Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

Video/Audio Quality.

Video/Audio Quality.

Money...That is all.

It's because if I was to say that I (or you, or the local corner shop) was going Blu-Ray exclusive the BDA would make a large multi national announcement about it.

I am only seeing superfluous endorsements, not actual put your money where your mouth is kind of announcements....these are often folks who are desperately trying to get their names in the public domain, so free PR.

Target, Blockbuster....happened a while back. With Target so far doing minimal work to shape the format war either way. Their titles carried is woeful for both formats and the Sony BD player would be $300 above their avg. DVD player and almost $200 over their premium upconverting DVD player....Blockbuster was an important win for BD - no doubt.

But if you consider the exclusive deals BD currently has in terms of studio support it is clear that it is ONLY exclusive studio support that is keeping the format alive. IF all studios were neutral, BD would be history. So they limp along....as a loss making industry....for how long? As long as Sony and (Panny to a much smaller degree) continues to fund the losses....

Video/Audio Quality.

Is this the new blu mantra now? I mean they keep changing it so it is tough to follow.

I recall ... "Studio support!" but when Paramount and Dreamworks dropped blu it became "Capacity!" but when release dates and cancellations due to yield and production issues became apparent the cry became "bit rate!" ... I guess since that does not give tangible results the new mantra is now "PQ/AQ" ...

When will "Profile" ever become the mantra? I suspect after "Features" ....

I have no idea why companies are sticking with Blu-ray. Sony promised the studios millions of Blu-ray playing PS3s in 2007 and they failed to deliver. 50 GB discs are still a problem to produce. Upcoming profiles and obsolete player issues are still ahead. It's a mess.

HD DVD is starting to take more market share from Blu-ray, I think you'll start to see more companies start to rethink their Blu-ray support very soon.

I'd say their marketing is more aggressive.

I'd say their marketing is more aggressive.

No doubt about that !

Art

I think it's definitely about marketing. People I know who are "tech" type people (but are casual movie watchers) tend to go with numbers. They hear 50 GB vs 30 GB. They tend to also think of it in terms of computers as far as backing up data. They see 1 HD DVD player manufacturer and 10 different blu-ray companies. Everyone heard the Blockbuster announcement as well

Finally one of the biggest misunderstandings is this: Some of them think HD DVD uses old technology and is already obsolete. This is obviously confused with the manufacturing process. Tech people tend to shun stuff when they feel it is bogged down by the need for legacy support. Obviously this is all misinformation or misunderstanding but it doesn't help.

When I say "tech" people, i mean people who are fairly up to date with consumer electronics and typically work with computers (software development, hardware development). The thing is, most of them are not "movie" watchers, so they have no problem waiting for format war to end.

Video/Audio Quality.

Must be something else.

Maybe some companies are suffering from the same PR-influenced dillusion that BD fanboys are. Money or not, blockbuster bought into the hype, and I hope they crash and burn for it.

:)

Video/Audio Quality.Why don't you stay in your own sandbox - or are you inviting us into yours? :mad:

:rolleyes:My guess is that it's because I got an HD-dvd player.

I think it's definitely about marketing. People I know who are "tech" type people (but are casual movie watchers) tend to go with numbers. They hear 50 GB vs 30 GB. They tend to also think of it in terms of computers as far as backing up data. They see 1 HD DVD player manufacturer and 10 different blu-ray companies. Everyone heard the Blockbuster announcement as well

Finally one of the biggest misunderstandings is this: Some of them think HD DVD uses old technology and is already obsolete. This is obviously confused with the manufacturing process. Tech people tend to shun stuff when they feel it is bogged down by the need for legacy support. Obviously this is all misinformation or misunderstanding but it doesn't help.

When I say "tech" people, i mean people who are fairly up to date with consumer electronics and typically work with computers (software development, hardware development). The thing is, most of them are not "movie" watchers, so they have no problem waiting for format war to end.

In my dealings with tech guys it's actually been opposite! When I showed my uncle HD-DVD he went out and bought one the next day. He is very tech savvy. It was all about price and quality honestly.

I have noticed the same thing as the OP recently. Considering the import attributed to these Blockbuster-type Paramount announcements, it seems that BD is waging smaller attacks all over the place. Sharp recorders, Panasonic player, Home Theater Specialists support, Adobe Premier's support, possibly lower cost PS3, etc.

Actually, I think the war is over and the result is a stalemate. HD will get their cheap Chinese players, Toshiba will claim the higher profit HD market and BD will establish itself as a higher quality brand name/price/profit alternative. Toshiba goes after the BIG announcements and BD pursues death by a thousand cuts. The installed base and investment will become large enough that no one can afford to flip (although some may go combo) and the studios all go neutral in order to not lose out on any sales.

I'm optimistic here but I hope that realization settles in so this forum can get back to discussing the "science" of each instead of hourly announcements on what movie is being released on what format, who made some minor announcement and weak attempts to establish oneself as an insider by virtue of knowing some friend's brother's uncle who is in a position to leak "important new information". Jeeesh!

I can sum it all up in one word.

Sheeple.

because J6P (and no offense to J6P) buys what marketing tells them to buy. the BD propaganda tells J6P on a quarterly basis, that BD is superior to HD DVD and has won the war. J6P nievely believes this, and other companies know that this is the "formula" to making money.

what's best for the public has NEVER been priority #1 corporate america

American Idol shows just how well mediocrity sells

I'd say their marketing is more aggressive.
I'd say desperate - given their flag bearer is stillborn.

because J6P (and no offense to J6P) buys what marketing tells them to buy. the BD propaganda tells J6P on a quarterly basis, that BD is superior to HD DVD and has won the war. J6P nievely believes this, and other companies know that this is the "formula" to making money.

I tend to (respectfully) disagree with this.

There are a lot of well-informed consumers who do a fair bit of research about both formats. Some of us will lean more towards BD for its (current) technical upperhand regarding disc space and bandwidth capabilities, and others will lean more towards HD-DVD for its advanced interactivity features (which are immediately available) and its consistently outstanding picture quality (which is of course highly subjective).

As of now, the BD folk do have more exposure in the marketplace. Whether its the result of aggressive marketing or other factors is up for debate.

I think J6P (or at least most J6Pers) is still shying away from both formats, and most of the hi-def consumer-base is composed of a fairly complex mix of home theatre enthusiasts, gamers and early adopters.

Until either format reaches significant mainstream acceptance, I don't think we can label J6P as someone who is easily influenced by clever marketing tactics...especially since neither camp has put some serious effort into it yet.

What really confuses me even more than all these superficial corporate endorsements (clearly trying to impact public perception) is that people who actually work for their money waste it on such an incomplete mess as Blu-ray. Go figure.

I don't think we can label J6P as someone who is easily influenced by clever marketing tactics...especially since neither camp has put some serious effort into it yet.
The past tends to refute that. How many people bought a Pet Rock?
BD has put plenty of effort into FUD and smear campaigns.

I have noticed the same thing as the OP recently. Considering the import attributed to these Blockbuster-type Paramount announcements, it seems that BD is waging smaller attacks all over the place. Sharp recorders, Panasonic player, Home Theater Specialists support, Adobe Premier's support , possibly lower cost PS3, etc.



An aside:
Didn't know about Premiere being BD only. There's gonna be a lot of POed Premiere owners when they find out their video masterpieces when burned to BD cannot be played on their new BD players. :p

Video/Audio Quality.

Read the sound and vision reviews of these movies. ALWAYS, one format wins in audio and one format wins in video. How do you explain that? I doubt S&V is getting paid by either camp.

This seems to be an uninformed, parroted statement.

Pat

I find these "why BD over HD DVD" and vice versa so funny. I mean why do you care? Some people simply like the movie options on one format than the other. They support it for the Disney Pixar movies, spiderman etc whil HD supports theirs for Transformers, Jack Ryan etc

What "ever-growing support for BD"?? BD has been losing support steadily over the last few months.

Why? the same reason people still by BlOWS Stereo's...Sorry,I mean BOSE. Marketing

because J6P (and no offense to J6P) buys what marketing tells them to buy. the BD propaganda tells J6P on a quarterly basis, that BD is superior to HD DVD and has won the war. J6P nievely believes this, and other companies know that this is the "formula" to making money.


Bingo.

I JUST got back from Worst Buy, and I was checking things out when I saw a guy looking at the Sony 300 player. I struck up a conversation with him and he came across as the poster boy for J6P. I'm not slighting the guy in the least or J6P, but the things he was saying painted the picture quite clear on how the average person views this stuff. He said he "had to have da Blu-Ray for one of my HDMI jacks". I asked him if he was interested in HD DVD, and he said he already "had a Sony HD and a Panasonic HD, and wanted to add da Blu-Ray". I made a small attempt to inform him of the difference in upconvert and HD DVD, but he said that didn't matter because "da Blu-Ray is HD too". I couldn't win, so I went about my business and he bought the player anyway.

I never tried to steer him away from buying it, I just wanted to see what was making him want to buy one over the other.

Marketing here, plain and simple. All he knew was the buzzword, and that is what he needed.

This is pretty pathetic. Some people need to get a life :


Examples-

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17821

http://www.blu-crew.com/petitions.html

I can sum it all up in one word.

Sheeple.

This is exactly the reason. People follow other people and what they hear. The average consumer thinks Bluray is something new and different. HDDVD sounds too much like something they already have. Is that catchy name and flashy packaging/logo that has so much influence.

This is pretty pathetic. Some people need to get a life :


Examples-

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17821

http://www.blu-crew.com/petitions.html

You'll find instances of ridiculous zealotry on both sides....Similar petitions were suggested/discussed by posters in this very thread!

This is exactly the reason. People follow other people and what they hear. The average consumer thinks Bluray is something new and different. HDDVD sounds too much like something they already have. Is that catchy name and flashy packaging/logo that has so much influence.Exactly HD DVD sounds like a re-vamped version of SD DVD that is "evolutionary" while Blu-ray sounds like and is being marketed as a flashy new product that's "revolutionary". One sounds like the next step up or a little better than what people already have vs. the other sounds like a whole new product. It's all in the marketing.

Video/Audio Quality.

:rolleyes: riiiiiiiiiight

This is pretty pathetic. Some people need to get a life :


Examples-

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17821

http://www.blu-crew.com/petitions.html

And this one in particular:
http://www.blu-crew.com/warner07.html

I love the Warner rumors for both sides. However, this one takes the cake. I love how Warner will choose blu for its "technical superiority".

I tend to (respectfully) disagree with this.

There are a lot of well-informed consumers who do a fair bit of research about both formats. Some of us will lean more towards BD for its (current) technical upperhand regarding disc space and bandwidth capabilities, and others will lean more towards HD-DVD for its advanced interactivity features (which are immediately available) and its consistently outstanding picture quality (which is of course highly subjective).

As of now, the BD folk do have more exposure in the marketplace. Whether its the result of aggressive marketing or other factors is up for debate.

I think J6P (or at least most J6Pers) is still shying away from both formats, and most of the hi-def consumer-base is composed of a fairly complex mix of home theatre enthusiasts, gamers and early adopters.

Until either format reaches significant mainstream acceptance, I don't think we can label J6P as someone who is easily influenced by clever marketing tactics...especially since neither camp has put some serious effort into it yet.


Well said, hassoon.

I'll also add that alot of HDM newbies may choose Blu-ray over HD DVD because they want to see Disney or Fox movies in HD. That doesn't make them naive, but discerning buyers.

I'm surprised that some HD DVD supporters in this thread would jump to disparaging conclusions just because some consumers have chosen Blu-ray.

All this hate against one another is pointless.

Not that it should matter, but I have a Blu-ray player and plan on buying an HD DVD player soon to enjoy the Bourne movies in HD.

Why don't you stay in your own sandbox - or are you inviting us into yours? :mad:

lol

because J6P (and no offense to J6P) buys what marketing tells them to buy. the BD propaganda tells J6P on a quarterly basis, that BD is superior to HD DVD and has won the war. J6P nievely believes this, and other companies know that this is the "formula" to making money.

what's best for the public has NEVER been priority #1 corporate america

American Idol shows just how well mediocrity sells

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

I find these "why BD over HD DVD" and vice versa so funny. I mean why do you care? Some people simply like the movie options on one format than the other. They support it for the Disney Pixar movies, spiderman etc whil HD supports theirs for Transformers, Jack Ryan etc

This was well put and well worded.

What I don't get is why there are so many threads like this in the HD-DVD section. I guess HD-DVD guys think different. BD fans do not mention HD-DVD to often if ever. While HD-DVD guys always have to justify everything that BD says is "FUD." Marketing is marketing. If HD-DVD did things as BD did you would love it. Look at how Paramount was praised for taking money. But if BD does it with a studio it is frowned upon here. Now you guys are putting links to other BD sites and trying to crap on them. Do you really think the small voice that BD and HD-DVD combined even is making a dent. My major retail stores still do not even know why Blades of Glory did not come out on BD and still are "expecting them any day." That is hysterical me to that they even say that. But they really do not know. We, meaning people on these forums, are such a small small group. Recent surveys say that 90% of consumers have no clue what HDTV is. Now think about the % of people that know about HDTV but how few know about HD-DVD and BD.

This was well put and well worded.

What I don't get is why there are so many threads like this in the HD-DVD section. I guess HD-DVD guys think different. BD fans do not mention HD-DVD to often if ever. While HD-DVD guys always have to justify everything that BD says is "FUD." Marketing is marketing. If HD-DVD did things as BD did you would love it. Look at how Paramount was praised for taking money. But if BD does it with a studio it is frowned upon here. Now you guys are putting links to other BD sites and trying to crap on them. Do you really think the small voice that BD and HD-DVD combined even is making a dent. My major retail stores still do not even know why Blades of Glory did not come out on BD and still are "expecting them any day." That is hysterical me to that they even say that. But they really do not know. We, meaning people on these forums, are such a small small group. Recent surveys say that 90% of consumers have no clue what HDTV is. Now think about the % of people that know about HDTV but how few know about HD-DVD and BD.

It's good to hear a voice of reason, JoonTV.

It's threads like this one that gives AVS a bad name. They say that in the DVDTalk forums quite often.

This was well put and well worded.

What I don't get is why there are so many threads like this in the HD-DVD section. I guess HD-DVD guys think different. BD fans do not mention HD-DVD to often if ever. While HD-DVD guys always have to justify everything that BD says is "FUD." Marketing is marketing. If HD-DVD did things as BD did you would love it. Look at how Paramount was praised for taking money. But if BD does it with a studio it is frowned upon here. Now you guys are putting links to other BD sites and trying to crap on them. Do you really think the small voice that BD and HD-DVD combined even is making a dent. My major retail stores still do not even know why Blades of Glory did not come out on BD and still are "expecting them any day." That is hysterical me to that they even say that. But they really do not know. We, meaning people on these forums, are such a small small group. Recent surveys say that 90% of consumers have no clue what HDTV is. Now think about the % of people that know about HDTV but how few know about HD-DVD and BD.

Some red and blu supporters remind me of those sports fans who paint their faces and spend all their $$$ to follow their team. You know the ones, they always say "we" when they refer to their teams and nothing anyone affiliated with their team does can every be wrong. If you want some nice examples go look here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868186).

I'd say desperate - given their flag bearer is stillborn.

and the Paramounted thing wasn't desperate?

and the Paramounted thing wasn't desperate?please explain:confused:

please explain:confused:I think the "d" word they were looking for was "decisive"...;)...'cause Paramount's move sure wasn't desperate...:rolleyes:

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.
I would argue there there is NOT growing support for BD. With the loss of BD exclusive support from LG and Samsung, the loss of studio support from Paramount and DreamWorks, it seems to me that they are overall in a worse position than they were when this format war started. HD DVD, on the other hand, has gained exclusive studio support and gained CE support, and are in a much better position than when the format war started. In other words, Blu-ray has lost momentum, and HD DVD has gained it. And I don't see this trend changing any time soon.

:rolleyes:My guess is that it's because I got an HD-dvd player.

haha, yep. I bought one too, must be time to go under. :)

I have no idea why companies are sticking with Blu-ray. Sony promised the studios millions of Blu-ray playing PS3s in 2007 and they failed to deliver. 50 GB discs are still a problem to produce. Upcoming profiles and obsolete player issues are still ahead. It's a mess.

HD DVD is starting to take more market share from Blu-ray, I think you'll start to see more companies start to rethink their Blu-ray support very soon.

I hope you're right about this. I have a HD DVD player that I enjoy very much for months now, because I'm happy knowing the format was well though out and that the specs are completed plus there are plans to expand on them in the near future. Not to mention my HD DVD player has played very well just about every movies I've rented or purchased so far and has all those cool features. The only way I would take the Blu pill is if and when the price drops and features that are on HD DVD get incorporated. Hell! Dolby True HD cannot even be decoded by most of the players on the market today.

Let's not forget that the HTSA group are the same ones that backed laser discs, and that bombed. This is just free PR for them and Sony can now add another logo to their site.

Let's not forget that the HTSA group are the same ones that backed laser discs, and that bombed. This is just free PR for them and Sony can now add another logo to their site.

Laserdiscs hardly bombed. They were around in the late 70's and lasted right up until at least 2000.

As far as the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray debate... I have both :D

Bingo.

I JUST got back from Worst Buy, and I was checking things out when I saw a guy looking at the Sony 300 player. I struck up a conversation with him and he came across as the poster boy for J6P. I'm not slighting the guy in the least or J6P, but the things he was saying painted the picture quite clear on how the average person views this stuff. He said he "had to have da Blu-Ray for one of my HDMI jacks". I asked him if he was interested in HD DVD, and he said he already "had a Sony HD and a Panasonic HD, and wanted to add da Blu-Ray". I made a small attempt to inform him of the difference in upconvert and HD DVD, but he said that didn't matter because "da Blu-Ray is HD too". I couldn't win, so I went about my business and he bought the player anyway.

I never tried to steer him away from buying it, I just wanted to see what was making him want to buy one over the other.

Marketing here, plain and simple. All he knew was the buzzword, and that is what he needed.

What you probably failed to realize is that season one of "Ow, My Balls!" is a Blu-ray exclusive. This guy obviously knew that. ;) :D

...laser discs, and that bombed

Define "bombed". As pointed out above, LD was the absolute best in AV at the time, and was the choice for serious HT enthusiasts for nearly 20 years. The only difference is that, LD being niche, HT was not yet "contaminated" on a large scale like DVD has become. The best thing that could happen to HDM is for it to be a niche as well...

What you probably failed to realize is that season one of "Ow, My Balls!" is a Blu-ray exclusive. This guy obviously knew that. ;) :DBD - It's got electrolytes

The best thing that could happen to HDM is for it to be a niche as well...

What makes you say that?

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

My mom knows about both but doesn't care about either... lol.

What makes you say that?

Niche status, by definition, only applies to enthusiasts, and not J6P bystanders. All of the "I hate black bars"-type threads popping up all over are from J6P-type consumers. Also, when DVD went mainstream, the supplements began declining in quality to commercial fluff in order to appeal to the same demographic. For the perfect example, look at what has happened to the state of audio...

All of the "I hate black bars"-type threads popping up all over are from J6P-type consumers.

To be fair, many of those threads are started by those open matte freaks....:D

Hmm. I'll take "I hate black bars" threads every time, if it nets me all the benefits of a format going mainstream. Sorry, but if you think you're going to get more (and better quality) supplemental materials, etc. by HDM staying niche, I really don't know what kind of marketplace you're looking at.

This reminds me of the argument against seatbelt use because seatbelts have injured a couple of people.

It's a matter of pros and cons, strengths and weakness. A lot of posts about how HD group isnt doing any propaganda, advertising etc. Truth is this actually bodes well for HD group in that it is competing without having to prop itself up. Standing on its own is and should be the main concern if it is to be a sustainable format. Perception may be strong for BR, but I remember 360 drives selling out of BB online by 11:00 when they were priced at 150. Amazon and their HD player firesale yielded the same result, sellouts. So, value/price appears to be more affective than any amount of perception and propaganda. People are aware and respond to pricing and incentives. Therefore, support extends itself only to the point where value is overshadowed by price. Break the 200 mark and I would say you are going to see some true blu's going nuetral (though they may do that very quietly).

In agreement with another poster, I would say support is going away from it and periodicals are realizing that "this is BRs war to lose".

Cash is king, not everyone appreciates HD, some people think a pixel is square, and aspect ratio is a mystery to most

IMO, if HDM remains niche and does not go mass market you can kiss it all goodbye. It seems to be widely accepted that subsidies abound for both (ok 3) HDM formats and if no one is making or can never make a profit off it, it will go bye bye. Having J6P adopt HDM is good thing and should be encouraged.

BTW: I guess I'm just a stupid J6P since I don't particularly care for BB. I mean it is much more important to maintain the directors artistic intent for such movies as Norbit.

This is pretty pathetic. Some people need to get a life :


Examples-

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17821

http://www.blu-crew.com/petitions.html

More misinformation and disinformation.

Video/Audio Quality.

Reported.

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

Aside from the Paramount news there is nothing new to HD DVD.

You mean the venturer and onkyo player announcements weren't new?

Cash is king, not everyone appreciates HD, some people think a pixel is square, and aspect ratio is a mystery to most

Very prescient and profound... it gets back to the whole 'at the end of the day what decides what consumers collectively will purchase?'

And the answer to that (in the absence of obvious differences) is PRICE.

To the common man, there is no real difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray except for price.

So sure - some die-hard technology early adopters like Blu-ray more for reasons of specs - those same reasons will NEVER translate into the language of the common man (or woman ;-).


Cheers,
Bourkie

P.S. I love how the last month of Nielson sales figures show Blu-ray Disc sales are starting to decelerate :-)

BD - It's got electrolytes

It's got what HDTVs crave.

Vincent

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

Sorry to hear about your mum. Tragedy really. Hey, you dragged her into this!

Sorry to hear about your mum. Tragedy really. Hey, you dragged her into this!

Jerk. :P

BD fans do not mention HD-DVD to often if ever.

Quoted for comedy.

One of the unspoken conditions for any CE company to maunfacture Blu-ray products is the requirement they set up a secret P.T. Barnum department. That department is responsible for recruiting new consumers into the Blu-ray fold. The BDA's mandatory contractual language covering the P.T. Barnum requirement is titled: "There's a sucker born every minute!"

This easily explains any increase in Blu fanboyism. :D

Mark

WARNING: Please read this with an open mind, void of fanboyism

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray. To me, and I've been a neutral guy since the beginning, both formats offer me the same exact experience. I get wonderful 1080p transfers from both, I get lossless sound from both. The two things thus far that I get on HD-DVD that I can't on Blu-Ray (yet...) is PiP and Internet Connectivity (useless so far), but these will be available on the blu side very soon, including the pointless but novel idea of HD-in-HD PiP. Heck, Buena Vista and Fox are even planning multiplayer online games for next year, so the interactivity is coming.

My overall neutral past aside, and I know this will draw negative responses, I generally support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. It is nothing technical, as HD-DVD is insanely capable and has really great hardware prices, but I simply don't like supporting the red side, and generally only buy their discs if they are exclusives, mainly just Universal new release combos. Why? Every purchase only prolongs the format war. If industry trends, studio/manufacturer/retailer support, and the sales lead continue the way they are, HD-DVD has the lesser chance of survival. The only reason I occasionally buy red discs anymore is because should it disapear, I can still watch my Universal and Warner combos on future players.

Secondly, do you guys ever think either of these formats will penetrate the general public while the other survives? There is far too much confusion out there, and in the mind of J6P it's simply far easier to continue buying the cheaper DVD. And for those of you who think it doesn't matter, and that as long as you can watch your movies it's ok, think about this: What is the only way software will go down in price? The simple answer is not until there are enough people buying the movies to generate a similar profit for distributors at a lower cost. In my mind, paying 28 bucks (the cheapest price around, via Amazon) for Paramount and Fox discs is just absurd, and I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to pay it anymore.

Please don't think me a fanboy, because that's never been my intention. I'm going by the numbers, and with more hardware out there (maybe not stand-alone, but still the potential for penetration is there, and PS3 will soon hit it's stride with the exclusives finally dropping), greater studio/manufacturer support, a growing trend for retailers towards Blu, a 2:1 software lead, and soon-to-be superior capabilities (50GB discs, HD PiP, Internet Connectivity, Online Games), on top of the format still offerring 1080p video and lossless sound, I think it's rather easy to see why people support Blu-Ray.

Sorry this went on so long, and I'm sorry if this sounds like Blu propaganda to some of you, I just wanted to make my case, as someone who bought HD-DVD first, continues to use both formats, and basically just wants one format to take over before we have to have downloadable media shoved down our throats.

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

Is Bill Hunt your brother?

You mean the venturer and onkyo player announcements weren't new?

I think he is right, Onkyo has announced that player early this year and it was extensively discussed in the Onkyo AVR anticipation thread, the Venturer has been around for quite a while now too.

WARNING: Please read this with an open mind, void of fanboyism

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray. To me, and I've been a neutral guy since the beginning, both formats offer me the same exact experience. I get wonderful 1080p transfers from both, I get lossless sound from both. The two things thus far that I get on HD-DVD that I can't on Blu-Ray (yet...) is PiP and Internet Connectivity (useless so far), but these will be available on the blu side very soon, including the pointless but novel idea of HD-in-HD PiP. Heck, Buena Vista and Fox are even planning multiplayer online games for next year, so the interactivity is coming.

My overall neutral past aside, and I know this will draw negative responses, I generally support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. It is nothing technical, as HD-DVD is insanely capable and has really great hardware prices, but I simply don't like supporting the red side, and generally only buy their discs if they are exclusives, mainly just Universal new release combos. Why? Every purchase only prolongs the format war. If industry trends, studio/manufacturer/retailer support, and the sales lead continue the way they are, HD-DVD has the lesser chance of survival. The only reason I occasionally buy red discs anymore is because should it disapear, I can still watch my Universal and Warner combos on future players.

Secondly, do you guys ever think either of these formats will penetrate the general public while the other survives? There is far too much confusion out there, and in the mind of J6P it's simply far easier to continue buying the cheaper DVD. And for those of you who think it doesn't matter, and that as long as you can watch your movies it's ok, think about this: What is the only way software will go down in price? The simple answer is not until there are enough people buying the movies to generate a similar profit for distributors at a lower cost. In my mind, paying 28 bucks (the cheapest price around, via Amazon) for Paramount and Fox discs is just absurd, and I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to pay it anymore.

Please don't think me a fanboy, because that's never been my intention. I'm going by the numbers, and with more hardware out there (maybe not stand-alone, but still the potential for penetration is there, and PS3 will soon hit it's stride with the exclusives finally dropping), greater studio/manufacturer support, a growing trend for retailers towards Blu, a 2:1 software lead, and soon-to-be superior capabilities (50GB discs, HD PiP, Internet Connectivity, Online Games), on top of the format still offerring 1080p video and lossless sound, I think it's rather easy to see why people support Blu-Ray.

Sorry this went on so long, and I'm sorry if this sounds like Blu propaganda to some of you, I just wanted to make my case, as someone who bought HD-DVD first, continues to use both formats, and basically just wants one format to take over before we have to have downloadable media shoved down our throats.

I can see what you mean about not liking hostility. I used to be a Blu Ray fan about a year and a half ago. I chose to go with HD DVD because I'm a big Fair use fan and saw HD DVD having less restrictions (plus one look at how they set up AACS it was obvious that one was going down), no BD+ and no Watermarking. I chose based on the "freedom" argument. I have nothing against Blu Ray technically speaking. Both formats put out a wonderful picture. I am looking at getting a used BD player soon for a decent price so I've been perusing the BD side of AVS, I absolutely hate going in there because it seems that the arrogance and hatred in that side just hangs like a foul smelling cloud. I know we have our share of "ahem" zealots on the HD DVD side but as a general practice the HD DVD side of the fence is very inclusive of both formats. The BD side is filled with pure livid hatred of HD "DUD" and sneer at anyone who mentions HD DVD as being a viable format. Hell just go over to blu-ray.com and be prepared to be assaulted by the most violent hatred against HD DVD known to man. I'm sorry, but I see it the opposite of you. I gladly buy HD DVD as much as possible due to the fact that the BD crowd is over run with PS3 133t h@ckzorz who are now experts at the A/V world and have the maturity of a spoiled 2 year old.

WARNING: Please read this with an open mind, void of fanboyism

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray. To me, and I've been a neutral guy since the beginning, both formats offer me the same exact experience. I get wonderful 1080p transfers from both, I get lossless sound from both. The two things thus far that I get on HD-DVD that I can't on Blu-Ray (yet...) is PiP and Internet Connectivity (useless so far), but these will be available on the blu side very soon, including the pointless but novel idea of HD-in-HD PiP. Heck, Buena Vista and Fox are even planning multiplayer online games for next year, so the interactivity is coming.

My overall neutral past aside, and I know this will draw negative responses, I generally support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. It is nothing technical, as HD-DVD is insanely capable and has really great hardware prices, but I simply don't like supporting the red side, and generally only buy their discs if they are exclusives, mainly just Universal new release combos. Why? Every purchase only prolongs the format war. If industry trends, studio/manufacturer/retailer support, and the sales lead continue the way they are, HD-DVD has the lesser chance of survival. The only reason I occasionally buy red discs anymore is because should it disapear, I can still watch my Universal and Warner combos on future players.

Secondly, do you guys ever think either of these formats will penetrate the general public while the other survives? There is far too much confusion out there, and in the mind of J6P it's simply far easier to continue buying the cheaper DVD. And for those of you who think it doesn't matter, and that as long as you can watch your movies it's ok, think about this: What is the only way software will go down in price? The simple answer is not until there are enough people buying the movies to generate a similar profit for distributors at a lower cost. In my mind, paying 28 bucks (the cheapest price around, via Amazon) for Paramount and Fox discs is just absurd, and I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to pay it anymore.

Please don't think me a fanboy, because that's never been my intention. I'm going by the numbers, and with more hardware out there (maybe not stand-alone, but still the potential for penetration is there, and PS3 will soon hit it's stride with the exclusives finally dropping), greater studio/manufacturer support, a growing trend for retailers towards Blu, a 2:1 software lead, and soon-to-be superior capabilities (50GB discs, HD PiP, Internet Connectivity, Online Games), on top of the format still offerring 1080p video and lossless sound, I think it's rather easy to see why people support Blu-Ray.

Sorry this went on so long, and I'm sorry if this sounds like Blu propaganda to some of you, I just wanted to make my case, as someone who bought HD-DVD first, continues to use both formats, and basically just wants one format to take over before we have to have downloadable media shoved down our throats.
this is funny,who said (hd must die).both side can live together.but blu ray dont think that.wonder who hate the other side more :rolleyes:. not me buy what ever you want but dont said bs.btw people are not that stupid they will see the difference bleu or red how are it is?:)

WARNING: Please read this with an open mind, void of fanboyism

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray. To me, and I've been a neutral guy since the beginning, both formats offer me the same exact experience. I get wonderful 1080p transfers from both, I get lossless sound from both. The two things thus far that I get on HD-DVD that I can't on Blu-Ray (yet...) is PiP and Internet Connectivity (useless so far), but these will be available on the blu side very soon, including the pointless but novel idea of HD-in-HD PiP. Heck, Buena Vista and Fox are even planning multiplayer online games for next year, so the interactivity is coming.

My overall neutral past aside, and I know this will draw negative responses, I generally support Blu-Ray over HD-DVD. It is nothing technical, as HD-DVD is insanely capable and has really great hardware prices, but I simply don't like supporting the red side, and generally only buy their discs if they are exclusives, mainly just Universal new release combos. Why? Every purchase only prolongs the format war. If industry trends, studio/manufacturer/retailer support, and the sales lead continue the way they are, HD-DVD has the lesser chance of survival. The only reason I occasionally buy red discs anymore is because should it disapear, I can still watch my Universal and Warner combos on future players.

Secondly, do you guys ever think either of these formats will penetrate the general public while the other survives? There is far too much confusion out there, and in the mind of J6P it's simply far easier to continue buying the cheaper DVD. And for those of you who think it doesn't matter, and that as long as you can watch your movies it's ok, think about this: What is the only way software will go down in price? The simple answer is not until there are enough people buying the movies to generate a similar profit for distributors at a lower cost. In my mind, paying 28 bucks (the cheapest price around, via Amazon) for Paramount and Fox discs is just absurd, and I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to pay it anymore.

Please don't think me a fanboy, because that's never been my intention. I'm going by the numbers, and with more hardware out there (maybe not stand-alone, but still the potential for penetration is there, and PS3 will soon hit it's stride with the exclusives finally dropping), greater studio/manufacturer support, a growing trend for retailers towards Blu, a 2:1 software lead, and soon-to-be superior capabilities (50GB discs, HD PiP, Internet Connectivity, Online Games), on top of the format still offerring 1080p video and lossless sound, I think it's rather easy to see why people support Blu-Ray.

Sorry this went on so long, and I'm sorry if this sounds like Blu propaganda to some of you, I just wanted to make my case, as someone who bought HD-DVD first, continues to use both formats, and basically just wants one format to take over before we have to have downloadable media shoved down our throats.
this is funny,who said (hd must die).both side can live together.but blu ray dont think that.wonder who hate the other side more :rolleyes:. not me buy what ever you want but dont said bs.btw people are not that stupid they will see the difference bleu or red how are it is?:)

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray.
I see no reason for hostility but being objective means looking at things without bias - tough to do.

I'm going by the numbers, and with more hardware out there (maybe not stand-alone, but still the potential for penetration is there, and PS3 will soon hit it's stride with the exclusives finally dropping)
Really depends on the perspective, more numbers when considering it as a movie player - as a game console it has small numbers. That's the thing with consoles "it will....." doesn't cut it. Comparisons to it's competitor aren't valid. If you're the only player on the market you have time to "get it together" - when you're jumping into a market you don't. And in this race the also ran moniker is easy to aquire & very hard to shake. The PS3 has this moniker & at this point I can't see it losing it. There is nothing on the table that the competitor can't match....UT III? More than matched by Valve & the Halo franchise. MGS4 & KillZone (maybe) are after the holidays = it's fate will be sealed by then. Ancedotal evidence - two kids are die hard PS fans. They played some SNES but went right to PS. Laughed @ & wouldn't touch an Xbox 1 - both of them are now of the opinion "stick a fork in it, it's done".

What does this mean for HDM? The BD flag bearer is hurting & may never achieve the dominant status Sony promised. Even if it were to sell many units over the next few years it might be too late - all the while HD DVD is quietly (or not so) selling SA players & gaining acceptance as the HDM format.

The flag bearer is stillborn, the only option for BDA at this point is to compete for SA sales = they must do it on price. This option will PO all the other BDA members who were promised profits from slow price drops = not good news.

and the Paramounted thing wasn't desperate?
That's simple business, like buying Disney. Spewing FUD through statements is desperation. Like announcing a new price point in a futile effort to shift the spotlight from the juggernaut that is Halo.

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said
And there we have it, the determining factor :D Having heard of it doesn't mean the public is willing to buy it.

One of the unspoken conditions for any CE company to maunfacture Blu-ray products is the requirement they set up a secret P.T. Barnum department. That department is responsible for recruiting new consumers into the Blu-ray fold. The BDA's mandatory contractual language covering the P.T. Barnum requirement is titled: "There's a sucker born every minute!"

This easily explains any increase in Blu fanboyism. :D

Mark

Barnum never said "There's a sucker born every minute," but that is a common misconception. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute

Yes, I support BD. I thought they had everything lining up to win this HDM war. But now I don't see how either BD or HD DVD can win against standard dvd. I want to enjoy high def movies from all studios, so I am now format neutral. IMHO (and everybody's opinions are different), there are a lot of great movies on the BD side and HD DVD side, but more of MY favorites are on the BD side. If I had to pick only 1, it would be BD. I have chosen both because I don't want to miss out on the HD DVD exclusives.

Well, I went neutral via the PS3 route a few weeks ago so I guess that I contributed to the BD gaining support group". But, I couldnt help it. The reasons are several:

- There are titles on BD that I want in HD and I have NO way to get them on HD DVD, even through importing.

- Speaking of importing, its a GREAT way to add a few titles that you want but it gets prohibitively expensive if you go to that "well" too often.

- The PS3 does a lot more than just play games and movies, its an impresive machine that I used to pooh-pooh quite a bit. My mistake.

- I was tired of worrying about what studio was gonna do what and when. I enjoy HD movies and the only way to get them ALL, at least for a while is to be neutral.

Well, I went neutral via the PS3 route a few weeks ago so I guess that I contributed to the BD gaining support group". But, I couldnt help it. The reasons are several:

- There are titles on BD that I want in HD and I have NO way to get them on HD DVD, even through importing.

- Speaking of importing, its a GREAT way to add a few titles that you want but it gets prohibitively expensive if you go to that "well" too often.

- The PS3 does a lot more than just play games and movies, its an impresive machine that I used to pooh-pooh quite a bit. My mistake.

- I was tired of worrying about what studio was gonna do what and when. I enjoy HD movies and the only way to get them ALL, at least for a while is to be neutral.

cheers, that's exactly what I'm doing.

PS3? Too busy playing Halo 3 and watching Matrix on my XA2.

PS3? Too busy playing Halo 3 and watching Matrix on my XA2.

Freekin' hilarious! I am with you. My wife has been an Xbox widow for the last two days.

I truly do not understand HD-DVD fan hostility towards Blu-Ray.

It's pretty simple and it's true on both sides of the fence - the hostility is due to the fact that, for whatever reason, some people are deciding to only invest in one format and have therefore "placed their bets" and will do/say anything to convince themselves and others that their side will win. That's all it comes down to.

As a kid, I did the same thing with video game consoles. The Super Nintendo sucked because I already owned a Sega Genesis and couldn't afford to buy another console (of course, I later caved in and got a Super NES... then barely touched the Genesis again).

I've said it before, but the whole hostility in these forums is geared towards STORAGE mediums. Spec-wise, nobody can argue that Blu-Ray has inferior storage capacity. The best anyone can say is "We don't need more storage".
Also, nobody can argue that BD-J isn't ready, yet IME worked out of the gate.

But, when it comes down to what's most important - PQ and AQ - the format is irrelevant. Again, these are STORAGE mediums. What gets put ON these discs has anothing to do with the format.

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

One word -- money. Either money directly paid by BD or Sony, or a perception that BluRay has 2:1 support.

We can't underestimate the effect of BluRay FUD. 2:1 sofware advantage, 5:1 hardware advantage (including PS3), more exclusive studios -- all this has an effect. My Jumbo Video rents both formats. I always see more HD DVDs rented out, but they just doubled the BluRay side because of 2:1 FUD. If there is supposed to be 2:1 support, they need to to have 2:1 shelf space, right? If all the retailers do that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. BluRay has 2:1 so its given more priority, and then it sells more because its given priority, etc.

I have no problem buying HD DVDs now after the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement. It isn't going to take a single studio defection to kill HD DVD like it could before. Also, HDDVD has momentum. I'm convinced I'll still be able to play back my colleciton in the future, no matter what format eventually wins.

But make no mistake, HD DVD has a huge marketing campaign ahead of them. They came close to losing the PR war before the Paramount switch. Only huge sales of cheap players will turn the tide. If they don't get it, I can't say BR will immediately win, but BR will have a ability to win. Of course, BD has tripped over its own feet on everything except PR until now.

So, HDDVD -- those Venturer players better be in every chain store. If they don't get stocked by the big boys, they might as well not exist.

The store I bought a new panel at last week told me they sold more BluRay than HD, despite the price difference, because its the format in the PS3. PR can even overcome a price disadvantage! HDDVD is not going to win unless they have price, visibility, and advertising.

It all comes down to the PS3 factor aside from the marketing.

Wow. This thread is about 10 months late. Things in fact have changed makedly since then to the detriment of blu ray including the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement. Stop the retro posts and read a little before starting threads like this.

Aside from the Paramount news there is nothing new to HD DVD.

How about the adoption of TL51? If in fact it can be made to work on all existing players, this is huge. From a technical standpoint, the only real advantage left to BD is bitrate. And if 1.5x speed is possible even that goes away. However, this is all moot for now in that the sides have been drawn, the specs are complete, there probably will not be any major changes for any camp that will make it to market before the end of the year. Let the holiday shopping season begin! This is gonna be interesting.

Well, I went neutral via the PS3 route a few weeks ago so I guess that I contributed to the BD gaining support group". But, I couldnt help it. The reasons are several:

- There are titles on BD that I want in HD and I have NO way to get them on HD DVD, even through importing.

- Speaking of importing, its a GREAT way to add a few titles that you want but it gets prohibitively expensive if you go to that "well" too often.

- The PS3 does a lot more than just play games and movies, its an impresive machine that I used to pooh-pooh quite a bit. My mistake.

- I was tired of worrying about what studio was gonna do what and when. I enjoy HD movies and the only way to get them ALL, at least for a while is to be neutral.
Same here, the war is over in my house.

PS3? Too busy playing Halo 3 and watching Matrix on my XA2.
I'm also enjoying Halo 3 on my 360 as well, you know it is possible to own more then one gaming console.

Hd-dvd just seems to release alot of films that really don't showcase the whole hi-def argument..for instance, what would catch your eye quicker if you were walking through your favorite electronic store? A dumb, but special effects driven film...which bluray seem's to have more of because of the studio support they possess, or the typical universal studio's comedy film, which they seem to release every other week.

All humor and smartassness aside, BD seems so heavily supported even more so since Paramount moved to HD-DVD because Sony has scrammbled for a counter. Sony can attempt what they want, but come holiday season when the cheap players are released, all of us HD-DVD supporters will forget we even had this conversation.

And of course, as previously posted, it has a lot to do with the PS3. PS3 sales aren't great, but since each one sold is a sold BD player, it adds up. Why anyone would waste their money on it, I have no clue.

Hd-dvd just seems to release alot of films that really don't showcase the whole hi-def argument..for instance, what would catch your eye quicker if you were walking through your favorite electronic store? A dumb, but special effects driven film...which bluray seem's to have more of because of the studio support they possess, or the typical universal studio's comedy film, which they seem to release every other week.

Two words...King...Kong.

Two words...King...Kong.
One word....Serenity....

One word....Serenity....

I up that to four words

The Chronicles of Riddick..... :D

I think it's definitely about marketing. People I know who are "tech" type people (but are casual movie watchers) tend to go with numbers. They hear 50 GB vs 30 GB. They tend to also think of it in terms of computers as far as backing up data. They see 1 HD DVD player manufacturer and 10 different blu-ray companies. Everyone heard the Blockbuster announcement as well

Finally one of the biggest misunderstandings is this: Some of them think HD DVD uses old technology and is already obsolete. This is obviously confused with the manufacturing process. Tech people tend to shun stuff when they feel it is bogged down by the need for legacy support. Obviously this is all misinformation or misunderstanding but it doesn't help.

When I say "tech" people, i mean people who are fairly up to date with consumer electronics and typically work with computers (software development, hardware development). The thing is, most of them are not "movie" watchers, so they have no problem waiting for format war to end.

I'd say tech enthusiasts as opposed to tech people. Nobody I know of in the IT field would choose blu-ray. When they view electronics, their first thought is, will I have any trouble with it. To them, going blu-ray would be like moving your enterprise customers to Vista the day it was released.

To be honest, I don't see much support for either format. Every store I go into has them both on the shelves in very equal numbers. I have a lot of geek buddies and I'm still the only one that has a player of either format. Obviously it's a huge hot topic here at AVS, but out in the real world, people just don't care about either format yet.

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

How is it that the mods allow threads like this to stay open.

Content-less, negative threads like this obviously only serve one purpose, and that is the spread of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Get with it mods!

Which cave do you tribe.

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

I know what you mean. Mine called me up after the Paramount announcement and asked if I knew that blu-ray was going away.

I then explained to her that no, blu-ray is not going away, it's just becoming a niche in a niche market.

Video/Audio Quality.

I know what you mean. If the manufacturers that currently make blu-ray players start making HD DVD players that have more features and same Video/Audio quality, they'll never be able to unload the over priced blu-ray players they have in stock.

One word....Serenity....

+1

I know what you mean. If the manufacturers that currently make blu-ray players start making HD DVD players that have more features and same Video/Audio quality, they'll never be able to unload the over priced blu-ray players they have in stock.


+1

Also a few of those 'exclusive' manufacturers are now neutral. What is that saying?

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

You are deceiving yourself if you think that HD DVD has the advantage. HD DVD will have the advantage if all BD only studios decide to publish on both and player prices drop below $100.

Most intelligent consumers (meaning nonhobbyists) are opting out of either until there is a clear winner. And the way it is going it looks like that may never happen. Microsoft mission accomplished.

+1

Also a few of those 'exclusive' manufacturers are now neutral. What is that saying?


A few want to build high priced combo units because they know there are some willing to pay a high price to hedge their bets. It is still cheaper to buy a PS3 and a A2/A3.

LG has not sold high numbers of its HD DVD (crippled implementation)/BD combo. And remember combo players did not save SACD or DVD-A.

I'd say tech enthusiasts as opposed to tech people. Nobody I know of in the IT field would choose blu-ray. When they view electronics, their first thought is, will I have any trouble with it. To them, going blu-ray would be like moving your enterprise customers to Vista the day it was released.

You must be talking about those "IT" people who don't understand terms like "limited bandwidth" and "reduced capacity".

The two things thus far that I get on HD-DVD that I can't on Blu-Ray (yet...) is PiP and Internet Connectivity (useless so far), but these will be available on the blu side very soon.

You say BD is getting PiP and IC very soon? Haven't you heard the news? The only two players from Denon, (MSRP $1999.99 each), have both been delayed until 2008. The other news is that not one single manufacturer has announced an upgrade path, including Sony itself for existing players.

If your understanding of "very soon" is sometime in 2008 with a $2,000 player; that's nice. Meanwhile I will be enjoying this features as I have since last year, while you wait and it didn't cost me more than $400 to do it :D

I up that to four words

The Chronicles of Riddick..... :D

And I to The Matrix ;)

I up that to four words

The Chronicles of Riddick..... :D
I bring that back down to one word

Transformers.... :D

My mom has heard of Bluray but not heard of HD DVD....nuff said

Wow, a one person poll. Sorry, not exactly scientific there. Nuff said. :)

Acer joined recently:

http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/090607_hddvd_acer.pdf

Okay not earth shattering like Paramount but if it had joined Blu-ray how many 'blu-ray roolz' threads would you see?

Acer is the No 1 laptop brand in Europe.

You must be talking about those "IT" people who don't understand terms like "limited bandwidth" and "reduced capacity".

Right, because Blu-ray has unlimited bandwidth :rolleyes:

The point is that Blu-ray's bandwidth is UNNECESSARILY high.

On HD DVD, movies like the Matrix have 1080p video, 5-star picture quality, Lossless audio, IME w/ Pip, and multiple audio tracks.

So if we can get 5 star video, 5 star audio, and all the special features imaginable on HD DVD's "limited bandwidth" and "reduced capacity", what more is NEEDED?

Let's not forget that about half of Blu-ray discs are still 25GB, and many more use MPEG2. Now, with MPEG2, yes, you need massive bandwidth...but HD DVD virtually always uses MPEG4 or VC-1, so that's not a problem. Large bandwidth and capacity is a band-aid for Blu-ray, and is unnecessary when advanced audio and video codecs are used. Sounds great on paper, doesn't matter in reality.

Trent

Because they sell more discs. More discs = more money. It's not that deep of a subject. Companies go where the money is.

Wow, a one person poll. Sorry, not exactly scientific there. Nuff said. :)Actually I had a similar experience with my Dad: He just bought a new XBox for my younger brother, and I was trying to convince him to get the 360 add-on for HD DVD. He replied, "No, we don't want Blue Ray". :eek:

.......a long way to go to educate J6P.

Because they sell more discs. More discs = more money. It's not that deep of a subject. Companies go where the money is.

On the contrary, it's an incredibly deep and complex subject. You're ignoring basic things like:

1) HD DVD discs are less expensive to build
2) Blu-ray disc yields are painfully low

Depending on the disc replicator used, a company may have to press three discs to get one working one. HD DVD yields are better than 90%, and Blu-ray yields are much poorer.

Cost of goods has a direct impact on profitability, and Blu-ray has a much higher cost of goods than HD DVD. You're ignoring this point in your comment.


Before anyone asks, reading the HD DVD/Blu-ray "Insider" threads will provide you with this information.

Now, with MPEG2, yes, you need massive bandwidth...but HD DVD virtually always uses MPEG4 or VC-1, so that's not a problem. Large bandwidth and capacity is a band-aid for Blu-ray, and is unnecessary when advanced audio and video codecs are used. Sounds great on paper, doesn't matter in reality.

Quoted for truth.

Because they sell more discs. More discs = more money. It's not that deep of a subject. Companies go where the money is.

The money is with DVD. :p Let's not get ahead or ourselves here. ;)

The money is with DVD. :p Let's not get ahead or ourselves here. ;)

Haha, very true!

;)Jerk. :P

llll


That'll be Mr. Jerk to you Baron von Trollenstein.

"H'ow to speak San Franciscan". C'mon Baseketball in HD!

I digress.

I appreciate your perspective, misguided as I may believe it to be.

You have apparently taken the blue pill. In the past, I myself have taken the purple pill (reference Owsley and Jimi), and therefore sympathize with your confusion. We can only hope for for your personal growth to progress to the point where you wake to the truth, and spring yourself free from the pedantic corporate inspired machinations that currently guide your opinion and decisions.

Cheers my friend!

I'm sorry, what's this thread about again???

Right, because Blu-ray has unlimited bandwidth :rolleyes:

The point is that Blu-ray's bandwidth is UNNECESSARILY high.

On HD DVD, movies like the Matrix have 1080p video, 5-star picture quality, Lossless audio, IME w/ Pip, and multiple audio tracks.

So if we can get 5 star video, 5 star audio, and all the special features imaginable on HD DVD's "limited bandwidth" and "reduced capacity", what more is NEEDED?

Did we have this conversation 10-12 years ago when you were still recommending Cat3/4 cable because 10Mbps was all you need?

You've already seen the best HD-DVD has to offer and blu still outsells HD-DVD titles 2 to 1 when they have a choice of format. When studios start utilizing all there is to blu there won't be any doubt which is the better format...

all i have to say is that if you want the best you have to pay a bit more for it. it is like a prossor you can get eather get a slower 2.2GHz(hd dvd) or you can get a 3.0GHz dual core(Blu-ray) the faster prossor cost a bit more but in time they will cost allmost the same.

It might be the excitement of having something new, but since I went neutral with a PS3 a few weeks ago, Blu-ray is definitely more "exciting" to me. There are many upcoming BD releases I'm looking forward to and really only one HD DVD exclusive, The Bourne Ultimatum. That's not to say I'm going to abandon HD DVD, but right now Blu-ray has more to offer IMO.

Because they sell more discs. More discs = more money. It's not that deep of a subject. Companies go where the money is.
Companies go where the profit is. More discs does not necessarily equal more profit. It all depends on the margins for each kind of disc. Supposedly HD DVD has better margins than Blu-ray, though I've never seen any official numbers.

I really wanted to see/hear Q4 movie releases announcements. It is almost Q4 and we are still very dry. They are steaming on the other side.

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

What you SHOULD be considering here is the fact the HD DVD continues to exist IN SPITE of the overwhelming BD support. They have bigger disks, more hardware available, Blockbuster, Target, most of the studios and good movies... etc, and they STILL can't knock HD DVD out of the ring. BD has survived on nothing but alternate support, while HD DVD has survived on nothing much more than itself. With the kind of support that BD has had, you would have figured this to be over before it even got started....WRONG.

The fact that HD DVD has survived to this point is nothing short of outstanding, and is a CLEAR indicator that HD DVD may just take the cake in the end.

Without Paramount HD DVD could have been dead by Christmas. Paramount should have already boosted more support for HD DVD, instead it just triggered more BD support. Barely surviving is the word.

Fox and MGM have awaken because of the Paramount story.

Fox and MGM have awaken because of the Paramount story.

Yeah but then hit the snooze button and cancelled/delayed a bunch of titles and still have a lot of their good offerings on hold. Its quite frustrating and since Ive gone neutral(PS3 80gb) I can see that these are slowest studios as far as releasing stuff.

Oh well... :rolleyes:

Without Paramount HD DVD could have been dead by Christmas. Paramount should have already boosted more support for HD DVD, instead it just triggered more BD support. Barely surviving is the word.


Barely surviving? gimme a break!

In case you missed it, appears to be some HDDVD momentum.

Announcing 10, cancel 2, put 5 on hold is still better than announcing 1 or 0. BTW I have gone from HD DVD only to buying both.

Momentum ?

Do you remember when Sony announced that the BD standalone player sales is more than the HDDVD player sales for a specific period. That period mentioned coincide to the Sony DB player price reduction and the Paramount annoucement. Toshiba only rebutted with a YTD sales and not the period Sony was claiming. This is along with our rejoicing that the A2 is #1 in the Amazon sales.

Now tell me the momentum.

Without Paramount HD DVD could have been dead by Christmas. Paramount should have already boosted more support for HD DVD, instead it just triggered more BD support. Barely surviving is the word.

Well first... people keep saying HD DVD "would have been dead by Christmas" and I don't buy that at all. BOTH sides have invested HUGE amounts of money into this and if you think either one is going to throw the towel in because one is a million or 2 disks ahead... you're crazy. If one was a couple million disks ahead and there only a handful of potential customers left then for sure the ball game is over. But the untapped market is absolutely STUNNING in terms of size and anything is still possible with that many potential customers at the doorstep. Just to give you an idea... TOTAL HD sales for the fist half 2007 barely surpassed that of VHS sales. Meanwhile, the new Pirates of the Caribbean in dvd sold 5 MILLION IN THE FIRST 24 HOURS. With that potential customer base, one team could be 3, 4 or even 5 million ahead and it would still be a drop in the bucket and anybody's ballgame.

And as far as "barely surviving" is concerned... that's TOTAL rubbish! So much so that Forrester Research is doing a bit of back-pedaling. They thought BD was a sure thing.... NOW... they're not so confident in their belief anymore.

The fact is that BD has only the opportunity to LOSE support, while HD DVD hasn't got much to lose in the first place... there aren't too many other ways that this can play out. Either BD holds on to the support it's got... AND... drop prices..... or it loses.

Almost everyday you read a group/company expressing their support for the BD camp, more and more BD hardware is announced.

If we are gaining the advantage, why are we not getting more support.

There has never been an HD DVD advantage over the BD camp.

Forrester Research is the company that said my (former) company (a start in the Silicon valley) was doing well. We closed 4 months after.

Honestly, none of the blu-ray so-called "momentum" announcements are worth anything.

Blockbuster? - Big deal, you can still rent online, and most people don't even know what high-definition is right now (as shown in the depressing Best Buy poll that was just released).

Target - See above. Plus they still sell HD DVDs and the 360 add-on.

The only announcement this whole year that has done anything to cause any real shift of momentum is the Paramount announcement. Blu-ray fanboys know it and are bitter because of it.

However, I will agree with the notion that HD DVD was teetering on the brink of going down the tubes before the announcement. The 300 blu-ray/HD DVD sales split was a decent indicator of what the future would hold.

But none of that matters now, both formats are here to stay, period.

There has never been an HD DVD advantage over the BD camp.

Yes... in fact there has and there is... the 3x dvd, modems, dual video decoders, memory...etc

Twice the hardware.... for 1/2 the price.

Forrester Research is the company that said my (former) company (a start in the Silicon valley) was doing well. We closed 4 months after.

And that just shows you how wrong they can be. These are the guys that said Blu Ray was a sure winner!

.

However, I will agree with the notion that HD DVD was teetering on the brink of going down the tubes before the announcement. The 300 blu-ray/HD DVD sales split was a decent indicator of what the future would hold.


I disagree.
There is no doubt that HD DVD had problems and if they didn't do something SOON, then they really would have been "teetering"... and of course they did do something.

when out shopping recently i found after waiting with my teenage son,for halo 3 i found the store gamestation had 6 shelve's neat and tidy of blu and 2 of hd dvd all stacked untidly not good.

some electrical retail store's sale's assistant's only try to sell blu-ray with the ps3 as a player because it's cheaper than a blu player walmart(asda here in the uk) sell and stock more blu and the choice from hd dvd is poor.
blockbuster uk i don't bother with it just at present seem's that hd dvd is non exsistant so therefore i emailed toshiba because here in the uk they are now claimimg blu-ray is out selling hd dvd by 4-1.
so here is that email from toshiba.

Dear sir


Thank you for your email.


First of all, please accept our apologies if you feel you have received a slow response to your original enquiry. As a Toshiba customer we clearly value your feedback, and we apologise unreservedly if you feel in any way undervalued – rest assured, that’s absolutely not the case.


However, although we value your custom, it isn’t possible for us to fully answer your questions for a number of reasons. Legally, what we can say about the price of our products is severely limited since, by law, prices are set by the individual retailer and not by the manufacturer. As I’m sure you can understand, details regarding all promotional and advertising activity remain confidential until officially released into the public domain via our usual channels of communication.


With regards to the available stock of HD DVD players, there is already an entire range of Toshiba models – including the HD-E1, the HD-EP10 and the HD-XE1 – already available, with the recently announced HD-EP30 and HD-EP35 soon to follow. This provides an extensive array of choice for all HD DVD enthusiasts, and, while we have promoted these players with software in the past, I’m afraid we’re unable to confirm any promotional plans at the moment.


All details regarding Toshiba promotions are available via www.toshiba.co.uk, so we would urge you to refer to the website when looking for any information. However we would like to thank you for your support of both Toshiba and the HD DVD format – it’s clear to us that your obviously very passionate about both, and we hope that continues to be the case.


Thanks for your time, Mr. Walters. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to raise them and we’ll be happy to help.


Best regards,


Toshiba UK Customer Support Centre

Momentum ?

Do you remember when Sony announced that the BD standalone player sales is more than the HDDVD player sales for a specific period. That period mentioned coincide to the Sony DB player price reduction and the Paramount annoucement. Toshiba only rebutted with a YTD sales and not the period Sony was claiming. This is along with our rejoicing that the A2 is #1 in the Amazon sales.

Now tell me the momentum.

Remember, HD-DVD supporters live in this alternate universe in which amazon rankings mean everything and Nielsen charts mean nothing.

False! Toshiba said HD DVD outsold BD every month but 1 that data was available for. That is as clear as it gets....1 out of 18 months, BD standalone players were better!

Talk about BD BS on top of BS!

False! Toshiba said HD DVD outsold BD every month but 1 that data was available for. That is as clear as it gets....1 out of 18 months, BD standalone players were better!

Talk about BD BS on top of BS!But if BD didn't have BS, what would be left...yup, not much...;)

Even readers of Home Media Magazine are chiming in:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom093007/index.php?startpage=16

i think bd has no chance of ever replacing dvd.

people in general are happy with dvd. how will they ever justify the cost of completely replacing the dvd production lines?

bd is in a catch 22 ... they cannot stop making dvd and just make bd instead until almost all the homes have a bd player. but, as long as people are happy with dvd they will just keep buying it. how long will it take to get bd players in every home?

hd dvd does not have that problem. they can upgrade existing dvd production lines without completely replacing then. also, they can still produce dvd on hd dvd production lines. with combo/twin disks they can just drop dvd when the business model makes sense, they don't need to have hd dvd players in every home.

dvd has completely run out of steam. the studios need a next gen platform to put some life back into the industry. why should they wait a decade for bd to be ready to replace dvd? if they were all backing hd dvd, then they could work out the final issues (fix combos, etc.) and phase out dvd based on any schedule that makes sense for the studios.

Video/Audio Quality.

LOL. Good one, excepted it oozes of fanboyism.

Money talks. That's the only reason. BR was never about satisfying customers, it was always about how to make more money out of them.

Remember, HD-DVD supporters live in this alternate universe in which amazon rankings mean everything and Nielsen charts mean nothing.

And last time I checked Nielsen numbers didn't show 1 iota of change for SI sales ratio... Looks like PS3 owners live in this alternate universe in which close to 3 millions game consoles plus a few 100k players can't eradicate 500,000 (at best) HD DVD players' software sales...

And that just shows you how wrong they can be. These are the guys that said Blu Ray was a sure winner!

I've said it before, these so-called analysts couldn't predict my grandma's age next year to save their life...

And last time I checked Nielsen numbers didn't show 1 iota of change for SI sales ratio... Looks like PS3 owners live in this alternate universe in which close to 3 millions game consoles plus a few 100k players can't eradicate 500,000 (at best) HD DVD players' software sales...

That's what I was referring to. All the talk about the increase in HD-DVD hardware sales along with the paramount deflection and the ratio is STILL the same.

They have news about the upcoming Samsung 2400 cancellation. See the BD players area.

Bingo.

I JUST got back from Worst Buy, and I was checking things out when I saw a guy looking at the Sony 300 player. I struck up a conversation with him and he came across as the poster boy for J6P. I'm not slighting the guy in the least or J6P, but the things he was saying painted the picture quite clear on how the average person views this stuff. He said he "had to have da Blu-Ray for one of my HDMI jacks". I asked him if he was interested in HD DVD, and he said he already "had a Sony HD and a Panasonic HD, and wanted to add da Blu-Ray". I made a small attempt to inform him of the difference in upconvert and HD DVD, but he said that didn't matter because "da Blu-Ray is HD too". I couldn't win, so I went about my business and he bought the player anyway.

I never tried to steer him away from buying it, I just wanted to see what was making him want to buy one over the other.

Marketing here, plain and simple. All he knew was the buzzword, and that is what he needed.


I have also observed the same sort of thing at BestBuy and Circuit City when people are looking at the Blu-ray demo running on the endcaps.

It's not that HD DVD isn't as good as Blu-ray but the Sony Blu-ray and Samsung Blu-ray endcaps are setup/look great compared to the Toshiba endcaps I've seen at BestBuy, Circuit City, Frys and Sears.(These stores I've visited are in a 50 mile radius and the PQ is consistent on the endcaps.)

Sony and Samsung match their endcaps with decent HDTV's and the Toshiba LCD just looks dull and not as vibrant as the Blu-ray endcaps.

You can't convince J6P that the HD DVD PQ can be better or as good a Blu-ray if the store set it up was better.
What they observe/assume is that they can take the blu-ray player home and should be able to get the same PQ with a PnP installation.

I definitely didn't rely on the Toshiba endcap demo to determine my purchase but did some research, which J6P won't be doing anytime soon.

I really believe that Toshiba needs to step up and use a better HDTV/setup on their endcaps to display the maximum/best PQ to match the Sony and Samsung endcaps.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself. I bought into HD-DVD first for several reasons (VC1 over mpeg2, etc), but mainly because of the initial lower price (under $400) for an HD-A1. Since the initial Honeymoon, I went neutral when I was able to get a PS3-60 for about the same price with PS2 trade-in and other discounts. IMHO, the PS3 blows away the A1. With all features being equal (mpeg4, features, audio, etc.), I choose to purchase BD over HD-DVD because of the better player and coating. I also apply the same logic when renting from Netflix, maybe more so because of the coating. In my small way, I guess that makes me look like a BD supporter when they count the media sales or rentals.

I still support HD-DVD too and don't really care if both formats stick around for the long haul. I want the best content to play in my HT and won't let studio politics stand in my way. However, my more recent purchases certainly lean towards BD. And as long as the A1 works, I don't see rushing out to upgrade that player to counter the PS3. Life is too short to be in only one camp, but BD does have certain advantages for me.

Hastings Entertainment has significantly expanded Blu-ray Disc rental in all 150 of its stores following a revenue-sharing deal with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6485572.html

4M PS3 + 100k BD set-top box owners versus 500k HD DVD owners, and the numbers are still so close and marginal? Where are those 4M PS3 owners? Why didn't 300 sell through 2M copies versus 134k? Why aren't Blu-ray discs selling in the MILLIONS? Are PS3 owners simply not convinced or interested in BD movies?

HD DVD is doing amazing when you compare the attach rates, more HD DVD owners are buying more movies than all 4.1M BD capable owners are.

Sony can add 100 new corp logos to their web site and buy out or do "revenue sharing" with every retailer, HD DVD is still going strong. So much for the "HD DVD is dead by Christmas 2006" argument.

Although it's interesting to talk about, it's useless to talk about all this now...

We can debate which format is better than the other until we're in the face, but it's J6P who will determine the winning format, not early adopters.

The truth is the general public is not interested in HDM right now. 4:3 televisions and DVD are currently meeting all their needs, but the fact of the matter is, by the time they see the benefits of HDTV and HDM (which could be in 2 years or more), the price of Blu-ray players and their specs should be comparable to HD DVD.

When Blu-ray and HD DVD players are on the same level, we'll just have to wait and see which format J6P will choose then. And disc storage space will likely not be their deciding factor.

So, with that said, let's just enjoy our HD movies while we can. :)

Hastings Entertainment has significantly expanded Blu-ray Disc rental in all 150 of its stores following a revenue-sharing deal with Sony Pictures Home Entertainment.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6485572.html

That's major news considering how much of a footprint Hastings has in rural markets in the middle of the country.

It's pretty simple and it's true on both sides of the fence - the hostility is due to the fact that, for whatever reason, some people are deciding to only invest in one format and have therefore "placed their bets" and will do/say anything to convince themselves and others that their side will win. That's all it comes down to.

As a kid, I did the same thing with video game consoles. The Super Nintendo sucked because I already owned a Sega Genesis and couldn't afford to buy another console (of course, I later caved in and got a Super NES... then barely touched the Genesis again).

I've said it before, but the whole hostility in these forums is geared towards STORAGE mediums. Spec-wise, nobody can argue that Blu-Ray has inferior storage capacity. The best anyone can say is "We don't need more storage".
Also, nobody can argue that BD-J isn't ready, yet IME worked out of the gate.

But, when it comes down to what's most important - PQ and AQ - the format is irrelevant. Again, these are STORAGE mediums. What gets put ON these discs has anothing to do with the format.


Well, for me, my hostility towards BR has nothing to do with any of that. I own a PS3 but refuse to support the BDA for one reason and one reason only : their filthy dirty lowest of low tactics and arrogance. I hope they end up eating their shorts just for that alone. I absolutely and irrevocably hate Sony now to the point where I will never buy a Sony product again.

Call me irrational all you want, but seeing what they do with wikipedia and blogs and all the lies they spread on a constant basis, I'm to the point where if Sony and especially Fox's Ruper Murdoch would die tomorrow, I would be having a party.

I'm to the point where if Sony and especially Fox's Ruper Murdoch would die tomorrow, I would be having a party.

That is truly pathetic that because of a format war or tactics in marketing that you would wish death on anyone. Man this side of the fence is really getting worse by the day.

That is truly pathetic that because of a format war or tactics in marketing that you would wish death on anyone. Man this side of the fence is really getting worse by the day.


Then why are you over here? Go back to the Blu-ray side where everything is bubbles and candy. There is no logical reason that you should even be posting here.

This is pretty pathetic. Some people need to get a life :

Examples-

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17821

http://www.blu-crew.com/petitions.html

And even more...
http://www.campaignhd.com/807_State_Of_BD.html
http://www.campaignhd.com/
http://www.campaignhd.com/807_BD11_Update.html
http://www.hdnowonline.com/

You find them everywhere...

I absolutely and irrevocably hate Sony now to the point where I will never buy a Sony product again.

+1

Then why are you over here? Go back to the Blu-ray side where everything is bubbles and candy. There is no logical reason that you should even be posting here.

ummm....maybe because zealots like you like wishing DEATH on people who don't agree with the type of AV equipment you use???

Your mindless adoloation of a FORMAT is mind boggling.

blu ray is better in every way

blu ray is better in every way

What an insightful post. Thanks for contributing!

Mods: Time to close this thread.

What "ever-growing support for BD"?? BD has been losing support steadily over the last few months.

Really? Would you show something to support that, that doesn't rely on one months worth of data with or a small segment of the market (IE Amazon rankings)?

The correct answer would most likely be better marketing, and the PS3 certainly helps.