Hello
No motionflow with vw60 was a let down. However I see motionflow on two levels.

level 1
24fps into 120fps no judder
60fps into 120fps with 60 new interpolated frames
I think this should have been in vw60 since it will be available even in the A3000 series rptvs.

level 2
Includes level1 and
the option of dark frame insertion fully or partly
Only available in vw200

Conclusion
Sony had a priority to get vw60 to the market as soon as possible. The only loss in level 1 and is not that big sinca vw60 does 24fps into 96Hz. The loss of motionflow is the loss of frame interpolation for 60Hz inputs. I would argue that no hdmi 1.3 is a bigger issue even though it will have practically no consequence.

QUESTION
Do vw60 and vw200 use the same panels even if the electronics are different?

QUESTION
Do vw60 and vw200 use the same panels even if the electronics are different?

Ohlson, the answer I received when asking that question was yes. That is when I decided to start a thread asking if a firmware upgrade was possible in the vw60 to incorporate motionflow. I realize it won't happen, was just more curious if it was possible.

You mentioned that the VW200 is the only SXRD panel doing #2, is this correct? So all other motionflow devices are only displaying @ 120? Bummer if true. They shouldn't really even call that motionflow imho.

Hi Mattias,

I have another question: Is the Motionflow, which everybody seems to be missing in the VW60, the same Motionflow as Sony has in their newer LCD TVs?

If it is the same thing, I don't think we should feel too unhappy about not getting it in the VW60, as I mentioned in the VW70 thread.

I've got a KDL-32D3000 in the bedroom and I've spent some time playing with Motionflow (that didn't sound right:rolleyes:). At first it looks impressive and it does add sharpness during pans, but soon you will start noticing artefacts every now and then (halos, and sometimes blurring around the edges of moving objects). Once you start seeing that, you start looking for them and I think lots of people will end up keeping the Motionflow switched off.

If you've seen the shimmering around moving objects on Philips TVs with Natural Motion activated, you'll know what I mean. It's not as visible and it's not as frequent on the Sony, but it's there.

I think I am going to pull the trigger on a VW60.:)

nilsson
I am arguing that posiition too that motionflow is not such a big deal since the only "loss" is not getting frame interpolation which do cause artifacts as experienced by yourself.
Dark frame insertion on the other hand is something we do want if we have enough brightness to spare. I hope some experience of dark frame insertion will soon be posted on this forum.

It sounds like 120fps and Motionflow are first generation technology with great promise, but still rough around the edges. Nilsson - I find your remarks most interesting as I have not seen Motionflow in action but am skeptical. Whether it be hardware or software it takes time for these things to mature. If you've spent any time in the video processor forum or have owned and Faroudja, Lumagen or DVDO product you know what I'm saying.

The most likely combination that a user of the 200 will use is selection of a generated frame that is darkened 30 to 40% and is offset by the orginal frames with boosted gamma of about 30 to 40%. Fooling your eye into seeing a picture that is only a little darker than the original frame.

Do you think a combination of dark frame with the iris will give us better contrast then anything we have seen so far?
I would also think using dark frame insertion would allow someone to relax on the use of the iris and stay in the same contrast ball park as the VW60 or RS1.

Black frame or a darkened generated frame offset by a real frame brightened?

Hi Mattias,

I have another question: Is the Motionflow, which everybody seems to be missing in the VW60, the same Motionflow as Sony has in their newer LCD TVs?

If it is the same thing, I don't think we should feel too unhappy about not getting it in the VW60, as I mentioned in the VW70 thread.

I've got a KDL-32D3000 in the bedroom and I've spent some time playing with Motionflow (that didn't sound right:rolleyes:). At first it looks impressive and it does add sharpness during pans, but soon you will start noticing artefacts every now and then (halos, and sometimes blurring around the edges of moving objects). Once you start seeing that, you start looking for them and I think lots of people will end up keeping the Motionflow switched off.

If you've seen the shimmering around moving objects on Philips TVs with Natural Motion activated, you'll know what I mean. It's not as visible and it's not as frequent on the Sony, but it's there.

I think I am going to pull the trigger on a VW60.:)

In the Sony manuals for the LCDs it tells you to turn off motionflow if it creates noise or distortion. In the VW200 manual, it doesn't say anything about noise or distortion. I believe that the technology is similar but not necessarily the same. Hopefully the SXRD version is much cleaner than your LCD panel.

I don´t get all this fuss about Sony´s motionflow, isn´t it very similar to Philips´"digital natural motion"? Except I´d think Philips´ tech could be much better since they´ve been working on it for eons, and improving it many many times. The first versions had big problems with fast motion. I´ve brought up DNR a few times here on the forum and always get the same reply that it makes stuff look "wrong" or "weird" etc... I think it makes everything smooth like it´s shot on a video camera, takes away the film judder that wer´re used to seeing, and that can put many people off. I think it looks nice when it´s not artifacting, but it doesn´t seem to be most peoples cup of tea. So why the hype about Sony´s tech... is it any better?

keyser

I agree. I want to see 48 hit the screen but most want higher refresh rates. Im a film buff so I want to emulate film, theater going experience.
On the other hand I am very interested in the black frame insertion if it helps contrast.

Dark frame insertion will let our brain perceive smoother motion. It is a way of tricking our perception of motion. Sony might improve shadow detail with the option of semi dark frame insertion option. It will be fun to read about how this technology performs on screen.

I don't think it improves contrast. Black frame insertion costs light. Big time. Insertion of more frames (frames generated by interpolating between two progress source frames) helps certain things but doesn't eliminate judder the way black frames do. The solution is the insertion of generated frames that are darkened and lightening the real frames, Eye perceives brightness as almost the same. I have Sony literature on this but I am not at liberty to reproduce it. I think if any problem it would be generating frames between real frames. The algs for this will certainly improve over time.