I own a Hitachi 55HDX99. Unlike Pioneers and Panasonics, Hitachis are apparently known for weak black levels. In dark program material on my TV, the blacks and dark areas close to the bezel are not black like the bezel, and I understand only the new Kuros and Panasonics (to a lesser degree) are close to duplicating this.

However, when I look at individual on-screen items like sports uniforms, helmets, flags, tires, cartoon characters' hair etc. - these items are definitely black - close to bezel black. So obviously the TV is capable of producing a proper, deep black - why does it not do so with larger areas of the picture? I can make those areas darker, but you lose shadow detail. I read a review of a Hitachi HDT79 and previous generation Panasonic 600 series that said brightness settings lowered to produce deep black on both sets ultimately crushed black, so the reviewer settled on a setting (for both TVs) in which blacks tended toward dark grey. The sacrifice was worth it for shadow detail.

I'm guessing it's because these areas of the picture are not truly black in the source material - like a night sky lit up by stars, for instance. Perhaps this is a more technical question relating to how plasmas produce black overall?

I know this doesn't answer your question, but the only TV technology I've seen that can produce a near perfect black is direct view CRT.

I own a Hitachi 55HDX99. Unlike Pioneers and Panasonics, Hitachis are apparently known for weak black levels. In dark program material on my TV, the blacks and dark areas close to the bezel are not black like the bezel, and I understand only the new Kuros and Panasonics (to a lesser degree) are close to duplicating this.

However, when I look at individual on-screen items like sports uniforms, helmets, flags, tires, cartoon characters' hair etc. - these items are definitely black - close to bezel black. So obviously the TV is capable of producing a proper, deep black - why does it not do so with larger areas of the picture? I can make those areas darker, but you lose shadow detail. I read a review of a Hitachi HDT79 and previous generation Panasonic 600 series that said brightness settings lowered to produce deep black on both sets ultimately crushed black, so the reviewer settled on a setting (for both TVs) in which blacks tended toward dark grey. The sacrifice was worth it for shadow detail.

I'm guessing it's because these areas of the picture are not truly black in the source material - like a night sky lit up by stars, for instance. Perhaps this is a more technical question relating to how plasmas produce black overall?

I think the reason small black items look as dark as the bezel, but the entire screen or black bars don't is due to the surrounding background of the small black item. Brighter backgrounds and surrounding detail will cause the pupil to close allowing less light into your eye, making it seem as if the small black item is really dark. I notice it when viewing movies in 2.35:1. In bright scenes, the top and bottom black bars seem to blend in perfectly with the bezel, but on darker scenes, the bars are more visible. This is just my theory, don't know if it's true or not.

I would expect that the blacks seeming blacker with a dynamic picture is related to how the eye/brain process images. Check out some of these fun examples:

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/lum_adelson-plaid/index.html

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/lum_adelson_check_shadow/index.html

Wait until SED comes out. Blacks and shadow detail that you've never seen before.

Part of it might have to do with the fact that its just a small area and its harder to detect than a large area that is touching your black bezel. the small spots may not be as balck as you think.

Oh yes Audioboy...I'll be seeing a lot of blacks and shadow detail by the time SED comes out. I'll be long dead and it's dark in the coffin. Thanks for adding to the thread though chucklehead...:D

Quite a few digital displays have no problem with shadow detail as it is, black level has been the issue and progress is being made.
SED, like Plasma will have color limitations imposed by the use of Phosphor.

Wait until SED comes out. Blacks and shadow detail that you've never seen before.
not in our lifetime, at least for it to be affordable.

Part of it might have to do with the fact that its just a small area and its harder to detect than a large area that is touching your black bezel. the small spots may not be as balck as you think.

That's what I thought to begin with - especially with referee's uniforms in hockey against the white ice. But last night, while watching a baseball game, the camera panned around behind home plate. The plastic protector on the back of the catcher's mask (the thing that sits on the back of the head and keeps the mask on) passed into the lower left corner of the screen, right against the bezel - and it was very nearly a dead match. Not sure what the answer is - I'm guessing it has something to do with the automatic contrast enhancement that all plasmas have.

I think the reason small black items look as dark as the bezel, but the entire screen or black bars don't is due to the surrounding background of the small black item. Brighter backgrounds and surrounding detail will cause the pupil to close allowing less light into your eye, making it seem as if the small black item is really dark. I notice it when viewing movies in 2.35:1. In bright scenes, the top and bottom black bars seem to blend in perfectly with the bezel, but on darker scenes, the bars are more visible. This is just my theory, don't know if it's true or not.

I think you are dead on here.

This is a poor experiment to suggest in today's world, but try looking at the night sky immediately after stepping out of a bright room. On a clear night, it will be as black as anything you have ever seen. After you do that, go on a camping trip 3-4 hours away from the nearest city. After you let your eyes adjust, take a look at the sky. Not only is it not black, it will be a rather light shade of gray (even away from the Milky Way). It isn't that there is more light coming from the sky (there is almost certainly less), but when your eyes adjust to dark scenes, they can really pull a lot of light in.

That's what I thought to begin with - especially with referee's uniforms in hockey against the white ice. But last night, while watching a baseball game, the camera panned around behind home plate. The plastic protector on the back of the catcher's mask (the thing that sits on the back of the head and keeps the mask on) passed into the lower left corner of the screen, right against the bezel - and it was very nearly a dead match. Not sure what the answer is - I'm guessing it has something to do with the automatic contrast enhancement that all plasmas have.

No, it's about your mind's perception of black. Look into bias lighting. That will improve your set's perceived black levels.

Great thread and great input. thanks.

No, it's about your mind's perception of black. Look into bias lighting. That will improve your set's perceived black levels.

Yep - I'm going to get busy reading the bias lighting threads here.