A Forrester Research report says so....

Via Sirdvd.com (http://www.sirdvd.com/2007/09/blu-rayhd-dvd-war-to-run-another-18.html)

I wonder if the time frame would be different if he had the correct prices of players

A stand alone Blu-ray player sells for about $500, while HD DVD players cost about $400

HD-A2/A3 = $300
Venturer = $200

The guy interviewed seems a bit out of touch with reality. He points out that "BD players cost $500 and HD DVD players cost $400". This is off the mark, seeing as HD DVD will have $199 players on shelves in a month and even the Toshiba branded players start at $299.

He implies that $249 is the sweet spot and that there needs to be a $249 BD player in time for Xmas of 2007..... without making any mention of the fact that if Sony does such a cut it will be on a profile 1.0 deck AND will anger their BDA brethren.

All in all I wouldn't hold up the 'research' these guys did as anything to put too much stock in.

HD-A2/A3 = $300
Venturer = $200

Is the Venturer on sale already?

Is the Venturer on sale already?

No not yet, unfortunately. I know two people who want to pick one up.

Ya, not to mention that if a $250 BD deck was going to happen this year we would have heard about it by now.

They've also claimed BD will still win but are now hedging their bets saying that BD players need to come down in price. :rolleyes:

Wow - Forrester biased?

"Weakened by these developments, Blu-ray needs to offer a viable hardware model at the $250 price point by Christmas 2007," he said in the report. "The Blu-ray camp must also stave off further studio defections, and employ more aggressive promotional tactics to counter HD DVD's recent momentum."

Clearly Bluray are on their back foot - and the ONLY people asking for an extra 18 months to this "war" are the Bluray people. They realize that they need another year and a half to fix their MANY problems with the format.

Sod' em, I say...

HD DVD is ready and affordable *now*

From the many "mistakes" in the report interview, it would seem clear that the speaker is Bluray-biased. He's right about one thing tho, if Bluray doesn't have competing players under $250 for this holiday shopping season, they're ****ed, basically.

More aggressive promotional tactics????? The only way they could be any more aggressive is to have BDA union reps, knocking on everyone's door. :D

Heh, all I saw there was somebody stating what THEY thought BR needs to do to win, nothing more. These things are always good for a quick chuckle though, they speak about the future as if the current scenerio is not gonna change much one way or another and tip the balance anytime soon - all I'm saying is something will have to give and we will see, but things are not gonna just limp along for 18 months (odd number for him to choose, eh?) and remain 'as is' - maybe the studios will take matters into their own hands soon enough, maybe not, maybe BR will drop an affordable player out very soon, etc, dunno, but this guy is a bit off...

In 18 months dual format players will be dirt cheap. War over and yet still raging, but no longer at the consumer's expense.

When one side "wins" I will gladly come on-board. Even if both players were sub $200 I would take a hard look at which one I would snag as I only want to buy movies in one format.

The main problem here is the two formats fighting it out and not the pricing. I would pick up a player at today's prices with no issues (Blu-Ray or HD-DVD). No thanks on the different discs though. No, I don't want dual format players either. I want one format for my future library of HD movies...

Just the latest "talking point" from the Bluray camp.

Remember last week and the week before, they started saying that the format war would take 18 months more?

Now all their "research companies" that they are customers of are saying it too...

Sony and the Bluray camp NEED another year and a half, by many accounts, to get their product WORKING.

If HDM went mass market tomorrow, HD DVD could easily ramp up disc manufacturing, but Bluray would be hopelessly lost.

Bluray is NOT ready for mass market, and so they want to try to depress the WHOLE of the HDM market, and keep it "niche" - it's their only HOPE to buy time to try to come back and win later..

I think this report points out how out of touch these research firms are with reality. Too many errors.

..self deleted..

So...we have to endure 18 more months of Blu$hit before the BDA throws in the towel? :p

dual thread dual post

Actual report does not actually match the headline

Analyst sounds almost like a fan giving advice to the coach of his favorite team

Forrester analyst J.P. Gownder stood behind his company's view that Blu-ray would eventually win out over HD DVD, but he said the Blu-ray camp needs to cut prices.

A stand alone Blu-ray player sells for about $500, while HD DVD players cost about $400, and prices are expected to drop further as the holiday shopping season nearsOut of date information from the writer who is probably basing this off the information fed to him.

The HD A2 and HD A3 are MSRP $299 and the Venturer will be $199 MSRP, Street pricing below that.

Gownder said Blu-ray's content advantages are somewhat diminished since the recent decision by Viacom's Paramount studio to commit exclusively to HD DVD. HD DVD hardware prices have also dropped into consumers' preferred price range, he said.

"Weakened by these developments, Blu-ray needs to offer a viable hardware model at the $250 price point by Christmas 2007," he said in the report. "The Blu-ray camp must also stave off further studio defections, and employ more aggressive promotional tactics to counter HD DVD's recent momentum."

Forrester said typical owners of high-definition televisions are not willing to pay more than $200 on average for a new HD DVD or Blu-ray player.

"Failure to alter strategy would open up Blu-ray to a possible upset defeat at the hands of HD DVD," Gownder said.

Seems he's just trying to defend their past assessments and is more being critical of Blu-ray's misplays than HD DVDs.

Considering that HD DVD will meet those price point this fall, means that the headline does not match the content of the article.

Seems like the headline editor did not realize that HD DVD will have lower prices going into the much higher volume holiday sales season.

"18 months . . . that's all we need to win the war (and get our players up to where HD DVD is . . 18 months."

:rolleyes:

"18 months . . . that's all we need to win the war (and get our players up to where HD DVD is . . 18 months."

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: And Lee chimes in with more FUD

:rolleyes: And Lee chimes in with more FUD

Nope - just chanting the new BD slogan!:)

BD is the camp that is saying this. Not the Hd DVD camp. We only need 3 months . . . the last 3 months in 2007.:D

:rolleyes: And Lee chimes in with more FUD

How is that FUD? Blu-ray players may not even be up to 2.0 (where HD DVD is) in 18 months. He's actually being optimistic by saying 18 months. 1.1 hasn't even arrived yet and just about every NEW player coming out this holiday season is only 1.0. :eek:

Nope - just chanting the new BD slogan!:)

BD is the camp that is saying this. Not the Hd DVD camp. We only need 3 months . . . the last 3 months in 2007.:D

And you won't be getting that. Of course, in HD-DVD fashion you all think that every week will belong to HD-DUD. All I can say is, in your dreams.

How is that FUD? Blu-ray players may not even be up to 2.0 (where HD DVD is) in 18 months. He's actually being optimistic by saying 18 months. 1.1 hasn't even arrived yet and just about every NEW player coming out this holiday season is only 1.0. :eek:

It's FUD because like every other HD-DVD fanboy that has infested this forum, they have taken an innocuous report by a blog and made it out to be some effort by BD (from RDjam) to make the war last longer for their own benefit. If that isn't stretching things, I don't know what is. Fact is, both formats are suffering. However, regardless of your wishes, the better format (BD) will prevail in the end.

And you won't be getting that. Of course, in HD-DVD fashion you all think that every week will belong to HD-DUD. All I can say is, in your dreams.

You seem to forget. No chicken/egg problem here. You MUST have a player to see HD movies. $179, $199 and $299 - all MSRP's . . . versus $499, $549, $599 and $649.

Who cares what the software sales are for a particluar week - or all the weeks in 2007. They will pretty much all look like they have been since the Viacom announcement - 60/40.

But after Xmas - we will see what happens.

Remember you only get half the studios - so will you buy a cheap player . . . or an expensive player - to see 50% of available content?

The guy interviewed seems a bit out of touch with reality. He points out that "BD players cost $500 and HD DVD players cost $400". This is off the mark, seeing as HD DVD will have $199 players on shelves in a month and even the Toshiba branded players start at $299.

He implies that $249 is the sweet spot and that there needs to be a $249 BD player in time for Xmas of 2007..... without making any mention of the fact that if Sony does such a cut it will be on a profile 1.0 deck AND will anger their BDA brethren.

All in all I wouldn't hold up the 'research' these guys did as anything to put too much stock in.

i keep hearing this $200 hd dvd player on the shelves yada yada. whose shelves are they going to be on? walmart has vetoed that. are they going to be a big lots?;);)i'm just kidding, maybe.

now usually i try to be very diplomatic with the whole format war stuff, but come one guys use your brains. most of you hd dvd guys have some valid reasons for choosing your format and i respect that.

and didn't the home theater specialists of america just state that over 90% of their members support blu ray and that lead them to support blu ray? aren't these people the most knowledgeable unbiased people on the business. they are the purest home theater experts as the simply look to get the best PQ and SQ for themselves and their customers. :eek::eek:yes i know shocking isn't it? the people who know what they're doing and don't have an hatred either way preffer the superior format. ITS AMAZING!!!!

as for angering their bda brethren. that might be true. but then again you can only anger your constituents when you have some. no one wants to get into bed with hd dvd because its a money loosing venture.

and didn't the home theater specialists of america just state that over 90% of their members support blu ray and that lead them to support blu ray? aren't these people the most knowledgeable unbiased people on the business. they are the purest home theater experts as the simply look to get the best PQ and SQ for themselves and their customers. :eek::eek:yes i know shocking isn't it? the people who know what they're doing and don't have an hatred either way preffer the superior format. ITS AMAZING!!!!

What's odd about that is that these HT enthusiasts wouldn't go dual-format for the time being. You only get half the available movies if you only own one type of player. Someone building a 10K+ HT system and just deciding not to include a $500 player (from either side) seems a bit dumb to me. Apparently it's happening though, just not sure why.

I thought BD have won the war.

"18 months . . . that's all we need to win the war (and get our players up to where HD DVD is . . 18 months."

:rolleyes:
Who is our? Toshiba? Toshiba, or Toshiba?;););)

Who is our? Toshiba? Toshiba, or Toshiba?;););)

Hmmm a FUD bucket calling another person a FUD bucket?.. or is it kettle?

I guess you don't know about LiteOn, Venturer, LG, Samsung, Onkyo, Alpine.:rolleyes:

You seem to forget. No chicken/egg problem here. You MUST have a player to see HD movies. $179, $199 and $299 - all MSRP's . . . versus $499, $549, $599 and $649.

Who cares what the software sales are for a particluar week - or all the weeks in 2007. They will pretty much all look like they have been since the Viacom announcement - 60/40.

But after Xmas - we will see what happens.

Remember you only get half the studios - so will you buy a cheap player . . . or an expensive player - to see 50% of available content?

As usual, your numbers are squewed. I bought my Samsung BD P1000, in February of this year for $400.00. I see them now being sold for around $300.00 right now. More b.s., as usual!

Whatever:
http://cgi.*********/Samsung-BD-P1000-Blu-Ray-Disc-Player-BD-P1000-SEALED_W0QQitemZ230174402279QQihZ013QQcategoryZ15077QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

in Canada both first gen Philips and Samsung are still $500. Where did you get the Samsung for $300? I assume shipping included of course. Also does it have Canadian warranty?

in Canada both first gen Philips and Samsung are still $500. Where did you get the Samsung for $300? I assume shipping included of course. Also does it have Canadian warranty?U.S. suppliers. Since the dollar is now at par, it's all the same. I have a U.S. postal box and had it shipped there. The $25.00 shipping more than offsets the tax savings. And yes, the warrenty is valid in Canada.

he he he... gotcha! Samsung clearly specifies that the warranty on US bought products are NOT valid in Canada. It's even on Samsung Canada's website.

If you want to lie, at least lie intelligently.

I wonder if the time frame would be different if he had the correct prices of players



HD-A2/A3 = $300
Venturer = $200
I see you average over 500+ posts per month. Do you work for Microsoft or HD DVD in any way?

from Samsung Canada's website concerning the warranty coverage:

"applies to new Samsung Brand products marketed and distributed by Samsung Electronics Canada Inc. (SECA), which are purchased and used in Canada by the original purchaser.
This information is subject to the terms and conditions of the written Canadian limited warranty statement included with each product. Consult the owner's manual for product specific warranty details. Keep your "Bill of Sale" as your proof of purchase."

he he he... gotcha! Samsung clearly specifies that the warranty on US bought products are NOT valid in Canada. It's even on Samsung Canada's website.

If you want to lie, at least lie intelligently.That's funny, they sent me firmware update disks, when asked. I call that service. It says purchased, not purchased in Canada.

By the way, did you sellout to the HD DVD acolytes on this site? Is that what you mean in your in your signature about going from 9 BD's, to 8? I guess that makes you a follower of the HD DVD Stooges?

Here is what it say's on the Samsung site. Vague at best:

The following terms apply to new Samsung Brand products marketed and distributed by Samsung Electronics Canada Inc. (SECA), which are purchased and used in Canada by the original purchaser.
This information is subject to the terms and conditions of the written Canadian limited warranty statement included with each product. Consult the owner's manual for product specific warranty details. Keep your "Bill of Sale" as your proof of purchase. This information is subject to change without notice.

That's funny, they sent me firmware update disks, when asked. I call that service. It says purchased, not purchased in Canada.

By the way, did you sellout to the HD DVD acolytes on this site? Is that what you mean in your in your signature about going from 9 BD's, to 8? I guess that makes you a follower of the HD DVD Stooges?

Here is what it say's on the Samsung site. Vague at best:

The following terms apply to new Samsung Brand products marketed and distributed by Samsung Electronics Canada Inc. (SECA), which are purchased and used in Canada by the original purchaser.
This information is subject to the terms and conditions of the written Canadian limited warranty statement included with each product. Consult the owner's manual for product specific warranty details. Keep your "Bill of Sale" as your proof of purchase. This information is subject to change without notice.

PrinceLH: HD DVD just does so much more. The studios are following. I thought it might be Lionsgatge first, now I think Disney. Just a matter of time. It won't be Universal and it won't be Paramount. Disney or Lionsgate will fall.

Hmmm a FUD bucket calling another person a FUD bucket?.. or is it kettle?


I guess you don't know about LiteOn, Venturer, LG, Samsung, Onkyo, Alpine.:rolleyes:

I've been here for over 7 years and have 368 posts. These other so called players, are averaging 500 - 700 posts a month and have only been here a few months They really need to get a life, unless they have another agenda!


The Onkyo is a rebranded Toshiba, $800.00, if I'm not mistaken. The others have not been put out for sale, as of yet.

I guess you swallowed the Kool-Aid! Enjoy your obsolete format for the time being. A year from now, it won't matter anyway!

That's funny, they sent me firmware update disks, when asked. I call that service. It says purchased, not purchased in Canada.

By the way, did you sellout to the HD DVD acolytes on this site? Is that what you mean in your in your signature about going from 9 BD's, to 8? I guess that makes you a follower of the HD DVD Stooges?

Here is what it say's on the Samsung site. Vague at best:

The following terms apply to new Samsung Brand products marketed and distributed by Samsung Electronics Canada Inc. (SECA), which are purchased and used in Canada by the original purchaser.
This information is subject to the terms and conditions of the written Canadian limited warranty statement included with each product. Consult the owner's manual for product specific warranty details. Keep your "Bill of Sale" as your proof of purchase. This information is subject to change without notice.

you're too funny.

1. I started my signature with owning more than 30 BD titles, and they are dwindling down because either I don't like the picture or I re-purchased them on HD DVD (the HD DVD imports of BD exclusives tend to be better PQ wise). The last one being Silent Hill BD replaced with the HD DVD version (hence the 9 going on 8 BD collection).

2. A little bit of knowledge of the English language will make everybody realize that the phrase means "purchased in Canada and used in Canada", writing it so will just be grammatically incorrect, thus they wrote it they way it's written (which unfortunately confuses you).

3. I used to work closely with Samsung Electronics Canada (SECA) service department. Their policy is to refuse warranty service for product not purchased from Canadian Samsung Authorized Dealer.

The Onkyo is a rebranded Toshiba, $800.00, if I'm not mistaken. The others have not been put out for sale, as of yet.

I guess you swallowed the Kool-Aid! Enjoy your obsolete format for the time being. A year from now, it won't matter anyway!


A year from now? I thought HD DVD is dead when BD was released? or was it when BD50 was released? or was it when PS3 was released? now it's a year from now? you confuse me. :D :D :D :D

A year from now? I thought HD DVD is dead when BD was released? or was it when BD50 was released? or was it when PS3 was released? now it's a year from now? you confuse me. :D :D :D :D

David, they are on the run.

PrinceLH: HD DVD just does so much more. The studios are following. I thought it might be Lionsgatge first, now I think Disney. Just a matter of time. It won't be Universal and it won't be Paramount. Disney or Lionsgate will fall.
That's your opinion. I can respect what you think, although I disagree. I see threads like this and see another agenda playing out here. There are a small number of people who just want to spread garbage around and don't really have nothing new to say. The same old crap, day in and day out. When you start churning out over 500+ posts a month, on average, I have to wonder if there is another dynamic at play.

David, they are on the run.Nobody is running, their just disgusted with the level of crap that is being tossed around. Many just go elseware, instead of dealing with the foolishness that has beset AVS, once a great site that is starting to look frayed around the edges, by allowing this to go on. How else do you explain a 2 - 1 sales lead by Blu Ray and a majority of standalone/gameconsoles that play Blu Ray, over HD DVD, having such a top heavy number of HD DVD fanatics. Do a poll on the number of who supports who at this site, and you'll see that most of the Blu Ray followers have left. Their sick of having to wade through this garbage pit that once allowed calm discussion.

That's your opinion. I can respect what you think, although I disagree. I see threads like this and see another agenda playing out here. There are a small number of people who just want to spread garbage around and don't really have nothing new to say. The same old crap, day in and day out. When you start churning out over 500+ posts a month, on average, I have to wonder if there is another dynamic at play.

No, I am not that loquacious. Check my profile. There is no way I can churn out 500 posts per month. But thank you for the compliment.:D

Nobody is running, their just disgusted with the level of crap that is being tossed around. Many just go elseware, instead of dealing with the foolishness that has beset AVS, once a great site that is starting to look frayed around the edges, by allowing this to go on. How else do you explain a 2 - 1 sales lead by Blu Ray and a majority of standalone/gameconsoles that play Blu Ray, over HD DVD, having such a top heavy number of HD DVD fanatics. Do a poll on the number of who supports who at this site, and you'll see that most of the Blu Ray followers have left. Their sick of having to wade through this garbage pit that once allowed calm discussion.

It works both ways. I myself have been tired of looking for good information outside of AVS regarding both formats but my own experience is I sift through the countless PS3 owners who instantly think they are A/V gurus with their purchase and it also has carried over here. I guess it's fighting fire with fire. Either that or frustration of the blu camp not getting it's way by now and the fear that BD (and possibly HDM in general) could result as UMD part 2

I'm neutral. But have an interesting question to ask...

Shouldn't HD DVD be dead by now? ;)

and didn't the home theater specialists of america just state that over 90% of their members support blu ray and that lead them to support blu ray? aren't these people the most knowledgeable unbiased people on the business. they are the purest home theater experts as the simply look to get the best PQ and SQ for themselves and their customers. :eek::eek:yes i know shocking isn't it? the people who know what they're doing and don't have an hatred either way preffer the superior format. ITS AMAZING!!!!


And as a counter point, the "experts" back in the 80's were all in favor of Sony's Betamax as the better format and to some degree it was. However the VHS people hit the price point the mass market wanted sooner and now Betamax is a footnote.

That is not to say that history absolutely has to repeat itself but it is hard to look at how the last quarter of '07 is shaping up and not see the similarities.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

As it stands, Sony does not look like it learned much from it's betamax format at all, but as the war is not over things may yet turn out differently.

While the PS3 helped to push the Blu unit volume up quite a bit, I honestly feel a change in the wind coming as the pricing on the HD machines keeps falling.

As things stand today, by January I fully expect to see the weekly sales numbers reversed to 60/40 in HD's favor.

However, the biggest problem I see for Sony after this holiday season evens up the numbers between HD and Blu unit sales, is that they are in a corner price-wise.

Right now they are already losing a fair bit of cash with each Blu player and PS3 they sell. I don't see how they could possibly slash pricing by next summer to sub $150 levels to keep pace with the HD sales by then.

However if they can manage it without losing their shirts then it will certainly make for an interesting holiday season for '08.

And before anyone starts claiming I'm biased to one format or another, please understand that I currently don't own a player of either format.

I like millions of others have been sitting back watching this mess for over a year now waiting for one of two things to happen:

Either -

- the format way to end

or

- a player to fall to the price where I am willing to finally invest in a format as it will be a low enough investment that I won't care how the war ends.

Right now, I honestly like things about both formats and don't care which one "wins".

As far as I am concerned, the first format to give me a decent, reliable, new in box machine for under $150 will win my support.

So while I am basically just rooting for one format to reach my price point, it seriously looks as if the HD camp will get there first.

And I strongly believe that several million people with HDTVs out there feel exactly the same way.

It works both ways. I myself have been tired of looking for good information outside of AVS regarding both formats but my own experience is I sift through the countless PS3 owners who instantly think they are A/V gurus with their purchase and it also has carried over here. I guess it's fighting fire with fire. Either that or frustration of the blu camp not getting it's way by now and the fear that BD (and possibly HDM in general) could result as UMD part 2

I'm neutral. But have an interesting question to ask...

Shouldn't HD DVD be dead by now? ;)

It was supposed to be dead by March 2007, then September 2007 (according to Bill Hunt.) WHY WON'T IT DIE? Perhaps because it is ready. The Combo disc issue is all set to be resolved, if it hasn't been resolved already. We will see. As many hate the Combo, this is something HD DVD can use to get this game.





s

It's FUD because like every other VHS fanboy that has infested this forum, they have taken an innocuous report by a blog and made it out to be some effort by Betamax (from RDjam) to make the war last longer for their own benefit. If that isn't stretching things, I don't know what is. Fact is, both formats are suffering. However, regardless of your wishes, the better format (Betamax) will prevail in the end.

WOW!! Change a few words in your quote and it's like I'm living in 1979-1980 all over again!!

By the way I chose the Winner in that one too!

WHY WON'T IT DIE? Perhaps because it is ready. As many hate the Combo, this is something HD DVD can use to get this game.


Something else to help with the cause:

http://www.channel-japan.com/entryimages/310306_Toshiba2.jpg

WOW!! Change a few words in your quote and it's like I'm living in 1979-1980 all over again!!


Heh.

I noted the Betamax similarity as well.

Heh.

I noted the Betamax similarity as well.

Slightly better specs at double the price? Sounds about right.

Is there actually people in this thread that are excited about the Venturer HD-DVD player? :rolleyes:

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D


HD-DVD being a Superior format?? :p

I'd love to see it put 5 star PQ , 96kHz/24-bit TrueHD and 2.0 PCM 48kHz/24-bit on the same disc (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/davematthews_liveatradiocity.html)! Oh thats right, i'm sorry...30gb and 36.55 Mbit/s bandwidth doesnt allow for that kind of greatness. :eek:

It was supposed to be dead by March 2007, then September 2007 (according to Bill Hunt.) WHY WON'T IT DIE? Perhaps because it is ready. The Combo disc issue is all set to be resolved, if it hasn't been resolved already. We will see. As many hate the Combo, this is something HD DVD can use to get this game.





s


I personally LOVE combo disks. Just not the higher price point

Is there actually people in this thread that are excited about the Venturer HD-DVD player? :rolleyes:

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D


HD-DVD being a Superior format?? :p

I'd love to see it put 5 star PQ , 96kHz/24-bit TrueHD and 2.0 PCM 48kHz/24-bit on the same disc (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/davematthews_liveatradiocity.html)! Oh thats right, i'm sorry...30gb and 36.55 Mbit/s bandwidth doesnt allow for that kind of greatness. :eek:

Come on... The difference in a 1080i picture to a 1080p picture is not something most people who walk into Best Buy or Wal-Mart will notice.

And as for audio, please keep in mind, the $150 price point HD units are NOT for the people who spend $1000+ on their speakers and $3000+ on their TV's.

They are for the people who have just bought their first sub $900 HDTV and probably use a $200-$300 Home Theater in a Box for sound.

And what some people don't realize is that for every one of the folks who will notice the difference and spend $600 on a HDM player for the sound quality there are 15-20 of the people who are happy with the sound from Dolby 5.1 on a $200-$300 HTiB.

Price WILL decide this format mess one way or another. I just wish that one of the sides would go below $150 so I could actually enjoy HD content on my new projector... ;)

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D




This is the kind of idiotic comment I would expect from a 16 year old Best Buy employee, not here on AVS.

Please Mods save us from this thread!

I think it's nuts to maintain that Blu-ray is "winning" anything anymore, and a quick win was essential. In place of that they would now like us to ignore HD DVD for a year-and-a-half so they can get their sh!t together, and justify their higher price-tag for CEMs who signed on to sell a more expensive product than HD DVD. Why the hell should anyone on the consumer side cut them more slack?

I think the consumer isn't having much trouble ignoring both at this point, but I'm not sure the software providers feel the same way about all this. They have to be aware that there comes a point of no return where HDM has too long of a beard for anybody to treat it as a must-have hot item. My hope, even my hunch is that HD DVD is going to see more studio support in the next six months, and consumer confidence and an affordable price tag is really going to make it hard to give BD the benefit of the doubt.

I personally LOVE combo disks. Just not the higher price point

Combo disks are sort of nice, for people who have a standard DVD player now and are serious about upgrading to an HD-DVD unit later on.

But the pricing of the combo disks confuses me. Won't people who cannot afford a new HD machine be less likely to want to spend more on new release movies?

Wouldn't the smart way to market HD-DVD combo media be to sell just a few of the new releases on it, at a couple dollars more than the price of a standard DVD thus helping to insure more people buy the HD-DVD disk and ultimately upgrade?

:confused:

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D


This is the kind of idiotic comment I would expect from a 16 year old Best Buy employee, not here on AVS.

Please Mods save us from this thread!



truth hurts.

More stalling for BD.

truth hurts.

The truth is you have no idea what you are talking about, or are just trolling.

The truth is you have no idea what you are talking about, or are just trolling.


so you mean to tell me 1080i and dolby digital+ is worth $200?? :D:D:D

.

so you mean to tell me 1080i and dolby digital+ is worth $200?? :D:D:D

.

In all probability to a large chunk of the US market...

Yes.

so you mean to tell me 1080i and dolby digital+ is worth $200?? :D:D:D

.

YES

I would also be willing to bet that YOU could not walk up to a row of 8 TV's, 4 @ 1080i and 4 @ 1080p and pick out which was which. You would be guessing so you might get some right, but get real.

I believe that the top 10% can buy whatever they want. The next 20% can too, but with extra work etc.. That leaves 70% of the rest of us. Do you really think that a family with kids is more worried about saving for college, or buying that 1080P plasma to go along with his top of the line Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player?

NOT A CHANCE.

You buy a 720p LCD and the best HD player you can afford, then you sit around your new purchases and marvel at how Great the picture is.

That's real life!

Maybe you'll understand that when you move out of your parents basement.

Yeah, I know, you are a self made millionaire with four kids a wife a two girlfriends. BUT...make no mistake you are NOT the norm, nor are you the majority.

Have a Nice Day!

I would also be willing to bet that YOU could not walk up to a row of 8 TV's, 4 @ 1080i and 4 @ 1080p and pick out which was which. You would be guessing so you might get some right, but get real.

You're absolutely right, but cool down, man. :cool: Crackinhedz thinks SD DVD upconverted to 1080i is the same as HD-DVD at 1080i. He also thinks DD and DD+ are the same. All we can do is to just ignore him or educate him.

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs.

Your dvd player upconverts 480p into 1080i, which is not the same as HD-DVD content (1080p) at 1080i. There is negligible difference in picture quality with HD-DVD content at 1080i or 1080p. In fact, if the deinterlacer in your TV is of high quality, they look exactly the same. And your upconverting dvd does not do DD+, which is a high definition audio format. So I'd say YES to $200 for 1080i!

Is there actually people in this thread that are excited about the Venturer HD-DVD player? :rolleyes:

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D


HD-DVD being a Superior format?? :p

I'd love to see it put 5 star PQ , 96kHz/24-bit TrueHD and 2.0 PCM 48kHz/24-bit on the same disc (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/davematthews_liveatradiocity.html)! Oh thats right, i'm sorry...30gb and 36.55 Mbit/s bandwidth doesnt allow for that kind of greatness. :eek:

This child is honestly the most clueless person I have seen on these threads. Is your name supposed to be crackinhedz or crackhed? Why don't you go vacuum for your allowance?

[QUOTE=mattilaj;11719486]You're absolutely right, but cool down, man. :cool: Crackinhedz thinks SD DVD upconverted to 1080i is the same as HD-DVD at 1080i. He also thinks DD and DD+ are the same. All we can do is to just ignore him or educate him.



You can be educated in these forums already.

BY READING, not posting stupid comments.

I read on this forum for years before I ever thought about posting anything.

God gave us TWO Ears and only ONE mouth for a reason.
Listen more (aka READ) Talk less (aka TYPE)

I wonder if most have missed the point of this study. Unless prices come way down for players and disks neither side will win. I wonder if we will soon see a $299 Blu-Ray player and a $150 HD player? We must also have disks in the same price range as standard DVD's for the format to take off. The film companies are asking a high price to get us to replace existing. I think that the average consumer does care about quality but there has to be a big difference. Many are buying their sets to view sports and will not be as concerned about the differences in quality between Sd and HD disks. Price could make them move.

We already know how well a $299 BD player would sell.

About as well as the Toshiba HD-A2 sold at that price.

Of course, the Toshibas are already at $100 less than that, and HD DVD prices are coming down.

Meanwhile, there's no sign of a $299 BD player this side of Christmas, barring a few one-off deals.

I'm not sure what the price is, but a price does exist where the floodgates will open. And one thing we know for sure is that HD DVD is going to hit that price point first, and by a long, long way.

Steve W

I wonder if most have missed the point of this study. Unless prices come way down for players and disks neither side will win. I wonder if we will soon see a $299 Blu-Ray player and a $150 HD player? We must also have disks in the same price range as standard DVD's for the format to take off. The film companies are asking a high price to get us to replace existing. I think that the average consumer does care about quality but there has to be a big difference. Many are buying their sets to view sports and will not be as concerned about the differences in quality between Sd and HD disks. Price could make them move.

I believe that DISC prices will fall AFTER the PLAYER prices stabilize.

When I bought my first CD player, discs were priced at $18.99.
It took a while for them to fall, but fall they did. The HD format will be no different. There will be cheaper ways to produce the discs, or faster. Heck, maybe even better. I have noticed that compared to the first CD's I bought, the newer ones seem to be about 3/4 as thick. Just an example.

As usual, your numbers are squewed. I bought my Samsung BD P1000, in February of this year for $400.00.

$400 for a BD-P1000? You over paid. People are dumping them on eBay for a lot less than that.

BTW, they are talking MSRP, not closeout clearance prices for last years models. You can get an A1 for $149 which is still $250 less than you paid.

If someone cant see the difference between 1080i and 480P upconverted to 1080i, he will not see the difference between 1080i and 1080P.

And if you cant hear the difference between DD448 and DD+1,5
You will not hear the difference between DD640 and TrueHD.

I really don't think this Christmas will determine the HD victor.

Regardless which side makes the most sales, HDM is relatively a niche market. I've talked to friends, family and acquaintances and none of them have a clue about HD. They are not ready to commit to a new format.

Heck, most of them don't even have an HDTV.

HDM still has a long way to go. 18 months may just sound right. Maybe.

We already know how well a $299 BD player would sell.


A $299 1.1 Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, or JVC would sell me in a heartbeat, but anything that won't fully play mid-08 disk isn't worth a dime to me.

If this war was about price then why are Blu-ray players outselling HD-DVD players even at a higher price point? Get real people, if you can afford to get into High-Def, a little more money for a higher quality piece of equiptment is not going to amount to much. The price point argument has almost no legs.

I'm suprised that a lot of people here seem to be ignoring the news flooding in from all points. Has no one here heard about the article written in the official XBox magazine? and I quote:

"Slashed - In price recently by a whopping $20.00 was the Xbox 360 HD- DVD add-on drive. Though it's reportly sold well since its release last holiday, the movie studios have continued to back BLU-Ray in 2007, continually draining enthusiasm from the Toshiba backed HD-DVD camp. Buy hey, look at it this way, now it'll cost you just $180.00 to jump on the bandwagon of the losing high-def optical format!"

This is coming from a major HD-DVD supporter. Also the HTSA has gone Blu-ray exclusive stating over 90% of it's customers prefer Blu-ray.... does this not sink into your heads? Have you been so brain washed as to believe HD-DVD has any legs to stand on after profile 1.1 blu-ray players arrive?

David, they are on the run.

They're on the Titanic, waiting for the rescue ships to arrive.

Sad, really. The next three months are going to be hell on earth for the blu-boys. The Monty Python knight has nothing on these guys.:p

It's too bad most threads seem to get clogged up by Fanboys.

If this war was about price then why are Blu-ray players outselling HD-DVD players even at a higher price point? Get real people, if you can afford to get into High-Def, a little more money for a higher quality piece of equiptment is not going to amount to much. The price point argument has almost no legs.

I'm suprised that a lot of people here seem to be ignoring the news flooding in from all points. Has no one here heard about the article written in the official XBox magazine? and I quote:

"Slashed - In price recently by a whopping $20.00 was the Xbox 360 HD- DVD add-on drive. Though it's reportly sold well since its release last holiday, the movie studios have continued to back BLU-Ray in 2007, continually draining enthusiasm from the Toshiba backed HD-DVD camp. Buy hey, look at it this way, now it'll cost you just $180.00 to jump on the bandwagon of the losing high-def optical format!"

This is coming from a major HD-DVD supporter. Also the HTSA has gone Blu-ray exclusive stating over 90% of it's customers prefer Blu-ray.... does this not sink into your heads? Have you been so brain washed as to believe HD-DVD has any legs to stand on after profile 1.1 blu-ray players arrive?


Blu-ray players outselling HD players? Since when? Or are you including PS3 numbers (but ignoring them for attachment rate)?

Blu-ray outsold HD DVD in standalones for about an 8 week period this year. For the entire rest of the year HD DVD has been outselling BD by about 1.5-1 or better.

I think the price point argument is far from spent. There is a huge difference to most families between a $199 HD player and a $400-$500 BD player.... not even to mention that the HD DVD player is spec final and the BD player can't even do profile 1.1.

Toshiba is premiering the HD-A3 at $299 which means we will see it at $249 or less MSRP on store shelves by the holiday peak shopping period in November-December.

$199 Venturer is going to sell a lot of hardware too, even if Wally World isn't carrying it.

I think that Transformers is going to sell a lot of HD players too. Kids working at Taco Bell and saving their allowance money can spend $199 for an HD DVD player standalone or add on for their Xbox... you think they're going to scrape up $500 for a PS3 or BD standalone?

If this war was about price then why are Blu-ray players outselling HD-DVD players even at a higher price point?



Actually the Blu-Ray PLAYERS are not outselling the HD-DVD players. the only reason Blu can claim higher numbers is that they are including the PS3 in their total unit sales figures which is somewhat misleading since while everyone who purchases a dedicated HDM player will use it for movies, some of the people purchasing PS3's will only use them for gaming.

Get real people, if you can afford to get into High-Def, a little more money for a higher quality piece of equiptment is not going to amount to much. The price point argument has almost no legs.

Not true at all.

You see for some people, the potential loss of $150 is acceptable while the loss of $400 - $600 is not.

Both myself and all of my circle of friends got into HDTV 5-6 years ago when the prices were around $4000 for a 50" set. Frankly everyone I know has at least one HD set (some have two or three) but none of us own even a single HDM player of either format.

Any of us could have easily afforded to purchase either player when they were released. We chose not to do so because unlike the early HDTVs which we knew we would be able to use whether we purchased a 720p, 1080i or 1080p set indefinitely, the format war guarantees that at least one player would end up being worthless and none of us like spending money on something that would ultimately become expensive junk.

However, you bring the price of either player to the $150-$200 range and all of us would be willing to enter the HDM market.

And from talking to others outside my circle of friends and relatives (coworkers, salespeople, etc.) it is apparent that there are many, many people out there who feel exactly the same way.

Is there actually people in this thread that are excited about the Venturer HD-DVD player? :rolleyes:

$200 for 1080i?? Thats insane. My upconverting dvd player can do 1080i. Not to mention id be getting the same "lossy" crap audio codecs. Even Wall-Mart has higher standards. :D


Your upconverting DVD player is upconverting. I suggest you research that before posting. Right now, this statement doesn't help your claim at all since it looks like you know nothing about HD material.

I think that Transformers is going to sell a lot of HD players too. Kids working at Taco Bell and saving their allowance money can spend $199 for an HD DVD player standalone or add on for their Xbox...

I'm really interested in finding out if Transformers will really sell alot of HD DVD players.

It's just my opinion, but I'm not sure that kids who have to saved up their allowance would really care to purchase a standalone player for either HD DVD or Blu-ray (or X-box add-on). If they're scraping, it's to buy a game console, but again, movies in HD are likely not their primary concern.

Don't get me wrong, kids are excited about purchasing Transformers, but they will likely buy it on DVD before considering it in HD. HD is mainly an adult luxury. I'm sure there would be a lot of kids more excited about watching Transformers on their wrist watch than in 1080p.

Wow - Forrester biased?



Clearly Bluray are on their back foot - and the ONLY people asking for an extra 18 months to this "war" are the Bluray people. They realize that they need another year and a half to fix their MANY problems with the format.

Sod' em, I say...

HD DVD is ready and affordable *now*

From the many "mistakes" in the report interview, it would seem clear that the speaker is Bluray-biased. He's right about one thing tho, if Bluray doesn't have competing players under $250 for this holiday shopping season, they're ****ed, basically.
I still don't get this whole "affordable" argument somehow being used to pick HD DVD over Blu-Ray? That's like saying the Porsche is more affordable than the Ferrari so you should get the Porsche.

People who want an affordable car get a Ford or something. Likewise, people who want affordable movies buy SD DVD.

People who love HDM movies and must have them, though, get both formats.

http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,43013,00.html

September 21, 2007

The Next-Gen DVD Format War: Still Bloody
Blu-ray Must Drop Hardware Prices Quickly To Beat HD-DVD

by J.P. Gownder
with Brad Holmes, Ellen Daley, James L. McQuivey, Paul Jackson, Remy Fiorentino

This is a document excerpt

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Forrester predicted in 2005 that Blu-ray would eventually win a hard-fought victory over HD-DVD in the next-generation DVD format war. Today, Forrester believes that Blu-ray remains in a better position than HD-DVD — but that Blu-ray strategists need to alter course. Blu-ray's failure to land a knock-out blow means that the format war will continue for at least 18 more months. Blu-ray's content advantages are somewhat diminished since the recent decision by Paramount to commit exclusively to HD-DVD. And HD-DVD hardware prices have dropped directly into consumers' preferred price range, according to Forrester's Technographics® survey data. Weakened by these developments, Blu-ray needs to offer a viable hardware model at the $250 price point by Christmas 2007. The Blu-ray camp must also stave off further studio defections, and employ more aggressive promotional tactics to counter HD-DVD's recent momentum. Failure to alter strategy would open up Blu-ray to a possible upset defeat at the hands of HD-DVD.

TABLE OF CONTENTS NOTES & RESOURCES

Blu-ray Failed To Land The Knock-Out Punch

The Format War Will Remain Deadlocked For The Next 18 Months

Blu-ray's Strategic Advantages Could Be Undone By Price — And Content

recommendations
To Win, Blu-ray Partisans Must Drop Their Hardware Prices

Supplemental Material
Forrester interviewed the Blu-ray Disc Association, the HD-DVD Association, LG Electronics, Philips, Sony, Toshiba America, and Warner Bros. Entertainment.Download and print PDF immediately
Price: US $279.00 ;)

And as a counter point, the "experts" back in the 80's were all in favor of Sony's Betamax as the better format and to some degree it was. However the VHS people hit the price point the mass market wanted sooner and now Betamax is a footnote.

That is not to say that history absolutely has to repeat itself but it is hard to look at how the last quarter of '07 is shaping up and not see the similarities.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

As it stands, Sony does not look like it learned much from it's betamax format at all, but as the war is not over things may yet turn out differently.

While the PS3 helped to push the Blu unit volume up quite a bit, I honestly feel a change in the wind coming as the pricing on the HD machines keeps falling.

As things stand today, by January I fully expect to see the weekly sales numbers reversed to 60/40 in HD's favor.

However, the biggest problem I see for Sony after this holiday season evens up the numbers between HD and Blu unit sales, is that they are in a corner price-wise.

Right now they are already losing a fair bit of cash with each Blu player and PS3 they sell. I don't see how they could possibly slash pricing by next summer to sub $150 levels to keep pace with the HD sales by then.

However if they can manage it without losing their shirts then it will certainly make for an interesting holiday season for '08.

And before anyone starts claiming I'm biased to one format or another, please understand that I currently don't own a player of either format.

I like millions of others have been sitting back watching this mess for over a year now waiting for one of two things to happen:

Either -

- the format way to end

or

- a player to fall to the price where I am willing to finally invest in a format as it will be a low enough investment that I won't care how the war ends.

Right now, I honestly like things about both formats and don't care which one "wins".

As far as I am concerned, the first format to give me a decent, reliable, new in box machine for under $150 will win my support.

So while I am basically just rooting for one format to reach my price point, it seriously looks as if the HD camp will get there first.

And I strongly believe that several million people with HDTVs out there feel exactly the same way.

+1
Excellent post! This is pretty much the thoughts of many who are watching by the fence.

No, I am not that loquacious. Check my profile. There is no way I can churn out 500 posts per month. But thank you for the compliment.:D
I am not talking about you. Go through the thread and you'll figure it out.

It works both ways. I myself have been tired of looking for good information outside of AVS regarding both formats but my own experience is I sift through the countless PS3 owners who instantly think they are A/V gurus with their purchase and it also has carried over here. I guess it's fighting fire with fire. Either that or frustration of the blu camp not getting it's way by now and the fear that BD (and possibly HDM in general) could result as UMD part 2

I'm neutral. But have an interesting question to ask...

Shouldn't HD DVD be dead by now? ;)HD DVD would be almost dead now, if Paramount had not been bribed. That is in the past. Personally, I post in many different forums, not just here. I chose Blu ray, because I believe that they have the best chance to win the format war. I don't want to see this war go on any longer. If it were HD DVD with a 2 - 1 sales lead, and were ahead in the studio support, I would switch, just to give HDM a chance to compete with SD DVD. I can clearly debate this thought, but there are a number of shills here that are blind or have a financial stake on who they want to win. They attack any and all news of pro Blu Ray news and just can't handle when it puts Blu Ray in a good light in consumer awareness. Once I post this, you can bet that the acolytes will appear and go on the attack. It's the way it is, here on AVS.

I think it's nuts to maintain that Blu-ray is "winning" anything anymore, and a quick win was essential. In place of that they would now like us to ignore HD DVD for a year-and-a-half so they can get their sh!t together, and justify their higher price-tag for CEMs who signed on to sell a more expensive product than HD DVD. Why the hell should anyone on the consumer side cut them more slack?

I think the consumer isn't having much trouble ignoring both at this point, but I'm not sure the software providers feel the same way about all this. They have to be aware that there comes a point of no return where HDM has too long of a beard for anybody to treat it as a must-have hot item. My hope, even my hunch is that HD DVD is going to see more studio support in the next six months, and consumer confidence and an affordable price tag is really going to make it hard to give BD the benefit of the doubt.In your eyes, it's nuts. You can make this comment, once HD DVD wins 1 week, this year, in software sales. If HD DVD cannot win the week, that Transformers comes out on, then they may never win a week.

$400 for a BD-P1000? You over paid. People are dumping them on eBay for a lot less than that.

BTW, they are talking MSRP, not closeout clearance prices for last years models. You can get an A1 for $149 which is still $250 less than you paid.That was 7 months ago! Since then, I've purchased over 40 Blu Ray disks and watched 39 of them. By the way, my Samsung is 1080p compatible, unlike the A1 that is 1080i.

That was 7 months ago! Since then, I've purchased over 40 Blu Ray disks and watched 39 of them. By the way, my Samsung is 1080p compatible, unlike the A1 that is 1080i.

And you do realize that having 1080p output means absolutely nothing to the several million owners of 720p and 1080i displays, right?

The "Full HD" hype invented a few months ago is extremely entertaining...

It will be even more so in a few years when 1440p hits the market.

What will they call that format I wonder?

"Extra-full HD"?

"Too Much HD"?

"Time to upgrade again...HD"?

For the majority of the current HD market, having a player which outputs to 1080i or 720p will be more than adequate.

And before the arguement of "But 1080p is Future Proof!!!" is thrown in please see the above comments regarding 1440p and also keep in mind that by the time many current 720p and 1080i set owners are ready to upgrade again (2-4 years from now) the 1080p capable players will almost certainly be priced between $80 and $120.

So there really is zero reason for people who own 1080i and 720p sets to bother purchasing a HDM player capable of 1080p unless they are also planning to upgrade their TVs this year as well.

so you mean to tell me 1080i and dolby digital+ is worth $200?? :D:D:D

.


:D

HD DVD would be almost dead now, if Paramount had not been bribed. That is in the past. Personally, I post in many different forums, not just here. I chose Blu ray, because I believe that they have the best chance to win the format war. I don't want to see this war go on any longer. If it were HD DVD with a 2 - 1 sales lead, and were ahead in the studio support, I would switch, just to give HDM a chance to compete with SD DVD. I can clearly debate this thought, but there are a number of shills here that are blind or have a financial stake on who they want to win. They attack any and all news of pro Blu Ray news and just can't handle when it puts Blu Ray in a good light in consumer awareness. Once I post this, you can bet that the acolytes will appear and go on the attack. It's the way it is, here on AVS.

In your eyes, it's nuts. You can make this comment, once HD DVD wins 1 week, this year, in software sales. If HD DVD cannot win the week, that Transformers comes out on, then they may never win a week.

That was 7 months ago! Since then, I've purchased over 40 Blu Ray disks and watched 39 of them. By the way, my Samsung is 1080p compatible, unlike the A1 that is 1080i.

You know that explains a lot.

You've spent , what $400 for a first generation Blu-ray player and say $1000-$1700 in software to feed it. That's like $200 or $300 a month.

You're probably in the top 1% of users in attach rates for Blu-ray owners.

$1400- $2100 spent on HDM in the last 7 months in the low volume sales months of the spring and summer is a studios dream

Thats a chunk o change.

No wonder you are so emotionally invested.

After that kind of buy in, I would be kinda shocked if you actually would switch under those circumstances If it were HD DVD with a 2 - 1 sales lead, and were ahead in the studio support, I would switch, just to give HDM a chance to compete with SD DVD. ....but since HD DVD is unlikely to meet those standards in the next couple years I guess you would be safe in being a holdout...

...even if HD DVD gained up to 65% market share and Disney and Fox went neutral and Sony remained the only Blu-ray exclusive studio.

And you do realize that having 1080p output means absolutely nothing to the several million owners of 720p and 1080i displays, right?

The "Full HD" hype invented a few months ago is extremely entertaining...

It will be even more so in a few years when 1440p hits the market.

What will they call that format I wonder?

"Extra-full HD"?

"Too Much HD"?

"Time to upgrade again...HD"?

For the majority of the current HD market, having a player which outputs to 1080i or 720p will be more than adequate.

And before the arguement of "But 1080p is Future Proof!!!" is thrown in please see the above comments regarding 1440p and also keep in mind that by the time many current 720p and 1080i set owners are ready to upgrade again (2-4 years from now) the 1080p capable players will almost certainly be priced between $80 and $120.

So there really is zero reason for people who own 1080i and 720p sets to bother purchasing a HDM player capable of 1080p unless they are also planning to upgrade their TVs this year as well.You are correct, but the 1080p future proofs your next TV, if you decide to upgrade, in the future. If I had bought the A1, I could not have used the future TV purhase to the maximum.

You know that explains a lot.

You've spent , what $400 for a first generation Blu-ray player and say $1000-$1700 in software to feed it. That's like $200 or $300 a month.

You're probably in the top 1% of users in attach rates for Blu-ray owners.

$1400- $2100 spent on HDM in the last 7 months in the low volume sales months of the spring and summer is a studios dream

Thats a chunk o change.

No wonder you are so emotionally invested.

After that kind of buy in, I would be kinda shocked if you actually would switch under those circumstances ....but since HD DVD is unlikely to meet those standards in the next couple years I guess you would be safe in being a holdout...

...even if HD DVD gained up to 65% market share and Disney and Fox went neutral and Sony remained the only Blu-ray exclusive studio.Your wrong there. I am 50 years old and have been an audiofile for a long time. I was there in the 70's, dealing with Stereo, to Quad, back to stereo. I was an early adopter of CD's, still have the first one, without a finger print on it. I've owned 7 DVD players, been part of the DVD-A, SACD debacle, I've had 7 different surround sound processors, but still own a high end Stereo amp. I embrace different media's in audio and video. Do I have a preference? Yes, Blu Ray. If the cards say: HD DVD is going to win, then I'll be there to buy the software. Right now, the cards say Blu Ray, but it's become a little closer int he last 2 months. I'll stay the course, for now. I just want some proper dialogue, without having all of the crap being mixed in to cloud the debate.

You are correct, but the 1080p future proofs your next TV, if you decide to upgrade, in the future. If I had bought the A1, I could not have used the future TV purhase to the maximum.

Does owning a 1.0 player future proof you for 1.1/2.0?

I'd rather just take the 1080i for now.. buy a 1080p when required (likely at prices/feature sets much better in 2-3 years time) and move the 1080i into the bedrom or the kids room.

I chose Blu ray, because I believe that they have the best chance to win the format war. I don't want to see this war go on any longer. If it were HD DVD with a 2 - 1 sales lead, and were ahead in the studio support, I would switch, just to give HDM a chance to compete with SD DVD.

I think thats a big part of the difference between the 2. Blu-Ray is waging a war on HD-DVD because it wants to be the next standard but it knows it is not currently a viable replacement for DVD. The players are too expensive. It would cost huge amounts of money to build the production lines to be able to produce Blu-Ray disks at the volumes dvd's are produced now. They need to win the war now so they can become the standard for HDM and then work on addressing player costs and production costs/capacity to replace DVD later.

HD-DVD on the other hand has been planning to from the start and is ready to replace DVDs now. Player prices are cheaper and hitting levels where mass adoption of the players can start to happen. The production of HD-DVD disks can be increased by a relatively cheap upgrade to existing DVD production lines and it can then be used as either as demand dictates rather than being a separate line that can only be used for HDM. HD-DVD yields are also much higher than Blu-Ray yields making disk production cheaper and easier.

The 2 - 1 sales lead right now doesn't mean much since the volume for both is still far too low. A single hit movie on DVD sells more copies than both formats have sold since inception. I believe Pirates of the Caribbean sold more dvd's the week or the first day it was released than both formats since inception. With volumes this low by comparison it's quite easy for them to change and change quickly.

The 2 - 1 sales lead is also far below what Sony promised it would be when selling the studios on supporting Blu-ray. They promised tons of PS3's sold and lots of people buying Blu-Ray disks. With a 5 or 6 - 1 lead in players sold when you include all the PS3's a 2 -1 lead in software sales is pretty bad actually. Personally I'm of the opinion that the PS3's contribution to the Blu-Ray side of the war will also get worse as it improves as a gaming machine. People have a limited amount of time and money to spend on entertainment. Time and money spent on gaming on a PS3 can't be spent on Blu-Ray movies.

Blu-Ray spent a large amount of money to convince people they were winning the war or had already won the war. Obviously who is winning the war could be argued but clearly Blu-ray hasn't won the war. I continuing ware favors HD-DVD IMO since people are going to be much more willing to spend 150-200$ bucks on a player that might loose the war than 400$ one. The closer the price of HD-DVD players get to the price of up-converting dvd players the less potential loss there is for someone purchasing the player and the less likely they are to hold off because of the war.

Does owning a 1.0 player future proof you for 1.1/2.0?

It does if you just want to watch the movie in HD. I don't think this war will be won by PiP features good sir, nor ethernet jacks. By the time those elements are in active use in a mass audience...this war will be over and players will be cheap enough to upgrade. No studio is looking to screw up early adoption, but they are looking for long term capability.

I used my PS2 as a DVD player for some time. I'd be using it still if it had just dumped out 5.1 sound from the optical jack.

Does owning a 1.0 player future proof you for 1.1/2.0?

I'd rather just take the 1080i for now.. buy a 1080p when required (likely at prices/feature sets much better in 2-3 years time) and move the 1080i into the bedrom or the kids room.

As long as there aren't any Java problems using a newer disc on an older player. There's been talk of incompatibilities between the Java version used in 1.0 players and what will be used in 1.1/2.0 players/movies. Though I think you'll be fine and I imagine if they do have incompatibilities, they just won't release any movies with advanced content on them.

You are correct, but the 1080p future proofs your next TV, if you decide to upgrade, in the future. If I had bought the A1, I could not have used the future TV purhase to the maximum.

However, look at it this way...

If I spend $300 to $400 dollars today on a player capable of 1080p then by your logic, I have "future proofed" my HDM investment and now own a single player capable of working with my current TV and potentially with what I may buy down the road..

But by the time I plan to purchase a new (1080p) set in 2-3 years the price of a HDM player which supports 1080p will almost certainly be $80-$120.

So if I spend $200-$250 today for a (1080i/720p) player which suits my needs and spend another $120 on a 1080p player a few years from now when I purchase my new set, then I will have two HDM players, one for my new set and one for my older one and will ultimately have spent the same amount of money (or less) on those two players that I would have if I had just bought the one 1080p capable machine today.

Add in the fact that the 1080p player of 2009 will almost certainly be faster and have more features than "today's" 1080p machine and the "future proofing" argument loses some ground.

There is also the possibility that the TV of 2009 may require some new media support (HDMI 1.5?) that today's 1080p player doesn't have but the 1080p player of 2009 will.

Plus if I purchase a more expensive player today I run the risk of losing even more money if the player I choose loses the format war, potentially invalidating the concept of "future proof". Less money spent today means less risk versus having potentially picked the losing format.

No, I'm afraid I can't really buy into the "Future Proofing" concept as far as HDM players are concerned at this stage of their development.

You are correct, but the 1080p future proofs your next TV, if you decide to upgrade, in the future. If I had bought the A1, I could not have used the future TV purhase to the maximum.

But your TV will deinterlace the 1080i60 to 1080p30, so there's no difference to what you will be seeing on your tv.

However, look at it this way...

If I spend $300 to $400 dollars today on a player capable of 1080p then I have "future proofed" my HDM investment and now own a single player capable of working with my current TV and potentially with what I may buy down the road..

But by the time I plan to purchase a new (1080p) set in 2-3 years the price of a HDM player which supports 1080p will almost certainly be $80-$120.

So if I spend $200-$250 today for a (1080i/720p) player which suits my needs and spend another $120 on a 1080p player a few years from now when I purchase my new set, then I will have two HDM players, one for my new set and one for my older one and will ultimately have spent the same amount of money (or less) on those two players that I would have if I had just bought one 1080p capable machine today.

Add in the fact that the 1080p player of 2009 will almost certainly be faster and have more features than "today's" 1080p machine and the "future proofing" argument loses some ground.

There is also the possibility that the TV of 2009 may require some new media support (HDMI 1.5?) that today's 1080p player doesn't have but the 1080p player of 2009 will.

Plus if I purchase a more expensive player today I run the risk of losing even more money if the player I choose loses the format war, potentially invalidating the concept of "future proof". Less money spent today means less risk versus having potentially picked the losing format.

No, I'm afraid I can't really buy into the "Future Proofing" concept as far as HDM players are concerned at this stage of their development.

This is probably one of the best posts TRULY describing why people are buying A2's and why 1080i is good NOW both for price and performance.

It's like the suckers (me included) who rushed out and bought first generation 64-bit processors/motherboards for their computer.. before you could actually truly embrace the 64-bit power.

Now that software has finally caught up and i've upgraded to a 64-bit OS, my processor's performance is terrible compared to what I can get on the market now for 1/2 to 1/4 the price I paid 3 years ago.

If someone has a 1080i/720p today and isn't planning on upgrading within the next 2 years, go for a 1080i player and save yourself a bundle. When you are ready, the features/price will be better 10 fold when you're ready to actually use them.

Anyone who feels there is such a thing as future proof with anything technology related is out of their mind IMHO. Sure, things will still work for many years.. but by that time... everything else will have advanced to the point that the performance offered will be subpar.

This is probably one of the best posts TRULY describing why people are buying A2's and why 1080i is good NOW both for price and performance.

It's like the suckers (me included) who rushed out and bought first generation 64-bit processors/motherboards for their computer.. before you could actually truly embrace the 64-bit power.

Now that software has finally caught up and i've upgraded to a 64-bit OS, my processor's performance is terrible compared to what I can get on the market now for 1/2 to 1/4 the price I paid 3 years ago.

If someone has a 1080i/720p today and isn't planning on upgrading within the next 2 years, go for a 1080i player and save yourself a bundle. When you are ready, the features/price will be better 10 fold when you're ready to actually use them.

Anyone who feels there is such a thing as future proof with anything technology related is out of their mind IMHO. Sure, things will still work for many years.. but by that time... everything else will have advanced to the point that the performance offered will be subpar.

this is why so many people buy the cheapest models to get their feet wet in a new technology

this is why so many people buy the cheapest models to get their feet wet in a new technologyI could back that comment, if all things, like studio support, etc., were equal. When I purchased my Blu Ray player, Universal was the only studio supporting HD DVD. It is not much better, with Universal deciding to drop Blu Ray. It doesn't affect me, all that much, because I purchased most of the Paramount titles on Blu Ray, that I wanted. I would not have purchased Blades Of Glory, if it had been available and there have been few other new exclusives that I would want to buy. Of course, there are a number of titles on Universal, that I would buy, but I'm willing to wait. Do I believe that Blu Ray will still win? Yes, but they did make a major tactical mistake, by not crushing HD DVD, during the Summer, when nothing was being released on that format. Blu Ray didn't do much either and the war just stayed stagnant, until the Universal buyoff. No-one else but Blu Ray, are at fault for allowing this to happen.

Just curious - If the BDA stated tomorrow that the format war would last another 5 years, how would people feel?

Just curious - If the BDA stated tomorrow that the format war would last another 5 years, how would people feel?

Honestly? I'd have to take almost anything said by the BDA with a grain of salt at this point.

If however several truly independent leaders in the CE and film industries were to come to that conclusion then I would have to expect one of three things to happen..

1. That within 5 years the price of dual format players would drop to the sub-$150 price range, making format differences meaningless.

2. That both formats of HD media might in fact be replaced by some superior, but as of now unrealized, storage media which would make them both obsolete.

or

3. Inexpensive, higher capacity hard drives plus fiber optic installation to most homes would make HD video on demand popular enough to potentially kill HD media except for a small niche market.

But of the three I'd say that #1 would by far be the most likely (85%+)

Nobody is running, their just disgusted with the level of crap that is being tossed around. Many just go elseware, instead of dealing with the foolishness that has beset AVS, once a great site that is starting to look frayed around the edges, by allowing this to go on. How else do you explain a 2 - 1 sales lead by Blu Ray and a majority of standalone/gameconsoles that play Blu Ray, over HD DVD, having such a top heavy number of HD DVD fanatics. Do a poll on the number of who supports who at this site, and you'll see that most of the Blu Ray followers have left. Their sick of having to wade through this garbage pit that once allowed calm discussion.

You are:

"Proud Member Of The Blu Bloods!"

This is the same group of juveniles who say it is OK to kill HD DVD supporters is it not? And you call HD DVD fans fanatics. :eek:

The truth is that the BD fans do not want anyone posting about BD Profile issues and BD disc mfg problems because you are comfortable with winning. Even if it means a lot of people who cannot afford to replace their Profile 1.0 player once they find out they cannot play those cool features they have seen advertised for BD movies will get screwed.

If you think informing the public who come here for info about REAL issues before spending THEIR money on a BD player is wrong or as you say "crap", then you should be ashamed of yourself IMO. But it is your conscience you have to live with. Me. I will do what this site and many others were specifically designed for. That is to inform people about products so they can make INFORMED decisions. :p

You are correct, but the 1080p future proofs your next TV, if you decide to upgrade, in the future. If I had bought the A1, I could not have used the future TV purhase to the maximum.

I guess you didn't hear the "news" from the experts that first, your 1G Samsung player converts the 1080p from the disc to 1080i BEFORE it then converts it back to 1080p for output to a display huh? Did you know this about your Samsung player?

I guess you also missed the point that ANY 1080p display that properly deinterlaces the 1080i signal coming from a 1080p source will look EXACTLY the same as if it was output as 1080p to begin with too. Did you know this?

1080p output is a red herring and is strictly a marketing bullet point. It means nothing other than another smoke & mirror side show by Sony & the BDA.

I am curious about HOW you will take the news that your Samsung BD player is not a "REAL" HD player because it does that double conversion. Does it matter if the player or the display does that conversion? NO. Because it is a 1080p SOURCE, it just breaks the frame into two fields and throws nothing away when it streams the video to the display. It is not the same as a 1080i broadcast. :p

I really don't think this Christmas will determine the HD victor.

Regardless which side makes the most sales, HDM is relatively a niche market. I've talked to friends, family and acquaintances and none of them have a clue about HD. They are not ready to commit to a new format.

Heck, most of them don't even have an HDTV.

HDM still has a long way to go. 18 months may just sound right. Maybe. They have not yet been exposed to possibly more advertising than happens in a US Presidential campaign season.

Its possible a lot of coin will be spent in the next three months on advertising marketing and promotional POS items for HD DVD and to a lessor degree Blu-ray, Xbox 360 and the PS3.

HD DVD PRG still has a lot of money in its war chest and Paramount/Dreamworks was promised promotional considerations.