Before getting into all the observations and opinions I thought we should start on a lighter note. So let's hear your views on:

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? :D

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/FrontView24amigossubs_Lg.jpg

the ultra is trying to be a sealed sub? (and is trying to spit out the bungs) :D

Nothing!

The answer is obvious. The Gotham is MIA. :) The 4 Amigo's??

One of the subs looks constipated

The video display looks like a computer monitor in comparison to those subs.:D


Four very good-looking subs and the sounds of Eric Clapton... there is nothing else wrong.

The weight is shifting the foundation to the right

Obviously you need more low end, maybe a eD A7-900?
Or the big Krell?

These subs are at your place and not mine??

So? what were the results?
And can you name the subs?
I know the SVS....

There is a serial grill thief in your neighborhood.

The two 13" drivers sure look tiny next to the 15" and 18". Makes the final results more surprising.

Sending that Ultra in sealed mode up against those big-amp'd brutes is like sending it into a fight with one arm tied behind it's back. Still, I know it fared well.

Makes me wonder about plugging a port on my eD 350, any thoughts about the results?

If they procreate what would the offspring look like?

And can you name the subs?
I know the SVS....

Paradigm Servo-15, SVS PBUltra-13, Velodyne DD-18, JL Audio F113.

Nice chunk of change there.:eek:

a sequel to the fantastic four rise of the supreme sub.

a sequel to the fantastic four rise of the supreme sub.

lol...you win.

I'll wait for jakeman to post his thoughts before giving my impressions. It was a fun afternoon at pbc's place...

Regardless of the comparo, that is a great picture to give perspective to the different alignments and design goals of each sub.

It is not an apples to apples comparison with regards to alignment or price, but they are all very capable subs being considered here. (2 sealed servos, 1 sealed, 1 ported acting as sealed, 1- 15", 1-18", 2-13.5")

It does give some extra appreciation to just how much ooomph is packed into that little JL! That fact that it is even in the same league in SQ and output here is a testament to how well it is designed.

Nice wisecracks. Pretty funny. Here are my impressions of the session. I know Steve who is a moderator at the Spot has already filed a report. I'm sure the Bogg and Huff will comment as well.

Steve was a gracious host in offering up his place to do this sub comparison. Mark (Huff) and Asher (the Bogg) were also great companions. The cold cuts and red wine took the edge off my wife asking why I was lugging 250lbs of subs to Richmond Hill, 25 miles north to be indoors on a beautiful Sunday afternoon.

One of the first things I try to do before every new listening session is get a feel for room acoustics which as we all know contributes greatly to sound. Steve's room is 13' x 17' x 9' with 2 door openings with a carpet on a wood floor and a cloth sofa/love seat. It was a bit more resonant than I am used to which I attributed more to the subs/speakers resting on the wood floor with no decoupling mats or feet and a lack of acoustical treatments and bass traps. The leaky room though was offset by the smaller volume so I didn't think we lost much
pressurization.

After PMing all last week we needed to make some compromises if we were going to get through all the tests. The first one was to not equalize any of the subs so we turned of all filters, ARO etc. but yours truly overlooked that the DD-18 defaulted back to my HT equalization settings when the power was disconnected. It was too bad as in my HT I felt the DD-18 and JL113 were very close sonically with slightly more output going to the Fathom but slightly more definition going to the Velo. I had been looking forward to comparing both subs more intently.



We decided to spare ourselves the work and time of physically moving all the subs so we lined them all up in front of the room. As can be seen from the picture all the subs look attractive though the Servov2 enclosure looked less refined and finished. I was quite impressed with the fit and finish of the Ultra13 in rosenut. The enclosure was much larger than the old Ultra and twice the volume of the large DD-18 but would not be out of place in a large HT or in end table mode at the end of a couch as Steve had set it up.

We level matched all the subs at 80db to Steve's very nice sounding Mirage speakers, plugged all the ports on the Ultra and started playing some music. Our listening positions were all nearfield some 6-8 ft from the subs. We physically moved the RCA input cable and power cords as we went from sub to sub.

We kicked off the session playing Yuri Honing Trio's version of Walking on the Moon because it starts with that slow deep bass riff, familiar to Police fans and then builds into a crashing crescendo of drums and bass. Very good for testing how well a sub (or speaker) responds to loud transients and fast dynamic abrupt changes as well as deep bass resonance. Its also a good one to start getting everyone acclimatized with new subs in a new room. When listening to subs of this calibre it takes a while to focus on the nuances which distinguish each. They all sounded very good except for the DD-18 being decidedly bloated and lacking resolution owing to my default custom equalization. In light of that problem, as Steve did, I too will make comments on only the Servov2, Ultra13 and FL113.

Where I first detected a difference in resolution and detail was in Patricia Barber's Ode to Billy Joe, from her Café Bleu CD, a piece with just voice and full deep acoustic bass. Lots of deep notes and wood resonance make it a good choice for listening for pitch and detail. The Jl113 strutted its stuff on this one. Listening closely you could hear the resonance of the wood instrument and the detailed pitch of notes. What
surprised me was how well the Ultra performed and though it wasn't as resolving as the Fathom, it was right there with the Servo, a fine sealed sub by any measure. After putting up with the lack of articulate mid bass in my old Ultra, I smiled that SVS had finally fixed their frequency response problem.

Served next was loud percussion jazz piece by the Ozone Percussion Group from the Manger CD test disc. I listened closely for the attack and decay of the kick drum and again the JL113 seemed to rise and get out the way with less overhang than the other 2 subs. On this one I thought I detected better transient response in the Ultra than the Servo but a tad behind the Fathom.

Having gotten a feel for the sonic character of the subs, we played the opening minute from Eric Clapton's Sessions with Robert J DVD, an excellent recording of Clapton in the studio doing modern versions of old Robert Johnson blues numbers. Bassist extraordinaire Nathan East plays some very aggressive bass riffs for 40 seconds at the start of this DVD which makes it a great test for clarity, pitch, resonance, attack and decay. Again the FL113 was a touch better in replicating the "you are there" feeling in the studio with Nathan but it was that fast riff which confirmed to me what a big step up this Ultra was in design. It was taut and responsive lending a fuller fatter sound to the guitar than the Servo. But in the deepest notes it sounded like it had an edgier quality to the Servo and Fathom which made me think of the higher odd order distortion from the AVtalk graphs.

I listened more closely for that edginess on the next two tracks from Chesky Records Guide to Critical Listening, the Bass Resonance test--another 30 sec acoustic bass with a bow playing long drawn notes. Again the Fathom was more resolving of pitch and detail while the Ultra had more edge to the low notes. But I found myself preferring the fuller sound of the Ultra over the Servov2.

The next track was a test for transient response, another fast percussion attack. By now the pattern had been established and I found myself admiring just how much SVS had accomplished with this ported sub. It may not have kept up with the Fathom but it had distanced itself from the
Servo. For what is essentially a large ported alignment, it presented as close to a sealed sub sound as I have ever heard from a vented sub. While plugging ports cannot turn the alignment into a sealed one, SVS has managed to tradeoff enough design parameters to make it work. At this point I said to myself that the Ultra 13 was the most musical ported sub I had heard, surpassing what I have heard in the HSU or Axiom lineup for example.

Turning to HT we went through a few of the usual reference scenes including Master and Commander, Flight of the Phoenix, Open Range, House of Flying Daggers and War of the Worlds. It was time to unplug the Ultra and open up the power of the ports. The big sub really shone with the cannon broadside of the French frigate
in M & C. The cannon recoil could be felt in the chest which is what you are looking for for extra
effect in an HT. I didn't expect the sealed subs to match the Ultra in output but once again the JL seemed to have more texture and detail in its version of this scene. This difference played out again in the shotgun blasts of Open Range. Where the FL113 surpassed the visceral experience of the Ultra was in the Palace scene in House of Flying Daggers where the princess responds to beans being thrown at large musical drums. The deep bass drums are very loud in the recording and the extra definition, less overhang, and faster attack and decay was quite noticeable with the Fathom.

By this point my impressions had solidified with the Ultra providing that high output reasonably
detailed representation of the 28hz laser blasts in WoTW while the JL though not as high in output was just a bit more articulate and textured. The Servo did not have close to the output of the other 2 subs and surprisingly was struggling to show better definition or transient response than the Ultra.

All was well until the amp fuse blew in 10hz mode while playing the Pods emerge scene. The other subs performed as expected while the Ultra conked out which was a surprise seeing how we were plying at only 5db below Dolby reference. In light of that blowout and other reports of amp problems it appears SVS still needs to work on solving a very important design flaw. While the designers hoped to get away with a larger enclosure for more efficiency, the sub could have benefited from a more powerful amp than the Indigo 750w BASH amp that was chosen IMO, especially given what it is aiming for in fully
plugged mode. Its a criticism I had of my old Ultra and which continues to this version. Though not directly comparable because of alignment, the other subs fielded a 2500w Class D in the Fathom, 1250 Class D in the larger DD-18 and 1200w Class d amp in the Servov2.

For the price the Ultra has broken new ground at its price point. It is one helluva capable HT sub which will perform better than most subs with either movies or music. Between the Servo v2 and the Ultra its no contest for the Ultra. As I mentioned I can't think of any ported subs that it can't surpass in overall performance. But the Fathom is the better sub for music applications and does not give up much for HT performance. For those looking for an excellent under $2000 sub the Ultra13 would be an outstanding choice or two for almost the price of one Fathom assuming SVS fixes the amp problem. For others not budget minded and willing to play the diminishing returns game, or looking for high WAF, the Fathom remains the best overall performer especially with music at under $3500. Its no surprise to me that Stereophile just named the Fathom Jl113 a Class A component joining only 2 other subs to be so designated, one of
the others being the Velo DD-18.

In light of my folly with the DD-18 and all the fun we had we tentatively set up a date for a more rigorous session, this time with full equalization in my HT.

Thank you for taking the time and sharing your impressions. It's greatly appreciated. Really nice reviews and thoughts of some quality hardware with a bunch of guys hanging out, having fun and enjoying themselves. A very enjoyable read!!

I second Mozvz comments and hope to do an informal session of my own with the F113 and the PB13 Ultra. Thanks for the information John, excellent writeup.

I second Mozvz comments and hope to do an informal session of my own with the F113 and the PB13 Ultra. Thanks for the information John, excellent writeup.I was wondering if you are the one weez was talking about in Sac and a GTG. Where's my invite?:mad:

thanks for the time and effort it looks as though any one of these would make an ht
happy it appears the ultra and jl would just make them happier.

Before getting into all the observations and opinions I thought we should start on a lighter note. So let's hear your views on:

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? :D


What was the answer? :cool:

Nice comparo there.:) Bummer about the DD setup though.:(

Thanks for posting your impressions...

I was wondering if you are the one weez was talking about in Sac and a GTG. Where's my invite?:mad:

Not to worry Randy, you will be invited. We are still working out the details. I'm trying to arrange to have duals of both subs (PB-13 &F-113). I also need to talk to my insurance agent about a special policy rider. :eek:

Well done John... Thanks for posting their impressions. SVS seems to have a winner on their hands!

Excellent write-up John! Thanks for taking the time and giving additional perspective to these great subs. Please consider throwing in a flagship from HSU when you do your second round. Dual VTF-3 HO's should put it in the proper price class with the others.

Not to worry Randy, you will be invited. We are still working out the details. I'm trying to arrange to have duals of both subs (PB-13 &F-113). I also need to talk to my insurance agent about a special policy rider. :eek:I promise I won't cause too much damage.:)

John - Very nice write up. You guys did a great job, my friend.

You did leave out one thing ... or perhaps I missed it ... what was the drink of the day ? :D

I asked John for his opinion about the Ultra's amp issues on another forum as it did shut down during the tests. I think his response should be seen here as well, so I have taken the liberty to copied it.

Questions for John.
Do you feel that the Ultra would have performed better if a higher rated amp had been used? Because it shut down the amp, it sounds like it is underpowered and doesn’t have enough overhead to get maximum performance from the driver. Also, do you think a foam surround, which is not as stiff as the rubber surround, could have helped with articulation?

John’s reply:
This amp issue is what is holding this Ultra from realizing its huge potential. To stay within the price point I'm sure the designers struggled with trade offs with the various design parameters. The sub amp has always been just as important to performance as the driver, enclosure and electronics yet for reasons not clear to me relatively little discussion centres on the amp.

I asked John for his opinion about the Ultra's amp on another forum. I think his response should be seen here as well, so I have copied it.

Questions for John.
Do you feel that the Ultra would have performed better if a higher rated amp had been used? Because it shut down the amp, it sounds like it is underpowered and doesn’t have enough overhead to get maximum performance from the driver. Also, do you think a foam surround, which is not as stiff as the rubber surround, could have helped with articulation?

John’s reply:
This amp issue is what is holding this Ultra from realizing its huge potential. To stay within the price point I'm sure the designers struggled with trade offs with the various design parameters. The sub amp has always been just as important to performance as the driver, enclosure and electronics yet for reasons not clear to me relatively little discussion centres on the amp.

In my opinion, SVS made a wise decision to protect that magificent driver from being overdriven or bottoming by intentionally keeping the system amp-limited. As it is with just 750 watts, it is one of the best performing commercial subs ever produced at any cost. How much more power would be needed to take it to yet another level? 3db would need 1500 watts. In a ported system, would the driver still be protected? The last thing you would want to do is break that driver.

Mike I don't want to speculate too much on why the designers chose that amp for that enclosure and driver except that like all subs there were tradeoffs that had to be made. The fact that they packed that much performance into that price point deserves huge kudos which I don't give unless I feel is merited. But its not an invincible sub, none of them are. The weak point is the amp (or size of enclosure if that is a factor).

Indigo is a Toronto based amp company who has found a great niche as a sub amp supplier. Their amps are not the greatest solution but if cost is factored in you can see why so many companies use them given the huge competitive pressure to keep prices down. The 750w was a new sized amp but the BASH technology is the same as in the smaller amps. It may be counter intuitive but a more powerful amp is easier on the driver since the likelihood of clipping is reduced. A 1000w power supply would give the Ultra that much more headroom and likely fewer problems with blown fuses and shutdowns.

John - Very nice write up. You guys did a great job, my friend.

You did leave out one thing ... or perhaps I missed it ... what was the drink of the day ? :D


Hey Craig,

Thanks Craig. Always a treat reading your posts too. It would have been great to catch up with you, Jack and Ray again at your place this weekend, but personal matters and this mini-shootout made it impossible to collect another souvenir from the state police at the New York state line. :D

Steve had lots of beer and red wine flowing. He was a terrific host.

A bit off topic, but I think an ICEpower based amp would have been an interesting alternative.

Because Steve is a mod elsewhere I know he was hesitating to post here so I have taken the liberty of posting his views as I know the group benefits from reading different perspectives of what we heard. :cool:


Posted by PBC.

A few of us gathered yesterday at my place to listen to and compare a few outstanding subwoofers from both a music and HT perspective. In attendance was John (aka jakeman), Mark (aka Huff) and Asher (aka The Bogg) who came a tad late and missed much of the music testing. From a “woofer” perspective we had the following:

Paradigm Servo v2
SVS PB13 Ultra
Velodyne DD-18
JL Fathom F113

You can see them in the attached photo from left to right.

As you can see, they took up quite a bit of real estate in my smallish (13x17x9) family room!! Thankfully my wife graciously offered to leave with my 6 month old son and go to her parents for the day!

Due to time constraints, the test was a tad limited. We left the subs in the positions you see in the above photo and simply calibrated their outputs to be identical (basically approx. 5db below reference) using AVIA. We also disengaged any EQ. I.e., room compensation mode was off, PEQ’s were off, no SMS-1 was used, phase set to 0 for all, etc. So take the results with a grain of salt as obviously this was not an “ideal testing” scenario!

The Velo had odd results, in every case seemed to be giving us more impact, but seemed “slower” than the PB13 and F113 and over exaggerated on many tracks which had John wondering about the setup. When we ran the REW graphs midway through the testing, this was confirmed in that there was a boost in the 35hz range for the Velo which we tried to correct but could not. When John went home he checked the Velo again and realized it was a setup issue (kept defaulting to his equalized settings for his HT which obviously would be different from my family room). So I’m going to ignore the sub in my comments below.

The remaining subs REW FR charts were very similar (large null in the 50 to 60 hz range which is just my room).

For music we listened to several of John’s “reference” tracks that he brought along. We kept the PB13 in “sealed” mode for pretty much the entire listening session as many of us were anxious to see how the sealed mode would respond. The tracks were generally as follows:

1. Manger Test CD (Musik wie von einem anderen Stern)
a) Yuri Honing Trio--- Walking on the Moon.
b) O-Zone Percussion Group--- Jazz Variations.
2. Patricia Barber--- Ode to Billy Joe
3. Eric Clapton Sessions with Robert J DVD--- Kind Hearted Woman Blues
4. Chesky Guide to Critical Listening
a) Bass Resonance Test
b) Dynamic Test (percussion)
5. Bruce Springsteen Streets of Philidelphia

For HT, John again had a great DVD made with several of the most challenging scenes from numerous DVD’s. The ones we used with all subs that I will talk to here were:

1. Master and Commander--first encounter with French frigateWOTW – Pods emerging scene
2. Flight of the Phoenix--Desert Crash
3. War of The Worlds-- Laser blasts and Pods Emerge
4. House of Flying Daggers--Palace beans and drums (an incredible scene for bass which I have not heard before!)
5. U571--Depth Charged

There was another shootout/gun shot scene from a western movie with Kevin Costner, but the name escapes me now. I’ll discuss a few of the scenes below, focusing mainly on the F113 v the PB13.

Music Impressions:

Personally I found that during pretty much every track the F113 and SVS in sealed mode were 1 and 2 and quite close, with an edge to the F113 overall. While I’m not quite the audiophile John is, it did seem to me that the F113 was “tighter/cleaner” from the standpoint that it seemed to hit a tad faster and recover a tad quicker than the PB13 in sealed mode. It also seemed to give me a bit more “umph” in the chest than the PB13 in some instances. But again, were talking very minor edge, at least to me. While I won’t put words in their mouths, I will say we were all extremely impressed/surprised with just how good the PB13 in sealed mode performed. Personally I thought it, in many ways, sounded better than the Servo v2 which is a dedicated sealed woofer and compared quite well to the JL F113 which costs more than double! That is an extremely impressive feat for a sub that is a ported design with a “sealed” option available to it.

We tested the PB13 in 20hz mode for one track which definitely increased the “umph” but didn’t sound as good as sealed mode to our ears.

Movies:

From an HT perspective, to me, the PB13 simply outshined the other subs, with the F113 a very close second. It consistently delivered the goods here and was providing an estimated 2 to 3 db greater output than the F113 (based on a very rudimentary test of running a scene and checking for the Max SPL level the subs would individually hit) and quite a few more db than the Servo. For instance, on the Phoenix scene, the PB13 was very articulate and was giving a prodigious amount of clean output literally making me feel like I was in the plane as it was going down. The F113, while just as articulate (possibly a tad more so in this particular scene?) and impressive from an output perspective, lagged just a tad versus the PB13 in my opinion. It, to me, didn’t give the same visceral impact that the PB13 gave off. The Servo was impressive as well, but lagged behind both the F113 and PB13 in my mind.

During the laser scene of WOTW in 20hz mode, again, the PB13 slammed you in the chest wonderfully and you could feel/hear the nuances of the laser. With the F113, again, it almost seemed like it had a tad more articulation to it, but didn’t provide as much impact as the PB13. Keep in mind, when I say “not as much impact” we are literally talking 2db here and the sub was outstanding but to me a tad behind the PB13. Again the Servo was articulate and provided that “in your chest” slam, just lagged behind the PB13 and F113.

The Pods Emerging scene was quite the treat. We put the PB13 into 10hz mode here and personally I was blown away by the output, depth, and articulation of the scene in my house. Pretty much everyone was smiling during this scene and commenting on how impressive it was. I was literally afraid the foundation was going to crack! Unfortunately, about a minute or so into the scene, the PB13’s amp was also blown away and simply shut down (more on this below). Possibly a blown fuse?

The F113 was the only other sub we tested with the Pods Emerging scene as I had to cut the day off early to get to my father’s birthday dinner. It was also extremely impressive, but again, to me didn’t reach as deep as the PB13 in this particular scene. We did not test the Servo or Velo on this scene.

Fit and Finish

Another nod to the PB13 in my mind. The PB13 in rosewood is simply a stunning piece of furniture and the clean lines of the sub are outstanding. The magnet grill is also a wonderful addition. The F113 was also incredible from a fit/finish perspective, but in my room the “end table” furniture look of the PB13 wins over the gloss black look of the F113 (according to my wife anyhow!). The Servo, to me, just looked dated, the DD-18 was impressive, but personally I’m not a fan of the huge gloss black woofer.

Conclusions

Again, everything I say here is my own personal opinion and highly subjective.

From a music perspective, I had to give the nod to the F113 versus the PB13 in sealed mode. I had difficulties on some tracks comparing the subs (as I couldn’t tell a difference), but on others the F113 seemed to “sound” better than the PB13 and seemed to have a bit more output or “slam” than the SVS. Hard to put my finger on exact reasons, but the F113 just sounded better. But again, we are talking about, to me, what was a very slight difference.

From an HT perspective, as I’ve stated, my preference was the PB13 over the rest of the subs period. I love that visceral feeling and the PB13 delivered the goods time and time again, and was incredibly “articulate” while doing it!

I have to say one thing though, the F113 is an incredible feat of engineering. I don’t know how many times I looked at that little box and wondered “I can’t believe that bass is coming from that little sealed sub”. An absolutely stunning performer regardless of size, but beyond belief when you consider its size in relation to the other subs.

I don’t think I’d be remised to say that everyone agreed that dollar for dollar, the PB13 simply could not be beat and none of us would hesitate recommending it. The only reservation was the fact that others have had similar amp issues, but it’s clear SVS is on this and will fix this (see below).

To me, the PB13 is simply the sub to have in the under $2,500 range, and in a primarily HT application even at double that, especially where size is not an issue. The fact that it competes and in many cases wins over subs that are considerably more in cost (in some cases more than double) speaks volumes. When you think you can have two of these for the price of 1 F113, the choice, to me, is obvious.

Having said that, if prices were the same, I would give the nod to the F113 -- in my family room that is. Why? For the simple reason that the form factor of that sub is incredible as it is a perfect size from a WAF perspective (see my other link for what my wife thought when she saw the PB13 in our hallway!!) and would “fit” better in my smallish room. Further, from an HT perspective (and my ratio is probably 85/15 HT to music) while I found it lagged behind the SVS in terms of output/slam, it was still an incredible performer and I don’t think I’d miss the output since it was very, very close. If you can’t tell from my comments above, I was very much impressed with the F113 from a size/performance perspective for sure. But I just couldn’t justify spending that kind of money on a sub for the amount of time I use it and hence went with the PB13, which I absolutely love (although wish it was a tad smaller, but I knew that going in).

If I had a basement theater and space was less of an issue, then I’d go with the PB13 (again, prices being equal) over the F113 as I put a premium on HT over music.

After comparing these subs I have to say anyone would be extremely happy with any of the 4 of them. I am definitely extremely pleased with my choice to go with the PB13 and if I had to go back and make the decision again, well for me it’s still a no-brainer, the SVS would still be in my family room and my wife would still hate me!

PB13 Amp failure

As many of you have read, I have been having some amp troubles (well, assume it’s the amp anyhow) ever since I picked this sub up, as have some others. Even the morning of the test I started having difficulties in that the output was again about 15db down from where it normally was (see my other thread here … http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.... ). I unplugged the sub and left it alone for an hour and thankfully it seemed to be fine after I tested it again.

It was definitely an embarrassing moment when it simply stopped working in the Pods Emerging scene, but thankfully that was about 15 minutes before we had to leave anyhow!

It didn’t appear to have an impact otherwise during the day based on the output we were getting from the sub, but we will be reconvening at Jakeman’s theater sometime in October to do a “true” blind listening test with all subs in the same position, pre-calibrated using John’s SMS in his dedicated/treated home theater.

One thing I’ve always been leery of in buying an ID sub has been “what happens when something goes wrong and what kind of service will I get”. Well, no worries whatsoever on that end. SVS has simply been outstanding from a customer service perspective and will be sending me a new “tested/tortured” amp to install in my PB13. I have traded emails at odd hours (including Sundays) with Ed and Ron at SVS and they are absolutely going to take care of the issue. Truly a first class operation there and in a day and age when that is hard to come by I have to tip my hat to these guys.


The day was incredible and a ton of fun. The company was outstanding and it was great meeting John, Asher and Mark for sure. I look forward to hopefully being able to compare the subs in John's dedicated HT theater for sure!

Happy to answer any questions/comments you may have so ask away!!

STeve

In my opinion, SVS made a wise decision to protect that magnificent driver from being overdriven or bottoming by intentionally keeping the system amp-limited. As it is with just 750 watts, it is one of the best performing commercial subs ever produced at any cost. How much more power would be needed to take it to yet another level? 3db would need 1500 watts. In a ported system, would the driver still be protected? The last thing you would want to do is break that driver.

I am not suggesting a higher rated amp to get more output from the driver. There are better methods of limiting power to the driver than blowing the fuse or shutting down the amp. I don't know if the shut down is from a thermal limiter or if it is the protection. I would hope it is the former as the later is a poor choice of protection. Giving more headroom to the amp would allow for better protection by having compression circuits that don't allow you to overdrive the cone. If this does prove to be a flaw in the amp, then I am confident it will be corrected. If it is a weakness of the design, then SVS is going to have to make some hard choices.

I'll tell you what is wrong with that picture. I just went into my unfinished basement and low and behold this is what I found, which wasn't there before!!

I'm filing suit against Paradigm, SVS, Velo and JL as I type this ...

pbc,

Gray paint in the cracks. Pre GTG. :)

I'll tell you what is wrong with that picture. I just went into my unfinished basement and low and behold this is what I found, which wasn't there before!!

I'm filing suit against Paradigm, SVS, Velo and JL as I type this ...Just pray a pod doesn't start to emerge from that crack. Have you noticed any strange lightening storms lately?

A big thanks to Steve (pbc) for hosting and having me along on Sunday, to John (jakeman) for lugging his JL and Velo with him to make for a great demo, and to Asher (The Bogg) for dropping in with more demo tracks (and just in time to instigate the next round of wine!).

I snapped the pic at the top just to get a shot of the subs and realized later that I caught Clapton as well. It was a good day!

I've been researching subs in the 1.5K - 2.5K CDN range for several months (short list is PB13, Servo15v2, Axiom EP500v2 & EP600v2 ... the JL113 and VeloDD18 are beyond my price range new and likely still beyond it if used). I was the lone attendee who doesn't currently own 1 of the demoed subs (and the least knowledgable) so my approach was more to gather info for a purchase decision. I'll buy within the next 3 months.

Being it was my first sub comparative listening demo and I was hearing some (great!) tracks of music for the first time, here's what I took away (just my relatively inexperienced opinions...)

JL113 - overall winner. Wow. You look at the (relatively) small box and say how does it play that loud and sound that good? Amazing. If I had a bigger budget, I'd buy this no question.

PB13 - close 2nd. Considering its price, best value for $$$. Performed above my expectation. Better than expected for music and highest max. output for HT (which is 90% of my use). It delivered the much talked about kick to the chest. Rosenut finish is beautiful. Still on my short list. Very nearly bought one on last day of pre-order (Sept. 1 here in CAN). I'd like to see a solid explanation/resolution to the few amp issues out there (though I'm convinced SVS will make it right for every owner).

Servo15v2 - 3rd. Very good for music. Very little difference between it and the PB13 for music - that's more a compliment to the PB13 than a knock on the Servo. It had noticeably less overall output in the demanding HT scenes than all the others (although it's possible that room placement hurt it there). Just a few db less but still noticeable. Very good, for music and HT, but not wow. Finish not as nice as PB13. I guess it just wasn't a fair fight for max. output vs. the PB13! I'd still buy one but only at a good sale price well below the $2700 CDN MSRP.

VeloDD18 - not fair to comment. It very surprisingly sounded a bit boomy (I have a $400 sub in an untreated room ... so I know what boomy sounds like :) ) and it turns out (after running a REW sweep AFTER the listening) we found it had a 4-5 db boost ~35 Hz due to equalization settings left on for its home room. I know, I know ... why didn't we run the REW sweeps BEFORE listening? :o Well, I was the one with the REW so it was my rookie mistake. One that I as a grizzled veteran :D will not make again!

I'm looking forward to another session with the Velo setup correctly (cause you never know if/when someone might want to sell it, eh, John? ;) ) and maybe an Axiom EP600 or EP500 (or both) added in. Then I'll make my decision and go on to the toughest task of all - convincing my wife why we "need" a new sub!

Next round we'll definitely need more wine ... I mean time ... well, I guess with the latter comes the former!


PBC

Geez, and I thought spending 500 bucks on a sub was a lot. What do you guys do for a living? :eek:

We are all financial consultants. We instruct people how to live beyond their means and we practice what we preach. It's the American way. Get some plastic and spend at least 3 times your budget.

my question:
what went wrong with the SVS ... is it user serviceable?

because, people really can't be sending their amps in everytime they want to "play" with their subwoofer.

What SPL's were you getting for these scenes...

Esp the WOTW and FOTP scenes.....

102db**21:12 to 21:15 Alien Pound Under Earth
109db**21:43 to 21:50 Grounding Turning and shaking
109db**23:11 Ground Implodes down
110db**23:35 Tripod first puts foot out
109db**23:46 Tripod Smashes the Car with its foot
109db**26:22 First Heat Ray
110db**27:19 Massive Heat Ray blows up building
111db**31:48 to 31:52 Tanker Explosion
105db**59:14 Ferry---First Foot Stomp
105db**59:18 Ferry---Second Foot Stomp
104db**59:20 Alien "sound" tone (Initial Freq)
101db**59:24 Alien 'sound" tone (LOWER Freq)
105db**1:10:09 Fireball Explosion/Alien Appears
110db**1:45:13 Low Sweep when Alien Crashes to the Ground


I got those numbers with a 16-46+ What can a PB13 do? ( I know room size has a lot to do with this too, but I'm curious)

Thanks to pbc for his hospitality. I showed up a bit late and would have had to guzzle a lot of booze to catch up but didn't since I might have to go back to work.

Jakeman, Steve, and Huff have given great descriptions of the afternoon. I'll give my 0.02 just to add a little to it:

The four excellent subs were heard in an unfamiliar environment with different equipment than I own. They weren't placed in exactly the same spot, just spread out as the picture indicates. The measurements for each of the subs indicated a big dip in the response around 50-60hz, of the same magnitude for all the subs indicating it was a room-related dip. The fathom was by far the "flattest" measuring sub from 50hz down. The SVS had a bit of a peak around 40hz or so (a few db iirc).

None of the subs were "optimized", we just listened to them as is without any sms or aro active (the velo had incorrect settings as per Jakeman's description). All were calibrated to the same level.

I think the paradigm is a really nice sub as is the velo. My interest was in hearing the fathom and the svs. I thought they both sounded great. I'm not sure I could draw any valid conclusions about their relative merits because of the unfamiliarity with the room and equipment. I do have a pair of F113s and can say they sound very different in my basement than the F113 did at pbc's place. I do understand that 2 subs will sound different than one but imho the bigger difference was the room and setup.

For ht, svs has a superb presentation. I was just thinking of how the sub sounded almost unflappable with the pod rising scene at high volume. Ironically, it was right then that I noticed that it had stopped working! :eek: The woofer was doing the funky chicken just prior to this and there was just a small amount of "distress" suggesting that it had reached max output just prior to the sub conking out - amp related failure from what I understand.

The same scene sounded quite good with the fathom but I agree that it didn't have the same impact, but remember that it didn't have the same peak at 40hz or so. I didn't hear any distortion from the fathom at the same level we played the svs prior to it shutting down. When I listened to this scene in my own home I can say that it was on a different level. Having 2 fathoms makes a big difference but I think the room response was very different in my basement with no large suckouts. There was FAR more pant-leg-flapping in my place even at lower overall volume settings (-8db at my place vs -5db at pbc's).

The bottom line imho is that one shouldn't make any buying decisions based on our get together. However, if you're asking my opinion...here it is! If you can convince your significant other that it isn't too big and you can afford it...buy the svs, you won't regret it. While the overall look of the sub doesn't appeal to me I can't deny it's value and virtues. At this price point it is just ludicrous how good it is for ht. I'm not dissing it for music, I just can't say for sure either way. All of the subs were calibrated a little "hot" for my taste on the music so I wouldn't have listened to any of them at home like that. I'm a believer in full range main speakers - I may try to integrate my fathoms with my ATC signature 100 active towers but I'm quite happy with them the way they are. The Rives-designed room will be constructed in the next few months (hopefully!) and then I'll see about having these guys over with the subs again in an optimized room for another sub round-up. I'll be sure to be off work on that day so that I can also dip into the sauce. ;)

Thanks all you guys, pbc, jackman, huff and the Bogg. Great reporting...

I think the only conclusions that can be drawn is that you guys had some fun. Since no sub was optimized, they were all equally disadvantaged except that we know a few inches can make a big difference...and if you had the time to dial each in...there might have been less or more variance in your opinions. Particularly for the DD18.

None of the subs would ever get kicked out of my house.

Give it another whirl at John's place...take your time and jump from wine to Scotch neat...a couple of days later when you recover, report back :D.

What SPL's were you getting for these scenes...

Esp the WOTW and FOTP scenes.....

102db**21:12 to 21:15 Alien Pound Under Earth
109db**21:43 to 21:50 Grounding Turning and shaking
109db**23:11 Ground Implodes down
110db**23:35 Tripod first puts foot out
109db**23:46 Tripod Smashes the Car with its foot
109db**26:22 First Heat Ray
110db**27:19 Massive Heat Ray blows up building
111db**31:48 to 31:52 Tanker Explosion
105db**59:14 Ferry---First Foot Stomp
105db**59:18 Ferry---Second Foot Stomp
104db**59:20 Alien "sound" tone (Initial Freq)
101db**59:24 Alien 'sound" tone (LOWER Freq)
105db**1:10:09 Fireball Explosion/Alien Appears
110db**1:45:13 Low Sweep when Alien Crashes to the Ground


I got those numbers with a 16-46+ What can a PB13 do? ( I know room size has a lot to do with this too, but I'm curious)


Brad, with FOTP I noted 111db from my PB13. This was in my 6120 cu.ft. wide open room, 13ft from the sub with the PB13 operating alone. This was definitely not maxed out. There was more gas in the tank. I just didn't go there yet.

Wow, great shootout guys. Thanks so much for sharing. It's not often you get a group of experienced audio guys to demo four great subs.

I have a few comments, and a few questions for the reviewers. First, the questions:

So much depends on the WAF. Is the F113 really that great of a WAF type sub being gloss black with top controls? It would surely stand out in a family room compared to an "end type table" in oak or rosenut/rosewood.

You guys mention a stronger amp. Was the output bearable when driven 5dB below reference level before the fuse blew? I'm just wondering how many buyers of the PB13 will come that close to pushing it to its limits? I agree, a fuse shouldn't blow to protect a sub. There should be other types of limiters built into the amp to cut off the dB output or Hz extension.

Now, the comments:

I don't think a "blind" test is necessary in this day and age. Perception is half reality, and if seeing the movement of a sub's driver makes one think and feel it is better, then it should be taken into consideration. ie... Close your eyes at a quarter mile track, and listen to a Viper run down the track. Then listen to a Ferrari. The Viper wins the time trials, but the look and sound of the Ferrari melts your ears. One should use all his senses to compare the subs - and that should include video if available.

I don't see the need to spend over $2000 for any sub in any type of home environment. Once one surpasses $1600, they could easily make a DIY type sub to fill an unusually large space. My Plus/2 fills a huge space open to 2 rooms, a hallway, and basement and is twice the output I need for music/movies. Every now and then I'll take it to its limit, but it's much too much for anyone else not into HT or concert level music.

IMHO, those interested in great bass for music should really focus on their mains first, then subwoofer. I used to have large mains in the 80's with 12" woofers. Since towers nowadays sport 6.5" drivers, they've lost a ton of chest slamming, efficient bass. Subwoofers have been called upon to make up for that bass, which isn't fair since these subwoofers shine at lower Hz's. I see a large hole in the Hz range from 80Hz - 300Hz. No 6.5" tower driver sounds like a dedicated 12" woofer meant for reproducing music from 40Hz on up.

Thanks again guys for a great review of some of the best subs on the market. You chose some great material for testing them out as well. Your hard work and time is much appreciated, and an invaluable tool for forum members to evaluate tough choices on such a large purchase.

So much depends on the WAF. Is the F113 really that great of a WAF type sub being gloss black with top controls? It would surely stand out in a family room compared to an "end type table" in oak or rosenut/rosewood.

The high WAF comes strictly from its small size. Usually, the ladies like large size but for some reason it doesn't apply to subwoofers. :( Rob (RMK) can explain how he was forced to sell his 2 month old DD-18 in exchange for the FL113 so he could hide it under an end table. You are right they all don't like gloss black. I've been hearing rumours of a wood option for the fathom but that may be wishful thinking seeing how flex proof that small enclosure needs to be given the high pressure inside the box.

You guys mention a stronger amp. Was the output bearable when driven 5dB below reference level before the fuse blew? I'm just wondering how many buyers of the PB13 will come that close to pushing it to its limits? I agree, a fuse shouldn't blow to protect a sub. There should be other types of limiters built into the amp to cut off the dB output or Hz extension.



I don't know anyone who plays the audio gear close to reference in an open living space. Steve's wife and kid were not home so we raised it to -5db which was very loud in that relatively small room. On the other hand I have a 3500cf acoustically treated HT which sounds great at refereence levels. However my kids did once ask me if I could turn down the volume because the pawns were moving on their chessboard in a room above.

Limiters are a worthwhile and important part of the amp circuitry. They are not the problem and are doing what they are supposed to do. As I mentioned the real issue lies with overdriving the amps limited power supply.

Thanks all you guys, pbc, jackman, huff and the Bogg. Great reporting...

I think the only conclusions that can be drawn is that you guys had some fun. Since no sub was optimized, they were all equally disadvantaged except that we know a few inches can make a big difference...and if you had the time to dial each in...there might have been less or more variance in your opinions. Particularly for the DD18.

None of the subs would ever get kicked out of my house.

Give it another whirl at John's place...take your time and jump from wine to Scotch neat...a couple of days later when you recover, report back :D.

Scotch neat does make for sonic improvements and I've found its one of the best all round A/V tweaks one can make. Its sacrilegious putting ice in fine scotch which I do on occasion and made me the butt of jokes at a Edinburgh bar 20 years ago. :)

You're right about all the factors that can affect sound but still after 4 hours the nuances do come through and it wasn't just my ears. I was very interested in Mark's impressions because he is just now looking for his first sub and had the benefit of never having heard any of the 4 subs we tested. Its a matter of knowing what to listen for but most people listening intently will start to pick out the differences in a side by side comparison after continuous listening with various material . Many good comments and observations have been made which are rather accurate assessments of sound quality and relative performance which we hope will be helpful.

JL113 - overall winner. Wow. You look at the (relatively) small box and say how does it play that loud and sound that good? Amazing.

If I had a bigger budget, I'd buy this no question.
If JL Audio would lower the price on this little baby, everyone would buy it no question! ;)

If JL Audio would lower the price on this little baby, everyone would buy it no question! ;)

No doubt they would sell way more, but even if the JL were the same price as the PB13, I personally would opt for the PB13. Reasons: #1, Much more output down deep and #2, Nice wood veneer finish.

The high WAF comes strictly from its small size. Usually, the ladies like large size but for some reason it doesn't apply to subwoofers. :( Rob (RMK) can explain how he was forced to sell his 2 month old DD-18 in exchange for the FL113 so he could hide it under an end table.

Ah yes WAF … In my case it was also MAF (My Approval Factor). When your primary living space becomes “decorated” with audio gear of all sizes and flavors it can become obtrusive. My family room HT media room looked OK for what it was, but even I got tired of sharing space with all that gear and the inevitable compromises. Minimizing the compromises is why I built a dedicated space where AV is the priority. That said, I still prefer the look of smaller subs (especially with duals)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1793.jpg
but this preference does not preclude adding another larger sub elsewhere in the room (can you say Conquest?).

No doubt they would sell way more, but even if the JL were the same price as the PB13, I personally would opt for the PB13. Reasons: #1, Much more output down deep and #2, Nice wood veneer finish.
Yeah, good point. I guess JL is SOL. ;)

Seriously, though, if they were the same price (which obviously they're not, nor will they be) lots of folks would opt for the smaller sized box, and might even buy a pair of 'em. Moot point though. :)


EDIT: Actually, if the PB13 were 24 inches deep instead of 27, I'd buy one. Or two. Yep, that extra 3 inches makes a difference. Just ask your wife if -- wait, on second though, never mind! :D

(can you say Conquest?).
Con -- Quest.

Sure... I knew thatcha could. :)

If JL Audio would lower the price on this little baby, everyone would buy it no question! ;)

You will probably never find a new one at the Ultra price, unless it is some sort of buyout or soemthing.

But, when the JL113 first came out and were not reviewed, dealers were selling them for $1999. If I remember correctly dealer cost was/is < $1670. The generally accepted street price is ~$2500. So, if you can find a dealer that you can cozy up to there are deals out there....

Most products at this level have a 100% markup if that helps.

But, when the JL113 first came out and were not reviewed, dealers were selling them for $1999. If I remember correctly dealer cost was/is < $1670.
Holy cr@p. I had no idea the mark-up was so high.

JL Audio would be better off lowering the price and selling these things direct. They'd sell a lot more subs.

BTW, the local dealer I dealt with was not worth that kind of mark-up.

Holy cr@p. I had no idea the mark-up was so high.

JL Audio would be better off lowering the price and selling these things direct. They'd sell a lot more subs.

BTW, the local dealer I dealt with was not worth that kind of mark-up.

Ya, that is typical for that kind of product, same goes for Velodyne, Paradigm etc., any high end gear.
It is really based on the fact that the dealers provide services and conveniences to those that are looking to buy higher end products. Those services cost money and the dealers need to cover those costs. Also, often manufacturers want their products to be well supported and setup correctly, this where dealers come in. It takes quite a bit of resources and headaches to deal with the public, nothing comes for free. But, even at those prices the JL113 is not overly priced in my opinion. There is a lot of value and performance in that little box.

Those markups are what drive a lot of us over to DIY.

Ah yes WAF … In my case it was also MAF (My Approval Factor). When your primary living space becomes “decorated” with audio gear of all sizes and flavors it can become obtrusive. My family room HT media room looked OK for what it was, but even I got tired of sharing space with all that gear and the inevitable compromises. Minimizing the compromises is why I built a dedicated space where AV is the priority. That said, I still prefer the look of smaller subs (especially with duals)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1793.jpg
but this preference does not preclude adding another larger sub elsewhere in the room (can you say Conquest?).

very nicely done Rob....you've come a long way! excellent layout. :)

btw, where did you get your cabinet from? which model?

You will probably never find a new one at the Ultra price, unless it is some sort of buyout or soemthing.

But, when the JL113 first came out and were not reviewed, dealers were selling them for $1999. If I remember correctly dealer cost was/is < $1670. The generally accepted street price is ~$2500. So, if you can find a dealer that you can cozy up to there are deals out there....


Man, if I could get the 113 for $2000 US, I'd be all over it, but here in Canada, retailers are listing it for $5000 CAD MSRP. That's just ridiculous considering that the US and Canadian dollar is at par.

That's just ridiculous...
Yep.

Man, if I could get the 113 for $2000 US, I'd be all over it, but here in Canada, retailers are listing it for $5000 CAD MSRP. That's just ridiculous considering that the US and Canadian dollar is at par.

Wow, that is insane, especially when MSRP is $3300! Yoy!

Even at $3000+ (at least in the US) the JL f113 is an excellent value for being able to produce such excellent bass from a relatively compact package. No one else has been able to accomplish this feat as well as JL. Attempting to cheat physics does not come cheap. It takes a very strong driver, amp, and box to do it. It all has to be well engineered and then needs to be produced and sold for a profit. Even if they sold it internet direct, they could not compete pricewise with much larger 13Ultra. It's just so much easier to get great bass and high volume out of a big box.

Attempting to cheat physics does not come cheap.
Apparently it takes about $1670. ;)

Apparently it takes about $1670. ;)

:D:D

And that is with a lot more overhead than an internet direct company like SVS. There is a little profit thrown in there too.

And that is with a lot more overhead than an internet direct company like SVS. There is a little profit thrown in there too.
Bingo.

Wow, great shootout guys. Thanks so much for sharing. It's not often you get a group of experienced audio guys to demo four great subs.

I have a few comments, and a few questions for the reviewers. First, the questions:

So much depends on the WAF. Is the F113 really that great of a WAF type sub being gloss black with top controls? It would surely stand out in a family room compared to an "end type table" in oak or rosenut/rosewood.

You guys mention a stronger amp. Was the output bearable when driven 5dB below reference level before the fuse blew? I'm just wondering how many buyers of the PB13 will come that close to pushing it to its limits? I agree, a fuse shouldn't blow to protect a sub. There should be other types of limiters built into the amp to cut off the dB output or Hz extension.

Now, the comments:

I don't think a "blind" test is necessary in this day and age. Perception is half reality, and if seeing the movement of a sub's driver makes one think and feel it is better, then it should be taken into consideration. ie... Close your eyes at a quarter mile track, and listen to a Viper run down the track. Then listen to a Ferrari. The Viper wins the time trials, but the look and sound of the Ferrari melts your ears. One should use all his senses to compare the subs - and that should include video if available.

I don't see the need to spend over $2000 for any sub in any type of home environment. Once one surpasses $1600, they could easily make a DIY type sub to fill an unusually large space. My Plus/2 fills a huge space open to 2 rooms, a hallway, and basement and is twice the output I need for music/movies. Every now and then I'll take it to its limit, but it's much too much for anyone else not into HT or concert level music.


I almost choked when I read "experienced audio guys". That is definately not me! :o

As for WAF, I agree with John on that one. It's the size of the F113 that makes it so attractive. My wife, after seeing the picture of the subs in the room still commented "I don't want another glossy black table in my room regardless of size" (I used to have the gloss black Mirage OM200 and my speakers are all gloss black). If JL came out with a Rosewood finish, that would be an impressive looking sub!

I don't believe my issue has/had anything to do with the output of the sub as I was having difficulties with the amp before hand that had nothing to do with running it anywhere near reference (you can read about it over at my SPoT thread which I think is linked here). Further, when I replaced the fuse a day later it blew right off the bat as soon as I turned the amp on, which isn't an issue related to "too much output for the amp to handle" or overdriving the sub, at least to my knowledge.

Personally I definately think blind test are actually quite worthwhile. It's human nature is to favour the things you have personally spent money on (whether or not you know you are doing it), especially hard earned money after hours and hours of research! Testing gear "blind" is a great way to even out the playing field, if you can do it properly.

As for spending over $2,000 vs DIY, guess it depends on what value you place on your own time (ignoring the obvious "just how good are you at it") and of course how much money are you comfortable spending at the end of the day.

I personally (with my father-in-law) did the interlocking and deck at my house and probably saved $5 to $7k or more in labour alone. While I enjoyed doing it and am proud of the results, to be honest I'd have rather spend the money to have someone else do it and spent my weekends golfing or doing something else as I work upwards of 60 to 70 hours a week and cherish my weekend time off. Of course, having an Italian father-in-law who believes everything should be done by hand or you're not a real man (which my wife of course also believes :rolleyes:) resulted in some very painful weekends and a broken back after digging out 26 tonnes of dirt and then hauling of 26 tonnes of screening and gravel to replace the dirt plus whatever the interlocking stones weighed!! As for why there was 26 tonnes (as my house is not that large), that is of course due to the fact that my father-in-law also believes that you should triple whatever the recommended amount of materials is to ensure it "lasts" because the professionals have no idea what they are doing. As you can see, I'm still scarred by the event! :(

PBC

Man, if I could get the 113 for $2000 US, I'd be all over it, but here in Canada, retailers are listing it for $5000 CAD MSRP. That's just ridiculous considering that the US and Canadian dollar is at par.

Let's not even go there, that is another discussion altogether that has many of us quite ticked off!! Must be the "additional" frieght and duties that causes the 50% markups here! Okay okay ... rant off ...

:D:D

And that is with a lot more overhead than an internet direct company like SVS. There is a little profit thrown in there too.

I suggest people not be quite so harsh on JL for pricing things appropriate for their target market and profitably to allow them to service you for a long time. SVS keeps the strings tight, but they aren't loosing money. :rolleyes:

It is almost universally less expensive for a manufacturer to sell to a dealer than to an end user. The price differential comes into play with the varying dealer mark-ups and discounts. The dealers handling the service and serving as the shipping and distribution locations streamline operation for a manufacturer. The point is that even if they magically shifted to a ID model, there is no way JL would sell a subwoofer direct to the end user at whatever the dealer pricing is.

The JL products are sexy solutions using serious materials that have costs. Amplifiers 2500W power supplies aren't cheap. :rolleyes:

The other irony here is that I am almost certain that in the retail market, I'm sure Mr. Smith has plenty of dealers/installers tell him they are priced to low as they compare well to the Aerial, Revels, Thiels and Wilson's of the world...

Let's not even go there, that is another discussion altogether that has many of us quite ticked off!! Must be the "additional" frieght and duties that causes the 50% markups here! Okay okay ... rant off ...

Yeah, I know, i didn't really want to go there, but I guess I was a bit peeved knowing that the F113 was such a good deal before and I missed out on it, and now that it has achieved critical mass as a "great sub", the likelihood of ever me owning this sub is next to nill due to dealer knowing they have a good thing on their hands (it's more than I'd ever be willing to pay)

I guess that the fixed priced model of ID subs just makes me feel better buying one because I know I paid a fair price compared to everyone else. Now all I need to do is wait for SVS to shove their Ultra driver into a sealed enclosure. What I'm looking for is a big brother to their SB12

I don't think there is anyone out there that would argue that JL doesn't have a great product. It is one of the best to date at any price, especially considering the size and package. There is no question that is worth every penny when compared to the competition. I don't know of another sub of that size, with that fit and finish, that sound quality for that price, even at MSRP.

very nicely done Rob....you've come a long way! excellent layout. :)

btw, where did you get your cabinet from? which model?

Thanks Sherv, it’s been fun getting the room together. Now the long process of optimizing;).

The cabinet is a Bello PR10-C. Shipping weight on it was 225lbs:eek:. What I liked best about it is the Plasma stand (no wall hangers needed). Very nice design and it will take the larger displays.

Sorry for the OT guys :o

Man, if I could get the 113 for $2000 US, I'd be all over it, but here in Canada, retailers are listing it for $5000 CAD MSRP. That's just ridiculous considering that the US and Canadian dollar is at par.

Ridiculous is an understatement for us Canadians. At $2000 US I would be driving to the dealer as fast as I could.

John

All was well until the amp fuse blew in 10hz mode while playing the Pods emerge scene. The other subs performed as expected while the Ultra conked out which was a surprise seeing how we were plying at only 5db below Dolby reference. In light of that blowout and other reports of amp problems it appears SVS still needs to work on solving a very important design flaw. While the designers hoped to get away with a larger enclosure for more efficiency, the sub could have benefited from a more powerful amp than the Indigo 750w BASH amp that was chosen IMO, especially given what it is aiming for in fully
plugged mode. Its a criticism I had of my old Ultra and which continues to this version. Though not directly comparable because of alignment, the other subs fielded a 2500w Class D in the Fathom, 1250 Class D in the larger DD-18 and 1200w Class d amp in the Servov2.


This is the only thing holding me back, its obviously a problem issue.:( After reading enough threads its ability with music seems to be accepted as significantly above average. It also seems to answer the issues previous SVS subs (like my old PB12NSD) had with music.:)

John

Earlier today, in the following thread, Tom V. of SVS replied to some questions regarding the recent situation with some delivered PB13 units.

http://***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/138686/post/830589/#830589

Thanks Sherv, it’s been fun getting the room together. Now the long process of optimizing;).

The cabinet is a Bello PR10-C. Shipping weight on it was 225lbs:eek:. What I liked best about it is the Plasma stand (no wall hangers needed). Very nice design and it will take the larger displays.

Sorry for the OT guys :o

very well ROb.....I'm in the middle of looking for a cabinet as my 2-year old cannot stop yanking stuff out of the equipment, so I have to find an enclosed cabinet before he wrecks everything! :o I had my eyes on the salamander, studiotech, and the bello's........yours looks very nice indeed. ;)

. . . Now all I need to do is wait for SVS to shove their Ultra driver into a sealed enclosure. What I'm looking for is a big brother to their SB12

Warp, SVS has replied to this at the Spot -- the current Ultra driver is not designed for small sealed cabinet use. It'll take a completely new driver, ballpark 2kW amp (2x what Indigo has built to date), and new EQ. In short it would be a totally new engineering project. Even if SVS succeeded in getting, say, 95% of JLs SQ for, say $2500, IMO folks in this market would still buy the JL.

Earlier today, in the following thread, Tom V. of SVS replied to some questions regarding the recent situation with some delivered PB13 units.

http://***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/138686/post/830589/#830589

I saw nothing useful in his response. It just led me to the conclusion that the amps are defective and some hogwash on rating amplifiers. I doubt they would ever admit to a design error on their flagship sub. On the other side this sub has been getting nothing but positive to stellar reviews in real world use. Maybe it's not really designed to be tested in sealed mode under extreme duress. That's my guess.

Speakers generally have a 40-60% markup depending on the brand. Wendy's has a 75% markup on value meals and I eat there all the time.

I wonder how much markup SVS has? I have read guesses in the past for 45% due to the fact that they add marketing and partial replacement drivers into the cost. HSU Research has a 50+% markup from what I have read.

These companies are supposed to make a profit and they are not going to live in apartments and keep used Hondas so hobbyists here can get stuff cheaper. I agree that these companies should tell their kids to get a scholarship or else.

If it's too expensive, don't buy it. DIY is always the cheapest option.

Yes, Thomas you are a troll. Go find a bridge.

Tim

If it's too expensive, don't buy it. DIY is always the cheapest option.

No question there!

After selling an SVS Ultra/2 in the quest of getting more performance and better SQ, I was in the process of deciding between a DD-18 and JL113. That adventure helped me glean quite a bit of info about the dealer networks, markups, driver and amp technologies, cost vs. performance, etc.

I took a gander at the DIY section and it has paid off big time. With a little time and patience it is unreal what can be done, all while having a great time doing it.

I don't want to hijack this thread or get into a debate about the the merits of DIY. But, if you are complaining about the cost of a F113 or DD, you should do yourself a favor and at least entertain the possibility of DIY. It certainly is not for everyone, nothing is...

But, when the JL113 first came out and were not reviewed, dealers were selling them for $1999. If I remember correctly dealer cost was/is < $1670. The generally accepted street price is ~$2500. So, if you can find a dealer that you can cozy up to there are deals out there....

Most products at this level have a 100% markup if that helps.


No offence, but I'm not sure your numbers are accurate when you say "products at this level". My understanding is that the markup is considerably less than 100% for a lot of high-end products - I have my sources just like you have yours...

I've never seen the JL F113 advertised for $1999 and I was watching closely from the time they were announced. I was the first guy in the area (Toronto, Canada) to get a pair of them so I know a bit about their pricing structure.

No question there!

After selling an SVS Ultra/2 in the quest of getting more performance and better SQ, I was in the process of deciding between a DD-18 and JL113. That adventure helped me glean quite a bit of info about the dealer networks, markups, driver and amp technologies, cost vs. performance, etc.

I took a gander at the DIY section and it has paid off big time. With a little time and patience it is unreal what can be done, all while having a great time doing it.

I don't want to hijack this thread or get into a debate about the the merits of DIY. But, if you are complaining about the cost of a F113 or DD, you should do yourself a favor and at least entertain the possibility of DIY. It certainly is not for everyone, nothing is...

Hat's off to you Jpmst and the other DIYers. I wish I had the time to put together a DIY rig. Building it would be ask satisfying as listening to the final results. Its the ultimate solution and as cost effective as you can get. Every time I read a post like yours I get a pang of envy. :cool:

No offence, but I'm not sure your numbers are accurate when you say "products at this level". My understanding is that the markup is considerably less than 100% for a lot of high-end products - I have my sources just like you have yours...

I've never seen the JL F113 advertised for $1999 and I was watching closely from the time they were announced. I was the first guy in the area (Toronto, Canada) to get a pair of them so I know a bit about their pricing structure.

None taken.

However, when I say products I was referring specifically to those subs listed which are ~100% marked up (some more, some a little less), ala Velodyne, JL, Paradigm...products that are routinely only available from authorized dealers, otherwise the warranty is invalid.
Of course, not all products from the same company follow the same pricing strategy either. They often have different product lines that are marketed differently.

You will NEVER see prices like those advertised! The dealer would lose their product lines immediately. Most dealers are never allowed to advertise anything significantly below MSRP on their "signature" products. You have to negotiate directly and that often comes from forming a relationship with the dealer through routine purchases/upgrades....

Just wait until the next big thing comes out and the prices will fall. When the DD-18s first came out people were paying $4995 and not thinking twice about it ($2200 cost if I remember correctly). Now most are getting them for less then $3500 new and occasionally even less than $3K thanks in part to the Fathoms which raised the bar again. Hell, even the used DD market shifted down considerably. Check audigon to see used DD-18s (some only months old) routinely going for $2100-2600. After the Fathom reviews started pouring in dealers were getting full retail. After things settled down a little many were able to buy a pair for $5K or less.
It is capitalism at its finest!

Pricing is a bad subject here which kind of slipped my mind. Most don't want it discussed for obvious reasons...no one wants to feel that they paid too much. So, I will shut up and eveyone can believe what they want. I certainly do not want to start a war over pricing. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers here. I just want to see people get the best deal possible.

It is rude to hijack a great review thread with this subject. If anyone wants to discuss the issue further they can PM me.
These subs are all excellent performers I have been fortunate enough to either hear or own.

Hat's off to you Jpmst and the other DIYers. I wish I had the time to put together a DIY rig. Building it would be ask satisfying as listening to the final results. Its the ultimate solution and as cost effective as you can get. Every time I read a post like yours I get a pang of envy. :cool:

It is rewarding and can be very fun for sure. I am new to it and certainly not the expert DIYer for sure. Trust me, it is nothing you couldn't handle. I do agree that time is the toughest commodity to make more of. Never say never though, life has a way of changing. It certainly is not for everyone and I also understand those that don't want to bother with the time and effort. If the weather wasn't so crappy up here in PA I would not even consider it...being couped up for 6 months helps. :)
The DIY thing becomes a hobby in and of itself and creates desire to build bigger and better projects.

Warp, SVS has replied to this at the Spot -- the current Ultra driver is not designed for small sealed cabinet use. It'll take a completely new driver, ballpark 2kW amp (2x what Indigo has built to date), and new EQ. In short it would be a totally new engineering project. Even if SVS succeeded in getting, say, 95% of JLs SQ for, say $2500, IMO folks in this market would still buy the JL.

That's what I suspected.

I think you are right.....I don't think that SVS should even try to compete in this area. It's just not lucrative enough to be worth the engineering effort, whereas JL already had a proven (and well known) driver design that was well suited for the application.

That's what I suspected.

I think you are right.....I don't think that SVS should even try to compete in this area. It's just not lucrative enough to be worth the engineering effort, whereas JL already had a proven (and well known) driver design that was well suited for the application.

Are you talking about the jl w7? if so then it has only proved to be overpriced and under performer in the car audio world.

I doubt the $1670 number for the F113. I received a substantial discount from my dealer on the F112 (don't ask me who) and he told me what the dealer cost was for it. It was higher than than $1670. Not by much, but higher and this is the F112 glossy.

@Iggster,
I havent been into car audio for a few years, but i remember rc and david navonne both gave rave reviews for the JL w7. Yes it was expensive, but it could do great things in small enclosures (granted they had to have specialized baffles and junk like that).
I know you are huge into spl, and for pure spl there are better subs, but for sq these were rated #1 by quite a few in the audio world.. I picked a brahma instead, and while it was an awesome sub, when taken head to head the w7 was clearly the winner.

Are you talking about the jl w7? if so then it has only proved to be overpriced and under performer in the car audio world.

Iggster, it's time to occasionally step away from the car audio world when discussing home subs. While there are certain similarities, there many differences. Home subs are not primarily about SPL drag racing and the working environment is entirely different. It's like comparing car stereo head units and amps with home stereo receivers. Different worlds.

Iggster, it's time to occasionally step away from the car audio world when discussing home subs. While there are certain similarities, there many differences. Home subs are not primarily about SPL drag racing and the working environment is entirely different. It's like comparing car stereo head units and amps with home stereo receivers. Different worlds.

I was quoting a guy who said the sub came from a proven design which of course was the jl w7 which is a car audio sub that is over priced, Many sq guys prefer the w6 sound quality of it over the w7 even the image dynamics id max has better sound quality

Iggster, somewhere in the JL 113 thread (good luck!) one of the JL guys enumerates the differences between the stock woofer and the one used in the 113 -- quite a bit of optimization as I recall. The "over the counter" woofer was just a starting point.

Amp came in and has been replaced, I now get a green light when the sub turns on! Unfortunately I don't believe I'll have time (or for that matter a house without a 6 month old in it!) today or tomorrow to test it out.

Oh ... you can see some pics of the amp/inside of the sub in this thread ...

http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/101/tid/138706/pid/830793/post/last/#LAST

First of all, thank you for doing this comparison. :cool: Second, don't you think your results are a bit skewed due to very different frequency responses? I saw this FR graph over at Spot.

http://www.***************.com/fusionbb/fbbuploads/1190770952-gtg_all_5.jpg

"Mark (Huff) was kind enough to compile and send over the REW FR responses. Note, these were taken at the main listening position, not the traditional "mic in front of the woofer" placement.

Red - Servo15
Green - PB13 Ported
Gold - PB13 Sealed
Blue - Velo
Purple – JL"

There are well over 10-15 dB differences in very important upper bass range! No wonder the Velodyne sounded boomy when it was clearly calibrated way too hot. It wasn't just the 35 Hz boost. Same goes to most other notifications you made regarding other subs. I have nothing against these kind of comparisons but it would be fair and more beneficial if all subs would be calibrated and equalized at least relatively close to each other (+/- 2-3dB). Now the differences you heard were dominated by the FR differences. :(

No kidding Richard. If you read the early posts you will see why we did not compare the DD-18. Its FR was audibly out of whack because of human error. The DD-18 was boomy because it inadvertently remained equalized to my HT settings in PBC's room and therefore not comparable to the other subs . None of the other subs were equalized. The graph clearly shows irregular response caused by my in-room settings. Accordingly no one commented on the Velo. The DD-18 is actually a very linear superb sounding sub.

Part 2 will be held at my acoustically treated HT in early November, and all subs will be side by side and equalized.

That is why they are trying to do this again, at John's house, where they will calibrate all subs prior to the tests. In this thread there is also an explanation for why the Velo was running hot in the 35Hz range.

No kidding Richard. If you read the early posts you will see why we did not compare the DD-18. Its FR was audibly out of whack because of human error. The DD-18 was boomy because it inadvertently remained equalized to my HT settings in PBC's room and therefore not comparable to the other subs . None of the other subs were equalized. The graph clearly shows irregular response caused by my in-room settings. Accordingly no one commented on the Velo. The DD-18 is actually a very linear superb sounding sub.

Part 2 will be held at my acoustically treated HT in early November, and all subs will be side by side and equalized.
I didn't mean only the DD18, also other subs had grossly different FRs. :( I think you should have placed them in the same spot and only listed one at a time. That way their FRs would have been more similar. Now the placement made a huge difference. For example that is the reason why the Paradigm sounded worse than the others.

And I'm not sure if those wrong settings were the root reason. I mean it's calibrated around 8-10 dB hotter than the others. If you drop the FR line by that amount, it's actually pretty close to others, minus the ~35 Hz bump.

Looking forward to your 2nd session. Schedule?

Why would you assume 3 unequalized subs side by side in an untreated room should have the same FR? That graph was the measured response at one spot in the room. Moving over to another part of the room would have yielded slightly different curves. That's why all participants listened to the subs at different seats in the room during the various listening tests over a four hour period. Besides a deep null, what that graph shows is that one of the subs is clearly out of line with the other three and the ported sub has more extension. I wouldn't attempt to draw many more conclusions.

Sunday Nov.3.

Why would you assume 3 unequalized subs side by side in an untreated room should have the same FR? That graph was the measured response at one spot in the room. Moving over to another part of the room would have yielded slightly different curves. That's why all participants listened to the subs at different seats in the room during the various listening tests over a four hour period. Besides a deep null, what that graph shows is that one of the subs is clearly out of line with the other three and the ported sub has more extension. I wouldn't attempt to draw many more conclusions.

Sunday Nov.3.
No no. Of course they don't have the same FR, and that's the problem. But you could have make them more alike by placing them in the exact same spot and listening at only one subwoofer at a time. Now the different placement caused very large differences in FR.

How do you figure that? The subs were sitting side by side all crossed at 80hz, which is where the Servo showed less response otherwise they tracked closely up to the crossover point. Moving around the room did not indicate a lack of mid-high response in any of the three subs tested. The main difference as I heard it was in the superior transient response of the Ultra-13 and the JL113. I wouldn't have thought it would be the case but the Ultra was tighter sounding with less overhang than the Servo v2. Four people heard it. Also, output wise, the Servo2 was not in the same league as the JL or the Ultra-13.

It will be interesting to see if these impressions are the same when all subs are equalized in a larger HT. Hopefully Mark can bring the Servo v2 again for another comparison.

Each sub should be placed in the same spot when comparing. Ideally you would then sit in the same spot to evaluate each. If you equalize, the same correction should be used with each sub to correct for the room, not the subwoofer itself.

The other options are do it outside or have a zillion bass traps to vanquish room interaction.

I hope we can get one of Mark's subs to test out.

...snip...

If you equalize, the same correction should be used with each sub to correct for the room, not the subwoofer itself.

...snip...


I don't believe that will work.

First of all, you'd have to decide which sub to use for your baseline which should then give it an advantage over the others as its the only one equalized correctly.

How do you figure that? The subs were sitting side by side all crossed at 80hz, which is where the Servo showed less response otherwise they tracked closely up to the crossover point. Moving around the room did not indicate a lack of mid-high response in any of the three subs tested. The main difference as I heard it was in the superior transient response of the Ultra-13 and the JL113. I wouldn't have thought it would be the case but the Ultra was tighter sounding with less overhang than the Servo v2. Four people heard it. Also, output wise, the Servo2 was not in the same league as the JL or the Ultra-13.

It will be interesting to see if these impressions are the same when all subs are equalized in a larger HT. Hopefully Mark can bring the Servo v2 again for another comparison.
It's the scale in those graphs that throws you off. 8 dB/div. makes everything look similar (they doesn't even look similar though). And it's not just <80 Hz that contributes. 80 Hz was just the electrical XO, but as you can see, all subs produced much higher than that frequencies. And there the differences are even higher.

You can pretend that it was the superior transient response etc. but in fact it was mainly the FR differences you were hearing. It's a sad fact that people don't realize it when making these subjective comparisons. But don't worry, you're not the only one making that error here. ;)

If you equalize, the same correction should be used with each sub to correct for the room, not the subwoofer itself.

That wouldn't work because all subs have different anechoic frequency responses. The most important thing is to make them all as similar as possible in the listening spot.

It's the scale in those graphs that throws you off. 8 dB/div. makes everything look similar (they doesn't even look similar though). And it's not just <80 Hz that contributes. 80 Hz was just the electrical XO, but as you can see, all subs produced much higher than that frequencies. And there the differences are even higher.

You can pretend that it was the superior transient response etc. but in fact it was mainly the FR differences you were hearing. It's a sad fact that people don't realize it when making these subjective comparisons. But don't worry, you're not the only one making that error here. ;)

Richard you are coming across as rather presumptious for someone who hasn't even read this thread in its entirety and jumped in with erroneous observations. This session was the unequalized one to see how these subs fared in a small room while listening nearfield. Believe me, you can learn alot about subs with that simple technique. People moved around the room to get different acoustical perspectives. No one sat in one spot. Listening for frequency response variations and for transient response is not that hard. I'm sure you too would have heard the sonic differences.

While FR and output are important, there are many other significant properties which influence sound quality if you stop and listen for them. Listening and measuring go hand in hand if you want to determine subwoofer performance. Every competent designer or installer will also tell you as much.

For practical purposes, in the next session these subs will be individually equalized using a SMS set up side by side in a larger acoustically treated room with a switcher to allow for of a blind test.

nice write up Jakeman!

Richard you are coming across as rather presumptious for someone who hasn't even read this thread in its entirety and jumped in with erroneous observations. This session was the unequalized one to see how these subs fared in a small room while listening nearfield. Believe me, you can learn alot about subs with that simple technique. People moved around the room to get different acoustical perspectives. No one sat in one spot. Listening for frequency response variations and for transient response is not that hard. I'm sure you too would have heard the sonic differences.

While FR and output are important, there are many other significant properties which influence sound quality if you stop and listen for them. Listening and measuring go hand in hand if you want to determine subwoofer performance. Every competent designer or installer will also tell you as much.

For practical purposes, in the next session these subs will be individually equalized using a SMS set up side by side in a larger acoustically treated room with a switcher to allow for of a blind test.
John,

I have read the thread. But I didn't saw the frequency responses until I visited the HT Spot. That's when I realized how different they were and why you made such comments on their sound quality.

It's one thing to run a totally unequalized shoot-out, but even then one should try to minimize the placement/room effect. That's why I recommended that you should have placed them in the same spot and listen only one at a time. That way you would have got a much better picture of the subwoofer itself. Now the different placement caused large variances to frequency response from subwoofer to subwoofer.

Richard,

We're doing a follow up in John's much more capable HT in early Nov. Not sure we'll keep moving the subs to the exact same spot, but we'll see.

One other comment, while we calibrated the subs using AVIA so they were within 1 or 2 db of each other, I can't recall (Huff would have to chime in) if when the FR charts were run whether they were actually run at the same db level.

In any event, as John noted, we will strive to get the FR response as flat as possible for each sub during the next test.

Regards.

Richard,

We're doing a follow up in John's much more capable HT in early Nov. Not sure we'll keep moving the subs to the exact same spot, but we'll see.

One other comment, while we calibrated the subs using AVIA so they were within 1 or 2 db of each other, I can't recall (Huff would have to chime in) if when the FR charts were run whether they were actually run at the same db level.

In any event, as John noted, we will strive to get the FR response as flat as possible for each sub during the next test.

Regards.
Oh dear. More thorough explanation seems to be in place.

AVIA uses a band limited pink noise as a subwoofer calibration signal. Its frequency range goes from ~40 Hz to 80 Hz. So when using it for calibration, it only means that the subwoofers have approximately same amount of sound power in that range - nothing else (plus you used pretty inaccurate Radio Shack SPL meter, no?). It doesn't tell anything about the frequency response or what happens below or above that narrow range. Meaning HIGHLY inaccurate.

The frequency responses shown above show what was really going on. And unfortunately they weren't even close to each other, which means the differences in frequency responses dominated the sound differences. No need to start talking about "superior transient responses" etc. when each frequency response is totally different.

Richard, give it a rest.:rolleyes: Given the time constraints the subs were placed next to one another for easy switching in Steve's small room. You are mixing up listening impressions from FR with time domain related ones. Irregularities in FR will manifest themselves as a lack of detail and articulation, TR deficiencies will show up as time related artifacts like loose overhung notes. While the experiment has its limitations it mimics very well the acoustical behaviour of many subs where people don't use equalization or what you often hear in a dealer showroom.

Next time will be the equalized tests. Also my room has large floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner with the entire front wall and half two sidewalls covered in acoustical panels. Basically people describe it as studio like and its very revealing of subs that aren't playing tight articulate bass.

I'm not mixing up anything, but fine, I'll give it a rest. Looking forward to your next session. Please EQ them as identical as possible. ;) And use Room EQ Wizard to measure them, not SMS-1.

What's wrong with using the SMS-1 to measure?

What's wrong with using the SMS-1 to measure?
It's not acccurate. It smoothes out the response way too much. It's been discussed in lenght in other threads.

Higher resolution with the REW. SMS is only 1/3rd octave but for our purposes it should be fine for a quick setup, and again its in widespread use. We only have 4 hours and with the 5 separate SMS profiles will make it easy to quickly switch equalization settings for each sub. I'm sure Mark will bring along his notebook with REW for a second check to make sure we are not favouring any sub.

Higher resolution with the REW. SMS is only 1/3rd octave but for our purposes it should be fine for a quick setup, and again its in widespread use. We only have 4 hours and with the 5 separate SMS profiles will make it easy to quickly switch equalization settings for each sub. I'm sure Mark will bring along his notebook with REW for a second check to make sure we are not favouring any sub.

John, keep in mind that the SMS not only uses 1/3 octave, but also smooths the response out too much (as Richard mentioned). It also has very high distortion numbers and horrid rolloff (which is supposed to be fixed with a new firmware). See this thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html

Velo was supposed to come out with a firmware update by the end of Sept to eliminate the subsonic filter altogether and fix the roll off, but nothing yet. Wonder if they are also looking at the distortion issue before releasing new firmware (could that also be "fixed" with a software update??).

BTW ssapiro, incredible looking (and I'm sure sounding) system bud!!

ssabripo, the frequency smoothing on the display is a benefit to the consumer -- if you've ever watched a high resolution RTA you know what I mean. I continue to hope that receiver manufacturers will offer SMS-1 functionality, and I would recommend a similar level of smoothing -- if you need higher resolution, less convenient to use pro equipment is available.

The low input sensitivity is a legitimate gripe, as there are some pieces of comsumer electronics (the Emotiva MPS-1 comes to mind) that require closer to 1.5 volts to drive to full output -- I certainly look for the ability to generate more than 1 volt, preferably 2 volts, at my low level outputs. Given that, the SMS-1's input level is definately lower than what would be a good match with modern consumer gear typically used to drive an SMS-1. If Velodyne does not want to change the input sensitivity, they need to put an input level warning LED on the front panel that would turn on at 0.5 volts.

EDIT: Since the DD series subs would also need the same over-limit-input indicator, and no one could see an LED on the back-side-of-the-sub plate amp, a better idea would be to place an over-limit-input indicator on the main graphical screen of the SMS-1. Cheaper to produce, too.

The rolloffs Ilkka describes, if indeed present when both subsonic and low pass filters are disabled on the SMS-1, are still not enough of a problem to significantly detract from the overall performance of the SMS-1 for most consumers. The high end rolloff is a non-issue for anyone already running the standard 24dB@octave sub x-o at 80Hz or lower, and the low end rolloff, 2dB down at 20Hz and 5 dB down at 15Hz (from Ilkka's graph) is enough to affect absolute values of performance figures in tests -- but the rolloff from 10Hz down is often recommended by low tuned DIY sub builders :)

If I were going to design and build my own sub / pro amp setup, I'd invest in the computer software / DCX2496 level of equipment absolutely. But the SMS-1 does fine in the home environment it was designed for, as many people can testify, and provides a much better sounding solution than the plate amp controls on a sub.

Briefly addressing the use of external EQ in jakeman's / pbc's / et al's upcoming test, the 'fair' way of determining just one EQ curve to correct for the room and then using it for all the subs isn't the way to do a subjective in room test.
First, if it's objective numbers you want, it's outside to the parking lot you go -- you just can't do it in a residential room. So this is a LISTENING test with COMPARATIVE measurements -- the most useful kind to consumers IMO.
But anyone with external EQ is going to adjust their sub AS BEST THEY CAN.
And what of the DD18 that has the SMS-1 built in? That's part of the product, so it's use OPTIMALLY is assumed -- and anyone buying an SMS-1 is also surely intending to use OPTIMAL settings.

This is a very old conundrum. On the one hand you want to test an audio product 'naked' -- just what is in the box -- to give a fair report of what the consumer should expect. On the other hand, external EQ with subs is often a functional necessity that is growing in popularity, and the typical SMS-1 or xxx2496 user (and obviously any Audyssey or other auto EQ user) is going to optimize the sub and the room together.

What you end up doing is testing both ways -- un-EQ'd and EQ'd -- and reporting what you find. And lest I forget, Thank You to jakeman, pbc, and everyone involved for going to all this work for our benefit!

Thank You to jakeman, pbc, and everyone involved for going to all this work for our benefit!

It was tough work, but someone had to do it. :D

As stated, the main reason we didn't EQ the subs was due to time constraints. Only had a few hours as I sort of completely forgot it was my father's b-day and had to get to my parent's house by 6! So we decided to go un-EQ'd for this "test" and get back together in October/November (looking like Nov 4 is the date) to do an "EQ'd" test in John's dedicated theater which will be even more fun. Again, it won't be perfect, but should be fun none the less and give everyone enough of a flavour of how the different subs sound.

Plus, has anyone tried to constantly move back and forth 4 subs, two of which are north of 130lbs, just to get them into the same position? We were sweating after just taking the subs to and from the car! :eek: Personally I feel by the time you move the sub over to the same spot too much time will have passed between the listenings and it will make it that much more difficult to compare.

We may try a blind test at John's, but not sure we'll constantly move the subs back and forth to the exact same spot.

Whoever said that the SMS-1 is not accurate should get their facts straight before making blanket statements. A test was conducted at AVtalk that confirms that both the BFD and the SMS-1 are identical in terms of accuracy.

If a link is required then I'll be happy to provide it.

The graph measurements are accurate. The distortion issue is a bit of a problem but that is only true if you use a high sub level in the AVR. The roll off is a problem for some people but that is about the only real downside at present. And it's going to be fixed with a firmware update.

The distortion issue is a bit of a problem ... The roll off is a problem ... Exactly.

Also consider how the SMS-1 uses 1/3 octave smoothing. It is by design incapable of the display accuracy available from other parametric solutions.

The upside it has is it's user friendliness. Much more plug-n-play. There are lots of tradeoffs in this hobby, and as long as you are comfortable with the weaknesses of a given component in relation to it's benefits in your situation, then it's all good. :)

p.s., the test conducted at AVtalk confirms that the BFD and SMS-1 are NOT identical in terms of accuracy. Here's the link:

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=243382&rid=5915&SQ=1190058560#msg_243382


And here's the link to Zippy's initial measurements that initially highlighted and quantified these issues:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html


Tim

Whoever said that the SMS-1 is not accurate should get their facts straight before making blanket statements. A test was conducted at AVtalk that confirms that both the BFD and the SMS-1 are identical in terms of accuracy.

If a link is required then I'll be happy to provide it.

The graph measurements are accurate. The distortion issue is a bit of a problem but that is only true if you use a high sub level in the AVR. The roll off is a problem for some people but that is about the only real downside at present. And it's going to be fixed with a firmware update.

Oops! AV Talk has never tested a BFD. We have conducted tests on the SMS-1 to confirm a number of things:

1) Bass rolloff with different subsonic filter settings. Ilkka also confirmed this issue and that the BFD had much better bass extension. A software update to the SMS-1 is in production which may well fix the problem. We will have to wait and see.

2) Graph plotting accuracy. It had been claimed that the SMS-1 graphs were a few Hz out, especially at the bottom end. We plotted some comparative graphs to show that any error was rather smaller than claimed and could be explained to a large extent by the bass rolloff. We did NOT attempt to determine if the plotting of amplitude was correct other than a cursory visual comparison.

3) Filter accuracy. We checked the accuracy with which the filters are applied and found them to be accurate in both frequency, Q and amplitude.

4) Distortion. As requested by Ilkka, we verified his findings by testing a different unit to check it was not just a fault in his unit. We found much the same results. We also confirmed the issue appears to affect the DD subs as well. Velodyne are looking into the issue and we await their findings with interest. From examining the actual signal waveform emerging from the SMS-1, it does not appear to be a simple clipping issue but may be a fault somewhere in the DSP code. In any case, the issue can be avoided in most cases by setting appropriate signal levels out of your receiver/processor. :)

Sorry, I made a mistake. :) I mean't AVforums.

Sorry about that.

I think I remember Bruce Hall saying that the SMS-1 had an extremely high resolution (much higher than 1/3 octave) perhaps even higher than the BFD. Perhaps someone can expound on that.

Here is the thread detailing the review between the BFD and SMS-1 : http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4283789&postcount=2

I think I remember Bruce Hall saying that the SMS-1 had an extremely high resolution (much higher than 1/3 octave) perhaps even higher than the BFD. Perhaps someone can expound on that.

Here is the thread detailing the review between the BFD and SMS-1 : http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4283789&postcount=2
By accuracy I meant the measuring display resolution. The SMS-1 may use higher internal resolution but it doesn't matter when the graph display is using 1/3 oct. or actually even higher smoothing. I have compared it to Room EQ Wizard and TrueRTA, and IMO it's not sufficient. It can hide certain FR anomalies that other programs present and which are also audible to human hearing. Especially if one wants to compare two or more subwoofers to each other and EQ them as identical as possible, the SMS-1 is no good. Otherwise it's a great product (minus the distortion and roll-off issues).

According to the test I linked to, the BDF and SMS-1 were very similiar in their graph accuracy. According to the tester, the differences were very minor in that whatever dips were present on the BFD that were subdued on the SMS-1 were so minute that they would have made absolutely no difference at all.

. . . As stated, the main reason we didn't EQ the subs was due to time constraints. . . . So we decided to go un-EQ'd for this "test" and get back together in October/November (looking like Nov 4 is the date) to do an "EQ'd" test in John's dedicated theater which will be even more fun. . . .

Due to poor wording on my part you may have thought I was criticizing your already conducted test :o -- not at all, you folks did a great job! -- I was thinking about your upcoming test (and I've added the word 'upcoming' to my previous post to clarify).

According to the test I linked to, the BDF and SMS-1 were very similiar in their graph accuracy. According to the tester, the differences were very minor in that whatever dips were present on the BFD that were subdued on the SMS-1 were so minute that they would have made absolutely no difference at all.
I didn't say anything about the BFD vs. SMS-1. I said that the on-screen display of the SMS-1 isn't as accurate as the Room EQ Wizard. REW is a free measuring program made by John Mulcahy.

Due to poor wording on my part you may have thought I was criticizing your already conducted test -- not at all, you folks did a great job! -- I was thinking about your upcoming test (and I've added the word 'upcoming' to my previous post to clarify).

Nope, didn't think you were criticizing at all, thought your post was spot on! Just thought I'd clarify for everyone why we did what we did.

Cheers,

PBC

As one who has used many differant methods, systems, and software for bass EQING, I can say the issues with the SMS-1 are minor at best when taken in context of how most people I've seen actually get it set "right" more often with the SMS-1 than they do with other software, maybe it's a function of time and patience , but anecdotally this seems to be the case and measured against other systems, I have not found any gross errors fwiw.

you should have placed them in the same spot and listen only one at a time. That way you would have got a much better picture of the subwoofer itself. Now the different placement caused large variances to frequency response from subwoofer to subwoofer.
While I would agree, this is not convinient for "on-the-fly" comparisons.

I would also note though that there have been many times that the best spot I've measured for locating one sub in a particular room was not the best spot for another differant sub in that same room, and if seperately measured, and optimized through placement and equalization, differant locations, in theory, could be selected and a decent comparison could then still be done "on-the-fly". Also, being subjective in determining placement might bring up whether one was locating to optimize for output or SQ. Of course, this could be done with one SMS-1 AND THREE SUBS IN THE ROOM AT THE SAME TIME USING THE DIFFERANT PRESETS if one were very careful.

I didn't say anything about the BFD vs. SMS-1. I said that the on-screen display of the SMS-1 isn't as accurate as the Room EQ Wizard. REW is a free measuring program made by John Mulcahy.

The SMS-1, REW, TrueRTA, and any other audio measurement tool is only as accurate it's calibration to a known standard. I'd certainly expect anyone even attempting ballpark 'absolute' measurements to have, at a minimum, a Class 2 mic or meter with NIST calibration on hand, and I'd prefer something with a specific calibration curve down to at least 15Hz -- even better would be several lab calibration curves run at different dB levels. Not a free service :)

For the kind of comparative testing pbc, jakeman, and friends are conducting the raw readings from the SMS-1 should be sufficient -- if they have time later to determine a calibration curve for their their SMS-1 they can publish corrected values. But it won't change the relative or subjective outcomes of their test :)

The SMS-1, REW, TrueRTA, and any other audio measurement tool is only as accurate it's calibration to a known standard. I'd certainly expect anyone even attempting ballpark 'absolute' measurements to have, at a minimum, a Class 2 mic or meter with NIST calibration on hand, and I'd prefer something with a specific calibration curve down to at least 15Hz -- even better would be several lab calibration curves run at different dB levels. Not a free service :)

For the kind of comparative testing pbc, jakeman, and friends are conducting the raw readings from the SMS-1 should be sufficient -- if they have time later to determine a calibration curve for their their SMS-1 they can publish corrected values. But it won't change the relative or subjective outcomes of their test :)
I didn't mean absolute SPL accuracy, I meant frequency accuracy i.e. frequency resolution and the amount of smoothing used.

Absolute SPL accuracy doesn't mean anything when doing these informal comparisons (as long it doesn't change in between measurements).

John, keep in mind that the SMS not only uses 1/3 octave, but also smooths the response out too much (as Richard mentioned). It also has very high distortion numbers and horrid rolloff (which is supposed to be fixed with a new firmware). See this thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html

Yes I read that thread and the related AVtalk thread a while ago. Great work that Illka and CJ are doing. Several people have already responded but here is my take on the SMS. Firstly, like all these consumer level devices they are not perfect since they have to be made user friendly but they are powerful tools if used properly with an understanding of their strengths and weak points. Let's talk about the flaws which should be looked at in context.

The rolloff. Yes its there but whether or not its horrid very much depends on how much room gain you have to deal with or control. While I can see how people with large open areas can complain about being "robbed" of low bass , I have the opposite problem in my HT. My 3500cf sealed, acoustically treated room is bounded by ground on 3 sides. Room gain is quite high so I find myself using deep cuts or in the case of my Velo FSR-18 raising the subsonic filter to 35hz/6db for it to blend with the other subs. All subs are on side or mid-wall though I'm experimenting with placing one sub the JL113 in a left front corner. In my case and I suspect in other moderately sized rooms, the rolloff is actually a benefit for controlling room gain.

The distortion. Is it relevant? That depends how you have set the preamp subwoofer out. I have a long running distrust of devices which convert analog signals to digital via a ADC chip for processing then back to a DAC for output. Those steps are bound to introduce noise, phase, and other artifacts in any device. The signal to noise ratio of the BFD is not great to begin with so mine gathers dust now in favour of the display and ease of use of the SMS. What I have done for as long as I've used subs is keep the preamp output in the -8 to -5 range to minimize noise if using an equalizer or any DSP downstream . It means more work with sub controls when calibrating but I'd much rather run back and forth if I can keep extraneous noise to a minimum. That's probably why I've never detected the huge THD spike. So its important to keep this new found distortion in perspective. It's not present if the SMS is used as mentioned above. Still it would be good to see Velodyne fix the problem but I suspect it's hardware not software related.

The display. CJ says its off only 1-1.5hz but in my unit I'd say its closer to 3hz for frequencies lower than 25hz. I confirmed that by mapping my room with individual sine waves a couple of years ago to find the a peak near 22hz which was displayed at 25 hz on the display. I pointed that out as a possible problem with the mapping algorithm when I was beta testing the current firmware. I think its splitting hairs and not that relevant when setting the filters using the display as a guide but its good to know about the flaws.

Resolution. Its only 1/3 octave and it would be nice if it were 1/6 octave but for purposes of flattening FR in room it makes little difference. Once you get experience with moving filters, making cuts and setting Q in real time while listening and watching the display it becomes academic. Where it would make a huge difference if you relied on the auto-equalization function which sucks IMO, as it does in every equalization device including the Audessey.

Bottom line its still a great easy to use bass equalizer which is just fine for any HT as long as its used carefully with knowledge of its weak areas. :cool:

I would also note though that there have been many times that the best spot I've measured for locating one sub in a particular room was not the best spot for another differant sub in that same room, and if seperately measured, and optimized through placement and equalization, differant locations, in theory, could be selected and a decent comparison could then still be done "on-the-fly". Also, being subjective in determining placement might bring up whether one was locating to optimize for output or SQ. .

I was thinking the same thing but was too lazy to type it.
We'll play around a bit at John's house but optimally positioning one sub is not a job that can be done in a few hours never mind placing 4 optimally. I guess the assumption is that if we are placing all subs in the room pseudo-scientifically then no one sub will have been favoured and the different strengths and weaknesses of each sub should be measurable/audible. May not necessarily be true but we'll have fun trying to find out!

Let's not forget the impact of the scotch mentioned several pages ago. That could hinder our ability to move the subs back and forth. :D

... I can't recall (Huff would have to chime in) if when the FR charts were run whether they were actually run at the same db level ...


They were.

Hopefully Mark can bring the Servo v2 again for another comparison

Servo15v2 was floor model loaned from dealer for the day. I'll try to get it again, but can't promise.

...

There's a fair bit of discussion here regarding our unscientific approach to this session. Expected, I guess, since this is a "Science Forum". The way we set up the subs was clearly explained before any of us gave our comments so that those comments could be viewed in the proper context. We tried to do the best/most with the time we had.

John (jakeman) has graciously offered to host another session where we intend to not only calibrate but equalise as best as possible all subs before listening. We will have a few SMSs/BFDs, REW and a Galaxy CM-140 mic so I'm hoping we can find a location for each sub, equalise it in place and that way do some blind comparisons. You can't blind test if you're moving subs into the "test" location.

I learned a lot in this first session and will be much better prepared and more experienced with REW for the next one so we'll have more/better response graphs to go with our listening comments. Just have to remember, graphs before wine, graphs before wine... :)

Scotch? Wine? Whatever happened to Moosehead? :D

Moosehead? That's a Canadian beer, we don't actually drink Canadian beers or wines up here, simply export them down. J/K :p

:)