Title says it all. :)

Most welcome...although no thanks is needed.

Jason, How would you compare it to the RS-1 ?

Yes well done Jason, can't wait for mine! :)

Question on long and short throw measurements. Are they the absolute limits of the throw, ie the figures sony puts in their manual for minimum distance and maximum distance from the screen?

S

Where can I find this review?

Where can I find this review?

At the top of LCOS projector forum in the stickies

Im glad he is done with the review for other reasons, selfish reasons. Im trying to pry it from his little paws so I can spend and evening with it:)

Ahhh, thanks. I keep checking this page:

http://www.avscience.com/reviews.htm

yes thanks

does anyone remember what kind of CR figures Jason come up with on the VW50?

-Gary

yeah i would love to hear how it compares to the jvs rs1 too

i meant JVC

Jason seems to imply he prefers it - at least for tweakability and the absence of neon greens... but I'd like to get a straight comparison with an RS1.

Jason,
My thanks as well it is definitely looking like my long threatened upgrade (I have to, too many 1080p24 2.35 movies just waiting for the requisite stretchy thing to fill me screen. DVD don't cut it no more.

One small point that I want clarification on - the MSRP. You state $5495 in your review, however Sony US (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665192796) and Canada (http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1004354&navigationPath=n32050n32190) both list it at $4999.

What's da deal dood?

Alan
Please do comment as soon as possible. In the past your sentiments have aligned with mine perfectly with respect to what film should look like projected.

ted

Jason seems to imply he prefers it - at least for tweakability and the absence of neon greens... but I'd like to get a straight comparison with an RS1.

I know, that australian DTV forum had that "Jus" guy give gobs and gobs of technical data. I've never seen that much technical data in a thread/review before, yet I couldn't get a simple "this is better than the RS1" out of him. Maybe its apples to oranges, or simply a tough justification against the RS1?:o

-ELmO

If you compare the VPL-VW60 screen shot on the beach in Pirates of the Carribean with the same screen shot for the IN82 Review, the Sony looks far more colorful. If both projectors are calibrated to D65, I would expect the colors to be similar. Am I reading too much into the screen shots or is there a significant difference here?

One small point that I want clarification on - the MSRP. You state $5495 in your review, however Sony US and Canada both list it at $4999.


Actually it is $5495 MSRP, $4995 MAP.

Jus from Australia got 37% higher with the iris off and 61% higher with Auto1. A non-black room with 100% light control will really give that much better results?

Lots of factors could play, including room type, particular projector, gear used in testing, etc...

That is why I ALWAYS put the disclaimer...take it for what it's worth.

William

D65 is a calibration for the white point only - REC709 is for the full RGB gamut. Both need to be right to get the colors right.

I should add that I have personally QC'd about 75 JVC RS1's...I have had contrast range on these units from in the 7000:1 range to almost 20000:1....all for a projector that is rated at 15000:1. Basically EVERY projector is different.

Dang that's a huge ratio

Yes although in fairness the ones that tested less than the mid 9k range I failed and sent back to JVC. Most averaged about 12-14k:1. My point is to show that you have to take all the review number results with a grain of salt. For instance, my VW60 review showed quite a bit lower light output than the VW50 from last year. But, that isn't to say the next one wouldn't be higher.

Jason
Is RCP in the new black Peal any different from earlier RCP?
What gamma choices were there and from which did you calibrate?

thanks

The RCP appears identical in, well, appearance. It also seemed to work similarly, but I cannot tell if it is improved as the starting colors were so much better. For instance, on the VW50 green is way out of the triangle, and you can bring it in somewhat, but not that far. In the case of the VW60, green wasn't that bad (you can see it) so I was easily able to bring it in.

Long answer to say, I don't really know if it has changed, or if the projector just comes in at a point that the RCP was adequate.

I calibrated at Gamma 3 (I have always found that was the best).

Jason doesn't seem to want to give a straight answer about which projector he likes more (RS-1 or Black Pearl) So I have a more direct question. I have a room that is semi light controlled and a 133" HP screen, I'm a little concern about projector light output, which one is brighter, Black Pearl or RS-1. I know RS-1 spects say 700 and black Pearl 900 (or 1000), but what numbers did he measure for each?

I try not to publically state my opinion between 2 rivaling projectors for obvious reasons. To answer your question...based on what I have with this VW60 and the many, many RS1's I have tested, the RS1 is a brighter projector. But that could possibly change depending on how things go with further testing of more VW60's.

Okay, if you were to walk into a bar and while picking up a beer you run into a voluptuous darker pigmented chick(maybe Latina or from the islands), Pearl, but you are supposed to meet Jennifer V. Connolly (not the movie star but still pretty hot) which one would you do?

Look at his review on:

http://avscience.com/reviews/projector_sony_vplvw50.htm
thanks, I was looking all over for that

-Gary

Okay, if you were to walk into a bar and while picking up a beer you run into a voluptuous darker pigmented chick(maybe Latina or from the islands), Pearl, but you are supposed to meet Jennifer V. Connolly (not the movie star but still pretty hot) which one would you do?

jennifer

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ
Okay, if you were to walk into a bar and while picking up a beer you run into a voluptuous darker pigmented chick(maybe Latina or from the islands), Pearl, but you are supposed to meet Jennifer V. Connolly (not the movie star but still pretty hot) which one would you do?

Miss Sharpova has the most natural look to me so that's the one I'd hook up with... :D

Jason:

Did you happen to save the before/after raw xyY data from your measurements of the VPL-VW60?

Thanks for the info.

Hi Jason
Have you got anything to report about the Iris function versus the VW50. Did it manage to hide it's operation better, or were you happy with the VW50?
Cheers
tt

Here's a shootout between the JVC & VW-60. From what i seen and heard the JVC still have better deep blacks and contrast then the new "Black Pearl":(

I know screenshoots don't tell the whole image quality, but still it's better at deep blacks.

http://www.avac.co.jp/vw60/vplvw60.html

http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/yokosuga/diary/200709060000

Thanks Jason for the review.I am going to see what else comes out soon from epson and panny ect.If the Sony had more light It would be at the top of my list.But I need more light.Was hoping the new vw60 would have more.BOB

Here's a shootout between the JVC & VW-60. From what i seen and heard the JVC still have better deep blacks and contrast then the new "Black Pearl":(

I know screenshoots don't tell the whole image quality, but still it's better at deep blacks.

http://www.avac.co.jp/vw60/vplvw60.html

http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/yokosuga/diary/200709060000

Those are some interesting screenshots.

I find it hard to believe that some of those shots are the same frame.

For instance, on the shot of the lady with the hoop earings, the vw-60 shot seems to be missing what appears to be shadow on the right side of the lady's face, while the lady's face on the vw-60 seems brighter overall. I also note the cartoony looking red on the stripes of her shirt on the RS1 shot. Much more detail on her har on the RS1 shot.

On the castle shot, the buildings in the foreground also display similar shadow differences. On the RS1, they appear to have a shadow on their face, on the vw-60, they appear brightly lit. The vw-60 seems brighter overall.

Jason
What kind of lumen can the vw60 give when D65 perfection is replaced by the desire to have more brightness for sports viewing?

I am selling my CRT. Not beause I don't like it or it isn't better, but too many hassles. Piss poor support. Being held hostage by limited repairers and setup people.
I am going to stack a couple of relatively inexpensive HT bulb machines. Could be two 60s.


Guys, you have to remember bulbs age big time. These 60 measurements are on brand new bulbs. Meaningless. Who knows in the shoot out how many hours on the RS1 vs new 60.


if you want bright stack. If you can't afford to stack, there will be brightness compromises on any cheap HT machine. If you want bright over everything, simply buy a cheap presentation projector.

Of course I am tempted by the new Sim2 three chipper but for me that would be twice the cost of a Sony stack.

I am selling my CRT. Not beause I don't like it or it isn't better, but too many hassles. Piss poor support. Being held hostage by limited repairers and setup people.
I am going to stack a couple of relatively inexpensive HT bulb machines. Could be two 60s.


Guys, you have to remember bulbs age big time. These 60 measurements are on brand new bulbs. Meaningless. Who knows in the shoot out how many hours on the RS1 vs new 60.


if you want bright stack. If you can't afford to stack, there will be brightness compromises on any cheap HT machine. If you want bright over everything, simply buy a cheap presentation projector.

Of course I am tempted by the new Sim2 three chipper but for me that would be twice the cost of a Sony stack.
I know what you mean Mark, same boat here

you find the VW60 good enough for you coming from your CRT? or have you seen it in action yet

a stack! nice ;)

-Gary

From what I have seen so far in reviews and screenshots, it looks like the VW60 is sharper than the RS1 and a little punchier on high APL scenes. I also like the color palette better on the VW60. The RS1 still has the edge in black level and shadow detail on low APL scenes. Besides this the RS1 has better placement flexibility but is a little noisier. I would only go for the RS1 if low APL scenes and placement flexibility are tops on the list, otherwise the VW60 will be hard to beat at this pricepoint. Again Jason, thanks for the review!

From what I have seen so far in reviews and screenshots, it looks like the VW60 is sharper than the RS1 and a little punchier on high APL scenes. I also like the color palette better on the VW60. The RS1 still has the edge in black level and shadow detail on low APL scenes. Besides this the RS1 has better placement flexibility but is a little noisier. I would only go for the RS1 if low APL scenes and placement flexibility are tops on the list, otherwise the VW60 will be hard to beat at this pricepoint. Again Jason, thanks for the review!

Well stated. Sums up the differences nicely.

Of course I am tempted by the new Sim2 three chipper but for me that would be twice the cost of a Sony stack.

Mark,

Isn't the new sim2 $50,000?
Is the VPW200 $12,500?

Isn't it playing with fire to stack that expensive projector? Projector technology is changing by the 3-6 months, it will be out of date quickly and the price would drop to half within 2 years probably (?).

-ELmO

Gary. I don't know yet. My first shipment should show up tomorrow or Monday. I'll need to QC them befoe customers pick them up so on Monday I'll get to play a little. Everything at this price level has good and bad points. The .1 step convergence of the Sony I think would give it the edge on a stack over the RS1. The Sony lens appears better too. The 200 would be even better but we are talking a $20K stack here for me. At that point, the sim2 looks like a better solution giving up a little in blacks of the Sonys. I just don't know yet. Its not just spending the money, but this stuff gets old fast and better for me to lose $7K when I throw it out or sell it cheap in 2 years than $20K.

You posted at the same time I did, but you mentioned the same points..cool.

Mark you have been a CRT man for many years but I guess you have your reasons for
making the change. Yes these darn bulbs dim within a few hundred hours. As bright as 3 chip DLP seams it drops to a comfortable brightness in time and no longer seams a light canon but still brighter then anything else. We need new light technology. Using conventional bulbs are getting old.

The new Sim 3c whatever using the DC4 is $30K MSRP and the Sony is $15000 MSRP. I am a dealer for both so costs for me are cheaper. Dealer accomodations yada yada. I am 62, My life is now so I don't care about long term investments. Football is every Sunday, Monday, Thursday. Now! A stack of sub $10k projectors would be relatively inexpensive for me. Because of convergence, the Sony might be the only real option for a stack at this point. There never is ny right answer but to wait another year. if only it had this or that. But time is not on my side anymore and while CRTs are relaive constants though substantially depreciating by the second, f___ this CRT fecal matter. I am tired of kissing ass and waiting foreever to get anything done.

A stack of bulbs sounds like the answer for you. It would give you the most flexibility. If you are watching a movie with a lot of dark content just fire up one machine. For your football games fire up both. Mark at 62 you are still a young man. I think you should sign up for Dancing with the Stars, I bet you could give Cuban a run for the money:)

if Mark is young at 62 then I must be a infant at 23 :p

I just realized some of you guys are old enough to be my grand pappy :D

-Gary

if Mark is young at 62 then I must be a infant at 23 :p

I just realized some of you guys are old enough to be my grand pappy :D

-Gary
I wonder if Mark was ever 23 . . . :rolleyes:

Gary. I don't know yet. My first shipment should show up tomorrow or Monday. I'll need to QC them befoe customers pick them up so on Monday I'll get to play a little. Everything at this price level has good and bad points. The .1 step convergence of the Sony I think would give it the edge on a stack over the RS1. The Sony lens appears better too. The 200 would be even better but we are talking a $20K stack here for me. At that point, the sim2 looks like a better solution giving up a little in blacks of the Sonys. I just don't know yet. Its not just spending the money, but this stuff gets old fast and better for me to lose $7K when I throw it out or sell it cheap in 2 years than $20K.
Mark, what CRT do you own and use? I was thinking a 9500LC, anxious to hear your comments ;)

thanks

-Gary

has anyone seen the vw60 and the rs1 together? if so i would love some feedback

Great review. When can i get one?

if Mark is young at 62 then I must be a infant at 23 :p

I just realized some of you guys are old enough to be my grand pappy :D

-Gary

Your avatar shows your age, son.
27 here.

From what I have seen so far in reviews and screenshots, it looks like the VW60 is sharper than the RS1 and a little punchier on high APL scenes. I also like the color palette better on the VW60. The RS1 still has the edge in black level and shadow detail on low APL scenes. Besides this the RS1 has better placement flexibility but is a little noisier. I would only go for the RS1 if low APL scenes and placement flexibility are tops on the list, otherwise the VW60 will be hard to beat at this pricepoint. Again Jason, thanks for the review!

Don't forget that the VW60 does not need an external scaler to do CIH. That's what has steered me toward the Sony over the JVC.

JD

Your avatar shows your age, son.

Thanks a bunch :rolleyes:

-Gary

A stack of bulbs sounds like the answer for you. It would give you the most flexibility. If you are watching a movie with a lot of dark content just fire up one machine. For your football games fire up both. Mark at 62 you are still a young man. I think you should sign up for Dancing with the Stars, I bet you could give Cuban a run for the money:)

I know this may sound stupid.But could one stack say a vw60 with the new ax200 and get the best of both worlds.:o BOB

I know this may sound stupid.But could one stack say a vw60 with the new ax200 and get the best of both worlds.:o BOB

I suspect you'd have much better luck getting them in sync if you used two of the same PJs...

So is the AUTO 2 setting the one that's less aggressive IRIS wise, and creates the fewest problems with brightness compression etc?

Nice review! The contrast numbers are a bit disappointing though.

I just spent a little time with the VW60. It is cleaner then the RS1 and the colors are very nice. The RS1 has better low end black. I do not know how you could go wrong with ether projector. I would not want to be the one deciding which t buy. Tough call.
As far as the Iris they have really tamed the use of it. I mean it is not as aggressive as it was in the Ruby. Regardless what setting I choose with the 60 it is hard to see it working yet it is doing its thing. I do not see the breathing or the crush like I can with the Ruby. With the Ruby I can clamp that puppy right down. Its possible Sony gave the new models less range after the complaints of brightness compression. Convergence was dead on and the pictures was very sharp. I fed it 24 and it worked great. Its now back in the box so I cannot ck out anything further :)

I just spent a little time with the VW60. It is cleaner then the RS1 and the colors are very nice. The RS1 has better low end black. I do not know how you could go wrong with ether projector. I would not want to be the one deciding which t buy. Tough call.
As far as the Iris they have really tamed the use of it. I mean it is not as aggressive as it was in the Ruby. Regardless what setting I choose with the 60 it is hard to see it working yet it is doing its thing. I do not see the breathing or the crush like I can with the Ruby. With the Ruby I can clamp that puppy right down. Its possible Sony gave the new models less range after the complaints of brightness compression. Convergence was dead on and the pictures was very sharp. I fed it 24 and it worked great. Its now back in the box so I cannot ck out anything further :)

Alan: When you say "cleaner than the RS1," are you refering to the background noise or dithering that has been reported? Would you describe the image "noise" more so than what is normal with a DLP (vs let's say the cleaner image of an LCD?)

My thought is with JVC's new lower MSRP, there maybe some nice buying opportunities on this unit?

Ron

yeah im in the same boat. coming from a pearl im not sure whether to go for the JVC or black pearl. a friend told me the JVC has better picture quality and the gennum processor is way better. i will be buying sight unseen so i would love some first hand feedback

Nice review! The contrast numbers are a bit disappointing though.

Way too low IMO for the native. I thought it would come out about twice.

Numbers count but perception rules.
The Cine4Home numbers are higher.
It will be fun to read gregr review as I assuem one is coming.

Nice review! The contrast numbers are a bit disappointing though.Way too low IMO for the native. I thought it would come out about twice.
I think we should put the numbers in context to Jason's other measurements. Jason's VW60 iris off CR numbers are > 2 times that of his VW50 numbers( 3,671:1 vs 1,746:1 ), they are ~ the same has he measured for the Sharp 20K in best contrast mode! (3,671:1 vs 3,767:1 ) :eek:.

Ron

I have not seen the RS1 in a while so I am going by memory but I remember the RS1 with bad source you could see the compression artifacts like you would with DLP. The Sony is cleaner.
For those mentioning numbers the pictures is very pleasing and bright. I do not see any weakness jumping out at me. You would have to put this side by side with the RS1 to really compare and 5 different people would probably walk away with different opinions. For the money these are a lot of projector.

Too bad it could not keep up with the RS1 in
the low end blacklevel. Watching dark movies like "Aliens" etc.. this gives a big benefit for the RS1.

Why do Sony always bragg about such high numbers like

Native Contrast 7,000:1
Contrast Ratio Advanced Iris 2 35,000:1
Brightness 1000 ANSI Lumen

The biggest surprise of Jason's review IMO was the increase in color accuracy:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Colors_After_Adjustment-Normal.jpg

The biggest surprise of Jason's review IMO was the increase in color accuracy:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Colors_After_Adjustment-Normal.jpg
yes that is nice, to put it plain and simple I will never consider the RS1 after seeing some of the results in that area, not good :(

-Gary

The biggest surprise of Jason's review IMO was the increase in color accuracy:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Colors_After_Adjustment-Normal.jpg

That's what really got my attention too. On the other hand, his measurements were lower than I expected for CR and lumen. I'd like to see a couple other reviews on other Black Pearls before I come to any conclusions. After being so unhappy with the RS1, I'm really sceptical about lcos PJs!

What I didn't see mentioned in Jason's review (maybe I missed it as I quickly scanned over it) was noise level and how well it handled CIH.

Jason or Alan: How bright were the corners on the unit you had?

Looking into his numbers I got something like .004 FT for Low,short with DI and .003 FT for hi, long, no DI onto 8' wide unity. I don't know how it would be possible.

I think we should put the numbers in context to Jason's other measurements. Jason's VW60 iris off CR numbers are > 2 times that of his VW50 numbers( 3,671:1 vs 1,746:1 ), they are ~ the same has he measured for the Sharp 20K in best contrast mode! (3,671:1 vs 3,767:1 ) :eek:.

Very good point! If you look at it that way the contrast on the VW60 is about a 2x improvement over the VW50 and the increased color accuracy is a big improvement too. All in all a very nice incremental improvement.

So who is going to due a review of the Black Pearl in a CIH setup with a lense in place???

I can not wait to see what this thing can due on my 130" 2.35:1 ST130 curved screen using a Panamorph U380 lense!!! ;)

http://www.digitalvortex.com/Marks%20Medieval%20Knight%20Theater.JPG

I think we should put the numbers in context to Jason's other measurements. Jason's VW60 iris off CR numbers are > 2 times that of his VW50 numbers( 3,671:1 vs 1,746:1 ), they are ~ the same has he measured for the Sharp 20K in best contrast mode! (3,671:1 vs 3,767:1 ) :eek:.My WSR review will be posted at noon (Pacific time) tomorrow. It will have different numbers for CR and brightness.

What I didn't see mentioned in Jason's review (maybe I missed it as I quickly scanned over it) was noise level and how well it handled CIH.

I did not measure the noise level from the BP but it was quieter then the RS1.

Yes it will do CIH for both options, leaving the lens in place it will place a 16x9 in the center and for those with a sled moving the lens into place it does the V stretch.

Jason or Alan: How bright were the corners on the unit you had?

I did not take any measurements just did a quick viewing session and the bright corners on this unit was there but visually it was one of the better ones.


How's the video processing on the VW60? No one's review states how well it handles 1080i and 720p to 1080p. The VW200 uses the DRC MF ver. 2.5, which apparently Sony calls the Bravia Engine Pro. The VW60 only has the Bravia Engine. Does that mean the VW60 doesn't have DRC MF 2.5 and some lower version? Is it at least DRC MF ver. 2.0 like the Ruby?

This is one fror the boss, Mr GR :)

My WSR review will be posted at noon (Pacific time) tomorrow. It will have different numbers for CR and brightness.

I love these.Cant wait.

When is it going to be available at a bookstore in print? Can I just buy that review online in pdf or whatever format?I don't know when the magazine appears in bookstores. It mails to subscriber's around Oct 15 so I imagine it is not too long after that. You can also get an online WSR subscription to read the the subscriber's website. If you want one quickly (i.e. for tomorrow) I suggest you call the WSR office before 5 pm Pacific time today and tell them you need access for tomorrow so they have time to set it up in the system. The decision to post this tomorrow was just made (because I'm busy next week) so the person you talk to may not know yet that the review is being put on the web site tomorrow.

So who is going to due a review of the Black Pearl in a CIH setup with a lense in place???

I can not wait to see what this thing can due on my 130" 2.35:1 ST130 curved screen using a Panamorph U380 lense!!! ;)

http://www.digitalvortex.com/Marks%20Medieval%20Knight%20Theater.JPG

Show off!

:D

I'm considering either an RS1 or the Black Pearl and was hoping for some advice and then I get:




I would not want to be the one deciding which to buy.

Thanks a lot!!:(

Of course I'm a "show off" ... have to compensate for other short comings.... lol ;)

Found a 2.35:1 Black Pearl review from Kemet:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=904229

Perhaps he can chime in with more thoughts now that he has had it for awhile....

Numbers count but perception rules.
The Cine4Home numbers are higher.
It will be fun to read gregr review as I assuem one is coming.



By next week, I will have measurement data of -four- different VW60... all final series.. so by then we should know average contrast and deviation between machines...


Regards,
Ekkehart

My WSR review will be posted at noon (Pacific time) tomorrow. It will have different numbers for CR and brightness.

Is it me or is widescreenreview.com offline now?

Perhaps too many people are trying to access the site, waiting for the review. (?)

Jason:

Did you happen to save the before/after raw xyY data from your measurements of the VPL-VW60?

Thanks for the info.

Yes drop me an email and I can send you the full report.

Hi Jason
Have you got anything to report about the Iris function versus the VW50. Did it manage to hide it's operation better, or were you happy with the VW50?
Cheers
tt

I found it similar to the VW50, which was very good.

Numbers count but perception rules.
The Cine4Home numbers are higher.
It will be fun to read gregr review as I assuem one is coming.

Agreed...numbers are too highly regarded...it's the performance on the screen that counts.

Widescreen review's article/review of the new Sony is on-line as I type.


Ron

deleted

Jason,

What version of HDMI does the Black Pearl has (1.3a or 1.2)?

Thanks,

It is confirmed the Pearl uses HDMI 1.2a, so no Deep Color support

I confess I didn't read this thread, but, although it's the Italian version (waiting for the English translation, but it has a lot of measures!) this is my review of the Sony...

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/preload.asp?ID=252&PROD=3429

I wonder why the differences in contrast ratios and lumen output between the Greg Rogers review and Jasons. Do you think it is variation within units, or differences in setup/measuring techniques?

here are more different no. from a "pre production unit"
that
http://www.cine4home.de/index2.htm
measure.

i never measure such high no.
may be i am only not lucky and others always get
the good units:)

may +- 15% its the range in cr. may more.
same may be for lumens and then dont forgeth
the different methods and different equipment they use.

i know about 1.5 years back i found some 1280x720 lcd that have
half the cr. a other unit have and thats is not a exeption.

I wonder why the differences in contrast ratios and lumen output between the Greg Rogers review and Jasons. Do you think it is variation within units, or differences in setup/measuring techniques?

Though I don't doubt we do things differently, contrast is relatively simple to do so I doubt that would account for it. More likely it is because all projectors are different. There are no 2, even of the same model, alike. I cannot tell you how often I find this. I am going to test a couple more VW60 to see whether my unit was not the norm, or if Greg's unit was not the norm, or both...

Jason, what is the image lag of the JVC RS100 or Sony SXRD pjs?

Jason, what is the image lag of the JVC RS100 or Sony SXRD pjs?

This is something GR may be able to answer but I know lag was an issue with the earlier ILA projectors. I have not read of any issues ( that does not mean it is not there ) with Lag with any of the current Sony or JVC projectors. I do think it is still an issue with LCD.

here are more different no. from a "pre production unit"
that
http://www.cine4home.de/index2.htm
measure.

i never measure such high no.
may be i am only not lucky and others always get
the good units:)

may +- 15% its the range in cr. may more.
same may be for lumens and then dont forgeth
the different methods and different equipment they use.

i know about 1.5 years back i found some 1280x720 lcd that have
half the cr. a other unit have and thats is not a exeption.

I wonder why the differences in contrast ratios and lumen output between the Greg Rogers review and Jasons. Do you think it is variation within units, or differences in setup/measuring techniques?

Im guessing variation in units and measuring technique's, rooms etc. Look at Mayers post above. More different numbers then Gregs!

Though I don't doubt we do things differently, contrast is relatively simple to do so I doubt that would account for it. More likely it is because all projectors are different. There are no 2, even of the same model, alike. I cannot tell you how often I find this. I am going to test a couple more VW60 to see whether my unit was not the norm, or if Greg's unit was not the norm, or both...
Well, you, gregr, and Cine4Home got almost identical numbers ( within < 5% ) for the d65 iris off max throw on/off CR!:)

Right, so that probably tells me that the norm is in the higher end range (meaning perhaps I have a lower output/defective lamp). But I would suspect that I test more projectors OF A SINGLE model than most other reviewers, so I know for a fact that they can vary.

Black Pearl / Screen Size question. In a totally dark room, no ambient light, is a 120" Studiotek 1.3 gain white screen too large for this projector? Would the image quality being negatively effected by going this big on the screen?

I guess not.
Check data and images here, the screen is a 110" diagonal 16:9 Studiotek 1.3:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/preload.asp?ID=252&PROD=3429

I guess not.
Check data and images here, the screen is a 110" diagonal 16:9 Studiotek 1.3:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/preload.asp?ID=252&PROD=3429
I don't speak Italian, and Google won't translate it :(.

It looks like you measured ~2,100:1 using 50% fixed iris? What was your throw?

What was the throw and lamp mode when you measured 491 lumens?

Jason,
Do you have any idea of the number of hours on the lamp when you tested the VW60?

I don't speak Italian, and Google won't translate it :(.

It looks like you measured ~2,100:1 using 50% fixed iris? What was your throw?

What was the throw and lamp mode when you measured 491 lumens?

The review is scheduled to be put on the English side of HTProjectors' web site very soon.
However, lamp control was on high and IRIS on Auto1. The graphs you see referring to IRIS performance were drawn with a random setting, just to spot the difference in behavior among the various IRIS' positions.
What the review describes it's a variable uniformity with IRIS, that affects (quite heavily IMHO) the projector's performance. The Auto 1 seems the more stable position and the one that gives better blacks, even though this is more evident with real moving images rather than with measures.
But I've made a direct comparison between the VW60 and the CineVersum BlackWing II (i.e., the JVC HD1...) that is quite interesting (same screen and source and calibrated conditions for both projectors) to see what happens with real images... :D and this is an example.

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/shootout_BWII_VW60/DSC06469_b.JPG

...However, lamp control was on high and IRIS on Auto1...My mistake. The 2nd picture on page 3 gave me the impression that you went into the manual iris and selected 50%!

So you measured an on/off CR of 2,098:1 in Auto 1 mode :eek:, Well you are the low number by a factor of almost 6 over Jason, and 9 times lower than gregr :)

What did you measure for iris off? What about iris min?

It was only about 3 hours...fresh lamp.

Vastly different numbers yet again...the plot thickens. :)

So you measured an on/off CR of 2,098:1 in Auto 1 mode :eek:, Well you are the low number by a factor of almost 6 over Jason, and 9 times lower than gregr :)

What did you measure for iris off? What about iris min?

I use a DeltaOhm multimeter with an individually calibrated sensor NIST traceable for making my readings. The sensor is placed at the center of the screen and the pattern is a full white/black.
I don't know what others do, but I don't know their measurement values too: the contrast you refer to is under calibrated conditions, which means that I have a set of parameter that can heavily affect projector's brightness, that is not my main concern.
In order to raise the CR value, you could just raise contrast: if you make this and do not specify the parameters you are using, manufacturers are happy and HT buffs can discuss a lot about "new performance". That's exactly what happens with a well known Italian magazine that takes the measure with contrast set to its maximum... to meet spec's numbers! This is non realistic, I want to evaluate a projector under its actual working conditions and see what happens, I don't care if the technology is the latest or not: I want to see good results on screen!

Right, so that probably tells me that the norm is in the higher end range (meaning perhaps I have a lower output/defective lamp). But I would suspect that I test more projectors OF A SINGLE model than most other reviewers, so I know for a fact that they can vary.



This is true, I can confirm that, a deviation is there between units.
But specs should be normally fullfilled... We measured and calibrated well over fifty (!) VPL-VW50 for example since it is available and 90% of them were according to Sonys official specs...

Regards,
Ekkehart


PS: I will check three more VW60 end of the week and let you know about the results...

But I've made a direct comparison between the VW60 and the CineVersum BlackWing II (i.e., the JVC HD1...) that is quite interesting (same screen and source and calibrated conditions for both projectors) to see what happens with real images... :D and this is an example.

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/shootout_BWII_VW60/DSC06469_b.JPG

Any chance of posting more compares in close/larger,
would like to see the detail / sharpness differences.

In the very small photo above the lower image (JVC?) does look crisper...

I use a DeltaOhm multimeter with an individually calibrated sensor NIST traceable for making my readings. The sensor is placed at the center of the screen and the pattern is a full white/black....I am not questioning your measurment method. I am asking what numbers did you mesure for the other iris positions?

Any chance of posting more compares in close/larger,
would like to see the detail / sharpness differences.

In the very small photo above the lower image (JVC?) does look crisper...

I would bet the upper picture is the JVC because of the more oversaturated colors. :)

Looking forward to Cine4home's review of the VW60 since I usually get measurements very similar to them.

Any chance of posting more compares in close/larger,
would like to see the detail / sharpness differences.

In the very small photo above the lower image (JVC?) does look crisper...

Like these ones? :)


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/shootout_BWII_VW60/DSC06517_b.JPG



http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/shootout_BWII_VW60/DSC06508_b.JPG


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/shootout_BWII_VW60/DSC06571_b.JPG

I am not questioning your measurment method. I am asking what numbers did you mesure for the other iris positions?

As I mentioned before, these measures are coming from a random settings' set, and are shown only to demonstrate hoe much IRIS affects uniformity. Points 1to 5 are upper left, upper right, center, lower left, lower right, units are Lumens.

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Iris Auto1.jpg


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Iris Auto2.jpg


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Iris Manual 0.jpg


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Iris Manual 50.jpg



http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Iris Off.jpg

Andrea - just to confirm is the upper image in the set from the VW60 ?

It looks softer in the photos, could be projector settings, but was that your impression watching too?

I think the upper image is the RS1, due to higher saturation

just a guess ;)

-Gary

As I mentioned before, these measures are coming from a random settings' set, and are shown only to demonstrate hoe much IRIS affects uniformity. Points 1to 5 are upper left, upper right, center, lower left, lower right, units are Lumens.
I was talking about this picture re manual iris at 50%:
http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Menu2_med.gif

Did you measure on/off CR at iris off ( max apreture) or iris on (min apreture)?

I think the upper image is the RS1, due to higher saturation

just a guess ;)

-Gary
That would be my guess also, combined with the increased sharpness from the VW60 that the earlier reviewers have described.

Of course this assumes that the normal mode color was used on the Black Pearl. :)

My addendum is posted to my review.
I tested a second unit.

You got quite a big ANSI CR jump there as well. 351:1 is pretty decent for sxrd and LiCoS

My addendum is posted to my review.
I tested a second unit.
Did you make any RCP changes to the color?
What was the iris on min apreture on/off cr measurements for the 2 units? A difference in how much the iris stops down could certainly account for the large difference in DI CR.

You got quite a big ANSI CR jump there as well. 351:1 is pretty decent for sxrd and LiCoS


I was just reading the Pioneer KURO PRO-110FD review at HomeTheatermag that measured the ANSI at 3239:1 and On/Off 4020:1 . Do contrast numbers really have any tangible meaning, it seems the eye must adjust?

Yes I calibrated the whole thing. I don't understand the other question...

Yes I calibrated the whole thing. I don't understand the other question...
IIMU that RCP is not a CMS because it changes the luminance as well as the saturation of a given color. Could changing the color, particularly green, result in a lowering of overall light output?

I was trying to get a sense of the iris on (fixed) smallest apreture, on/off CR of the two units. Similar to iris 1 on the 15S1 or high contrast on the Sharp 20K. If they are very different that may tell us the reason for the almost 2 x difference in DI numbers. The other difference may be in Service Menu settings. IIRC in the Ruby there are settings which regulate how quickly, and how much the iris adjusts, resulting in very different CR numbers.

Andrea,
Thanks for posting the pairs of photos of VW60 vs. RS1, but which machine is producing the top photos (some say JVC and some say VW60).
Please advise.
Thanks

I was talking about this picture re manual iris at 50%:
http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/Menu2_med.gif

Did you measure on/off CR at iris off ( max apreture) or iris on (min apreture)?

I understand that you don't speak Italian, so you couldn't realize that this is only the menu structure, that I took in the default conditions.

Since I don't believe in CR as a significant test, I don't spend too much time on this: what you get here

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/CR.jpg

is default (after having reset the whole unit) and calibrated conditions (the whole set of parameters that fit in my environment, and only there!) to take what I think it's the best out of this unit.

As you can see here, and it happens most of the times, CR is worse in calibrated conditions: but I can assure that these conditions were MUCH, MUCH BETTER than default (see RGB response, for example, and gamma).

Andrea,
Thanks for posting the pairs of photos of VW60 vs. RS1, but which machine is producing the top photos (some say JVC and some say VW60).
Please advise.
Thanks


http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/DSC06297_b.jpg

:D:D:D

Unfortunately the review #2 by Jason is a clear indication to me that the VW60 is too weak in the lumens area. Further the VW200 is too large and too heavy for my current setup. The platform at the rear of my theater is 24" deep and the VW200 is 23.5". If the exhaust were not at the rear of the projector there would be no problem. Further, it would be a major project for me to make any changes. I'm not too excited about the RS2, but I'll wait and see. Very Very frustrating.

I understand that you don't speak Italian, so you couldn't realize that this is only the menu structure, that I took in the default conditions...As much Serie A as I am watching this year I need to learn Italian!

Looking forward to the English version of your review, and more detailed comparison to the Blackwing.

wow, the VW60 is sharper and more detailed in Andrea's screenshots. Nice.

IIMU that RCP is not a CMS because it changes the luminance as well as the saturation of a given color. Could changing the color, particularly green, result in a lowering of overall light output?It would have a huge effect. The luminance of the green primary drops dramatically (incorrectly) if you use the RCP function to move its x,y coordinate to the SMPTE-C or Rec. 709 standard. You would then have to readjust the grayscale because the RCP affects grayscale (which you don't want it to do). FYI, my brightness and contrast measurements are made with the contrast maximized until a 2 dE error is produced in the grayscale at reference white (and the grayscale does not deteriorate from 10-100%). i.e. my contrast and brightness measurements are made with the grayscale adjusted as shown in the review, which was within 2 dE from 10-100%. Hence, the contrast and brightness measurements are made with careful calibration. Another important point to note is how the brightness uniformity varies with contrast. In my VW50 review (a year ago) the brightness and contrast were limited by the white field uniformity, which deteriorated badly at higher contrast settings. That was not the case with the VW60. Hence, under real operating conditions the useable brightness and contrast can be limited by a poor factory white field uniformity adjustment. I take all of those issues into account when I measure brightness and contrast.

So does the word SONY light up like on the Ruby when the VP60 is on? :)

I should be receiving my new VW-60 in the near future! :)

I'd like to construct a hush-box type ceiling mount for it and would appreciate any feedback from those of you that have seen it in action. I know the dimensions from various postings and it appears I'll need to leave some space on the side (since that's where the inputs are for the VW60). From photos it appears to vent out the front and thus I wouldn't need to worry as much about ventilation in the rear/sides. If anyone can confirm that for me or has any comments or suggestions I'd appreciate it.

Thanks! Can't wait to try it out... I'll write up my (layman) review as soon as I have it mounted up and running.

I dont think you'll need hush box with the VW60, the 50 was near silent and the 60 is reported to be quieter.

wow, the VW60 is sharper and more detailed in Andrea's screenshots. Nice.
interesting...i see the JVC as sharper (see for example the red stripes on the gentleman's shirt collar).
can you point me to any specific areas in the images that support your perception?
thanks

interesting...i see the JVC as sharper (see for example the red stripes on the gentleman's shirt collar).
can you point me to any specific areas in the images that support your perception?
thanks
also, please note that the jvc image is above and sony below, per andrea's response to my earlier question

I dont think you'll need hush box with the VW60, the 50 was near silent and the 60 is reported to be quieter.
Thanks, that's good to know... however, I'll still need one to use as a mount. It's more of a "hide box" than a hush box. :D

It would have a huge effect. The luminance of the green primary drops dramatically (incorrectly) if you use the RCP function to move its x,y coordinate to the SMPTE-C or Rec. 709 standard. You would then have to readjust the grayscale because the RCP affects grayscale (which you don't want it to do). FYI, my brightness and contrast measurements are made with the contrast maximized until a 2 dE error is produced in the grayscale at reference white (and the grayscale does not deteriorate from 10-100%)...Thanks for the info. I had suggested a while back that perhaps on/off CR numbers should be reported with a max grayscale deviation from d65, much like amplifier ratings (used to) require a frequency response.

Jason, any chance we could get non RPC adjusted numbers?

also, please note that the jvc image is above and sony below, per andrea's response to my earlier questionOn my monitor, 1920x1200, the bottom images appear sharper!

Thanks for the info. I had suggested a while back that perhaps on/off CR numbers should be reported with a max grayscale deviation from d65, much like amplifier ratings (used to) require a frequency response.

Jason, any chance we could get non RPC adjusted numbers?

Jason, I second HoustonHoyaFan's request. This may go a long way towards explaining the widely varying lumen output values reported by Greg and Jason.

Installation question for those of you gents familiar with the VW50/60 frame.

I'm aware it exhausts to the front and hooks up to the side. I'm throw-challenged so every inch counts. Since I suffer in that dept. ;) how tight can the unit be mounted to wall/ceiling without infuriating the goddess of heat?

Gotta plan for those undervolted 120 mm Panaflos.

ted

Does vw60 display1920x1080 96hz computer image thru HDMI?

On my monitor, 1920x1200, the bottom images appear sharper!

I agree. The bottom pics are definitely preferable. Looking forward to receiving my VW60, it has been shipped already.

I agree. The bottom pics are definitely preferable. Looking forward to receiving my VW60, it has been shipped already.
(I probably should have noted that my eyesight sucks!)
Anyway, since these images are the only visual means I have so far to compare these the RS1/VW60 I greatly appreciate others' perceptions.

Bottom pictures look better on my 1440x900 16x9 Acer monitor that is calibrated.

It looks sharper/more detailed and brighter with less noise in the picture.

But then again I always take screen shots with a grain of salt as there are just to many factors in the mix....

I think what we need is an official VPL-VW60 thread since these babies are about to ship. It'll probably be easier for those of us that get them early to work out the kinks as well...

Thanks for the info. I had suggested a while back that perhaps on/off CR numbers should be reported with a max grayscale deviation from d65, much like amplifier ratings (used to) require a frequency response.
You must do that, otherwise brightness and full-field contrast measurements are TOTALLY meaningless. But you must also calibrate to produce the MAXIMUM light output (and minimum black level) at your chosen dE limit. You can't just use the factory setup even if it produces a good dE grayscale with a minor grayscale tweak, because you can probably get more light output (and possibily better black level) with the same of better grayscale variance for additional calibration effort. You could get numbers that are much too low by not calibrating for the maximum light output at a designated grayscale dE deviation, or numbers that are much too high by allowing the grayscale dE deviation to increase beyond your normal calibrated dE viewing limit. In my reviews I always measure brightness and contrast using the calibrated grayscale shown in the review. Note the first sentence of the Brightness & Contrast Ratio section of the VW60 review, "I made brightness and contrast measurements using the HDMI input with the gray scale calibrated to D65 as described above."

There are lots of things that must be considered to maximize performance when calibrating a projector. I mentioned the RCP (for Sony projectors) and brightness uniformity (for LCoS projectors) issues as two examples for these projectors, but the Auto iris introduces additional issues for DI projectors. It can be a time consuming and exhausting process when calibrating a new projector model for the first time. It often takes several days of adjustments and measurements to fully understand all of the issues and tradeoffs involved to really maximize a projector's performance when doing a review. This is particularly true for LCoS projectors, but also for any projector with a CMS (or partial CMS adjustments) or a DI. But once you go through all of it, you can then usually do subsequent calibrations of the same projector model much quicker.

Does vw60 display1920x1080 96hz computer image thru HDMI?

This is what happened when I tried to feed a 96 and 120 Hz image to the Sony. Right below you can see a Dell 24" 1920 x 1200 fed by the same signal...


1920 x 1080 @60 Hz

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/DSC06455_b.jpg



1920 x 1080 @ 96 Hz

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/DSC06463_b.jpg



1920 x 1080 @120 Hz

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/DSC06468_b.jpg



This is the Dell, to show the actual resolution:

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/img/Sony_VPLVW60/DSC06466_b.jpg


So, the answer is NO!

BTW: pictures above show Emerald Bay @ Lake Tahoe, some of you might recognize this stunning location!

How about via RGB?

Dunno... I don't use "older" connections... :D

Andrea,
What is your impression of the VW60 compared to the BlackWing?

I'll be writing an article on HTProjectors about this with tons of screenshots... can't anticipate right now my impressions! ;)

Jason,

Did you notice any additional brightness in the corners of your units? I installed mine last night and noticed on a black screen I could see a slight slash of light on the upper left and lower right corners. I only spent about an hour with it after the installation so I'll do more investigating tonight.

Mine will be here this morning so I will report back... :)

I didn't notice it in the actual image area...there is a slightly brighter (than black) overscan area, but it didn't not appear in the image.

Unfortunately mine is in the image area, but it is only noticable on black. Also, this could be related to my receiver which is doing upconversion, sometimes on black screens like when switching to a device my screen displays wavey lines on screen. These are really only minor things to pick on, but if there is a way to correct them it would be great.

That doesn't sound like bright corners...

Tried to finish two thoughts in one paragraph which wasn't very clear. They are two seperate issues altogether. When I said "also" I was referring to another problem. I'll try and take some photos tonight.

Pictures are helpful...please email them to me.

I got my VW60 today and I'm happy to say everything looks good on initial inspection. I'm using it with my brand new 135" Carada brilliant white screen.

I won't spoil all the fun by giving my first impressions of performance yet... will post some more in depth comments once I watch some more HD DVD source material.

Edit: seems we really do need an official VW60 thread now! ;)

Actually, I believe there is one at the top of the stickies. ;)

Mine will be here this morning so I will report back... :)

why didnt you report back:(

He did, just not here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11828054#post11828054

I thought that was the official thread. :)

Hi guys,

As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.

I will report these results to Sony today.


Regards,
Ekkehart

Actually, I believe there is one at the top of the stickies. ;)
Oh, that's the official VW60 thread? Strange name but okay.... usually it says something about official owners thread. :confused:

It is a strange thread name... Maybe they can modify it somewhat... :)

Hi guys,

As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.

I will report these results to Sony today.


Regards,
Ekkehart

Yikes, kinda scary. Can a normal user enter the service mode and make adjustments without being terrified - or do we need to do an "ISF"?:(

Hi guys,

As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.

I will report these results to Sony today.


Regards,
Ekkehart
thanks dude, appreciate the feedback, I am sure tons of folks would love to have details on this ;)

-Gary

...In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance...Sounds similar to the info gregr posted.

how would one go into the service menu and make these required adjustments?

Ekkehart,

What do you mean by 'tuning'? I thought you meant 'calibrating', but since you mention that the numbers that you got were not at D65, then I wonder do you mean just doing a basic DVE or Avia calibration with one of your filters?

Miguel.



Hi guys,

As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.

I will report these results to Sony today.


Regards,
Ekkehart

Is it possible to calibrate the primary colors on the VW-60? Also does this PJ overscan the picturematerial like the Sony HS-60?

Thanks