Hi -

I need some help. I am in the budgeting/getting very excited/planning stages of finishing my basement. A main focus of that is installing a new projector. Now I've had HD for about 4 years, but i'm only familiar with RP CRT's and flat panel LCD's. I haven't a clue when it comes to projectors.

I'm looking for suggestions. My basic guidlines are these:

- The main seating area will be ~12' - 14' from the screen (I will be doing a DIY screen, I'll ask for advice on that later)
- The screen size will be ~100"
- My components will be: D* HD receiver, XBOX 360, HD-DVD player, and a Wii. Therefore, I would like to have at least (2) HDMI inputs, (1) VGA input, and (2) component inputs.
- I'm guessing the projector will be used 40% D*, 40% gaming, and 20% DVD watching.
- The only natural light issue is a block window (the 2' long by 1' high ones in basements) that will be roughly 4' to the left of the screen, on the same wall. I'd like to leave it alone, but would I need to worry about sunlight during the day?
- Another question on lights....How unwatchable is a projector with room lights on? They will be on a dimmer, but i'd like to be able to have the projector on with the lights on, when company is over, if we're just hanging out.

I'd like to get suggestions on a projector with these specs both in a 720p flavor and a 1080p flavor. I don't know if that puts me over the $3K forum limit or not. I don't really know what to plan for a budget for this....I'd like something that's nice, but dollar-conscious.

Thanks for reading, please post your opinions.

Thanks,
Matt

I think you might want to set a budget first.

You'll have to buy or DIY the following,
- Projector
- Screen
- Cables
- Mount

Set limit work backwards is my suggestion, you can get a 720p PJ as low as $600 that is actually pretty nice or you can spend $20,000 for a 1080p PJ. It's all relative.

As far as ambient light, that is the number one killer for a nice image from a projector. Sure you can have the lights on, the image will most probably look like crap though. I would look at a Tv if you want all the lights on. Just remember you are throwing a light at a screen and trying to see the reflection off of it... not an easy thing to do when you have other light sources shining on your screen.

If you are still interested in a PJ, I would set a price limit out here and than people can help more.

I think you might want to set a budget first.

Fair enough. For the projector alone, realistically, I let's set $2K as a budget for a 720p model. I don't know what 1080p ones go for.

I would say you are probably looking to be better off getting 720p PJ. Maybe some people can comment in the $1-2k range for you. If you decide to go the more inexpensive route sub $800 I would look at the Optoma HD70 and the Acer PH530 both 720p with HDMI inputs. However, if you have more money to spend, you might want to go a little more on the upside.

Anyone have suggestions in the $1-2k range?

Fair enough. For the projector alone, realistically, I let's set $2K as a budget for a 720p model. I don't know what 1080p ones go for.

Also, you wanting two HDMI and two component inputs might be a problem. Maybe a switchbox will work better. I have a composite, S-video, and 3 channel component switchbox. You probably won't want to run cables that many times up to the PJ if it's mounted.

Also some other good sites
http://www.projectorcentral.com
http://www.projectorreviews.com

Here is a great 720p projector.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2881678&CatId=1755

Welcome to the magical world of front projection!

DIY screen - you'll find all the info you need, and more, in the relevant forum here. Suggest you start with a basic blackout cloth (BO) screen, or a screen painted right on the wall, if feasible.

Projector - have a look at this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885398) on the Marantz VP4001, a very hot item at $1200.

How are you for sound? If you're looking for an AV receiver, I can heartily recommend the Marantz SR7001 (which I own) or SR8001 (even better). Look for threads in the audio section.

Happy shopping!

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Matt,

Lets add the Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 400 to the list. This is a very bright 720p projector to help with your lights on viewing, and currently has a great rebate which puts it at a very attractive price (can't state here but just check Projector People to get an idea of cost after rebate).

Epson has a 2 year warranty with instant replacement on their projectors, they cross ship the warranty replacement and you just stick the old projector in the box and send it to them, keeping the replacement unit...can't beat it. Epson projectors are known for being nearly problem free, but it is nice to have a good warranty.

Whatever you get, enjoy it!

Later,

Tony

The projectors mentioned so far (and others, such as the Mitsubishi HD1000U/HC1500) are all good, cheap entry-level projectors available for well under $1000.

However, the OP has indicated that he is willing to spend up to $2k. In the $1k-$2k bracket, there are a number of excellent deals going around at the moment, that will immediately take him a step (or a few steps) up from "entry-level". The Marantz VP4001 originally retailed for somewhere in the region of $4k, but can now be had for as little as $1200. Have a look at the thread I mentioned above and decide for yourself.

Other options are the Sharp XV-Z3000 and DT-500, also mentioned in that same thread. Some say the VP4001 is just a rebadged XV-Z3000, others say not quite, while the DT-500 is the same as the XV-Z3000 minus the second iris, producing similar or identical results under most conditions.

You could also look at the Sharp XV-Z12000MK2 (but it has a long throw and may not be bright enough in your room) and the Samsung SP-H710AE.

Good sources for reviews are projectorcentral.com (http://www.projectorcentral.com) and projectorreviews.com (http://www.projectorreviews.com), as already mentioned.

These are just a few suggestions. There are several other good options. You may, for instance, want to consider LCD in addition to DLP . . . The information is all out there, in forums such as these and sites like the other sites mentioned in this thread. The best advice I can give is to do as much research as possible.

Guys -

Thanks for all the responses so far, all of the input is valuable.


Projector - have a look at this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885398) on the Marantz VP4001, a very hot item at $1200.

How are you for sound? If you're looking for an AV receiver, I can heartily recommend the Marantz SR7001 (which I own) or SR8001 (even better). Look for threads in the audio section.

Wow, seems like quite a bargain at $1200 for that projector. Looks good, I'll definitely consider that.

As for sound. Well, the reasonable thing to do would be to move my existing audio setup (harmon/kardon receiver, Polk speakers, Hsu sub) downstairs, but what's the fun in that? For budgeting purposes, I went with a new h/k 7.1 receiver and middle of the road Polk speakers. The Marantz models you mention seem very nice, but I think are a little out of my price range. I'm thinking around $2,500 total for audio.


Also, you wanting two HDMI and two component inputs might be a problem. Maybe a switchbox will work better. I have a composite, S-video, and 3 channel component switchbox. You probably won't want to run cables that many times up to the PJ if it's mounted.

Good call, I like the switch box idea.

So a short list of the projectors mentioned so far are:

Optoma HD70, 1000 Lumens, 4000:1 contrast ratio
Marantz VP4001, 1200 Lumens, 6500:1 contrast ratio
Epson 400, 1500 Lumens, 5000:1 contrast ratio

I listed the lumens and contrast ratio, because I thought those two numbers would most likely affect the picture in light, am I correct? I'm guessing it's not as easy as the bigger the numbers, the better the picture you will have in natural/artificial light, right?

Thinking about it, I could pretty easily put the lights that will be around the main projector/screen/seating area on their own dimmer, and the lights around tha bar/games area on their own dimmer, so those could be on.

As you mention, redfox, I'm ok with spending a little more, if it's going to make a difference. A $4K projector for $1200 sounds great but i guess i just don't know enough to say that's the way to go.

Off to do more research..:)

The Marantz is in a different league than the others that have been mentioned so far.

The Marantz is in a different league than the others that have been mentioned so far.
Absolutely -- well, apart from the Sharps and the Samsung. As mentioned, it will take you beyond "entry-level". You may well be so satisfied with the picture quality, that you feel less of a need to upgrade to 1080p in a year or two. It's pretty bright as well, as you'll see from the user reviews in the aforementioned thread.

Guys -

I listed the lumens and contrast ratio, because I thought those two numbers would most likely affect the picture in light, am I correct? I'm guessing it's not as easy as the bigger the numbers, the better the picture you will have in natural/artificial light, right?

Thinking about it, I could pretty easily put the lights that will be around the main projector/screen/seating area on their own dimmer, and the lights around tha bar/games area on their own dimmer, so those could be on.



Hello everyone,

Hope you are all well.

Matt,

The only number you need to worry about when considering utilization of a projector in an ambient light situation is the light output in Lumens. Contrast is the difference between the brightest and the darkest areas of the image, and with the lights on the screen is much lighter which affects the darks and crushes your contrast. A projector with a lot of lumens and a good 1.3 gain or higher screen will help with use while the lights are on.

When designing lighting for the area utilize directional lights that do not directly illuminate your screen, any direct light will wash out the image. Make your walls a nice dark grey or black, if that is not feasible at least the projection wall around the screen and about 6 feet of side wall and ceiling should be as dark as possible.

Screen recommendations, look at Carada Brilliant White 1.3 gain, which has a pretty wide viewing cone for a screen with some gain, or a Da-Lite High Power 2.8 Gain if you go with a lower lumen projector. With the Da-Lite you would want to mount the projector as close to eye level as possible, it directs the light straight back to the projector with a very narrow viewing cone.

If your budget allows, take a look at the Epson Pro Cinema 810 which can be had in your price range after rebate. Projector People has them in stock, but you have to call to order one. It is a powerhouse when it comes to light output, 1600 Lumens, which would allow the more forgiving 1.3 gain screen. The Marantz is nice but I do not believe in your environment that it has enough muscle to be acceptable, you are going to want a bright projector in a game room/theater set up.

Hope this helps.

Later,

Tony

Lumens ratings are notoriously misleading. If you go to the review sites mentioned in this thread, you'll see that it's not unusual for projectors with lower ratings to provide a brighter image than some with higher ratings. You have to take into account that calibrating the projector (adjusting color, contrast and brightness) will drastically alter the actual light output. Another reason to read, read, read . . . absorb as much info as you can from professional reviews as well as user reports.

Lumens ratings are notoriously misleading. If you go to the review sites mentioned in this thread, you'll see that it's not unusual for projectors with lower ratings to provide a brighter image than some with higher ratings. You have to take into account that calibrating the projector (adjusting color, contrast and brightness) will drastically alter the actual light output. Another reason to read, read, read . . . absorb as much info as you can from professional reviews as well as user reports.

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Indeed Redfox is correct, and Epson is known to be very conservative with their lumen output numbers, usually exceeding them in professional reviews, other manufacturers are usually found to only get to about 80 percent of their claimed brightness when actually measured. Take a look at projectorreviews.com, Art usually will post the actual measured output of projectors in their various modes.

Yup, read read read...and you guessed it read all you can!

Later,

Tony

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Matt,

We have neglected to ask if you are ceiling or rear shelf mounting the projector? This could change our recommendations on projector due to throw range and screen size.

Later,

Tony

The Marantz is nice but I do not believe in your environment that it has enough muscle to be acceptable, you are going to want a bright projector in a game room/theater set up.

I don't want to sound like an evangelist for this one particular projector (mine hasn't even arrived yet!) but here are just a few comments on brightness from users in the Marantz thread:


I propped it up on its own box and cranked it up. I expected to be impressed (especially since I was using the X1 the last two weeks), but what I saw was absolute shock and awe. My basement is ~30' deep, the front 15' has recessed lighting on a dimmer, the back 15' has 4' fluorescents in a drop ceiling. My walls are light blue, ceiling is dropped and white. My screen is 106" of Sherwin Williams Luminous White eggshell painted on drywall. Far from ideal, and not exactly an ambient light killer. I describe all that to let you know that it is not the best HT environment even though there is total light control. My daughter was in the back area crafting, so the bright fluorescents were on (which reflects light everywhere) and I had the recessed lights on full to set up the PJ. I fed it an HD image from the OTA receiver using the serial port (no HDMI cable yet). When the bulb fired up I couldn't believe my eyes. The image this thing projected with all the lights on looked like a huge plasma TV! Granted, the default settings on the PJ are 'wide' iris (highest lumens) and 'dynamic' picture (brightest colors), but it was incredibly bright! Football season is here, and we regularly have a group over to watch the game. People are all over the room, some very close, others way in the back where the food inevitably is. The fluorescents are always on and the recessed are on too, but usually dimmed to keep the image from getting too washed out. This beast is gonna have jaws dropping this Sunday! Yes, blacks suffer in that environment, but as we all know it's perceived as darker when the image around it is brighter. In a word ... WOW.

Then I turned off all the lights to see what we had for movie viewing. After burning my retinas with the PJ in its out-of-the-box settings, I closed down the iris and changed the picture setting to 'theater'. The bulb went to eco, the fan dropped some speed (and noise) to low. The image was instantly transformed into deep, detailed blacks and vibrant colors. This is with no other tweaks, just OOTB settings. Totally embarrasses the 4805 (and I thought that was pretty good, especially in the dark). I can't tell you how the 4001 compares to others in it's class/price range, but I can tell anyone who is considering upgrading to this from a 4805-class PJ that it's an absolute steal at this price. Is there a better value out there? Dunno, haven't seen the competition, but I can certainly say that this is a GREAT value. If you are looking for some viewing flexibility (i.e. sports/TV, game console, movies) I don't know how this thing can be beat. Retina-burning bright when you need it, theater-dark when you want it.

I'm not a screen expert by any means, but you do not need much, if any, gain with this pj (at least not with a new bulb). I was watching Chronicles of Riddick (a pretty dark movie) last night, and some of the scenes were too bright. The invasion scenes were especially bright (the bomb flashes in particular). It actually hurt my eyes a bit, so I had to turn the pj down from eco/middle iris to eco/narrow iris. So, a 0 gain screen should work fine (if you have full or nearly full light control), and assuming your screen is going to be about 106". Unless you have a lot of ambient light, I would not go with anything above 1.5 gain

I'm telling you, you'll need sunglasses and 30 spf sunscreen on your face if you use a screen that has any decent gain with this projector. You'll come out of a two hour movie looking like you fell asleep at the tanning salon. As chexi1 wrote a few posts ago, he had to close down the iris to narrow when watching a certain movie because it was too bright. I know it says 1200 lumens and many other PJs claim similar stats (including my ol' X1 which was rated at 1100), but this thing is REALLY bright when you open 'er up all the way (and that opinion is based on viewing it on a matte white screen). Keep your viewing angle wide and your cost down ... get the matte white (well ... that's my opinion anyway FWIW).
GJ

I don't want to sound like an evangelist for this one particular projector (mine hasn't even arrived yet!) but here are just a few comments on brightness from users in the Marantz thread:

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Redfox,

That sounds outstanding. You are providing good information.

Later,

Tony

That sounds outstanding.

Sounds great, doesn't it? Apart from everything else, the easy adjustability of the light output (with the two irises) should make it very suited to his environment.

Tony and redfox, thanks again for all your input. Great info.

I will be ceiling-mounting the projector. I do have a rough sketch of what I think the basement will look like, just to see if youguys see any problems..I will post that..

I probably have some explaining to do, but here is my rough draft layout. I'll post more info later..

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/7961/basementwfurniture2lm4.jpg

Hi -

I need some help. I am in the budgeting/getting very excited/planning stages of finishing my basement. A main focus of that is installing a new projector. Now I've had HD for about 4 years, but i'm only familiar with RP CRT's and flat panel LCD's. I haven't a clue when it comes to projectors.

I'm looking for suggestions. My basic guidlines are these:

- The main seating area will be ~12' - 14' from the screen (I will be doing a DIY screen, I'll ask for advice on that later)
- The screen size will be ~100"



Rule of thumb is to sit 1.5x the width of your screen away from it, minimum. DLPs relax this a little, so does 1080p over 720p, although 1080p is out of your budget range. So, for a 16:9 screen, you're limiting yourself to 6' to 7' wide, which is about an 82 to 96" diagonal. Still a decent sized screen. Now, since this is your first time, I don't know that I'd go the DIY route personally; you can get a good permanent wall screen that will look awesome both from a picture quality standpoint and from a "what a tasteful looking room/cool looking theater" standpoint. But you will save around $450 going the DIY route.

- My components will be: D* HD receiver, XBOX 360, HD-DVD player, and a Wii. Therefore, I would like to have at least (2) HDMI inputs, (1) VGA input, and (2) component inputs.

2 HDMI and 2 Component together are a bit hard to find in your price range; look at going with a switch box, or possibly a surround sound system with switching (probably out of your budget, but you'll want one eventually).

- The only natural light issue is a block window (the 2' long by 1' high ones in basements) that will be roughly 4' to the left of the screen, on the same wall. I'd like to leave it alone, but would I need to worry about sunlight during the day?

Since it's on the same wall as the screen, it's going to be indirect ambient light that's the issue, plus the fact looking at the screen when sunlight is streaming in directly into your face is going to cause your pupils to close up and make it hard to see the picture. But a nice set of opaque curtains can solve that problem; you might not even need to go the "blackout curtain" route.

- Another question on lights....How unwatchable is a projector with room lights on? They will be on a dimmer, but i'd like to be able to have the projector on with the lights on, when company is over, if we're just hanging out.

That depends on the projector and screen; how much light the projector puts out determines how bright the image will be, and the screen is a big factor towards how well it handles the loss of contrast inherent in having ambient light around. I like to have my theater at "just bright enough to be able to eat dinner by, not bright enough to read by" levels, which are fairly low. If tolerating ambient light is an important part of this, you're probably going to want a gray screen instead of a high gain white one. White ones reflect a lot of ambient light; gray screens less - and gray screens enhance contrast. I have a gray screen because of that.

I'd like to get suggestions on a projector with these specs both in a 720p flavor and a 1080p flavor. I don't know if that puts me over the $3K forum limit or not. I don't really know what to plan for a budget for this....I'd like something that's nice, but dollar-conscious.

1080p projectors start at $2600-2800 right now, plus those prices are probably going to drop precipitously in the next year or so (new tech + more and more competition + economies of scale in producing the panels/DLP chips = sharp price curve). Which means you could get one for around $2700, and then watch it drop to around $1500 next year, and $1100 the year after that - could be hard to take. And of course, tying that much money up in the projector will limit how much you have to spend on stuff that can really enhance your theater - screen material, seating, masking, movie related decorations, sound system, etc.

720p projectors, on the other hand, are in the "right at $1000" sweet spot. In other words getting a good low end 720 projector right now will probably cost the same as a single year's worth of depreciation in the price of a 1080p projector. And the latest generation of 720p's look REALLY good; it's not night-and-day between them and the 1080p's. You could get one and have it for 2-3 years, THEN get a 1080p - you'll probably pay about the same together for both as you would for a 1080p now (and you'll have a "spare" - can set it up in another room, take it outside and have a "home made drive in" night projecting movies on the wall of your house, etc).

Find out if you suffer from Rainbow effect; if you don't, and if you can ceiling mount rather than "coffee table" mount your projector, look at DLPs. The have really nice blacks (blacks make the image "pop") with good shadow detail, and have a smaller visible picture structure making the image more filmlike. On the down side, other than Rainbow effect (if you're one of the unlucky few), they also tend to not have color reproduction as vibrant as LCD projectors do.

LCDs usually have great color, but a more visible pixel structure with a few exceptions (the Panasonics, which conversely have a "softer" image), and you have to sit a little farther back than with DLPs to avoid seeing it. But they also tend to have more placement flexibility with zoom and lens shift and whatnot that the DLPs at this price range don't have. They also don't have contrast ranges as good as the DLPs without resorting to "Dynamic Iris" tricks where a little shutter opens and closes really fast depending on whether it's a bright or dark scene - it works, but some people are more aware than others of the brightness changing and the sound of the iris clicking back and forth (not to mention it's a moving part - I'm not going to say "moving parts break", but given the choice between a PJ (or anything) with a moving part and one without, I'll take without any day of the week).

I suffer from Rainbow Effect, so I'm an LCD guy. I'd recommend looking at the Panasonic AX100u - high end of the price range at around $1200 after rebate, the Epson Powerlite 400, the BenQ W500, the Sanyo Z5, and the Sony VPL-AW15; there are others, but these are pretty representative and all sit between $1200 and $950. The Panny and Epson are "light cannons" which mean they can be used in brighter rooms, but contrast will suffer when you do that. The Panny has a cool lens gizmo that eliminates pixel structure, but it results in a "softer" image; some people prefer that though. The Z5 is probably the sharpest projector out there, but as a result, has a more visible pixel structure, so move back a foot or so, and it's definitely not as bright as the others except the Sony. And if they ever made a "Tech Support Horror Movie", it would star anything made by Sanyo. The Sony has the highest rated contrast range (with dynamic Iris tricks) and really good color, but is the dimmest of all of them, so it's not so great with ambient light (really nice picture in a dark room, though). And the W500 is sort of a great compromise between all - bright, but not as bright as the Panny and Epson, sharp, but not as sharp as the Sanyo and Sony. And it has some things going for it - cheapest bulbs of the bunch (about $100 cheaper per bulb), and a very highly thought of onboard video processor (HQV) that makes video sources look better, and it's only around $950 street without a rebate. Don't take my word for this stuff though - read the pro reviews and if you can, go see them in person somewhere; you might look for "projector meets" in your city on a forum here.

Again, I'm not a DLP guy, so I'm not the best one to talk to for that, but the Mitsubishi, Optoma and BenQ models are pretty well thought of.

Anyway, hopefully some of this info is useful; it's hard to condense 5 years of low-end projector enthusiasm into a single forum post. :D

My suggestion. Read this http://www.projectorcentral.com/cedia_2007.htm then wait a couple months and get a Sanyo Z2000. Or consider a Panasonic AX-100 if you can't wait.

And yet another comment on brightness from the Marantz thread:

Also, for those that want to know, both these PJs [Sharp Z3000 & Marantz VP4001] are bright!!!!!

I am using this PJ on a wall that is painted with three applications of Behr ultra white---My screen is a 12 foot (147" actually) diagonal at 16:9.. My room is anything but light controlled. I can watch this PJ on low lamp with the iris fully open at 5:30 PM when it is still light out and still have a watchable picture for sports and the like.

This thing really deserves to be called a light cannon!

Much Aloha,
bdbaba

I'll shut up now . . .

Tony and redfox, thanks again for all your input. Great info.

I will be ceiling-mounting the projector. I do have a rough sketch of what I think the basement will look like, just to see if youguys see any problems..I will post that..

Hello All,

Hope you are all well.

Matt,

You are quite welcome for the information. Ceiling mounting opens the door for any type of projector. Rear shelf mounting would limit your usable selections to units with optical lens shift and long throw lenses.

Later,

Tony

If I read your sketch correctly, it looks like you have a lot of flexibility in terms of projector-screen distance. This throws your choice of projectors wide open, from long to short throw.

If I read your sketch correctly, it looks like you have a lot of flexibility in terms of projector-screen distance. This throws your choice of projectors wide open, from long to short throw.

Yes, the location on the drawing is just an estimate, it can move closer or farther very easily. I'm not sure when my purchase timeframe will be..I'll just continue to do research, but I will probably revive this thread when I'm getting close to pulling the trigger.

Thanks again everyone.