User experiences on Velodyne SMS-1 [Text View]

donnyd

09-23-07, 08:35 AM

Thanks everyone,

You have no idea how these posts have helped. I'm going to print out this whole thread except this particular post. So here is the "rest of the story":

I had convinced my wife that we "needed" a new subwoofer to optimize our system. By negotiation we settled on a budget of between $700- $800.

By the way, here is a handy tip when looking at new gear. In our house, whenever I get something I want, I make sure that she gets something else out of the deal. (The home theater cost me an extra $3000 for an "upgrade" to the guest bathroom.) This new sub will cost me a new IPOD Nano for her.

Anyway, I looked at all the usual suspects and even considered the Hsu VTF-3 until she got a look at the optional turbo. I have finally settled on the Outlaw LFM-1 EX and bragged that I was coming in under budget at $650. Then I got the email Friday night for the promo combo of the EX/SMS-1 for $999. That raises the top end of my negotiated $800 budget another $200.

While it is part of the combo I can explain that the SMS-1 is not part of the sub. So I think I can make the case that we will have better performance and equally important flexibility in moving (make that "hiding" ) the subwoofer.

Guys, your comments will truly help me in making my case. Thanks so much for the feedback. However, I now have a suspicion that she will suggest that she "needs" an IPOD Touch instead of the Nano.

deneb

09-24-07, 04:42 PM

Tell her spending the extra 200 will make your 800 sub sound like the 3k units in the store (without EQ, even a 3k sub can sound bloated and boomy in a problem room, which is pretty much any untreated room). Seriously though, the SMS-1 will allow you to reduce room peaks at the listening position and will make any sub reach it's full potential, and the LFM-1 EX has a lot of potential. I had a 12db peak at 40hz in my room at my listening position, but once I tamed it with my SMS-1, it really cleaned up the bass big time. I'm of the opinion that anyone who's serious about clean, deep bass really needs an SMS-1 or other parametric EQ for thier sub.

After you get your SMS-1, it'll be time to start working on her to add bass traps to your room. That'll be tough, bass traps have low WAF. Might have to involve jewelry for her...

donnyd

09-24-07, 08:52 PM

Deneb,

Bass traps won't cut it unless I want to put a down payment on the Hope Diamond, which is a little out of my price range this year. It's tough enough that I have to "close" her on this deal before Outlaw shuts the door.

rydenfan

09-24-07, 09:15 PM

jpmst3

09-24-07, 09:51 PM

I just got my SMS-1 today, and it is an amazing product! To be able to watch the nulls in your room on a screen and then correct it, priceless. It is very easy to use, and for how much difference it can make it is easily the best $600 you can spend on your system.

Congrats and enjoy!:)

Now if they would only release the firmware update to correct the rolloff we will be all set!

deneb

09-25-07, 03:54 PM

I just got my SMS-1 today, and it is an amazing product! To be able to watch the nulls in your room on a screen and then correct it, priceless. It is very easy to use, and for how much difference it can make it is easily the best $600 you can spend on your system.

Boosting nulls with EQ (SMS-1 or other EQ) isn't a good idea, you'll run out of headroom on your sub amp very quickly. EQ is great for reducing peaks, but to reduce nulls, your options are experimenting with placement and phase on your sub as well as adding bass traps.

Bing

09-25-07, 09:55 PM

yes, please don't boost nulls. Maybe go +2db on a dip, and that's it.

Update on my setup. As I said before, I just got a PC-Ultra and I'm using an XLR connection from the SMS-1. After a few days of experimenting, I settled on the 15hz tune. For several reasons that i won't get into here, it wasn't giving me the performance I had hoped to get. So I decided to put my Servo-15 back into action, together with the SVS. SVS in front, Paradigm in the back. Without EQ, I was very fortunate to score a fairly flat FR with the Servo-15 in a serviceable location. Be careful though, one could go either way when it comes to multiple subs. In my case, one helped the other, and now I can drive each sub lower, as well as getting the highest number of "listenable seats" in my theater. Putting the subs to test through The Haunting (DTS), Day After Tomorrow, Flight of the Phoenix, PotC 2, and Master and Commander finally left a smile on my face.

The SMS-1 made the process easy. I sat near my Servo-15 and dialed in exactly how much gain as I watched the screen. I was able to quickly determine the FR of each of my ten seats so I know how many "bad seats" each location generated. Technofreaks will tell you it's not a perfect product, but i'd rather live with its flaws than not have it at all.

craig john

09-26-07, 09:21 AM

There was a giant thread on the SMS-1 that was archived. It had a tremendous amount of useful information about the device. Here it is for anyone who wants to learn more about the SMS-1:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=495331&page=1&pp=30&highlight=sms1+accuracy

I wish there was a way to revive this thread. I had a post on Page 41 of that thread about the progression I use to setup my SMS-1 with my receiver's auto-setup routine, YPAO. I'll quote it here in the hopes that the OP will find it beneficial:

I have a Yamaha RX-V4600 and here is the progression I use to incorporate both the SMS-1 and the YPAO:

First, I ignore self-EQ and Auto-EQ; I go straight to "Manual". I start with the SMS-1 at the factory default settings and in the "setup" mode. I then go back to the receiver and set the bass management, (all speakers "small" and LFE/subwoofer output to subwoofer.) Remember that the SMS-1 can only EQ the sub, so sending LF bass to all speakers will make the EQ much less effective. There are several other advantages to this setup, even if you have nearly full-range speakers. The key is the crossover point. My mains extend into the mid-40's, so I use an 80 Hz crossover. If your mains extend lower than that, use a lower crossover. Just remember that any bass produced by speakers other than the sub can't be EQ'd with the SMS-1. Also, the SMS-1 has a fixed 80 Hz high pass crossover, so it's output drops dramatically above this.

The next thing I do is set up the subwoofer. I set the volume control to approximately 10:00 (or whatever is reasonable on your sub). I turn the sub's internal crossover all the way up to it's highest point. If it can be disengaged, I do that. I'm using bass management in the receiver and it set's the crossover point. Using another one in the sub is not only redundant, it can be detrimental. I set the phase control to "zero" or "+".

The next thing I do is run the the YPAO, but I disengage the EQ's. I just have it set speaker levels and distance. If it selects the wrong crossover or speaker size setting, (which it always does), I change it. Now I'm ready to start EQ'ing because I'm using the correct size, level and distance settings that I will eventually be using when I'm finished. If you do the entire EQ first and then change something later by running the YPAO, you will affect the EQ.

BTW, the receiver should be in stereo mode at this point. The SMS-1 outputs a stereo signal and the receiver's bass management re-directs the the bass to the subwoofer output. Putting the system in a multichannel mode won't help, at least not at this point.

Before I start EQ-ing, I disconnect the mains. With the speakers disconnected, I'm only looking at the response of the subwoofer without any influence of the speakers. I also reset some of the factory defaults on Page 2. I defeat the low-pass crossover, (once again because I'm using the receiver's crossover and redundant crossovers can be detrimental.) I also reset the subsonic filter to it's lowest point (5 Hz with the new software) and the slope to 6 dB/octave. (When I'm finished I will reset these to 10 Hz and 24 dB/octave for safety purposes, but for EQ-ing, the levels are not high enough to be of concern.)

Now, after I've done all this, it's finally time to EQ the sub. This is the fun part! I use the manual mode and the "Setup" preset, as this will set the default EQ for all other presets. I look for the biggest peaks in my response. I ignore nulls as EQ can't do much to fix them anyway. (I used to use a lot of boost to augment the VLF response, but I've gotten away from that.) I move my sliders to points underneath the peaks and bring them down. I can also change the "Q" to widen or narrow the effect of each slider. As I reduce the peaks, I will also increase the overall volume to maintain the same average or total volume.

Once I've gotten the sub EQ'd to my liking, I reconnect the mains and evaluate the response. What usually happens is that the response changes most at and around the crossover. These response changes are caused by multiple speakers reproducing the same frequencies. At some frequencies they are out of phase with each other (causing cancelations). At other frequencies they are in phase with each other, (causing augmentation). Therefore, if the response with the stereo speakers engaged is not what I want, I will first try to improve it with the phase control on Page 2. I try not to change the EQ of the sub because I know it is correct by itself.

(You can also use the speaker distance control in the receiver to adjust phase. This control is actually a delay in the signal sent to the speakers which are "closer" than the furthest away speaker to bring them into time alignment. You can do this, but it's more complicated and I prefer to use the SMS-1 phase control and leave the speaker distances at the YPAO settings.)

Then I put the receiver in one of the multichannel modes, (PLIIx, etc.). This engages the rest of the speakers and shows how they interact with the sub. I usually don't change anything here, I'm just looking to ensure it doesn't induce any significant problems.

When I've finished with the SMS-1, I go back and re-check the levels of the speakers and sub manually with the receiver, (or with Avia and an SPL meter.) If the sub level is off, I don't reset it in the receiver, I use the volume control on the SMS-1. I never re-engage the YPAO's EQ's. I don't like what any of them do to the imaging so I don't use them.

Although my technique is a little different than what Velodyne recommends, I have used it with success. I have a reason for every choice I make and the end result works. I arrived at it through a lot of experimentation. I'm sure you will want to experiment with yours also. You'll find that all these controls in the receiver, the SMS-1 and the subwoofer interact and you'll want to set things appropriately for your system before you begin the EQ process.

Good luck.

Craig

Edit. I forgot one very important step. Before you begin EQ-ing, you need to move your sub into all the possible locations in your room to find the best baseline response. Most rooms only have a few possible locations from an aesthetics POV. Try the sub in each location, and even in a few variations within each location, i.e., move it a little left, right, front and back, turn it so the driver faces different directions, etc. This is really easy to do with the SMS-1 because the sweeps are so quick. Once you've found the best location, you can proceed with the rest of the EQ process.

I hope that helps anyone getting an SMS-1.

Craig

thrang

05-09-08, 09:58 PM

Maybe I missed it, and it's getting late... but what's the proper way to position the SMS mic? I have two subs, both on the left side of the room - one in front of the listening position, one rear of the listening position. Do you aim it upward, ala' an Audyessy mic? Toward the front of the room?

Thanks

RMK!

05-09-08, 10:10 PM

thrang

05-10-08, 07:20 AM

Vertical, ear height at the LP.

Thanks for the response - this is what I did, but I'm not a whole lot happy with the sound yet. I'll post my current graph and equipment information subsequent to this post.

Ironically, I came across this mic-position answer from 2005 post on the archived thread about the SMS-1 on AVS http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=495331&page=22&pp=30&highlight=sms1+accuracy (from a "Curt C" - Velodyne employee? Installer?)

Hi,
We normally point it straight ahead on a stand or table just in front of seated position.
Curt

Perhaps it doesn't matter a whole bunch - I find it odd the manual doesn't seem to indicate directionality of the mic at the listening position.

lefthandluke

05-10-08, 07:40 AM

i pointed mine straight ahead as well...great results

JimP

05-10-08, 07:47 AM

Althought the mic is considered omnidirectional. I aim mine towards the front at about an 45 degree angle from the ceiling.

Just a thought, while the SMS-1 is cycling through the frequencies, change the angle of the mic and see if there's any difference between straight up, 45 degrees and 90 degrees.

thrang

05-10-08, 08:33 AM

So here's my manual EQ - I don't have a shot of Page 2 at the moment, but will post shortly...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=109988&stc=1&d=1210426127

My Setup:
Onkyo 905/EarthQuake Cinenova Grande 7 - all speakers set to 80Hz - Mythos ST L/R - not using LFE inputs on ST's...Two sus connected to the SMS - JL Fathom 113, internally calibrated, reference volume level - crossover bypassed. DefTech Supercube 1, about 3'oclock on the volume knob, crossovers defeated. 905 sub trim at -2.5. About 75 db RatShack SPL prior

Room treatments. Not a lot - wall to wall carpeting, homemade triangular rear corner bass traps (4 foot stack of mineral wool board), two rear 2x4 by two inch mineral wool (note, in the room pictures, the 2x4 panels are behind the front speakers, but they were moved to the rear walls beneath each back surround prior to using the SMS-1)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=109984&d=1210425952
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=109985&d=1210425952
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=109986&d=1210425952
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=109987&d=1210425978

Crossover OFF in SMS. I tweaked PHASE and POLARITY settings to get the graph as smooth as possible, then EQ'd as seen here. Tried to cut more than gain, as per my reading of the manuals and on AVS

After EQ'ing with the SMS, I check the internal test tone of the 905 for the LFE, and it remained around 75 db

But on listening tests, the low end sounds a bit weak and at times coarse/uneven (listened to WOTW/DTS and I Am Legend, DTS MA

I have yet to re-run Audyssey (I loathe that step...) Is this critical? Should I use the Fathom 113 ARO internal calibration (as I have), or should it be bypassed?

I'll get screen two posted in a little while.

Thanks

Steve.

05-10-08, 08:59 PM

I have a SMS-1 in a 2 channel system and love it. For the time being I am driving my mains full range and use the SMS's low pass crossover to my sub's LFE input. I have experimented with the SMS's high pass crossover and it's first order slope works well with several speakers that I've tried in the past. I will probably go back to the high pass crossover to the mains as it's better at higher volumes or when playing a DVD with a lot of bass.

My room had some nasty peaks, the worst being a 8 dB hump at 40 Hz that the SMS did a great job at taming. As great as the SMS is I can honestly say that the number one improvement in my system's bass and overall clarity was when I put a Auralex SubDude under the sub. The difference that this $50 tweek made was incredible, so much so that I had to re-EQ the sub. The peaks were about 3dB lower just from decoupling the sub from the room.

While I can recommend the SMS highly, I think the SubDude has a much higher performance/price ratio and should be used FIRST. My room was an acoustical nightmare with hardwood floors, 9' ceilings, 6' windows, and a tin ceiling. Before adding the SubDude everthing vibrated, and being a 120 year old house there wasn't much I could do. The combination of the SMS and SubDude was staggering, the rattles were gone and the bass was deep and tight. It's amazing how great a system can sound when room resonances don't impart their own nasty signature.

JimP

05-11-08, 12:36 AM

thrang

05-11-08, 05:53 AM

thrang

05-11-08, 05:59 AM

thrang,

My guess is that your system doesn't respond well to having 1 equalizer adjusting 2 subs.

If you've got the time, unplug one of the subs and do a screen capture of the resulting frequency response plot. Then do it again with the other sub unplugged and the first one plugged in.

Also....very important...be sure that you peak out the crossover region by adjusting the subwoofer distance adjustment in your preamp/receiver. Your 75 hz boost indicates somethings going on there.

I will try this and post some screen shots - are thinking the boosts in the 75 and 90 ranges are what may be causing my feeling that the LFE is coarse or uneven.

I'll also be ordering and installing four 2x4 by 4 inch ATS bass absorbers and probably two RFZ Real Trap panels for the first reflect points on the ceiling as well. I also may try the trick of putting rolled fiberglass insulation in the front corners, providing I can sew a slip cover with that ATS/GOM acoustically transparent material to blend it in to the room....

Thanks

JimP

05-11-08, 07:05 AM

Funny, I was looking at that same product just a few days ago. I'll give it a shot - thanks.

If you've got a carpet over concrete slab foundation, there wouldn't be any benefit to a subdude or similar product.

If your subwoofer is large enough to transfer energy through a concrete slab foundation......then the next home theater get to gether is at your place. We'll all want to see/feel it. :D

You've got a nice looking room. The problem I have at my place is in a non dedicated home theater with lots of windows, you really can't put enough panals in place to do it enough good to justify doing it. Its very questionable if the chase is worth the catch.

I do think that once you get your sub/equalization thing worked out, you're going to have more than enough bass. Then it'll be a question on how to refine it.

thrang

05-11-08, 07:07 AM

If you've got a carpet over concrete slab foundation, there wouldn't be any benefit to a subdude or similar product.

If your subwoofer is large enough to transfer energy through a concrete slab foundation......then the next home theater get to gether is at your place. We'll all want to see/feel it. :D

I wish...Actually, I have (as the pictures indicate) wall to wall carpeting, but it is over standard floor joists/plywood with insulation between the joists. So the SubDude would still be of benefit, I'm presuming (the Fathom is a fairly heavy mother - around 135 pounds...)

RMK!

05-12-08, 09:18 AM

mpedris

05-12-08, 09:26 AM

I've read that the SMS best serves multiples subs. Is it worth getting one for a single sub system. I have an old Paradigm PW-2200. Quite boomy. I'm hoping the SMS can help me clear the boom.

Any thoughts?

thrang

05-12-08, 09:27 AM

Just a warning, I purchased a pair of Subdudes for my F113 pair. The F113 is heavily weighted to the back of the unit and the F113's compressed the Subdude foam base so that they sat at an angle listing to stern by 15-20 degrees. I tried shimming the Subdudes with additional foam wedges in the back in order to have the F113's level. Ended up scrapping them.

thanks for this info - I did end up ordering the auralex gramma, so hopefully the larger base will give me better weight distribution

Havent had a chance to do any further experimenting with the sms-1 given mothers day yesterday, but today and tomorrow should yield more results.

JimP

05-12-08, 10:20 AM

craig john

05-12-08, 06:57 PM

I have yet to re-run Audyssey (I loathe that step...) Is this critical? Should I use the Fathom 113 ARO internal calibration (as I have), or should it be bypassed?
Audyssey, SMS-1 and ARO. Hmmmmm...... so many EQ's... so little time. :D

I have the same "issue" as you. I have an Onkyo 885 pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT, (what version of Audyssey do you have?), an SMS-1 and dual JL F112's with ARO. After much experimentation I have decided to remove the SMS-1, turn off the ARO's and just let Audyssey MultEQ XT be the sole EQ for my system.

My logic:
1). Daisy-chaining multiple EQ's seems like a bad idea.
2). The SMS-1 can only EQ in the frequency domain and it can only EQ one listening position, (and it can make other LP's worse.)
3). ARO is only one band of EQ if I use the Master/Slave arrangement, or 2 bands, 1 for each F112, if I use the peer to peer arrangement.

Audyssey EQ's both subs together, as if they were one. It EQ's in the frequency *and* the time domains. It EQ's for multiple listening positions and it has higher resolution than the SMS-1. It doesn't have the SMS-1's OSD and there is no way to manually "tweak" the response. However, to my ears, Audyssey does a better job, especially at reducing the ringing of the bass in my room. The bass is tighter, cleaner and it has more "definition" than with the SMS-1, (which was a significant improvement over no EQ at all.)

My suggestion is to run Audyssey with the SMS-1 and ARO off. Then compare the sound of the system EQ'd by the SMS-1 and EQ'd by Audyssey MultEQ XT. I would be interested to see which you prefer. (I am assuming you have Audyssey MultEQ XT. Some of the older versions of Audyssey did not have the bass EQ capability of the MultEQ XT version. If you have an older version of Audyssey, then your SMS-1 will be the preferred method of EQ'ing the bass.)

Craig

thrang

05-12-08, 07:15 PM

Audyssey, SMS-1 and ARO. Hmmmmm...... so many EQ's... so little time. :D

I have the same "issue" as you. I have an Onkyo 885 pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT, (what version of Audyssey do you have?), an SMS-1 and dual JL F112's with ARO. After much experimentation I have decided to remove the SMS-1, turn off the ARO's and just let Audyssey MultEQ XT be the sole EQ for my system.

My logic:
1). Daisy-chaining multiple EQ's seems like a bad idea.
2). The SMS-1 can only EQ in the frequency domain and it can only EQ one listening position, (and it can make other LP's worse.)
3). ARO is only one band of EQ if I use the Master/Slave arrangement, or 2 bands, 1 for each F112, if I use the peer to peer arrangement.

Audyssey EQ's both subs together, as if they were one. It EQ's in the frequency *and* the time domains. It EQ's for multiple listening positions and it has higher resolution than the SMS-1. It doesn't have the SMS-1's OSD and there is no way to manually "tweak" the response. However, to my ears, Audyssey does a better job, especially at reducing the ringing of the bass in my room. The bass is tighter, cleaner and it has more "definition" than with the SMS-1, (which was a significant improvement over no EQ at all.)

My suggestion is to run Audyssey with the SMS-1 and ARO off. Then compare the sound of the system EQ'd by the SMS-1 and EQ'd by Audyssey MultEQ XT. I would be interested to see which you prefer. (I am assuming you have Audyssey MultEQ XT. Some of the older versions of Audyssey did not have the bass EQ capability of the MultEQ XT version. If you have an older version of Audyssey, then your SMS-1 will be the preferred method of EQ'ing the bass.)

Craig

Well hell, I just BOUGHT the SMS a week ago, so I can't give up yet....:)

Actually, part of my pursuit here was Audyssey, for me, has not been such a stellar improvement, and I've spent a lot of time in the Audyssey forum here and been very careful with the measurement process (and have done so numerous times) The 905 does the MultEQ XT as well. For me, I'm finding the sound thin and low/low-mid frequencies diminished (from a purely subjective POV - no room analysis yet, since REW got me a bit befuddled when I tried it for a few hours...)

So in went a Fathom, and things got mostly better but a bit worse, in that there was too much bass in certain regions - which I presume was my room modes in the 30 to 40 hz region)

So I'll play a little bit more tomorrow, but I'm going to be getting some additional room treatment panels (either RealTraps or homebuilt 2 x 4 by 4" 705 board), and possibly some Real Trap RFZ panels for the ceiling, to see if I can tame the room a bit, though from what I'm reading, in the frequencies I'm talking about, it's hard to do...

RMK!

05-12-08, 09:56 PM

craig john

05-13-08, 05:47 AM

I have an Integra 9.8, quad Fathoms and an SMS-1. I'm still experimenting but my preference thus far is ARO for each Fathom pair in Master/Slave config, then use the SMS-1 to even out the summed quad sub output for rest of the low frequencies. The Audyssey EQ seems to overly soften my systems sound with or without the additional EQ's. The room has extensive treatments (bass traps and absorbers) so I'm guessing that is the reason Audyssey doesn't work well for me.
Actually, Chris K, the Chief Technical Officer of Audyssey has commented that Audyssey can make an untreated room sound better, but it can work wonders in a well treated room. My room is pretty extensively treated with bass traps in the corners and absorbers at the first reflection points on all surfaces.

Anyway, you should certainly use whatever sounds best to you. :)

Craig

thrang

05-16-08, 11:07 AM

Ok, here are my updated calibration captures

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110586&stc=1&d=1210953378

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110585&stc=1&d=1210953378

I changed the room around a bit - the Fathom 113 is on the left wall, about a 1/4 of the way from the front left corner. The DefTech Supercube 1 in on the rear wall, about 1/5 away from the right corner.

The speakers are crossed at 50 - after trial and error with crossover and the SMS phase controls, this seemed to provide the smoothest reading at any xover point.

The process was the calibrate the Fathom first with it's internal ARO feature. I then used an spl meter and the Onkyo 905 trim control to generally balance the two subs at about 75 db. I then did a manual EQ in the SMS (NO EQ on the 905, xover set to 80, which was the smoothest pre-Audyssey) to get a flat a result as possible. i then did an 8 point Audyssey calibration with the SMS in the loop. I then checked the response curve back in the SMS, determined the 50 hz xover was the best point with Audyssey engaged, and trimmed as you see here.

Things seem generally much improved, but I still think Audyssey is too bright for my tastes. I'm not sure what to do about the dip in the 90 hz region, or if I should be overly concerned...

Feedback would be appreciated.

craig john

05-16-08, 05:19 PM

Ok, here are my updated calibration captures

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110586&stc=1&d=1210953378

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110585&stc=1&d=1210953378

That's exceptionally flat response. However, those are some big cuts, ~12 dB at 20 to 30 Hz, and again at 63 Hz. Cutting this much affects the initial soundwave significantly. You take away the initial impact of the sound.

Take some readings at the other points you used for the Audyssey calibration. It would be interesting to see what the combination of Audyssey, the SMS-1 and ARO do at other points than just the primary LP. In addition, what did the response look like before you ran Audyssey? Was it this flat without Audyssey, or did Audyssey improve the respose significantly.

I changed the room around a bit - the Fathom 113 is on the left wall, about a 1/4 of the way from the front left corner. The DefTech Supercube 1 in on the rear wall, about 1/5 away from the right corner.

The speakers are crossed at 50 - after trial and error with crossover and the SMS phase controls, this seemed to provide the smoothest reading at any xover point.
It doesn't look like you used the SMS-1 phase control. They're set to "0". Did you try different settings and decide that "0" was best?

The process was the calibrate the Fathom first with it's internal ARO feature. I then used an spl meter and the Onkyo 905 trim control to generally balance the two subs at about 75 db. I then did a manual EQ in the SMS (NO EQ on the 905, xover set to 80, which was the smoothest pre-Audyssey) to get a flat a result as possible. i then did an 8 point Audyssey calibration with the SMS in the loop. I then checked the response curve back in the SMS, determined the 50 hz xover was the best point with Audyssey engaged, and trimmed as you see here.

Things seem generally much improved, but I still think Audyssey is too bright for my tastes.
I suggest you try Audyssey without the other two EQ's. Audyssey actually has a slight high frequency roll-off in their target curve. If it doesn't sound right to you, I suspect it's something in the setup of three different and independant EQ's. It may be that the bass is so muted by those big cuts that the high frequencies sound exaggerated by comparison.

I'm not sure what to do about the dip in the 90 hz region, or if I should be overly concerned...
There isn't much you can do about it. If your crossover is set at 50 Hz, the speakers are outputting most of the signal at 90 Hz. The sub signal is will be down almost 12 dB at 90 Hz, so the SMS-1 will have very little effect. Audyssey will affect it, but where it is now is probably as much impact as Audyssey will have on it.

Craig

thrang

05-16-08, 06:31 PM

That's exceptionally flat response. However, those are some big cuts, ~12 dB at 20 to 30 Hz, and again at 63 Hz. Cutting this much affects the initial soundwave significantly. You take away the initial impact of the sound.

Take some readings at the other points you used for the Audyssey calibration. It would be interesting to see what the combination of Audyssey, the SMS-1 and ARO do at other points than just the primary LP. In addition, what did the response look like before you ran Audyssey? Was it this flat without Audyssey, or did Audyssey improve the respose significantly.

It doesn't look like you used the SMS-1 phase control. They're set to "0". Did you try different settings and decide that "0" was best?

I suggest you try Audyssey without the other two EQ's. Audyssey actually has a slight high frequency roll-off in their target curve. If it doesn't sound right to you, I suspect it's something in the setup of three different and independant EQ's. It may be that the bass is so muted by those big cuts that the high frequencies sound exaggerated by comparison.

There isn't much you can do about it. If your crossover is set at 50 Hz, the speakers are outputting most of the signal at 90 Hz. The sub signal is will be down almost 12 dB at 90 Hz, so the SMS-1 will have very little effect. Audyssey will affect it, but where it is now is probably as much impact as Audyssey will have on it.

Craig

Thanks for the detailed feedback - I'm in the process of working things with an 80 hz crossover, and will post updated screen shots later

Is there a rule of thumb in terms of maximum db cut? My understanding is that you don't want to boost much more than 1 db to avoid clipping at higher volumes, but your comments about the low cuts seems to indicate perhaps the usefulness of the SMS even when cutting peaks is less than anticpated

In terms of flatness, I got it fairly flat with ARO/SMS - Audyssey actually increased the variations of the response curve, partly because it reset the fronts as full. So I tweaked the SMS as posted here. Foolishly, I did not take a shot of the pre-Audyssey SMS response curve.

And yes, in this go round, I played with every phase step, and this was the best. I'm in the midst of redoing at 80 hz, and it's looking like the phase will be set more like 30 or 45 - + polarity.

I'll be back...

Of course, the more you do this, the more you appreciate the phrase, "ignorance is bliss..." :)

thrang

05-16-08, 07:19 PM

Ok, some more tweaking...ARO and Audyssey still engaged...xover now set to 80

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110607&stc=1&d=1210983348

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110608&stc=1&d=1210983348

Some dip around 63, but I don't think as severe as the prior dip at 80, and bit of a tradeoff at the very bottom end, but not as severe cuts as before.

Now to actually listen to it for a change....:rolleyes:

PBonn

05-16-08, 07:22 PM

JimP

05-17-08, 07:31 AM

thrang

05-17-08, 08:44 AM

Thrang,

Is the distance from your front sub and rear sub to your primary listing position the same? If not, what are the distances. Also, does the supercube have any kind of phase (not polarity) control and does it have an equalizer?

One other thing that I see on your last screen capture is that it looks like you're running your subs flat relative to your other speakers. Most run their subs anywhere from 3 to 5dbs hotter than the other speakers. I think Velodyne even recommends running the sub a little hot in the SMS-1 manual.

The distances are close, but not exact - approximately 10 feet from the Fathom to the primary listening position, about 9 feet from the Supercube to the primary listening position.

The Supercube does have a variable phase control, and I did play with this relative to the Fathom and the SMS being 0 Phase, but this only introduce greater fluctuation in the curve (too high in the 40-60, too low in the 80 to 100 regions). The Supercube does not have it's own equalizer.

I thought the idea was to get a fairly linear response in the SMS EQ setting/graph, and then use some trim adjustments (in the presets, for example, or, with less flexibility, overall in the processor SUB setting) to adjust to taste/material. Are you saying you would expect the primary EQ/graph to be flat BUT about 3-5db hotter from the lowest frequency until the crossover? Perhaps I'm reading the documentation wrong, but I thought after adjusting the master and SMS volumes to be equal left and right, you adjust the phase, polarity, and EQ to flatten the response as much as is reasonable.

Thanks

JimP

05-17-08, 08:56 AM

thrang

05-17-08, 09:36 AM

You need to adjust the phase control on the supercube to peak out the crossover region and then correct any uneveness with the equalizer.

The logic behind peaking out the crossover region is that you are compounding the signal at its peak, otherwise they're out of phase causing cancellations(which may very well explain what you're hearing).

Well, with 80 as my current xover, I'm not showing a dip in that region. Are you saying I should actually want a small peak in the 80 hz region?

Also, are you saying the Fathom phase should not be adjusted? Just to be clear, both the Fathom and the Supercube are running off a single SMS.

I guess my confusion lies in having two subs and the SMS, each with their own phase adjustments. Sequentially, what is the proper way to approach getting everything dialed in correctly? Should I get the two subs in phase with each other, and then use the SMS to get that pair in phase with the mains?

And to my earlier question - should the EQ/graph be as flat as reasonably possible from 15 to the crossover, or should the 3-5 db bump be factored into to curve itself, from low to crossover?

Thanks

Thanks

JimP

05-17-08, 10:34 AM

thrang,

Please check your PM(personal message).

thrang

05-18-08, 10:34 AM

RMK!

05-18-08, 10:51 AM

As a side note, has anyone noticed that selecting "No" when prompted to save changes still saves the changes? I was playing with some "what if" settings, and decided I didn't like the results, so I selected "exit", then "no", and I was returned to the main screen (the unit did not restart when you do choose to save your changes). Yet when I went back into the settings, the "unsaved" changes were still in effect.

Very odd, unless I'm doing something wrong here...

My guess is (I haven''t actually tried it) this is a feature, not a bug:). I'm thinking that powering down will loose the changes unless you do a save. That would allow you make changes and then play some material and see if you like the changes. You could then return to the EQ screen and save or tweak as necessary.

thrang

05-18-08, 01:12 PM

My guess is (I haven''t actually tried it) this is a feature, not a bug:). I'm thinking that powering down will loose the changes unless you do a save. That would allow you make changes and then play some material and see if you like the changes. You could then return to the EQ screen and save or tweak as necessary.

Well, what's the point of having a Save option that offers Yes, No, or Cancel??? One would expect selecting no would throw away your changes....:confused:

JimP

05-18-08, 03:52 PM

thrang,

Any progress with the phase settings?

The two women in my car when you called were impressed. Thanks for allowing me to talk over their heads. lol

thrang

05-18-08, 04:27 PM

thrang,

Any progress with the phase settings?

The two women in my car when you called were impressed. Thanks for allowing me to talk over their heads. lol

Two? Does that provide a similar beneficial response like two subs do?:D

I've spent some time working with the phase issue, but need more time to tweak. But so far, it appears all other phase positions other than zero on the Supercube only make the overall response more uneven, without any appreciable change in the 80 hz region. Two things:

- my last graph appears fairly flat at 80 through 100 and beyond (80 being the crossover) is it the dip at 63 you think should be better?

- One additional piece to this is my main towers are powered, and while not hooked up as sub (they do have LFE inputs, unused right now) there is an adjustable low frequency volume knob which I will adjust to see how this effects the response around the crossover. The speakers are DefTech Mythos ST's. Currently, they are set around the halfway point

virtual-human

05-19-08, 04:21 PM

I owned an Onkyo 805 for a week and played with the Audyssey and it set the sub at 20 feet (really 7 ft away), and the fronts and surrounds at 7 ft. This confirmed my suspicion that the circuitry in the SMS delays the audio signal.
I have bipolar speakers, and the changes the Audyssey made were a definite reduction in quality...the sound seemed like it was coming out of a box with it engaged.
I returned the Onkyo (due to other issues), but learned from my experience and have adjusted the LFE delay (when possible) to compensate for the delay (at least in my system) using the SMS.

I use two SMSs and two ICBMs feeding two SVS Ultra 13s (front/stereo, LFE both and equalized) and two SVS CS Ultras (rear/stereo unequalized).

Paul

Well after placing my order for an SMS-1 earlier today I called Velo product support to ask how many feet they recommend compensating to account for the delay. After being told that my question was "silly", that nobody else had called to ask in the three years they'd been selling it, and that the gentleman I was speaking to had never thought about it because he only thinks about things that matter [no I am not making this up], I was informed that the SMS-1 introduces a 2.5 millisecond delay.

Can anybody here convert that to a distance for the purpose of settings in the AVR or alternatively the degrees of phase to add?

As an aside, I pointed out that it would be very easy to test before and after adjusting by looking at a graph at the crossover, but instead he suggested that I do a blind test with a friend adjusting the phase and suggested that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Thanks, Velo support. :rolleyes:

Kal Rubinson

05-19-08, 04:53 PM

About 2.5'

virtual-human

05-19-08, 04:58 PM

Thanks, yeah... I was just on my way back to post that I calculated it myself once I took a second and realized how simple it was. :o I got about 2.8 using a slightly higher speed of sound than 1k.

Kal Rubinson

05-19-08, 05:01 PM

Thanks, yeah... I was just on my way back to post that I calculated it myself once I took a second and realized how simple it was. :o I got about 2.8 using a slightly higher speed of sound than 1k.

Yeah but most AVRs are limited to full or half feet.

virtual-human

05-19-08, 05:08 PM

Yup, mine's limited to full feet. I was mostly just including my calculation to show that I had actually gone and done the math. :D

Thank you again for your response; it was appreciated!

thrang

05-19-08, 06:24 PM

Yup, mine's limited to full feet. I was mostly just including my calculation to show that I had actually gone and done the math. :D

Thank you again for your response; it was appreciated!

So you are reducing the Audyssey/AVR Sub distance by about 2.5 feet to compensate for the SMS delay? (a 12.5 foot reading would become 10 feet)? Am I understanding correctly?

Thanks

virtual-human

05-19-08, 06:41 PM

Nope; you'd be adding that onto the actual distance of the sub, since it is a delay in the sound reaching your ears, just as a sound's source being further away from you would be.

thrang

05-19-08, 06:50 PM

Nope; you'd be adding that onto the actual distance of the sub, since it is a delay in the sound reaching your ears, just as a sound's source being further away from you would be.

Er...yeah, that's what I meant to say :) (slinking away, getting a 50-50 guess wrong...)

craig john

05-19-08, 06:53 PM

Audyssey already has done the math. If the sub's distance is set higher than it's actual distance, it has already accounted for the delay in the SMS-1. Don't change it.

Craig

PBonn

05-19-08, 06:57 PM

Thrang,
I believe you would add to the sub distance to compensate. The other speakers are the ones actually delayed to then equal the sub.
Paul
(I didn't refress before posting this, and missed the other responses)

thrang

05-19-08, 07:12 PM

Audyssey already has done the math. If the sub's distance is set higher than it's actual distance, it has already accounted for the delay in the SMS-1. Don't change it.

Craig

So even if Audyssey is showing the actual/real sub distance (which my setup does - it's not "off" like some others have commented), still leave it alone?

virtual-human

05-19-08, 07:17 PM

If you took a tape measure and manually input the sub's distance, then you could add to it to compensate. If you used Audyssey to detect the distance since you have hooked up the SMS-1, then you don't need to change anything.

thrang

06-29-08, 06:21 AM

So since I've been here last, I've changed out my speaker setup and updated my sub arrangement, and am back to tweaking the SMS.

My new setup are all RBH speakers - T-1/SE-R as LCR, 66-SE dipoles as side surrounds, and 61-SE direct radiating as rear surrounds. Subs are now two Fathom 113's, located at the front of the room - they are configured in a master/slave. Crossover is 70

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114174&stc=1&d=1214738102

Process was to ARO the 113's first, then run Audyssey, then set the SMS. Here's the current SMS response - phase is flat on the 113's, 30 on the SMS

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114175&stc=1&d=1214738102

Things sound fairly good, though a tad weak in the upper bass region - I'm thinking of trying craigjohn's early suggestions of eliminating ARO and the SMS and just try Audyssey alone - alternatively, I may try ARO the subs separately, running the SMS first, and then running Audyssey to compensate for what's left...

Should I be overly concerned about the ugliness around 160 - this is way out of the realm of the subs...

JimP

06-29-08, 06:50 AM

thrang

06-29-08, 06:56 AM

Not trying to oversimplify, but you appear to be running your subs flat relative to the mains. I've found that going 3-5dbs hot on the subs is better. In the SMS-1 manual, I believe it says the same.

As for your question about eliminating multiple equalizers, I have to agree with that. I've tried so many different equalizers in the past in various combinations, that I think that have the least or non will often be better.

You know, this sounds like sacrilege - here we are in the home of the SMS-1 on AVS, and we're discussing it's termination....:eek:

But it sounds like you've been there, done that...- so run the 113's as independent masters and ARO each, as the first step...

mvp2005fan

12-08-09, 10:46 PM

All:

This is an old thread, but I was wondering of those that posted here (or if you own the SMS-1)--are you still using/happy with the SMS-1 after all this time? I just bought one at the super low prices they are going for now, but have 2 weeks to mess with it and return if it doesn't work out. I was just wondering if folks still feel the sonic benefits are still worth it over time (or did you replace it with something else).

Thanks!

jpmst3

12-08-09, 11:51 PM

I continue to use mine. Ironically, I was just messing with it a little earlier this evening. I set it up a couple of years ago and have not messed with it since then.

Quite frankly, I wish there was another device that combined the easy GUI interface, stackable filters and discrete multiple sub capabilities. If there was I would buy it.

I understand the SVS/Audessey unit handles most of this, but I was under the impression that you could not boost much if any on it. Can anyone verify if that is true?

jpmst3

12-08-09, 11:53 PM

Even more irony, I was just looking at the RBH lines of speakers, more specifically the LCR model pictured in the above setup in this thread. Whacky.

JimP

12-09-09, 03:11 AM

mvp2005fan,

I was one of the earliest ones to purchase the SMS-1 and only a few months ago built a house curve that I totally like. I do use REW to calculate my filters and modify the max corrections.

As for the SVS equalizer, I purchase one of those and wound up returning it. On its original software, it didn't find a critical correction that REW located. Nor does it provide for any kind of dynamic EQing or house curves. In my opion, if you don't play your system at reference levels all the time and don't have the Audyssey dynamic equalization, then you have to have a house curve to match human hearing sensitivity at your normal listening levels. As far as I know, the SMS-1 is the only equalizer that lets you manually build your house curve.

Fact of the matter, for now the SMS-1 is the only equalizer that I think is worth getting.

jpmst3

12-09-09, 04:53 AM

Yes, I am continuously amazed that the custom functionality has been removed from a device as powerful as the AS-EQ1. :confused:

....especially when the setup has been handed off to a a full fledged computer. I suspect that it may get added at some point due to user demand, just like the SMS eventually extended down to 5 Hz from software updates.

JimP

12-09-09, 06:36 AM

jpmst3,

Why would you be amazed? The AS-EQ1 was never intended to be customizable.

jpmst3

12-09-09, 08:16 AM

jpmst3,

Why would you be amazed? The AS-EQ1 was never intended to be customizable.

I realize what its design intentions are/were, but when there is a huge market out there for a good all around solution what would allow the flexibility to customize it amazing what the potential for making money will do.;)

The SMS would be that solution if it only handled two subs. I suspect that there will be a version that addresses that need on down the road.

Perhaps a 'PRO' version or something along those lines, even if it were more money. I mean the ability to tweak it has to be the number one question not related to setup.

bsoko2

12-09-09, 11:20 AM

I have posted this before: i have a 6000+ room with openings to other parts of the house. I have a Conquest that goes 50 hz down and is located behind the seat approx 7 feet. i have dual MFW-15's (running full range) that are side-by-side under the large screen (61" Sammy). I have a SMS-1 and a Anti Mode 8033 to handle the LFE EQ. I run the 8033 first and then the SMS to tweak what the 8033 has done. This system works for me and is installed this way: AVR ---- SMS ---- 8033 ---- Sub(s).

Bill

mvp2005fan

12-09-09, 12:01 PM

All:

Many thanks for your speedy comments--it sounds like the SMS-1 is rather useful, and this is what I love about AVS--people so willing to help...

My situation is: I have 2 PC-12 Pluses that I have placed and adjusted in a primitive fashion with test tones and an SPL meter to hit 78dB at the listening position. I've adjusted things largely through trial and error and was trying to adjust the phases so as to provide the maximum signal at the listening position. It sounds good to me after a long bit ot tweaking, but you always want more, you know? :)

I have a Yamaha Z7 with YPAO, which has been reported to me as being junk compared to Audyssey or the Pioneer solution, so I don't use it and don't plan to. I measured out all of the speaker distances with a tape measure to ear level at my seat.

Questions:

1. Am I correct that since the SMS-1 has common sub outputs, it will "see" my 2 subs as one big sub signal and adjust accordingly?

2. Is the auto-Eq mode on the SMS worth using or should I just skip it and work on things manually?

3. In reviewing threads on the SMS-1, I've come accross a recommendation you should adjust the sub distance 2.5 further than it is in real life due to a circuitry delay. How important is this? Should I even bother?

3. I've read about REW, but have always been somewhat intimidated by it--thanks to you guys, I'm working my way through the FAQ's on it. Do you feel it is essential to use REW in order to get the most out of the SMS-1?

4. Any cautions/caveats you wish to share before my SMS-1 arrives? (I am aware that some have said you have to pay attention to what the SMS recommends as it can be too aggressive and damage the subs).

Thanks again for your time!

jpmst3

12-09-09, 12:04 PM

jpmst3

12-09-09, 12:10 PM

1. Am I correct that since the SMS-1 has common sub outputs, it will "see" my 2 subs as one big sub signal and adjust accordingly?

2. Is the auto-Eq mode on the SMS worth using or should I just skip it and work on things manually?

3. In reviewing threads on the SMS-1, I've come accross a recommendation you should adjust the sub distance 2.5 further than it is in real life due to a circuitry delay. How important is this? Should I even bother?

3. I've read about REW, but have always been somewhat intimidated by it--thanks to you guys, I'm working my way through the FAQ's on it. Do you feel it is essential to use REW in order to get the most out of the SMS-1?

4. Any cautions/caveats you wish to share before my SMS-1 arrives? (I am aware that some have said you have to pay attention to what the SMS recommends as it can be too aggressive and damage the subs).

1. Yes, the SMS has numerous ouputs but they are all summed, meaning they are not discrete and cannot differentiate the different freq response or time/phase adjustments needed for different subs in different locations. They are treated as one subwoofer.

2. I have never heard that and have not made that adjustment. I am not sure that would make much of difference with that amount of latency. It is easy enough to rectify though.

3. You don't need to use REW at all per se. REW is more granular and can provide additional feedback/verification. However, REW and any other analysis tool is only as good as the microphone and sound card you are using. If your mic is not calibrated or does not have an accurate correction file, I am not sure how much you can trust the results anyway.

4. Be resonable, cut the peaks first, as this what all EQs are most meant to do. Then apply minimal boost if you absolutely need it. The SMS definitely has the ability to destroy your sub, but for the most part you have to go out of your way to do it.

JimP

12-09-09, 12:27 PM

MVP

The SMS-1 does induce latency. Although 2.5 feet has been mentioned, I'd recommend running a test tone of your crossover frequency and to adjust the subwoofer distance in your receiver until the spl peaks out on your SPL meter.

bsoko2

12-09-09, 12:56 PM

I am sure it works fine Bill. But, wouldn't it be nice if one box did it all, especially when we are soooo close in about a half dozen devices!?!?

Yes! One EQ that does everything would be nice. I don't think that they really want to do that for the cheap. You can get standalone EQ's but they cost alot of $$$$. Neptune comes to mind. Outlaw Audio was supposed to come out with a AVR that did it all but nothing has materialized as yet.

Bill

jpmst3

12-09-09, 01:04 PM

Yes! One EQ that does everything would be nice. I don't think that they really want to do that for the cheap. You can get standalone EQ's but they cost alot of $$$$. Neptune comes to mind. Outlaw Audio was supposed to come out with a AVR that did it all but nothing has materialized as yet.

Yes, and that is what makes me insane. The cost would be minimal to add it all to one box. The SVS AS-EQ1 has 99% of it. All that is missing is to enable the user to tweak the settings which would essentially cost almost nothing, a software adjustment....

DS-21

12-09-09, 03:09 PM

All:

This is an old thread, but I was wondering of those that posted here (or if you own the SMS-1)--are you still using/happy with the SMS-1 after all this time?

How cheap are they now? If they're cheap enough I might just get one for my nearfield/computer system, too. (My 2d monitor has a composite input.)

I've used one for about 4 years now on my multisub setup in my main system, and for better or worse I think it's still the best sub processor out there for my needs. (Maybe JBL's BassQ is even better, but I've never seen one in use, or seen one for sale in my area.) With a good multisub setup, one often finds that little to no actual EQ is needed. But the SMS-1 makes setup so much faster due to the graphical display, and is also a benefit because it works as a line driver for three RCA subs. (If you're running pro amps for your subs, that is less of a benefit as pro amps typically have XLR daisy chains.)

My one caveat is that one has to spend more for it to be really useful, by buying Velodyne's MIC-5 spatial averaging kit. (Unless you can borrow it.) It gives you five mics so you can get a graphic representation of the response, rather than moving the one mic around and having to put the curves on the screen together in your head in real time. (I suppose one could also set up a camera to take shots every few seconds and then look at them all at once, but that defeats the real-time aspect of the SMS-1 . At any rate, measuring static in one spot is basically useless. You're only getting a very rough statistical approximation of the actual response.

Quite frankly, I wish there was another device that combined the easy GUI interface, stackable filters and discrete multiple sub capabilities. If there was I would buy it.

Same here! Velodyne, if you're listening, an SMS-2 with separate phase/EQ available on each output as well as a global EQ/phase, and maybe if you want (in order to reach the market of people doing the Welti multisub placement thing) a 4th output, would be in my system tomorrow were it only available.

I understand the SVS/Audessey unit handles most of this, but I was under the impression that you could not boost much if any on it. Can anyone verify if that is true?

I like Audyssey and find MultEQ XT a net benefit in my main, nearfield, and car systems, and DynamicEQ has changed the way I listen to music by allowing me to listen at lower levels without feeling like I'm losing anything. Also, SVS makes great subs. But this particular box is just too compromised for the price. (If it were, say, 250, I'd quit whining and just buy one for each sub.) It only handles two subwoofers, for one thing, whereas systems designed along any of the modern multisub methods (Geddes, Welti, etc.) systems have 3+ subs. And instead of allowing one to designate one as primary and matching the others to it, it matches the two subs to the lowest common denominator performance. Maybe an EQ2 will address those flaws.

Wrager

12-09-09, 03:21 PM

I'm glad someone revived this. Save me the time...how do I update the firmware?

mvp2005fan

12-10-09, 08:17 AM

mvp2005fan

12-10-09, 08:20 AM

How cheap are they now? If they're cheap enough I might just get one for my nearfield/computer system, too. (My 2d monitor has a composite input.)

Thanks for your thoughts--very helpful.

I've been told we're not supposed to discuss non-retail specific prices in public posts, but the current street price is >50% off retail at authorized Internet dealers. If you need a specific price/dealer, please PM me.

My one caveat is that one has to spend more for it to be really useful, by buying Velodyne's MIC-5 spatial averaging kit. (Unless you can borrow it.)

Yikes! That's one expensive kit, and don't know of a local source here to borrow from. I think I'm going to have to settle for MY preferred seat in the theater to get the great bass. :-)

mvp2005fan

12-10-09, 08:33 AM

1. Yes, the SMS has numerous ouputs but they are all summed, meaning they are not discrete and cannot differentiate the different freq response or time/phase adjustments needed for different subs in different locations. They are treated as one subwoofer.

2. I have never heard that and have not made that adjustment. I am not sure that would make much of difference with that amount of latency. It is easy enough to rectify though.

3. You don't need to use REW at all per se. REW is more granular and can provide additional feedback/verification. However, REW and any other analysis tool is only as good as the microphone and sound card you are using. If your mic is not calibrated or does not have an accurate correction file, I am not sure how much you can trust the results anyway.

4. Be resonable, cut the peaks first, as this what all EQs are most meant to do. Then apply minimal boost if you absolutely need it. The SMS definitely has the ability to destroy your sub, but for the most part you have to go out of your way to do it.

jpmst3: Thanks so much for your helpful comments.

I was wondering also if you found the autoEQ routines worth using, or should I just have a go at it manually from the get go?

Thanks again, everybody!

Kal Rubinson

12-10-09, 12:23 PM

I was wondering also if you found the autoEQ routines worth using, or should I just have a go at it manually from the get go?
The autoEQ routine acts like an auto graphic EQ in that it varies the gain of each filter but not the frequency or Q. Go manual from the start.

jpmst3

12-10-09, 12:26 PM

Same here! Velodyne, if you're listening, an SMS-2 with separate phase/EQ available on each output as well as a global EQ/phase, and maybe if you want (in order to reach the market of people doing the Welti multisub placement thing) a 4th output, would be in my system tomorrow were it only available.

Yes, I have mentioned a proposed SMS-2 for over a year now. You would think that with success of the SMS-1 and subsequent price drop due to new competition that there would be something in the works that not only handles two discrete subs, but also has more processing power for a more granular analysis.

jpmst3

12-10-09, 12:28 PM

jpmst3: Thanks so much for your helpful comments.

I was wondering also if you found the autoEQ routines worth using, or should I just have a go at it manually from the get go?

No problem, glad I could help.

Actually, I don't recall ever using the automated setup. If I remember correctly, the first couple software revisions did not have the auto-calibration yet, so I just set everything up manually and never bothered to try the auto.

DS-21

12-10-09, 02:06 PM

Thanks for your thoughts--very helpful.

I've been told we're not supposed to discuss non-retail specific prices in public posts, but the current street price is >50% off retail at authorized Internet dealers. If you need a specific price/dealer, please PM me.

Hmm...

Yikes! That's one expensive kit, and don't know if a local source here to borrow. I think I'm going to have to settle for MY preferred seat in the theater to get the great bass. :-)

That's not the issue. The issue is that one mic isn't going to give you the response at your seat, just a statistical approximation of it. It could be 6dB off in places. If you just have one mic, move it around over maybe a 3 foot radius and try to integrate it visually.

Yes, I have mentioned a proposed SMS-2 for over a year now. You would think that with success of the SMS-1 and subsequent price drop due to new competition that there would be something in the works that not only handles two discrete subs, but also has more processing power for a more granular analysis.

Just two subs wouldn't be worth anyone's bother. I know I wouldn't buy it on principle, even if with my current SMS-1 it would cover my current needs. Any modern well-designed system is going to have 3+ subwoofers. So let's say three is a useful minimum, but 4 or even 6 wouldn't be excessive.

JimP

12-10-09, 02:17 PM

Or use REW. Take multiple readings and let the program average them.

Fact of the matter is with electronic equalization you have a choice of getting one spot really good or compromise and try to get a setting that keeps any position from being really bad.

I did a poll a while back to see what others were doing. It was about evenly split about doing just the primary listening position vs averaging multiple positions.

mvp2005fan

12-10-09, 04:07 PM

The autoEQ routine acts like an auto graphic EQ in that it varies the gain of each filter but not the frequency or Q. Go manual from the start.

Cool. That's what I'll do then. Thanks!

DS-21

12-10-09, 04:40 PM

Or use REW. Take multiple readings and let the program average them.

FuzzMeasure will do the same on a Mac.

Fact of the matter is with electronic equalization you have a choice of getting one spot really good or compromise and try to get a setting that keeps any position from being really bad.

Not if you do a modern best practices system design and use multiple subwoofers placed around the room and electronic EQ! And for those pursuing an upgrade path the order should be first multisubs, then EQ. Multiple subwoofers (they don't have to be that big or powerful individually) will provide a greater advantage than EQ with a single sub, so start with the big improvement first and refine later.

Of course, if one compromises then the results are bound to be suboptimal. For movies, that might not matter so much because one just cares about the size and scope of the fake boom. For music the difference between flat/clean/extended bass around the room and a single subwoofer are instantly apparent.

craig john

12-10-09, 06:39 PM

Old thread. Re-reading some of my previous posts, I would like to update my experiences with the SMS-1 since then. I have changed subwoofers to a pair of Seaton Sound Submersives. I've also acquired a room acoustical analysis program called xtz Room Analyzer:
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true
This program can measure frequency response as well as time response. I am using Audyssey MultEQ XT and then the SMS-1 to tweak the Audyssey result to my liking.

The following is my before and after response:

Before:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=160451&stc=1&d=1260490862

After:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=160452&stc=1&d=1260490862

(Note that these curves are a 3-seat "averaged" response.)

Obviously the FR is flatter after the EQ's were applied, and the SMS-1 is primarily responsible for that. However, Audyssey had a huge effect in the time domain response as seen in the (small) "Time/Frequency/Magnitude" graphs in the upper right corners. These depict the time response in the room, the "overhang", if you will. Note how much less overhang there is across the entire bass spectrum.

I ran Audyssey first, with the SMS-1 set for "flat" response. This allowed Audyssey to account for the latency of the SMS-1 and set the distance setting appropriately. Then, when Audyssey was finished, I used the SMS-1 to fine tune the FR.

The sound is fantastic, definitely the best, tightest, most tuneful bass I've ever had in my room. For music, the sealed Submersives mated with my sealed Atlantic Technology 8200e speakers provide a seamless blend at the crossover, (100 Hz), and bass that just fills the room without bloat or boominess or muddiness. I attribute this to the decreased reverbation time provided by Audysey. For movies, the subsonic extension of the Submersives coupled with their massive output capabilities provide all the shaking, rattling and percussiveness you could want.

For a long time, I was leery about "cascading" multiple EQ's. I have gotten over it. :D

Craig

craig john

12-10-09, 06:59 PM

Not if you do a modern best practices system design and use multiple subwoofers placed around the room and electronic EQ! And for those pursuing an upgrade path the order should be first multisubs, then EQ. Multiple subwoofers (they don't have to be that big or powerful individually) will provide a greater advantage than EQ with a single sub, so start with the big improvement first and refine later.
While I agree that multiple subs are always better than one, I don't agree that one can forgo EQ, especially time-based EQ like Audyssey. Multiple subs can help flatten the FR, but they won't decrease the decay time in the room. Only acoustic treatments and time-domain correction can do that. IME, time-domain correction is more important than flat FR.

Of course, if one compromises then the results are bound to be suboptimal. For movies, that might not matter so much because one just cares about the size and scope of the fake boom. For music the difference between flat/clean/extended bass around the room and a single subwoofer are instantly apparent.
IME, long decay times, ringing, overhang, etc. do more damage to the sound of the bass in a room than does uneven FR. IMO, one should FIRST fix the room acoustically, then use electronic, time-domain EQ to fix the time-domain response... THEN fix the FR.

Craig

DS-21

12-10-09, 09:10 PM

While I agree that multiple subs are always better than one, I don't agree that one can forgo EQ, especially time-based EQ like Audyssey.

I keep coming back to this graph :)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9120/sms1frgraphwebsize.jpg

Three subs, Geddes-style placement, note the location of the sliders.

Multiple subs can help flatten the FR, but they won't decrease the decay time in the room. Only acoustic treatments and time-domain correction can do that. IME, time-domain correction is more important than flat FR.

I think that, with placement, one can address both. That said, the combination of MultEQ XT (or similarly capable system) in the receiver with multisubs and at least some parametric sub EQ is probably the gold standard. I've never heard better, at any rate. And thanks for your measurements of post-Audyssey EQ. There's an awful lot of mysticism on the Audyssey thread about that kind of thing...

mvp2005fan

12-10-09, 09:17 PM

I keep coming back to this graph :)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9120/sms1frgraphwebsize.jpg

Three subs, Geddes-style placement, note the location of the sliders.

I think that, with placement, one can address both. That said, the combination of MultEQ XT (or similarly capable system) in the receiver with multisubs and at least some parametric sub EQ is probably the gold standard. I've never heard better, at any rate. And thanks for your measurements of post-Audyssey EQ. There's an awful lot of mysticism on the Audyssey thread about that kind of thing...

OK, I don't have Audyssey. I just have a Z7 with YPAO, which I understand isn't as good. I don't wish to buy a new receiver or an Audyssey unit, so should I run YPAO before the SMS-1 or just go with the SMS-1?

DS-21

12-11-09, 12:22 AM

mvp2005fan

12-11-09, 07:00 AM

Well, Audyssey (from what I can infer based on provided measurements; they're too classy to out-and-out name competitors) didn't fare too well in Harman's blind listening comparisons of room correction systems, (http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/11/subjective-and-objective-evaluation-of.html) so who knows? What I would do, as described by craig john, supra (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17697205&postcount=92), is first EQ the sub, then run YPAO. Then, if you want to change the sub further, just go back to the SMS-1 and do it. That way, the level-setting function of YPAO will be more accurate, as you'll know that the crossover/level isn't being impacted by peaks/nulls in the sub's FR. (Or, if you know you do have big peaks/nulls in the crossover region, you can manually adjust levels to compensate.)

PS: That particular measurement was done when I was using a Panasonic XR55 receiver that had no EQ capability at all. (And vented "pro audio" subs - a Tannoy B475 and twin vented subs with JBL 2235H's - hence the rolloff in the 20s.)

Thanks for the link to that interesting study and for the advice.

The really interesting part to me (as someone new to this) was the following conclusion from the study:

"A flat in-room target response is clearly not the optimal target curve for room equalization. The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the room gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist".

So perfectly flat isn't so "perfect" after all?...:confused:

JimP

12-11-09, 07:50 AM

craig john

12-11-09, 08:55 AM

craig john

12-11-09, 09:13 AM

I keep coming back to this graph :)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9120/sms1frgraphwebsize.jpg

Three subs, Geddes-style placement, note the location of the sliders.

I think that, with placement, one can address both. That said, the combination of MultEQ XT (or similarly capable system) in the receiver with multisubs and at least some parametric sub EQ is probably the gold standard. I've never heard better, at any rate. And thanks for your measurements of post-Audyssey EQ. There's an awful lot of mysticism on the Audyssey thread about that kind of thing...
That's a nice flat *frequency* response, but the SMS-1 doesn't measure the *time* response. You *might* still have some serious ringing that is not shown on the SMS-1 display. (Since you're using Audyssey, I'm not saying you do, but you might.) The SMS-1 just can't tell you that. You need something that can look at the response over time.

BTW, it's interesting that I put the SMS-1 mic right next to the xtz mic. The frequency response curves were virtually the same, verifying to me that both systems are accurate.

Craig

cschang

12-11-09, 09:52 AM

JimP

12-11-09, 09:54 AM

... and to invoke the slight rise of the lower range, (I like a little "house curve".) :)

Craig

Me too. This is where I had to fine tune those lower frequencies by ear. Not too much and not too little. Once I got it, I didn't want to touch anything.

jpmst3

12-11-09, 10:05 AM

Me too. This is where I had to fine tune those lower frequencies by ear. Not too much and not too little. Once I got it, I didn't want to touch anything.

I like the house curve as well. That is the charm of the SMS-1 compared to the EQ1.

craig john

12-11-09, 10:21 AM

Craig, do you have measurements that show the difference in FR with and without the SMS-1 in your system, ie. just using Audyssey?
Hi Curtis,

I don't remember if I saved those, (or if I even did them), but I will check tonight. They would be on my laptop at home if I still have them.

If not, I can re-generate them. I might do that anyway and enlarge the Time/Frequency/Magnitude graphs. They are really quite interesting and different than what REW displays.

However, what I would rather not do, is to take the SMS-1 out of the system completely to re-measure Audyssey by itself. I would have to re-do Audyssey again and I have the system sounding so good right now, that I don't want to mess with that. I can re-measure the system with the SMS-1 set on Preset 6. Is that good enough?

Craig

craig john

12-11-09, 10:31 AM

OK, I don't have Audyssey. I just have a Z7 with YPAO, which I understand isn't as good. I don't wish to buy a new receiver or an Audyssey unit, so should I run YPAO before the SMS-1 or just go with the SMS-1?
I would run YPAO first with the SMS-1 set on Preset 6, (EQ Defeat), then run the SMS-1 on the result. Running YPAO first will set the levels, distances and crossovers. The SMS-1 EQ should be performed after those settings are in-place.

Editorial comment: I had a Yamaha receiver a few years ago. I did not care for the sound of the YPAO and I defeated the EQ it invoked. I just used YPAO for the level, distance and crossover settings, and I even changed the crossover on some channels from "Large" to 80 Hz. If you decide to defeat the YPAO EQ, do it before you do the SMS-1 EQ. The YPAO EQ "corrects" down to 63 Hz, so you don't want that in the system for your SMS-1 EQ if you later plan to change it.

Craig

cschang

12-11-09, 10:36 AM

I don't remember if I saved those, (or if I even did them), but I will check tonight. They would be on my laptop at home if I still have them.

If not, I can re-generate them. I might do that anyway and enlarge the Time/Frequency/Magnitude graphs. They are really quite interesting and different than what REW displays.

However, what I would rather not do, is to take the SMS-1 out of the system completely to re-measure Audyssey by itself. I would have to re-do Audyssey again and I have the system sounding so good right now, that I don't want to mess with that. I can re-measure the system with the SMS-1 set on Preset 6. Is that good enough?

Don't go through too much trouble. I was just interested in seeing how much difference the SMS-1 made, and if it was audible. I am curious because I am skeptical about throwing two sets of filters into the chain along with two sets of ADA conversions (but now that I think about it, I am not sure the SMS-1 works in the digital domain).

I have heard what Audyssey does to the bass a few times, and on a few different systems, and it has always done a great job.

mvp2005fan

12-11-09, 10:38 AM

I would run YPAO first with the SMS-1 set on Preset 6, (EQ Defeat), then run the SMS-1 on the result. Running YPAO first will set the levels, distances and crossovers. The SMS-1 EQ should be performed after those settings are in-place.

Editorial comment: I had a Yamaha receiver a few years ago. I did not care for the sound of the YPAO and I defeated the EQ it invoked. I just used YPAO for the level, distance and crossover settings, and I even changed the crossover on some channels from "Large" to 80 Hz. If you decide to defeat the YPAO EQ, do it before you do the SMS-1 EQ. The YPAO EQ "corrects" down to 63 Hz, so you don't want that in the system for your SMS-1 EQ if you later plan to change it.

Craig

If I'm reading you right, I could just skip YPAO entirely-- measure and enter the distances, set the levels with an SPL meter, and select a crossover in the Yamaha, then use the SMS-1 and manually adjust things to try to get the gradual downward sloping "house curve" (totally skipping any of the auto-eq routines). Right?

(The SMS-1 just got dropped off on my porch this AM, so I'll have a go at it within the week :) )

craig john

12-11-09, 10:51 AM

If I'm reading you right, I could just skip YPAO entirely-- measure and enter the distances, set the levels with an SPL meter, and select a crossover in the Yamaha, then use the SMS-1 and manually adjust things to try to get the gradual downward sloping "house curve" (totally skipping any of the auto-eq routines). Right?
Sure you can do that, but then you won't have the correct distance setting for the subwoofer. YPAO measures the "acoustic distance" which, with the SMS-1 in the circuit, will be longer than the actual physical distance. This is to account for the latency in the SMS-1.

(The SMS-1 just got dropped off on my porch this AM, so I'll have a go at it within the week :) )
Have fun. :)

Craig

craig john

12-11-09, 10:53 AM

Don't go through too much trouble. I was just interested in seeing how much difference the SMS-1 made, and if it was audible. I am curious because I am skeptical about throwing two sets of filters into the chain along with two sets of ADA conversions (but now that I think about it, I am not sure the SMS-1 works in the digital domain).
The SMS-1 is a digital EQ.

I have heard what Audyssey does to the bass a few times, and on a few different systems, and it has always done a great job.
Agreed! :)

Craig

RMK!

12-11-09, 08:34 PM

I want to clarify something from my post above. Before I run Audyssey MultEQ XT, I set the SMS-1 to Preset 6 which is "EQ Defeat". Therefore, it is in the circuit, but not EQ'ing anything. Audyssey can measure the latency of the SMS-1 and set the distance setting appropriately and do it's time/frequency correction. THEN, the SMS-1 is used to "tweak" the FR to a little flatter, and to invoke the slight rise of the lower range, (I like a little "house curve".) :)

Craig
I use the SMS-1 and MultEQ XT in a similar way with my Integra SSP. The main difference is my SSP has two sub outs that I connect to two co-located sub pairs. Audyssey calibrates these pairs separately (levels and distance) and I have only one of the sub pairs connected to the SMS-1 (in no EQ Preset 6). I then use the SMS-1 to view the summed FR of all the subs and can EQ the one pair to taste.

This would work much better if the SMS-1 allowed two discreet sub ins and outs (SMS-2;)) but it gives me some utility and I like the convenience of the real time low frequency display of the SMS-1. Audyssey does most of the heavy lifting EQ wise and I can at least see what it has done and tweak within the limitations described above.

jpmst3

12-11-09, 08:43 PM

This would work much better if the SMS-1 allowed two discreet sub ins and outs (SMS-2;)) but it gives me some utility and I like the convenience of the real time low frequency display of the SMS-1.

I put in an inqury to Velodyne regarding a proposed replacement for the SMS-1.
Alas, there is nothing in the pipline as of yet.

They are focussed on updating the DD line for next year. After that maybe...maybe.:(

JargonGR

12-25-09, 08:17 AM

But isn't the SMS included on the DD subs anyway? So if they update them they should update the SMS as well.

Nevertheless, there is always the Audyssey unit out there.

jpmst3

12-25-09, 08:43 AM

But isn't the SMS included on the DD subs anyway? So if they update them they should update the SMS as well.

Nevertheless, there is always the Audyssey unit out there.

Yes, but, it will not be updated to include a second discrete input/ouput.

The Audyssey is too limited as well not allowing the user to adjust the settings.

Of course, this has been discussed at length in this thread and others. The Audyssey does not allow enough boost to the lowe end to emulate an LT circuit that is required for sealed alignments.

WilsonL

12-25-09, 12:44 PM

This would work much better if the SMS-1 allowed two discreet sub ins and outs (SMS-2;))

Can you use a separate SMS-1 for each sub if you want more control?

bsoko2

12-25-09, 01:01 PM

Can you use a separate SMS-1 for each sub if you want more control?

You can use up to 3 subs on one SMS-1 each with its own setting, then you combine them all for one curve. I use a Anti Mode 8033 with 4 subs and let it do its thing, then use the SMS-1 for a final tweak.

Bill

jpmst3

12-25-09, 01:25 PM

Can you use a separate SMS-1 for each sub if you want more control?

Yes, you could use multiple SMSs, one for each output.
But, there still would be no adjustement for delay/distance in the SMS.

They are now cheap enough that you could pick up a couple of them for under $800.

The other inconvenience is that you would need to use one to EQ them seperately, then use one to EQ them together, then seperate them again.

DS-21

12-25-09, 07:08 PM

But isn't the SMS included on the DD subs anyway? So if they update them they should update the SMS as well.

Any updates they do to the processing within their subwoofers are not likely to address the needs discussed here, discrete processing individual subs in for modern multisub systems, etc.

Nevertheless, there is always the Audyssey unit out there.

Unfortunately, the Audyssey/SVS box is also useless for a modern multisub system, as it only EQ's two subwoofers, and does so in a decidedly suboptimal manner (making them both equal instead of setting one as the primary and using others to fill in the response from there).

The only subwoofer EQ box that, out of the box, is really useful right now is the the JBL BassQ. The SMS-1 works well too, if the individual subs have some phase/FR/level adjustments.

You can use up to 3 subs on one SMS-1 each with its own setting, then you combine them all for one curve.

Is that new firmware? If so, awesome! Go Velodyne!

Where can I get it, and is it possible to load it onto an SMS-1 from a Mac?

My SMS-1 only has global adjustments, and any other adjustments must come either upstream or downstream of it?

craig john

12-26-09, 07:54 AM

You can use up to 3 subs on one SMS-1 each with its own setting, then you combine them all for one curve. I use a Anti Mode 8033 with 4 subs and let it do its thing, then use the SMS-1 for a final tweak.

Bill
What do you mean by "each with it's own setting"? Are you referring to the settings on the subs themselves, i.e., levels, phase, etc.? On the SMS-1, you can *connect* 3 subs, but you only get one, global EQ curve. You can't have any SMS-1 "settings" individually for each sub.

Craig

JargonGR

12-26-09, 08:40 AM

craig john

12-26-09, 09:36 AM

Damn good to know! I am about to receive two dual 15" subs (DIY) and I currently own the SMS-1. I will also use the BASSIS from Marchand (here) (http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html) in conjuction with the SMS.

I was thinking of buying the Audyssey unit but from what I read here it is not going to do me any good.

My idea is to use the BASSIS first for each sub with the SMS-1 as a measuring device and then combine both subs on the SMS for fine tuning. Yet, I will also buy an Onkyo SC5507 and this is where it gets tricky.

Would a second SMS help at all?
If you're getting the Onkyo, I suggest you try Audyssey MultEQ XT plus the SMS-1 first before investing in the BASSIS unit. Scroll up to post #92 to see what I was able to accomplish with that combination.

The biggest problem when trying to setup dual subs is to set them to "arrive" at the listening position in-phase and at the same level. If you can place them so they are equidistant to the LP, this will help. If you can't, you'll need some capability to delay one relative to the other and to level-match them. Neither the SMS-1 nor the Marchand unit can do that. However, Audyssey MultEQ XT in your receiver CAN do that, by setting different distances for each subwoofer and by adjusting each sub's level independently.

You can then use the SMS-1's Phase control to set the phase of the combined output for the best response with the speakers. Frankly, I think you can easily get very flat response with the combo of Audyssey MultEQ XT and an SMS-1, and still have the ability to adjust your bass to "taste". I really doubt you'll need the BASSIS unit.

Craig

JargonGR

12-26-09, 11:21 AM

Well the BASSIS is in the package anyway so it is already on its way.

Other than that fortunately I am able to position the subs equidistantly from the LP since they will be on the left and right of the center and in between my mains.

Well it is certainly going to be fun really soon with all the new toys I am getting so I am going to post feedback when I start setting the system up.

Right now I am using a small sub (KEF PSW3500) compared to my mains yet, combined with my Onkyo 905 and the SMS-1 I am surprised I am getting even minimal utility from it and the difference before applying EQ is from useless to usable even though just a little.

The thing is that buying yet another box like the Audyssey EQ1 is not actually needed in my set up.

mvp2005fan

01-05-10, 07:27 PM

jpmst3

01-05-10, 11:01 PM

what is the practical limit before harming the subwoofers? 1 db? 3 db? More? Sorry for the dumb question, but I don't wish to damage the subs by monkeying around too much and was not able to find a specific answer in the Outlaw guide.

No one knows, it depends on your room, your listening volume, the freq being boosted, the excursion available vs. remaining amp power, etc...

mvp2005fan

01-06-10, 06:57 AM

Got it--I've reviewed the entire thread and will post some screenshots for you guys/gals to comment on in a few days.

Thanks!

craig john

01-06-10, 10:49 AM

OK, so I finally started messing with this. I have the SMS-1 hooked up to 2 SVS PC-12 Pluses. My mains are Def Tech Mythos 1's. Mains are set to small, with an 80 Hz crossover via a Yamaha Z7. The SVS subs subsonic filter is set to 20 Hz (as per the SVS manual). Subs are equidistant from the main listening position, and their relative phase and gain have been adjusted appropriately to get me to 78 db (other speakers are at 75 db at reference level).

Before I start messing with the equalizer-- I realize that removing peaks is the thing to emphasize, but if I want to boost a given frequency, what is the practical limit before harming the subwoofers? 1 db? 3 db? More? Sorry for the dumb question, but I don't wish to damage the subs by monkeying around too much and was not able to find a specific answer in the Outlaw guide.

Thanks!
Adding 3 dB of gain at a specific frequency requires a doubling of power required at that frequency. Adding another 3 db, (for a total of 6 dB, which is the max the SMS-1 will allow), adds another doubling of power required. If you use a very narrow "Q", this is generally not a big problem. If you use a wide "Q", this could be a *very* big problem.

Myself, I never use more than 3 dB of boost, no matter what the "Q" range is. If you need more than 3 dB of boost, you are probably dealing with a null, and nulls are not going to respond to boost anyway.

On the other side, I try to limit cuts to no more than 6 dB. Cutting a frequency by 6 dB halves the power, then halves it again for 4x reduction in power at that frequency.

Finally, after optimizing the response at the primary LP, I measure the response at other prime LP's, to ensure that the applied EQ hasn't totally screwed up those positions.

Craig

mvp2005fan

01-06-10, 11:15 AM

Adding 3 dB of gain at a specific frequency requires a doubling of power required at that frequency. Adding another 3 db, (for a total of 6 dB, which is the max the SMS-1 will allow), adds another doubling of power required. If you use a very narrow "Q", this is generally not a big problem. If you use a wide "Q", this could be a *very* big problem.

Myself, I never use more than 3 dB of boost, no matter what the "Q" range is. If you need more than 3 dB of boost, you are probably dealing with a null, and nulls are not going to respond to boost anyway.

On the other side, I try to limit cuts to no more than 6 dB. Cutting a frequency by 6 dB halves the power, then halves it again for 4x reduction in power at that frequency.

Finally, after optimizing the response at the primary LP, I measure the response at other prime LP's, to ensure that the applied EQ hasn't totally screwed up those positions.

Craig

Thanks, Craig! That is very helpful (also thanks for the other tips via PM you sent). I'll give it a whirl.

Any tips on adjusting the wideness of the Q's or is it mostly a trial and error thing?

Wrager

01-06-10, 06:55 PM

Anybody have trouble getting the OSD to come up with an HDMI connection?
Can't seem to view it on my Yammy (RX-V665 or 1700).

GPBURNS

01-09-10, 10:50 PM

I’m thinking I can retire my sms-1 now
I’ve had a integra 80.1 for a few weeks and finally got a chance to run a real good 8 measure MultEQ XT without sms-1 in loop with my dual SubMersives
And they have never sounded better.
I was running single out into Sms-1 for several weeks with decent results
Both graphs look similar when compare with sms-1 in loop and when without
(my subs are on opposite side walls and I have very flat response without any EQ so not a lot needs to be done in that regards)
But the dual sub EQ on 80.1 must be is doing something special in time domain
As sound is just better without the sms-1 in loop.
I was getting some crazy latency with sms-1 in loop- showing sometimes
25 to 30 delay (tried may times) - get perfect distance on both subs when
sms-1 taken out so maybe something going on there

Nice having sms-1 around to see result and do a bit more tweaking but I think we get carried away sometimes on over EQing and rob the audio of life

mvp2005fan

01-14-10, 09:51 PM

craig john

01-14-10, 10:17 PM

mvp2005fan

01-14-10, 11:32 PM

Did you play with the Phase setting on Page 2 of the SMS-1? That dip just above the crossover should be correctable with the Phase settings on Page 2. Try all the settings in 15 degree increments. Then flip the polarity and try them again. Another thing to try is to use your receiver's "All-Channel Stereo" setting. I know the SMS-1 says to use "Stereo", but ACS brings all your speakers into play and you may find that adding the CC and surrounds brings the "system" in-phase with the sub while the L/R's by themselves are a little out of phase.

Finally, it doesn't look like you tried changing any center frequencies. If you put the cursor on a band and hit "Select" you get a little menu that allows you to adjust the center frequency of the filter. You can also adjust the "Q" of the filter, which is the width of the band of frequencies affected by the filter. Between these two controls, you have much more flexibility than you are currently using to impact your FR.

Now, get back to work! :) :D

Craig

Hi, Craig:
Thanks for the speedy reply!

Yes--I went through all 24 combinations of phase and polarity to try to improve that 80Hz crossover point dip. +150 was the best and what I settled on. (The subs phase controls are both set to 0)

I tried changing the center frequencies of the filters around the dip, but boosting didn't seem to help much, so I just set things back to the default. Even changing the Q's didn't seem to rectify the dip-- I wonder if it's a true null in my room maybe?

I will take your suggestion though and run the "All Channel Stereo" setting to see what happens, and I'll post a pic.

Since the SMS-1 will only alter the LFE channel, do you think messing around with the receiver's manual equalizer controls would help, since it controls what comes out of the mains?

I'll be back to work soon! :)

Spizz

01-16-10, 06:21 AM

fquails

01-16-10, 06:41 AM

Just got my SMS-1 and am about to hook it up. Reading the manual I have 2 questions-

Why must I adjust the volume on the SMS-1?

After I have adjusted the volume on the SMS-1 I won't have to touch it any more and then I can just use the volume on my Receiver? (Please tell me this is so :) )

Must I leave the SMS-1 on for it to work, or does it work (I mean once calibration is done) with the front switch turned off?

If it must be on when your receiver is on how do people accomplish this easily? ie. leave it on? Turn it on and the Receiver on? (Could be a hassle).

Thanks guys.

1. To match the volume level of your front speakers. Once you've done that, you can leave it untouched (except to do some final fine tuning of bass level to suit your taste). Once set, the volume you select during setup is saved in memory.

2. It has to be "on" to do its job. However, all settings are saved in flash memory, so all settings are retained even if the SMS-1 is turned off or unplugged.

3. The power button in the front is a "standby" switch. Leave it pushed in for standby mode. With the "standby" switch pushed in, you have two options of turning on the SMS-1 from your chair:

a. If your receiver has a 12 volt trigger output, you can hook that up to the SMS-1's 12 volt trigger input. When your receiver is turned on, the receiver's 12 volt trigger wakes up the SMS-1.

b. Or, you can get a remote control with 'macros'. You can program it to turn on/off multiple components (ie receiver, TV, SMS-1) at the touch of one button. Of course you'll have to aim the remote in the general direction of the components until all components are "on"/"off". Prices range from $25 to Hundreds of dollars.

fquails

01-16-10, 06:50 AM

Anybody read this post from another forum?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-electronic-equalization-devices/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html

My receiver's sub volume trim levels range anywhere from -2db to +2.5db. That's the signal feeding my SMS-1. According to the link above, the sub volume level in the receiver should be set very low (-5db or less I think) to prevent distortion caused by the SMS-1!! Then jack up the volume of the SMS-1 or subwoofer....geeez!

JimP

01-16-10, 07:36 AM

fquails

01-16-10, 07:47 AM

I finally got around to using the SMS-1 in my system and would appreciate any suggestions please.

For reference:
Mains: Mythos 1 x 2
Subs: SVS PC-12 Plus x 2; 20 Hz subsonic filter engaged per SVS; No plugs
Receiver: Yamaha Z-7
Bass Management via AV Receiver: Crossover 80 Hz
I used the "Straight" mode to equalize in: no DSP--just stereo in the Mains with Subs handling anything below 80 Hz
Before starting, I balanced the 2 subs to 78db at the listening position and both subs a equidistant from the primary listening position. The mains were set at 75 db
I did not use YPAO, but did things manually (and added the 2.8 feet for the SMS latency).
I read both the manual and the Outlow users guide, and this thread :)

Here is the screenshot of the original tracing with no EQ:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=163710&d=1263526071

Here is the screenshot after the 1st EQ attempt:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=163711&stc=1&d=1263526071

I first adjusted the phase and polarity of the sub signal, which helped with the dip at around 87. I then tried to be conservative and did not boost more than 3db or cut more than 6db. (I have no idea how much the subs can take, so I played it safe). I played around with the frequencies around the dip at 87 Hz, but even with changing the frequencies and adjusting the Q's, I found I couldn't make much difference at the crossover. I ran through some heavy bass in movies and things sounded good to me (although I have to admit, switching between option "5" custom and option "6" EQ defeat really didn't sound hugely different).

Therefore, I would really appreciate any specific suggestions to help improve the results please.

Thanks in advance for your time!

Can you adjust the crossover's slope in your receiver? Too steep of a slope may result in a dip near the crossover frequency. If not, you can try using the SMS-1's crossover as it gives you the flexibility of adjusting the slope. Another thing to try is tweaking the phase on the subs themselves--you may end up using a different phase setting for each sub.

For me, EQ'd vs. non-EQ'd bass is more easily distinguishable with music. Once I heard the difference in music, I knew what to listen for in movies.

I just read through this thread, and realized I shouldn't cut more than 6dB? I've cut up to 13dB, and stacked sliders to cut more than 13dB...YIKES!! Curt from Velodyne told me that shouldn't be a problem....hhhmmm..

Anyway, attached is my curve for movies ....typical volume when watching movies is around -30dB---nowhere near reference level.

GPBURNS

01-16-10, 07:48 AM

Hi, Craig:
Thanks for the speedy reply!

Yes--I went through all 24 combinations of phase and polarity to try to improve that 80Hz crossover point dip. +150 was the best and what I settled on. (The subs phase controls are both set to 0)

I tried changing the center frequencies of the filters around the dip, but boosting didn't seem to help much, so I just set things back to the default. Even changing the Q's didn't seem to rectify the dip-- I wonder if it's a true null in my room maybe?

I will take your suggestion though and run the "All Channel Stereo" setting to see what happens, and I'll post a pic.

Since the SMS-1 will only alter the LFE channel, do you think messing around with the receiver's manual equalizer controls would help, since it controls what comes out of the mains?

I'll be back to work soon! :)

Your graphs are not that bad and its definitely x-over causing dib,
have you tried adjusting x-over to main at say 70 or 90 and graph.
even moving moving mains / subs few inches can help.

fquails

01-16-10, 08:04 AM

fquails,

Sound like someone posted that didn't know what they're talking about.

Generally, its better to set your receiver to -5 to provide for the headroom necessary in most content. It has nothing to do with preventing distortion in the SMS-1.

What I do is adjust the sub level in my pre/pro to -4, try to keep my volume in the SMS-1 to between 15 and 17, then make up the difference to get +3dbs above other speakers by adjusting the volume setting on the back of the sub.

Oh good! I should be fine then...SMS-1 Volume around 15-22, pre/pro/receiver around -2 to +2.5, and subs around half. I have my bass around 7 db hotter than my mains though...that's the only way I can 'feel' the bass as my main volume is normally at -30dB for movies.

JimP

01-16-10, 12:45 PM

fquails,

7 dbs hot will cause voices to sound a little muffed. You might want to taper it some going into your mains.

fquails

01-16-10, 07:52 PM

fquails,

7 dbs hot will cause voices to sound a little muffed. You might want to taper it some going into your mains.

Yep..it's tapered...only the deep bass frequencies are 7dB hot...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=163837&d=1263649655

Oh yeah...the above had the subsonic filter set at 16 Hz, slope of 24db/octave. Got an email from SVS' Ed M. today recommending I bump up the subsonic filter to 18Hz, slope of 24db/octave to ensure the subwoofer is protected. I'm making the change right after this post.

Macfan424

01-17-10, 10:21 AM

...Got an email from SVS' Ed M. today recommending I bump up the subsonic filter to 18Hz, slope of 24db/octave to ensure the subwoofer is protected. I'm making the change right after this post.That's interesting. I thought SVS subs had their own infrasonic filter to prevent damage. Which model do you have?

fquails

01-17-10, 12:25 PM

That's interesting. I thought SVS subs had their own infrasonic filter to prevent damage. Which model do you have?

I have the PC12-NSD. I was surprised at that recommendation, too. If you notice, all the sliders for the lower bass frequencies were in the negative dB's to reduce output...there was no boosting, so the sub's output below 20Hz was not 'forced' by my EQ settings.

But, I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I made the adjustment as Ed M. suggested.

Macfan424

01-17-10, 01:45 PM

^^^^ Hmmmm... I have one of those too (together with a 16-46 PC+), and have been using a 5Hz filter for sometime. I push the low end a bit, but have not seen (heard) any signs of distress. Ed knows his stuff, though. I think ignorance was bliss in my case. Gives me something new to think about now. :)

PoorSignal

02-22-10, 03:22 PM

mvp2005fan

02-22-10, 03:57 PM

Hi, what is this 2.5 feet delay people are talking about with the SMS-1?
Does that mean if my sub is at 8 feet, and 8 is entered in the receiver setting, I should shortened that number to 5.5 feet in the receiver, so the combined delay addes up to 8 feet

It would be 10.5 feet. However, perhaps the easiest (? best) way to measure the acoustic distance from your sub to your listening position is to use any automatic setup routines your receiver comes with to get that distance.

PoorSignal

02-22-10, 04:20 PM

It would be 10.5 feet. However, perhaps the easiest (? best) way to measure the acoustic distance from your sub to your listening position is to use any automatic setup routines your receiver comes with to get that distance.

Oh right, you are saying the sub is now further back so it fires the sound SOONER. Thanks.

I havn't used the auto setup for my receiver (YPAO). I adjust the volume with a SPL unit and enter distance manually.. It sounds like I need to find the mic that comes with it.

I have read the outlaw's guide and I think I will be happy with what the SMS-1 can do. (with movable sliders in frequency and adjustable Q for each slider). People usually knock the unit because it doesn't correct for time domain. Can I ask with 1 single sub setup, there is no worries about the lack of time domain right? I could understand multiple sub you want the sound to arrive at the same time or else it will be same as distorted bass.

goneten

02-22-10, 04:24 PM

As I've mentioned in the past, the SMS-1 is a phenomenal tool for displaying real-time low resolution frequency graphs. The issue is that you can't see anomalies in the time domain which are just as important if not more so than frequency specific aberrations.

One can hit 1 billion flat graphs with the SMS-1 and each one would sound different because of filter induced ringing. When you apply a filter with varying Q to target a resonance and the filter has inadequate bandwidth or bandwidth overshoot then you add ringing to the system. Of course, you won't see this added ringing but you can certainly hear it.

So you can easily make matters worse if you don't know what you are doing. Of course, you won't know if you are making mistakes because you can't see them. My advice to SMS-1 users is to use a program like Room EQ wizard to analyze the room and use the filters available on the SMS-1 to target the resonances in the room.

At least you won't be going in blind.

Regards,

PoorSignal

02-22-10, 04:32 PM

Is it possible to use the Mic that comes with the SMS-1 with REW?
What kind of cable would I need?

jsil

02-22-10, 05:06 PM

I'm getting little sounding pops from my sub when I use sms-1.

fsrenduro

02-22-10, 07:02 PM

I'm getting little sounding pops from my sub when I use sms-1.

Under what circumstances? When you're doing measurements, when you're listening to music, etc?

dookie1

02-22-10, 09:08 PM

Under what circumstances? When you're doing measurements, when you're listening to music, etc?

when it 'reboots' upon saving settings, i get some very subtle pops. at no other time however.

jsil

02-23-10, 04:31 AM

fsrenduro,
When I'm watching a movie that's when I get the popping sounds.

fsrenduro

02-23-10, 10:43 AM

Once you are done doing your measurements and tweaking unhook the audio cables going from the SMS to your receiver (I think it's the one labeled EQ output). You only need these hooked up for calibrating. There is some bleed through with that hookup if you leave them connected all the time. I got thumps just like both you guys are getting as well as when I would change inputs.

dookie1

02-23-10, 12:19 PM

i don't buy this...

i mean, if the AVR isn't set to the input that the SMS is connected to, it shouldn't matter what is coming across the eq out connection, right?

on 2nd thought...every time i hear the thumps it is at a reboot caused by a config change, so i *am* using the SMS input on the AVR.

as stated previously, zero extraneous noise when not actually on the SMS input (during config).

fsrenduro

02-23-10, 01:54 PM

This is what I read over at the Velodyne thread (I think). I have to admit that I had already gotten rid of my SMS when I read this. It's a 2 second effort to verify though so if someone can try it and let us know.

jsil

02-23-10, 03:19 PM

fsrenduro,
Thanks will do that and see what happens.

Maestro J

02-28-10, 07:27 PM

Hi guys...just picked up a used SMS-1 and I'm trying to get a game plan together for EQing my dual Epik Empires. The subs are on opposite L/R walls between the listening position and my screen. They were almost across from each other (within a few inches).

I'm using a Denon 4310ci which employs MultiEQ XT. It *sounded* like the XT was doing a pretty good job on this dual setup but the first graph with no EQing with the SMS revealed a huge cancellation between 15-24hz. The rest of the curve was fairly flat. I tried turning off the sub on the right wall and that flatted the FR considerably. I mean, a pretty nice flat curve with just the one sub running. It was registering right around 78db.

So at this point, I started messing around with placement. Of course, any placement change results in rerunning Audyssey and then adjusting the FR with the SMS. Now I've got the sub that was on the left wall under the screen between my left front and center speakers. The sub on right wall is in the same place. Cancellation still there, just not as severe. So after reading some threads, I decided to change the phase of the sub on the right wall to 180. Whoa. Now the cancellation is nearly gone but 30-40hz now has a substantial peak and my crossover has a slight dip.

So I guess I'm wondering is it best to have the 2nd sub stay out of phase and deal with this peak or should I go back to the position of the original sub that netted me a flat FR and just try stacking the 2nd sub on top of it to see if I can up the SPL while keeping that flat response?
Lugging these things around my room and then running these extensive calibrations is just taking so long. I'd like to just find a good solution and go with it and enjoy my system.
Any thoughts? Are there any other placement suggestions?

Oh and one other thing - I'm currently just using one of the LFE outputs and using a Y-splitter to split the signal to the 2 subs. Would I hear/see any difference using 2 of the LFE outputs and no Y-splitter?

craig john

02-28-10, 09:26 PM

So I guess I'm wondering is it best to have the 2nd sub stay out of phase and deal with this peak or should I go back to the position of the original sub that netted me a flat FR and just try stacking the 2nd sub on top of it to see if I can up the SPL while keeping that flat response?
I would keep the 2nd sub out-of phase, deal with the hump with EQ bands on the SMS-1 and then deal with the crossover dip by using the phase control on page 2 of the SMS-1. You can also try making slight changes to the subwoofer Distance setting in your receiver. (However, see my answer to your next question first.)

Lugging these things around my room and then running these extensive calibrations is just taking so long. I'd like to just find a good solution and go with it and enjoy my system. Any thoughts? Are there any other placement suggestions?
Turn Audyssey off, turn the EQ off in the SMS-1 and just use the SMS-1's OSD to find the best positions first. Then run Audyssey, and afterwards use the SMS-1 to flatten the resultant FR.

Oh and one other thing - I'm currently just using one of the LFE outputs and using a Y-splitter to split the signal to the 2 subs. Would I hear/see any difference using 2 of the LFE outputs and no Y-splitter?
No.

Craig

Maestro J

03-02-10, 09:31 AM

fsrenduro

03-02-10, 10:03 AM

If you have an SPL meter just hook your receiver directly to your sub and measure the level. Then add the SMS into the chain and adjust the volume on that until you match that level.

Maestro J

03-02-10, 10:53 AM

fquails

03-02-10, 11:31 AM

Quick question as I continue to play around with this thing...

If I set the volume on the SMS to 0 with my receiver volume set to whatever I want, does that give the same result as if the SMS was not in my chain? Basically the FR I'm seeing on my screen is what I would get if the SMS was not there?

Edit: Nope, volume at zero means no volume at all. Hmmm...

If I remember correctly, Velodyne told me that around 15 is the SMS's 'unity volume'. I believe that means at around 15, the volume from the receiver is the same as the volume leaving the SMS.

craig john

03-02-10, 01:16 PM

Quick question as I continue to play around with this thing...

If I set the volume on the SMS to 0 with my receiver volume set to whatever I want, does that give the same result as if the SMS was not in my chain? Basically the FR I'm seeing on my screen is what I would get if the SMS was not there?

Edit: Nope, volume at zero means no volume at all. Hmmm...
If you want to see the response with no filters involved, (as if the SMS-1 was not in the chain), use Preset #6. (However, be aware that any settings on Page 2 are active, even with Preset #6.)

Craig

craig john

03-02-10, 01:49 PM

After all the moving the Empires around and running graphs, it looks like the best placement for them is along the front soundstage. Kind of surprised me that it worked out this way but my room is unorthodox in that it's large and has an opening to another room.
What's "unorthodox" about that? My room is similar, as are many rooms used for HT's.
They ended up about 8 ft apart next to my 2 mains with the center in between them.
That's how my subs are placed as well.

FR is rather flat around 78db except for a dip of 6db around 70hz.
Try using the Phase Control on Page 2 to fix the dip at 70 Hz. It's likely caused by the sub and speakers being out of phase near the crossover point. The Phase Setting may be able to fix it.

What I'm trying to determine now is if I even need the SMS in the chain. I love that it gives me immediate feedback when I move subs and change the volume.
If you have flat response without the SMS-1's filters, you don't need it, although I highly douibt that's the case. Can you post a pic of the response curve with no filters set, (Preset #6)?

You stated you still have a dip at 70 Hz. If you have some other way to fix the response at 70 Hz, and you have flat response with no filters, you likely don't need the SMS-1. Try playing with the Distance Control in your receiver. It does a similar kind of adjustment as the Phase Setting in the SMS-1. If that fixes the problem, you can probably get by with just that. (If the Distance Control does fix the problem, let me know and I can probably help you remove the SMS-1 while retaining the same response. It's not as easy as simply removing the SMS-1, but it's a long explanation, and not worth the typing if it doesn't correct the problem.)

Craig

Maestro J

03-02-10, 02:39 PM

Here is my graph with sub distance set in my Denon at actual distance...

http://wisconsinperkins.smugmug.com/Other/Misc-loader/P1010306/801049859_vnQLA-M.jpg

No EQ applied.
I'll try to extend the distance out a bit to see if it helps with the minor dips/phasing.

What do you think, craig? Is this a decent curve to shoot for?

Edit: Here is the graph with sub distance set at 25ft (about 9 ft more than actual)
http://wisconsinperkins.smugmug.com/Other/Misc-loader/P1010307/801065679_AWQZk-M.jpg

craig john

03-02-10, 06:21 PM

Maestro J

03-02-10, 07:04 PM

The response looks better with the longer distance. However, what did Audyssey set the distance at? Was the SMS-1 in the circuit at the time? The SMS-1 adds a few milliseconds of latency, (it takes some time to do the processing.) As long as the SMS-1 is in the chain when Audyssey does it's thing, Audyssey will set the distance to account for the SMS-1 latency. Leave the distance that Audyssey set, even if it's several feet longer than the actual physical distance, and instead adjust the Phase in the SMS-1.

Here's what I do:

Set the SMS-1 to Preset 6, Phase to "0" and Audyssey EQ to Off.

Use the OSD to find the best locations in the room using the SMS-1 test tones with only the subs running, (speakers off). (Your current locations look pretty darn good. I would leave them where they are and try to "tweak" from there.)

After finding the optimal locations, turn on the speakers, run Audyssey at all 8 locations following the "Guide":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

After Audyssey has done it's thing, check the crossovers. If any speakers are set to "Large" or "Full Range" set appropriate crossovers on them. Do not change any of the Distance settings at this point.

Then set the SMS-1 to "Setup" and set the receiver to "Stereo".

Go to Page 2 of the SMS-1 and adjust the Phase control until the response around the crossover point of the L/R speakers and sub is as flat as possible, You'll need to flip back and forth between Page 1 and Page 2 to see the response as you adjust the Phase. You may find that the "0" position is best because Audyssey has already compensated for the latency and the physical distance and no more improvement is possible.

Then run a Manual EQ on the rest of frequency bandwidth.

I like to add a little boost on the bottom end to provide a bit of a "house curve", but that is purely personal preference. Also the benefit of this is based on the ability of the subs to increase their output down low. If you try adding boost and the increase in SPL at the boost frequency is not as great as the amount of boost added, don't add boost. IOW, if you add 3 dB of boost at 20 Hz and the level at 20 Hz only goes up 1 dB, don't add the boost.

Good luck and have fun!

Craig

Thanks so much for your help, Craig. I really appreciate it.

When I performed Audyssey EQ, the SMS-1 was in the chain but no EQ employed. Audyssey set my sub distance at 20ft, when in actuality it's more like 16ft. So I guess it took into account the latency you mentioned.
I forgot about that when I posted that first graph. That one is 20ft sub distance. The second graph is 25ft sub distance. So you are saying I should go back to 20ft and use the phase control on page 2? I can do that but I was actually hoping there was a way for Audyssey to be "good enough" and not use the SMS in the chain. I guess that's probably not a good idea based on what you see?
Also, my graph turned out much better at 80hz crossover instead of 60 which was where I started.

Also, what does volume control on the SMS really do? I mean, does it override the volume control on my Denon AVR? I set it to 1 as you can see from the graphs but when I tried to watch a few of my favorite bass demo scenes this afternoon, I could barely feel anything. If I have my Denon at -7.5 and the SMS at 1, is the SMS actually lowering my sub volume which is affecting what I hear and feel?

I tried going through the manual for answers but couldn't really find anything that addressed it.

craig john

03-02-10, 08:14 PM

Thanks so much for your help, Craig. I really appreciate it.

When I performed Audyssey EQ, the SMS-1 was in the chain but no EQ employed. Audyssey set my sub distance at 20ft, when in actuality it's more like 16ft. So I guess it took into account the latency you mentioned.
I forgot about that when I posted that first graph. That one is 20ft sub distance. The second graph is 25ft sub distance. So you are saying I should go back to 20ft and use the phase control on page 2?
Yes, that is the way I do it. However, both controls do similar things, so you can use either one. You are just looking for the flattest response around the crossover point. I like to do it my way because it allows Audyssey to compensate for the latency in the SMS-1.

I can do that but I was actually hoping there was a way for Audyssey to be "good enough" and not use the SMS in the chain. I guess that's probably not a good idea based on what you see?
You can try it without the SMS-1, and it might sound fine. Audyssey all by itself is pretty good. Your post Audyssey curve with no SMS-1 filters looks pretty decent, with no huge peaks or nulls. If you take the SMS-1 out, I would re-set the Distance to it's physical distance, then try adding a little distance in small increments, listening to your system to see if there is a setting you like better.
Also, my graph turned out much better at 80hz crossover instead of 60 which was where I started.
Then that's what I would stick with.
Also, what does volume control on the SMS really do? I mean, does it override the volume control on my Denon AVR? I set it to 1 as you can see from the graphs but when I tried to watch a few of my favorite bass demo scenes this afternoon, I could barely feel anything. If I have my Denon at -7.5 and the SMS at 1, is the SMS actually lowering my sub volume which is affecting what I hear and feel?

I tried going through the manual for answers but couldn't really find anything that addressed it.
The volume control on the SMS-1 raises the volume coming out of the SMS-1 for the subwoofer only. You want to use it to set the volume of the sub so it is close to the same level as the speakers.

"Unity Gain" is the setting of 15. At that setting the signal coming out of the SMS-1 is fairly level to the signal going in, at least without any filters set. The filters add boosts or cuts which can change the level of the overall signal and the Volume Control allows you to compensate for those boosts and cuts. When you start out at 15, and then set filters, if you add more boosts than cuts, you may need to reduce the Volume Control to compensate. If you use more cuts and little boost, you may want to raise the volume control to compensate.

You never want to set the Volume to "0", as you will have no signal coming out of the SMS-1, (hence why you felt almost no bass with the Volume at 0 or 1.) Try resetting it to 15 and see if the levels on the OSD from 80 Hz down are roughly equivalent to the levels above 80 Hz.

Craig

mak99

03-15-10, 01:39 PM

when it 'reboots' upon saving settings, i get some very subtle pops. at no other time however.
New SMS-1 owner here, with one main question - while running the setup sweeps per the Outlaw user guide last week, I keep getting two annoying "pops" from the speakers (L+R) when exiting various onscreen menus. Is this normal, or could I have a defective unit? I have until the end of this week to send this back for a direct replacement. Unit was brought brand new from authorized online dealer.

I have the SMS-1 connected to my Onkyo TX-SR805's VCR input (L+R audio and composite video), with HDMI output to the Pioneer 141 monitor.

Also, I'd prefer to have the SMS-1 connected to my receiver's switched outlet, instead of adding to my Harmony One account so that it powers up/down with all other gear (current setup). This preference is primarily due to the SMS-1 currently on the bottom shelf of my Synergy rack, mostly line-of-sight blocked by the cherry wood trim of the door. Does anyone see an issue with this? I'm not sure if the SMS-1 will remember the last input mode used (ie, #5 Custom) when powering up this way as opposed to powering up from the Standby mode.

Or should I relocate the SMS-1 so that it will receive commands via line-of-sight from the Harmony One?

Thanks in advance, and I'm sure to have more questions on how to get the max performance out of the SMS-1 for my system...

fsrenduro

03-15-10, 03:01 PM

mak99

03-15-10, 04:59 PM

I think the pops are typical as they happened to me too in that situation.

As for turning the SMS on/off I'd just leave it on 24/7. It uses very little power and is the best way to avoid turn on pops.
To clarify, I do not have pops when the SMS turns on/off. Only when saving/exiting from the second screen during the EQ exercises...

Sorry I did not clarify this in my earlier post... :o

fsrenduro

03-16-10, 01:33 PM

Even with your clarification I would give the exact same advice.:D

mak99

03-16-10, 02:41 PM

Even with your clarification I would give the exact same advice.:D
I talked to someone at Velodyne, and he said the pops should not be happening. I'll try connecting the EQ out to a different input on the amp and see if the pops still occur. If so, I'll send the SMs back for a replacement.

I noticed that when I was on the System Settings screen, I could barely here the test tone still repeating itself. Has anyone else noticed this also?

craig john

03-16-10, 02:56 PM

I talked to someone at Velodyne, and he said the pops should not be happening. I'll try connecting the EQ out to a different input on the amp and see if the pops still occur. If so, I'll send the SMs back for a replacement.

I noticed that when I was on the System Settings screen, I could barely here the test tone still repeating itself. Has anyone else noticed this also?
I don't have any "popping" either, so, if Velo says it's abnormal, I suspect there is a problem with your unit.

I *do* have the very low level test tones whenever the SMS-1 EQ output is connected. The tones are always present on the outputs, even when you're not performing the EQ. If your receiver/pre/pro has any low level "crosstalk" between inputs, you'll hear it, but only at *very* low levels. I disconnect the EQ outputs whenever I'm not performing the EQ procedure... problem, (slight as it is), solved.

The following is from the "Official" Velodyne Support thread. It is a response from curt c, the Velodyne support rep:

I did 2.1.3 today. Afterwards, I re-checked the EQ, made a few minor tweaks, saved the settings and exited. At that point, with no signal playing, I could still faintly hear the "sweeps" through the speakers, (but not the subs). At first, I thought it was all in my head... an acoustic memory from listening to the sweeps over and over. :confused::(

But then I realized it was a real sound. I turned the SMS-1 off, and it stopped... turned it back on... it came back. It was very faint in the room, but if you put your ear next to either the left or right speaker, it was definitely and clearly audible. I've never had this before. I ended up pulling the EQ Output cables out of the SMS-1, and then it stopped.

Is this "bleed-through" of the sweeps a normal part of the 2.1.3 Software Update? Will 2.1.4 correct this problem? I've always been able to leave the EQ output cables plugged in after running the EQ sweeps.

Craig

Hi,
Since there can be interactions with certain equipment, and the EQ output jacks are always hot (playing the sweep) when the SMS-1 is on, my recommedation is unplug the EQ cables from your receiver when they are not being used.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17194019&highlight=sms#post17194019

Craig