Hello
Look at these highlights.
http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2007/ceatec2007.pdf

They are showing 4k as rear projection and front projection. They will show HD100/RS2 as the new d-ila home theater projector.
What caught my intention is item number 4. A next generation high resolution display engine. Since 4k and 30000:1 d-ila technology are separate items I conclude no 4 is something else. Since I have recently learned that JVC has experimented with NHK on 4-panel technology, could this exhibit no4 be about a 4-panel display engine?

If you are going to CEATEC please look into this.
Perhaps Tom Stites can comment about what no4 is about?

ceatec is more a show to demo very new technology
that will hit the market in few years rather
than new almost ready products but there are always
exeptions.
so lets hope for a final 4k demo from jvc with
a PROTOTYPE and not as at cedia 07 with "desing sample"
that say almost nothing about the finished product.

W.Mayer
I doubt that the month separating Cedia and CEATEC is enough to transform what was shown at Cedia into what you would call a real prototype.

If JVC is looking into a 4-panel display engine I think that is great news even if it is not in a projector within a year.

The latest news about new JVC products is that a truly high end d-ila projector is likely to be lanched before next summer. I think it is more likely this product will be a brighter 1080p projector than a super high end 4k projector. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=908304

JVC should really develop a 2538 x 1080 chip so that 2.35 movies can be zoomed and scaled using the full chip resolution without having to bother with an anamorphic lens.

its not the 4 weeks timing between the shows its
because this 2 shows are very different.

my guess is that because they talk about the " engine" can also
mean new electronic chips for picture processing.
very likely for 4k pr.
if that is the case its a big improvement for 4k pr.

to give 4k a big push it is necessary to feed
this 4k content
with one or 2 cable(not 4) and so far i know
this new standart is coming soon.

JVC should really develop a 2538 x 1080 chip so that 2.35 movies can be zoomed and scaled using the full chip resolution without having to bother with an anamorphic lens.

While I'm not so sure I'd want to buy a JVC offering since they can't seem to get their act together regarding colors, I strongly agree there is a huge market that hasn't been realized for such products. I'm amazed someone hasn't tapped into it yet... I would be very interested in such technology.

W.Mayer
Any "4" thingy in that engine would be good news.

- 4k processing
or
- 4-panel d-ila
Both would be great :D

About 4 -panel led or laser :D now that would be amazing

I think laser won't be for the public

JVC should do this:
2K HD100 with 2000lumens (large HT screens, white living rooms)

4K with 50,000:1 panels and 12,000 lumens for medium size theaters (up to say 15meters scope screens)

keep working on ansi contrast. i suppose with doubling the on off ansi will rise also to some extent.

audivision clocked the dila hd1, epson TW1000 at 300:1 (dlp at around 600:1)
perhaps HD100 will rise to 400:1

keep working on ansi contrast. i suppose with doubling the on off ansi will rise also to some extent.

Its really strange. My three chip DLP has great ANSI and it makes everything look so real. When you watch something long enough you get use to it. I now cry for more ANSI, I cant get enough.
I am happy with the on/off and would give up seeing further improvement in on/off in trade for more ANSI but of course improvement across the board would be best but if only one then I will take ANSI.

it depends on the screen: a dlp on a scope screen so you never see "black" grey bars, no problem and ansi rules
if you have a hdtv typical screen, then you do want to have black bars and on off rules.

that's the best i could it up between the two.

now intra-scene dailight moments in a movie it depends a lot on the content. some dvd and hd are flat by themselves (the way the film was shot) and some shine no matter the technology. take TEARS OF THE SUN or even some scenes of ROMANCING THE SONE: lots of depth, deep contrast, sparkling whites. same with HIGH CRIMES.
dlp does better if the film lacks contrast by itself. it will then look flatter with lcos

dlp can indeed produce a shining brilliance that lcos can't yet. even crt couldn't btw....

but again the screen aspect ratio plays a big part !!

Digital2004
I have a theory it is the pixel to pixel contrast that gives a dlp its character that many like. The reason dlp has good ANSI cr is that dlp has excellent pixel to pixel contrast. My message to you is that you should ask for improved pixel to pixel contrast from d-ila. I seriously doubt there can be any revolution there with 3-panel d-ila. Lasers are said to increase contrast at high spatial frequncies with d-ila.
There are three ways to better pixel to pixel contrast.
1 laser illumination
2 4-panel d-ila
3 1 and 2

My prediction is that 3DLP and 4-panel lcos will fight for supremacy in high end home theater in the future. At least if we talk about the <3000 ANSI lumen market.

Its strange how contrast works. Here I am crying for more ANSI, I recently spent time with a CRT FP and the ANSI was very low but the overall contrast is so good you do not notice the lack of ANSI and I could live with this. It was so clean and smooth I could sit right on top of the image. No digital projector comes close as far being able to sit as close because of the noise the digital machines combined with 8 bit digital connections reveal. Get to close to an image projected from a digital display and you see stuff moving all over the place. Scary.

Alan G.
What do you think about my pixel to pixel contrast theory.

Dlp has great pixel to pixel contrast in spite of having a constan lighting hitting the entire dmd.

Crt could have rather good "pixel" to "pixel" contrast ratio since the electron gun go very quickly from full blast to a very low base level. However the crt has poor light scatter control which results in a very low ANSI contrast.

To get great pixel to pixel contrast with lcos 4-panel technology could be the way to go.

Mattias

I agree with you. It is sad there is all this new technology waiting out there but none of it is coming to market any time soon. We have been talking about this stuff for years and I think two more years or longer we will still be watching the tiny increments of improvement with only DLP and Lcos. I think TI and Lcos have such a jump on the market and cost and are proven technologies that it will be hard for any new technology to compete in price to gain any share of the market worth jumping into. Especially seeing as the FP market is already a very tiny slice for most manufactures.

Its strange how contrast works. Here I am crying for more ANSI, I recently spent time with a CRT FP and the ANSI was very low but the overall contrast is so good you do not notice the lack of ANSI and I could live with this. It was so clean and smooth I could sit right on top of the image. No digital projector comes close as far being able to sit as close because of the noise the digital machines combined with 8 bit digital connections reveal. Get to close to an image projected from a digital display and you see stuff moving all over the place. Scary.

mosquito noise reducer can help. the best ones i mean.
3DLP has less noise than1DLP
DILA is quite clean i'd say (no dithering)
but CRT is really great and indeed with massive on off and low ansi no one ever complained. i'm very curious to see the HD100.
Matthias: imho too 4th panel will be the next lcos revolution

Its strange how contrast works. Here I am crying for more ANSI, I recently spent time with a CRT FP and the ANSI was very low but the overall contrast is so good you do not notice the lack of ANSI and I could live with this. .
Hear, hear... :)
Now if we just could have it all...

it depends on the screen: a dlp on a scope screen so you never see "black" grey bars, no problem and ansi rules
if you have a hdtv typical screen, then you do want to have black bars and on off rules.

I need no stinking 'black' bars to see if the black is black or not. :D Seriously, just because there is picture everywhere you can't suddenly ignore black levels. They show up as grey as before when APL goes down.

well the absence of the grey bars helps a bit the impression :D

Alan G.
What do you think about my pixel to pixel contrast theory.

Dlp has great pixel to pixel contrast in spite of having a constan lighting hitting the entire dmd.

Crt could have rather good "pixel" to "pixel" contrast ratio since the electron gun go very quickly from full blast to a very low base level. However the crt has poor light scatter control which results in a very low ANSI contrast.

To get great pixel to pixel contrast with lcos 4-panel technology could be the way to go.

Does any one know what is the maximum Ansi contrast a human being can see

thats depends on the viewing angle of your eye.
at the corner its different compare to the center.

i am not sure but 1200:1 range if i remember right.

some dlps are already very good in ansi cr.

just waitn see

well the absence of the grey bars helps a bit the impression

Absolutely. I currently have a 16x9 screen in my theater and there is a big difference in the percieved image contrast with a scope movie when I have the grey bars masked off as opposed to the image when I don't have the bars masked off. The masked off image has more "pop" to it.

To get great pixel to pixel contrast with lcos 4-panel technology could be the way to go.


Ohlson, can you tell me something more about this LCOS 4-panel technlogy ?
Why 4 panel ?

thanks
Emanuele

4-panel lcos is a principle that is currently only used in the simulation market by a company called SEOS. i HOPE that this principle is applied to home theater projectors in the future.

Example
You want one bright pixel surrounded by only black pixels. Due to light scatter the pixels surrounding the bright pixel are not black. If you apply one more polarizing agen, a lcos panel, to turn all scattered light to the state that is blocked before exiting the lens you can get the bright pixel and very black surrounding pixels. The principle has practical limitations but it is working.

it will be interesting to
know how much that will decrease the light out?

that system should improve the ansi cr.!

i hope i will know
end of next week if the black frame function from the upcomming sony vw 200
have a effect for ansi cr. or not.

W.Mayer
Naturally efficiency woudl go down with 4-panel lcos but as I see it you can optimize for brightness with the first step of the modulation, the rgb panels. Then the extra panel will give great contrast since the effect is multiplicative. Hopefully light output would be good enough.
I hope JVC will try to implement 4-panel lcos.

i think lcos already have enough on off cr. with or without iris
but lcos need to do somthing about ansi cr.

so that can be one way to improve ansi cr.
we all dont know how much light is the trad off but lets see how good
the sony vw200 is with dark frame at ansi cr. and if how much
is the improvment.
that also drop light out for sure.

W.Mayer
My understanding is the dfi is only used to let our brain perceive smoother motion from a lcd based technology affected by the sample and hold effect.

If frames 123 go like this
111111112222222233333333 the sudden transition from 1>2 and 2>3 jerks up the perceived motion for the brain.

111111bb222222bb333333
The transitions are ..11>bb>22.. and ..22>bb>33..
The black pause is good for our perception.
Each letter or number represent a unit of time.

As I understand it vw200 will have a mode which inserts a gamma maniplulated semi dark frame. This could help improve shadow detail could it not?

In a few days we will hopefully get reports about what JVC is showing at CEATEC.

No disclosure of a 4k video processing solution as item number four. That presentation was about improved hdrv processing with true 12 bits per rgb. Lots of detail is available at the JVC press page.
4k processing must be developed as the 4k projector turns into a product. Perhaps someone asked about this at CEATEC?

I guess both 4-panel technology and lasers are reserved for the laboratory.

The answer is here:

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071005/140279/

Victor Company of Japan Ltd. exhibited a projector with the display pixel count of 4096 x 2400 at CEATEC Japan 2007, which runs from Oct. 2 to 6, 2007.

Supporting the so-called 4K x 2K resolution, the new projector has an enhanced definition compared with the company's existing 4096 x 2160 model, Victor said. The projector can throw a 200-inch picture from about 7 m away. The contrast ratio without an iris mechanism is 10,000:1, and the luminance is 3,500 lm

good catch the first picture i can see
from the 4k jvc!
now jvc need to put hdcp on and increase the ansi cr. to
at least 400:1.

mattias
here you can read about my speculation that the new sony vw 200
may have better ansi cr. with dark frame.

may your thread about "should sony cancel the vw 200" is
at least a little bit true:)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916723