Chester Springs, Pa. — Home Theater Specialists of America (HTSA), the $500 million buying group for A/V specialty dealers and installers, has formally confirmed that it is backing Blu-ray Disc technology based on sales trends among its 62 members.

The industry looks to HTSA as an expert for custom home theater, built upon a foundation of the top consumer electronic retailers across the country,” said executive director Richard Glikes. “Based on our member research and observations in the field, it is clear that HTSA customers have made Blu-ray Disc their preferred HD format for movies and other packaged video content.”


Seems like Blu-ray is really dominating the high-end market segment. Interestingly, people who are installing mega theaters are not going dual format, they are choosing Blu-ray only.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html

Plenty of people with high end are going with both. Just read some of the gear from AVS members. I wouldn't be shocked if a larger % of their clients had blu-ray players then HD DVD players for the non-dual format owners.

[/b]

Seems like Blu-ray is really dominating the high-end market segment. Interestingly, people who are installing mega theaters are not going dual format, they are choosing Blu-ray only.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html
Larger mark-up on BD players

Is this the same group that wants to sell you a $1000 universal remote with every home theater instillation?

Is this the same group that wants to sell you a $1000 universal remote with every home theater instillation?

And a $500 glow-in-the-dark HDMI cable?

And a $500 glow-in-the-dark HDMI cable?

Come on... be fair... $499

Is this the same group that wants to sell you a $1000 universal remote with every home theater instillation?

If it was RF, then $1000 would be cheap for a stable, reliable touchscreen!! But likely they are dealing in Crestron, AMX, RTI, etc...

Two things...
I bet their preferred player is not a PS3. But should be!
I bet they are charging MSRP.

I guarantee you that when a customer tells the installer he wants an HD DVD player, they will sell and install an HD DVD player for him.
If I was spending that kind of money and they told me they wouldn't sell me the equipment I wanted, I'd send them packing and contact someone else to do my work.

Come on... be fair... $499

Why the heck doesn't monoprice offer glow in the dark HDMI? :mad:

Why the heck doesn't monoprice offer glow in the dark HDMI? :mad:

I bet Monster Cable, has the patent on it. :p

I can understand Blu-ray having the impression of being the "high-end" choice. But I guess it puzzles me that a high-end installation would not also have a $200 HD DVD player, just for those titles that are unavailable on Blu-ray. It's not as though a consumer with a new high-end installation has any real agenda in this format war. And if they install a very expensive system, only to find that it can't play some exclusive HD DVD release, the customer might get aggravated. Strange.

I guarantee you that when a customer tells the installer he wants an HD DVD player, they will sell and install an HD DVD player for him.
If I was spending that kind of money and they told me they wouldn't sell me the equipment I wanted, I'd send them packing and contact someone else to do my work.

But first that installer would try to convince said customer of the very reall benefits of Blu-ray. Sadly, the folks who have that kind of disposable income probably don't want to do the homework on what kind of equipment they should get and trust the "installer" to take care of it.

I don't see the logic in this. If I'm spending big bucks on a custom install, I'm getting both no question.

LMAO... what a poor decision on their part! They're going to have a lot of unhappy customers once Blu-ray goes the way of the dodo bird.

LOL...yah and you have no support proving that...in fact if someone were to just look at the figures they would say blu-ray is winning

But first that installer would try to convince said customer of the very reall benefits of Blu-ray. Sadly, the folks who have that kind of disposable income probably don't want to do the homework on what kind of equipment they should get and trust the "installer" to take care of it.

For many, that is the best relationship to have.

I had a pump installed to my irrigation system to pump lake water for my sprinkler system...I suppose I could've gone and farted around comparing pumps on line, but my long time irrigation company used and recommended a certain pump (that they ultimately installed for the system). And I wasn't going to bother researching a pump. They installed many, they have experiencewith them and they are relaible and give great service. It was a easy choice to take the recommendation. It cost as much as a decent Blu Ray player. I'll bet many who use custom installers do not micromanage the equipment choices, they just want it installed and easy to use and take the installers recommendations..

It makes sense that the higher end goes to Blu-Ray. After all they clearly got more money to burn. A $500 Incomplete 1.0 player, a $2000 more complete 1.1 player (Denon), then $500 on a finalized 2.0 player.

These guys are probably anticipating having to install two or three players in the same peoples household.

I bet Monster Cable, has the patent on it. :p

I could see the price for it, if it strobed in response to the current bitrate. Just like on the Enterprise, the faster the warp speed, the faster it strobes. In case you don't have a PS3 with a bit rate meter. :D

It makes sense that the higher end goes to Blu-Ray. After all they clearly got more money to burn. A $500 Incomplete 1.0 player, a $2000 more complete 1.1 player (Denon), then $500 on a finalized 2.0 player.

These guys are probably anticipating having to install two or three players in the same peoples household.

Good point.....And the customer will always know they are up to date (caring less about the cost).

It makes sense that the higher end goes to Blu-Ray. After all they clearly got more money to burn. A $500 Incomplete 1.0 player, a $2000 more complete 1.1 player (Denon), then $500 on a finalized 2.0 player.

These guys are probably anticipating having to install two or three players in the same peoples household.

I don't get it, if they're going to spend that much money, why not get both. It seems like a no-brainer. I always wondered why there were so many blu-ray only folks, when the could add HD DVD for only a few hundred more. And when your talking about the kind of money you're spending when an installer is involved....

I bet those customers will be thrilled when they can't play 50% of the HDM out there...

LOL...yah and you have no support proving that...in fact if someone were to just look at the figures they would say blu-ray is winning
Yeah, I guess that's why LG is no longer BD exclusive. I guess that's why Samsung is no longer BD exclusive. I guess that's why Paramount and DreamWorks dumped Blu-ray all together...

I have a question related to custom installs but only slightly related to this thread...

If HTSA were to install HD-DVD rather than BD would they typically also provide a network cable installation and wire the player into the home computer network? I didn't think custom home theater installers typically did that, but maybe now with network enabled DVRs they do? Or does it vary a lot?

HIGH END INSTALLER: OK, sir, your state-of-the-art, Blu-ray only home theater is now finished and ready. And it onlly cost you $150,000!

CUSTOMER: Great! Looks wonderful. Let's test it out by watching Transformers!

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Uh, no, you can't.

CUSTOMER: Batman Begins?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Um...

CUSTOMER: The Bourne Supremacy?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: (whistling, hands in pockets)

CUSTOMER: The Matrix?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: (exits, stage left)

I don't get it, if they're going to spend that much money, why not get both. It seems like a no-brainer. I always wondered why there were so many blu-ray only folks, when the could add HD DVD for only a few hundred more. And when your talking about the kind of money you're spending when an installer is involved....
I'd bet in a good number of cases it's either ignorance (not aware of HD DVD at all) or avoidance of confusion (a lot of people refuse to buy two different formats due to the hassle of worrying about which discs go in which player).

After all, Blu-ray and HD DVDs look virtually physically identical on visual inspection. If you're one of those people who occasionally has titles that accidentally "migrate" into the wrong cases, this can be a sore point to being a dual format owner.

I am sure if a customer asked, they oblige.

This is a "close-knit" group of people who work very closely with the main supporters of BD, so it's hardly a revelation that they "voted" for BD to be their official format. It wouldn't have cost much to get this vote for BD.

This is no-where near as important as the Association of DVD replicators choosing HD DVD.

Also, as someone has said here, it makes sense for them to recommend the most expensive format, however, no installer would install against a customer's wishes, if they said HD DVD.

I sensed this coming when a couple articles were bandied around a few weeks ago saying that installers should recommend Bluray.

But the TRULY smart installers will be putting in Dual-Format Hybrid players for their customers, not one or the other. (Unless of course it makes sense to charge the customer to replace the setup with the winning (HD DVD) format later on again! :)

My non-techie Mom asked me to go buy her a Blu-Ray player because she wanted to watch HD movies...she had only heard of Blu Ray...I'm starting to think it's going to win because of Joe six packs like her.

I'd say 92% of their clients chose Blu-ray because they are looking for highest quality that is available, not ok quality.

+1

I'd say 92% of their clients chose Blu-ray because they are looking for highest quality that is available, not ok quality.

You don't know what you're talking about, newbie.

yeah what does a 1080p hd dvd player cost?

Most of the ultra high end HT owners don't know HDMI from a hole in the ground. They need $1000+ remotes because they don't know how to do anything manually. It's all about outdoing they're neighbors and friends(not the ones on these types of forums of course, they actually seek out knowledge).

Also as others have stated, they can mark-up blu-ray through the roof. The $3500 blu-ray changer for example, probably has HT installers salivating at what they could charge to put those in a system. Those types of options are simply not available on the HD DVD side of things and for good reasons. Mass market adoption being one.

yeah what does a 1080p hd dvd player cost?

Amazon has the HD-A20 for $300.

Plus seven free HD-DVDs.

Yeah, I guess that's why LG is no longer BD exclusive. I guess that's why Samsung is no longer BD exclusive. I guess that's why Paramount and DreamWorks dumped Blu-ray all together...

Yah and is why BD is outselling hd dvd 66 to 33 and intel dropped hd dvd exclusivity and why adobe went blu-ray exclusive and so did this group

I think that is the piint of the thread. Many could care less what it costs...

Perhaps many of these installers installed many HD DVD players only to return every 2 months to install another firmware fix to the 'delight' of many annoyed customers. No such subscription for firmware fixes needed for Blu Ray. They are generally far more stable out of the box.

[/b]

Seems like Blu-ray is really dominating the high-end market segment. Interestingly, people who are installing mega theaters are not going dual format, they are choosing Blu-ray only.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html

Thankfully, this should be the final nail in the coffin for HD DVD!!!!!!!!!! So long HD DVD, it's been nice to know you!!

LMAO... what a poor decision on their part! They're going to have a lot of unhappy customers once Blu-ray goes the way of the dodo bird.

Ummm... yeah... Do you really believe this will happen? I mean aside from your snide comments, do you actually believe that Blu-ray Disc will go away?

I am really interested to know... and if you do, it would be even more interesting to know why you believe this...

Thankfully, this should be the final nail in the coffin for HD DVD!!!!!!!!!! So long HD DVD, it's been nice to know you!!

Man, that coffin must be REALLY big. How many nails have been pounded into it by now?

I think that is the piint of the thread. Many could care less what it costs...

Perhaps many of these installers installed many HD DVD players only to return every 2 months to install another firmware fix to the 'delight' of many annoyed customers. No such subscription for firmware fixes needed for Blu Ray. They are generally far more stable out of the box.

Wow...just...wow. I wish I had your blu-ray player.....Wow.

I really WISH that I could get some firmware updates for my 1200.

Of course, I'm sure there are a few HD DVD owners that wished they had my stable/reliable HD-A1 too.

So........who are these people again?

My favorite dealer initially recommended holding off on purchasing Blu-ray or HD DVD until a clear winner was obvious. Both him and his mostly high-end customer based were really looking into the game about the same time I was. Then he picked out the LG Dual format player as a useful and safe "transition" product. Expensive, yes, but given the client base (high end audiophile systems/home theater systems), maybe a drop in the bucket. They sold fairly briskly. Now that the LG has been discontinued, they are picking the next dual format player for sales/custom installations.

Of course, I don't know what their relationship (if any) is to Home Theater specialists of America....

So........who are these people again?

I guess you missed the thread regarding the Forrester research report indicating that the BDA need to get more agressive advertising. These new members may be part of that.

Or were you referring to the High end installer group? This is the first I've heard of them. I believe they service the .001% of the population that can/will afford their services and apparently those of the BDA. ;)

I guess you missed the thread regarding the Forrester research report indicating that the BDA need to get more agressive advertising. These new members may be part of that.

Or were you referring to the High end installer group?


The high end installer group.

My non-techie Mom asked me to go buy her a Blu-Ray player because she wanted to watch HD movies...she had only heard of Blu Ray...I'm starting to think it's going to win because of Joe six packs like her.

Wasn't there some statistic released by that research company that Sony and Toshiba are always quoting that stated that 29% of the general populace was aware of HD DVD vs 20% who had heard of blu-ray? HD DVD's advantages have always been the cheaper cost and the easier to comprehend name for J6P.

Makes sense, they're more than likely basing this decision off sales figures.

Like someone said before though, if you're rich enough to hire companies like this to install your equipment for you then why not have the best of both worlds?

So........who are these people again?

I dunno but they have 63 members listed here (mostly specialty a/v shops) http://www.htsa.com/memberDirectory.php?firstRecord=0 (mostly specialty a/v shops).

I think that is the piint of the thread. Many could care less what it costs...

Perhaps many of these installers installed many HD DVD players only to return every 2 months to install another firmware fix to the 'delight' of many annoyed customers. No such subscription for firmware fixes needed for Blu Ray. They are generally far more stable out of the box.


Well.....methinks the Blu-ray players aren't immune to firmware fixes. I suspect my (dual format) unit has available to it monthly updates to the firmware (whether or not they are useful to me is another question). I've only taken advantage of one (1) update which was downloaded via internet and someone else did the grunt work to put it on a DVD so I could upload it. I've heard other Blu-ray players have needed firmware fixes just to play certain Blu-ray discs.

...its a high end niche subgroup of CEDIA members

HTSA Membership: 59 and CountingDecember 27, 2006

The Home Theater Specialists of America (HTSA) buying group announced the addition of its 59th member: Audio Video Excellence (AVX) of Homewood, Ala., near Birmingham.

The company, started in 1999, specializes in custom design and installation of home theater, home automation, lighting control and multi-room audio systems for both residential and commercial applications. It has locations in Alabama and the Florida panhandle, and soon will open in Nashville, Tenn.

“In our efforts to maintain an efficient and well-managed organization, we recognize that there are great benefits in working with a highly acclaimed group like HTSA,” said AVX Owner Jared Lewis. “We bring to the table a heritage of excellent technical performance together with an unrelenting resolve to provide our customers with the very best in products and services. We currently work with some of the best vendors in our industry and would like to continue to improve on these relationships both for AVX and its partner vendors. We believe that our membership in HTSA would enhance our relationships with many of these vendors and possibly some new ones.”

Said HTSA Executive Director Richard Glikes, “Jared Lewis and AVX represent the next wave of young lions to prosper in our complicated business. We have admired his tenacity and the growth of his company. Sometimes you’re the teacher and sometimes you’re the student. This is truly the case with HTSA and AVX.”

Well.....methinks the Blu-ray players aren't immune to firmware fixes. I suspect my (dual format) unit has available to it monthly updates to the firmware (whether or not they are useful to me is another question). I've only taken advantage of one (1) update which was downloaded via internet and someone else did the grunt work to put it on a DVD so I could upload it. I've heard other Blu-ray players have needed firmware fixes just to play certain Blu-ray discs.

Don't try using simple facts to reason with The Bland. It's futile.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6478975.html?q=htsa

That's because HTSA is looking beyond video and the expected promotional carnage to the greater riches offered by lighting, systems design and whole-home control.

"All Thanksgivings are bloody in the CE business," he told TWICE in a post-CEDIA interview. "But we don't have to respond to Black Friday promotions. We're not in that business."

Indeed, video is "not that important" to HTSA members, Glikes declared. "Design, lighting and control are much more important to our business."

The group's de-emphasis of video is a reaction to precipitous price declines in flat panel, which Glikes attributes in large measure to the warehouse club channel. "The clubs have had a tremendous impact," he observed. "They're taking more and more share now that prices are down and consumers are more comfortable with the technology. And when you have a tertiary brand sitting next to a Sony, a Sharp and a Panasonic, it legitimizes that other brand

So........who are these people again?

I feel the same way. As a bluray fan, Id like to get some news that actually matters. While, Ill never complain about more companies jumping on the bandwagon, but Id like to see some companies that actually matter.

Many of these companies that make up the HTSA are the ultra high end. They are brought in to do the elite installs, seating and interiors, design for estates, complex calibration and networking, luxury fit and finish. Many people would hire one of these companies when building a new home.

It says a lot that these professionals are going to install Blu-ray only.

This consortium accounts for over $500 million in sales each year.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6478975.html?q=htsa


Well are you surprised that they are not aiming for the Wal-mart crowd?

You can hire almost anyone these days that will calibrate your display to D65.

These are the companies that build something special, beyond just the ultimate PQ and AQ.

If you want a real movie theater in your home just like Regal Cinemas or AMC, these are the guys you would call when making that huge addition onto the house and starting a $250,000 construction project.

I think that is the piint of the thread. Many could care less what it costs...

Perhaps many of these installers installed many HD DVD players only to return every 2 months to install another firmware fix to the 'delight' of many annoyed customers. No such subscription for firmware fixes needed for Blu Ray. They are generally far more stable out of the box.

How ridiculous.

The PS3 -- which represents by far the majority of the BD players out there -- has had more than a dozen FW updates...2 or 3 of which were issued to fix bugs caused by previous FW patches.

All BD players have had FW patches released -- even the newest Sammy 1400 (patch for DTS: MA).

Many of these companies that make up the HTSA are the ultra high end. They are brought in to do the elite installs, seating and interiors, design for estates, complex calibration and networking, luxury fit and finish. Many people would hire one of these companies when building a new home.

It says a lot that these professionals are going to install Blu-ray only.

This consortium accounts for over $500 million in sales each year.

Do you actually know their primary design goal? It isn't picture quality or audio quality.

It IS aesthetics/design and control. Do some research of your own for once before posting this crap.

I could NEVER recommend BR or HD DVD to anyone without making sure they understood the situation. People don't like surprises after they've spent kilobucks. This could certainly get a salesperson in trouble.

One format must die, I'm afraid. Dual production, distribution, and inventory will be unacceptable to those in the business. I think HD DVD makes more sense, but logic seldom prevails in these things. I'm certainly not ready to make a prediction. There are many words printed in this forum which must someday be eaten.

Dave

Do you actually know their primary design goal? It isn't picture quality or audio quality.

It IS aesthetics/design and control. Do some research of your own for once before posting this crap.

I grabbed an example. Three of the companies are members of the HTSA.

My guess is the picture and audio quality are just fine. ;)

Its kind of amazing that you would call this crap or insinuate that these people don't create reference theaters. It all depends on the priorities of the client.

HD DVD is the low end. Get over it.



http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7793/116rrom0.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=116rrom0.jpg)

Many of these companies that make up the HTSA are the ultra high end. They are brought in to do the elite installs, seating and interiors, design for estates, complex calibration and networking, luxury fit and finish. Many people would hire one of these companies when building a new home.

It says a lot that these professionals are going to install Blu-ray only.

This consortium accounts for over $500 million in sales each year.

It says NOTHING!! Rich homeowners will NEVER factor into any HD format winner. What.......HD media has approx. 1.5% market share of shiny disc sales, and out of that, the .005% well-off have BR only!!! Stop grasping at straws and pull your head from.....................

It says NOTHING!! Rich homeowners will NEVER factor into any HD format winner. What.......HD media has approx. 1.5% market share of shiny disc sales, and out of that, the .005% well-off have BR only!!! Stop grasping at straws and pull your head from.....................


Look at the pictures I linked at the bottom of the last page. The people who create the best home theaters in the world think that Blu-ray is the only relevant format. That is saying a lot.

When money is not a concern people will always buy whats better and in this case its Blu-ray.

I'd say 92% of their clients chose Blu-ray because they are looking for highest quality that is available, not ok quality.

*shakes head at tool fan*

How crazy is this?:eek:

If you are a pro installer and someone is putting tens of thousands (or in some cases hundreds of thousands) into a pro install there is only one answer. Install both formats! Honestly, at this price point wouldn't you want the best performance and choice of titles? There are great players on both formats to accomplish this. Surely going exclusive is an asinine concept for a pro installer with the price points we are talking about. If I had these kind of resources I would be pretty pissed that I couldn't watch a movie because it was HD-DVD exclusive and my expensive, profesisonally installed" home theatre couldn't play it.

When money is not a concern people will always buy whats better and in this case its Blu-ray.

Let me fix this for you:

When money is not a concern people will always buy whats more expensive and in this case its Blu-ray.

Ummm... yeah... Do you really believe this will happen? I mean aside from your snide comments, do you actually believe that Blu-ray Disc will go away?
It will not go away completely. It'll be relegated to a niche market. Think UMD. HD DVD will be for the mass market.

Look at the pictures I linked at the bottom of the last page. The people who create the best home theaters in the world think that Blu-ray is the only relevant format. That is saying a lot.
Of course they'll say that. They bought into the false notion that Blu-ray was a "foregone conclusion" until reality smacks them over the head and they start to complain about all the HD DVD supporters and diminishing BD support. :rolleyes:

When money is not a concern people will always buy whats better and in this case its Blu-ray.
Good grief. Do you really believe that nonsense? Besides, the 2% of those where 'money is no concern' is such a small segment of the population, and you know what? They'll probably buy both a Blu-ray and HD DVD player, or get a dual format player. For the other 98% of the population money is a concern, and they're choosing HD DVD in increasing numbers.

Installers won't jeopardized their reputation on a format that may go under. I am sure they will offer the suggestion but won't force people into buying BR. In a business were reputation and referrals are key I am sure they are taking the diplomatic approach to this by saving face more so then spearheading and BR spin project.

HD DVD is the low end. Get over it. I call BS on this statement.

wahh. Thats so whinny its kinda sad. :rolleyes:

Thanks for telling us your opinion on something you probably haven't watched. Nice to have you join AVS last month to share your opinion.

Its probably not the consensus here that HD DVD, despite having lower overall hardware prices approaching mass market pricing on its most affordable players is not delivering outstanding video and audio quality, with at this moment more advanced interactive content than Blu-ray.

HD DVD is the low end. Get over it.

oh please..... :p

Since the Viacom decision and now with Universal Paramount Dreamworks publishing only in HD DVD and DVD high end owners will demand that a high end dual format be installed or HD DVD player be included right next to a Blu-ray box.

Thats what Onkyo Integra Denon Marantz Meridian Samsung and LG are aiming at as well as probably a few other CE manufacturers.

A group might have a preference but its gonna be tough telling your high end client that your quoted system won't play half the High Def titles available.

Me thinks a dual format player is going be more recommended in these types of installations than a pure Blu-ray player.

You did not here the cheers at the LG booth at CES last January from the high end installers attending their booth show. THe new LG and Samsung players got a lot of attention at CEDIA also.

meh

What is really interesting to me is that they choose BD over a dual format player which would seem to perhaps be the obvious choice for people with big budgets.

I guess that the dual players are/were somewhat of a compromise for the BD side...?

I cant believe the 'tards that respond with BD is better garbage. I support both formats and I have watched movies on both. 100% interchangable as far as PQ and AQ is concerned. I understand that there are those that MUST make themselves feel better and claim that the more expensive choice is the better choice. Fine, egos need food like any pet..... BUT.....C'mon....:rolleyes:

Besides, the titles are about the same price. The BD players are a few hundred more. Its not like were talking thousands of dollars here, you idiots. Whattaya think it makes you "cooler" because you have a Blu-ray player? "Ohhhh, Spanky must be rich...he bought a BD player." Seriously...try dating.....a GIRL.....:D

HD DVD = BD; BD = HD DVD

Of course they install Blu-Ray exclusively. They know that they'll be called back to update to Profile 1.1...and then again for Profile 2.0...

Is it any wonder? It's a buying group. Toshiba isn't a line they carry and Sony is. Of course 92% of the HD player purchases made through them by their participating dealers are going to be BD. LG and their combo player must have made up the balance. I noticed that they carry Integra too, so maybe they will start selling some HD DVD players in the next few months. The press release is no different than Value Electronics hosting a press conference and announcing that consumers have spoken and have made HD DVD the format of choice since they sell more HD DVD than BD. At the end of the day it means nothing.

http://www.htsa.com/manufacturers.php

Big Deal. These people install $50,000+ HT's. One BD player in each HT and many in the past have been installing the DF player which will increase. Technically Samsung's 5000 is a BD player as is LG's. They play both formats. It's a no brainer. The HT owner can buy any movie they want. 50/50 chance either format gets bought.

/begin opinion

With all due respect to this group, it's not the small group of people that spend big bucks that decide the winning format, it's the large consumer-base that spends little over a long period of time that does.

/end opinion

HD DVD is the low end. Get over it.


Apparently Sony's arrogance spreads through direct contact with Blu-ray discs.

It's pretty sad when Blu-ray supporters have to resort to saying things like this.

Whatever, dude! Off to watch my "low end" Heroes HD-DVDs, which are cooler and more sophisticated technically than ANYTHING that's been released on Blu-ray thus far. :D

...its a high end niche subgroup of CEDIA members
Correct -I'd call it more of a social club than anything - It might have only taken one dinner party to get all the votes. :)

Absolutely - you'd be asking for upset customers later if you didn't go over this recommendation of a dual-format player with them first.How crazy is this?:eek:

If you are a pro installer and someone is putting tens of thousands (or in some cases hundreds of thousands) into a pro install there is only one answer. Install both formats! Honestly, at this price point wouldn't you want the best performance and choice of titles? There are great players on both formats to accomplish this. Surely going exclusive is an asinine concept for a pro installer with the price points we are talking about. If I had these kind of resources I would be pretty pissed that I couldn't watch a movie because it was HD-DVD exclusive and my expensive, profesisonally installed" home theatre couldn't play it.

+1

-1 :p

I'd say 92% of their clients chose Blu-ray because they are looking for highest quality that is available, not ok quality.

Come back when you have something meaningful to contribute instead of pulling asinine crap out of your butt.

Totally retarded IMHO. Somebody is paying mucho bucks for a custom solution and this group of fanboys puts in a system that can't play Universal, Paramount, Dreamworks, and all the independent HD DVD studio HD releases?

And up to now, the only dual format player was the LG that isn't even HD DVD compliant and that's what they are putting in for some of their customers? At least the Samsung is supposed to come out next month which looks to be a pretty nice duallie.

If there's any justice, some of their well heeled customers will open their eyes when they can't play the HD DVD exclusive movies and demand that the situation be rectified at the installers expense. (maybe one of the customers will be that judge who sued his dry cleaner for 100 million dollars for misplacing his pants).

I don't get it, if they're going to spend that much money, why not get both. It seems like a no-brainer. I always wondered why there were so many blu-ray only folks, when the could add HD DVD for only a few hundred more. And when your talking about the kind of money you're spending when an installer is involved....

You don't get it..they DON'T MAKE MONEY with HD DVD it's simple as that.

$200-$300 for fully featured player and $500 for upper scale player like XA2 or A35 will give pretty much same quality of HD as $500-$2000 Blu-Ray 1.0 players. Keeping in mind that HD DVD is fully done, meaning no upgrades, the damn thing just works, they can't justify upgrades as they will with Blu-Ray.

So user will end up having same quality with one device, without the need for upgrade and we'll figure out that Blu-Ray is ass anyway you look at it.

But if they just put in $500-$1500 Blu-Ray player now, that will need to be upgraded again with the $500-$1500 a year from now, and then another $500-$1000 a little bit after that, then sure they'll push it.

Math is simple, even if we take XA2

XA2 = $500 now and no costs in the future = total cost of ownership (just the discs you buy) + ability to have combos and super interactive features
Any Blu-Ray player except Denon = $500-$1500 now, $500-$1500 in less then a year and again $500-$1000 after that = total cost of ownership (best case scenario) $2000 + discs you buy + very little extra features (at least for next year and a half)

So let me simplify = over the next 2 years HD DVD costs $500, Blu-Ray costs $2000+. LOL!

HD DVDs completness is a blessing and a curse. It is SO GOOD that it simply doesn't make money for retailers and people who sell it.

HD DVDs completness is a blessing and a curse. It is SO GOOD that it simply doesn't make money for retailers and people who sell it.

That does sound really great! I wonder how many successful companies use such a business model?

I grabbed an example. Three of the companies are members of the HTSA.

My guess is the picture and audio quality are just fine. ;)

Its kind of amazing that you would call this crap or insinuate that these people don't create reference theaters. It all depends on the priorities of the client.

HD DVD is the low end. Get over it.

Ah, so you post a picture from DEC 2001 and expect that to support your weak point?

Your posts are frankly absurd.

I didn't insinuate that they don't create reference theaters with great picture and sound -- I said that their FOCUS is on aesthetic design. Your picture actually PROVES my point.

You have been proven wrong time and time again. You continue to post blatant misinformation and continue to try and cause controversy.

Why? What is your agenda?

Other forums may tolerate it but here at AV SCIENCE, you will be called out on it.

The only "low end" here is the quality of your posts. Take a deep breath and relax.

You don't get it..they DON'T MAKE MONEY with HD DVD it's simple as that.

$200-$300 for fully featured player and $500 for upper scale player like XA2 or A35 will give pretty much same quality of HD as $500-$2000 Blu-Ray 1.0 players. Keeping in mind that HD DVD is fully done, meaning no upgrades, the damn thing just works, they can't justify upgrades as they will with Blu-Ray.

So user will end up having same quality with one device, without the need for upgrade and we'll figure out that Blu-Ray is ass anyway you look at it.

But if they just put in $500-$1500 Blu-Ray player now, that will need to be upgraded again with the $500-$1500 a year from now, and then another $500-$1000 a little bit after that, then sure they'll push it.

Math is simple, even if we take XA2

XA2 = $500 now and no costs in the future = total cost of ownership (just the discs you buy) + ability to have combos and super interactive features
Any Blu-Ray player except Denon = $500-$1500 now, $500-$1500 in less then a year and again $500-$1000 after that = total cost of ownership (best case scenario) $2000 + discs you buy + very little extra features (at least for next year and a half)

So let me simplify = over the next 2 years HD DVD costs $500, Blu-Ray costs $2000+. LOL!

HD DVDs completness is a blessing and a curse. It is SO GOOD that it simply doesn't make money for retailers and people who sell it.
This post is so full of FUD and illogic that I would feel dirty even trying to respond to all of it, but I will add a couple of things.

While Toshiba is certainly not making any money off of HD DVD, you can be sure that paramount is...at least for about 17 more months.

Let's be clear. EVERY Blu-ray movie will play on 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 players. No new player will have to be purchased unless a few special features are wanted (read a small subset of the extras on the disc). I will keep my 1.0 profile player forever and it will play all Blu-ray movies out now and all that will come out in the future. I have no need for PIP or online content, so I won't need another player. Neither will 99% of Blu-ray owners.

Your bias clouds your judgement.

That does sound really great! I wonder how many successful companies use such a business model?

Yes, what you just said actually points out why Blu-Ray is completely anti-consumer and works in the interest of businesses first. This is why it's not hard for retailers to lie and decieve consumers, sell an inferior product. The agenda is very simple, sell now, then sell more later and then RESELL again the 3rd time and all at a price premium.

It is not true that HD DVD's business model is wrong. HD DVD has pretty much a perfect product for consumer, it has long term benefits for consumer, has the "hook" and beyond movies experience and of course quality.

HD DVDs model is, build a great platform, and continue working mass quantities, low price model + razor/blades model, all of which really benefits consumers as they get quality for cheap and have the control of how much they want to spend in addition.

It's very simple actually.

This post is so full of FUD and illogic that I would feel dirty even trying to respond to all of it, but I will add a couple of things.

While Toshiba is certainly not making any money off of HD DVD, you can be sure that paramount is...at least for about 17 more months.

Let's be clear. EVERY Blu-ray movie will play on 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 players. No new player will have to be purchased unless a few special features are wanted (read a small subset of the extras on the disc). I will keep my 1.0 profile player forever and it will play all Blu-ray movies out now and all that will come out in the future. I have no need for PIP or online content, so I won't need another player. Neither will 99% of Blu-ray owners.

Your bias clouds your judgement.

LOL..and you call yourself objective? If you don't care about these it doesn't mean that 99% of people doesn't. Get over yourself.

I, I, I, I, I, = 99% wants this

LOL!

Do you understand that a product sold that cannot READ ALL features of the discs IS incomplete product! This fact is not ADVERTISED ANYWHERE. It's a msleading and deceitful tactic for people to unknowingly rebuy players.

If those features are not important it sure is news to Disney who is trumpeting all new 1.1 features on their new upcoming titles.

You can try to explain to the people who buy Blu-Ray players why they won't be able to use the Cine Explore features and others on the disc which has been advertised INSANELY by Disney.

I have no need for PIP or online content, so I won't need another player. Neither will 99% of Blu-ray owners.

.

Yeah... sure... I believe you. ;)

Sooner or later curiosity will get you and you'll be out buying the 1.1 about a week after they hit the shelves.

Yeah... sure... I believe you. ;)

Sooner or later curiosity will get you and you'll be out buying the 1.1 about a week after they hit the shelves.

Ahhhhhhhhh . . . but can it also do 2.0 - BD Live? Or is this going to be a yearly upgrade, buy a new player for BD owners?

With all due respect to this group, it's not the small group of people that spend big bucks that decide the winning format, it's the large consumer-base that spends little over a long period of time that does.


This may be but I wouldn't underestimate the effect of the perceptions things like this can make. Just look at how J6P is still convinced to this day that Bose is the be-all-end-all of audio quality.

Now... seriously...

After pricing the PS3 at a stratospheric price (and not learning the lesson), and losing Paramount because of costs, the Blu-ray camp still thinks that any news regarding its super-rich "we are not just people" clientèle has any meaning?

when i was a contractor in the Hamptons, thats eastern long island. I would run across one these installers, they are very intense I mean really LOL they are a white glove very high end contractor group.

they make 4-5 five times what i could make doing work that is about the same as i do. They are like the over priced home decorators, if they say Blu-ray is the new thing the ignorant rich will see it as the second coming.

It then will be picked up by more middle level installers, some will not touch a new format till it become popular with the high end first.

It was this fact that pushed plasma sets in the Hamptons when they first came out. It became a status symbol, i would see 2-3 10K plasmas in weekend homes where the people would almost NEVER watch TV. A guy i did painting work for had a Plasma behind a painting above his fire place, he had it installed and forgot it was there !!!LOL for 3 years! So if the high end installers tell these people there is only Blu-ray, well thats all there is.

[/b]

Seems like Blu-ray is really dominating the high-end market segment. Interestingly, people who are installing mega theaters are not going dual format, they are choosing Blu-ray only.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html

This is from the same crowd of installers that do not use HDMI connections for video and audio to avoid being called by end user that complain about HDMI stability...

HIGH END INSTALLER: OK, sir, your state-of-the-art, Blu-ray only home theater is now finished and ready. And it onlly cost you $150,000!

CUSTOMER: Great! Looks wonderful. Let's test it out by watching Transformers!

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Uh, no, you can't.

CUSTOMER: Batman Begins?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Um...

CUSTOMER: The Bourne Supremacy?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: (whistling, hands in pockets)

CUSTOMER: The Matrix?



HIGH-END INSTALLER: (exits, stage left)

Haha . . . . . . :D

I hope one of them is reading this thread :)

Just a quick check, 500M$ of 25k systems lead to 20000 players. The release of Transformer will sell more player than this. This crowd will have no impact on the war.

when i was a contractor in the Hamptons, thats eastern long island. I would run across one these installers, they are very intense I mean really LOL they are a white glove very high end contractor group.

they make 4-5 five times what i could make doing work that is about the same as i do. They are like the over priced home decorators, if they say Blu-ray is the new thing the ignorant rich will see it as the second coming.

It then will be picked up by more middle level installers, some will not touch a new format till it become popular with the high end first.

It was this fact that pushed plasma sets in the Hamptons when they first came out. It became a status symbol, i would see 2-3 10K plasmas in weekend homes where the people would almost NEVER watch TV. A guy i did painting work for had a Plasma behind a painting above his fire place, he had it installed and forgot it was there !!!LOL for 3 years! So if the high end installers tell these people there is only Blu-ray, well thats all there is.

The difference in your story is that at the point of Plasmas being adopted there was no alternate solution. DLP vs plasmas had absolutely no chance.

But with HD DVD is different. Rich folks can be fooled in buying Blu-Ray, but J6P and middle class in general will go and say, hey that HD DVD looks pretty good too I'm gonna get that for $150. They might concede to Blu-Ray is better perception but that won't change the fact that they will buy HD DVD.

HIGH END INSTALLER: OK, sir, your state-of-the-art, Blu-ray only home theater is now finished and ready. And it onlly cost you $150,000!

CUSTOMER: Great! Looks wonderful. Let's test it out by watching Transformers!

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Uh, no, you can't.

CUSTOMER: Batman Begins?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: Um...

CUSTOMER: The Bourne Supremacy?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: (whistling, hands in pockets)

CUSTOMER: The Matrix?

HIGH-END INSTALLER: (exits, stage left)

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAAHAH

That literally made my WEEK!! God I can't stop laughing.

... So what are they going to do when a customer requests an HD DVD player? Turn down the thousands of dollars the customer is paying because they only offer Blu Ray players?

My bet is that they'll try to convince these consumers that they don't need an HD DVD player, until those same consumers later realize that they were shafted from many titles exclusively on HD DVD.

Personally I'd show the door to anyone refusing to install what I want and paying for. Period.

Good point.....And the customer will always know they are up to date (caring less about the cost).

Of course many people out there, like me, don't like to triple dip on players. But each to his own.

Is this the same group that wants to sell you a $1000 universal remote with every home theater instillation?
That $1,000 remote will still not work with the PS3. ;)

Well.....methinks the Blu-ray players aren't immune to firmware fixes. I suspect my (dual format) unit has available to it monthly updates to the firmware (whether or not they are useful to me is another question). I've only taken advantage of one (1) update which was downloaded via internet and someone else did the grunt work to put it on a DVD so I could upload it. I've heard other Blu-ray players have needed firmware fixes just to play certain Blu-ray discs.

And the Bland (Jeff) has the BD10 which has had a number of firmware upgrades, even questioning the blu-ray forum whether he should upgrade to the latest release (at the time) because there were problems. He also sent his player into service.

I think that is the piint of the thread. Many could care less what it costs...

Perhaps many of these installers installed many HD DVD players only to return every 2 months to install another firmware fix to the 'delight' of many annoyed customers. No such subscription for firmware fixes needed for Blu Ray. They are generally far more stable out of the box.
You are joking right? :confused:

Do a little research on the PS3 and you will quickly discover that NOTHING has had more software updates.

I know becuase I have one.

You are joking right? :confused:

Do a little research on the PS3 and you will quickly discover that NOTHING has had more software updates.

I know becuase I have one.


Well ,the Ps3 is at version 1.9

while toshiba 2nd gen's are up to 2.5
So it would appear they've had more updates. With a little research.


I'm glad both are updated.


YAY FOR UPDATES YAY

Well ,the Ps3 is at version 1.9

while toshiba 2nd gen's are up to 2.5
So it would appear they've had more updates. With a little research.


I'm glad both are updated.


YAY FOR UPDATES YAY

Hm, okay..so let me get this straight..you are comparing firmware updates that go pretty much from 2.3 to 2.5 for example (as internal coding it goes with odd numbers I believe, 1.1, 1.3, 1.5 but I'm not 100%) so it's actually less then 14 updates for oh let's say 7 or 8 different devices to almost 10 revisions in firmware for only 1 device.

Yeah, that's totally comparable.

Well ,the Ps3 is at version 1.9

while toshiba 2nd gen's are up to 2.5
So it would appear they've had more updates. With a little research.


I'm glad both are updated.


YAY FOR UPDATES YAY
Check your facts my friend.

You forgot a few versions for the PS3... 1.91, 1.92, and just the other day 1.93. Toshiba doesn't need to use two decimal points. Nice try to spin this. :D

"spin this"?

"friend"?


freakin weirdos.

[/b]

Seems like Blu-ray is really dominating the high-end market segment. Interestingly, people who are installing mega theaters are not going dual format, they are choosing Blu-ray only.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6481073.html

Are they telling customers the current BD standalones cannot access the entire BR disc?

Are they telling customers the current BD standalones cannot access the entire BR disc?

My guess is they don't want to tell these customers to try boiling their HD DVD combos when they don't work. :eek:

How crazy is this?:eek:

If you are a pro installer and someone is putting tens of thousands (or in some cases hundreds of thousands) into a pro install there is only one answer. Install both formats! Honestly, at this price point wouldn't you want the best performance and choice of titles? There are great players on both formats to accomplish this. Surely going exclusive is an asinine concept for a pro installer with the price points we are talking about. If I had these kind of resources I would be pretty pissed that I couldn't watch a movie because it was HD-DVD exclusive and my expensive, profesisonally installed" home theatre couldn't play it.

Bingo!

Any professional HT installer that doesn't recommend getting both HD formats at this juncture, is doing their clients a complete and utter disservice.

Once again, politics rather than pragmatism, rule the day...

Shocking that installers would push the items with the bigger built in profit.

I bet they are pushing SACD and DVD-A on people too.

Suckers!:eek:

My guess is they don't want to tell these customers to try boiling their HD DVD combos when they don't work. :eek:


I take that as a NO, which would make them about as trustworthy as car salesmen and politicians.

For many, that is the best relationship to have.

I had a pump installed to my irrigation system to pump lake water for my sprinkler system...I suppose I could've gone and farted around comparing pumps on line, but my long time irrigation company used and recommended a certain pump (that they ultimately installed for the system). And I wasn't going to bother researching a pump. They installed many, they have experiencewith them and they are relaible and give great service. It was a easy choice to take the recommendation. It cost as much as a decent Blu Ray player. I'll bet many who use custom installers do not micromanage the equipment choices, they just want it installed and easy to use and take the installers recommendations..

I hate to say this but for once I agree with you. That is exactly what happens. Actually the pump analogy is pretty clever, as in BDA's case they sure know how to pump the dollars. Just watch out for the backflow. :D

No one here gets it. It has nothing to do with high end installs. HSTA is basically a store and they have never been a Toshiba dealer, but they carry Sony and LG, so of course BD is going to outsell HD DVD in a store where you don't carry any standalone HD DVD players for people to buy from you. This doesn't mean dealers/installers aren't putting in HD DVD players in 92% of their installs, it just means that they aren't buying those HD DVD players from HTSA because they don't sell them!

It's because you don't have flagship players on the HDDVD side (Onkyo is the closest, but that's not too high end of a model either). BluRay has High End Denon and Pioneer.

While I personally don't see THAT much of a need for super quality flagship products (and I certainly cant afford them myself), there is a market that values this and is willing to spend the money. That is why they usually have different Amp/Decoders than the receivers most of us have too.

Bingo!

Any professional HT installer that doesn't recommend getting both HD formats at this juncture, is doing their clients a complete and utter disservice.

Once again, politics rather than pragmatism, rule the day...

The mighty dollar has overtaken politics a long time ago, home theater installers association or whatever their name is follows their lead, too bad they can't be upfront about it and declare "show me the money!".

When money is not a concern people will always buy whats better and in this case its Blu-ray.

man, you are a salesman's wet dream.

Well ,the Ps3 is at version 1.9

while toshiba 2nd gen's are up to 2.5
So it would appear they've had more updates. With a little research.


I'm glad both are updated.


YAY FOR UPDATES YAY

Looks like you really lost a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut... You only forgot 2/3 of the PS3 updates by ignoring a digit : I guess 1.50, 1.51, 1.52 or 1.61, 1.62, 1.63 or 1.81, 1.82, 1.83 etc all are a total of 3 updates to you...

As far as custumers asking about current HD-DVD exclusives. Id guess their answer will simply be well its not on Blu-ray yet. But while you wait why not but the DVD as this player does a great job of upscalling the content. Forgeting to tell them it may never happen or could be a few years. As id guess if HD-DVD loses it will be awhile before they switch to BD fully.
It took disney a bit to go from VHS to DVD.


Although if their using commponet video they can't upscale.

Looks like you really lost a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut... You only forgot 2/3 of the PS3 updates by ignoring a digit : I guess 1.50, 1.51, 1.52 or 1.61, 1.62, 1.63 or 1.81, 1.82, 1.83 etc all are a total of 3 updates to you...

WOW! Look at that! More updates for the PS3 than new games. That poster was right after all!:eek:

Although if their using commponet video they can't upscale.Incorrect. All that it does is stop the players from upscaling, and that isn't a bad thing in most cases.

Other than getting another Blu article out in circulation for the sake of PR I don't see this affecting any normal shopper's choice of format.

Other than getting another Blu article out in circulation for the sake of PR I don't see this affecting any normal shopper's choice of format.

+1

That's true the PJ/TV could have a scaler or they might use a indepent scaler. That's if you use one.

Guys the HTSA is a BUYING group nothing more. Toshiba is NOT one of their vendors so be default they would notbe in their mix. Pioneer is in their group so they BR

I bet those customers will be thrilled when they can't play 50% of the HDM out there...

50%?? You need to stop sniffing the HD-DVD glue. Go look at the latest release schedules. If you come up with 50%, you have some counting issues.

Other than getting another Blu article out in circulation for the sake of PR I don't see this affecting any normal shopper's choice of format.


Only from someone who sees this article as somehow supporting BD PR. :rolleyes:

Only from someone who sees this article as somehow supporting BD PR. :rolleyes:

That really means a lot coming from someone like you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11726436#post11726436

Oh, by the way, who would be the people that don't think this is a BD PR stunt.