So there I was today. Exhanging my Alexander DVD for either the HD DVD or Blu-ray. And I couldn't decide. I had both in my hand and I just stood there. Looking at the back, for some clue as to which I should pick. Nothing. Same specs AV specs (which I knew gonig in). Then I thought there might be exclusives on the HD DVD version. Didn't seem like it. In the end *and I swear, you'll laugh*, I went with the Blu-ray version because the artwork looked better with the Blue case. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I hope Warner picks a side.

That was stupid!! Don't get a scratch on it or it will never work again, Blu-Ray's pits are too close to the surface!!!1111

Just kidding. If I had both, I'd determine based on the quality of the player I own and read a few reviews online of the disc's PQ/AQ, etc and see if they noticed a difference. If it was a combo disc, I'd buy the HD-DVD.

If you're a dual format owner and both versions are identical (PQ, AQ, HD Extras, Price, SD extras, etc) why not choose based on the art work? The blue-trim on the Blu-Ray cases look better with the Alexander art work. The red-trim HD DVD cases look better with the Troy DC art work. Casino Royale would look crappy with the red trim HD DVD cases. Last Samurai looks much better with the red trim HD DVD cases than blue-trim Blu-Ray cases.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3238/original.jpeghttp://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3240/original.jpeg
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3086/original.gifhttp://bluray.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3258/original.gif

So there I was today. Exhanging my Alexander DVD for either the HD DVD or Blu-ray. And I couldn't decide. I had both in my hand and I just stood there. Looking at the back, for some clue as to which I should pick. Nothing. Same specs AV specs (which I knew gonig in). Then I thought there might be exclusives on the HD DVD version. Didn't seem like it. In the end *and I swear, you'll laugh*, I went with the Blu-ray version because the artwork looked better with the Blue case. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I hope Warner picks a side.Usually when the specs are close or the same, I make my decision based on the number of players I own. Currently HD DVD win in my home (3 players vs 1 BD player). That will change soon and Ill be in the same boat as you....which cover art goes best with the case color.

LOL there is nothing to decide since wb is using the exact same videotransfer, of course that videotransfer for low hd dvd technical spezifications.
(yes i call it low cause 30GB < 50GB and 30mbps < 48mbps)
if wb would release seperate transfer, its easy, you would choose blu-ray!
one 40GB movie + 44mbps are always better than 20gb movie + 16mbps

LOL there is nothing to decide since wb is using the exact same videotransfer, of course that videotransfer for low hd dvd technical spezifications.
(yes i call it low cause 30GB < 50GB and 30mbps < 48mbps)
if wb would release seperate transfer, its easy, you would choose blu-ray!
one 40GB movie + 44mbps are always better than 20gb movie + 16mbps

Except at 44 mbps it would take 70.6 GB to store Alexander, so it would still be on two discs (BD50 + BD 25)

Except at 44 mbps it would take 70.6 GB to store Alexander, so it would still be on two discs (BD50 + BD 25)And now much and what size disk for an HD DVD?

I choose first based on price; whatever one is cheaper (usually BR), I'll go with that one.

If they're even on price, I'll usually go with the HD DVD version because I'd rather the HD-A2 get the wear and tear than the PS3, and choosing the BR version usually means I'm stuck with a 640kbps DD track, as I don't have an HDMI receiver.

Greetings

I would have gone for the scratch coating on the blue ... all else being even.

Regards

If you're a dual format owner and both versions are identical (PQ, AQ, HD Extras, Price, SD extras, etc) why not choose based on the art work? The blue-trim on the Blu-Ray cases look better with the Alexander art work. The red-trim HD DVD cases look better with the Troy DC art work. Casino Royale would look crappy with the red trim HD DVD cases. Last Samurai looks much better with the red trim HD DVD cases than blue-trim Blu-Ray cases.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3238/original.jpeghttp://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3240/original.jpeg
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3086/original.gifhttp://bluray.highdefdigest.com/images/post/3/3258/original.gif

Is that set up for 3D glasses :D

Well, since the encodes are the same; other than the mentioned color difference/cover art the HD DVD's sometimes have IME; if that's important; and BD's may have PCM audio or other options in future releases. The biggest differences for me given the same encodes are no combos on blu and scratch-resistant coating. If the HD DVD isn't a combo, is the same price, has no IME, and the audio options are equivalent then there really is no other factor besides cover art, scratch-resistance, and preferance based on player performance.

That could be tough. I think I would have just grabed the first I saw. Well maybe as it would be tough..

Greetings

I would have gone for the scratch coating on the blue ... all else being even.

Regards

Wow. Scratch coating is only there because the data layer is closer to the surface for Blu-Ray. It's a necessity--not a bonus.:rolleyes:

the most important factor for me is the specifications of each release. Everything being equal, I choose HD DVD.

After reading this it has become painfully apparent to me that much of my HD artwork is not color coordinated with the cases. I think I may have to do a little case swapping tonight to fix things.:cool:

Yes we want Red artwork for HD and Blue artwork for BD

Is it just me or do you think Warners delay of BD-Batman is that they cant find good artwork for the blue case?

So there I was today. Exhanging my Alexander DVD for either the HD DVD or Blu-ray. And I couldn't decide. I had both in my hand and I just stood there. Looking at the back, for some clue as to which I should pick. Nothing. Same specs AV specs (which I knew gonig in). Then I thought there might be exclusives on the HD DVD version. Didn't seem like it. In the end *and I swear, you'll laugh*, I went with the Blu-ray version because the artwork looked better with the Blue case. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I hope Warner picks a side.

Well, the Blu-Ray disc is more durable and scratch resistant so its a no brainer for me if they are identical.

Wow. Scratch coating is only there because the data layer is closer to the surface for Blu-Ray. It's a necessity--not a bonus.:rolleyes:

If you rent both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray you would know that it does make a huge difference. I have never gotten a Blu-Ray disc with a scratch on it and I've never had a rental have playback issues. HD-DVD rentals are always hit and miss...

Is it just me or do you think Warners delay of BD-Batman is that they cant find good artwork for the blue case?

:D

If you rent both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray you would know that it does make a huge difference. I have never gotten a Blu-Ray disc with a scratch on it and I've never had a rental have playback issues. HD-DVD rentals are always hit and miss...

Totally agree. Currently at around 30 blu-ray rentals from netflix and not a single problem with a ps3. I really hope hd-dvd can improve skipping/freezing/playback issues perhaps with their own hardcoat or better error correction in the players....because in the end there will only be one format.

Honestly either

1. No one is renting blu-ray.
2. Other renters are very careful.
3. Or blu-ray's hard coat is really that impressive! :)

Well, the Blu-Ray disc is more durable and scratch resistant so its a no brainer for me if they are identical.


Totally agree.

If you own the discs and are careful I think that disc
durability a non-issue. However, when it comes to
rentals I love the way that Netflix lets you prioritize
BD over HD DVD for dual format HD titles. I really think
the coating is more of a rental than a purchase issue.
But, I can certainly understand where Blockbuster is coming
from.

Wow. Scratch coating is only there because the data layer is closer to the surface for Blu-Ray. It's a necessity--not a bonus.:rolleyes:

So? It's still nice to have.

But the issue isnt renting, but buying. And how many DVDs that you own have you ever scrathed that they are unwatchable?

Cracks is actually a bigger issue for me.

But the issue isnt renting, but buying. And how many DVDs that you own have you ever scrathed that they are unwatchable?

Cracks is actually a bigger issue for me.


HD DVDs are more sensitive to playback issues than DVDs when it comes to scratches.

Yes but my point is for disc you own yourself it isnt really an issue, Most of us treat or disc with care, I do that to my BDs aswell.

Sure for rentals I see an advantage of hard coating.

I don't know if it was due to scratches or the "combo bug" but I figured out early on that it was best to avoid HD DVD on Netflix. It is hard to figure out which was causing the problems. I should probably try a few more HD DVD rentals to see if the problem has been fixed with the latest Toshiba firmware updates.

I don't know if it was due to scratches or the "combo bug" but I figured out early on that it was best to avoid HD DVD on Netflix. It is hard to figure out which was causing the problems. I should probably try a few more HD DVD rentals to see if the problem has been fixed with the latest Toshiba firmware updates.

It's weird how varied peoples experiences with netflix are. I have rented lots of Netflix HD DVD's and never ever had a single issue, not even a slight skipping or stuttering. Just perfect playback. I honestly wonder if it depends on demographic of the area.

Yes but my point is for disc you own yourself it isnt really an issue, Most of us treat or disc with care, I do that to my BDs aswell.

Sure for rentals I see an advantage of hard coating.

If you have kids who like to watch and handle the movies as well, wouldn't you feel safer letting them handle blu-ray's vs hd-dvd's? Usually she's very careful but my wife dropped the HD-DVD of Dune by accident flat on its face as she was putting it in the HD-DVD player. Lo and behold it froze 3/4 of the way thru watching it on my HD-A2 and that was a brand new disc. All because of one scratch. I had watched it the day before so I knew it had already worked. Yes, I am a big Frank Herbert fan. Luckily it was within the 30 days at Best Buy so I was able to exchange it. Overall accidents happen with discs, and it is a safer bet if the accident occurs with a blu-ray disc that it won't get scratched. plain and simple.

Here is a great you-tube video to show you how durable Blu-Ray is. Try and do what this guy does to his free copy of Ricky Bobby that came with his Ps3 to any HD-DVD...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ

Yes but my point is for disc you own yourself it isnt really an issue, Most of us treat or disc with care, I do that to my BDs aswell.

Sure for rentals I see an advantage of hard coating.
I take care of my discs, but casual hairline scratches seem to be inevitable at times if you let guests handle your discs, have children that are allowed to handle them, or if you rent/buy used movies.

Blu-ray's hard coating is a good, positive step towards the future of home media. It just makes sense.

Unless there come out something else because of the hardcoating? Like cracks? Also how does the lenght of time put issues on the disc? Like Bullet proof vests, they have best of date.

As for children, i dont have any (what I know) But I wouldnt put my trust in the hardcoating of anything, if there is a way a child can break something they surely will do it. ;)

Im not saying its a bad thing with the scratch resistance surface of BD, but i havnt got any issues with my disc that doesnt have it.

Since a month I did a 180 deg turn and now I am picking HD DVD instead of BR when I have to chose between both and they have identical spec. This turn around is mainly due to being pissed by the profile situation on BR.

Wow. Scratch coating is only there because the data layer is closer to the surface for Blu-Ray. It's a necessity--not a bonus.:rolleyes:

It's a necessity that's also a huge bonus IMO. I hate how easily HD DVDs scratch. I also hate how almost every HD DVD comes straight from the factory dirty or with lots of dust in the case. Perhaps the new lines needed for BD have another benefit of making new disks really come out new.

Given the choice, I always opt for the HD DVD, since my A1 is more reliable than my 1200.
J

LOL there is nothing to decide since wb is using the exact same videotransfer, of course that videotransfer for low hd dvd technical spezifications.
(yes i call it low cause 30GB < 50GB and 30mbps < 48mbps)
if wb would release seperate transfer, its easy, you would choose blu-ray!
one 40GB movie + 44mbps are always better than 20gb movie + 16mbpsHA!!! I'm smart enough to know that 44mbps encode does mean it's superior to a 16 mbps encode. The skills of the encoder has more impact on the final product than the bandwidth.

HA!!! I'm smart enough to know that 44mbps encode does mean it's superior to a 16 mbps encode. The skills of the encoder has more impact on the final product than the bandwidth.

But even skilled encoders such as Warner's CJPlay have stated HD DVD's limited bandwidth is a problem. In his words, "the biggest problem facing either format".

A skilled encoder will always find ways to make 16Mbps look good, but that same encoder will also find ways to make 44Mbps look better on most scenes.

Wow - a thread on picking titles based on the color of the box? :eek:

I pick HD DVD because it is the format that has given customers a better product and a better experience.

The players are ready, the manufacturing is ready, etc.

Yes, I'l pick HD DVD if the specs are the same, but I'll still pick HD DVD if the specs are different. BD is doing far worse than expected and it's just not a good investment, especially when they can't even get the players ready...

stop with the FUD already
BD is doing as well or better than HD DVD and has no problems producing players or software that work great

stop with the FUD already
BD is doing as well or better than HD DVD and has no problems producing players or software that work great

I think that both have their share of issues. Tried watching Underworld last night on my Samsung BD-P1200. After loading the menu, I would hit play and it would just keep looping back to the menu. Ejecting and reloading the disc didn't help. I had to remove the disc, power down the player then retry before I could get it to go past the menu.

But even skilled encoders such as Warner's CJPlay have stated HD DVD's limited bandwidth is a problem. In his words, "the biggest problem facing either format".

A skilled encoder will always find ways to make 16Mbps look good, but that same encoder will also find ways to make 44Mbps look better on most scenes.Ya, Ok :rolleyes:

stop with the FUD already
BD is doing as well or better than HD DVD and has no problems producing players or software that work great

I don't know about that. My Samsung 1200, has more problems playing discs than my A1.
J

If releases are identical, I pick HD-DVD because of hardware at my house. I have two stand-alone HD-DVD players, and only one Blu-Ray player, and my BR player is a PS3, so it's loud and hot when it's playing.

Keep in mind the above is a nit-pick, but hey, that's what I do.

Greetings

I would have gone for the scratch coating on the blue ... all else being even.

Regards
Bad choice in my opinion. A scratch resistant coating sounds nice, but in reality it is a necessity otherwise Blu-ray would be useless since the data virtually sits on top of the disc. If you know that you'll never ever scratch either an HD DVD or Blu-ray disc, then that is your choice. However, if this BD coating gets scratched you're screwed because Blu-ray discs cannot be repaired if necessary like HD DVD discs. I like the peace of mind of HD DVD, which is one of the many reasons I chose the format over Blu-ray.

The thing I have never understood is why they just don't put the hard coating on HD DVD. That would increase the comfort level for a lot of people.

. However, if this BD coating gets scratched you're screwed because Blu-ray discs cannot be repaired if necessary like HD DVD discs.

I know you know this, but I'll mention it for the people that don't. The force required to cause an irrecoverable scratch on a Blu-ray would be so great that an HD DVD submitted to the same level of scratch force would not be reparable. That is a fact. The hard coating laughs at the force that generates the repairable piddly scuffs and scratches on DVD/HD DVD.

Wow. Scratch coating is only there because the data layer is closer to the surface for Blu-Ray. It's a necessity--not a bonus.:rolleyes:

And none of what you said changes that it is in fact more resistant to scratches than HD DVD.

The thing I have never understood is why they just don't put the hard coating on HD DVD. That would increase the comfort level for a lot of people.

I think it would be hard to do since HD DVD's claim to fame is that it's cheaper to manufacture on existing DVD lines. That works well for them because they don't pass the savings on to the customers. Profit!

The thing I have never understood is why they just don't put the hard coating on HD DVD. That would increase the comfort level for a lot of people.


Because that will lower the yield and increase manufacturing cost.

Remember one of HD DVDs big advantage is the bigger number of replication line. If you gonna add hardcoating it will make the replication lines to upgrade and upgrades cost money.

I don't know about that. My Samsung 1200, has more problems playing discs than my A1.
J

+1

Plus I have to clean all of my blu-ray disc before they'll play correctly. I don't see anything wrong with them, but often if I load a disc w/o wiping it first, it has trouble recognizing it. I don't have this problem with HD DVD.

I don't know about that. My Samsung 1200, has more problems playing discs than my A1.
J
What do some you do with your players, put them on top of the sub-woofer ?:)

I've had the BD-S300, BD-P1200 and HD-A20 and all 3 have played/loaded discs flawlessly. Even combo's on the HD-A20.

The thing I have never understood is why they just don't put the hard coating on HD DVD. That would increase the comfort level for a lot of people.
That would mean the manufacturer would have to add cost to the product, thus taking money away from companies.

I still don't understand that if it costs LESS to make HD DVD discs, why not pass the savings on to the consumer and low ball Blu-ray disc prices. :confused:

those with 1080p displays and using the A2/A3 can probably pick blu-ray to save an extra processing the tv has to do.

those with 1080p displays and using the A2/A3 can probably pick blu-ray to save an extra processing the tv has to do.
Are you saying that HD DVD players decode 1080i off the disc than convert to 1080p for those who have an HDTV capable of that resolution whereas a Blu-ray player decodes 1080p right off the disc and 1080p right to the HDTV ?

stop with the FUD already
BD is doing as well or better than HD DVD and has no problems producing players or software that work great

My PS3 has had more problems with playback than my HD DVD players....and my Pioneer had more problems than the PS3.

So: Pioneer > PS3 >> XA Players.

But even skilled encoders such as Warner's CJPlay have stated HD DVD's limited bandwidth is a problem. In his words, "the biggest problem facing either format".

A skilled encoder will always find ways to make 16Mbps look good, but that same encoder will also find ways to make 44Mbps look better on most scenes.

Good post tsb :)

D-Nice, which format shines on the Elite pro-150FD ?

Wouldn't that be the deciding factor for you?:)

If you rent both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray you would know that it does make a huge difference. I have never gotten a Blu-Ray disc with a scratch on it and I've never had a rental have playback issues. HD-DVD rentals are always hit and miss...
I rented "Crank" the other night. I had repeated problems in one spot near the end of the movie. Eventually, I just skipped to the next chapter.

On the other side, Ive never had any problems with HD DVDs Ive rented. And Ive rented quite a bit.

Wow - a thread on picking titles based on the color of the box? :eek:

I pick HD DVD because it is the format that has given customers a better product and a better experience.

The players are ready, the manufacturing is ready, etc.

Yes, I'll pick HD DVD if the specs are the same, but I'll still pick HD DVD if the specs are different. BD is doing far worse than expected and it's just not a good investment, especially when they can't even get the players ready...

I may have to side with tsb.... no need for the added cheerleading, we know how you feel.:)

Well, since the encodes are the same; other than the mentioned color difference/cover art the HD DVD's sometimes have IME; if that's important; and BD's may have PCM audio or other options in future releases. The biggest differences for me given the same encodes are no combos on blu and scratch-resistant coating. If the HD DVD isn't a combo, is the same price, has no IME, and the audio options are equivalent then there really is no other factor besides cover art, scratch-resistance, and preferance based on player performance.
and rewarding doubtful business practices

Wow - a thread on picking titles based on the color of the box? :eek:

I pick HD DVD because it is the format that has given customers a better product and a better experience.

The players are ready, the manufacturing is ready, etc.

Yes, I'l pick HD DVD if the specs are the same, but I'll still pick HD DVD if the specs are different. BD is doing far worse than expected and it's just not a good investment, especially when they can't even get the players ready...Mine plays just fine. It has been a great investment and will continue to be. At least we have a choice on who we want to make our equipment. I do have one of my HD TV's being a Toshiba, but my Blu Ray is a Samsung.

So there I was today. Exhanging my Alexander DVD for either the HD DVD or Blu-ray. And I couldn't decide. I had both in my hand and I just stood there. Looking at the back, for some clue as to which I should pick.

That reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns fired Smithers (or maybe he quit?), and had to fend for himself for once (something he'd never done before).

He ended up at a supermarket, holding two bottles of ketchup--one labeled "ketchup" and the other "catsup." He stood there for a few moments, looking back and forth between them, saying, "Ketchup....Catsup."

LOL there is nothing to decide since wb is using the exact same videotransfer, of course that videotransfer for low hd dvd technical spezifications.
(yes i call it low cause 30GB < 50GB and 30mbps < 48mbps)
if wb would release seperate transfer, its easy, you would choose blu-ray!
one 40GB movie + 44mbps are always better than 20gb movie + 16mbps

I don't think you should talk about "specifications" if you can't spell it :)

Just my humble opinion.

And now much and what size disk for an HD DVD?

HD DVD's commonly used VC-1 codec, being highly efficient, doesn't require the bloated bandwidth numbers and capacity numbers in order to deliver an equal or better video presentation :)

But I wouldn't expect a "blu-blood" to understand that.

By your logic, you'd pick a train locomotive over a Corvette in a quarter mile race based on the fact that it can pull more cargo, and has more horsepower than the 'vette.

Right there with the OP on this one... I have 6 warner titles to order and I just can't decide. I am thinking red because I will probably have a second player for that first but this is hard. Otherwise, I have 8 red and 11 blue exclusives on my Q4 buying list. Maybe I'll go 4 red and 2 blue to make it 50/50. :)

I know you know this, but I'll mention it for the people that don't. The force required to cause an irrecoverable scratch on a Blu-ray would be so great that an HD DVD submitted to the same level of scratch force would not be reparable. That is a fact. The hard coating laughs at the force that generates the repairable piddly scuffs and scratches on DVD/HD DVD.
You're assuming a lot here, and omitting everything else. Even a tiny scratch, smudges or debris on a Blu-ray disc has a higher likelihood of causing serious video stutters, audio dropouts or freezes during playback due to the physical nature of the discs themselves. Since the data resides only 0.1 mm from the surface of the hard coat, the laser needs to focus extremely close to the surface and a tiny scratch or hairline crack can cause serious problems as it interferes with the laser's ability to cleanly read the data. In the case of HD DVD, the data is six times deeper at 0.6 mm from the surface, so if a tiny scratch is present it has a much better chance of reading the data without issue since the laser focuses deeper in the disc, beyond any interferance. If a scratch does affect playback on an HD DVD, it can be repaired very easily. In other words, if the force is big enough to scratch either disc even without damaging the data, your best bet is to have the format that you can repair, and Blu-ray is not that format.

And none of what you said changes that it is in fact more resistant to scratches than HD DVD.
More resistant, sure, but that's all it is, nothing more, and Blu-ray discs still scratch.

I think it would be hard to do since HD DVD's claim to fame is that it's cheaper to manufacture on existing DVD lines. That works well for them because they don't pass the savings on to the customers. Profit!
It's much more than that. A scratch resistant coating is for one thing, and one thing only: to protect the data. As I've mentioned, Blu-ray is useless without a scratch resistant coating due to its physical design, but HD DVD by design does not require scratch resistance like Blu-ray does since the data is already protected as it resides in between two 0.6 mm substrates and is repairable as a result.

This point should not be lost. Don Diotte, CEO of Venmill Industries said the following in The Winnipeg Free Press, Page E5, Nov 15, 2006:

"Blu-ray may hold more data than HD-DVD disks, but there is a trade-off. To fit more information on the disk, Sony had to reduce the thickness of the protective coating. Consequently, the discs are much more vulnerable to scratches... In the USA there's a billion dollar buy-sell industry around computer games. I do not know how they're going to face the reality that Blu-Ray is an unrepairable format."

So there you have it. Not only is the longterm viability of this hard coat in question, the required scratch resistant coating on Blu-ray discs can still scratch regardless and when they do they are much more vulnerable to scratches and will skip, stutter, freeze and outright ruin the disc. Once this happens, you're out of luck since the disc cannot be repaired. With HD DVD, the same scratch will either not affect playback because the laser does not have to focus so close to the surface, or if playback is affected HD DVD can be fixed very easily just like a regular CD or DVD. Blu-ray disc was originally designed to be inside a caddy, and they should have kept it that way.

Plus I have to clean all of my blu-ray disc before they'll play correctly. I don't see anything wrong with them, but often if I load a disc w/o wiping it first, it has trouble recognizing it. I don't have this problem with HD DVD.
Case in point. :)

Greetings

I would have gone for the scratch coating on the blue ... all else being even.

Regards

As an HD DVD owner, I have to agree, especially when buying multi-disc sets.
In my case, both Planet Earth and Heroes arrived with loose discs jumping inside the case all across the Atlantic, and they had scratches.

Right there with the OP on this one... I have 6 warner titles to order and I just can't decide. I am thinking red because I will probably have a second player for that first but this is hard. Otherwise, I have 8 red and 11 blue exclusives on my Q4 buying list. Maybe I'll go 4 red and 2 blue to make it 50/50. :)

Good a reason as any to pick. :D

You're assuming a lot here, and omitting everything else. Even a tiny scratch, smudges or debris on a Blu-ray disc has a higher likelihood of causing serious video stutters, audio dropouts or freezes during playback due to the physical nature of the discs themselves. Since the data resides only 0.1 mm from the surface of the hard coat, the laser needs to focus extremely close to the surface and a tiny scratch or hairline crack can cause serious problems as it interferes with the laser's ability to cleanly read the data. In the case of HD DVD, the data is six times deeper at 0.6 mm from the surface, so if a tiny scratch is present it has a much better chance of reading the data without issue since the laser focuses deeper in the disc, beyond any interferance. If a scratch does affect playback on an HD DVD, it can be repaired very easily. In other words, if the force is big enough to scratch either disc even without damaging the data, your best bet is to have the format that you can repair, and Blu-ray is not that format.


More resistant, sure, but that's all it is, nothing more, and Blu-ray discs still scratch.


It's much more than that. A scratch resistant coating is for one thing, and one thing only: to protect the data. As I've mentioned, Blu-ray is useless without a scratch resistant coating due to its physical design, but HD DVD by design does not require scratch resistance like Blu-ray does since the data is already protected as it resides in between two 0.6 mm substrates and is repairable as a result.

This point should not be lost. Don Diotte, CEO of Venmill Industries said the following in The Winnipeg Free Press, Page E5, Nov 15, 2006:

"Blu-ray may hold more data than HD-DVD disks, but there is a trade-off. To fit more information on the disk, Sony had to reduce the thickness of the protective coating. Consequently, the discs are much more vulnerable to scratches... In the USA there's a billion dollar buy-sell industry around computer games. I do not know how they're going to face the reality that Blu-Ray is an unrepairable format."

So there you have it. Not only is the longterm viability of this hard coat in question, the required scratch resistant coating on Blu-ray discs can still scratch regardless and when they do they are much more vulnerable to scratches and will skip, stutter, freeze and outright ruin the disc. Once this happens, you're out of luck since the disc cannot be repaired. With HD DVD, the same scratch will either not affect playback because the laser does not have to focus so close to the surface, or if playback is affected HD DVD can be fixed very easily just like a regular CD or DVD. Blu-ray disc was originally designed to be inside a caddy, and they should have kept it that way.


Case in point. :)


1. How much force does it take to penetrate the HD DVD .6mm protective layer ?

2. How much force does it take to penetrate the Blu-ray .1mm protective layer ?

If it takes 6 times more force to penetrate/scratch a Blu-ray disc than an HD DVD disc, then they are equal because if you penetrate past the .06mm protective layer, there's no repairing.

also, the comment that someone needs to wipe his Blu-ray discs before playing them, maybe the issue is his laser lens is getting dusty or is dusty and require that the disc free from any particles.

I've yet to clean any Blu-ray discs, rental(with small scratches) or own and have had zero issues with ANY discs I've thrown at my player.

If you rent both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray you would know that it does make a huge difference. I have never gotten a Blu-Ray disc with a scratch on it and I've never had a rental have playback issues. HD-DVD rentals are always hit and miss...

It's no different than with DVDs. Personally, I've never rented a DVD that wouldn't play--and it's the same with HD-DVD. On the other hand, a 0.1mm scratch on a Blu-Ray disc is going to tear into the data layer. You can't just smooth that out with a machine.

So there I was today. Exhanging my Alexander DVD for either the HD DVD or Blu-ray. And I couldn't decide. I had both in my hand and I just stood there. Looking at the back, for some clue as to which I should pick. Nothing. Same specs AV specs (which I knew gonig in). Then I thought there might be exclusives on the HD DVD version. Didn't seem like it. In the end *and I swear, you'll laugh*, I went with the Blu-ray version because the artwork looked better with the Blue case. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I hope Warner picks a side.

I would buy the HD-DVD version simply because their players are much cheaper and down the road you may have occasion to have 2 or 3 HD players around the house just like most people have multiple DVD players scattered around the house today.

I would buy the HD-DVD version simply because their players are much cheaper and down the road you may have occasion to have 2 or 3 HD players around the house just like most people have multiple DVD players scattered around the house today.
He doesn't need to buy a player. He already has both, that is why he has to decide which format disc to buy:confused:.

He doesn't need to buy a player. He already has both, that is why he has to decide which format disc to buy:confused:.

Sorry...I guess I didn't make myself clear. I know he's format neutral. I'm simply saying that...well...to give an example. I have 3 HD TV's and currently only 1 HD player, the A2. My next purchase would be a cheap Blu-ray (if they ever decide to make one) and I would buy, down the road another HD player, and it would most likely be a HD-DVD player because it's lower in price. Therefore, being format neutral, and having 2 HD-DVD player VS 1 Blu-ray player, I would purchase, giving a choice of HD-DVD or Blu-ray on the same title, the HD-DVD version.

Sorry...I guess I didn't make myself clear. I know he's format neutral. I'm simply saying that...well...to give an example. I have 3 HD TV's and currently only 1 HD player, the A2. My next purchase would be a cheap Blu-ray (if they ever decide to make one) and I would buy, down the road another HD player, and it would most likely be a HD-DVD player because it's lower in price. Therefore, being format neutral, and having 2 HD-DVD player VS 1 Blu-ray player, I would purchase, giving a choice of HD-DVD or Blu-ray on the same title, the HD-DVD version.
OK. In my case, being format neutral, my next player will be a combo. There is no way that I want to deal with 4 players.

Yes!

So far, I have four HD titles from Warner, and they're all on HD DVD:

300
Batman Begins
Bullitt
The Matrix Collection

Two of those are HD DVD exclusive (BB and Matrix) and a third (300) may as well be since the BD version is lacking a really cool feature. So, for me, WB is kind of HD DVD exclusive already.

For the titles that are equal, like the upcoming Bladerunner set, I'll still get it on HD DVD just because I don't want to have different titles from the same studio on different formats (without a really good reason). I'm just funny that way.

I prefer HD-DVD. Mainly due to less copy protection (no upcoming BD+) and lower hardware prices. I also like combos :p So I opt for HD-DVD and support the format I prefer.

If you have no preference on supporting one or the other, get whichever is available cheaper. I would rather play discs on an HD-DVD player than the PS3. If you have a BD standalone then...I dunno, flip a coin.

scratch resistant ??..don't use'em as coasters..my first cd "52nd st" still no scratches what do you guys do that scratch em...oh kids

1. How much force does it take to penetrate the HD DVD .6mm protective layer ?

2. How much force does it take to penetrate the Blu-ray .1mm protective layer ?

If it takes 6 times more force to penetrate/scratch a Blu-ray disc than an HD DVD disc, then they are equal because if you penetrate past the .06mm protective layer, there's no repairing.
This is what I would call a conjecture-based response. It lacks facts. If I can retort in kind, then if it takes only twice the force to penetrate/scratch a Blu-ray disc, then they are not equal and Blu-ray is at a terrible disadvantage now isn't it? And the degree to which a scratch needs to be in order to affect a Blu-ray disc is much smaller than an HD DVD disc. So all things being equal, you're much better off choosing HD DVD. The majority of scratches may not destroy the data on either format, but why select a format that cannot be repaired to begin with?

also, the comment that someone needs to wipe his Blu-ray discs before playing them, maybe the issue is his laser lens is getting dusty or is dusty and require that the disc free from any particles.
Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't. Remember when PC Mag reviewed (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1985079,00.asp) the Samsung BD-P1000 and what they discovered if their Blu-ray disc wasn't perfectly clean? Here is a snippet:

"As for the Blu-ray discs themselves, I found them to be more sensitive to smudges and other nonpermanent marks than standard DVD videos and the HD DVD titles I've used, though they are more scratch-resistant than regular DVDs. I was somewhat surprised when the BD-P1000 ejected a Blu-ray movie with the message 'unreadable.' After removing a decent-size oily smudge that started near the center hub and continued about halfway to the outside edge of the disc, I returned it to the BD-P1000 and it played perfectly."

Now if this smudge was elsewhere on the disc, maybe it would have simply locked up during playback, or stuttered, or there would have been audio dropouts. But this is the nature of Blu-ray discs. They're more sensitive to these issues, and when they scratch you're out of luck.

I've yet to clean any Blu-ray discs, rental(with small scratches) or own and have had zero issues with ANY discs I've thrown at my player.
You are very fortunate my friend, so far. :)

I rented "Crank" the other night. I had repeated problems in one spot near the end of the movie. Eventually, I just skipped to the next chapter.

On the other side, Ive never had any problems with HD DVDs Ive rented. And Ive rented quite a bit.

How dare you post something counter to his fud

It's no different than with DVDs. Personally, I've never rented a DVD that wouldn't play--and it's the same with HD-DVD. On the other hand, a 0.1mm scratch on a Blu-Ray disc is going to tear into the data layer. You can't just smooth that out with a machine.

Click on this link and get back to me again with your analysis....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ

Click on this link and get back to me again with your analysis....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ
I am amazed that there are still Blu-ray supporters who love to point to this youtube video of a BD "torture test" where someone appears to damage a Blu-ray disc a number of times only to see it "work perfectly" after each "test". I'm dumbfounded that people still point out this video. The only thing that "test" proves is that the tester doesn't even know how to conduct a proper test. Just because the disc was recognized as a Blu-ray disc and appeared to start loading does not mean that it wouldn't have stuttered or stopped playing all together 5 or 10 seconds after starting the movie, assuming that it would have even got to the menu. Why did we not even see the menu load up? Or the movie playing? Why did the tester fail to state that the movie played back flawlessly from beginning to end after each "test"? The truth of the matter is that it would have been laughed at and tossed out as inadmissible in any court of law. It was nothing more than one nonsensical attempt to demonstrate the 'indestructible' nature of a Blu-ray disc. Anybody who falls for that fairytale video will likely fall for anything.

So let's come back to the real world. Here are some recent threads from the Blu-ray software forum of problems that users have been having with slight scratches or hairline cracks:

Small scratches = big time skipping (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11244474#post11244474)
Netflix vs Blockbuster re: cracked discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881139)
Is Netflix resurfaceing Blu-Rays the same way DVD's are resurfaced? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=878527)
Problem with the Searchers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868337)
Netflix: No comment on Blu-Ray resurfacing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879220)
Two damaged Stargate Bluray disks in a row from Netflix (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=870646)
HellBoy Playback Problems (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=869968)

Bottom line is that no format is without issue, but again, if I were to choose between a format that could be repaired and one that could not, I choose the format that I can fix if the need arises. And that choice is HD DVD.

I am amazed that there are still Blu-ray supporters who love to point to this youtube video of a BD "torture test" where someone appears to damage a Blu-ray disc a number of times only to see it "work perfectly" after each "test". I'm dumbfounded that people still point out this video. The only thing that "test" proves is that the tester doesn't even know how to conduct a proper test. Just because the disc was recognized as a Blu-ray disc and appeared to start loading does not mean that it wouldn't have stuttered or stopped playing all together 5 or 10 seconds after starting the movie, assuming that it would have even got to the menu. Why did we not even see the menu load up? Or the movie playing? Why did the tester fail to state that the movie played back flawlessly from beginning to end after each "test"? The truth of the matter is that it would have been laughed at and tossed out as inadmissible in any court of law. It was nothing more than one nonsensical attempt to demonstrate the 'indestructible' nature of a Blu-ray disc. Anybody who falls for that fairytale video will likely fall for anything.

So let's come back to the real world. Here are some recent threads from the Blu-ray software forum of problems that users have been having with slight scratches or hairline cracks:

Small scratches = big time skipping (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11244474#post11244474)
Netflix vs Blockbuster re: cracked discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881139)
Is Netflix resurfaceing Blu-Rays the same way DVD's are resurfaced? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=878527)
Problem with the Searchers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868337)
Netflix: No comment on Blu-Ray resurfacing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=879220)
Two damaged Stargate Bluray disks in a row from Netflix (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=870646)
HellBoy Playback Problems (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=869968)

Bottom line is that no format is without issue, but again, if I were to choose between a format that could be repaired and one that could not, I choose the format that I can fix if the need arises. And that choice is HD DVD.

Take a brillo pad and rub it on any HD-DVD disc and then do the same on a Blu-Ray.. Which one do you think will survive? You keep spreading FUD around but the facts are facts as to which is much much more durable...

Take a brillo pad and rub it on any HD-DVD disc and then do the same on a Blu-Ray.. Which one do you think will survive? You keep spreading FUD around but the facts are facts as to which is much much more durable...

I think these "tests" go way over and above common use and therefore mean nothing. I have never seen a BD disc in my hands, but I will admit that if the coating prevents common damage.. it's a good feature. On the other hand, if it makes it suceptable to other things like smears and smudges (things that are more common to occur to a disc vs. scrubbing it with steel wool) then i'd say that has a downside as well.

I have over 1000 DVDs and haven't had ANY scratches that rendered a movie unplayable. I have had some that caused skipping and freezing (mostly on my older DVD players) but those were fixed with a bit of polish.

As long as either format has the ability survive some light scratching and scuffing (or be easily repaired) - I think this is a non issue. BD requires coating to protect a more sensitive closer layer which keeps it nice and good.. and HD-DVD has the same technology used on my 1000+ DVDs proven for years and years which keep it nice and good and easily repairable.

If you can take an axe to a BD disc and it still survives.. hurray! That's pretty crazy strong stuff.. but is it a selling feature vs. the other format? Not at all.. not many people are going to scrub their discs with steel wool or smack them with an axe.

If either format can hold up to sliding against the table or accidently being dropped on the floor... we're good to go.

If the discs are identical it's a no-brainer to go Blu. Simply because my PS3 is near silent and my 360 w/add-on sounds like a 747 gunning it on the runway most of the time. If there is some extra IME stuff on the HD DVD, then it gets difficult.

HD DVD is the perfect choice, IMO.

With HD DVD, we can get to mass-market levels more quickly and have TONS of releases from all studios if there were no war.

Conversely, if BD were the only format, they would not be able to ramp up for another year or two.

And in reality, BD has not offered any "real" advantages - all talk of theoretical bandwidth advantages aside. Yet HD DVD has delivered on it's promised advantages.

And in reality, BD has not offered any "real" advantages - all talk of theoretical bandwidth advantages aside. Yet HD DVD has delivered on it's promised advantages.

What about Tl51???? Hypocritical anyone?

What about Tl51???? Hypocritical anyone?

Hey Supe! How's your shoulder? Almost fully healed? I hope so.

So what about the TL51? Do you have any questions I can help you with?

I'm sure most of you have seen this, but I thought I'd share it for those who had doubts about Blu-ray's scratch resistance.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5jEbZt6AIQ&mode=related&search=

I'm sure most of you have seen this, but I thought I'd share it for those who had doubts about Blu-ray's scratch resistance.
Read my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11762231#post11762231) above.

Hey Supe! How's your shoulder? Almost fully healed? I hope so.

So what about the TL51? Do you have any questions I can help you with?

Rdjam has stated that "HD DVD has delivered on it's promised advantages" when it hasn't yet. As you may know, this is hypocritical to point out issues with Blu-Ray specs and ignore the issue with HD-DVD.. I'll point this out whenever I see it.

Lee, I recommend switching from a 720p HDTV to a newer model 1080p and or even better, get an RS1 projector for about 5K. It is a noticeable improvement in picture quality when viewing HD from both formats. You'll be able to see the differences better between high quality Blu-Ray and HD-DVD titles with higher bitrates vs lower quality HD titles better. I'm currently reviewing both Natures Journey titles in both formats and will have my reviews up very shortly for both. I'm sure you'll find them interesting. As for my shoulder, it will take many more months for it to be fully healed unfortunately, however it is getting better.

As for choosing between the Red or Blue Warner title, always go Blue when given the choice if all things are equal because they really aren't equal. Blu-Ray does have that extra protective layer which means it will last longer and is a smarter choice for any collector. Peace Out...

Read my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11762231#post11762231) above.

CNET, and other big name review companies confirmed those tests were accurate as they themselves conducted torture tests on Blu-Ray discs themselves that were of similar nature and watched the movie all the way thru without issues. You only seem to want to post FUD. Do you believe this is the only person to conduct torture tests on Blu-Ray discs? Verbatim who manufactures Blu-Ray discs have conducted the same "Steel Wool" torture test found in the kids video which is far worse than rubbing the disc on a counter top data side down...So don't believe the FUD...

http://www.verbatim-europe.com/index/press_releases_view.php?cat_id=580&article_id=711&lang_id=1&menu1=334&menu2=link2257&menu3=

"Verbatim's products have a ScratchGuard coating and will withstand finger print smudges as well as being dirt and dust repellant. They are also less sensitive to ultraviolet light and have successfully passed the 'steel wool' test - this involves a steel wool cloth being rubbed against our Blu-ray discs to simulate possible day-to-day hazards."

"Hard coating technology pioneered by TDK is part of the Blu-ray specification, but only TDK Blu-ray Discs have DURABIS 2, the industry's most advanced hard coating technology. DURABIS 2 increases the scratch resistance of Blu-ray Disc media by a factor of 100, as demonstrated in rigorous testing. DURABIS 2 also resists fingerprints to help eliminate errors caused by recording surface smudges."

Rdjam has stated that "HD DVD has delivered on it's promised advantages" when it hasn't yet. Oh yes it has. However, you made a post claiming that TL51 was a "promised" advantage, which it was not. Therefore, even there is no formal news on TL51 till after the DVD Forum meeting, it still is not an unfullfilled promise, because ot was never a promise.

However, HD DVD can be manufactured more easily and cheaply and with higher yields than BD. DVD plants are more easilt converted to HD DVD production than BD. HD DVD players all meet one solid spec, unlike BD. HDi language is easier to program for and works on all HD DVD players, unlike BD. BD is still waiting for players that meet their first "official spec", BD 1.1, unlike HD DVD.

Shall I continue explaining my original meaning?

As you may know, this is hypocritical to point out issues with Blu-Ray specs and ignore the issue with HD-DVD...WHAT issue with HD DVD? Just because you make one up and call it a promise? You mean like 100 Gig discs on Bluray? Nah - I'd rather talk about the actual real items that were promised to be in the spec.

The only thing that "test" proves is that the tester doesn't even know how to conduct a proper test. Just because the disc was recognized as a Blu-ray disc and appeared to start loading does not mean that it wouldn't have stuttered or stopped playing all together 5 or 10 seconds after starting the movie, assuming that it would have even got to the menu. Why did we not even see the menu load up? Or the movie playing? Why did the tester fail to state that the movie played back flawlessly from beginning to end after each "test"? The truth of the matter is that it would have been laughed at and tossed out as inadmissible in any court of law. It was nothing more than one nonsensical attempt to demonstrate the 'indestructible' nature of a Blu-ray disc. Anybody who falls for that fairytale video will likely fall for anything.

Everything's a conspiracy with you guys. You won't even believe something that you see on video.

For instance, many of you don't believe that Blades of Glory ever existed on Blu-ray; even though I've proven it on video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyWXnY-7278
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ5JiaJawvU

Why is it so hard to accept that you may not always be right about some things?

I will always buy a non-hybrid version over a SD combo which used to mean Blu for a good number of titles, although with non-combo rereleases for HD-DVD being released this is becoming less of a factor. I will usually buy the cheaper version which is often only a factor for titles with combos. I will also tend to shy away from the version that has more problem related threads on this site. I ended up buying the Blu- version of 300 for all of these reasons.

I think for non-combo releases I slightly lean towards HD-DVD. I recently bought a wifi bridge/game adapter for the Toshiba which evened out the playing field for my machines since my firmware was getting outdated and the PS3 has wifi. I love the online interactivity and am a little surprised at how small the drive is, although it still has enough empty space. I wish the HD was as easy to swap out as the PS3's. Now the only complaint about my Toshiba is the slow start and load times.

Although the PQ for the PS3 is on par with the Toshiba the lack of analog out really hurts AQ since I'm running toslink out of the machine. This is compounded by the amount of noise this machine generates. I will eventually get a new receiver, but have been waiting for the ones with internal DTS HDMA decoding. Granted the audio quality for in player vs. in receiver should be comparable, I do enjoy having the decoding displayed (yes I know this is silly) in the receiver. Plus I was a bit skeptic about the first gen HDMI receivers and I'm fond of my current receiver, so decided to get a DVDO VP30 as my HDMI switcher instead. On the plus side my roommate is a Blu owner and I often borrow titles from him. Overall I own more Blu- Warner due to the price of those awful hybrids.

Oh yes it has. However, you made a post claiming that TL51 was a "promised" advantage, which it was not. Therefore, even there is no formal news on TL51 till after the DVD Forum meeting, it still is not an unfullfilled promise, because ot was never a promise.

However, HD DVD can be manufactured more easily and cheaply and with higher yields than BD. DVD plants are more easilt converted to HD DVD production than BD. HD DVD players all meet one solid spec, unlike BD. HDi language is easier to program for and works on all HD DVD players, unlike BD. BD is still waiting for players that meet their first "official spec", BD 1.1, unlike HD DVD.

Shall I continue explaining my original meaning?

WHAT issue with HD DVD? Just because you make one up and call it a promise? You mean like 100 Gig discs on Bluray? Nah - I'd rather talk about the actual real items that were promised to be in the spec.

TL51 is now in the official spec since it was approved.

"The DVD Forum Steering Committee approved the TL51 spec....."

51GB HD DVD approved for production

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/51gb-hd-dvd-approved-for-production/4731

http://www.betanews.com/article/ThreeLayer_51_GB_HD_DVD_Apparently_Approved_by_DVD_Forum/1189526039

So since it is official spec now, why do you continue to say HD-DVD has completed specs when TL51 isn't out yet hmm?.. And no word whether it will be fully compatible with all current Toshiba players.. In addition no word on whether the third extra layer will cause jitter in sound streams which is a phenomenon we have heard with multiple layer use already on different mediums. Blu-Ray is already 50Gb with 2 layers and zero playback issues with sound and video. Where is HD-DVD's completed specs when TL51 is nowhere to be seen and no more talk of it by anybody?

If TL51 doesn't work up to everyones expectations and isn't compatible with current gen players, will you change your tune about completed specs then?

What about Tl51???? Hypocritical anyone?

Didn't I see you on the Tier list of HD DVD supporters at BD.com? Did you switch alliances or something?:)

TL51 is now in the official spec since it was approved.

"The DVD Forum Steering Committee approved the TL51 spec....."

51GB HD DVD approved for production

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/51gb-hd-dvd-approved-for-production/4731

http://www.betanews.com/article/ThreeLayer_51_GB_HD_DVD_Apparently_Approved_by_DVD_Forum/1189526039

So since it is official spec now, why do you continue to say HD-DVD has completed specs when TL51 isn't out yet hmm?.. And no word whether it will be fully compatible with all current Toshiba players.. In addition no word on whether the third extra layer will cause jitter in sound streams which is a phenomenon we have heard with multiple layer use already on different mediums. Blu-Ray is already 50Gb with 2 layers and zero playback issues with sound and video. Where is HD-DVD's completed specs when TL51 is nowhere to be seen and no more talk of it by anybody?

If TL51 doesn't work up to everyones expectations and isn't compatible with current gen players, will you change your tune about completed specs then?

You keep linking articles from websites that do not understand the approval process by the DVD Forum.

The TL51 has received First Approval. There is yet another approval needed BEFORE it can go into production called the Final Production Approval. The TL51 has not yet received this so it is NOT in production.

There are PDF(s) concerning compatability of ANY disc that is submitted to the Forum for FPA.

Again - all this info is clearly stated in the many PDF's at the DVD Forum's website.

The TL Twin received the FPA so it will be coming out as soon as a studio chooses to use it.

Hey

Quote "The TL51 has received First Approval. There is yet another approval needed BEFORE it can go into production called the Final Production Approval. The TL51 has not yet received this so it is NOT in production."

Still confuses me for a format that was finalized from the start. I haven't seen any proof existing players would be compatable only the suggestion it wouldn't have been approved if existing players weren't compatable. For that matter I have yet to see plans to release any titles using this new disc configuration.

-Brian

Hey

Quote "The TL51 has received First Approval. There is yet another approval needed BEFORE it can go into production called the Final Production Approval. The TL51 has not yet received this so it is NOT in production."

Still confuses me for a format that was finalized from the start. I haven't seen any proof existing players would be compatable only the suggestion it wouldn't have been approved if existing players weren't compatable. For that matter I have yet to see plans to release any titles using this new disc configuration.

-Brian

Brian . . did you go to the DVD Forum's website and read all the PDF's concerning Verfication, Compatability and Approval process?

The specs ARE finished. The TL HD DVD dates back to 2005. It was a 45GB disc. The fact that it has been expanded to 51GB means nothing - it is the TL spec - the first triple layer HD disc.

And how can a studio announce a movie on a TL51 when it STILL has to get the Final Production Approval? It is only half way through the approval process.