So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.

I suspect that the majority of people around here that are not buying the HD DVD version don't own an HD DVD player...

Although I would have preferred a lossless track, I am definitely planning on picking this movie up.

Simple. Just rent it until a disc is released with a lossless track.

That is what I will be doing.

This just isn't a big deal for me personally and I'll be picking up the HD DVD version.

Dolby used the example of the King Kong DD+ track on the HD DVD and its many critics comments on how good it was as an example of HD audio at its booth at CEDIA.

KK was DD+ and it was critically aclaimed enough for Dolby Labs to brag about it at that Denver trade show to home theater installers and the AV trade press.

Transformers DD+ will sound great.

I would have preferrerd Dobly True HD lossless but DD+ is going to sound better than any DVD audio soundtrack ever did.

I will wait for reviews of the DD+ track, and decide based on that.

I can easily wait for the double dip to come out that may have a lossless track. The movie (content) is not good enough on it's own for me to purchase just based on that.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.

First in line to buy. I got an all-in-one surround sound stereo connected to my TV. It was about $399 6 years ago. Don't need lossless nor do I care.

It's all about the PQ which I can't wait to enjoy on Transformers.

Dolby used the example of the King Kong DD+ track on the HD DVD and its many critics comments on how good it was as an example of HD audio at its booth at CEDIA.

KK was DD+ and it was critically aclaimed enough for Dolby Labs to brag about it at that Denver trade show to home theater installers and the AV trade press.

Transformers DD+ will sound great.

I would have preferrerd Dobly True HD lossless but DD+ is going to sound better than any DVD audio soundtrack ever did.

The "King Kong" DD+ soundtrack didn't sound particularly "reference level" to me. I was actually pretty disappointed with it. "Transformers" wasn't a particular great movie for me either (though I've some friends who really enjoyed it). I'll wait and scoop it up when there is a version with a lossless audio track on it.

I suspect a possible strategy with Warners, Paramount, Universal. "milk" the early adopters with the POS versions of the movies, than get them later with the doubledip on special edition/director's cuts (e.g. "Troy").

First in line to buy. I got an all-in-one surround sound stereo connected to my TV. It was about $399 6 years ago. Don't need lossless nor do I care.

It's all about the PQ which I can't wait to enjoy on Transformers.have you heard it before? (a great system, that is?)

I'm buying both.

have you heard it before? (a great system, that is?)

"But everyone tells me they sound the same" :D

Guessing that most who buy the HD DVD version may actully not care about the lack of lossless audio or even have the sound systems (or bionic ears) to hear the difference. More concerned with giant robots in pretty HD video--which may drive some major HD DVD unit sales this XMAS.

I could give a flying fish about lossless, it won't even enter my decision.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.

4 year old son? seriously? wow.

I'd like to see some double blind ABX comparisons that prove just how great lossless is in relation to Dolby Digital that provides 320 kbps per channel. They are nonexistent thus far. If I'm incorrect, please point me in the right direction.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.

No surprise. :rolleyes:

Pretty funny thread. The BR fans say no and the HD DVD fans say yes.

My bet is that for people who want to own the movie, they will buy it with DD+.

One point that has been missed is 99% of people do not even have a system that supports lossless audio. So if half of the other 1% do not buy it, big deal!:D

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.

Most of the dissenters are BLu only owners anyway, who cares wether they buy it, or critisize a movie that they cannot get in BD format or not?
They cannot get it on BR so they are peed off.:D
DD+ is HD and it is strong enough for me, just like the AQ of "Serenity" was. PQ is the most vital part of the HD experience for me.

I already ordered 2 copies myself.:p

One of the best soundtracks I've heard on HD was from We Were Soldiers, and that is not Lossless. As long as the Mix is done right, I could care less if it's lossless or not. I'll be getting the HD DVD and enjoying it in my Home Theater room, and if the neighbours start complaining that I'm shaking the building, they can come and join me in watching it too.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.

When did you buy an HD DVD player?:rolleyes:

You are buying it in SD DVD because you cannot get it on Blu-ray, accept that, and move on.

One of the best soundtracks I've heard on HD was from We Were Soldiers, and that is not Lossless. As long as the Mix is done right, I could care less if it's lossless or not. I'll be getting the HD DVD and enjoying it in my Home Theater room, and if the neighbours start complaining that I'm shaking the building, they can come and join me in watching it too.

+1 :D

I'd like to see everyone who refuses to buy a title because it has no lossless audio take part in the DBT being done by scaesare.

See thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909957

Buy the SD DVD?

This is madness!

"The look and ?? what of perfect"?? This is supposed to be high definition Video and Audio if you buy this you are setting the standard for garbage for top movies!

Waiting for my Onkyo 905 so I do not have True HD capability yet, but in an imaginary world, if I had a choice of HD DVD with DD+ vs SD with True HD, I would pick the HD DVD without hesitation.

One of the best soundtracks I've heard on HD was from We Were Soldiers, and that is not Lossless. As long as the Mix is done right, I could care less if it's lossless or not. I'll be getting the HD DVD and enjoying it in my Home Theater room, and if the neighbours start complaining that I'm shaking the building, they can come and join me in watching it too.

My sentiments exactly.

People obsess WAY too much over technical specs on this board.

"The look and ?? what of perfect"?? This is supposed to be high definition Video and Audio if you buy this you are setting the standard for garbage for top movies!

You know that DD+ is a High Defenition codec right???? It's not the same DD found on DVDs.

Try harder.

My sentiments exactly.

People obsess WAY too much over technical specs on this board.

This is the audio and video sciences... we should obsess over these things... cutting edge is what this place is about not last generation options in todays hi-def players.

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.


I suspect that these people are either:

1. lying

2. trying to get some attention for themselves

or

3. don't own an HD DVD player and are trying to convince themselves that the lack of a "lossless" is a deal breaker. There is a high bit rate DD+ audio track, which most people are failing to remember through all of the bitching is an HD audio format. TrueHD/PCM or not, Transformers on HD DVD will sound incredible.

You know that DD+ is a High Defenition codec right???? It's not the same DD found on DVDs.

Try harder.

I'm not going to get in the dd+ versus the other but there is a reason they released a lossless and it was because it is better!

Yep another lossless thread. OK, dont have have a receiver that can handle it. OK, DD+ is a step up from SD and before HD I never complained about SD audio. OK, just have average ears that hear sound.

In lossy compression, codecs throw out frequencies outside the range of human hearing—roughly 20Hz to 20,000 Hz. So lossy for starters @ 1.5MBs still includes other frequencies that would be audible on their own but become virtually imperceptible in the presence of other sounds.

I find it very curious that so many are up in arms about this and these "No Lossless?" threads are still popping up. Enjoy the movie!

This is the audio and video sciences... we should obsess over these things... cutting edge is what this place is about not last generation options in todays hi-def players.

So are you the kind of person that always looks at the world through a camera Lens when traveling to a new exotic place instead of taking a step back and enjoying the scenary?

Lossless = Overrated.

Who would wait to buy a movie for lossless?? IF you can tell the difference it means you can afford to drop 10k-20k+ on audio equipment and shouldn't worry about a $27 movie.

It smells like sour grapes in here...

This is the audio and video sciences... we should obsess over these things... cutting edge is what this place is about not last generation options in todays hi-def players.


DD+ is not a last generation option.

You're right: This is abotu audio and video sciences. Which means you should know you can't evaluate a product on specs alone.

I'd like to see some double blind ABX comparisons that prove just how great lossless is in relation to Dolby Digital that provides 320 kbps per channel. They are nonexistent thus far. If I'm incorrect, please point me in the right direction.

Just locate a friend/store who will have a DTS HD MA-capable setup and A/B the DTS core (lossy) track and the DTS HD MA soundtrack on virtually every Fox movie. That will give you some idea of the differences (if any).

Some of the DD+ soundtracks on titles I have are outstanding, such as World Trade Center. I have no doubt that DD+ on the Transformers HD DVD will be even more striking. No worries here.

yup, it's a nonissue.

To those with looking at the world thru Blu-tinged glasses, I again offer you:

http://www.listening-tests.info/mf-128-1/resultsz.png
with 5 being transparent or undetectable from the original. Fast forward through 2 more years of psychoacoustic algorithm improvements, double the bandwidth and tell me just how necessary lossless is.

If I had an HD DVD player I'd still buy. I understand some are happy with DVD quality sound and only care about PQ, then again some don't care about either and DVD is fine overall. Some say lossless if over-rated, some say 1080p is over-rated, some say 720p is over-rated. We all have our preferences.


I'm a huge fan of both PQ and AQ and I wish they'd provide the better audio track. Sometimes you don't get everythign you want and you decide if you want to settle.

I'd like to see some double blind ABX comparisons that prove just how great lossless is in relation to Dolby Digital that provides 320 kbps per channel. They are nonexistent thus far. If I'm incorrect, please point me in the right direction.

The Troy DC cut reviews on HD DVD compared the two codecs and favor the TrueHD tracks. One example:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=262041

have you heard it before? (a great system, that is?)


I used to be in the business and routinely listened to systems that cost more than most people would spend on a nice new automobile.

Having said that, such enthusiasts make up a miniscule percentage of the population and a very small percentage of AVS members.

It's also a game of diminishing returns, people spending thousands for tiny, sometimes imperceptible improvements that they would be hard pressed to identify in blind A/B tests.

While we should always 'strive for the best', I certainly don't feel that a very small audio gain (that most won't benefit from) is worth putting up with all of BDs other baggage.

DD+ 1.5 tracks sound very good bordering on reference quality if done correctly. I certainly won't be hesitating on picking this one up.

have you heard it before? (a great system, that is?)

I don't know for sure about lossless, but I've heard many a great system. Systems that I wont be in any position to afford anytime soon. I have several friends with far too much money on their hands for their own good.

Lossy is just A-OK with me. I can't take advantage of it anyways (probably like 80% of the buying public)

If I did have that kind of money to spend, i'd likely buy a SeaDoo or something instead. A $500-$1000 sound system would do me just fine. (In the future) -- right now my el chepo still sounds great and better than what a lot of my friends who come over for movies have.

Again, PQ trumps everything for me.

Just locate a friend/store who will have a DTS HD MA-capable setup and A/B the DTS core (lossy) track and the DTS HD MA soundtrack on virtually every Fox movie. That will give you some idea of the differences (if any).
Thanks for that. I'd have to be sure to do it blindly with the help of a third party, don't want my bias getting in the way. ;)

I find it very curious that so many are up in arms about this and these "No Lossless?" threads are still popping up. Enjoy the movie!

I agree, I mean I understand why many guys HERE, on an enthusiast site cry about specs and what not, makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the average consumer, the people who are gonna determine the winner in the format war, just won't...even myself, an average HT guy, hardly a fanatic anyway - owner of a mid grade 96/24 DTS 5.1 receiver\amp system with Sony speakers, sub, etc, don't even fire it up half the time, depends on the movie I suppose, but half the time I find myself just turning on the TV\HD DVD player and that's it.

As for Transformers, silly question, OF COURSE most HD DVD owners are gonna buy it as is! :)

Lossless = Overrated.

Who would wait to buy a movie for lossless?? IF you can tell the difference it means you can afford to drop 10k-20k+ on audio equipment and shouldn't worry about a $27 movie.

It smells like sour grapes in here...I (as a big supporter of HD DVD) would only buy Transformers as demo material. The content of the movie is not good enough for me to MUST HAVE. I would be willing to spend the money on it though, if it has lossless audio.

I must have "bionic ears" because I can tell the difference and I don't have a 10k audio setup. I have always been good at noticing the dynamics of sound. DD+ sounds fantastic when compared to DD, but lossless is even more dynamic (to my hearing). I am not a "spec whore"; I have no idea what bitrate tracks are running at

Brianmonkey, quoted from that Troy review:
but if one has the capability the Dolby TrueHD track is preferable for its wider soundstage and greater channel separation.
This sounds almost subjective to me and could easily be placebo or bias rearing its head if the claim is not substantiated with the proper blind testing methodology.

I was disappointed in the lack of lossless audio too, but I'm sure it'll still sound amazing.

To my ears DD+ is a big step up from DD, and I can't really hear the difference between DD+ and True HD. IMHO, the DD+ audio on King Kong was breathtaking.

4 year old son? seriously? wow.

Oh CRAP. I am trying to decide whether to get an HD-DVD player and the Transformers movie or just get the SD DVD for my son’s “4th“ birthday! Technically he will still be 3 when I give it to him on the 16th(2 days before his birthday).

Yea I know the movie is way to scary for a 4 year old. I plan on editing out all of the scary scenes and recompiling it back into a “PG” edited version. I know I can do this losslessly in SD DVD format. However, I am not sure if I can in HD-DVD format. Maybe my decision has already been made for me!

Regardeless of what we all think here, this movie will sell more copies than 300, it is PG13 vs R, and is a great Christmas Gift. Don't kid yourself that by being 1 or 100 people boycotting the movie because it doesn't have loseless that you will be making a difference. This movie will sell like hotcakes and will sell hardware to boot, period.

If I did have that kind of money to spend, i'd likely buy a SeaDoo or something instead. A $500-$1000 sound system would do me just fine. (In the future) -- right now my el chepo still sounds great and better than what a lot of my friends who come over for movies have.

Again, PQ trumps everything for me.shouldn't you be on the SeaDoo Forum then:p j/k:p

I'm not talking about spending exorbident amounts of money. Just a system that is capable and calibrated properly. The difference between a simple HTiB for $250 and $5k system are leaps and bounds. After that, you start getting into the diminishing returns that jmpage2 was talking about.

Rental!!

Oh CRAP. I am trying to decide whether to get an HD-DVD player and the Transformers movie or just get the SD DVD for my son’s “4th“ birthday! Technically he will still be 3 when I give it to him on the 16th(2 days before his birthday).

Yea I know the movie is way to scary for a 4 year old. I plan on editing out all of the scary scenes and recompiling it back into a “PG” edited version. I know I can do this losslessly in SD DVD format. However, I am not sure if I can in HD-DVD format. Maybe my decision has already been made for me!

Yikes.

Rental!!

But if it was available on BD you'd buy 3?

But if it was available on BD you'd buy 3?

Buy? He'd be pimping it out like there's no tomorrow, lo! :D

Transformers = No Lossless. What will you buy instead? The SD DVD?
Buy the SD copy? :D Absurd idea.

Buy? He'd be pimping it out like there's no tomorrow, lo! :D
Exactly, bunch of manure being spread here.

I'd love to see a double blind HD vs DD test - I'd bet 99.9999% of the folks here fail, regardless of the BS they toss around.

Just like this (http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx)

Brianmonkey, quoted from that Troy review:

This sounds almost subjective to me and could easily be placebo or bias rearing its head if the claim is not substantiated with the proper blind testing methodology.


Tell us more about your set up such that you can make such a claim off the top of your head.....

Most better reviewers have ample experience with lossless vs lossy tracks.... FilmMixer, though no reviewer, is one such person.. Bottom line, as with some reviwers, if you know what to listen for, there are differences.

... you can make such a claim off the top of your head.....

I fail to see that he made any claim at all. He simply said that the validity of the claims of "those with the golden ears" might not hold up against a true double blind test as well as they think...

4 year old son? seriously? wow.

Yes, that surprises me too. seems a bit scary for a 4 year old to watch, especially by himself? (sounds like he will since it is in 'his room')

Tell us more about your set up such that you can make such a claim off the top of your head.....

Most better reviewers have ample experience with lossless vs lossy tracks.... FilmMixer, though no reviewer, is one such person.. Bottom line, as with some reviwers, if you know what to listen for, there are differences.


You may want to make sure you have FilmMixer's opinion correct before using him. He has said the difference is minimal.

I think it's funny the almost predictable answers in this thread.

Another provocative thread by a BD supporter perhaps? More like another stupid petulant thread. Buy the SD DVD version of Transformers because the HD version does not have lossless audio? This is just plain stupidity. Lock this thread down before people start to say what they think about the OP and not the topic.

I'll be picking this up, no worries. (although I havent seen the movie so it will be a blind buy) There's still a LOT being discussed with regards to lossy Vs lossless, right here on these forums. I guess that argument will rage on and on....
For me? Sure, I'd love there to be a Dolby True HD, or DTS-MA track on this title. Will I hear a difference...? I dont know for sure. But I wont be forgoing possibly a great release just because it has just a DD+ track, I think that would be a little shallow of me!:) I'm really looking forward to seeing this movie, the 1st time, in High Defintion, in my very own home.:)
Steve.

I fail to see that he made any claim at all. He simply said that the validity of the claims of "those with the golden ears" might not hold up against a true double blind test as well as they think...
Amen, my sentiments to the "T." The subjective claims made by anyone on such matters, no matter their credentials or how accustomed they may be to subtle nuances, don't hold much weight if not held up to the scrutiny of science. Simply being aware of the fact that one is hearing lossless can cloud judgement and even make one imagine they're hearing differences that aren't present. This is a scientific fact....whether or not that above Troy reviewer was affected by it is another story but is a point to consider.

I think it's funny the almost predictable answers in this thread.

There's at least a whiff in the air to say the least, I mean the OP seems to understand clearly that this is an HD DVD exclusive movie, yet we have this thread thrown up here instead of in the HD DVD software area...hmmmm. If you want yet another debate on the lossless audio stuff, just say so, no need to camoflauge it while using any particular movie as a prop...

I'd like to see some double blind ABX comparisons that prove just how great lossless is in relation to Dolby Digital that provides 320 kbps per channel. They are nonexistent thus far. If I'm incorrect, please point me in the right direction.

I compared the DD and DTS tracks from the IMAX standard definition DVDs to the WMA pro 9.1 tracks on the WMV HD DVDs the other day. There was no comparison between the DD and the WMA pro tracks. It was like going from analog stereo to DTS. It got to the point where I actually couldn’t stand to listen to the DD tracks anymore because I knew how much better the WMA ones were.

However, the DTS tracks were hard to tell apart from the WMA pro counterparts. They sounded virtually identical. There were some very subtle differences but I really had to listen carefully to detect them.

I tested this using an HTPC with analog optical outputs to a 5.1 receiver, a Rotel amplifier, and some medium/high end ERA D4 speakers.

So the real question is not “Is Lossless better than DD+”. It is actually “Is DD unbearable when compared to DD+”. I sure wish they had done DTS on the SD DVD and DD+ on the HD-DVD. Then the DVD would be a little more attractive.

But if it was available on BD you'd buy 3?

Would it have a lossless track? If not, I don't buy it on either format.

Rental until the inevitable double-dip with lossless.

I suspect a possible strategy with Warners, Paramount, Universal. "milk" the early adopters with the POS versions of the movies, than get them later with the doubledip on special edition/director's cuts (e.g. "Troy").
All the studios do it - that's part of the business model. Fox is the worst at it - highest prices, no extras. :rolleyes:

Another provocative thread by a BD supporter perhaps? More like another stupid petulant thread. Buy the SD DVD version of Transformers because the HD version does not have lossless audio? This is just plain stupidity. Lock this thread down before people start to say what they think about the OP and not the topic.

Yep another lossless thread. OK, dont have have a receiver that can handle it. OK, DD+ is a step up from SD and before HD I never complained about SD audio. OK, just have average ears that hear sound.

I find it very curious that so many are up in arms about this and these "No Lossless?" threads are still popping up. Enjoy the movie!

Actually, I am an HD-DVD supporter but I reserve the right to be neutral if the combo players get below $500. I think you all are missing the point of the thread. My question is not really “Is lossless better than DD+?”. My question is “If you insist on lossless are you going to just wait or are you going to drop all the way down to DD instead?”.

I have a choice to make. I can jump into HD-DVD now when it is still relatively expensive or I can just keep buying SD DVDs until the price drops. I would like to know if the difference between DD and DD+ is going to be worth the $500-600 I will have to spend(HD-DVD player plus HDMI receiver).

I'm going to buy the movie and I don't care about lossless. I think my sound is great and I have an xbox addon and a cheap sony surround system. I think DTS on SD sounds great.

If they lied about this title having lossless and no software or device exposed the truth I don't think anyone would be able to tell. period. At over 1mbps just for sound? No way.

I wonder if the lossless bigots can tell the difference between lossless video and AVC H.264 with their eyes? Oh wait a minute, its OK to compress video but not audio?

I have a choice to make. I can jump into HD-DVD now when it is still relatively expensive or I can just keep buying SD DVDs until the price drops. I would like to know if the difference between DD and DD+ is going to be worth the $500-600 I will have to spend(HD-DVD player plus HDMI receiver).put that way...
hell yes it's worth it

Is everyone going to particpate in scaesare's second test?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909957
It should be fun stuff.

If Transformers was music I would care about lossless, I hate compressed audio for MUSIC.

For movies I honestly could care less about lossless or not.Music tends to be a lot more complex, emotional and to me needs to sound as good as possible and not be lossy.

Movie soundtracks need loud bass, clear understandable dialog, and good surround effects.

Purchasing Transformers on HD DVD has got to be one of the easiest "decisions" I've made all year. Without a doubt, no thought necessary...Transformers on HD DVD in 3 weeks...:D

I agree, I mean I understand why many guys HERE, on an enthusiast site cry about specs and what not, makes sense, but it doesn't matter to the average consumer, the people who are gonna determine the winner in the format war, just won't...even myself, an average HT guy, hardly a fanatic anyway - owner of a mid grade 96/24 DTS 5.1 receiver\amp system with Sony speakers, sub, etc, don't even fire it up half the time, depends on the movie I suppose, but half the time I find myself just turning on the TV\HD DVD player and that's it.

As for Transformers, silly question, OF COURSE most HD DVD owners are gonna buy it as is! :)

If this is true, and people don't care about minute difference in specs.. well then that should tell you something about the likely outcome of this war given where we are today with content.

If Transformers was music I would care about lossless, I hate compressed audio for MUSIC.

For movies I honestly could care less about lossless or not.Music tends to be a lot more complex, emotional and to me needs to sound as good as possible and not be lossy.

Movie soundtracks need loud bass, clear understandable dialog, and good surround effects.you know there is music in films right:p

music may be more complex, but I still think film tracks are more dynamic. 5.1 is a must for films, but not for music IMO. encompassing sound (directions) matters more in film. this makes lossless more important for films

put that way...
hell yes it's worth it

That answers my question. Purchase made! My 3 year old(soon to be 4) thanks you! I guess Toshiba thanks you as well!

Regardeless of what we all think here, this movie will sell more copies than 300, it is PG13 vs R, and is a great Christmas Gift. Don't kid yourself that by being 1 or 100 people boycotting the movie because it doesn't have loseless that you will be making a difference. This movie will sell like hotcakes and will sell hardware to boot, period.

Your saying Transformers in hddvd will sell more than 300 in both formats??? IF that is what you are saying then you are silly. But yes it will sell more between dvd and hddvd than 300 sold period.

Your saying Transformers in hddvd will sell more than 300 in both formats??? IF that is what you are saying then you are silly. But yes it will sell more between dvd and hddvd than 300 sold period.

I think he meant HD DVD transformers sells more copies than HD DVD 300.

That answers my question. Purchase made! My 3 year old(soon to be 4) thanks you! I guess Toshiba thanks you as well!
if it were only Transformers, then the answer would be different. but there are so many great films (only) available on HD DVD.

the upgrade is well worth it

That answers my question. Purchase made! My 3 year old(soon to be 4) thanks you! I guess Toshiba thanks you as well!


Are you really that proud of showing a PG13 (edited or not) to your little kid?

I'm having weird flashbacks to playing Battlefield 2142 with a bunch of swearing 20 and 30 something year old men and all of a sudden having some little 5 year old voice pipe up as some guy put his son into a game full of blood and guts.

If Transformers was music I would care about lossless, I hate compressed audio for MUSIC.

For movies I honestly could care less about lossless or not.Music tends to be a lot more complex, emotional and to me needs to sound as good as possible and not be lossy.

Movie soundtracks need loud bass, clear understandable dialog, and good surround effects.

There's a chance I'll buy more HD music videos than HD movies because I already have a lot of the HD movies on DVD. In contrast, the era of music videos with high def video and high resolution (24/96 or better) is just getting started and I'm chompin at the bit to get them.

you know there is music in films right:p

music may be more complex, but I still think film tracks are more dynamic. 5.1 is a must for films, but not for music IMO. encompassing sound (directions) matters more in film. this makes lossless more important for films
That really depends on the music. This release is an absolute marvel in 5.1: http://www.discogs.com/release/769487

I could give a flying fish about lossless, it won't even enter my decision.

Ditto.:cool:

I wasn't going to buy Transformers, lossless or no lossless, exclusive or no exclusive. So saying I am boycotting it would be like me boycotting boiled artichokes (ick). ;)

"The look and ?? what of perfect"?? This is supposed to be high definition Video and Audio if you buy this you are setting the standard for garbage for top movies!

Oh, yeah.... "garbage." Yeah, that's right!:rolleyes:

Disappointed that there is no TrueHD track, but you bet I'll be picking it up the day of it's release.

You ask an interesting question. Will people buy the SD DVD instead of the HD DVD because of lossless audio?

I suspect no because people here like HD over SD, and most people here agree that DD+ 1.5 mbps is better than DD 448 kbps.

Ironically the people who can't get the HD DVD version are the ones who are screaming the most about the lossless audio and they might end up with the SD DVD with the 480i/p + DD 448 kbps.

No big deal at all. I swear more people care about specs more than the entertainment of the movie. If you don't buy this because it doesn't have lossless the more power to you.

You ask an interesting question. Will people buy the SD DVD instead of the HD DVD because of lossless audio?

I suspect no because people here like HD over SD, and most people here agree that DD+ 1.5 mbps is better than DD 448 kbps.

Ironically the people who can't get the HD DVD version are the ones who are screaming the most about the lossless audio and they might end up with the SD DVD with the 480i/p + DD 448 kbps.

I've already retired my DVD collection so there is no chance I'll spend any more money on DVDs. There's also the lesson learned about buying up new movies indiscriminately just because they exist; I've got a ton of DVDs I've watched only once or twice.

"Transformers" doesn't make my short list of movies to buy this year (and there are a ton of them to consider...) given my priorities on PQ/SQ. I'll wait for the next special edition and/or the year later clearance bin sale. Doubledipping is something to avoid and "Transformers" reeks of a doubledip scenario.

I was initially disappointed as we were lead to believe that Paramount were going lossless in future, but first Blades of Glory and now Transformers disproved this. To deepen my disappointment I felt that Transformers had perhaps the greatest movie soundtrack I could remember and was begging for lossless.

In truth though, I've had to accept that it really won't make that much difference. Whenever I listen to a lossless track, I always 'feel' that I am enjoying it more, and am hearing the benefits - but in truth I'm not convinced that I've not simply fallen for the placebo effect. Fact is, I've heard some tremendous DD+ scores on HD DVD such as King Kong, and could detect no weakness in them. If pushed I'd say that DD+ sounds a little 'cleaner' whereas there is more 'air' to a lossless track due to little incidental sounds, but I'm still not convinced myself that I'm not just imagining this!!

One thing I would certainly concur with is the superiority of both DD+ and lossless to regular Dolby Digital & DTS. I tend to find that subconsciously I set the volume louder with these legacy formats to compensate for any deficiencies in the depth of the soundstage and clarity, wheras I often have to pinch myself with DD+ & lossless to make sure I set it loud enough, as even at lower volume there is so much to hear. Anyone else found this?

I've already retired my DVD collection so there is no chance I'll spend any more money on DVDs. There's also the lesson learned about buying up new movies indiscriminately just because they exist; I've got a ton of DVDs I've watched only once or twice.

"Transformers" doesn't make my short list of movies to buy this year (and there are a ton of them to consider...) given my priorities on PQ/SQ. I'll wait for the next special edition and/or the year later clearance bin sale. Doubledipping is something to avoid and "Transformers" reeks of a doubledip scenario.

It also doesn't even make my list yet, there are way too many movies coming out this year. I'm sorry but Harry Potter 1-5 > Transformers

I'm picking this movie up. Lucky for me, I wasn't cursed with audophile-ears. These people can probably hear the sound of their own ass-cheeks tightly pressing together.

I suspect that the majority of people around here that are not buying the HD DVD version don't own an HD DVD player...

Although I would have preferred a lossless track, I am definitely planning on picking this movie up.

Yes. Don't know what the OP is referring to. I can see blu ray only posters posting phony posts claiming HD DVD ownership because of their disgruntled mindset regarding Transformers and Paramount. Otherwise, while I'd prefer a lossless track DD+ isn't a slouch and certainly isn't enough to keep me from buying the movie.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.

Isn't the movie a little violent for a 4 year old?

Rental!!
But you'd buy it now wouldn't you if it was on Blu-ray with DD @ 640kbps. Hmmm.

This is the audio and video sciences... we should obsess over these things... cutting edge is what this place is about not last generation options in todays hi-def players.
so if this is a place about cutting edge technology, why are people in this thread buying the DVD, which is not cutting edge technology anymore.

Oh CRAP. I am trying to decide whether to get an HD-DVD player and the Transformers movie or just get the SD DVD for my son’s “4th“ birthday! Technically he will still be 3 when I give it to him on the 16th(2 days before his birthday).

Yea I know the movie is way to scary for a 4 year old. I plan on editing out all of the scary scenes and recompiling it back into a “PG” edited version. I know I can do this losslessly in SD DVD format. However, I am not sure if I can in HD-DVD format. Maybe my decision has already been made for me!

One of the features of the HD-DVD spec is you can create a custom movie experience that blocks out scenes for your kids and even cut out foul language. Part of that whole "IME" thing the other side keeps putting down. :)

It's mentioned in the "IME/Interactivity" thread.

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.What a "questionable" baiting thread...

Why would I buy the DVD with lower quality audio and no hi def video?

HD DVD all the way, thanks.

Personally, I will buy the SD DVD. My 4 year old son is going to watch it in his room anyway.But you and other BD stalwarts are only buying the DVD because you refuse to buy the HD DVD...

And no one believes that you would really show this movie to a poor 4 year-old, that would be child abuse.

I suspect the comment was plainly put there just to denigrate the movie and put down those who want to watch it.

Typical...

How many of those who "stated" they were going to pass this up, are actually going to be at the Best Buy the next town over purchasing this. They'll have to be in disguise too, hoping that nobody from that blu-ray fan site recognizes them and turns them in for breaking their "oath". :D

This just isn't a big deal for me personally and I'll be picking up the HD DVD version.

Ditto.

Your saying Transformers in hddvd will sell more than 300 in both formats??? IF that is what you are saying then you are silly. But yes it will sell more between dvd and hddvd than 300 sold period.

I don't think it's that silly. We can all wait and see :)

Ironically the people who can't get the HD DVD version are the ones who are screaming the most about the lossless audio and they might end up with the SD DVD with the 480i/p + DD 448 kbps.

So in other words, spending the same price (if they go for the collection edition) to buy the movie with the worst sound AND worst picture vs. the best picture and near-best sound.

:)

This is the stupidest thread I've seen in a while. No sane person is going to buy the SD version of the movie instead because there isn't lossless sound on the HD version. I'm a big blu-ray supporter and I think the mods should just kill this thread...ridiculous.

"The look and ?? what of perfect"?? This is supposed to be high definition Video and Audio if you buy this you are setting the standard for garbage for top movies!

How do you figure? DVD DD is 480 Kbps, Movie DD is 340 Kbps so thats a 40% increase in bps. DD+ is 1.5 Mbps = 315% more bits per second than DVD and 441% more than the movie theater DD. Even DD at 640 kbps offers a 30% improvement over DVD. Stop being crybabies and enjoy the show.

so if this is a place about cutting edge technology, why are people in this thread buying the DVD, which is not cutting edge technology anymore.


+1

One of the features of the HD-DVD spec is you can create a custom movie experience that blocks out scenes for your kids and even cut out foul language. Part of that whole "IME" thing the other side keeps putting down. :)

It's mentioned in the "IME/Interactivity" thread.

Actually, this would be a perfect use for Seamless branching.

Will buy HD DVD over SD anyday of the week. Transformers is going to be awesome in DD+. A must buy!

Actually, this would be a perfect use for Seamless branching.

Which version of BD offers that? 1.0, 1.1, 2.0?

I know it's already standard on HD-DVD. Has been since player #1 and will always be -- finished specs are great like that.

4.7.1 Parental control-based play lists
The movie is automatically “scripted” based on parental control levels and can be controlled in all of the
following ways:
• Scenes of a mature nature are automatically skipped. This process does not require any re-editing of
the movie, as the selected scenes are automatically skipped as defined in the “script.”
• Scenes of a mature nature are replaced with alternative segments of audio/video/subtitles.
• Scenes of a mature nature are muted/blocked (i.e. audio is muted, subtitles are blocked, offensive
portions of the video screen are masked).

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.

Hi,

Not buying this movie title because it doesn't have a lossless track in the vast majority of cases is merely juvenile. There are so few instances where someone has both the necessary high-end equipment and a trained ear that we must conclude that most of these people are more influenced by reading specs than their ability to truly perceive any audible difference.

Here's Marc Fishman's thoughts on the subject. He's a professional sound mixer who has mixed almost 90 feature films.

Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11534965&postcount=509)

Personally, I've already pre-ordered the HD DVD.

This really is a non-issue.

Larry

On the long shot that you could hear the difference, I seriously doubt it would adversely affect the enjoyment of the movie in any meaningful way. Like I said, this thread (and really, any thread that makes a big deal out of lossless audio vs DD+) is just ridiculous.

Which version of BD offers that? 1.0, 1.1, 2.0?

I know it's already standard on HD-DVD. Has been since player #1 and will always be -- finished specs are great like that.

4.7.1 Parental control-based play lists
The movie is automatically “scripted” based on parental control levels and can be controlled in all of the
following ways:
• Scenes of a mature nature are automatically skipped. This process does not require any re-editing of
the movie, as the selected scenes are automatically skipped as defined in the “script.”
• Scenes of a mature nature are replaced with alternative segments of audio/video/subtitles.
• Scenes of a mature nature are muted/blocked (i.e. audio is muted, subtitles are blocked, offensive
portions of the video screen are masked).

As I recall it's been on Blu-ray from the very beginning. It's also my understanding HD DVD has issues with it because seamless branching is a bandwidth hog which is a no-no because of HD DVD's bandwidth limitations.

No surprise. :rolleyes:

When did you buy an HD DVD player?:rolleyes:

You are buying it in SD DVD because you cannot get it on Blu-ray, accept that, and move on.

I have had an hd dvd player since August 2006. I support Blu Ray and own both. At least I have experiences with both formats. More than 90% of the bickering idiots on this forum (me included).

This is actually one movie I WOULD purchase if it was a combo. I will probably watch this once in my home theater and he will watch it many times in his room.

This is one disc that SHOULD have been a combo.

I don't think it's that silly. We can all wait and see :)

Agreed. We should all understand... Transformers is going to be HUGE. The biggest HD release so far by far when its all said and done. And yes, more than 300... that's right I said it. You heard it here first.

Or maybe not.. :)

But you and other BD stalwarts are only buying the DVD because you refuse to buy the HD DVD...

And no one believes that you would really show this movie to a poor 4 year-old, that would be child abuse.

I suspect the comment was plainly put there just to denigrate the movie and put down those who want to watch it.

Typical...

Your high and mighty BS should be removed from this forum for good.

I meant what I said. I have a 4 year old. I took him to see this movie at the theater. He has around 10 of the toys. He has a theatrical release poster in his room that a friend of mine gave him. He likes the movie. He watches Jurassic Park, Spiderman and a lot of super hero movies by himself.

You guys need to get a life. You try to read way too much into every post on this forum. I was not referring to you being a FOUR year old because you are buying this movie.

I would have bought this movie if it WERE A COMBO.

But you and other BD stalwarts are only buying the DVD because you refuse to buy the HD DVD...

And no one believes that you would really show this movie to a poor 4 year-old, that would be child abuse.

I suspect the comment was plainly put there just to denigrate the movie and put down those who want to watch it.

Typical... Throttle back there kiddo. :D

...that statement is a bit over the top and this isnt the place for that kinda attitude...

Its not R-rated feature, and a lot of parents will watch this movie with kids.

Take a nice hot tody now, and chill out with a HD movie and come back when you aren't so hot and botgered.

Ye gads... thats a bit too deep thinking about motivations, take a break , please.... :) :) :)

Your high and mighty BS should be removed from this forum for good.

I meant what I said. I have a 4 year old. I took him to see this movie at the theater. He has around 10 of the toys. He has a theatrical release poster in his room that a friend of mine gave him. He like the movie. He watches Jurassic Park, Spiderman and a lot of super hero movies by himself.

You guys need to get a life. You try to read way too much into every post on this forum. I was not referring to you being a FOUR year old because you are buying this movie.

I would have bought this movie if it WERE A COMBO. I agree with you that rdjam was over the top.

I'll make sure he gets one less HD DVD t-shirt next trade show. ;) :D

I have had an hd dvd player since August 2006. I support Blu Ray and own both. At least I have experiences with both formats. More than 90% of the bickering idiots on this forum (me included).

This is actually one movie I WOULD purchase if it was a combo. I will probably watch this once in my home theater and he will watch it many times in his room.

This is one disc that SHOULD have been a combo.

I agree.

I don't have an HD DVD player yet but this movie is pushing me toward one. However, if I buy the HD DVD my daughter won't be able to play it in her room! This means it is likely a double-dip if I go HD DVD.

I'll be buying it and having a blast with my kids watching it while a lot of you whine and watch the video in crappy SD. Have a blast. I know we will.

I agree.

I don't have an HD DVD player yet but this movie is pushing me toward one. However, if I buy the HD DVD my daughter won't be able to play it in her room! This means it is likely a double-dip if I go HD DVD.

Hmm....If you buy your daughter a cheap HD-DVD player, she can watch this movie in HD/SD every time...... Perhaps, you can borrow it from her time to time. :)

I'll be buying it and having a blast with my kids watching it while a lot of you whine and watch the video in crappy SD. Have a blast. I know we will.

Come on. It won't be crappy on SD and after several minutes, you'll still enjoy the movie if you don't have ADD and look for flaws. Well, you could do that on the HD DVD version too. :)


I just hope they do a good job on the transfer(no macroblocking).

Why would I buy a SD DVD version that only has DD and an inferior picture when I can get a product in HD with DD+ which may not be lossless but is better than regular DD?

Hmm....If you buy your daughter a cheap HD-DVD player, she can watch this movie in HD/SD every time...... Perhaps, you can borrow it from her time to time. :)


There are no cheap HD DVD players yet.

There are no cheap HD DVD players yet.

$199 is cheap for High Def. We'll a few hundred dollars cheaper than the other side.

Watch for it at Walmart in about a month. ;) (oh and I'm referring to Toshiba A2's)

There are no cheap HD DVD players yet.

Umm yeah there are. Especially for x360 owners with kids.

There are no cheap HD DVD players yet.

Xbox Add-on $150
A2 - $199

How is that not cheap?

Just locate a friend/store who will have a DTS HD MA-capable setup and A/B the DTS core (lossy) track and the DTS HD MA soundtrack on virtually every Fox movie. That will give you some idea of the differences (if any).
Fox studio?
Is that the same studio this hasn't released a single HD title since April?
What are they are waiting for... to switch to the "other" HD media format. ;)

I will just wait till it comes out on Blu-ray in 11 or 17 months and get the lossless audio then.

I will just wait till it comes out on Blu-ray in 11 or 17 months and get the lossless audio then.

I'm going to wait for pigs to fly and money to grow on trees. :)

I'm not sure I could pass a blind test between lossless and 1.5 mbit dd+. If it sounds fantastic (which I'm sure it will) that will be enough for me.

When I bought into these formats lossless sound was not one of the buyin points. 1.5 mbit dd+ is enough for this guy,

I'm picking up the HD DVD. My A1 6CH Analog and my Harman Kardon receiver makes this a kick arse combination, beats anything pcm or lossless.

[QUOTE=TheGizzard;11716038]Agreed. We should all understand... Transformers is going to be HUGE. The biggest HD release so far by far when its all said and done. And yes, more than 300... that's right I said it. You heard it here first.

Or maybe not.. :)[/QUOTE Well then you both will be wrong because are there even as many HD DVD players out there as there have been Hi Def copies of 300 sold? I don't know if there is and not every person that owns a HD DVD player is going to buy Transformers

$199 is cheap for High Def. We'll a few hundred dollars cheaper than the other side.

Watch for it at Walmart in about a month. ;) (oh and I'm referring to Toshiba A2's)


You get what you pay for.... you can't keep comparing a not available yet 199$ 1080i player with a 499$ 1080p player that you can buy right now!

Xbox Add-on $150
A2 - $199

How is that not cheap?

Great everyone go out and buy clearance electronics!

Xbox Add-on $150
A2 - $199

How is that not cheap?

Did the add-on drop to $150 MSRP or is that a deal. I know amazon had (maybe still available?) a fantastic deal for 8 free HD-DVD's whe it was $179. Personally I'll need a stand alone for the lossless surround but the prices are getting there. Love the aggressive deals going on all the time!

I'm going to wait for pigs to fly and money to grow on trees. :)
No need to wait. Already happend. :)

http://i.treehugger.com/images/2007-3-21/animals2.jpghttp://www.isst-d.org/Graphics/Images/moneytree.gif

If Transformers was music I would care about lossless, I hate compressed audio for MUSIC.

Depends what you mean by "compressed"... do you mean compressed as in dynamic range compressed?

To deepen my disappointment I felt that Transformers had perhaps the greatest movie soundtrack I could remember and was begging for lossless.

You likely didn't get lossless at the Cinema, if you still claim it was so fantastic, it is very likely you'll be blown away by even the DVD mix.

You get what you pay for.... you can't keep comparing a not available yet 199$ 1080i player with a 499$ 1080p player that you can buy right now!

If you have a 1080p TV... which majority don't... you're free to get a A20 for $307.14 at Amazon vs. $439.57 for the cheapest BD player! :) (not even 1.1 compatible)

Great everyone go out and buy clearance electronics!

Do the juvenile retorts ever get old with you blushirts?

This whole thread is one long series of petulant "HD-DVD sux and Paramount sux and I'm just gunna watch the DVD cuz it will be way betterer than the crappy HD-DVD!" posts.

Good luck with that.

Once again, if it were on Blu-Ray, it would be exhorted here as a technical masterpiece by the BR faithful. As others have mentioned, the quality of the mix is far more critical than the audio spec used. A sh*tty mix using a lossless codec just means crisper sh*t (if you're actually one of the few people that can tell an audible difference between DD+ and lossless in the first place...)

It's politics and religion, nothing more. Someone go call the Wambulance...

Come on. It won't be crappy on SD and after several minutes, you'll still enjoy the movie if you don't have ADD and look for flaws. Well, you could do that on the HD DVD version too. :)


I just hope they do a good job on the transfer(no macroblocking).Man, has this place flipped. BTW, I have seen macroblocking in about every BD I have watched. It is just with the most recent releases that it has lessened (Fifth Element has almost none).

If you have a 1080p TV... which majority don't... you're free to get a A20 for $307.14 at Amazon vs. $439.57 for the cheapest BD player! :) (not even 1.1 compatible)
You can go to Best Buy this week and get the A20 for $299 and Samsung BD-P1200 at Sears for $399.

Although the Blu-ray players on the market aren't profile 1.1, they don't have audio lip sync issues. I hope the next FW release fixes that..... ;)

Do the juvenile retorts ever get old with you blushirts?

This whole thread is one long series of petulant "HD-DVD sux and Paramount sux and I'm just gunna watch the DVD cuz it will be way betterer than the crappy HD-DVD!" posts.

Good luck with that.

Once again, if it were on Blu-Ray, it would be exhorted here as a technical masterpiece by the BR faithful. As others have mentioned, the quality of the mix is far more critical than the audio spec used. A sh*tty mix using a lossless codec just means crisper sh*t (if you're actually one of the few people that can tell an audible difference between DD+ and lossless in the first place...)

It's politics and religion, nothing more. Someone go call the Wambulance...

Your post made me cry a little. Beautifully SAID!

Man, has this place flipped. BTW, I have seen macroblocking in about every BD I have watched. It is just with the most recent releases that it has lessened (Fifth Element has almost none).
Well, I have yet to see any macroblocking on any Blu-ray movies(On Samsung BD-P1200) I've watched. Even the latest Troy DC had great PQ, although it was grainy at times.:)
Even SD DVD's look great on this player.

I'm telling you, go watch Backdraft on HD DVD and you will be floored with the unsatisfactory transfer of this movie and the serious macroblocking issues that peice has throughout the movie. They really need to re-master that movie. Blood Diamond also could use some cleaning up in some scenes.

Your saying Transformers in hddvd will sell more than 300 in both formats??? IF that is what you are saying then you are silly. But yes it will sell more between dvd and hddvd than 300 sold period.

Won’t the Transformers DVD sell more copies than any other single movie in any format combined?

Won’t the Transformers DVD sell more copies than any other single movie in any format combined?

It will certainly sell more on HD DVD than Blu-ray for high def formats.

...I will just wait till it comes out on Blu-ray in 11 or 17 months

Man, I admire the smurf tenacity I see here... you really think Paramount is coming back? Well, I guess you have to grab whatever delusion has a blue tint and hold on tight...

If DD+ and DTS-HD or DD true-HD won't have noticeble difference to most, at least they should have DTS in SD DVD instead of the DD. For that, they do have distinct difference in quality.

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.

most of these people are either BD fanbois or don't own HD DVD or just a compulsive complainer.

I already ordered it. Not sorry.

Well, I have yet to see any macroblocking on any Blu-ray movies(On Samsung BD-P1200) I've watched. Even the latest Troy DC had great PQ, although it was grainy at times.:)
Even SD DVD's look great on this player.

I'm telling you, go watch Backdraft on HD DVD and you will be floored with the unsatisfactory transfer of this movie and the serious macroblocking issues that peice has throughout the movie. They really need to re-master that movie. Blood Diamond also could use some cleaning up in some scenes.


Oh come on! Never watched Basic Instinct? Original pressing of The Fifth Element? House of Flying Daggers? Silent Hill? Terminator 2?

most of these people are either BD fanbois or don't own HD DVD or just a compulsive complainer.

well based on Nielsen numbers it does seem there are significantly more BD fanbois than HD DVD fanbois :p

well based on Nielsen numbers it does seem there are significantly more BD fanbois than HD DVD fanbois :p

You mean from 4:1 beggining of year to 1.5:1 last couple of weeks? I'd say you better repeat that as much as you can cause in a few weeks it seems that information will be incorrect.

The whole lossless audio think is too subjective to be a deal breaker for me. To my ears, Hot Fuzz HD DVD is one of the best sounding discs in my collection, even above some of the TrueHD or PCM tracks I've listened to.

Of course, this is lost on the kind of person that looks at specs and numbers above anything else. Lucky me, I get to sit back and enjoy my movies. :cool:

Oh come on! Never watched Basic Instinct? Original pressing of The Fifth Element? House of Flying Daggers? Silent Hill? Terminator 2?

How old are these releases? They were pretty much early Blu-ray stuff. Your point would have more impact with a newer release.

How old are these releases? They were pretty much early Blu-ray stuff. Your point would have more impact with a newer release.

Is Backdraft new?

I know it's already standard on HD-DVD. Has been since player #1 and will always be -- finished specs are great like that.

I think the terminology here is incorrect...

This unfinished spec business makes it sound like profile 1.1 and 2.0 are these big undefined entities to which the BDA could add or remove features without warning.

However both profile 1.1 and 2.0 have been defined but at the moment remain unimplemented. The features implemented by each profile are well known - we know secondary video and audio streaming is profile 1.1 and internet connectivity is 2.0.

But hey, it sounds so much more dramatic to say unfinished.

But in terms of seemless branching, HD-DVD's fully implemented spec hasn't helped it get titles released with this feature.

4 year old son? seriously? wow.


We have a parent of the year candidate...:)

i know im in the minority here, but im going to get the movie because i actually liked it. im guessing on avs noone does that anymore.

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.

I'd rather have it in HD with DD+ than no HD at all. So, I'll be buying it and if they include a lossless later I'll give the original to a relative.

Do the juvenile retorts ever get old with you blushirts?

This whole thread is one long series of petulant "HD-DVD sux and Paramount sux and I'm just gunna watch the DVD cuz it will be way betterer than the crappy HD-DVD!" posts.

Good luck with that.

Once again, if it were on Blu-Ray, it would be exhorted here as a technical masterpiece by the BR faithful. As others have mentioned, the quality of the mix is far more critical than the audio spec used. A sh*tty mix using a lossless codec just means crisper sh*t (if you're actually one of the few people that can tell an audible difference between DD+ and lossless in the first place...)

It's politics and religion, nothing more. Someone go call the Wambulance...

It is just funny to me that someone would quote those great prices over a BD player and forget to mention that they are priced at that for clearance reasons as they will be bringing out a new hd dvd add on for the 360.

Won’t the Transformers DVD sell more copies than any other single movie in any format combined?

Yeah of course it will but the poster stated that it would sell more on HD DVD than 300 did on both Blu Ray and HD DVD which is not going to happen... I guarantee it.

Yeah of course it will but the poster stated that it would sell more on HD DVD than 300 did on both Blu Ray and HD DVD which is not going to happen... I guarantee it.

You guarantee it??:)

There are no cheap HD DVD players yet.

Toshiba HD-A2 + 8 (that's right 8) FREE movies for $218 delivered to my door.

What do you expect them to just give it to you or what??

I wasn't going to buy it on any format. But, now I am going to get the HD DVD just to spite the Blu bois. Sorry, OP, looks like your plan backfired.

Yeah of course it will but the poster stated that it would sell more on HD DVD than 300 did on both Blu Ray and HD DVD which is not going to happen... I guarantee it.

Thank You Joe Namath!

I think the terminology here is incorrect...

This unfinished spec business makes it sound like profile 1.1 and 2.0 are these big undefined entities to which the BDA could add or remove features without warning.

However both profile 1.1 and 2.0 have been defined but at the moment remain unimplemented. The features implemented by each profile are well known - we know secondary video and audio streaming is profile 1.1 and internet connectivity is 2.0.

But hey, it sounds so much more dramatic to say unfinished.

But in terms of seemless branching, HD-DVD's fully implemented spec hasn't helped it get titles released with this feature.

If the features are UNIMPLEMENTED, then isn't the player UNFINISHED??

I think that is EXACTLY what it means.
And it sounds WAY MORE dramatic too!!

Maybe not in the BLU world, but in the real world.

You mean from 4:1 beggining of year to 1.5:1 last couple of weeks? I'd say you better repeat that as much as you can cause in a few weeks it seems that information will be incorrect.

oh my, such big talk!, lol. Since you are so confident you must be strong enough to set a time at which HD DVD will permantly pass blu-ray at Neilsen. So what do you believe it is?

I think the terminology here is incorrect...

This unfinished spec business makes it sound like profile 1.1 and 2.0 are these big undefined entities to which the BDA could add or remove features without warning.

However both profile 1.1 and 2.0 have been defined but at the moment remain unimplemented. The features implemented by each profile are well known - we know secondary video and audio streaming is profile 1.1 and internet connectivity is 2.0.

But hey, it sounds so much more dramatic to say unfinished.

But in terms of seemless branching, HD-DVD's fully implemented spec hasn't helped it get titles released with this feature.

The difference is that 1.1 is not backwards compatible with 1.0. 2.0 is not backwards compatible with 1.1 or 1.0.

Basically you buy Bluray and you enjoy technology, you will be buying 3 players in the next 1-3 years.

You can't put in a secondary video processor using a firmware update. It's hardware. You can't put in internet connectivity using a firmware update. It's hardware.

With HD-DVD, finished spec means that every player must meet set criteria and all content must be compatible with set criteria. It means everyone will play and will always play. Buy a player today, good forever.

Hi,

Not buying this movie title because it doesn't have a lossless track in the vast majority of cases is merely juvenile. There are so few instances where someone has both the necessary high-end equipment and a trained ear that we must conclude that most of these people are more influenced by reading specs than their ability to truly perceive any audible difference.

Here's Marc Fishman's thoughts on the subject. He's a professional sound mixer who has mixed almost 90 feature films.

Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11534965&postcount=509)

Personally, I've already pre-ordered the HD DVD.

This really is a non-issue.

Larry

Great post. This should be the last word on the subject.
(But, common sense being in short supply, it won't be;))

oh my, such big talk!, lol. Since you are so confident you must be strong enough to set a time at which HD DVD will permantly pass blu-ray at Neilsen. So what do you believe it is?

I understand where you are coming from...but how about you reply without the sarcasm/belittling?

What a worthless thread!

1. Buy the movie in HD DVD and get HD PQ and DD+
2. Buy the move in SD and get 480i with DD5.1
3. Don't buy the movie at all.

Duh . . .

Strange.

There are people here who claim to go for the PQ & SQ.

And yet they're going to buy an SD DVD with NTSC picture and DD sound, rather than the HD DVD with 1080p and DD+ sound.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

I'd prefer the disc to have lossless sound (probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but hell, who knows?) and the full studio digital master.

Trouble is, the digital master is in 4k resolution.

So am I never going to buy a BD or HD DVD ever again, because it's only 25% of the resuolution of the studio master?

Are some people here just stupid or lying?

Steve W

Toshiba HD-A2 + 8 (that's right 8) FREE movies for $218 delivered to my door.

What do you expect them to just give it to you or what??

Just call me "Joe".

That's inexpensive enough for my living room but not cheap enough to buy another one for my daughter's room. I suppose I could justify it based on not having to buy a DVD and an HD DVD copy but then what about her laptop (uses it to watch movies in the car).

A combo would be preferable to me for this movie.

Toshiba HD-A2 + 8 (that's right 8) FREE movies for $218 delivered to my door.

What do you expect them to just give it to you or what??
So, you get to chose 3 that they have in stock, which may or may not be the movies you want.

And the 5 free movie selection is awful on HD DVD and BD.
So, even though it sounds/looks good on paper, the selections of the 5 free are nothing to boast about.
Ya, 5 movies I never purchased/liked and now I like them because they are free ? :confused:

It is just funny to me that someone would quote those great prices over a BD player and forget to mention that they are priced at that for clearance reasons as they will be bringing out a new hd dvd add on for the 360.
Confirmed source, please?

Here's mine. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11695006#post11695006)

Strange.

There are people here who claim to go for the PQ & SQ.

And yet they're going to buy an SD DVD with NTSC picture and DD sound, rather than the HD DVD with 1080p and DD+ sound.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

I'd prefer the disc to have lossless sound (probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but hell, who knows?) and the full studio digital master.

Trouble is, the digital master is in 4k resolution.

So am I never going to buy a BD or HD DVD ever again, because it's only 25% of the resuolution of the studio master?

Are some people here just stupid or lying?

Steve W

I vote for stupid liars. ;)

Toshiba HD-A2 + 8 (that's right 8) FREE movies for $218 delivered to my door.

What do you expect them to just give it to you or what??


8 movies at $25 each is $200. That leaves the A2 for $18 including shipping and tax. I'd say that IS pretty much giving them away.

Still, it might be too much when you consider that many BD fans had to take out a home equity loan to get their $1200 player and won't have any disposable income for atleast 6 years.

Love this quote:

........ Bottom line, as with some reviewers, if you know what to listen for, there are differences.

If I know what to listen for? So are we watching a movie now, or measuring sound waves with mic's?

That kinda sums this whole thread up. A useless exercise in nothingness. I have tried to hear many times the difference on most of my HD DVD's between the DD+ tracks and the TrueHD. For the life of me I can never hear what all the fuss is about.

The difference, if you don't know what to listen for, is well non-existent. Sound by 'Heisenberg uncertainty principle' one could say.

Are some people here just stupid or lying?
Neither - it's the simple "if I can't have it, it sucks" mentality. Also shown in a Halo thread elsewhere on this forum.

Strange.

There are people here who claim to go for the PQ & SQ.

And yet they're going to buy an SD DVD with NTSC picture and DD sound, rather than the HD DVD with 1080p and DD+ sound.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

I'd prefer the disc to have lossless sound (probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but hell, who knows?) and the full studio digital master.

Trouble is, the digital master is in 4k resolution.

So am I never going to buy a BD or HD DVD ever again, because it's only 25% of the resuolution of the studio master?

Are some people here just stupid or lying?

Steve W


Couldn't say it better. I go for stupid liars.

Toshiba HD-A2 + 8 (that's right 8) FREE movies for $218 delivered to my door.

What do you expect them to just give it to you or what??

Well that's the way he got his PS3 - from mommy/daddy.:)

This is so retarded, (apolgies to the retarded). This disc isn't out yet and morons again!!! are boo hooing the SQ of this film. Lossy/lossless....it will sound fantastic, go get a life for gods sake.

Sick of this S**t:mad:

So let me get this straight, the SD DVD has Lossless Audio????

I mean, here is your premise, I want lossless audio, but the HD DVD Transformers won't have lossless audio, so instead I'm going to buy the SD DVD.


LOL LOL LOL

You are a fool.

If your going to buy the movie, the SD DVD costs $23 and the HD DVD costs $28.

The difference is 5 Freakin' Dollars.

And if your thinking that your not buying the HD DVD will make some kind of statement, your absolutely absurd, because no matter what anyone does, this HD DVD will be the best selling HD DVD of the year.

The difference is that 1.1 is not backwards compatible with 1.0. 2.0 is not backwards compatible with 1.1 or 1.0.

Basically you buy Bluray and you enjoy technology, you will be buying 3 players in the next 1-3 years.

You can't put in a secondary video processor using a firmware update. It's hardware. You can't put in internet connectivity using a firmware update. It's hardware.

With HD-DVD, finished spec means that every player must meet set criteria and all content must be compatible with set criteria. It means everyone will play and will always play. Buy a player today, good forever.

What it really means is that HD DVD is a dead-spec, meaning it will never get any better. Blu-ray has levels of conformance built into their system. The basic blu-ray player (1.0) will play all the movies and a few other things. If you want more features, you buy a 1.1 or 2.0 player. In the future, I fully expect them to come up with even more cool stuff the players can do and they will no doubt release a 3.0 spec someday. I get the level of the features I pay for. 5 years from now my 1.0 blu-ray player will still do all the stuff it does right now, with all the releases that come out.

HD DVD on the other hand has a fixed set of features it supports now and it will never grow. It is naive to think that everything they might possibly need in the future is done. The truth is that HD DVD will change their spec in the future as well. They will call it version 2.0 as well and discs released in version 2.0 will probably play in 1.0 players, but the 1.0 players won't do the 2.0 features.

Looks to me like they are already doing it with TL51 discs. I will be surprised if all players from the past can play TL51 discs. Sure, cry about how they won't approve it if it is not backward compatible, but that is simply saying that TL51 may never be a reality. How long do you think HD DVD can remain stuck with the same old tired spec as blu-ray adds features upon features?

Blu-ray was smart having levels of conformance right from the start. The basic player that doesn't have all the crap, such that it can be manufactured dirt-cheap in the future, plus players that support higher-end features.

What it really means is that HD DVD is a dead-spec, meaning it will never get any better. Blu-ray has levels of conformance built into their system. The basic blu-ray player (1.0) will play all the movies and a few other things. If you want more features, you buy a 1.1 or 2.0 player. In the future, I fully expect them to come up with even more cool stuff the players can do and they will no doubt release a 3.0 spec someday. I get the level of the features I pay for. 5 years from now my 1.0 blu-ray player will still do all the stuff it does right now, with all the releases that come out.

HD DVD on the other hand has a fixed set of features it supports now and it will never grow. It is naive to think that everything they might possibly need in the future is done. The truth is that HD DVD will change their spec in the future as well. They will call it version 2.0 as well and discs released in version 2.0 will probably play in 1.0 players, but the 1.0 players won't do the 2.0 features.

Looks to me like they are already doing it with TL51 discs. I will be surprised if all players from the past can play TL51 discs. Sure, cry about how they won't approve it if it is not backward compatible, but that is simply saying that TL51 may never be a reality. How long do you think HD DVD can remain stuck with the same old tired spec as blu-ray adds features upon features?

Blu-ray was smart having levels of conformance right from the start. The basic player that doesn't have all the crap, such that it can be manufactured dirt-cheap in the future, plus players that support higher-end features.

Wow!

Nothing stopping them from creating a HD-DVD 2.0 spec and going through the approval process with the DVD powers to be. Sayings you know for sure 1.0 players won't play 2.0 discs period is just a wild guess on your part. Sheesh!

Good attempt at putting a dead spin on it though... :rolleyes:

I'm into picture quality so SD isn't an option. I'll be picking it up in HD-DVD.

Wow!

Nothing stopping them from creating a HD-DVD 2.0 spec and going through the approval process with the DVD powers to be. Sayings you know for sure 1.0 players won't play 2.0 discs period is just a wild guess on your part. Sheesh!

Good attempt at putting a dead spin on it though... :rolleyes:

Hmm, you must not have read what I actually said. HD DVD fans brags about their finished spec like it's set in stone forever. My assertion was that HD DVD would eventually have to create a 2.0 spec just like blu-ray did in order to keep up with new features that will no doubt come up in the future. I also asserted that the 2.0 discs would likely still play in the 1.0 players, just without the new features.

In other words, you completely misread what I said in an attempt to defend HD DVD and in doing so, you actually repeated exactly the point I was trying to make, that HD DVD will do the exact same thing. Blu-ray just has a system in place already to deal with levels of conformance. HD DVD will have to make one up the first time a new feature comes along they want to add.

I'm not buying any version of Transformers. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed it but I'm not really inclined to support Paramount at all right now, and this half-assed edition certainly didn't convince me to make an exception. If Paramount releases a blu-ray version eventually I may get that, or if HD DVD wins and they release a version with proper audio I may get that. In the meantime, I won't be buying any Paramount releases in the forseeable future.

...it's the simple "if I can't have it, it sucks" mentality. Also shown in a Halo thread elsewhere on this forum.

...Well that's the way he got his PS3 - from mommy/daddy.

It's now so clear.... I can't believe I didn't see it earlier. Sony's strategy from the start was to piggyback a HT device on a video game system, the fans of which are typically teenage video gamers who defend their hardware with an almost religious fervor (see: Intel vs AMD, NVidia vs ATi, and my personal fav, "who would win in a fight: Hawkman or The Green lantern?")... Given that particular demographic, they would ensure a following that would not question anything they were spoon fed, and will accept news stories from "unnamed executives" without pause (even when the exec is question could very well be the CEO of Sony disguising his voice)...

What it really means is that HD DVD is a dead-spec, meaning it will never get any better. Blu-ray has levels of conformance built into their system. The basic blu-ray player (1.0) will play all the movies and a few other things. If you want more features, you buy a 1.1 or 2.0 player. In the future, I fully expect them to come up with even more cool stuff the players can do and they will no doubt release a 3.0 spec someday. I get the level of the features I pay for. 5 years from now my 1.0 blu-ray player will still do all the stuff it does right now, with all the releases that come out.

HD DVD on the other hand has a fixed set of features it supports now and it will never grow. It is naive to think that everything they might possibly need in the future is done. The truth is that HD DVD will change their spec in the future as well. They will call it version 2.0 as well and discs released in version 2.0 will probably play in 1.0 players, but the 1.0 players won't do the 2.0 features.

Looks to me like they are already doing it with TL51 discs. I will be surprised if all players from the past can play TL51 discs. Sure, cry about how they won't approve it if it is not backward compatible, but that is simply saying that TL51 may never be a reality. How long do you think HD DVD can remain stuck with the same old tired spec as blu-ray adds features upon features?

Blu-ray was smart having levels of conformance right from the start. The basic player that doesn't have all the crap, such that it can be manufactured dirt-cheap in the future, plus players that support higher-end features.

That makes the worst sense and is seriously the silliest post I've ever seen here.

Can this thread be closed?

It's now so clear.... I can't believe I didn't see it earlier. Sony's strategy from the start was to piggyback a HT device on a video game system, the fans of which are typically teenage video gamers who defend their hardware with an almost religious fervor (see: Intel vs AMD, NVidia vs ATi, and my personal fav, "who would win in a fight: Hawkman or The Green lantern?")... Given that particular demographic, they would ensure a following that would not question anything they were spoon fed, and will accept news stories from "unnamed executives" without pause (even when the exec is question could very well be the CEO of Sony disguising his voice)...

So so true.

And per, HD DVD specifications. It's very unlikely that HD DVD needs to do anything to modify their specification as it already is offering the sorts of things studios are clamoring.

Maybe the guy postulating that HD DVD specs are 'dead' should realize it will in all likelihood take Sony/BDA a year or more to match what HD DVD can do today. Will BD even survive that long with an outdated spec? Will be interesting to see.

What it really means is that HD DVD is a dead-spec,

*snip* - some of the craziest spin I've ever seen or heard . . .

The basic player that doesn't have all the crap, such that it can be manufactured dirt-cheap in the future, plus players that support higher-end features.


No offense, but you really have to be at the highest degree of self-delusion to write something like this. I'm format neutral, I buy both. However, it's posts like these that are slowly turning me towards wishing HD DVD carries the day; if only so I won't have to read this type of BS ever again. You would do a lot toward helping your "cause" if you kept this type of absurd rhetoric to a minimum.

Face it, Sony blew it by rushing an incomplete spec to market. How they handle this fact remains to be seen, but to try and sugar coat it by saying it's better than having a "dead" (AKA 'completed" for all but the delusional) spec is the utmost in spin. You aren't dealing with complete rubes here, please don't treat us as such.

Face it, Sony blew it by rushing an incomplete spec to market. How they handle this fact remains to be seen, but to try and sugar coat it by saying it's better than having a "dead" (AKA 'completed" for all but the delusional) spec is the utmost in spin. You aren't dealing with complete rubes here, please don't treat us as such.
I agree that Sony is kind of is lacking on the full implementation of their specs but the player does work well in regards to playing movies and extras(BDP-S300 & BD-P1200 I've used). They also haven't required an abundant amount of firmware updates to resolve issues. I believe most Blu-ray players have only had one or maybe 2 updates.

Although HD DVD specs are completed, I've seen a quite a few enthusists abandon ship lately in the HD DVD Player forum.
If enthusists are getting tired of player issues, what does J6P think/do who doesn't have AVS as a resource and runs into issues that may or may not be resolved with Firmware updates.

...If enthusiasts are getting tired of player issues

The player issues up to this point have been the fault of Toshiba, not the technology. Now that Onkyo and Integra are in the wings, I would bet that you can pretty much say goodbye to "player issues". The same can be said of Samsung players. Just because Sammy's seem to be lacking in advanced audio features, and the playback is no more reliable, this does not reflect on Blu Ray technology, just the implementation thereof...

I agree that Sony is kind of is lacking on the full implementation of their specs but the player does work well in regards to playing movies and extras(BDP-S300 & BD-P1200 I've used). They also haven't required an abundant amount of firmware updates to resolve issues. I believe most Blu-ray players have only had one or maybe 2 updates.

Although HD DVD specs are completed, I've seen a quite a few enthusists abandon ship lately in the HD DVD Player forum.
If enthusists are getting tired of player issues, what does J6P think/do who doesn't have AVS as a resource and runs into issues that may or may not be resolved with Firmware updates.

The difference being that the HD DVD forum willingly posts about problems. Forgive me if I say the blind faith of the other side turns me off far more than the occasional person who finds that early adoption is not for them or that problems are too much for them to overcome.

I own an A2 and a BD10A and both have been problem free. Then again, I'm an engineer by trade and I am able to understand a little more about the life cycle of new electronics than the average person.

Plus, if you think the problems J6P has with 1st and 2nd generation HD DVD players are bad, just wait till ol' Joe picks up his $199 Black Friday Sony BDP-S300 and POTC takes over 5 minutes to load and Joe Jr. can't play the Java Dice game on X-mas Day. I know, I bought an S300 and returned it the next day for that very reason (well, that and no support for HD audio codecs).

S300 for $199 by Black Friday? Not a chance.

That makes the worst sense and is seriously the silliest post I've ever seen here.

You obviously haven't been here to long! :p

I can't wait for the first reviews to come in, then we'll see if they found the sound "lacking". My guess is they won't. This is going to rock the house, y'all!

S300 for $199 by Black Friday? Not a chance.

Ya, not like the $499 A2 didn't drop $100 in 90 days. :rolleyes:

Plus, if you think the problems J6P has with 1st and 2nd generation HD DVD players are bad, just wait till ol' Joe picks up his $199 Black Friday Sony BDP-S300 and POTC takes over 5 minutes to load and Joe Jr. can't play the Java Dice game on X-mas Day. I know, I bought an S300 and returned it the next day for that very reason (well, that and no support for HD audio codecs).

I never had issues loading or playing the Liars Dice game when I had the S300.
Yes, it did take about 90 seconds to load the disc and about 90 seconds to load the Liars Dice game but the disc/game worked with no issues.
I played it a few times with no issues.

I now have the BD-P1200 and that think loads discs/games/extras a lot quicker than the S300.

Wait til O'l Henry picks up his Po-Chang HD DVD player on Black Friday for $149 and finds that the disc freezes up or just hangs. He can't even watch a movie. What will be his thoughts about HD DVD after this incident ?

It goes both ways. Just read the HD DVD player forum.

S300 for $199 by Black Friday? Not a chance.

Uhh, I was exaggerating just a wee bit. Had to lower the price to fit the J6P scenario. Would you believe maybe $349?? :D

...Plus, if you think the problems J6P has with 1st and 2nd generation HD DVD players are bad, just wait till ol' Joe picks up his $199 Black Friday Sony BDP-S300 and POTC takes over 5 minutes to load and Joe Jr. can't play the Java Dice game on X-mas Day. I know, I bought an S300 and returned it the next day for that very reason (well, that and no support for HD audio codecs).

We bought my daughter a nice toy dog last year, but one of her friends got a Webkinz. My daughter's is much better, but she never plays with it because with the Webkinz you can do tons of stuff on-line. We quickly had to get her a Webkinz.

It will be the same with HDM soon. When the kids and teenagers start to use these things and find out that their BR players can not do all the cool web community stuff that HD DVD can, their parents will quickly have their minds changed.

I can thinkof tons of other examples too. Its why Sony is struggling to get their PS3 Home thing working too.

Yes, it did take about 90 seconds to load the disc and about 90 seconds to load the Liars Dice game

Ahhhh, brings back memories of loading a game into my Comodore64 from cassette...

I never had issues loading or playing the Liars Dice game when I had the S300.
Yes, it did take about 90 seconds to load the disc and about 90 seconds to load the Liars Dice game but the disc/game worked with no issues.
I played it a few times with no issues.

I now have the BD-P1200 and that think loads discs/games/extras a lot quicker than the S300.

Wait til O'l Henry picks up his Po-Chang HD DVD player on Black Friday for $149 and finds that the disc freezes up or just hangs. He can't even watch a movie. What will be his thoughts about HD DVD after this incident ?

It goes both ways. Just read the HD DVD player forum.

First thing I did was update the S300 and still the game wouldn't play. Maybe you got a newer firmeware than me, because on my unit, it just hung. Plays fine on the BD10A. I must admit I knew of the problems before I bought it but the BD10A was out of stock and I impulsed the S300. Shame on me.

As far as the Po-Chang comment, you are now taking a good, productive conversation and spinning off into the speculation Blu. No one has seen any of the so-called chinese players yet. Plenty have experienced the problems with the S300's lack of BD-J support and lack of HD codecs. Too bad, but I must admit it took two posts before the spin came out, which is better than usual. Thanks for the effort.

I guess we are done. Shame, I thought there was a chance for a reasonable discussion.

Ahhhh, brings back memories of loading a game into my Comodore64 from cassette...
Kind of like waiting for Halo3 to load in the Xbox 360. :)

Ahhhh, brings back memories of loading a game into my Comodore64 from cassette...

You had the cassette??? I had to type my programs in from scratch each time. You must have been rich!! :p

10 POKE 133
20 PEEK 132
30 FOR I GETS . . .

I did eventually get a mean version of Pong running. Love those extended function key graphics!!

DANG IT JGATIE!!!!

This is the third monitor this month I have spit my Pepsi all over from laughing ...:D :D

DANG IT JGATIE!!!!

This is the third monitor this month I have spit my Pepsi all over from laughing ...:D :D

Sorry. :o

Strange.

There are people here who claim to go for the PQ & SQ.

And yet they're going to buy an SD DVD with NTSC picture and DD sound, rather than the HD DVD with 1080p and DD+ sound.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

I'd prefer the disc to have lossless sound (probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but hell, who knows?) and the full studio digital master.

Trouble is, the digital master is in 4k resolution.

So am I never going to buy a BD or HD DVD ever again, because it's only 25% of the resuolution of the studio master?

Are some people here just stupid or lying?

Steve W

I vote for stupid liars. ;)

LOL !!!

I guess I'm old fashioned, have 2 separate audio systems, 1 solely for Music listening and one solely for Movie watching. So DD+ is just fine.

When watching a movie, PQ is the most important factor to me. Where can I get me one of those 4k player and display components??? :p

Try explaining to the wife that there has to be a two channel room and a movie room. Then try to explain to the wife why the 65 inch TV isn't good enough. Much tougher sell than convincing anyone on AVS of anything.:D

Love this quote:



If I know what to listen for? So are we watching a movie now, or measuring sound waves with mic's?

That kinda sums this whole thread up. A useless exercise in nothingness. I have tried to hear many times the difference on most of my HD DVD's between the DD+ tracks and the TrueHD. For the life of me I can never hear what all the fuss is about.

The difference, if you don't know what to listen for, is well non-existent. Sound by 'Heisenberg uncertainty principle' one could say.

Perhaps, you need to graduate from the Home Theater in The Box..:D

Im not only going to buy the HD DVD of Transformers...Im also going to raise the volume two notches and make pretend that there is a lossless track.

ENERGON!

Perhaps, you need to graduate from the Home Theater in The Box..:D

Well, I don't hear a noticeable difference and my 'theater in a box' costs about $5K.

Audio snobs, gotta' love 'em, aye.

Can't wait to hear the DD+ track. This movie is mine. Ascend Acoustics home theater in a box FTW!

Perhaps, you need to graduate from the Home Theater in The Box..:D

meh, only you need the best gear to be able to tell the difference. :confused:

Well, I don't hear a noticeable difference and my 'theater in a box' costs about $5000
C'mon I spent that on one sub.....:D (but I bought another as well)

Those damn audio snobs...


But OB in th $20K forum just spent $134,000 on a pair of speakers....so I guess it's all relative.....;)

Yes, that surprises me too. seems a bit scary for a 4 year old to watch, especially by himself? (sounds like he will since it is in 'his room')

will he comment on the lack of 'soundstage' and 'airyness' since it's not lossless? :p

No lossless? Ya, I guess we should buy the blurry version (SD).

C'mon I spent that on one sub.....:D (but I bought another as well)

Those damn audio snobs...


But OB in th $20K forum just spent $134,000 on a pair of speakers....so I guess it's all relative.....;)
:eek: covers it best.

How old are these releases? They were pretty much early Blu-ray stuff. Your point would have more impact with a newer release.

No problem:

Halloween, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Van Wilder?


Strange.

There are people here who claim to go for the PQ & SQ.

And yet they're going to buy an SD DVD with NTSC picture and DD sound, rather than the HD DVD with 1080p and DD+ sound.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

I'd prefer the disc to have lossless sound (probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but hell, who knows?) and the full studio digital master.

Trouble is, the digital master is in 4k resolution.

So am I never going to buy a BD or HD DVD ever again, because it's only 25% of the resuolution of the studio master?

Are some people here just stupid or lying?

Steve W

+1

This right here should have officially been the last post in this thread.

Why would you buy the DVD. So I don't buy the HD-DVD becase the audio isn't lossless. So insted I should get the non-HD version with even worse sound.

I've only got about a $1000 or so HTiB (yamaha 5790 and JBL speakers, sony powered subwoofer)

I can tell a diffrence sure its not big on my system but I mostly notice what id describe as a cleaner sound. Which allows me to better hear some of the more suttle sounds..

Would lossless make this a better movie?

All kidding aside, this thread is sofa king we todd it.

C'mon I spent that on one sub.....:D (but I bought another as well)

Those damn audio snobs...


But OB in th $20K forum just spent $134,000 on a pair of speakers....so I guess it's all relative.....;)

Whatever floats your boat. I have many hobbies and am not independantly wealthy, so I have to spread the coin around. On the other hand, I worked with an audiophile with a $100K system briefly in DC. The guys house was in a scary neighborhood and he drove a broken down old pickup, but had $100K plus of AV gear.... so I guess it's all what turns your crank in life.

Well I placed my order for 8 copies... its going to be a HDDVD Christmas at the Griswold's this year :)

You had the cassette??? I had to type my programs in from scratch each time. You must have been rich!! :p

10 POKE 133
20 PEEK 132
30 FOR I GETS . . .

I did eventually get a mean version of Pong running. Love those extended function key graphics!!

GAH!

WARNING! Geek alert! Geek alert! WARNING!

;)

Stop it, you're bringing back bad memories of the TRS80 with a WHOPPING 16K of memory.

Then our lab at school got spiffy and purchased some Apple IIes... got some floppy disk action goin' on. I remember having a summer job after my senior year building computers and as partial payment I got to build myself a computer system out of leftover parts... an IBM XT with.... (wait for it).... a 10MB HARD DRIVE!!! Woohoo! That was the shizzle. Those old full-height drives were LOUD!

I'd better stop now... :o

Why would you buy the DVD. So I don't buy the HD-DVD becase the audio isn't lossless. So insted I should get the non-HD version with even worse sound.



It's a sour grapes talking point pushed by the blue brigade because HD DVD has Transformers and they don't. ;)

Dolby True HD on Top Gun made in 1986 but not on Transformers made in 2007.....

Dolby True HD on Top Gun made in 1986 but not on Transformers made in 2007.....

Hey, the BD fans are calling you back for another "lossless comparo" over in the BD forums.

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/97904/0/Megan-DDplus.jpg

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/97902/0/Megan-TrueHD.jpg

PQ should be the same ;)



Not buying the Transformers movie in glorious 1080p picture in your HT because it doesn't have TrueHD is just a cheap excuse. The DD+ audio of this release will sound better over the regular DD of the DVD. I am not going to wait for the lossless sound for this particluar movie. Its available now. I want to see it on my setup now.

To those who posted here on this HD section of AVS that they will rather buy the DVD, why would you do that? You would rather watch this movie in STANDARD DEFINITION 480i over HIGH DEFINTION 1080p? Ask yourself this question, am I making sense?

So swallow your pride, enough of that fanboyishm, are you a fan of the Transformers universe since childhood? You like the movie? Buy the HD DVD and your consience will be clear.

After my last potential 'Thread Closing Post', can I have a second bite at the cherry?

These BD fanboys saying they wouldn't buy 'Transformers' because of the lack of a lossless soundtrack.

Do we know, or has anyone asked how many of them have a policy of boycotting all non-lossless discs of either format? How many only have discs with lossless soundtracks?

Steve W

No offense, but you really have to be at the highest degree of self-delusion to write something like this. I'm format neutral, I buy both. However, it's posts like these that are slowly turning me towards wishing HD DVD carries the day; if only so I won't have to read this type of BS ever again. You would do a lot toward helping your "cause" if you kept this type of absurd rhetoric to a minimum.

Face it, Sony blew it by rushing an incomplete spec to market. How they handle this fact remains to be seen, but to try and sugar coat it by saying it's better than having a "dead" (AKA 'completed" for all but the delusional) spec is the utmost in spin. You aren't dealing with complete rubes here, please don't treat us as such.


No offense taken. Hopefully I won't offend you when I suggest you learn how to analyze things unemotionally. To say that blu-ray was rushed out at 1.0 is like saying that USB 1.0 was rushed out because version 2.0 was so much better. Or perhaps in terms you might appreciate more...HDMI 1.2 was rushed out because clearly HDMI 1.3 is what it should have been all along, right?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the blu-ray approach of defining the basic feature set needed for high-definition movies and calling it the 1.0 specification. Then immediately defining an enhanced feature set and calling it 1.1. Just like there was nothing wrong with USB 1.0, there is nothing wrong with blu-ray 1.0.

Now, you can certainly argue that HD-DVD 1.0 has more features than blu-ray 1.0, and I would agree with you. But you are naive to think HD-DVD's spec is any more finished and finalized than the blu-ray spec. You readily admit that HD-DVD will someday release a 2.0 spec.

I'm just tired of all the crap blu-ray gets for having an incomplete spec. There is nothing incomplete about it. In fact, it's a very reasonable way to roll out a high-def movie format. Start with minimal basic requirements, then add on features and call them later versions of the spec. This allows players of various conformance levels.

What is HD-DVD going to do for mobile players that don't have an ethernet port, just say they are uncompliant? I would rather there be different levels of conformance. Just about every other aspect of audio and video hardware have levels of conformance...my old receiver doesn't handle the latest DTS spec, but that doesn't mean the DTS guys totally screwed up.

I know HD DVD fans desperately wants something to hammer blu-ray over the head with, and blu-ray fan makes equally stupid arguments about HD-DVD (like this stupid thread we are in regarding Transformers not having lossless audio), but if you disagree with the point I am trying to make, why not try to put forth a logical argument as to why, instead of just a knee jerk reaction that it's stupid.

I welcome the debate on this topic because I know I am right. I have hundreds of examples that even you likely readily accept as perfectly normal that are identical to what blu-ray is doing. Not the least of which is that HD DVD is doing the exact same thing...they just haven't come up with the new features yet (though TL51 could very well represent the first volley in this regard).

No offense taken. Hopefully I won't offend you when I suggest you learn how to analyze things unemotionally. To say that blu-ray was rushed out at 1.0 is like saying that USB 1.0 was rushed out because version 2.0 was so much better.


I think the argument is that Blu-Ray profile 1.1 was to be the spec before a player was released but instead of trying to finalise the spec etc it was seen that HD DVD players where being released so in a knee jerk reaction Blu-Ray was rushed out the door unfinished format called 1.0 without the features that where initially going to be incorperated into the player.

Your argument about USB is just not compareable - USB 1.0 was around for years before USB 2.0 was released and 2.0 came about from technological improvements that where not available when 1.0 was released. Can you say the same about the Blu-Ray profiles?

I think the argument is that Blu-Ray profile 1.1 was to be the spec before a player was released but instead of trying to finalise the spec etc it was seen that HD DVD players where being released so in a knee jerk reaction Blu-Ray was rushed out the door unfinished format called 1.0 without the features that where initially going to be incorperated into the player.

Your argument about USB is just not compareable - USB 1.0 was around for years before USB 2.0 was released and 2.0 came about from technological improvements that where not available when 1.0 was released. Can you say the same about the Blu-Ray profiles?

Bingo. My work is done here.

No offense taken. Hopefully I won't offend you when I suggest you learn how to analyze things unemotionally. To say that blu-ray was rushed out at 1.0 is like saying that USB 1.0 was rushed out because version 2.0 was so much better. Or perhaps in terms you might appreciate more...HDMI 1.2 was rushed out because clearly HDMI 1.3 is what it should have been all along, right?

. . .

I welcome the debate on this topic because I know I am right. I have hundreds of examples that even you likely readily accept as perfectly normal that are identical to what blu-ray is doing. Not the least of which is that HD DVD is doing the exact same thing...they just haven't come up with the new features yet (though TL51 could very well represent the first volley in this regard).

Actually, my work is not done. You welcome the debate, OK:

1) I have a PC on my desk that I've been using for 4 years. I needed USB 2.0 compliance because transfers to USB harddrives were taking too long for large file transfers. I ordered a USB 2.0 card for $20 and installed it in 2 minutes. Now I am fully USB 2.0 compliant. Care to show me the upgrade path for the Sony S300 that allows it to be 1.1 compliant for less than 2% of the original cost of the unit?

2) Yes, you can provide hundreds of examples, but most would be from the PC industry. Is it Sony's wish to have their CE division mimic the "planned obsolescence" model of the PC industry? Even worse, do they plan on mimicing this model by shipping one-off units that have not been designed with non-proprietary expansion slots which allow for future upgrades, thus not having the easy expansion/upgrade path that allows the PC industry to get away with their constantly changing standards without the early adopters appearing at the gates with torches in their hands? Is this paradigm shift by Sony's CE division fair to the consumer, or would we rather a longer period of use than the standard "gotta upgrade every 18 months to use the new stuff" that exists in the PC world?

3) About HDMI. I have an HDMI 1.3 compliant receiver and TV. I utilize none of the features of HDMI 1.3 because nothing uses them yet, but I am fully compliant with the finalized 1.3 spec. Care to show me where I can buy a BD unit that is fully compliant with the finalized 1.1 spec?

One of the best soundtracks I've heard on HD was from We Were Soldiers, and that is not Lossless. As long as the Mix is done right, I could care less if it's lossless or not. I'll be getting the HD DVD and enjoying it in my Home Theater room, and if the neighbours start complaining that I'm shaking the building, they can come and join me in watching it too.

+1. It's all in the mix.

DD+ With a great mix is going to sound nearly identical to TrueHD or PCM.:cool:

So many people have stated that they are not Going to buy the Transformers HD-DVD because it doesn’t contain the lossless track. Are you going to buy the DD SD version instead? I would think that the difference between DD and DD+ is much greater then DD+ and lossless.
A different tack. I was just looking over the list of movies I'd like to buy (at $30/movie, I might pare it down a bit):

Underworld (Just picked up last night)
Day after Tomorrow (yeah, it's a doubledip, but HD is like that sometimes)
Fantastic 4 (Silver surfer)
28 days later
28 weeks later
Robocop
AC/DC
2001
Clockwork Orange
Hostel 1&2 (actually if you are Blu-ray horror fan, this season is going to kill your wallet).
King of New York
David Gilmour
Spiderman 3
Oceans
I robot
Close Encounters
Die Harder, Die Harderer, etc...
Life of Brian
Independence Day
Mr & Mrs Smith
POTC 3 (...or maybe not)
Harry Potter 1-5
Blade Runner

There are even some HD-exclusive titles I might take a look at:

Transformers (but no lossless audio, big NO-NO)
Dreck 3 (hmmm, maybe not)
Bourne Ultimatum (no lossless, sigh)
Jack Ryan collection
Star Trek TOS ($200 - OUCH !)
Moody Blues
roy orbison
BattleStar Galactica

I don't know where Transformers fits into this, but it's fairly low on the stocking-stuffer list.

Not to mention the releases coming in Spring 2008.

Oh CRAP. I am trying to decide whether to get an HD-DVD player and the Transformers movie or just get the SD DVD for my son’s “4th“ birthday! Technically he will still be 3 when I give it to him on the 16th(2 days before his birthday).

Yea I know the movie is way to scary for a 4 year old. I plan on editing out all of the scary scenes and recompiling it back into a “PG” edited version. I know I can do this losslessly in SD DVD format. However, I am not sure if I can in HD-DVD format. Maybe my decision has already been made for me!

Too scary? Tranformers is great for little kids IMO. Lots of cool action with an uncomplicated story and a message of tolerance and self sacrifice.

My two-year-old will even watch movies like Resident Evil, Jurassic Park and Dawn of the Dead. I believe in letting him watch whatever he can handle. If he doesn't want to watch it, he will go play in another room. I'll also probably introduce him to alcohol when he is young (8-10) and teach him how to drink responsibly. These approaches are much better IMO. If kid's aren't allowed to experiment in a controlled environment and decide for themselves what they like, they are much more likely to do things in excess in the future.

Star Trek TOS ($200 - OUCH !)

It is selling for $139.99 at Amazon.

too bad it's a combo :(

too bad it's a combo :(

Why? The reviewers who have played with it . . . not one complained about playback issues.

Why? The reviewers who have played with it . . . not one complained about playback issues.


But Lee, you've got to start playing fair - the Blu-Bois are running out of things to complain about so please stop applying logic to your answers ;)

It's a sour grapes talking point pushed by the blue brigade because HD DVD has Transformers and they don't. ;)


AMEN! Ding Ding Ding!

I take it most BD fans should not be buying FOx titles, since most wont be able to hear the lossless codec, and it remains to be seen if the PS3 will get an update to solve this:rolleyes:

AMEN! Ding Ding Ding!

I take it most BD fans should not be buying FOx titles, since most wont be able to hear the lossless codec, and it remains to be seen if the PS3 will get an update to solve this:rolleyes:

The DTS core tracks can actually sound quite good. And we are taking the long view. Sure, I might prefer TrueHD or uncompressed PCM now, but eventually I'll have a source player/preamp/processor solution which can decode DTS HD MA so the software purchase won't be wasted sometime down the road.

In contrast, buying up HD movies without lossless audio now will require a re-purchase later on if you eventually want a version with lossless audio (e.g. "Transformers").

AMEN! Ding Ding Ding!

I take it most BD fans should not be buying FOx titles, since most wont be able to hear the lossless codec, and it remains to be seen if the PS3 will get an update to solve this:rolleyes:

Because no hardware will ever support it? ;)

OH, and guess what Fox titles get a 1.5 DTS track we can hear now, then..............wait for it, lossless too!!

Transformers you get 1.5 DD, and you get buy a new disc when they decide to give lossless to you.

But you won't buy the double-dip because lossless doesnt matter, I forgot.

Why? The reviewers who have played with it . . . not one complained about playback issues.

Gotcha, so 5-10 reviewers is a good sample?

That makes sense.

Because no hardware will ever support it? ;)

OH, and guess what Fox titles get a 1.5 DTS track we can hear now, then..............wait for it, lossless too!!

Transformers you get 1.5 DD, and you get buy a new disc when they decide to give lossless to you.

But you won't buy the double-dip because lossless doesnt matter, I forgot.

Does Lossless matter? . . .Yes. Is it important enough not to buy the movie if it isn't there? . . . No.

Why? The reviewers who have played with it . . . not one complained about playback issues.

Playback issues aside I still hate double sided disks and don't want SD infecting my HD. It would also probably be $90 if they dropped the combos. The price doesn't bother me but the two-sided disks and possible playback issues do. I do not want two sides that can easily be scratched. Combo/twins must die.