm......that is very interesting

Nothing in the statement refuted the fact that Blu-ray stand alones has been outselling HD-DVD standalones RECENTLY:

Toshiba had a 55% market share year to date in high definition stand alone player sales followed by all Blu-ray companies at a combined 42%; the final 3 percent is held by dual format players.

The wording they used that that Toshiba has a 55%/45% YTD lead, which we know is true.

Let's see what August did POST Paramount/Dreamworks and $200 Amazon special.

55/42/3 may be 58/39/3

By the way. Year to date is not as good as since inception for HD DVD.

It doesn't really matter much at this stage, I bet last weeks figures will show HD DVD took the lead again. What really matters is November and December, that is when most of the players will be sold.

So basically Toshiba admitted that what Sony said was true.

Namely, that Blu-ray Disc set-top players have begun out-selling HD DVD set-top players.

No it doesn't make it true, it's too short of a period. Right now with what happened last week HD DVD is certainly back in the lead.

So basically Toshiba admitted that what Sony said was true.

Namely, that Blu-ray Disc set-top players have begun out-selling HD DVD set-top players.

The prevailing notion here is that HD-DVD stand alone players were slaughtering Blu-ray standalones the same way the PS3 has been killing HD-DVD players when its included, but in reality it is not. A 55%/45% lead is not that big when the PS3 is not counted and can be easily overcome this holiday season. Hopefully, they will bring out the $300 Sony blu-ray player.

So basically Toshiba admitted that what Sony said was true.

Namely, that Blu-ray Disc set-top players have begun out-selling HD DVD set-top players.

If that holds true, and it is quite an if, then we could still see a quick end to the format war.

These quick ends to the war have a habbit of not ending quickly.

YTD 55:42 for standalone, assuming no x360 counted. Then this is a lot smaller lead than we thought. Note the months when HD DVD enjoyed 80:20 and 70:30 leads.

This says that S300 must have sold some respectable units to bring the ratio so close. Very surprising for something that streets with almost 2.5X the price.

Just out of curiosity, I took the 55:42:3 ratios and did the following :

(55*1) : (2.5*42) : (4*3)
and I get something like :

32:61:7

which is not too far from the YTD revenue numbers floated around.

---

Here's stating the obvious, but for units to go from 70:30 in ratio to 55:42 YTD would require a month of a lot of sales on the blue format.

If the unit YTD sales are really as close as Toshiba is now stating, I think it's fairly clear to everyone here that BD players pricing is not as big a problem at this point. This won't be enough for BDA people to lower their pricing to the $200 range. I expect they think that if $499 and $700 is allowing them to do this well, moving below 400 in the short term is unlikely.

But Sony said they had over 60% of the stand alone market :eek:

Nothing like the facts to smack Sony across the face.

Heh, 13 points YTD lead from Toshiba with a steady 50% lesser MSRP on bottom feeder models? At least they've increased from 52-48. :o

Lost last month by 12 points though... very interesting to finally get some numbers on all this. :)

This does show one thing, 4.5M PS3s are pretty much irrelevant. They are contributing very little to disc sales.

YTD 55:42 for standalone, assuming no x360 counted. Then this is a lot smaller lead than we thought. Note the months when HD DVD enjoyed 80:20 and 70:30 leads.

This says that S300 must have sold some respectable units to bring the ratio so close. Very surprising for something that streets with almost 2.5X the price.

Just out of curiosity, I took the 55:42:3 ratios and did the following :

(55*1) : (2.5*42) : (4*3)
and I get something like :

32:61:7

which is not too far from the YTD revenue numbers floated around.

---

Here's stating the obvious, but for units to go from 70:30 in ratio to 55:42 YTD would require a month of a lot of sales on the blue format.

If the unit YTD sales are really as close as Toshiba is now stating, I think it's fairly clear to everyone here that BD players pricing is not as big a problem at this point. This won't be enough for BDA people to lower their pricing to the $200 range. I expect they think that if $499 and $700 is allowing them to do this well, moving below 400 in the short term is unlikely.

Good Analysis. But if Sony and BDA really want to end this format war, they MUST get the price of the lowest stand alone to $300 to boost their sales for the holiday season. I strongly believe the BD-S300 will retail for $299-$350 after Black Friday.

Wow.




That's a surprise.



Yawn.

Sony caught misinforming again - that is a yawn :)

This does show one thing, 4.5M PS3s are pretty much irrelevant. They are contributing very little to disc sales.

Yep.

Which means that

Blu-ray attach rates are much better than we thought!

:D

These numbers are really pretty meaningless right now since it's been mostly early adopters buyimg. What will be important is now that the new players are coming in at prices that the average consumer can pay these numbers will be quite a bit different come the holidays.

The next 3 months are all that matters now. Then we will see who has a chance at mass adoption and who doesn't. Should be very interesting indeed!

I'm sure Sony's numbers reflect the number of players sold to retailers just like they do with everything else they sell.

This does show one thing, 4.5M PS3s are pretty much irrelevant. They are contributing very little to disc sales.

You should invent something. Call it the "Jump to Conclusions" mat... Why are you including the world PS3 numbers when we only ever compare disc sales by region (usually just North America if not just the US for Nielsen/Videoscan)? Are these numbers world wide or limited to NA/US?

If one was to make an assumption, it would be reasonable to assume that without the PS3, that HDDVD software would have a similar small lead on software disc sales. So that would leave the the additional mulltiple (and change) that Blu-ray disc sales enjoy is solely due to the PS3. Not a great attach rate but enough to turn a slight 12 point or so deficit into a 100 point lead.

Very little indeed.

YTD 55:42 for standalone, assuming no x360 counted. Then this is a lot smaller lead than we thought. Note the months when HD DVD enjoyed 80:20 and 70:30 leads.

This says that S300 must have sold some respectable units to bring the ratio so close. Very surprising for something that streets with almost 2.5X the price.

Just out of curiosity, I took the 55:42:3 ratios and did the following :

(55*1) : (2.5*42) : (4*3)
and I get something like :

32:61:7

which is not too far from the YTD revenue numbers floated around.

---

Here's stating the obvious, but for units to go from 70:30 in ratio to 55:42 YTD would require a month of a lot of sales on the blue format.

If the unit YTD sales are really as close as Toshiba is now stating, I think it's fairly clear to everyone here that BD players pricing is not as big a problem at this point. This won't be enough for BDA people to lower their pricing to the $200 range. I expect they think that if $499 and $700 is allowing them to do this well, moving below 400 in the short term is unlikely.

Neo, I believe you are forgetting that in Feb or so NPD had the ratio at 52:48 for HD DVD. So, since Feb of 2007 the ratio has increased. More importantly, BD apparently outsold HD DVD for one month only.

Also, not all HD DVD players sold were the A-2. The A-20 and XA-2 are quite close to what the Sony goes for....

Latest Up To Date Standalone Sales Chart

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/fruit.jpg

It Reads From Left To Right

:D

From Toshiba's press release answering Sony:



Is it me or does the fact Blu-ray stand alones have a 42% market share makes BD look more formidable (given the prices they sell for) than HD-DVD? I was under the impression Toshiba was slaughtering BD in stand-alones, but 42 isn't that far off from 55. Me thinks Toshiba inadvertedly has given ammunition to BD loyalists about their format's stand-alone penetration. :(

Well....me thinks that as HD-DVD prices go even lower as we get closer to X-mas, the gap will widen even more. Keep the Faith.

So basically Toshiba admitted that what Sony said was true.

Namely, that Blu-ray Disc set-top players have begun out-selling HD DVD set-top players.

Did they say that BD was outselling HD DVD in the last month of data? I must have missed that....all it said that one out of 17 months BD stand alone sales exceeded HD DVD standalone player sales...

OK this is bothering me. There is a big jump in BR sales where they pass HD DVD. What are the dates for that? It looks like the same time as the PS3 price reduction. What else was there? Do the dates end before the big A2 price reduction? They are kind of blurry.

Didn't the S300 come out right around the same time as the PS3 price drop? And the cheaper/re-chassis Panny right around the same time?

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?

HD DVD:
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)


Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the answer to this one...

Toshiba is aware that time doesn't stand still right? Do they really think we are still in July?

What is the next press release going to say? "We sold more discs than Blu-ray back in 2006."

The Toshiba data is newer than the Sony data that you guys are so proud of.

Hmm......that is very interesting

Nothing in the statement refuted the fact that Blu-ray stand alones has been outselling HD-DVD standalones RECENTLY:




Are you sure?
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6473061.html?industryid=47213

Neo, I believe you are forgetting that in Feb or so NPD had the ratio at 52:48 for HD DVD. So, since Feb of 2007 the ratio has increased. More importantly, BD apparently outsold HD DVD for one month only.

Also, not all HD DVD players sold were the A-2. The A-20 and XA-2 are quite close to what the Sony goes for....

Yes, but we all thought for a long time that ever since HD-A2 was selling for $250 and below street that the number has been 70:30, and it turns out for a few months (pre S300), it was around 70:30 and 80:20, and in fact 70:30 is the number floated around. We all believed that HD DVD standalone players must be slaughtering BD players because the cheapest BD player (S300) streets $450 > 2X the cheapest HD DVD player (HD-A2) $219.

Even accounting for earlier sales before S300, the HD-A2 was selling at mostly around $250, a very good price even for a decent upscaling player.

The idea that the PS3 can cause such a large difference is understood by sheer numbers of a gaming console, but a standalone player (S300) that costs twice HD-A2 to sell well enough to swing things that much must be very surprising to people here.

Are you sure?
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6473061.html?industryid=47213

Don't know if NPD includes amazon, but for movies it does, so amazon could be part of NPD data. Once we get the total sales data for the entire US market, individual retailers become less interesting to follow.

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?

HD DVD:
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)


Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the answer to this one...

You left out Integra, Alpine, Shinco, LG, & Samsung from your HD DVD list. Lite-On also manufactures HD DVD drives. Also, that Funai BD player is vaporware, it'll never see the light of day.

Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)
...

Do any of these support the new 1.1 profile?:confused:

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?
...

Funny post. Left out some HD DVD brands. And then claimed that the Onkyo costs as much as the $1300 Sony player and others that are not even 1.1 compliant.

.

Do any of these support the new 1.1 profile?:confused:

Only Daewoo and Denon have announced pubically they will be fully compliant.

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?

HD DVD:
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)


Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the answer to this one...

Why do you list Samsung and LG under BD as dual, but not HD DVD? Where is integra fo HD DHD

Should HD DVD look more like
Toshiba
RCA
Onkyo
Venturer
Integra
LG
Samsung

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?

HD DVD:
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)


Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the answer to this one...

Then why are you guessing wrong? How many of these players from all the ce's exist or will be available in the next 3 months? How many will meet the 1.1 requirement.

1.1 compliance may not matter much now. But, when the studios start releasing content that uses it there will be some very upset people out there.

Why do you list Samsung and LG under BD as dual, but not HD DVD? Where is integra fo HD DHD

Should HD DVD look more like
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)
Integra (you didnt have that in your list before)
LG (dual)
Samsung (dual)

If BD lists Funai (which is BS) then you should change Venturer to Alco Electronics - they are a huge Chinese CEM. Venturer is a dist. of Alco - contract made for Venturer using their name.

Harmon Kardon?
JVC?

Why do you guys pay any attention to what either side says? I look at all of this stuff as mostly BS. GIve it another 6 months to a year then lets see.

You left out Integra, Alpine, Shinco, LG, & Samsung from your HD DVD list. Lite-On also manufactures HD DVD drives. Also, that Funai BD player is vaporware, it'll never see the light of day.

The Funai player is not vaporware. Don't know if BDA will certify them fast enough for xmas though. HK is likely still vaporware at this point as they probably will just bundle an existing player.

The Funai player is not vaporware. Don't know if BDA will certify them fast enough for xmas though. HK is likely still vaporware at this point as they probably will just bundle an existing player.

Link to Funai announcement that says they will be making BD players . . . CEDIA? . . . . IFA?

They showed a mockup at IFA. That is all. Call it the BD TL51:D

YTD: 55/42/3



http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6858/bdslidetm1.jpg

Duh.

What on earth supposedly happened at the end of June? I don't recall anyone noticing anything that would warrant a swing like that chart indicates. Did we see any news then regarding price promotion or anything else that would provoke a HUGE immediate switch in sales like this chart indicates? Assuming that HD DVD stand alones didn't exactly drop dead then Blu Ray must have had a tremendous upswing that week that continued untill now. I don't recall a single poster posting anyting indicating that in all the time since.

This supposed change is actually the most surprising/unexpected/unbelievable supposedly true chart I've ever seen in regard to this war. And if true why on earth hasn't Sony/BDA used it until now? It's supposed to have happened 2½ months ago?

Looking at it again it looks like HD DVD was at almost 80% this summer. Unbelievable high and I think it's likely that this chart does not count the add on either.

The Funai player is not vaporware. Don't know if BDA will certify them fast enough for xmas though. HK is likely still vaporware at this point as they probably will just bundle an existing player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=900349

When there's an actual working player on the market from Funai, I'll take my vaporware comment back. However, in the meantime the likelyhood of there being a Funai BD player ANY time soon is about as likely as me finding sasquatch sitting in my car tomorrow morning when I go to work.

Nothing in the statement refuted the fact that Blu-ray stand alones has been outselling HD-DVD standalones RECENTLY:


Agreed. I think everyone who insisted Sony's claim of recent standalone leadership included PS3s and those who insisted they were based on dollar value rather than units and especially those who outright called it another Sony lie ought to step back and really think about what they are saying.

OK this is bothering me. There is a big jump in BR sales where they pass HD DVD. What are the dates for that? It looks like the same time as the PS3 price reduction. What else was there? Do the dates end before the big A2 price reduction? They are kind of blurry.

The PS3 price drop, and the release of the Panny BD-10a and the Sony $399 model contributed to the jump.

What on earth supposedly happened at the end of June? I don't recall anyone noticing anything that would warrant a swing like that chart indicates. Did we see any news then regarding price promotion or anything else that would provoke a HUGE immediate switch in sales like this chart indicates? Assuming that HD DVD stand alones didn't exactly drop dead then Blu Ray must have had a tremendous upswing that week that continued untill now. I don't recall a single poster posting anyting indicating that in all the time since.

This supposed change is actually the most surprising/unexpected/unbelievable supposedly true chart I've ever seen in regard to this war. And if true why on earth hasn't Sony/BDA used it until now? It's supposed to have happened 2½ months ago?

Looking at it again it looks like HD DVD was at almost 80% this summer. Unbelievable high and I think it's likely that this chart does not count the add on either.

The only thing that comes to mind is the BD-S300 was released and then in July; during E3 Sony drops the PS3 price and had the 5 free title promotion for all players purchased from July-Sept. Those are the only few important events that I could think of that happened recently.

If this happened before June, I would expect the numbers to get in favor of Blu-ray for the months July-Sept because of the promotion.

The prevailing notion here is that HD-DVD stand alone players were slaughtering Blu-ray standalones the same way the PS3 has been killing HD-DVD players when its included, but in reality it is not. A 55%/45% lead is not that big when the PS3 is not counted and can be easily overcome this holiday season. Hopefully, they will bring out the $300 Sony blu-ray player.
I don't think you realize the significance of this Toshiba announcement. Toshiba by its lonesome - ALL BY ITSELF- is outselling ALL BD players combined and keeping up with the demand!!!How long do you think this will be allowed to continue before those other BD manufactorers start scratching their collective heads and wonder just what the hell is going on! I hope Sony does come out with a $300 player-I doubt it..more likely a $300 PS3...but I don't care. Critical mass may be achieved with both formats enjoying increased sales-deals will be struck-and the consumers may have that one format after all.

The only thing that comes to mind is the BD-S300 was released and then in July; during E3 Sony drops the PS3 price and had the 5 free title promotion for all players purchased from July-Sept. Those are the only few important events that I could think of that happened recently.

If this happened before June, I would expect the numbers to get in favor of Blu-ray for the months July-Sept because of the promotion.

The Panasonic BD-10a, at $599 with 5 movies in the box was released on Jun 19th. To date, it has been backordered or sold out every shipment to every major retailer, every time.

The Panasonic BD-10a, at $599 with 5 movies in the box was released on Jun 19th. To date, it has been backordered or sold out every shipment to every major retailer, every time.

Good catch. I forgot that Panasonic released the BD-10a at a lower price point. That one and the Sony must be the one selling well.

The only thing that comes to mind is the BD-S300 was released and then in July; during E3 Sony drops the PS3 price and had the 5 free title promotion for all players purchased from July-Sept. Those are the only few important events that I could think of that happened recently.

If this happened before June, I would expect the numbers to get in favor of Blu-ray for the months July-Sept because of the promotion.

The S300 was release on 6/21/07. The Panny - about 2 weeks latter.

And keep in mind that the A2 had a price cut to $299 after the Fathers Day sale (approx 6/25) and there was the continuing 5 free HD DVD promotion going on.

So is this a case of . . .

"Count the PS3?"

because it was selling in the 80K to 100K range from April until the middle of July when the $100 price cut hit.

IMO - The PS3 is being included . . . more FUD - it ain't a SAL BD player.

The S300 was release on 6/21/07. The Panny - about 2 weeks latter.

And keep in mind that the A2 had a price cut to $299 after the Fathers Day sale (approx 6/25) and there was the continuing 5 free HD DVD promotion going on.

So is this a case of . . .

"Count the PS3?"

because it was selling in the 80K to 100K range from April until the middle of July when the $100 price cut hit.

IMO - The PS3 is being included . . . more FUD - it ain't a SAL BD player.

Why would NPD suddenly start counting it?

Why would NPD suddenly start counting it?

Because the BDA/Sony told them or paid them to.;)

There my fire suit is on......I think they are counting the PS3...look at it this way, just because Sony shipped all those PS3's doesn't mean they sold that many PS3's...so if they count sold PS3's in there and Ignored the shipped numbers I think there numbers are correct. Unfortunately we will never know the truth.......

Is it possible that Target, Sam's, Costco, etc. ordered massive quantities of the BDS300?
Does anyone know if the numbers refer to end user sales or to retailers?

There my fire suit is on......I think they are counting the PS3...look at it this way, just because Sony shipped all those PS3's doesn't mean they sold that many PS3's...so if they count sold PS3's in there and Ignored the shipped numbers I think there numbers are correct. Unfortunately we will never know the truth.......


Do we ever? The classic "mushroom effect."

Why would NPD suddenly start counting it?

they didn't and aren't. Lee's full of it.

The Panny was released on June 19th, not two weeks later like he's claiming. I know, because I bought one that day. It's my birthday.

The Panasonic BD-10a, at $599 with 5 movies in the box was released on Jun 19th. To date, it has been backordered or sold out every shipment to every major retailer, every time.

Not my local best buy, they still have a stack. I was considering buying one when I returned my piece of crap Samsung BR player. I was going to fleabay the 10 movies to make some of the cost back. I just couldn't bring myself to buy a player that will be obsolete in a few months and did not have an Ethernet port, so for now I am HD DVD only.

I am hoping someone makes an affordable compliant player soon.

they didn't and aren't. Lee's full of it.

The Panny was released on June 19th, not two weeks later like he's claiming. I know, because I bought one that day. It's my birthday.

You should check a few articles at TV Predictions concerning the release of the 10A. You may have gotten one but they were scarce as hen's teeth until July.

The S300 was release on 6/21/07. The Panny - about 2 weeks latter.

And keep in mind that the A2 had a price cut to $299 after the Fathers Day sale (approx 6/25) and there was the continuing 5 free HD DVD promotion going on.

So is this a case of . . .

"Count the PS3?"

because it was selling in the 80K to 100K range from April until the middle of July when the $100 price cut hit.

IMO - The PS3 is being included . . . more FUD - it ain't a SAL BD player.

But they could not be counting the PS3 numbers before the end of June. That just wouldn't work so it's unlikely. Unless they suddenly started to include them in June which would be so outrageous that I really can't believe they did that.

Saying that HD DVD did 10.000 a week in May/June (as was said by Toshiba that they did for 7 weeks straight) mean 40.000 a month. From that chart it puts Blu Ray at around 10.000 (80/20). Then Blu Ray goes to 60/40 at the end of June which means that if HD DVD stayed at 40.000 Blu Ray must have gone to 60.000 a month. So you want me to believe they went from 10.000 to 60.000 in one week and stayed there? Not bloody likely promotion or not.

I'm saying they don't count the PS3, which they shouldn't. They don't count the add on, which they should, and there's still something very funky going on here.

"Toshiba refutes Sony's claims of Blu-ray stand-alone player dominance" ? You have to be kiddding, they seemed to confirm what Sony said, on top of which Sony didn't claim "dominance". Factor in the PS3 and dominance is accurate.

Is it possible that Target, Sam's, Costco, etc. ordered massive quantities of the BDS300?
Does anyone know if the numbers refer to end user sales or to retailers?

ooh ooh, you might be on to something ... as unlikely as that is it's the most likely explanation so far.

Wow.




That's a surprise.



Yawn.

Your reaction isn't. :)

Don't forget the multiple models, then the list looks like:


Blu-ray

Sony BDP-S300
Sony BDP-S500
Sony S2000ES
Philips BDP-700
Pioneer BDP-LX70
Pioneer BDP-94HD
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic DMP-BD10
Panasonic DMP-BD10AK
Sharp BD-HP20U
Samsung BD-P1200
Samsung BD-P1400
Samsung BD-P2400
JVC
Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0)
Denon DVD-3800BDCI
Denon DVD-2500BTCI
Loewe Blutech Vision


Dual

Samsung BD-UP5000 (dual)
LG BH200



HDDVD

Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Onkyo DV-HD805
Integra DHS-8.8
Venturer

Don't forget the multiple models, then the list looks like:


Blu-ray

Sony BDP-S300
Sony BDP-S500
Sony S2000ES
Philips BDP-700
Pioneer BDP-LX70
Pioneer BDP-94HD
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic DMP-BD10
Panasonic DMP-BD10AK
Sharp BD-HP20U
Samsung BD-P1200
Samsung BD-P1400
Samsung BD-P2400
JVC
Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0)
Denon DVD-3800BDCI
Denon DVD-2500BTCI
Loewe Blutech Vision


Dual

Samsung BD-UP5000 (dual)
LG BH200



HDDVD

Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Onkyo DV-HD805
Integra DHS-8.8
Venturer

Don't forget Shinco

And still kicking BD's tail, and getting Studios to dump BR?
Oustanding! :D

Don't forget the multiple models, then the list looks like:


What is the big deal? You left off the A2, A20, and XA2. Toshiba has stated the XA2 will continue for a long time.

And isn't the DMP-BD10AK a replacement for a buggy DMP-BD10? Nice to list them both.

Just how biased are you? Do you have a "Sony rules" Tatoo?

What is the big deal? You left off the A2, A20, and XA2. Toshiba has stated the XA2 will continue for a long time.

And isn't the DMP-BD10AK a replacement for a buggy DMP-BD10? Nice to list them both.

Just how biased are you? Do you have a "Sony rules" Tatoo?

LMAO!

:D

1.1 compliance may not matter much now. But, when the studios start releasing content that uses it there will be some very upset people out there.
Your comment will be noted in the minutes of this thread as an opinion and assumption and nothing more than your own personal mood ring of a crystal ball.

thank you.:)


Now, who do I go yell at and return my SD DVD to for the ones that require this "DVD ROM" feature for me to access special features.... :mad:

Here is the list of players that are complete and compliant with the full specs of each format:

Blu-ray

Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0) - maybe

Dual

?


HDDVD

Toshiba HD-A2
Toshiba HD-A20
Toshiba HD-XA2
Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Onkyo DV-HD805
Integra DHS-8.8
Venturer
Alpine
Shinco
[/QUOTE]

Here is the list of players that are complete and compliant with the full specs of each format:

Blu-ray

Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0) - maybe

Dual

?


HDDVD

Toshiba HD-A2
Toshiba HD-A20
Toshiba HD-XA2
Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Onkyo DV-HD805
Integra DHS-8.8
Venturer
Alpine
Shinco
[/QUOTE]


Blu Ray players that play 1080P, Lossless Sound, and PIP for all current and future BD releases:

Sony BDP-S300
Sony BDP-S500
Sony S2000ES
Philips BDP-700
Pioneer BDP-LX70
Pioneer BDP-94HD
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic DMP-BD10
Panasonic DMP-BD10AK
Sharp BD-HP20U
Samsung BD-P1200
Samsung BD-P1400
Samsung BD-P2400
JVC
Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0)
Denon DVD-3800BDCI
Denon DVD-2500BTCI
Loewe Blutech Vision


HD DVD players you can buy:

Toshiba HD-A2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A20 - Yes
Toshiba HD-XA2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A3 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A30 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A35 - Vapor
Onkyo DV-HD805 - Vapor
Integra DHS-8.8 - Vapor
Venturer - Vapor
Alpine - Vapor
Shinco - Vapor

*But no 1080P24....so we are waiting on that spec... I guess both formats are still growing in specs.

HD DVD players you can buy:

Toshiba HD-A2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A20 - Yes
Toshiba HD-XA2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A3 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A30 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A35 - Vapor
Onkyo DV-HD805 - Vapor
Integra DHS-8.8 - Vapor
Venturer - Vapor
Alpine - Vapor
Shinco - Vapor

*But no 1080P24....so we are waiting on that spec... I guess both formats are still growing in specs.

Did you just call players that have been announced and are on pre-sale by retailers "vapor"?

Wow.

Do any of these support the new 1.1 profile?:confused:

get a clue...
NOBODY CARES! :eek:

How many consumers out there do you think even know what that is?...:confused:

consumers will not base their buying decisions upon obscure technical specs of the players
only 50% of people with HDTVs even have HD service and 50% of those don't even know they don't have it. Trust me they have no idea what any of the stats on these players even means.
Brand, price, titles.. those are probably the only considerations for most people

Your comment will be noted in the minutes of this thread as an opinion and assumption and nothing more than your own personal mood ring of a crystal ball.

thank you.:)


Now, who do I go yell at and return my SD DVD to for the ones that require this "DVD ROM" feature for me to access special features.... :mad:

You mean you are the only person with a PC without a DVD ROM drive? Man -how old is your PC?

I don't think you realize the significance of this Toshiba announcement. Toshiba by its lonesome - ALL BY ITSELF- is outselling ALL BD players combined and keeping up with the demand!!!How long do you think this will be allowed to continue before those other BD manufactorers start scratching their collective heads and wonder just what the hell is going on! I hope Sony does come out with a $300 player-I doubt it..more likely a $300 PS3...but I don't care. Critical mass may be achieved with both formats enjoying increased sales-deals will be struck-and the consumers may have that one format after all.

CE's want to make money not loose money. With the price of the toshiba players no other CE can compete on the low end and Toshiba has through its price point strategy made HD DVD a low price feature so getting a lot of high price players is not going to be a easy sell feature.
On the blu side the tiered pricing from multiple CE's with non mandatory features allowing differentiation of products CE's can target specific market segments as seen in the recently announced ES series sony or the 3K$ :eek: multi disc changer.

Blu Ray players that play 1080P, Lossless Sound, and PIP for all current and future BD releases:

Sony BDP-S300
Sony BDP-S500
Sony S2000ES
Philips BDP-700
Pioneer BDP-LX70
Pioneer BDP-94HD
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic DMP-BD10
Panasonic DMP-BD10AK
Sharp BD-HP20U
Samsung BD-P1200
Samsung BD-P1400
Samsung BD-P2400
JVC
Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0)
Denon DVD-3800BDCI
Denon DVD-2500BTCI
Loewe Blutech Vision


HD DVD players you can buy:

Toshiba HD-A2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A20 - Yes
Toshiba HD-XA2 - Yes
Toshiba HD-A3 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A30 - Vapor
Toshiba HD-A35 - Vapor
Onkyo DV-HD805 - Vapor
Integra DHS-8.8 - Vapor
Venturer - Vapor
Alpine - Vapor
Shinco - Vapor

*But no 1080P24....so we are waiting on that spec... I guess both formats are still growing in specs.Half of those BD players do not do all that you claim they do...

Toshiba has sowed a crop of enthusiasts that like inexpensive players....Hardware manufacturers do like to make money...HD DVD is not a platform that will allow for profits. With BD's price structure, everyone who makes a player, makes money.

CE's want to make money not loose money. With the price of the toshiba players no other CE can compete on the low end and Toshiba has through its price point strategy made HD DVD a low price feature so getting a lot of high price players is not going to be a easy sell feature.
On the blu side the tiered pricing from multiple CE's with non mandatory features allowing differentiation of products CE's can target specific market segments as seen in the recently announced ES series sony or the 3K$ :eek: multi disc changer.

So The Venturer at $199 is a what?

Toshiba has sowed a crop of enthusiasts that like inexpensive players....Hardware manufacturers do like to make money...HD DVD is not a platform that will allow for profits. With BD's price structure, everyone who makes a player, makes money.

And that's what Ecklund said. He also hinted that HD DVD was killing them because of it. Also, the HD DVD players to date have every bit of the quality that BD players do at half the price. It might be bad for HD DVD, but it's worse for BD.

You mean you are the only person with a PC without a DVD ROM drive? Man -how old is your PC?

Some people don't have PC's believe it or not and go to the library or internet cafe. Yes, $500 is a lot of money to some for a PC that will be useless in 3-5 years.
These people watch movies at home on DVD and get excited to play the games mentioned on the DVD with large shinny stickers but the game doesn't work unless you have a PC with Penitum II 10gighz, DVD ROM and Direct X 25 and a Gforce 256 video card. :rolleyes:

Toshiba has sowed a crop of enthusiasts that like inexpensive players....Hardware manufacturers do like to make money...HD DVD is not a platform that will allow for profits. With BD's price structure, everyone who makes a player, makes money.

Toshiba gets royalties/license fees for:

1. HD DVD players made
2. HD DVD disc sold.

Toshiba is using these revenue streams to make a low priced HD player.

Please show us links or articles that the 5 current released CEM BD player makers have made ANY money whatsoever.

Please include Manuf. Line setup, tooling costs. Design and Engineering costs, prototype costs, testing and certification costs . . .

You know the story Jeff.

Toshiba has sowed a crop of enthusiasts that like inexpensive players....Hardware manufacturers do like to make money...HD DVD is not a platform that will allow for profits. With BD's price structure, everyone who makes a player, makes money.

Only if they sell the player...:D

Some people don't have PC's believe it or not and go to the library or internet cafe. Yes, $500 is a lot of money to some for a PC that will be useless in 3-5 years.
These people watch movies at home on DVD and get excited to play the games mentioned on the DVD with large shinny stickers but the game doesn't work unless you have a PC with Penitum II 10gighz, DVD ROM and Dirext X 25 and a Gforce 256 video card. :rolleyes:

Last figured quoted by the CEA - 78% of all USA households have the Internet. So at least they got to have a PC to do that. There was a percentage of PC owners who didn't have an Internet connection because they didn't want it but I can't remember the exact %. Was less than 10% though.

Please - No B & W examples - nothing is 100% or 0%.

So how about $500 for a BD player that is useless in 6 months?:rolleyes:

The sales of players to Target could be a big factor in this. Of course, they haven't sold a single one yet, but we are talking about Sony so I'm sure they count them as sold.

Even considering that I was surprised the numbers were so close. If true.

Wasnt a Real 1080p24 firmware update supposed to come out for the Toshiba models by now? I have been hearing about it for 6+ months now.

Full spec? when most players cant play ever play 1080p? When none of the players can play 1080p24?.... uh I guess thats your guys point of view.

Wasnt a Real 1080p24 firmware update supposed to come out for the Toshiba models by now? I have been hearing about it for 6+ months now.

Was just announced by Toshiba - NLT - middle of Sept.

Why? You ready to step up to a Pioneer $7000 72 hz PDP FPD?

Was just announced by Toshiba - NLT - middle of Sept.

Why? You ready to step up to a Pioneer $7000 72 hz PDP FPD?

Maybe... maybe.

So how about $500 for a BD player that is useless in 6 months?:rolleyes:
Can you validate your statement with what you mean by useless?

IIRC, people can still watch their BD DVD's on all future releases, the main function of the player.
Maybe they won't get popups and advertisements to access a website to buy merchandice on 1.1/2.0 BD discs but they can do that on their PC. :D

Woohoo for the future of DVD/TV spam and popups !!!!!

It will rock when there is a great action or drama moment/scene during a movie and a popup PiP displays on the screen asking me if I want to go online to buy some cheetos.

I don't get enough spam and popups on my PC and now I can get more on my TV everytime I watch a movie.
Yay !!!!! :rolleyes:

I think the BD jump is from the fact that Sony has spent a TON of money at BB and Circuit City and other places to get prime display location for BD. Just try and find an HD-DVD player in BB or Circuit city. Or walk near them and not have a rep try and sell you BD.

Sony spent a LOT of money to try and boost BD in the last 3 months, maybe it's paying off. But for how long?

Wasnt a Real 1080p24 firmware update supposed to come out for the Toshiba models by now? I have been hearing about it for 6+ months now.

Full spec? when most players cant play ever play 1080p? When none of the players can play 1080p24?.... uh I guess thats your guys point of view.

The A2 was never supposed to do 1080P or 1080P24. How can that be a hit against the player? The A20 and XA2 both do 1080P and will soon do 1080P24.

get a clue...
NOBODY CARES! :eek:

How many consumers out there do you think even know what that is?...:confused:

consumers will not base their buying decisions upon obscure technical specs of the players
only 50% of people with HDTVs even have HD service and 50% of those don't even know they don't have it. Trust me they have no idea what any of the stats on these players even means.
Brand, price, titles.. those are probably the only considerations for most people

I care, I wont buy a player which will be obsolete in a few months

Consumers care, what do you think will happen in a few months when (and if) 1.1 is available? What if Sony, Disney, etc start to tout interactivity?

"Hey lets get POTC3 it has this new special feature stuff.... WHAT!!! IT WONT WORK ON MY THE BLU-RAY PLAYER I BOUGHT LAST CHRISTMAS!!!"

The chart with the %s, are those percentages weekly or YTD or SI percentages?

I'm still having a hard time believing that the Sony $500 player is selling that well, but it's possible the blockbuster announcement hurt HD-DVD standalone player sales that much & Toshiba hadn't recovered yet. Coupled with the G3 announcement, the ending of some promotions that pushed A2 prices down to $200....

I'm still struggling though with the idea that someone would buy a standalone over the ps3... particularly in the tens of thousands. I'd think the ps3 price cut & bundles in July would've cratered standalone sales.

I don't think most adults want a PS3 when movies is the primary want. $500 isn't an insane price...Obviously as many folks that are buying $300 HD DVD player are buying $500 and up BD players.

I care, I wont buy a player which will be obsolete in a few months

Consumers care, what do you think will happen in a few months when (and if) 1.1 is available? What if Sony, Disney, etc start to tout interactivity?

"Hey lets get POTC3 it has this new special feature stuff.... WHAT!!! IT WONT WORK ON MY THE BLU-RAY PLAYER I BOUGHT LAST CHRISTMAS!!!"

Disney has announced:

First DS PIP Title - avail. Q2 - National Treasure
First BD-Live Title - avail Q3 - Sleeping Beauty

You better believe they are going to make a big deal out of this. Look what they are doing with Cars.

So I buy a 1.0 BD player in Q4 or a "leftover" in Q1 and 3 months later - my player can't play DS PIP.

Sony and the BDA are raping their customers - and you all think nothing of it. Just say "special features mean nothing to me."

But 50 GB versus 30 GB means EVERYTHING - yet we have never seen a BD movie that is 40% better than a HD DVD movie - best versus best.

So let's hear from all the micro thinkers - about storage and bit rate and better studio support - all of which mean jack **** and jack just left.

The prevailing notion here is that HD-DVD stand alone players were slaughtering Blu-ray standalones the same way the PS3 has been killing HD-DVD players when its included, but in reality it is not. A 55%/45% lead is not that big when the PS3 is not counted and can be easily overcome this holiday season. Hopefully, they will bring out the $300 Sony blu-ray player.

Which makes the BDA mantra 2:1 disc sales even more rediculous. Because it's showing even BD SA owners don't buy discs at as high a rate as HD DVD owners.

I don't think most adults want a PS3 when movies is the primary want. $500 isn't an insane price...Obviously as many folks that are buying $300 HD DVD player are buying $500 and up BD players.

But Jeff. How is that possible when we know the PS3 accounts for 90+% of BD player sales?

Is there anything that Sony says that you don't believe?

So what do y’all figure the result of this lineup is going to be on future player sales?

HD DVD:
Toshiba
RCA (as near as I can tell it’s only for sale on Amazon)
Onkyo (this is gonna be just as expensive as the Blu-Ray players, so much for the low price advantage)
Venturer (which is such a no-name brand even Wal-Mart won't be carrying it)


Blu-Ray (reads like a list of every major electronics manufacturer)
Sony
Samsung (dual)
Philips
Pioneer
Panasonic
Sharp
Samsung
JVC
Daewoo
Denon
Loewe
LG (dual)
Hitatchi (camcorders)
Harmon Kardon
Mitsubishi
Lite-On
Funai (which makes US brands Emerson, Magnavox and Sylvania)

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out the answer to this one...

And the irony is the only company making money from BD players on that list is Sony. ;) Way to go Sony. Keep up the good work and you'll soon find more defections to go along with Paramount. PS3 anyone?

There are so few decent games for the PS3 at this point, that it should probably be considered a stand-alone Blu-Ray player. It's what it does best. Maybe that was Sony's strategy all along: "We'll just keep releasing crappy games for it and, sooner or later, they'll give up and start watching movies."

Disney has announced:

First DS PIP Title - avail. Q2 - National Treasure
First BD-Live Title - avail Q3 - Sleeping Beauty

You better believe they are going to make a big deal out of this. Look what they are doing with Cars.

So I buy a 1.0 BD player in Q4 or a "leftover" in Q1 and 3 months later - my player can't play DS PIP.

Sony and the BDA are raping their customers - and you all think nothing of it. Just say "special features mean nothing to me."

But 50 GB versus 30 GB means EVERYTHING - yet we have never seen a BD movie that is 40% better than a HD DVD movie - best versus best.

So let's hear from all the micro thinkers - about storage and bit rate and better studio support - all of which mean jack **** and jack just left.




I would hate to be working the return counter after those BDs are released. I can see many people returning them as defective merchandise. Better yet they may return both players and disc as defective only to then buy HD DVDs and players.

I don't think most adults want a PS3 when movies is the primary want. $500 isn't an insane price...Obviously as many folks that are buying $300 HD DVD player are buying $500 and up BD players.

The only adults buying these players so far are early adopters. Surely you don't consider them "us" as typical consumers do you? We are willing to put out extra cash the majority "millions" will not.

I don't think most adults want a PS3 when movies is the primary want. $500 isn't an insane price...Obviously as many folks that are buying $300 HD DVD player are buying $500 and up BD players.

Spoken like a true financial heavyweight who recently traveled europe sipping wine and posting here as a distraction. ;)

Spoken like a true financial heavyweight who recently traveled europe sipping wine and posting here as a distraction. ;)


I would have sipped even more wine if the US dollar wasn't so damn weak!!!:mad:

I love posting here....HT has been in my blood for since I was 15 years old and spent one of my real job paychecks on a JVC reveiver and Philips speakers!!!:D

And the irony is the only company making money from BD players on that list is Sony. ;) Way to go Sony. Keep up the good work and you'll soon find more defections to go along with Paramount. PS3 anyone?

Let me see, stop making players for the format with the cheapest player at 499MSRP and defect to the format with the cheapest player at 199MSRP.

Now that's an interesting quandary isn't it?

I'm not understanding what the big deal with this is....

Sony AND Toshiba are both right...

Sony appears to have taken the Standalone sales lead in the WTD numbers on the presentation. This shouldn't come as a surprise as Blu-Ray has at least 3X more standalones available.

Toshiba still maintains the 54/42 lead in YTD standalones sold as the crossover in BR vs HDDVD standalone sales did not occur until a few weeks ago.

As to the comments about Sony including the PS3 in those numbers that is not possible, otherwise the numbers would be 90/10 in favor of BR considering those are selling @500K/month worldwide.

I don't think most adults want a PS3 when movies is the primary want. $500 isn't an insane price...Obviously as many folks that are buying $300 HD DVD player are buying $500 and up BD players.

Since I paid $500 for my XA2, I can't say it's insane for me, but as my second-choice format that I would buy with some resignation that is still not finished, it may as well cost a $1000. I won't pay anything for a player that's not future-proof on disks that have already been announced, and people are insane to knowingly do so.

Lets face it, this is an issue the BDA does not want people to know before the 07 shopping-season is over, and quite frankly if Toshiba had a competitive brain in their head they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Since I paid $500 for my XA2, I can't say it's insane for me, but as my second-choice format that I would buy with some resignation that is still not finished, it may as well cost a $1000. I won't pay anything for a player that's not future-proof on disks that have already been announced, and people are insane to knowingly do so.

Lets face it, this is an issue the BDA does not want people to know before the 07 shopping-season is over, and quite frankly if Toshiba had a competitive brain in their head they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

They are - just read the transcript of Ken G.s presentation at the IFA show last week. Anyone have a link to the CEDIA HD DVD presentation made yesterday?

Let me see, stop making players for the format with the cheapest player at 499MSRP and defect to the format with the cheapest player at 199MSRP.

Now that's an interesting quandary isn't it?

Yeah, especially since Sony undercuts every other BD manufacturer with it's subsidized PS3. I bet Sony is outselling every other BD manufacturer that way. I'm sure they're happy with that.

Or I'm sure Sony is giving Samsung, Philip, Panasonic, and everyone else a piece of their PS3 pro........

The Panasonic BD-10a, at $599 with 5 movies in the box was released on Jun 19th. To date, it has been backordered or sold out every shipment to every major retailer, every time.

So the stack of them I saw at Circuit City today were ? Probably had 10 or so of them.

Either way you can consider the market to be a split right now 55/42/3 or however you look at it; the market is flat. It will be up to the retailers this Christmas to educate potential buyers of which format to buy. It will basically come down to, "Well there is Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Here are the racks of movies and based on what movies you like buy that format otherwise go dual/wait."

Should be interesting. ANd you can't count out the PS3 this Christmas either or now for that matter.

I wonder why all this data from both camps is just now coming out? Why don't they announce this data (from NPD or whatever source) weekly, as they do with Nielsen/Videoscan. Seems like it's tracked weekly. You'd think the winning side each week would want to make sure everybody had the true numbers, not keep it a state secret. :confused:

I wonder why all this data from both camps is just now coming out? Why don't they announce this data (from NPD or whatever source) weekly, as they do with Nielsen/Videoscan. Seems like it's tracked weekly. You'd think the winning side each week would want to make sure everybody had the true numbers, not keep it a state secret. :confused:

"Mushroom Effect"

Very necessary for the HDM market - can't let consumers know how bad it is doing.

I wonder why all this data from both camps is just now coming out? Why don't they announce this data (from NPD or whatever source) weekly, as they do with Nielsen/Videoscan. Seems like it's tracked weekly. You'd think the winning side each week would want to make sure everybody had the true numbers, not keep it a state secret. :confused:

You have to pay a fee to release the information. It's probably not worth it to pay to release them weekly.

As to the comments about Sony including the PS3 in those numbers that is not possible, otherwise the numbers would be 90/10 in favor of BR considering those are selling @500K/month worldwide.

Uhhh please post some links or evidence proving this ridiculous number.


Shipped units and sold units are 2 different things.

I wonder why all this data from both camps is just now coming out? Why don't they announce this data (from NPD or whatever source) weekly, as they do with Nielsen/Videoscan. Seems like it's tracked weekly. You'd think the winning side each week would want to make sure everybody had the true numbers, not keep it a state secret. :confused:

I'm not sure if electronics is the same as video gaming, but NPD numbers are usually monthly in that arena. Might be the same here too.

"Mushroom Effect"

Very necessary for the HDM market - can't let consumers know how bad it is doing.

That would explain why the chart is % not #/sales... methinks the chart would look very different.

Uhhh please post some links or evidence proving this ridiculous number.

Shipped units and sold units are 2 different things.
PS3: 159,000 units sold in July in North America, per NPD.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6177468.html

Considering that one month of sales alone comes very close to the lifetime sales of HD DVD standalones, I'm pretty certain we can agree that PS3s aren't being counted by NPD in their Blu-ray standalone count, no?

If you don't agree, my only suggestion to you (and to Lee, who insinuated the same earlier in this thread) is to take the tinfoil hats off for a moment.

Yeah, especially since Sony undercuts every other BD manufacturer with it's subsidized PS3. I bet Sony is outselling every other BD manufacturer that way. I'm sure they're happy with that.

Or I'm sure Sony is giving Samsung, Philip, Panasonic, and everyone else a piece of their PS3 pro........

Yet with all the supposed undercutting with the game machine, BD standalones still manages to match sales with HD DVD standalones at twice the price of the competition - I think that speaks favourably for the BD side.

Yet with all the supposed undercutting with the game machine, BD standalones still manages to match sales with HD DVD standalones at twice the price of the competition - I think that speaks favourably for the BD side.

I think it speaks more of BDAs marketing and PR machine than anything else.

They are - just read the transcript of Ken G.s presentation at the IFA show last week. Anyone have a link to the CEDIA HD DVD presentation made yesterday?

Sure, but how does this info trickle down to the consumer level where it counts?

Several have remarked that BD players should be well-behind HD DVD if price means anything, but obviously to the select 3% who own HDM, fear of HD DVD going down due to lack of CE and studio support means as much, and the BDA did a good job of making sure the early adopter knew this balance. Now that HD DVD has procured more content and (even cheaper) players with finished specs, they really have to get the word out there they are ready and their competition is not.

It's also true by the way.

I think the other problem is there are people that are brand loyal no matter how cheap Toshiba goes there is going to be people that will buy a Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, Pioneer, JVC, Sharp or any of the other Brand names over a Tosh.

Yes HD DVD is getting Venture, Onkyo and a few others but for well known brands to the Average person it's still Tosh vs Many. They need more Brand names making HD DVD if they really want to pull away.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6858/bdslidetm1.jpg


Judging from Toshiba's response, I think its fair to assume that graph is at least partially accurate (its a bit blurry to be taken as gospel).

I don't know how there was a turn-around like that and nobody noticed but I'll accept it.

However, notice how the graph stops 2 days prior to P-Day. I have a feeling things look different now...


Edit: I just noticed that the peak of Blu-Ray coincides with the date on my sig. Very interesting indeed.

"HD-DVD will be out of business in a matter of months." - Peter Dille of Sony (July 13th, 2007)

Here is the list of players that are complete and compliant with the full specs of each format:

Blu-ray

Daewoo DBP-1000 (2.0) - maybe

Dual

?


HDDVD

Toshiba HD-A2
Toshiba HD-A20
Toshiba HD-XA2
Toshiba HD-A3
Toshiba HD-A30
Toshiba HD-A35
Onkyo DV-HD805
Integra DHS-8.8
Venturer
Alpine
Shinco
[/QUOTE]

:):):)

This does show one thing, 4.5M PS3s are pretty much irrelevant. They are contributing very little to disc sales.

Assuming stand-alones sell at equal attach ratios, and assuming they are roughly equal at this point, it would actually seem to indicate that over 50% of blu-ray disc sales can be attributed to PS3 owners, since blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD 2:1 in software, despite having slightly less stand-alones. I'd say the PS3 is certainly playing a role in this war.

I think the other problem is there are people that are brand loyal no matter how cheap Toshiba goes there is going to be people that will buy a Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, Pioneer, JVC, Sharp or any of the other Brand names over a Tosh.

Yes HD DVD is getting Venture, Onkyo and a few others but for well known brands to the Average person it's still Tosh vs Many. They need more Brand names making HD DVD if they really want to pull away.

I think Toshiba is a fairly popular name-brand, I'd buy it over Samsung, Phillips, Sharp, LG and (now) JVC. However, I too wouldn't mind a Panasonic or Pioneer or HD DVD on the market.

Honestly I think they aren't attracted to HD DVD because the profit has been taken down with the prices, and they probably aren't attracted to BD because their combined slice of the BD pie has been fractional compared to Sony's. It would seem one of the reasons they aren't bending-over backwards to get players up to 1.1 or 2.0. So they are probably pretty unhappy with HDM in general at present.

Judging from Toshiba's response, I think its fair to assume that graph is at least partially accurate (its a bit blurry to be taken as gospel).


Doesn't seem too blury to me...I can make out all the dates along the bottom of the graph, which is the only thing that required squinting to see. I think the graph is pretty clear as to what it indicates, though I think some people may be confused...

It is not a cumulative graph. It does not represent total installed players at the graph point. How this particular graph works is each week they plot a point for the market-share percentage each format had for the week. It would be nice if those were absolute numbers instead of percentages, because they we could calculate the cumulative total for the year for each format (which would be the area under their respective curves).

The graph merely says that blu-ray started outselling HD DVD week-to-week beginning on June 23, 2007 and has held a lead ever since.

That said, selling the most players for 8 weeks in a row isn't enough to make up for the larger installed base that HD DVD had on June 23. But, over time blu-ray will eventually make up that difference if they maintain a weekly sales advantage.

I think Toshiba is a fairly popular name-brand, I'd buy it over Samsung, Phillips, Sharp, LG and (now) JVC. However, I too wouldn't mind a Panasonic or Pioneer or HD DVD on the market.

Honestly I think they aren't attracted to HD DVD because the profit has been taken down with the prices, and they probably aren't attracted to BD because their combined slice of the BD pie has been fractional compared to Sony's. It would seem one of the reasons they aren't bending-over backwards to get players up to 1.1 or 2.0. So they are probably pretty unhappy with HDM in general at present.

You might take a Toshiba over a Phillips, Sharp or JVC but there are going to be people that would rather a Sharp over a Toshiba or Philips or maybe a JVC over a Toshiba or Sharp.

It's just such a disadvantage right now for HD DVD. At this point come the holidays consumers at B&M stores will buy a TV then be shown the choices if you want a common Brand name player they will be shown a Toshiba for HD DVD or a Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Sharp, Philips, Pioneer for Blu Ray. I can't see how consumers wont be swayed by the choice Blu Ray has over HD DVD.

If HD DVD does not get some more Brand names to start releasing by the holidays i think Blu-Ray will easily start to pull ahead in the stand alone market by alot.

I think it speaks more of BDAs marketing and PR machine than anything else.

The campaign of fear. BUY OUR MORE EXPENSIVE PRODUCT OR PERISH.

You might take a Toshiba over a Phillips, Sharp or JVC but there are going to be people that would rather a Sharp over a Toshiba or Philips or maybe a JVC over a Toshiba or Sharp.

It's just such a disadvantage right now for HD DVD. At this point come the holidays consumers at B&M stores will buy a TV then be shown the choices if you want a common Brand name player they will be shown a Toshiba for HD DVD or a Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Sharp, Philips, Pioneer for Blu Ray. I can't see how consumers wont be swayed by the choice Blu Ray has over HD DVD.

If HD DVD does not get some more Brand names to start releasing by the holidays i think Blu-Ray will easily start to pull ahead in the stand alone market by alot.

Frankly, I think your over-optimistic that a store will stock more than three (tops) BD players at a given time, especially if they start at $500 and go on up to a $1000. I also wasn't aware JVC had a player?

Toshiba also sells a lot of HDTVs (and yes I know Sony does too).

Is anyone familiar with the concept of channel stuffing... All you have to do is go to your local BB and see how many HD DVD players are actually in stock at any time.. virtually zero. This is not just an artefact of the G2, G3 transition, this has been the case practically since day 1. The Chart from Sony is mostly probably not sell through numbers.. You have all these BD CEs who have filled the channel (channel stuffing) while HD DVD playres sell through almost immediately. The Gen 3 HD players are most likely on the boat and they will start to move with authority as we see the 7 free titles, plus whatever other promos are working. You can only push so hard.

All this channel stuffing by the BD will at some point create this huge overhang of unsold BD players and there will be an inventory clearance panic sale. That should be interesting to say the least. If they continue to overstuff the channel all the way into the holidays, they will create a disaster for the CEMs as they will have to bail out the retailers with huge incentives. Way too much production for the size of the market.

Doesn't seem too blury to me...I can make out all the dates along the bottom of the graph, which is the only thing that required squinting to see. I think the graph is pretty clear as to what it indicates, though I think some people may be confused...

It is not a cumulative graph. It does not represent total installed players at the graph point. How this particular graph works is each week they plot a point for the market-share percentage each format had for the week. It would be nice if those were absolute numbers instead of percentages, because they we could calculate the cumulative total for the year for each format (which would be the area under their respective curves).

The graph merely says that blu-ray started outselling HD DVD week-to-week beginning on June 23, 2007 and has held a lead ever since.

That said, selling the most players for 8 weeks in a row isn't enough to make up for the larger installed base that HD DVD had on June 23. But, over time blu-ray will eventually make up that difference if they maintain a weekly sales advantage.I agree with your assessment of the graph. Unfortunately for all of us who desire up-to-date data, it appears the graph stops just before the P/DW annoucement, and just from annecdotal evidence (Amazon, etc) I got the feeling that HD DVD got a pretty good shot in the arm that week, and esp the following week. I say this as a BD supporter, but I have the feeling the chart may have swung the other way more recently. I would think Tosh would want to get that data out if true. Anyway, I'm curious as to whether the effects we see on AVS, Amazon, etc translate into much actual movement in sales.

Is anyone familiar with the concept of channel stuffing... All you have to do is go to your local BB and see how many HD DVD players are actually in stock at any time.. virtually zero. This is not just an artefact of the G2, G3 transition, this has been the case practically since day 1. The Chart from Sony is mostly probably not sell through numbers.. You have all these BD CEs who have filled the channel (channel stuffing) while HD DVD playres sell through almost immediately. The Gen 3 HD players are most likely on the boat and they will start to move with authority as we see the 7 free titles, plus whatever other promos are working. You can only push so hard.

All this channel stuffing by the BD will at some point create this huge overhang of unsold BD players and there will be an inventory clearance panic sale. That should be interesting to say the least. If they continue to overstuff the channel all the way into the holidays, they will create a disaster for the CEMs as they will have to bail out the retailers with huge incentives. Way too much production for the size of the market.

They are talking about Market share from numbers provided by NDP you can't have Market share numbers include units shipped can only include units sold to the consumer.

Frankly, I think your over-optimistic that a store will stock more than three (tops) BD players at a given time, especially if they start at $500 and go on up to a $1000. I also wasn't aware JVC had a player?

Toshiba also sells a lot of HDTVs (and yes I know Sony does too).

Places like Costco or Walmart i agree your not going to see much choice but I'd be surprised if places like Bestbuy and CircuitCity don't have most of the Major Brands displayed. Maybe not all hooked up but is it really that hard to display 6-7 units instead of 3? It's all about choice and you do normally get more of a choice shopping at stores like that over discount type places.

The JVC was just shown no price or release date on it yet.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=481

It doesn't really matter who leads in sales or who lied. The fact is that if BD stand alone sales are even just 90% of HD-DVD along with another 150K PS3 a month. HD-DVD is sunk.

Actually 55:43 is more like 80%

And then we can add the standalone.

Plus the segment of buyers ready to purchase a 500$ players is decreasing, BD need its own J6P player. Or it will be hard for them.

Actually 55:43 is more like 80%

And then we can add the standalone.

Plus the segment of buyers ready to purchase a 500$ players is decreasing, BD need its own J6P player. Or it will be hard for them.

Ok they may not have sunk but they are losing.

Not this X'mas. The reason for the slow adoption rate for HDM is that most of America is running on SDTV. HDTV and HD player are still consider big ticket items where consumer pay more attention to brand name and popularity (even only percieved) than price difference.

Case in point. back when I was looking for a LCD late last year. There was this 47" 1080p set available from some Taiwanese manufacturer going for about $1800. Did I buy it? No, I bought a Sharp 46" 1080p for $2500 instead (best price I can get at that time).

I agree with your assessment of the graph. Unfortunately for all of us who desire up-to-date data, it appears the graph stops just before the P/DW annoucement, and just from annecdotal evidence (Amazon, etc) I got the feeling that HD DVD got a pretty good shot in the arm that week, and esp the following week. I say this as a BD supporter, but I have the feeling the chart may have swung the other way more recently. I would think Tosh would want to get that data out if true. Anyway, I'm curious as to whether the effects we see on AVS, Amazon, etc translate into much actual movement in sales.

I think you over-estimate the short-term effect of the Paramount news. While the Paramount decision will have an effect, it probably won't matter until Paramount actually starts releasing some movies in HD DVD only, until then, it's just an obscure story that nobody but those 'in the business' (which includes enthusiasts for this discussion) really knows about.

I would bet that 90% of people buying either format player at retail would not be able to name which format Paramount releases movies in at this point...it's simply not on their radar (unless the sales person happened to point it out). Heck...I bet the majority of sales people at Best Buy and CC couldn't answer that question correctly at this point.

The only thing that will take the lead back for Toshiba at this point is to release an ever-cheaper player again. There is a limit to how long they can keep doing that. It's worth noting that the major switches in the graph (in both directions) so far were both related to release of new cheaper player models.

Actually its now other manufactures that will release cheap HD DVD players. So Toshiba dont really need to lower its prices, thats for the other manufactures to do.

Christmas will be intresting.

It is my personal opinion that Toshiba got advanced warning of BD standalones starting to outsell those of HD-DVD in July, and that it was a primary motivating factor in setting up the deal with Paramount and Dreamworks. I think most will agree that HD-DVD cannot come out on top of this thing with lower standalone sales.

Wow.

That's a surprise.

Yawn.Yeah - a surprise that Sony lied again?

Since I paid $500 for my XA2, I can't say it's insane for me, but as my second-choice format that I would buy with some resignation that is still not finished, it may as well cost a $1000. I won't pay anything for a player that's not future-proof on disks that have already been announced, and people are insane to knowingly do so.

Lets face it, this is an issue the BDA does not want people to know before the 07 shopping-season is over, and quite frankly if Toshiba had a competitive brain in their head they would be shouting it from the rooftops.


Well, all Blu Ray players have 1080P picture and lossless sound - for all movies present and future. I don't think many will be disappointed with that.

Personally, I have no plans of dumping my Panny BD player for one that plays PIP in HD....Total waste of time.

This future proof stuff is simply spin. We are talking about PIP in HD. Worthless to most. Bd players still have PIP.

1. The general public doesn't even know these players can do PIP - let alone the next gen ones will do it in HD. So, why would Toshiba spend money promoting a worthless feature that Blu Ray has and will update to in the next month or two?

Did you just call players that have been announced and are on pre-sale by retailers "vapor"?

Wow.


YEs, many had preorders of the announced Blades of Glory Blu Ray disc....Turned out to be vapor as well:o.

A bit of common sense here.

For a year we've had Toshibas HD-A2 & co. We've had them at the $100 rebate/reduced price since April. Everyone who wants one of those has got one.

BD introduce a cheap (sorry, that should be "cheaper") player - a new model. That's bound to sell well.

The fact that the more wallet friendly Sony sold well for a month or two, and that sales of Toshibas 2nd gen players started to fall off a little coincided with the Sony's release, would point to BD standalone sales catching HD DVD.

With the 3rd Gen Toshibas, the cheaper Venturer, and Paramounts move restoring confidence in HD DVD, we'll see a swing back in the coming months.

I think the BDA announced this 'success' in the one brief window of opportunity they had.

Steve W

I think the race to the bottom (in terms of pricing) is a race Sony is glad to let Toshiba have. Cheap players, no marketing, who cares about them..... Toshiba is not a name many folks equate with Sony's solid brand name. So, folks will spend more.

Sony has been America's favorite brand for 7 of the last 8 years (Harris poll)...and it is always more money...

so iof the ps3 does not matter like all the hd-dvd fans claim.

then the attach rate for blu-ray is nearly twice that of hd-dvd to support a sales ration of 2:1 disks.

I bet they are crying now, wheels spinning in their heads as to how to spin this.

maybe sony is/was right, blu-ray is winnning, with players costing 2x as much, their market share of standalones is not twice as small.

Assuming stand-alones sell at equal attach ratios, and assuming they are roughly equal at this point, it would actually seem to indicate that over 50% of blu-ray disc sales can be attributed to PS3 owners, since blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD 2:1 in software, despite having slightly less stand-alones. I'd say the PS3 is certainly playing a role in this war.
Not much else to do with those PS3s is there?

Actually its now other manufactures that will release cheap HD DVD players. So Toshiba dont really need to lower its prices, thats for the other manufactures to do.

Christmas will be intresting.So other CE manufacturers will come into the market and sell cheap HD-DVD players at a loss so Toshiba doesn't have to lower its prices further? I'm sure the executives at those other CE companies are salivating at the chance to be so noble and to come to Toshiba's rescue.:):):)

Actually, Blu-ray doesn't have to find new first-time customers for their stand alone players. They can just keep selling them over and over again to the same people each time the profile changes. Planned obsolescence is a great way for manufacturers to do business, so long as the buyers keep going along with the scheme. The attach rate of players to purchaser could be at least three to one for Blu-ray. That is good news for Blu-ray -- and bad news for the consumer. When an HD DVD owner upgrades, it is sometimes a quest for a "faster load time." When a Blu-ray owner upgrades, it is so that he will be able to use all of that other stuff on the disc. I think that Toshiba was foolish for making players that had complete specs from the very beginning. Where is the incentive to keep spending more and more money? And, given the prices of Blu-ray players, think of all the money that Toshiba is leaving on the table by charging so little for players with complete specs.

It reminds me of the college textbook scam. You change the text just a little from year to year, which forces the students to buy the new more expensive edition. Where will all the Profile 1.0 players be one year from now? Ebay?

I think the race to the bottom (in terms of pricing) is a race Sony is glad to let Toshiba have. Cheap players, no marketing, who cares about them..... Toshiba is not a name many folks equate with Sony's solid brand name. So, folks will spend more.

Sony has been America's favorite brand for 7 of the last 8 years (Harris poll)...and it is always more money...
People are blind...I wonder how long they'll feed on the feces that Sony shoves? It's sickening.

so iof the ps3 does not matter like all the hd-dvd fans claim.

then the attach rate for blu-ray is nearly twice that of hd-dvd to support a sales ration of 2:1 disks.

I bet they are crying now, wheels spinning in their heads as to how to spin this.

maybe sony is/was right, blu-ray is winnning, with players costing 2x as much, their market share of standalones is not twice as small.

So you think Sony should be bragging about having roughly the same number of SA players and millions of PS3s but can do no better than 2:1 in disc sales? Nothing to brag about to most rational people.

Actually, Blu-ray doesn't have to find new first-time customers for their stand alone players. They can just keep selling them over and over again to the same people each time the profile changes. Planned obsolescence is a great way for manufacturers to do business, so long as the buyers keep going along with the scheme. The attach rate of players to purchaser could be at least three to one for Blu-ray. That is good news for Blu-ray -- and bad news for the consumer. When an HD DVD owner upgrades, it is sometimes a quest for a "faster load time." When a Blu-ray owner upgrades, it is so that he will be able to use all of that other stuff on the disc. I think that Toshiba was foolish for making players that had complete specs from the very beginning. Where is the incentive to keep spending more and more money? And, given the prices of Blu-ray players, think of all the money that Toshiba is leaving on the table by charging so little for players with complete specs.

It reminds me of the college textbook scam. You change the text just a little from year to year, which forces the students to buy the new more expensive edition. Where will all the Profile 1.0 players be one year from now? Ebay?

He my dad writes college text books! Nothing we hate more than people buying used text books.:D

BTW, it is a scam, just like the one BR is trying to pull. Get people hooked, and then change the spec. You know that the peope who can afford a $1000 player won't mind buying a new one just to be current and able to access the new features.

When 1.1 comes out there will be a HUGE marketing campaign promoting the cool new features available. People will fall for it. You'll see.

So you think Sony should be bragging about having roughly the same number of SA players and millions of PS3s but can do no better than 2:1 in disc sales? Nothing to brag about to most rational people.

Just the same old hd-dvd spin.

ps3 doesnt matter. sales are only 2:1

ps3 does matter. sales are only 2:1.

If standalones matter so much.

why is the a ration of like 1.15 to 1, with an attach rate that hd-dvd fans claim to be 1,000,000 to 1. still result in you being outsold 2:1?

hmm, because the ps3 matters, volume matters, attach rates dont matter.

Just the same old hd-dvd spin.

ps3 doesnt matter. sales are only 2:1

ps3 does matter. sales are only 2:1.

If standalones matter so much.

why is the a ration of like 1.15 to 1, with an attach rate that hd-dvd fans claim to be 1,000,000 to 1. still result in you being outsold 2:1?

hmm, because the ps3 matters, volume matters, attach rates dont matter.

Funny - Viacom didn't agree with your analysis.:rolleyes:

I wonder why all this data from both camps is just now coming out? Why don't they announce this data (from NPD or whatever source) weekly, as they do with Nielsen/Videoscan. Seems like it's tracked weekly. You'd think the winning side each week would want to make sure everybody had the true numbers, not keep it a state secret. :confused:

It could just be that both sides don't want to release the data in units because the unit growth until recently could be slower than their worst scenarios. IE: things may not be going well for either camps as far as unit growth is concerned, and exposing that could take off the veneer of "cool, everyone wants this HDM stuff" that they're still trying hard to sell when they can take time off the war itself. Don't forget that HD DVD PG in CES '07 said 2.5M by xmas '07, and they revised that to 1M, slashed prices to $219 and will probably still miss the 1M number. Is BDA doing much better? We shall see. Better than something that looks that unhealthy doesn't mean a lot these days.

I'm sure someone in BDA must have debated with "should I show the recent higher weekly marketshare? What if people ask about units? What should we say then?"

So you think Sony should be bragging about having roughly the same number of SA players and millions of PS3s but can do no better than 2:1 in disc sales? Nothing to brag about to most rational people.

And what about Toshiba selling barely half the discs despite giving their players away at half the price? Now that's something to brag about :)

And what about Toshiba selling barely half the discs despite giving their players away at half the price? Now that's something to brag about :)

The original MSRP of the A2 was $399. It was then lowered to $299.

So how is this different then lowering the price of the PS3 by $100? We all know they should sell for at least $200 higher just so Sony could break even.

I know the standard diatribe - games consoles are sold at a loss.

How about BD players? I mean we do count the PS3 as a BD player? Right?

LOL at the HD-DVD crowd squirming now BD standalone sales are about to overtake HD-DVD!

Stick your head in the sand guys.

LOL at the HD-DVD crowd squirming now BD standalone sales are about to overtake HD-DVD!

Stick your head in the sand guys.

Pot meet kettle:D

LOL at the HD-DVD crowd squirming now BD standalone sales are about to overtake HD-DVD!

Stick your head in the sand guys.

Apparently you haven't read about studio defections and new promotions.

It's funny, in the video game world, the PS3 dropped it's price and outsold the Xbox 360 for like 1 week. The PS3 fanboys all went into overdrive. OMG this is it!! First place here we come!!

And then a week later it was back to normal, and the 360 still outsold it for the whole month.

So excuse me if I'm don't think Toshiba is ready to concede anything just yet.

LOL at the HD-DVD crowd squirming now BD standalone sales are about to overtake HD-DVD!

Stick your head in the sand guys.


BD about to overtake HD DVD?..link?.......ugh never mind! :rolleyes:

Pot meet kettle:D

+1 :p

Just saw a flyer this morning, Future Shop (Canada), $199Cdn for the A2 plus 3 free HD DVD movies, at 25$ say a movie, thats $125Cdn for the player!
Right next to that they show the Sony player for $499Cdn, no free movies.

It all kind of makes sense now, Toshiba saw the trend in stand alone player sales and are throwing a desperation sale to try get their ratios up to preserve the only bragging point they have left, a higher % of SL players.

Time to find a new HD DVD mantra, the "price is everything" theory just suffered a major blow.

The original MSRP of the A2 was $399. It was then lowered to $299.

So how is this different then lowering the price of the PS3 by $100? We all know they should sell for at least $200 higher just so Sony could break even.

I know the standard diatribe - games consoles are sold at a loss.

How about BD players? I mean we do count the PS3 as a BD player? Right?

I actually said "half the price" but nothing about cost: despite selling its players at give-away prices compared to BD (and starting with a nice lead!), HD DVD still sells barely half the discs. Nothing to brag about.

So other CE manufacturers will come into the market and sell cheap HD-DVD players at a loss so Toshiba doesn't have to lower its prices further? I'm sure the executives at those other CE companies are salivating at the chance to be so noble and to come to Toshiba's rescue.:):):)

Typo from my part, I meant they gonna sell them cheaper, but not at a loss.

You know, maybe everyone should just agree to an armistice until the numbers are high enough to matter.

I mean a 2:1 ratio sounds great, until you realize that on some titles, that ratio is also the actual number of movies sold. :D

Well, ATM it isn't really much to brag about anyway. PS3 sales and continued to increase and we know that. Add to it the claim that BD stand alones have moved above HD DVD and then look at software sales. If Sony's claim is true, software sales actually went down. That isn't a good thing for any of us.

People are blind...I wonder how long they'll feed on the feces that Sony shoves? It's sickening.

How long - think Bose

Yeah, especially since Sony undercuts every other BD manufacturer with it's subsidized PS3. I bet Sony is outselling every other BD manufacturer that way. I'm sure they're happy with that.

Or I'm sure Sony is giving Samsung, Philip, Panasonic, and everyone else a piece of their PS3 pro........

Well they obviously don't care since they keep announcing BD players and reject the idea of building standalone hd dvd players. Why is that?

Well they obviously don't care since they keep announcing BD players and reject the idea of building standalone hd dvd players. Why is that?Why is that? This should be enough reason...

Significant Progress Made Toward Creation of Joint Blu-ray DiscTM Patent License (http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_07-02-21_pr.pdf)

MPEG LA announced today that the fourth meeting
of essential Blu-ray DiscTM patent owners, currently consisting of 18 companies...

Participating companies include CyberLink Corporation; Dell Inc.; Hewlett-Packard Company; Hitachi Ltd.; Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.; LG Electronics Inc.; Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic); Mitsubishi Electric Corporation; Pioneer Corporation; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corporation; Sonic Solutions; Sony Corporation; TDK Corporation; Victor Company of Japan, Ltd.; and Warner Home Video Inc.They are a cartel. If BD wins, they all make money by licensing to others.

Edit: removed Dell comment

Well, ATM it isn't really much to brag about anyway. PS3 sales and continued to increase and we know that. Add to it the claim that BD stand alones have moved above HD DVD and then look at software sales. If Sony's claim is true, software sales actually went down. That isn't a good thing for any of us.

Actually, let's see : 300 sold how many in week1?

Whoa, the HD-DVD defense force is in full effect this morning. The fact that Blu-ray has trim the lead in stand alones to a mere 10% is astounding compared to what we have been hearing from Toshiba and the HD-DVD promo group the last 1.5 years. This goes to show that price is not the end all be all that all the HD-DVD supporters claim it is. And with even cheaper no-name brands coming, it does not really help the cause that much.

However, I do believe the Paramount deflection will increase sales for Tosh but I don't know to what extent. I think the major development will be if/when Sony can get the $300 player for the holiday season, it that happens, look for bluray sales to blow past Hd-DVD sales along with another 2-3 Million PS3 sold.

Funny - Viacom didn't agree with your analysis.:rolleyes:

150 million will do that any analysis

150 million will do that any analysisIf you're going to keep that up, you might as well increase the number to make it look better.

If you're going to keep that up, you might as well increase the number to make it look better.

Huh? Keep what up? I was implying that the Paramount shift was due to monetary reasons from Toshiba.

All the HD-DVD people that said that console doesn't matter is in for a rude awakening. The reason for the low attach rate on console is simple. It's not that gamer doesn't buy movies. It's that a large percentage of next gen console are still hooked up to SDTV just like most american are still watching SDTV. That's going to change alot this X'mas when 42" HDTV are expected to drop to $700. The PS3 attach rate will jump in large margin when those with new HDTV start using their Blu-ray player for movies.

I know about 10 family with next gen console and only 3 of them have HDTV. 3-4 plans to buy one this year and the rest will probably hold out till SDTV goes off the air. this could mean a 100% increase attach rate for console in the next 3-4 months. Bye Bye HD-DVD.

I feel really sorry for you guys that think a studio would drop a format for $150 million dollars or even 300 million. That is a drop in the bucket for these companies based on future sales. Get over it or go back to school and take a few business classes. Maybe then you won't keep making a fool out of yourself.

All the HD-DVD people that said that console doesn't matter is in for a rude awakening. The reason for the low attach rate on console is simple. It's not that gamer does buy movies. It's that a large percentage of next gen console are still hooked up to SDTV just like most american are still watching SDTV. That's going to change alot this X'mas when 42" HDTV are expected to drop to $700. The PS3 attach rate will jump in large margin when those with new HDTV start using their Blu-ray player for movies.

I know about 10 family with next gen console and only 3 of them have HDTV. 3-4 plans to buy one this year and the rest will probably hold out till SDTV goes off the air. this could mean a 100% increase attach rate for console in the next 3-4 months. Bye Bye HD-DVD.

That's a good one! Keep trying to convince yourself that mom and pop will buy a game console to watch movies. Geeks will, mom and pop will not.

Wow, so Toshiba is admitting that BD standalone sales beat them in July:

While the competition may claim leadership based on one month of data, Toshiba has had continued sales leadership in every month since the original HD DVD players launched 17 months ago.

And only a 55:42:3 marketshare YTD? Toshiba standalones were 50% cheaper (or more) so far this year and they can only muster 55% of the stanalone market??? This isn't even counting PS3s!

They are screwed. Their stupid "price is everything" ploy has failed. THAT'S why they had to buy Paramount off. Wow, I seriously had no idea they were doing that poorly. No wonder they were worried about where software sales were headed.

That's a good one! Keep trying to convince yourself that mom and pop will buy a game console to watch movies. Geeks will, mom and pop will not.

Not talking about J6P. I'm talking about that ~5 million PS3 installed base of which up to 70% don't have a HDTV to connect to yet. Once they switch over to HDTV this X'mas (as many plans to). The attach rate will double. Bye Bye HD-DVD.

Not talking about J6P. I'm talking about that ~5 million PS3 installed base of which up to 70% don't have a HDTV to connect to yet. Once they switch over to HDTV this X'mas (as many plans to). The attach rate will double. Bye Bye HD-DVD.

Actually and indepent study group found that PS3 users were buying BR movies because there were so few good PS3 games. They believe that once the new games come out this fall, PS3 owners will quit buying movies and use them as only a game machine.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Actually and indepent study group found that PS3 users were buying BR movies because there were so few good PS3 games. They believe that once the new games come out this fall, PS3 owners will quit buying movies and use them as only a game machine.

Don't shoot the messenger.


this the same group that says only 40% of ps3 people know it can play blu-ray?

or the group of people that says there is no attach rate of blu-ray movies to ps3 consoles, and stand alones matter.
---

for a year blu-ray people have been attacked for the attach rate.

how about some of those attackers comeback and answer why with a price thats 50-60% BELOW that of blu-ray, can toshiba's standalones only have a 10% spread in standalones?
--

Along with:

if the ps3 does not matter, and ps3 users dont not count.

then the attach rate for blu-ray must be at least DOUBLE that of hd-dvd.

and if attach rate is all that matters, how in trouble is hd-dvd really?

Actually and indepent study group found that PS3 users were buying BR movies because there were so few good PS3 games. They believe that once the new games come out this fall, PS3 owners will quit buying movies and use them as only a game machine.

Don't shoot the messenger.

I don't think they will stop buying movies entirely. I will agree that the per console attach rate will still be lower than any standalone unit since they are pulling double duty. But doubling the number of PS3 being attached to a HDTV will still mean a significant increase in movie sales.

I feel really sorry for you guys that think a studio would drop a format for $150 million dollars or even 300 million. That is a drop in the bucket for these companies based on future sales. Get over it or go back to school and take a few business classes. Maybe then you won't keep making a fool out of yourself.

Not if you figure out the current and future sales in the 18m quoted time frame. At current rates of adoption the money quoted is more than what any of the studios would make from the sale of titles even at MSRP, and leaves them the option of reselling these titles again should the current chosen format not become mainstream. From Paramount's point of view it's a WIN, WIN, WIN.

Win 1: Liquidity now with less personal cash outlay in promotions.
Win 2: "All news is good news" as it gets their name out and makes sure everyone is aware of Transformers, and Shrek3.
Win 3: Ability to cash in even if this decision was incorrect.

Why is that? This should be enough reason...

Significant Progress Made Toward Creation of Joint Blu-ray DiscTM Patent License (http://www.mpegla.com/news/n_07-02-21_pr.pdf)

They are a cartel. If BD wins, they all make money by licensing to others.

Edit: removed Dell comment

And if hd dvd wins, Toshiba makes money by licensing it out to all the other CEs as well, right? How is that any different? If the BDA is a cartel, then Toshiba is a monopoly.

Wow, so Toshiba is admitting that BD standalone sales beat them in July:



And only a 55:42:3 marketshare YTD? Toshiba standalones were 50% cheaper (or more) so far this year and they can only muster 55% of the stanalone market??? This isn't even counting PS3s!

They are screwed. Their stupid "price is everything" ploy has failed. THAT'S why they had to buy Paramount off. Wow, I seriously had no idea they were doing that poorly. No wonder they were worried about where software sales were headed.

I had heard in the insiders thread that what they actually meant(BDA), was that they sold more $ worth of players, not more units.

Hasn't that been the HD-DVD point all along, sell them at a lower price and sell more units. As you sell more units, and software sales ramp up, you do better in the long run. That's why they're concerned about attach rates, and that's why Paramount decided to go with them. They feel they have the better long term strategy. And when we enter the holiday seasons with HD-DVD players in the same ballpark as upconverting sd-dvd player prices, guess who's not only going to keep their sales lead, but expand on it. :p

Not if you figure out the current and future sales in the 18m quoted time frame. At current rates of adoption the money quoted is more than what any of the studios would make from the sale of titles even at MSRP, and leaves them the option of reselling these titles again should the current chosen format not become mainstream. From Paramount's point of view it's a WIN, WIN, WIN.

Win 1: Liquidity now with less personal cash outlay in promotions.
Win 2: "All news is good news" as it gets their name out and makes sure everyone is aware of Transformers, and Shrek3.
Win 3: Ability to cash in even if this decision was incorrect.

I keep hearing this 18 months figure. But after hearing a Sony exec saying to stay out of the war for 18 months, it makes me wonder if this isn't just more damage control. Is it really that it will take another 18 months before the BD profiles are ready?

I don't think they will stop buying movies entirely. I will agree that the per console attach rate will still be lower than any standalone unit since they are pulling double duty. But doubling the number of PS3 being attached to a HDTV will still mean a significant increase in movie sales.

Not if their attach rate drops more than 50% when the PS3 starts getting games. I think Sony's best hope is if game developers decide to abandon the PS3. At that point, all you can really use it for is playing movies and downloading content.

I had heard in the insiders thread that what they actually meant(BDA), was that they sold more $ worth of players, not more units.

No, that was YTD numbers for Europe. They were two different announcements. At IFA they claimed 60% (or something like that) of total standalone marketshare by revenue. Here theya re claiming (and Toshiba is admitting) that they sold more units in July. That should really worry you if you thijnk low prices alone will win the war.

I feel really sorry for you guys that think a studio would drop a format for $150 million dollars or even 300 million. That is a drop in the bucket for these companies based on future sales. Get over it or go back to school and take a few business classes. Maybe then you won't keep making a fool out of yourself.

Well, I hope the simple math in my answer will not be too dfficult for you to follow:

Why not? Given 150 mil. I would. If you go by the typical price/cost level. A HDM probably net the studio about $5-$7 each. Even if 50% of that 150 mil is soft money (incentive, cross promotion, etc). That's still 10-15 million disc. No studio is going to sell that many HDM disc in 18 months. Maybe not even in 2-3 years. So why not take the money and run. If you decide to go back into Blu-ray 18 month later. Many Blu-ray consumer will still buy those one time exclusive HD-DVD titles once they are available in blu-ray anyway. Basically, it's not lost sale, it's just delayed and you got 150 mil in the meantime. It's a great business decision on the part of Paramount

Every time I get near the HD player displays in a Frys or Best Buy, it seems there is always a sales person pushing the BD players. Not too surprising to find that the BD players are gaining in numbers. If Joe just bought a HDTV, chances are another $500 for a "superior" player is reasonable. And many of the movies are cheaper in the blue packages.

I have an A1 and an XA2. The thought of buying a BD player doesn't bother me, but right now I just buy or rent the SD movies not available on HD-DVD and enjoy them upconverted.

-Byrd

I keep hearing this 18 months figure. But after hearing a Sony exec saying to stay out of the war for 18 months, it makes me wonder if this isn't just more damage control. Is it really that it will take another 18 months before the BD profiles are ready?

Profiles are done. Availability of players at the different profile levels to be determined. Also the upgrade paths for the the players at lower profile levels to higher profile levels TBD.

This is the same as with every technology purchase. You have the choice to wait till sometime in the future for the feature-price point you are looking for, or buy now and starting enjoying the future NOW. Doesn't make a difference if its red, blue or purple There will always be fence sitters and those who jump in feet first.
just my 5cents.

Profiles are done. Availability of players at the different profile levels to be determined. Also the upgrade paths for the the players at lower profile levels to higher profile levels TBD.

This is the same as with every technology purchase. You have the choice to wait till sometime in the future for the feature-price point you are looking for, or buy now and starting enjoying the future NOW. Doesn't make a difference if its red, blue or purple There will always be fence sitters and those who jump in feet first.
just my 5cents.

Yep, first adopter have no right to bitch if they get burnt. You get the bragging rights, you take the risk.

Not if their attach rate drops more than 50% when the PS3 starts getting games. I think Sony's best hope is if game developers decide to abandon the PS3. At that point, all you can really use it for is playing movies and downloading content.Personally I think this is a myth. If someone is a hard-core gamer, and not really interested in HDM; do you think it likely that they are just sitting around looking for uses for their PS3? No, of course not; they are either playing PS2 games, Xbox360 games, Wii games, etc. Since they have the player already purchased, it makes sense that those who are interesting in HDM will buy BD, all else being equal. And once some of the initial startup costs come down on PS3 Sony will be making a lot more money on games than on anything related to BD (just look at the margins on games vs. movies).

In addition, as HDM in general become more talked about, advertised, etc I supsect there are folks who haven't used a PS3 for BD due to lack of interest that may investiate it. This also goes along with continued adoption of HDTV displays (say a gamer buys PS3; uses it with an old TV, then buys an HDTV; now he may be interested in BD).

It's speculation either way, but I think it's ridiculous to assume that everyone watching movies on a PS3 will quit once better games become available.

Once BD standalone pricing is significantly below PS3 (probably by this time next year) the PS3 will become less of a factor, and standalone sales be the determining factor. But the PS3 makes for a nice transition.

Personally I think this is a myth. If someone is a hard-core gamer, and not really interested in HDM; do you think it likely that they are just sitting around looking for uses for their PS3? No, of course not; they are either playing PS2 games, Xbox360 games, Wii games, etc. Since they have the player already purchased, it makes sense that those who are interesting in HDM will buy BD, all else being equal. And once some of the initial startup costs come down on PS3 Sony will be making a lot more money on games than on anything related to BD (just look at the margins on games vs. movies).


In addition, as HDM in general become more talked about, advertised, etc I supsect there are folks who haven't used a PS3 for BD due to lack of interest that may investiate it. This also goes along with continued adoption of HDTV displays (say a gamer buys PS3; uses it with an old TV, then buys an HDTV; now he may be interested in BD).

It's speculation either way, but I think it's ridiculous to assume that everyone watching movies on a PS3 will quit once better games become available.

Once BD standalone pricing is significantly below PS3 (probably by this time next year) the PS3 will become less of a factor, and standalone sales be the determining factor. But the PS3 makes for a nice transition.

OK my example:
bought the PS3 more for a player than games, Tried a few game demos was wowed and bought a few games too. Still mostly movie purchases than game purchases, not saying I wont buy games just not as frequently as movies.
For a gamer I would assume an opposite response except for the fact that there a more movie releases, and are cheaper than games.
I think in the end Blu-ray was pulled up by the PS3, and will be sustained by gamers (PS1, PS2) once standalones become more mainstream.

"Trying to show that Blu-ray sales have been double that of HD DVD, Sony shows that both formats have been on a decline.
At CEDIA EXPO 2007, Sony meant to tote the fact that Blu-ray disc sales have been twice that of HD DVD over the past year. Instead, as you can see in the picture over on the right, sales of both formats have been on a deep decline."

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/09/07/sony_goofs_by_showing_declinging_blu-ray_sales/1

"Trying to show that Blu-ray sales have been double that of HD DVD, Sony shows that both formats have been on a decline.
At CEDIA EXPO 2007, Sony meant to tote the fact that Blu-ray disc sales have been twice that of HD DVD over the past year. Instead, as you can see in the picture over on the right, sales of both formats have been on a deep decline."

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/09/07/sony_goofs_by_showing_declinging_blu-ray_sales/1

Summer general sucks for retail since people are either on vacation or are actually at movie theatres watching movies on screen. Wait till all the summer blockbuster start hitting the DVD shelves and you'll see both format rebound. Why do you think that TV studios generally runs re-runs during the Summer or major holiday seasons.

I had heard in the insiders thread that what they actually meant(BDA), was that they sold more $ worth of players, not more units.

What they actually meant was that yes, they have 63% market share in revenue. But they also clearly stated that yes, they are also selling more units for the past couple months. People thought it was just spin, but indeed...it's units and revenue. Now they don't have larger overall SAL marketshare, so that's where they brought in the revenue. But week by week over the summer, BD has been ahead.

Hasn't that been the HD-DVD point all along, sell them at a lower price and sell more units. As you sell more units, and software sales ramp up, you do better in the long run. That's why they're concerned about attach rates, and that's why Paramount decided to go with them. They feel they have the better long term strategy. And when we enter the holiday seasons with HD-DVD players in the same ballpark as upconverting sd-dvd player prices, guess who's not only going to keep their sales lead, but expand on it. :p

But...they DID lose the sales lead...that's why people are making a big deal about this. Certainly it's quite feasible they'll gain it right back due to this P/DW deal, since BD SALs didn't eclipse HD-DVD players by a whole lot in that time period...but given that they did, with that price advantage for HD-DVD already in place...it does give an indication that price isn't the end all be all some people make it out to be.

Yep, $200 player is not going to get the mass consumer to pickup HD-DVD and pay $25 for a movie when they are used to getting new releases at $15 a pop. At this point. I would say the market is pass the first adopter stage and moving into the pro-sumer stage. These are people with a fair amount of disposable income that's willing to pay more for a brand name product. The Mass consumer will not come till media priced drops to under $20 for new releases.

Well, I hope the simple math in my answer will not be too dfficult for you to follow:

Why not? Given 150 mil. I would. If you go by the typical price/cost level. A HDM probably net the studio about $5-$7 each. Even if 50% of that 150 mil is soft money (incentive, cross promotion, etc). That's still 10-15 million disc. No studio is going to sell that many HDM disc in 18 months. Maybe not even in 2-3 years. So why not take the money and run. If you decide to go back into Blu-ray 18 month later. Many Blu-ray consumer will still buy those one time exclusive HD-DVD titles once they are available in blu-ray anyway. Basically, it's not lost sale, it's just delayed and you got 150 mil in the meantime. It's a great business decision on the part of Paramount

How do you know it is $150M and 18 months? It's amazing how a rumor is accepted as fact! That's a basic problem with our society!!!!

18 months?

Like I said before, the Blu-ray people had better hope it is not 18 months. 2007 Q4 and 2008 Q4 are in those 18 months, and IMO those are two of the most crucial quarters for this battle.

What they actually meant was that yes, they have 63% market share in revenue. But they also clearly stated that yes, they are also selling more units for the past couple months. People thought it was just spin, but indeed...it's units and revenue. Now they don't have larger overall SAL marketshare, so that's where they brought in the revenue. But week by week over the summer, BD has been ahead.



But...they DID lose the sales lead...that's why people are making a big deal about this. Certainly it's quite feasible they'll gain it right back due to this P/DW deal, since BD SALs didn't eclipse HD-DVD players by a whole lot in that time period...but given that they did, with that price advantage for HD-DVD already in place...it does give an indication that price isn't the end all be all some people make it out to be.

According to Tosh, NPD data shows that HD DVD players have outsold BD players every single month except one. Also, when a new player gets released (which also happens to be the lowest cost for that format) you will see a bump in sales - latent demand. This is nothing surprising. But to use one month data to prove a trend is misleading....Sony has a habit of playing fast and loose with the data/facts on a regular basis....as part of their general marketing and PR tactics.

This whole argument about PS3 owners and attach rates is a red herring. The "PS3 effect" isn't going to go away. If the games are bad, then movies are therefore more attractive. If the games are good, then more PS3s get sold and the install base grows for when a major marketing push lands (see the persistent effect of 300 for example).

HD DVD supporters would like to delude themselves into thinking that winter will provide them with a reprieve in the form of many good games for the PS3, but that logic is very much flawed. Every PS3 sold is another pillar upon which Blu-ray sales can stand. Every PS3 sold provides more volume demand for Blu-ray replication.

18 months?

Like I said before, the Blu-ray people had better hope it is not 18 months. 2007 Q4 and 2008 Q4 are in those 18 months, and IMO those are two of the most crucial quarters for this battle.

Q4 07 means nothing. There are not enough household with HDTV to make a significant impact either way.

$200 player is not going to matter when most of america is still watching SDTV and not when HDMs new releases are at $25 compare to DVD new release at $15.

Q4 08 would be more interesting with SDTV due to end early 09. Most household would be forced to adopt HDTV. If media price comes down. that would be when mass adoption will occur. But we also got the whole of 08 where J6P would walk into a store and see more brand name with blu-ray and only Toshiba and Onkyo for HD-DVD.

One problem for HD-DVD though is that as HDTV adoption increase. those insignificant PS3 sales will become a major factor as people start using their PS3 on HDTV and will finally be able to take advantage of Blu-ray.

This whole argument about PS3 owners and attach rates is a red herring. The "PS3 effect" isn't going to go away. If the games are bad, then movies are therefore more attractive. If the games are good, then more PS3s get sold and the install base grows for when a major marketing push lands (see the persistent effect of 300 for example).

HD DVD supporters would like to delude themselves into thinking that winter will provide them with a reprieve in the form of many good games for the PS3, but that logic is very much flawed. Every PS3 sold is another pillar upon which Blu-ray sales can stand. Every PS3 sold provides more volume demand for Blu-ray replication.

But what about thier CE partners that can't compete with the PS3?:)

18 months?

Like I said before, the Blu-ray people had better hope it is not 18 months. 2007 Q4 and 2008 Q4 are in those 18 months, and IMO those are two of the most crucial quarters for this battle.

Heh. 18 months is plenty of time. Q4 2007 is in the bag already for Blu-ray. 2008? Paramount better hope they get a sequel to transformers out before then, or that won't make a difference, either.

Now after the Q4 annihilation that HDDVD faces, maybe it won't take Paramount 18 months...

But what about thier CE partners that can't compete with the PS3?:)
Can't compete? Surely you jest. If Toshiba can make a unit for $299 MSRP, I'm pretty sure any Blu-ray manufacturer can do something similar with an SoC solution. The technologies are virtually identical in hardware spec aside from the aperture tolerance of the blue-violet laser diode (which we've got reports coming in at a whopping... $9).

If the standalones are priced equal to or above the PS3, it's because the manufacturers believe they can sell the units at that price.

I feel really sorry for you guys that think a studio would drop a format for $150 million dollars or even 300 million. That is a drop in the bucket for these companies based on future sales. Get over it or go back to school and take a few business classes. Maybe then you won't keep making a fool out of yourself.

Apparently you don't understand business at all. $150m is a big deal for almost any company, especially a studio (they aren't as big as you might think). It's simple, they balance what the gain on one side ($150m), against what they lose on the other side (blu-ray disc sales for the next 18 months). It's not too hard to see that the $150m is going to win this easily.

The real kicker though is that when the 18 months are up, they get to release all their encodes in blu-ray format and make back some percent of that lost revenue anyways.

Think about it, why would they quit manufacturing blu-ray movies that they had already gone to the expense of producing if they were not required to do so by some sort of contract? Manufacturing more copies of a master you have already produced is trivial.

Quite frankly, I don't see why HD DVD folks even bother trying to deny it, after all, there is no shame in a business taking the money; that's what they are in business for in the first place. I think it was a sweet-deal that they made and I applaud them for it.

It's a win for Paramount, they got the $$$. It's a win for Toshiba, they got a few more months of life-support. It's a loss for blu-ray, this war would have been largely over by the end of the year without this move, now it will go on for a while yet.

But don't try to make this into something it's not. It's not a merit-based endorsement of the HD DVD plan. Toshiba and Paramount of have parsed their words carefully to try to play down the deal without actually having to lie about it. I trust the New York Times to give me a more honest assessment of what occurred, than the parties involved (who are motivated to keep the deal secret).

It baffles me that HD DVD fans are so insecure that they can't accept this. It doesn't cheapen the announcement in any way to do so. It's also starting to appear as if the last ditch effort to save HD DVD is probably going to be in vain too...blu-ray just has too many advantages to overcome at this point.

Can't compete? Surely you jest. If Toshiba can make a unit for $299 MSRP, I'm pretty sure any Blu-ray manufacturer can do something similar with an SoC solution. The technologies are virtually identical in hardware spec aside from the aperture tolerance of the blue-violet laser diode (which we've got reports coming in at a whopping... $9).

If the standalones are priced equal to or above the PS3, it's because the manufacturers believe they can sell the units at that price.

Dont you think that sooner or later these CE companies will build DF players or HD DVD players to actually sell players...Sony currently, IMO, has the BD player market sewed up.

But what about thier CE partners that can't compete with the PS3?:)

I think thru out 08, you'll see a lot of Standalone Blu-ray player price below the PS3.

Q4 07 means nothing. There are not enough household with HDTV to make a significant impact either way.

$200 player is not going to matter when most of america is still watching SDTV and not when HDMs new releases are at $25 compare to DVD new release at $15.Exactly.Q4 08 would be more interesting with SDTV due to end early 09. Most household would be forced to adopt HDTV. If media price comes down. that would be when mass adoption will occur. But we also got the whole of 08 where J6P would walk into a store and see more brand name with blu-ray and only Toshiba and Onkyo for HD-DVD.I'm not really sure there will be a sudden turn-around in late 08 either, as far as HDTV sales. Too early to tell. But most households won't really be forced to adopt HDTV, just get a digital decoder for there exising NTSC sets; and that's only for the fairly small percentage of those getting their signal OTA. Sat and Cable customers aren't affected by the shutdown of analog. If services are removed, the provider will make a way that the digital service can be received (new STB's, or whatever). I get your point, I just think it will continue as a slowly increasing ramp, rather than a sudden rapid jump.
One problem for HD-DVD though is that as HDTV adoption increase. those insignificant PS3 sales will become a major factor as people start using their PS3 on HDTV and will finally be able to take advantage of Blu-ray.I agree. I don't think Sony selling more good games for PS3 can be construed as a bad thing for the format. If I was an HD DVD supporter I'd be hoping for PS3 games to all bomb. Good games mean hype, good PR, etc. Happy PS3 owners will pay attention to info, trailers, etc on PSN. All good for HDM in general (raise awareness), and for BD in particular, IMO.

Dont you think that sooner or later these CE companies will build DF players or HD DVD players to actually sell players...Sony currently, IMO, has the BD player market sewed up.
Dual formats? Don't make me laugh. The dual format players have yet to come down below $1000. Wake me when they're not more expensive than buying a standalone for each format separately.

Can't compete? Surely you jest. If Toshiba can make a unit for $299 MSRP, I'm pretty sure any Blu-ray manufacturer can do something similar with an SoC solution. The technologies are virtually identical in hardware spec aside from the aperture tolerance of the blue-violet laser diode (which we've got reports coming in at a whopping... $9).

If the standalones are priced equal to or above the PS3, it's because the manufacturers believe they can sell the units at that price.
I think you've missed the main REASON that HD DVD players are now cheaper. The development of a "reference platform", and with one consistent player spec, has meant that completed designs can be dished out to new CE manufacturers who can build them cheaply with comparatively very little development costs.

Contrast this with the wide range of platforms being designed by different companies in the Bluray camp, and the specs have caused the player development to be a "work in progress" with some very HIGH development costs - not to mention the future costs of updating and fixing these disparate platforms in ongoing efforts to make them fully compatible with all software releases.

Bluray is not in the position to compete on price at this time, and it is nothing to do with the cost of the blue laser, or the decoder chips.

I got some information today from a very good source at CEDIA that Denon's woes with their Bluray player are primarily that the development costs of their platform have significantly exceeded their expectations.

There is more information coming on the Denon situation, but I am not at liberty to disclose - keep your ears open over the next three months.

What I can disclose is that Denon confirmed in a conversation today that they will not be releasing this player this year... despite Talkstr8t's (mis?)information to the contrary...

Heh. 18 months is plenty of time. Q4 2007 is in the bag already for Blu-ray. 2008? Paramount better hope they get a sequel to transformers out before then, or that won't make a difference, either.

Now after the Q4 annihilation that HDDVD faces, maybe it won't take Paramount 18 months...

Do you take the blinders off when you drive?:rolleyes:

Wait, so now are we moving the ever-so-artificial date of HD DVD's date back yet again? So now Q4 2007 doesn't matter at all?

So everytime Blu-ray can't get it done, are we just gonna keep moving that date back? Pretty soon Q4 2008 won't be important. Just you wait until 2012!!!


I think thru out 08, you'll see a lot of Standalone Blu-ray player price below the PS3.

Man is that called setting yourself up for disappointment.

Wait, so now are we moving the ever-so-artificial date of HD DVD's date back yet again? So now Q4 2007 doesn't matter at all?

So everytime Blu-ray can't get it done, are we just gonna keep moving that date back? Pretty soon Q4 2008 won't be important. Just you wait until 2012!!!




Man is that called setting yourself up for disappointment.

+1

The goal post gets moved again.

Now the mantra is "PDW deal no biggie, delays death only 18 months"

At this rate, maybe Sony can close the deal by 2026?

Originally Posted by UxiSXRD
Heh. 18 months is plenty of time. Q4 2007 is in the bag already for Blu-ray. 2008? Paramount better hope they get a sequel to transformers out before then, or that won't make a difference, either.

Now after the Q4 annihilation that HDDVD faces, maybe it won't take Paramount 18 months...

"I'll have whatever he's drinking please!"

:D

Now the mantra is "PDW deal no biggie, delays death only 18 months"No, PDW is definitely a biggie; because it delays death for another 18 to 24 months. Actually, I had thought Uni would be going neutral probably next summer at the earliest, likely CES 2009; and then the 'war' would be irrellevant (doesn't mean HD DVD would die; it would just remain a niche format). With this annoucement that timing is still possible (with P/DW gong back neutral around that time), but much less likely. It will depend on how sales, costs, etc progress from here; probably more so than any backroom deals (as the market increases promotional money won't be as significant as it is when you're lucky to recover your matering/pressing costs due to low volume).

I'm saying that Q4 07 doesn't really matter in the real sense there won't be enough buyer to really matter. But Blu-ray will win in the number game anyway. Anyone walking into a retail store is going to see a shelf full of BD player with 1 HD-DVD sitting on the side (have you visited your local BB, CC, etc lately?). Not to mention that eveytime they walk into a Blockbuster they are going to see that big poster on the entrance that say "Blu-ray, the future of HD".

BD player are already retailing below the PS3 price, go check at Amazon.

Samsung's BD-P1200 is already reatailing at $450
Sony's BDP-S300 is retailing at $435
Panasonic BMP-BD10 is retailing at $510

I would not be surprise to see BD player below $400 this X'mas. Brand name players under $400 vs no name chinese player for $200, HD-DVD is going to get creamed.

[QUOTE=Michael Mullis;11561125]Wait, so now are we moving the ever-so-artificial date of HD DVD's date back yet again? So now Q4 2007 doesn't matter at all?

So everytime Blu-ray can't get it done, are we just gonna keep moving that date back? Pretty soon Q4 2008 won't be important. Just you wait until 2012!!!

LOL....I'm reminded of a thread I saw several months ago in the Home Theater Forums (before they went to their format war is dead policy)entitled something like...Is the HD-DVD format dead?---and the thread was actually started in late 2005!!!
I would really like to believe that most Blu-ray supporters have a firm enough grasp of reality to admit that the HD-DVD format is not going away - if it ever does - for a long, long time.
I also find it interesting the various spins that supporters of both formats are weaving based on the recent sales for standalone players. What I see is gridlock - neither side is in a position to claim victory. I mean, really, how many of those player sales in both formats were the result of early buying HDM aficionados simply going neutral. Hmmm, might make an interesting poll.
Public impulse type of buying is just not in the works yet so were in for a long haul boys. I watched THE ROAD WARRIOR in HD last night.....simply glorious.

Q4 08 would be more interesting with SDTV due to end early 09. I don't know where that comes from. The only thing that will end is the OTA transmission of analog TV. DVD and SDTV will still exist and cable and satellite companies already serve analog displays with set top boxes and will continue to do so. They only thing that works in the favor of these formats is that there will be no new CRT and SD displays to replace failing SD sets. People will still have tons of SD content to view on their fancy new displays, and will continue for quite some time in the future.

I'm saying that Q4 07 doesn't really matter in the real sense there won't be enough buyer to really matter. But Blu-ray will ein in the number game anyway.

BD player are already retailing below the PS3 price, go check at Amazon.

Samsung's BD-P1200 is already reatailing at $450
Sony's BDP-S300 is retailing at $435
Panasonic BMP-BD10 is retailing at $510

I would not be surprise to see BD player below $400 this X'mas. Brans name player under $400 vs no name chinese player for $200, HD-DVD is going to get creamed.

Really?

Funny - you scenerio requires things that don't exist yet.

HD DVD already has what you want - Under $200 players and plenty of HD movies including Blockbusters.

BD is STILL 2X the cost of HD DVD. And will continue to be so. REMEMBER . . ANY BD player released after 11.1.07 HAS TO BE at least profile 1.1. Haven't seen one of those yet - have you?

But you keep dreaming - good to do. Just don't cry when the rug is pulled out from underneath your precious BD format.

What was it again? Oh yea - 56/44:D

I am hoping that HD DVD gets to $99 and fast. HD DVD sales will still be the same, the fire sale pricing will continue to hurt them and Blu Ray will continue its expanding dominance.

Seriiously....HDDVD pricing is overrated.

I am beginning to believe that the news at CEDIA plus Paramount jumping, plus movie sales catching back up has really hit the BD folk hard enough to knock them out of reality.

Anyone walking into a retail store is going to see a shelf full of BD player with 1 HD-DVD sitting on the side (have you visited your local BB, CC, etc lately?).

Apparently we have and you haven't. HD DVD has its own room in the Magnolia store, and an endcap right next to the BD endcap showing off the HD DVD demo loop in just about every Best Buy in my area. Bel Air, White Marsh, Timonium, and one I saw this weekend in Columbia. And like the BD endcap there are movies right there to look at. Oh and the movie sections are equal 1 to 1 as well.

So now what? Customers go in and see two endcaps showing HD content..........but one is half the price of the other.

Next time my friend you might want to step into a Best Buy before talking.

Not to mention that eveytime they walk into a Blockbuster they are going to see that big poster on the entrance that say "Blu-ray, the future of HD"

Which is great. So then you need to go and spend a ton of money on the player. That will get the average Blockbuster customer hooked. .


BD player are already retailing below the PS3 price, go check at Amazon.

Samsung's BD-P1200 is already reatailing at $450
Sony's BDP-S300 is retailing at $435
Panasonic BMP-BD10 is retailing at $510[quote]

Which is still twice the cost of HD DVD. Hey how are those ranking against the Toshiba A2?? Any of them hit #1 rank recently?

Oh, and didn't one of your fellow soldiers tell us in another thread that Amazon didn't matter?

[Quote] I would not be surprise to see BD player below $400 this X'mas. Brans name player under $400 vs no name chinese player for $200, HD-DVD is going to get creamed.

I wouldn't be surprised either, because there won't be any.

I fear we are going to have to put some of you on suicide watch when some of this stuff doesn't come true. Thebland may have to be one of them.

Dual formats? Don't make me laugh. The dual format players have yet to come down below $1000. Wake me when they're not more expensive than buying a standalone for each format separately.


Wake up! LG BH200 will retail at $999.

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/lg_dual_high_def_dvd_player_coming_next_month/C157

Still too expensive for my taste, I wonder which format is keeping the price high? ;)

I am hoping that HD DVD gets to $99 and fast. HD DVD sales will still be the same, the fire sale pricing will continue to hurt them and Blu Ray will continue its expanding dominance.

Seriiously....HDDVD pricing is overrated.

So if $199 pricing is over rated and "fire sale" then $499 must be totally bloated and a consumer rip off . . right?:rolleyes:

But you hope it gets to $99?:confused:

And low pricing is going to hurt HD DVD?

You BD fanatics WISH you had low pricing! Or at the very least a full profile BD player for $1300 was it? (LMAO) Oops - that's a Profile 1.0 player - how quaint!

Hey Jeff . . . isn't time to play the game of "what if?":p

Maybe we can get Supermans to play also. He likes that game alot!

I am hoping that HD DVD gets to $99 and fast. HD DVD sales will still be the same, the fire sale pricing will continue to hurt them and Blu Ray will continue its expanding dominance.

Seriiously....HDDVD pricing is overrated.HD DVD's pricing is the perfect weapon. It either kills BD, or both. It's scorched earth at it's best. Even Ecklund admitted that it is hurting BD and the BDA. Toshiba's plan is brilliant. Sell millions of players in the US, China and India at very low margins while starving the BDA to death. Overall, why do you care unless the worst part of the scenarios happens?

No..... The pricing for Blu Ray is insuriing it succeeds. Quality players cost a bit more. HD DVD has a long way to go on that one......

Really?

Funny - you scenerio requires things that don't exist yet.

HD DVD already has what you want - Under $200 players and plenty of HD movies including Blockbusters.

BD is STILL 2X the cost of HD DVD. And will continue to be so. REMEMBER . . ANY BD player released after 11.1.07 HAS TO BE at least profile 1.1. Haven't seen one of those yet - have you?

But you keep dreaming - good to do. Just don't cry when the rug is pulled out from underneath your precious BD format.

What was it again? Oh yea - 56/44:D


Yea, just like the HD-DVD camp right.

When you lose the overall sale, you say PS3 shouldn't count.

When you were outsold 2:1. you say but look at the low attach rates of PS3.

Here you are celebrating a victory on a week that HD-DVD have 2 major new releases while BD have none that you still lost.

Now you are going to lose in standalone sales, wonder what excuses you will come up with?

HD-DVD have not chance in hell of any big gain this year. Transformer is not going to save your butt. Most consumer wouldn't be able to tell which studio backs which format, much less which movie comes from which studio. All they are going to see is what's on the shelves at major retailer and those are going mostly BD (have you been to a BB, CC, stc lately?). Yea each store may have endcap for each format but take a look at the shelves. In most BB store in San Jose, you'll be lucky to see a Toshiba HD-DVD on display along with multiple BD units.

As I said in another post. the mass consumer couldn't care less about all the tech stuff? It's a marketing, PR game. (which Sony is very good at) in which Toshiba is losing badly.

No..... The pricing for Blu Ray is insuriing it succeeds. Quality players cost a bit more. HD DVD has a long way to go on that one......

See! I told you. You are playing the game "What if?"

"Cost a bit more" . . . . ROTF - LMAO

And the Paramount decision was "A minor set back?":rolleyes:

I am beginning to believe that the news at CEDIA plus Paramount jumping, plus movie sales catching back up has really hit the BD folk hard enough to knock them out of reality.



Apparently we have and you haven't. HD DVD has its own room in the Magnolia store, and an endcap right next to the BD endcap showing off the HD DVD demo loop in just about every Best Buy in my area. Bel Air, White Marsh, Timonium, and one I saw this weekend in Columbia. And like the BD endcap there are movies right there to look at. Oh and the movie sections are equal 1 to 1 as well.

So now what? Customers go in and see two endcaps showing HD content..........but one is half the price of the other.

Next time my friend you might want to step into a Best Buy before talking.



Which is great. So then you need to go and spend a ton of money on the player. That will get the average Blockbuster customer hooked. .


[Quote] BD player are already retailing below the PS3 price, go check at Amazon.

Samsung's BD-P1200 is already reatailing at $450
Sony's BDP-S300 is retailing at $435
Panasonic BMP-BD10 is retailing at $510[quote]

Which is still twice the cost of HD DVD. Hey how are those ranking against the Toshiba A2?? Any of them hit #1 rank recently?

Oh, and didn't one of your fellow soldiers tell us in another thread that Amazon didn't matter?



I wouldn't be surprised either, because there won't be any.

I fear we are going to have to put some of you on suicide watch when some of this stuff doesn't come true. Thebland may have to be one of them.Michael, the Best Buys in the Baltimore area have always been about 50%/50% as far as shelf space devoted to Blu-ray/HD-DVD. But they've always tilted toward Blu-ray as far as displaying/demo'ing the players. I have some business later this evening up in Howard County. I'll try to swing by the Columbia Best Buy and see if the changes you describe are correct for the players.

Yea, just like the HD-DVD camp right.

When you lose the overall sale, you say PS3 shouldn't count.

Not me - PS3 counts for everything (it should it represents 90+% of all BD players)

When you were, outsold 2:1. you say but look at the low attach rates of PS3.

Nope - not going to play the "attach rate game" any more. Don't have to. Not with the last Nielsen number being 56/44. Very close to 1.1 wouldn't you say. Or are you going to cry me a river about no BD releases that week as an excuse?


Now you are going to lose in standalone sales, wonder what excuses you will come up with.

So the public is going to ignore $199 priced HD players and rush out and buy $499 and up HD players? Come on - be honest - you just came over from BD.com right?

HD-DVD have not chance in hell of any big gain this year. Transformer is not going to save your butt. Most consumer wouldn't be able to tell which studio backs which format, much less which movie comes from which studio. All they are going to see is what's on the shelves at major retailer and those are going mostly BD (have you been to a BB, CC, stc lately?).

Not a chance in hell heh? You have definitely been falling behind in your research. BD has EXACTLY 8 more titles than HD DVD. You call that a killing? An overwhelming majority or lead?

As a matter of fact I have been to both CC and BB here in Ft. Lauderdale. Both have 2 full racks - one for each format.

As I said in another post. the mass consumer wouldn't care less about all the tech stuff? It's a marketing, PR game. (which Sony is very good at). In which Toshiba is losing badly.

LMAO . . . The mass consumer CARES ABOUT PRICE! ANYTHING else is secondary. Or did you not see that in Q2 Vizio became the largest seller of FPD HDTV's. Pushed Sony down to 6th place.

Sony sure has done a number on you as far as PR - THAT is for sure!

HD DVD's pricing is the perfect weapon. It either kills BD, or both. It's scorched earth at it's best. Even Ecklund admitted that it is hurting BD and the BDA. Toshiba's plan is brilliant. Sell millions of players in the US, China and India at very low margins while starving the BDA to death. Overall, why do you care unless the worst part of the scenarios happens?Slim, it Toshiba's brilliant plan is as you describe it's not working.

1. They haven't sold millions of players in the US. Admittedly, the ones that they have sold, were sold at low margins. Obviously not making major friends of the CE retailers.

2. Blu-ray is NOT being starved to death. Blu-ray players are selling at profitable markups and the retailers are becoming partial toward Blu-ray (as you'd expect).

3. Blu-ray "stand alone" player sales have caught up with and then surpassed stand alone HD-DVD player sales. "Brand Name" CE manufacturers are going into Blu-ray design/production/sales big time. Toshiba is bottom feeding in China for 3rd tier manufacturers. I suspect non-desperate retailers will want to avoid these no-name models with their pitiful potential for profit. So dream on of massive HD-DVD sales this Christmas at unknown retail locations. Meanwhile massive quantities of Blu-ray players are actually being manufactured and actually will be available and actually sold at reasonable prices.

Yep, Toshiba's strategy is NOT brilliant; it's STUPID and counterproductive.

The "public" does not have a HDTV. They are still perfectly happy watch DVD on their SDTV. You "public" is not going to buy new release HDMs at $25 when they can get DVD for $15 a pop. There is no "public" and will not be till HDTV drops to a decent price and HDM drops to under $20 for new releases.

The "public" does not have a HDTV. They are still perfectly happy watch DVD on their SDTV. You "public" is not going to buy new release HDMs at $25 when they can get DVD for $15 a pop. There is no "public" and will not be till HDTV drops to a decent price and HDM drops to under $20 for new releases.

Hey! What happened to your "BD will take over the world" attitude?

Now you are changing the subject - think that will help?

I guess I must have really hit home heh? You totally ignored my post.

Michael, the Best Buys in the Baltimore area have always been about 50%/50% as far as shelf space devoted to Blu-ray/HD-DVD. But they've always tilted toward Blu-ray as far as displaying/demo'ing the players.

Yeah, up until around the beginning of the summer when they started putting Toshiba players on the endcaps.



I have some business later this evening up in Howard County. I'll try to swing by the Columbia Best Buy and see if the changes you describe are correct for the players.

Please do. Then swing out to Bel Air and I can show you what they display out here.

Slim, it Toshiba's brilliant plan is as you describe it's not working.
Yep, Toshiba's strategy is NOT brilliant; it's STUPID and counterproductive.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1131/aug24ex0.png

Maybe you need to spend more time in the FUD University. Your spin is not compelling.

Not me - PS3 counts for everything (it should it represents 90+% of all BD players)



Nope - not going to play the "attach rate game" any more. Don't have to. Not with the last Nielsen number being 56/44. Very close to 1.1 wouldn't you say. Or are you going to cry me a river about no BD releases that week as an excuse?




So the public is going to ignore $199 priced HD players and rush out and buy $499 and up HD players? Come on - be honest - you just came over from BD.com right?



Not a chance in hell heh? You have definitely been falling behind in your research. BD has EXACTLY 8 more titles than HD DVD. You call that a killing? An overwhelming majority or lead?

As a matter of fact I have been to both CC and BB here in Ft. Lauderdale. Both have 2 full racks - one for each format.



LMAO . . . The mass consumer CARES ABOUT PRICE! ANYTHING else is secondary. Or did you not see that in Q2 Vizio became the largest seller of FPD HDTV's. Pushed Sony down to 6th place.

Sony sure has done a number on you as far as PR - THAT is for sure!

Your PS3=90% of BD sales (which happens to be a lie). PS3 however is going to kick HD-DVD's behind this X'mas. As many have already said. the low attach rate is because a lot of next gen console are still hooked up to SDTV. As more and more console owner picks up HDTV. The attach rate is grow, it will always be lower than Standalone player since console are pulling double duty but even a simple doubling of attach rate will kill HD-DVD for good.

How pitiful. Here you are celebrating a victory on a week with two major new releases (Heros is arguably the hottest TV series release this year) which you still lost. Other than Transformer. Wonder how many hit titles you got this year. So what, We'll see thing back to noraml (66-34) in a couple weeks and then get another bump when transformer comes out but it's not going to change the YTD number.

Guess I already answered your $199 player question. Yes, they will ignore it as they won't buy HDM at $25 and they certain won't be able to rent HD-DVD at blockbuster. :D

Your PS3=90% of BD sale is going to kick HD-DVD's behind this X'mas. As many have already said. the low attach rate is because a lot of next gen console are still hooked up to SDTV. As more and more console owner picks up HDTV. The attach rate is grow, it will always be lower than Standalone player since console are pulling double duty but even a simple doubling of attach rate will kill HD-DVD for good.

I KNEW IT! You ARE from BD.com! The PS3 has barely made a 1 to 1 attach rate - in 10 months. Then all of a sudden - it is going to magically double this? And you believe this?

OK - what about the 500,000 HD DVD players that are going to be sold in the last 5 weeks of 2007? You seem to forget that the pool of PS3 buyers is shrinking. Those who wanted one - have one.

How pitiful. Here you are celebrating a victory on a week with two major new releases (Heros is arguably the hottest TV series release this year) which you still lost. Other than Transformer. Wonder how many hit titles you got this year. So what, We'll see thing back to noraml (66-34) in a couple weeks and then get another bump when transformer comes out but it's not going to change the YTD number.

I KNEW IT AGAIN! You ARE crying me a river about what was released. You want a tissue?

Guess I already answered your $199 player question. Yes, they will ignore it as they won't but HDM at $25 and they certain won't be able to rent HD-DVD at blockbuster. :D

Answered my $199 player question? No you didn't. You gave me some BS FUD that you think will happen. How bush!

So BBi Total Access and Netflix don't count? And we never see the rental numbers do we? How do you know BBI's plan is working? Of course . . . .your buddies at BD.com told you so right? How pathetic.

No..... The pricing for Blu Ray is insuriing it succeeds. Quality players cost a bit more. HD DVD has a long way to go on that one......

The only problem with kicking the s**t out of this post is......it's too easy! (Streets of Fire)

GREAT signature quantumred. Classic.

BD relying on the PS3 early on was a great idea.

BD relying on the PS3 in the longer term is a ridiculous idea.

It appears to have sold 1 million+ in the month between release and Christmas last year, and less than that in the 8 months since, despite a $100 price-cut.

The PS3 is $500 and the Wii is just over $300, with Sony making a loss on every unit sold, and Nintendo a profit. Judging by the public mood, the Wii would still sell more if they were the same price.

People appear to be forgetting that a good number of the first million PS3s sold were sold purely as BD players. If you think the attachment rates are low now, wait until we get another million sold, with none intended as BD players.

Steve W

I am hoping that HD DVD gets to $99 and fast. HD DVD sales will still be the same, the fire sale pricing will continue to hurt them and Blu Ray will continue its expanding dominance.

Seriiously....HDDVD pricing is overrated.

Custer: I hope there are thousands of Indians over the hill!

YAMAMOTO, "I'm afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled it with terrible resolve".

(HD DVD runs for the hills.......):D

Slim, it Toshiba's brilliant plan is as you describe it's not working.

1. They haven't sold millions of players in the US. Admittedly, the ones that they have sold, were sold at low margins. Obviously not making major friends of the CE retailers.

2. Blu-ray is NOT being starved to death. Blu-ray players are selling at profitable markups and the retailers are becoming partial toward Blu-ray (as you'd expect).

3. Blu-ray "stand alone" player sales have caught up with and then surpassed stand alone HD-DVD player sales. "Brand Name" CE manufacturers are going into Blu-ray design/production/sales big time. Toshiba is bottom feeding in China for 3rd tier manufacturers. I suspect non-desperate retailers will want to avoid these no-name models with their pitiful potential for profit. So dream on of massive HD-DVD sales this Christmas at unknown retail locations. Meanwhile massive quantities of Blu-ray players are actually being manufactured and actually will be available and actually sold at reasonable prices.

Yep, Toshiba's strategy is NOT brilliant; it's STUPID and counterproductive.

You really need to start looking things in more than a "I want BD to win" way. I explained where Toshiba's brilliance was, and it is as I said.

I KNEW IT! You ARE from BD.com! The PS3 has barely made a 1 to 1 attach rate - in 10 months. Then all of a sudden - it is going to magically double this? And you believe this?

OK - what about the 500,000 HD DVD players that are going to be sold in the last 5 weeks of 2007? You seem to forget that the pool of PS3 buyers is shrinking. Those who wanted one - have one.



I KNEW IT AGAIN! You ARE crying me a river about what was released. You want a tissue?



Answered my $199 player question? No you didn't. You gave me some BS FUD that you think will happen. How bush!

So BBi Total Access and Netflix don't count? And we never see the rental numbers do we? How do you know BBI's plan is working? Of course . . . .your buddies at BD.com told you so right? How pathetic.

I'll have to go out and have a life in a bit so this may be my last post for the day.

PS3 sales is going up thru the roof after the price drop and games coming for Q4 are actually very good and will attract more people to the PS3.

I KNEW IT. You're saying that new release does not matter? How naive?

Oh, haven't you heard? Netflix is going under and have you search BB online. They don't even have a category for HD-DVD while they do for Blu-ray.

GREAT signature quantumred. Classic.
Thanks. I'm glad someone noticed. But I never made it to tier 0, or any tier that I'm aware of ;)