WSR Greg Rogers Sony VPL-VW60 Review, official thread! [Text View]

gregr

09-28-07, 04:04 PM

Alright, two follow-ups if you don't mind. Only one of which is related to the review, and I bet that is the one you may be most willing to answer. ;)

1) A 10-bit processor means that it could take a 10-bit signal, but do you know whether it will take anything higher than 8-bit YCbCr or RGB as an input via HDMI?
All HDMI receivers (all versions) accept 10-bit and 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 signals. (Technically all DVI transmitters and receivers can also transmit/accept 10-bit/12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2). So what matters is the bit depth of the internal processing.

2) (OT) Will the HDG-4000 allow users to specify bit-depth (8, 10 or 12-bit 4:2:2) for the output signal so that we can test these ourselves? :)
Not day one (just didn't have time to implement it for the first release). But you will note on our web page (new feature #4) the HDG-4000 is fully field upgradeable so who knows .... :)

Do let us know when you will be taking pre-orders for the new signal generator. We always like new toys!

We won't take any orders until all the parts have arrived and the first batch of generators are built and tested. I don't want anyone sending us money and then waiting if there are any manufacturing snafu's in the first production run.

romanesq

09-28-07, 04:10 PM

Greg, on the pixel adjustments, the unit sounds great with the ability to fine tune. But exactly how do you do the alignment? Are you striving to have the other two colors sit flat on the green?

I'm not sure if this is the goal of the pixel convergence.

BTW, an excellent review. Very enjoyable and should help a lot of people who value both color and an overall finely tuned projector. I thought the Pearl was a winner and this sounds like they took it to the next level in more than one respect. Your summation was excellent in that regard.

gregr

09-28-07, 04:14 PM

Greg, it seems as if the RCP is the same old one that Sony has used in previous models, right? If so, I assume that as the saturation of a primary is pulled down that luminance also decreases. Did you at any point adjust the primaries so that they were spot on target? And if so, did it throw off the color decoding significantly?

I wonder if luminance could be restored in this situation using outboard RGB luminance controls.It appears to be the same as previous. The luminance changes with changes in the RCP Color control. I did some experimenting with the red and green primaries, but I didn't have much time to really explore the tradeoffs between those changes and the Wide color mode. The Normal color mode was really quite good without the RCP so I put my time into exploring other non-color areas of the projector's performance.

gregr

09-28-07, 04:19 PM

Greg,
How much is the gain in contrast when moving from minimum throw to the maximum throw ratio of the zoom lens?

Nice review, thanks.I didn't measure the CR at the minimum throw since it visually dropped a lot and the brightness was pretty darn good without giving up contrast. I would stick with the middle of the zoom range to the max throw depending on the amount of light you need.

gregr

09-28-07, 04:25 PM

Thanks Greg. Followup question, please. One of two main things keeping me back from the VW-50 was my perception that it was not BRIGHT enough (in addition to a "murky/not clear" sense about the screen). Jason's early review seemed to indicate that the VW-60 (Black Pearl) was not much brighter than the VW-50. Please reiterate about the perceived and actual brightness.
Thanks again !You can see that my lumen numbers are much higher than Jason's and the projector was about 25%-28% brighter than the VW50 I measured in my previous review.

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 04:25 PM

The Normal color mode was really quite good without the RCP so I put my time into exploring other non-color areas of the projector's performance.
That's great! You mentioned the color performance in the normal mode several times in your review and again here, so it sounds like Sony made a good choice (for us accuracy freaks, anyway :D ) by providing a more accurate mode.

Thanks again, Greg!

gregr

09-28-07, 04:27 PM

Just one question about methodology. I wonder if you had considered publishing the raw xyY (or Yuv) data and dE for the primary and secondary colors as you do for the gray scale?I haven't really considered it but I will give it some thought.

gregr

09-28-07, 04:28 PM

Was there any noticeable light spill on either side of a 16:9 image if projected on a scope screen without side masking? This was reported by Kemet, but I have not seen this on earlier Sony's. Thanks.The answer is in the review (Brightness and Color Uniformity section).

R Harkness

09-28-07, 04:29 PM

gregr,

Great review. Has me considering that projector as well.

And I know I'm not the only one trying to decide whether to go JVC RS1/RS2 or Sony Black Pearl. As far as the sharpness issue; it's been generally held that the previous Pearl was a bit softer than the JVC. While you didn't have the JVC and the Black Pearl side by side, can you estimate how the new Pearl likely compares to the JVC RS 1 in terms of image sharpness?

Thanks,

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 04:31 PM

I haven't really considered it but I will give it some thought.
I'm another one who would love to see the raw data published. This would help us put the color deviations into perspective a bit better...a nice augmentation to the CIE u'v' charts.

Grubert

09-28-07, 04:33 PM

Greg:

On the VW50 review (and later 1080p DLP reviews), you commented on the lost detail on the highlights (brightness compression). You suggest this has been solved. Can you confirm it?

gregr

09-28-07, 04:35 PM

Greg, on the pixel adjustments, the unit sounds great with the ability to fine tune. But exactly how do you do the alignment? Are you striving to have the other two colors sit flat on the green?
You align the red and blue images with the green. Sony provides a test pattern with 2 pixel-wide horiz and vert lines. I suspect they did that to sort of mask what happens to the width of the red and blue lines when the adjustment is turned on. It is much easier to do the alignment with single pixel 1080p lines. In that case you align the red and blue lines to minimize the perceived fringing around the single pixel-wide green lines. This is easiest to do if you can input just two colors at a time, which you can do with the HDG-4000 generator or a PC.

TomHuffman

09-28-07, 04:38 PM

I have one observation about Greg's review that he may or may not choose to add to.

The pre-calibration gray scale dE is unusually high (16 at 30 IRE). That indicates that this projector, more than most, will certainly benefit from a full gray scale calibration. Some PJs are relatively accurate out of the box. This one apparently isn't.

toddbee

09-28-07, 04:41 PM

greg,
all right here the million dollar question. how does the image look compared to the JVC rs-1? is i comparable? what attributes stick out from one projector the the other?

heja

09-28-07, 04:43 PM

Greg

Can you give some of your thoughts of the performance of the VW60 compared to the JVC RS1?

gregr

09-28-07, 04:44 PM

That's great! You mentioned the color performance in the normal mode several times in your review and again here, so it sounds like Sony made a good choice (for us accuracy freaks, anyway :D ) by providing a more accurate mode.

Thanks again, Greg!Yes, I talked to them about it. They specifically told me that they had read my previous VW50 review criticism in that regard. I just wished they had put in 3 color space modes. One for SMPTE-C, one for Rec 709, and then their native mode. This is a case where the manufacturers could get what they want (over saturated primaries, which sell more projectors to the masses) and video enthusiasts could also get accurate colors. Everybody wins. Sharp and Yamaha learned that a long time ago.

gregr

09-28-07, 04:50 PM

As far as the sharpness issue; it's been generally held that the previous Pearl was a bit softer than the JVC. While you didn't have the JVC and the Black Pearl side by side, can you estimate how the new Pearl likely compares to the JVC RS 1 in terms of image sharpness?
I didn't have them side by side, but I believe the VW60 was at least as good as the RS-1, plus there was no noticeable color fringing on the VW60 (from a normal viewing distance) using the new panel alignment feature.

RobZ

09-28-07, 05:00 PM

Greg, did the improved sharpness increase the visible pixel structure from a relatively close distance to the screen.

gregr

09-28-07, 05:11 PM

Greg:

On the VW50 review (and later 1080p DLP reviews), you commented on the lost detail on the highlights (brightness compression). You suggest this has been solved. Can you confirm it?The brightness compression hasn't been "solved". It is basically an intrinsic result of a dynamic iris with dynamic gamma. In the VW100 (Ruby) which was the first Sony front projector with a dynamic iris it was quite troublesome because the DI algorithms were so aggressive (to get higher perceived contrast). In the VW50 (Pearl) the aggressiveness was dialed way back so the perceived contrast was not as high in many scenes but the brightness compression was much less obvious. Plus the Auto 2 mode was added, which allowed the user to select an even less aggressive mode for brighter films where shadow detail was not as important and brightness compression was more likely to occur. I think the algorithms have been tweaked again in the VW60 (along with a wider aperture range) and brightness compression is even less obvious. You will note in the review that I still used the Auto 2 mode in several cases to reduce brightness compression. However, I think in many cases the viewer won't even recognize brightness compression without freezing the frame and comparing the Auto mode to the Iris Off mode. So for many people that don't recognize it when it happens it is probably a non-issue. But for other people just knowing that the image gamma is not always exactly as intended is an issue. Even if you do recognize it when it happens, it is usually modest enough to be considered just one of many tradeoffs when picking a projector.

gregr

09-28-07, 05:15 PM

Greg, did the improved sharpness increase the visible pixel structure from a relatively close distance to the screen.Yes, but that is not a negative, it is an improvement in sharpness. The pixel structure was only visible from a close distance.

gregr

09-28-07, 05:16 PM

Gary Murrell

09-28-07, 05:28 PM

here's a good one :p

Greg what do you think of the VW60 compared to a nice high-end CRT unit? ;)

thanks a bunch

-Gary

gonzalc3

09-28-07, 05:28 PM

Greg,

In terms of brightness, is the JVC RS1 brighter than the Black Pearl? Also, on average are the black levels on the RS1 higher than those from the VPL VW60?

Regards,

gregr

09-28-07, 05:34 PM

greg,
all right here the million dollar question. how does the image look compared to the JVC rs-1? is i comparable? what attributes stick out from one projector the the other?

Can you give some of your thoughts of the performance of the VW60 compared to the JVC RS1?I think you should compare my RS-1 review to this review and make your own assessment based on ALL of the details that matter to you. There are clear differences in color accuracy and in native contrast ratio. I suppose those are the biggest issues for most people. Sony wins big on color, JVC wins big on native contrast ratio. Then there are the "do you feel lucky issues" which are convergence, and brightness and color uniformity issues. Sony has gone a long way in the VW60 toward removing the convergence issue (and apparently will take another big step in the VW200). The uniformity was quite good on the VW60 that I reviewed but wasn't so good on the VW50 that I reviewed. So have they "solved" uniformity issues or was I just luckier this time? There are so many other factors to consider that its impossible for me to know how important each one is to you. Brightness, calibration adjustments, input setup options, fan noise, odd performance quirks, etc. etc. There is just no way that I can weight all of the issues based on what is important to you.

gregr

09-28-07, 05:39 PM

here's a good one :p

Greg what do you think of the VW60 compared to a nice high-end CRT unit? ;)
-GaryYou can legally watch HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs using digital signals on the VW60.

Gary Murrell

09-28-07, 05:42 PM

You can legally watch HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs using digital signals on the VW60.
not really what I was looking for Greg :D but sort of true :p

-Gary

Sisyphus

09-28-07, 05:42 PM

What was the native on/off without iris engaged? :)

Thanks!

gregr

09-28-07, 05:43 PM

What's the difference between max contrast with Auto 1 and Auto 2 modes? I didn't like Auto1 much on the VW50, so I'll probably like Auto 2 on the VW60 more too. Is the difference in contrast really noticeable by the eye?The Auto 2 mode produces somewhat less perceived contrast (the minimum aperture setting is larger) but less brightness compression. I used the Auto 2 setting for brighter films where shadow detail is less prominent and you are more likely to run into brightness compression. I used the Auto 1 mode on some darker films that have a lot of shadow detail.

gregr

09-28-07, 05:43 PM

What was the native on/off without iris engaged? :)

Thanks!
It's in the review.

tr6

09-28-07, 05:45 PM

Greg, On the Sony operating manual there is a throw range chart on page 15 and another another one on page70 and they both have different values. When I called Sony they said the throws on page 15 are for table mounting and the throws on page 70 are for ceiling mounting. I don't see how flipping the projector would change the throw range unless by then inverting the image in the menu it would do this. Can you comment on this? Thanks for the review

gregr

09-28-07, 05:46 PM

not really what I was looking for Greg I know, but do you really think I want to get into a debate about CRT projectors while answering questions about the VW60?

gregr

09-28-07, 06:06 PM

Greg,

In terms of brightness, is the JVC RS1 brighter than the Black Pearl? Also, on average are the black levels on the RS1 higher than those from the VPL VW60?

Regards,
At a 12.8 ft throw distance the VW60 was about 16.5% brighter than the RS-1. At max throw the VW60 was about 21% brighter. At 12.8 ft throw, max Lamp, the black levels were about 0.0015 fL for the RS-1 and 0.0018 for the VW-60 (without screen gain)

Ohlson

09-28-07, 06:07 PM

gregr

09-28-07, 06:09 PM

RobZ

09-28-07, 06:14 PM

At a 12.8 ft throw distance the VW60 was about 16.5% brighter than the RS-1. At max throw the VW60 was about 21% brighter. At 12.8 ft throw, max Lamp, the black levels were about 0.0015 fL for the RS-1 and 0.0018 for the VW-60 (without gain screen)

Wow, the black level is pretty similar to RS1 while increasing brightness. Of course another unit could bring a different result.

gregr

09-28-07, 06:17 PM

gregr
Do feel that Sony is receptive for the idea of 3-4 color space modes as well as adding the lightness control to RCP?

What is the most important performance gain possible with adding a good external video processor to vw60?I hope they are receptive to adding another color space mode since that is probably just adding some additional cal constants and a new menu option. But changing the RCP to add an independent lightness adjustment would be a major change in its algorithms that may not be supported by the current hardware and/or be a much larger software change.

A future processor could provide a CMS to get the primaries just right for SMPTE-C and Rec 709. It could also do better 720p scaling, although my 720p viewing is pretty limited. It could also do better SD film scaling as well, although the 480i film mode deinterlacing is especially good in the VW60, so that could be a tradeoff.

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 06:24 PM

It could also do better 720p scaling, although my 720p viewing is pretty limited. It could also do better SD film scaling as well, although the 480i film mode deinterlacing is especially good in the VW60, so that could be a tradeoff.
While most VW-60 owners will be concerned about the internal processing, how about those of us who own video processors? Did you have a chance or can you give us some information as to how "transparent" and free from additional artifacts that the VW-60 is when fed an already processed 1080p signal from a VP?

gregr

09-28-07, 06:37 PM

While most VW-60 owners will be concerned about the internal processing, how about those of us who own video processors? Did you have a chance or can you give us some information as to how "transparent" and free from additional artifacts that the VW-60 is when fed an already processed 1080p signal from a VP?As I mentioned in the review there is slight amount of edge enhancement added to 1080p input signals. It is quite faint, but it isn't "transparent". On the other hand, the VW60 does 4:4:4 processing, while most internal processors do 4:2:2 processing, so it better maintains the color detail that you provide it. It also processes 1080p fine detail without adding color artifacts, which as you know is an issue with the RS-1. So in some sense it's less transparent and in other senses more transparent.

gregr

09-28-07, 06:40 PM

BarbaraStreisand

09-28-07, 06:42 PM

Until the RS2 review Greg.........Peace out!

Gary Murrell

09-28-07, 06:43 PM

I know, but do you really think I want to get into a debate about CRT projectors while answering questions about the VW60?

not looking for a debate, just for your much respected short but sweet opinion between the 2 ;)

thanks a bunch anyway

-Gary

HoustonHoyaFan

09-28-07, 06:47 PM

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 06:48 PM

I said I would spend 3 hours here and it's been over 3 1/2. I have an appointment at 4 pm so I need to stop now. Thanks for reading the review and I hope your questions were answered. See you next time.
Many many thanks again, Greg! It is always a pleasure to learn from the best!

If you are still here, can you give us an idea which projector might be next up on the test block?

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 07:05 PM

you reported a significant increase in the MANSI CR measurement for the VW60 over the VW50
MANSI...HHF, I like it! :)

I have to admit that I wasn't going to consider the VW-60 for my next projector, but given the lumens, CR, improved *MANSI* :D , and most of all, color accuracy, I may have to reconsider, not to mention all of the money I would save in the process.

For anyone considering an LCoS projector, I find this one to be most compelling!

HoustonHoyaFan

09-28-07, 08:01 PM

I have to admit that I wasn't going to consider the VW-60 for my next projector, but given the lumens, CR, improved *MANSI* :D , and most of all, color accuracy, I may have to reconsider, not to mention all of the money I would save in the process.
I would love to find out how the VW60 compares to the Sharp 20K. The low light output of the 20K is keeping me from moving on it.

Gary Murrell

09-28-07, 08:09 PM

MANSI...HHF, I like it! :)

I have to admit that I wasn't going to consider the VW-60 for my next projector, but given the lumens, CR, improved *MANSI* :D , and most of all, color accuracy, I may have to reconsider, not to mention all of the money I would save in the process.

For anyone considering an LCoS projector, I find this one to be most compelling!
I thought you would be pleased with the color accuracy results :p

don't let people get you down dude, keep on truckin' ;)

-Gary

mark haflich

09-28-07, 08:19 PM

I wonder if one builds or buys an HDMI to RGBHV converter that is merged into the innards of his CRT FP, whether the watching and non copying would be illegal. Would anyone prosecute such an action and would a content provider who you purchased the content from so you could watch file an amicus brief on your behalf. While it might be illegal to manufacture and sell such a device, would the use of it for non copying but limited to the software purchaser viewing it be illegal? I think any prosecution or civil suit would be laughed out of court.

Bob Sorel

09-28-07, 08:54 PM

I would love to find out how the VW60 compares to the Sharp 20K. The low light output of the 20K is keeping me from moving on it.
My sentiments EXACTLY!

Robert Whitehead

09-28-07, 09:04 PM

Greg-

A totally subjective question: How close does the VW60 come to delivering the "Pop" of DLP projs.? Thanks for a great review, as always.

Bob

CaspianM

09-28-07, 09:04 PM

Sony has done a nice clean up of vw50 with higher contrast (very close to rs-1), more lumen even over rs-1 less BC, accurate color or simply this one is cherry picked. Just kidding of course.

HoustonHoyaFan

09-28-07, 09:30 PM

What is remarkable is that the 3 d65 calibrated reviews (Cine4Home, Jason, and gregr) have measured almost identical on/off number for max throw, max aperture (iris off) for 3 different pjs!

The two non d65 grayscale measurements (Cine4Home and Jus) have both measured ~6,000:1 max aperture and ~30,000:1 DI.

Other #s for the quants from the WSR review;

~90% increase in DI on/off CR over the Pearl!
~50% increase in max aperture on/off CR over the Pearl!
~40% increase in M-ANSI CR over the Pearl!
~30% increase in brightness over the Pearl!
Clear increase in sharpness over the Pearl!
Clear increase in color accuracy over the Pearl!
Did I miss anything? :)

CaspianM

09-28-07, 09:37 PM

Did I miss anything? :)

Yes you did. He said it had much greater uniformity than Pearl.:)

HoustonHoyaFan

09-28-07, 09:43 PM

Yes you did. He said it had much greater uniformity than Pearl.:) Sold!!!

CaspianM

09-28-07, 09:45 PM

Sold!!!
Tempting!!!

mark haflich

09-28-07, 10:08 PM

Reio-ta. I own several of the Furys and other ones which plug into a slot on the Projector. The Fury has readily accessible RGBHV on its VGA connector and can with a breakout put out put RGBHV on 5 BNCs. I have never used it except plugged into the RGBHV inputs on my projector. But it could be missued. And I seriously doubt its legal. But I don't care because I would never misuse it. I pay for all the HD content that I watch and I don't copy it except for DTV broadcasts on the DVR built into my receiver. The Fury is inferior in performance to plug in cards that I have. Being inferior doesn't mean its bad. Its just there is better. Sorry for getting off topic guys. If anyone wants to discuss this, pm me.

I just read gregs review. As usual a very professional job.

avatarthe

09-28-07, 10:58 PM

Hmmm.... Jason's review showed the RS-1 to be brighter than the black pearl, but you review shows the opposite! Can there be that much variation btw individual projector? This is an important issue for me, guess I'll have to wait for more revews....

At a 12.8 ft throw distance the VW60 was about 16.5% brighter than the RS-1. At max throw the VW60 was about 21% brighter. At 12.8 ft throw, max Lamp, the black levels were about 0.0015 fL for the RS-1 and 0.0018 for the VW-60 (without screen gain)

Andrea Manuti

09-28-07, 11:16 PM

Waiting for the English version, maybe this link could be of some interest...

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/preload.asp?ID=252&PROD=3429

Gary Murrell

09-29-07, 12:04 AM

Waiting for the English version, maybe this link could be of some interest...

http://www.htprojectors.com/htprojectors/preload.asp?ID=252&PROD=3429
be sure and post the english version when it is ready ;)

-Gary

gregr

09-29-07, 04:22 AM

gregr
you reported a significant increase in the MANSI CR measurement for the VW60 over the VW50. While the best DLP is still > 2.5 x the VW60, it has move closer to the median DLPs. Do you see a coorelation in intrascene CR in moving from the VW60 to say the ~500:1 MANSI DLPs? Do you see a difference between 500:1 DLPs to the Sharp 20K at > 800:1?The 500:1 or so DLPs definitely have more image depth than the LCoS projectors in my opinion. And the Sharp projectors with MANSI from about 750:1 to 850:1 have more depth than the 500:1 DLPs. As you may know I thought the Yamaha DPX-1300 was the best 720p projector, but the Sharp 12K had more image depth.

Digital2004

09-29-07, 04:31 AM

well super review as usual
surprised positevely by the brigthness increase, this is welcome ! those machines always tend to be very dim (sharp 10-12K, the marantz ouch ! even the VW100 at 350ansi calibrated)

so the VW60 RS1 and probably RS2 are to be considered bright HT projectors (well able to fire a 120" white screen in a BLACK ROOM).

i found the 12K Sharp depth to be INFERIOR to my HD1. probably due to the 720p resolution.

do you see lcos making more gain in MANSI contrast is there reflective technology limited currently without perhaps adding a fourth panel ?

gregr

09-29-07, 04:37 AM

If you are still here, can you give us an idea which projector might be next up on the test block?I'm not totally certain. It will probably be the Sony VPL-VW200, but I'm also very anxious to see the new Marantz (Dan?). Of course I hope to see the JVC RS-2 as soon as its available and there is a new Projection Designs projector coming. Somewhere along the way I'll do a 3-chip DLP from Digital Projection. And hopefully there will be a new "surprise" projector that comes along. That should keep my schedule busy for a while.

Bob Sorel

09-29-07, 04:51 AM

The 500:1 or so DLPs definitely have more image depth than the LCoS projectors in my opinion. And the Sharp projectors with MANSI from about 750:1 to 850:1 have more depth than the 500:1 DLPs. As you may know I thought the Yamaha DPX-1300 was the best 720p projector, but the Sharp 12K had more image depth.
Thanks, Greg. That helps explain why I like the image from my Z20k Mk. II so much. The image depth and color accuracy are incredible, so my hopes are to get the same qualities from my next 1080p machine...It looks like the Z20k might be it, unless of course the new Marantz performs better than I expect.

gregr

09-29-07, 04:51 AM

I would love to find out how the VW60 compares to the Sharp 20K. The low light output of the 20K is keeping me from moving on it.You should definitely compare those two. I would be a huge fan of the Sharp 20K (for its color accuracy, contrast, image depth, and controls) if they would speed up the color wheel, reduce the fan noise, and boost the lumens by 35%-50% in the highest contrast mode. Seems to me they need a new case/cooling design to accomplish the last two items.

gregr

09-29-07, 04:52 AM

Thanks, Greg. ...You're up late Bob!

Digital2004

09-29-07, 04:54 AM

but hasn"t Sharp decided to abandon the ht market ??

gregr

09-29-07, 05:29 AM

do you see lcos making more gain in MANSI contrast is there reflective technology limited currently without perhaps adding a fourth panel ?A year ago I don't think anyone (outside of JVC) would have predicted what JVC would be able to do with the LCoS full-field (on-off) contrast ratio. Remember we were getting about 2500:1 from LCoS vs 5000:1 or higher from DLP. And look what happened. So I wouldn't dare predict that LCoS MANSI contrast is technology limited now.

Digital2004

09-29-07, 06:23 AM

hello Greg
thanks for the comment.
i think DLP has en edge with the mirroring principle
yeah, amazing the gain jvc has done from 2000:1 HD10K to 19000:1 (at colder temp) on the HD1 RS1. natively.
i hope JVC now releases a 2000ansi machine thank to the 40000:1 panels so we can have 2000ansi and perhaps 15000:1 native.

Robert Whitehead

09-29-07, 08:42 AM

Greg-

I asked earlier how close the VW60 came to delivering the Pop of DLP projs. I believe I know the answer to that question, and it is, "Not very close at all." I believe the so called Pop of DLP projs comes from their higher MANSI contrast ratios, and at this state of technology, LCDs and LCOSs can not deliver on that score.

Interestingly, in another thread, Jason opined that you can, in effect, get addicted to a display technology, especially DLP. He (like me) has only owned DLP projs., and although he has the pick of the best at AVS, he would only go with DLP for his own use.

Any comments on display addiction?

Thanks,
Bob

Bob Sorel

09-29-07, 09:08 AM

You should definitely compare those two. I would be a huge fan of the Sharp 20K (for its color accuracy, contrast, image depth, and controls) if they would speed up the color wheel, reduce the fan noise, and boost the lumens by 35%-50% in the highest contrast mode. Seems to me they need a new case/cooling design to accomplish the last two items.
All I need are the lumens. Even as things stand now, it is between the Z20k and the 15S1 as my next projector...It all depends on how the Marantz comes up for lumens at high CR and just how much they have improved MANSI. Otherwise I will reduce my screen size and go with the Z20k. I hope the 15S1 is next on your list...:)
You're up late Bob!
Actually I was up early to go to work. I burn the candle at both ends.
I asked earlier how close the VW60 came to delivering the Pop of DLP projs. I believe I know the answer to that question, and it is, "Not very close at all." I believe the so called Pop of DLP projs comes from their higher MANSI contrast ratios, and at this state of technology, LCDs and LCOSs can not deliver on that score.
Well, "pop" is a pretty nebulous term, but if you are talking about high intrascene CR and image depth, it is a combination of several factors and MANSI CR is responsible for a good portion of it under many circumstances. Greg's comments about the differences in MANSI between DLPs suggest that I would be happiest with the machine that has the highest MANSI CR, assuming all else equal, and my guess is that you would be too, Bob.

Big Picture

09-29-07, 10:42 AM

Greg,

Can you make any comment about any difference in on screen image motion blur between the VW60 and RS-1?

Thank you.

FerPhobos

09-29-07, 11:19 AM

At a 12.8 ft throw distance the VW60 was about 16.5% brighter than the RS-1. At max throw the VW60 was about 21% brighter. At 12.8 ft throw, max Lamp, the black levels were about 0.0015 fL for the RS-1 and 0.0018 for the VW-60 (without screen gain)

Thank you Greg for your comments.

Can you say us what was the black level you measured for the VW-50 in the same conditions (Auto 1)?

It would be interesting to know if the VW-60 greater contrast has more to do with a lower black level or a highest white level.

FerPhobos

09-29-07, 11:29 AM

Can you confirm the tearing issue reported with a 24p Input?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=886135

Nevertheless, worf in homecinema-fr seems to say that the problem is not present in the VW-60:
"1080p24 que ce soit en liaison avec ma PS3 ou mon PCHT absolument sans aucun tearing "

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29862792&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

Thank you

toddbee

09-29-07, 01:37 PM

So what dlps on the market know compare to the rs1 or the black pearl? Does a 20000 to 1 sxrd or lcos even compare to a 5000 to 1 dlp? Does the higher mansi contrast put then on level contrast wise? Also how do the black levels compare? I work with the bad boy christie 3 chip cinema dlp projector which needs its own room for cooling and that is rated at 2000 to 1, but looks amazing. Just curious how the contrast compares between the two technologies. Thx

Digital2004

09-29-07, 02:43 PM

Tod : you lucky boy ! :) you screen size must be at least 4meters wide i hope and scope. with this monster
the sony and especially the jvc will give much better black bars on a 16.9 screen
on a scope screen the advtange becomes a bit less imho. especially since an isco lens for instance eats a lot of ansi contrast and therefore a dlp will hold better.

Digital2004

09-29-07, 02:44 PM

PBonn

09-29-07, 02:52 PM

I'm curious as to why the contrast ratios decreased with the lamp on low vs. on high. Seems a decrease in brightness would effect the levels of on and off similarly, keeping the contrast ratio identical.
Maybe I need to replace my lamp, even though blacks still aren't totally black, in order to improve the contrast ratio. (~1,800 hours on a Ruby)
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks
Paul

toddbee

09-29-07, 06:09 PM

I actually workwith the christie projector quite frequently and am amazed by the image. Its a 26 foot screen in the theater that it projects on. This is for digital intermediate mastering. Debating on sxrd, lcos or dlp for the house. I had an hd1 dlp in the past and just recently a pearl. Looking at the black pearl, rs1/hd1 or a dlp. Working with the christie its hard to see how these numbers compare between these technologies because that image looks so good even at 2000 to 1 rated contrast. Maybe it has a very high mansi contrast rating?

Ohlson

09-29-07, 06:32 PM

toddbee
Don´t forget the quality of the source you see, it is not exaclty dvds! Also the Christie might project a bright picture and then there is the ANSI thing.

gandley

09-29-07, 09:06 PM

Is the extra ANSI (you guys were cracking me up with the MANSI thing) CR of the vw60 noticable over the vw50? was it like "yeah, it sure looks like the intrascene contrast has improved, i wonder what it measures" or was it more a case of getting the measurement and saying "interesting".

By Andrea's piccys its clear the VW60 has a sharper image over the pearl, its lost that smooth veneer it had.

Final question, does the 'DI' cutting peak white level give the impression that the intrascene contrast of the black pearl is much lower than the RS1? (by memory it looks like the VW60 gave a higher ANSI CR reading than the RS1)

Great review, many thanks for your efforts.

Looking forward to reading Andrea's report now

toddbee

09-29-07, 09:09 PM

yeah she can put down some serious brightness. I think its set for 14 ft l though.

Ian_Currie

09-30-07, 06:22 PM

Can someone tell me how to find this review on Widescreenreview.com? I'm probably being an idiot (I'm a subsriber and had no problems finding the RS1 review last time), but I don't see any link on the main page and even doing an equipment review search turns up nothing...

Then again, I've worked close to 400 hours in the past month so I'm a little fried. :-)

TomHuffman

09-30-07, 07:09 PM

Upper left hand side on the subscriber page.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etlhuffman/article.gif

Ian_Currie

10-01-07, 12:53 PM

Thanks. Yep, there is is, plain as day. I must have been fried. :-)

Jason Turk

10-01-07, 02:36 PM

Hmmm.... Jason's review showed the RS-1 to be brighter than the black pearl, but you review shows the opposite! Can there be that much variation btw individual projector? This is an important issue for me, guess I'll have to wait for more revews....

Remember that yes, every projector varies. I'd bet if Greg took 5 more VW60's he get a decent range of results. I am so confident in that that I am going to test at least 1 or 2 more VW60's as soon as they arrive (hopefully today or tomorrow). I'll post an addendum to what I find.

Tony Costanza

10-01-07, 06:00 PM

It's difficult for me to understand why the variation in projectors can be more than 5%-10%. Is the manufacturing process that bad? Or are there other factors - the lamp for example.
I would purchase a VW60 in a second if I could get a projector that was within 5-10% of gregr's test results. I need the lumens based on screen size and long throw. Really frustrating!

Carey P

10-01-07, 06:09 PM

I'm in the same boat. :confused:

noah katz

10-01-07, 06:32 PM

"It's difficult for me to understand why the variation in projectors can be more than 5%-10%. Is the manufacturing process that bad? Or are there other factors - the lamp for example."

Yes, the lamp brightness tolerance alone is 15 or 20% IIRC.

bobpaule

10-01-07, 07:16 PM

To get a Sony one has to be a deeply religious person, or buy 4 units at a time and return the ones that have defects :)

Scott B

10-01-07, 07:35 PM

I am in the same boat as you. Need every lumen I can get for my 10' wide Screen Research screen.

Tony Costanza

10-01-07, 09:17 PM

It would seem to me that the specs are somewhat fraudulent. Sony should specify the luminance something like -> 650L +- 30%.

Man .. I'm beating this one to death.

Jason Turk

10-01-07, 10:25 PM

Agreed. But Sony isn't the only guilty one. I almost never find the actual specs are what they are posted as. Brightness simply is never as high (when measured at D65).

Contrast is almost always lower as well. But, contrast is measured in labs vs. a "dedicated" HT like mine. I should mention that though the RS1 isn't always at 15000:1 as spec'd, it is one of the only ones that usually averages that range (I have had lower, but also higher (which I have never seen).

The Bogg

10-01-07, 11:13 PM

I am in the same boat as you. Need every lumen I can get for my 10' wide Screen Research screen.

Scott,

Have you seen the VW60 with the CP2 screen? I'm about to buy the combo sight unseen, somewhere around 100 to 110 inches wide in a light controlled room and was just assuming the combo would work out...

jeffwp

10-02-07, 05:51 AM

Greg..........you mentioned in your review that the vw60 does inverse telecine on 1080i .
Does this mean that someone with a 1080i only hd player can input this and the sony will convert this to 1080p24 and output it as such?
jeff. melbourne .australia

Scott B

10-02-07, 07:04 AM

Scott,

Have you seen the VW60 with the CP2 screen? I'm about to buy the combo sight unseen, somewhere around 100 to 110 inches wide in a light controlled room and was just assuming the combo would work out...

I have not seen the VW60 at all, however, I have seen the RS1 on the exact same screen as I have and the combination looked VERY nice. The lamp was on high mode and the projector was positioned at minimum throw, so it would have been producing 600-700 lumens resulting in an image with around 10 FtL. I would assume that the VW60 would be fine with a CP2 screen 100-110 inches wide provided you position the VW60 at minimum throw and use it with the DI engaged.

treefrog100

10-02-07, 06:03 PM

Well, shoot. I'm finishing up my HT/basement project and was about to pull the trigger on the RS1, and now I read this. Now I don't know what to do. I'm a newbie here and want to know to which projector you all think is the better overall projector. I know this is very subjective, but I need other opinions and don't know where else to go. Does anyone think one is a better overall projector than the other? Why or why not? It seems to me like the general performance is comparable between the RS1 and VW60, but the Sony is brighter. Is this reasonably accurate? Thanks!

Kevin Snyder

10-02-07, 08:10 PM

treefrog,

Probably not the best place for your question. There simply is not a simple, satisfactory answer to your question. Please take some time and read, read, read through several of the posts in this forum, which will provide you with all the info you need to make an intelligent decision.

There are so many factors to take into account, just a few of which include color decoder accuracy, on/off contrast, ANSI contrast, brightness, panel convergence, display artifacts, brightness compression, internal processing among many others I've read.

I think you'll find a general consensus of preference for each of the above named topics with fairly brief reading of several topics at the very top of this forum.

Kevin

Kevin Snyder

10-02-07, 08:37 PM

Just to add something that may or may not actually be helpful!!!:

I began my home theater life with a Sony VPH1271Q CRT projector, and I absolutely loved it. I toyed with it (i.e. astigmatism adjustment, etc) endlessly to the point where the picture was perfect for me. I sold the projector when I moved, though. I am on the verge of creating a new, dedicated theater room in a home I am building. I have thus begun to search in detail for a new front projector. As much as I loved the Sony CRT, I just don't want to deal with lugging around and mounting another 145lb projector.

I began my search looking at DLP front projectors. I don't care for the 'edgy' quality of the picture. I want something smoother, like a CRT. LCoS seems to fit the bill in this regard. I am thus considering both the JVC and Sony. Color accuracy is paramount to me. I believe the slightly oversaturated greens of the JVC will distract from my viewing enjoyment. +1 for the Sony. Next, I love the ability to panel converge in .1 pixel increments. I am extremely anal and actually briefly adjusted the RGB convergence of my old Sony CRT before each movie viewing. +2 for the Sony. ANSI contrast is similar in the projectors. While not as good as a DLP, probably still better than my old CRT, which was fine to my eyes. Off/on contrast clearly favors the JVC in this case. This is a bit troubling to me. I could just go with the Sony and use Auto iris 1, which would even best the JVC. Problem then arises with brightness compression. I don't like it. Given that I seem to favor the other major attributes of the Sony, though, I will probably do 1 of 2 things. First, I may adjust down the manual iris of the Sony to the point where I have adequate brightness on my smallish 106" screen (i.e 15-16 foot lamberts) and see how I feel about the on/off contrast at that point. If I don't like it, I may compromise and use Auto iris 2 to get me closer to the JVC without the same level of brightness compression issues that would be present on Auto iris 1. THEN I will only have to decide how quickly to have the iris adjust itself. Seems to me thus far that FAST is TOO fast and SLOW will eliminate some of the benefits of the auto iris itself. Probably best to stick with normal in that case.

Lastly, it seems to me in my reading thus far that the VW60 picture is somewhat cleaner in terms of artifacts than the JVC. Don't know if everyone agrees with that sentiment thus far, though. Also seems in my reading thus far, though, that the internal processing of the JVC bests the Sony. I'll have to be sure to feed a 1080p signal from my sources.

So, that is my thought process in comparing these projectors. I have certain desires which one of the projectors seems to meet while compromising a bit on the other issues. Your priorities may vary.

Rant off.!!!

Kevin

ricwhite

10-02-07, 09:44 PM

I hope I'm not going to regret this but . . .

what exactly is brightness compression?

HoustonHoyaFan

10-02-07, 09:59 PM

I hope I'm not going to regret this but . . .

what exactly is brightness compression?
See post #52 from this thread!

ricwhite

10-02-07, 10:03 PM

See post #52 from this thread!

A . . . yeah. I read that post (and this whole thread). It referred to "brightness compression" several times but never fully explained what it was. I do some research elsewhere.

Edit: I take it from reading of several threads and articles that "brightness compression" results in high white areas being somewhat crushed or blown to the point where there is a lack of detail in those areas. Brightness compression is notable in projectors with DI activated. I take it that "brightness compression" is relatively rare and the positives of DI far outweigh this negative artifact. I assume that all projectors using a DI will have some level of "brightness compression".

HoustonHoyaFan

10-02-07, 10:14 PM

A . . . yeah. I read that post (and this whole thread). It referred to "brightness compression" several times but never fully explained what it was.Hopefully gregr will not mind me quoting from his 2 year old Ruby review, since he coined the term, and has explained it on the forum in the past

The Auto Iris provides a dramatic improvement in virtually all dark scenes. When the droids are imprisoned in the Jawa transporter there is substantial bright image detail, but the background is hazy, which obscures image definition and depth in the Iris Off mode. In the Iris On mode the black level is lower and the haze is gone, but the detail is also darker, so the image is still partially veiled. But in the Auto mode the detail is brightened to its original levels and the image contrast is much improved.

The dynamic iris produces marvelous images in dark scenes, but there is a price to pay for this performance. An ideal Auto Iris would always maintain the same image brightness that is produced in the Iris Off mode, but that’s not possible. The iris aperture would be fully open whenever there is a peak brightness signal, and then reduce to minimum size to lower the black level in the darkest scenes. At an intermediate scene brightness the iris aperture would be partially reduced to improve the contrast in those scenes. However, image brightness is also reduced when the iris aperture is reduced, so the signal levels must be increased to maintain the original brightness levels. But it’s impossible to produce the original maximum brightness level when the aperture is reduced, and as the aperture is made smaller the peak brightness that can be created becomes lower. So, to maintain the original brightness levels in the darker areas, the brightest levels must be compressed to avoid clipping as the aperture size is reduced. In effect, the contrast in bright areas is reduced for improved contrast in dark areas. When the iris aperture is reduced in scenes that have very bright areas there is a substantial “brightness compression” artifact as the brighter levels are compressed together and bright detail is lost.

The trash compactor scene in Star Wars is an example of a moderately dark scene where the contrast is considerably improved without significant brightness compression. But, in the opening scene of Star Wars, after the star cruiser flies by, there is brightness compression in its engine nozzles. There is detail within the engine nozzles using the Iris On or Iris Off modes, but when the Auto Iris mode is enabled that detail disappears, and there is a white glare surrounding the engines. A more dramatic example of brightness compression occurs as the first battle is about to take place on the ship. The fixtures lining the white interior walls are visible through most of the scene, but just prior to the storm troopers bursting through the door the fixtures are almost completely obscured by brightness compression. If you watch this scene, you can’t miss it, because suddenly the fixtures on the wall practically disappear when the Auto Iris is enabled. These examples illustrate that, in some cases, you may not realize that the image has been degraded unless you have previously seen it without the Auto Iris mode enabled. In the last example, the brightness compression is unmistakably obvious.

The most common situations that produce severe brightness compression are brightly lit background windows, lamps, and light fixtures. In the opening scene of Back To The Future, the detail in the brightest windows in Doc’s lab is obscured, but the detail in the darker windows is mostly unaffected. Later, the bright white portion of the Twin Pines Mall sign blurs the edges of the green pine trees on the sign and narrows the lettering on the sign. On the other hand, the contrast in the wet parking lot is improved, as is the contrast in many other scenes, including when Marty plows the DeLorean into Peabody’s barn and the farmer stands at the doorway holding a bright lantern. The bridal suite scene at the beginning of Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me provides examples of how brightness compression affects lamps and light fixtures.

For every example of brightness compression there are more examples where the Auto Iris produces virtually CRT quality images. Dark City looks incredible, as I have never seen it before on a fixed-pixel projector. Manhattan also looks spectacular, with an exceptional black level and excellent contrast as Woody and Michael Murphy walk along the street after leaving Elaine’s. There are some occasional examples of brightness compression, but they are surpassed by the improved contrast and image depth throughout the film.

IIRC a year later with the intro of the Pearl, the DI algorithms had been fine tuned such that those specific cases were not visible on the Pearl. The Black Pearl as gregr stated is even further improved.

ricwhite

10-02-07, 10:19 PM

Hopefully gregr will not mind me quoting from his 2 year old Ruby review, since he coined the term, and has explained it on the forum in the past

Thanks for the additional information, HoustonHoyaFan. I appreciate it.

Kevin Snyder

10-02-07, 11:09 PM

Yeah, HoustonHoyaFan, thanks for the good read.
I actually did not realize that the algorithms had been improved substantially. I suppose it is up to each of us individually to decide where to set the iris based on preference. I really hope that AutoIris1 is not objectionable. I would love to keep the >20,000:1 ratio!

Kevin

lovingdvd

10-03-07, 12:34 AM

IIRC a year later with the intro of the Pearl, the DI algorithms had been fine tuned such that those specific cases were not visible on the Pearl. The Black Pearl as gregr stated is even further improved.

Nonetheless, one should still go into the VW60 (or any DI based projector for that matter) knowing that they are sacrificing peak white in exchange for the benefits of a DI.

What I'd really like to see is a projector with the refinements and advantages of the VW60, combined with the native resolution of the RS1 (no DI).

JVC is way ahead of Sony with regards to native CR. Its hard to imagine that in the year that JVC managed to improve their panels to go from an already whooping 15,000:1 CR to an astounding 30,000:1, all that Sony has done on the native CR front is go from about 3,000:1 to 6,000:1. What's up with that?

Why doesn't Sony just buy the JVC division already and incorporate these panels into their projectors and high end TVs?...

Bob Sorel

10-03-07, 04:22 AM

Why doesn't Sony just buy the JVC division already and incorporate these panels into their projectors and high end TVs?...
So next year's model would be the Sony RS-3? :D

joerod

10-03-07, 07:19 AM

Damn, good review. I am getting closer and closer to selling my Ruby. I really do want to be able to do 1080p/24 one day straight into a pj. I think investing more than 5,000 for a pj these days is not the way to go. I will tkae a substantial bath on my Ruby today but at least if I were to get a BLACK PEARL (cracks me up) it won't be such a hard hit if I decide to sell it 2 years from now...

RobZ

10-03-07, 09:06 AM

it won't be such a hard hit if I decide to sell it 2 years from now...

Very true. I sold my Pearl yesterday but do not feel that it was to bad of a loss for the upgrade. When I spent over $6k on a projector and sold it a year later at a nearly 70% loss, that sucks.

The Bogg

10-03-07, 09:25 AM

The lamp was on high mode and the projector was positioned at minimum throw, so it would have been producing 600-700 lumens resulting in an image with around 10 FtL. I would assume that the VW60 would be fine with a CP2 screen 100-110 inches wide provided you position the VW60 at minimum throw and use it with the DI engaged.

Hmmmm...I was thinking of mounting it further back than min throw, does it not have the light output for that size screen from close to max throw?

Scott B

10-03-07, 10:08 AM

Hmmmm...I was thinking of mounting it further back than min throw, does it not have the light output for that size screen from close to max throw?

I don't remember exactly how much light the VW/60 / RS1 outputs at maximum throw, but I think it is around 500 lumens in high lamp mode (maybe a bit more for the VW60 if you go by WSRs numbers). There is definitely quite a drop in light output. You would probably still be fine with a 100" wide SR screen provided you have no ambient light whatsoever in the room. With a 110" wide SR screen you are probably going to wish for more light output which means moving the projector closer to the screen. You may also want to plan on replacing the lamp every few hundred hours.

joerod

10-03-07, 11:14 AM

So does the VP60 sony logo light up when it is on like my Ruby? :)

joerod

10-03-07, 02:57 PM

I just ordered a BLACK PEARL from AVS so I will post about it soon... :)

Lone Cloud

10-03-07, 03:46 PM

I bought too. From AVS.

It's my very first projector, so I'm facing a project. I'm aware through the reading that it's going to be a compromise. You lose certain things and gain others. Then I'll have the troubling quality control issue - large variations between units of the same model. I did it though. I'll order my screen soon.

I figure it'll take me a few weeks to set it all up - I an installing it in a wall on a shelf.
I'm also recessing my audio and video components in another wall.

jaaybags

10-03-07, 09:45 PM

I.m new to this site. When you say you ordered from AVS does that mean you ordered on this site. I can't seem to find any info about ordering on this site.

JJay

10-03-07, 10:17 PM

Nonetheless, one should still go into the VW60 (or any DI based projector for that matter) knowing that they are sacrificing peak white in exchange for the benefits of a DI.

What I'd really like to see is a projector with the refinements and advantages of the VW60, combined with the native resolution of the RS1 (no DI).

JVC is way ahead of Sony with regards to native CR. Its hard to imagine that in the year that JVC managed to improve their panels to go from an already whooping 15,000:1 CR to an astounding 30,000:1, all that Sony has done on the native CR front is go from about 3,000:1 to 6,000:1. What's up with that?

Why doesn't Sony just buy the JVC division already and incorporate these panels into their projectors and high end TVs?...

I would vote for high native with a DI--after all every pj with a DI has the ability to turn it off if desired..not surprisingly, very few ever do.

Also, isn't there some talk on these forums that the method that JVC used to get the very high native crs may also have some other non-desirable effects on pq?

scottyb

10-03-07, 10:40 PM

I.m new to this site. When you say you ordered from AVS does that mean you ordered on this site. I can't seem to find any info about ordering on this site.

Call or email Jason, tell him scottyb sent ya.

Jason Turk
877-823-4452
jason@avscience.com

Scottyb

joerod

10-03-07, 11:04 PM

Oh yeah, call them! :)

John Mason

10-04-07, 10:06 AM

joerod

10-04-07, 12:34 PM

If that is the case then thank God for my crystalio II! :eek:

BTW, my VP60 just arrived!!! :)

gregr

10-04-07, 04:55 PM

Someone raised (about post #105) a question about " screen image motion blur" and gregr's review comment regarding resolution pumping (blurring) with slight movement during Conan's (NBC) show really grabbed my attention. Recall some previous hardware reviews, perhaps involving the newest pixel-by-pixel deinterlacing chips, that this resolution pumping and motion blurring had been practically eliminated. Perhaps it's only a factor with original 1080/60i-sourced material (interlaced TV cameras vs 24p film/video), but can't imagine having to watch most fine 1080/60i details becoming blurred with slight motion. Seems this would require a costly external processor to cure. Great review. -- JohnAll motion-adaptive deinterlacing (only used for video sources , not film sources) produces some resolution pumping. There is often a tradeoff between static resolution and resolution pumping with motion. There are also differences between processors in avoiding jaggies, line twitter, and flicker on static vs. moving images.

Jason Turk

10-04-07, 05:30 PM

Generally that is the way with electronics, they are worth less after purchase. And specifically computers and projectors....both technologies move so fact that they quickly become outdated (so to speak).

joerod

10-05-07, 01:03 AM

I've had the new BLACK PEARL set up and running now for a few hours. Feeding it 1080p/23.98 for HD DVD and Blu ray is the sweet spot! :eek: Quick comparisons to my Ruby were very easy to spot. As many have reported SHARPNESS level seems much higher on the VW60. In fact, I have not had a pj this sharp since my DLP days. Since I just turned it on it is to early to do any real calibrating but I will say the colors were very nice. As GregR reported the NORMAL mode is the ticket. I also liked gamma 3 on the Ruby and the same holds true with the VW60. I did spend a good amount of time tweaking the image with my crystalio II. Having 2 HDMI outs is very helpful sine the VP60 has 2 HDMI ins. I use one for 1080p/60 (DirecTV, DTHEATER, SD dvds or anything else) and then I use the second HDMI for 1080p/23.98 from HD DVD and Blu ray. I will say the colors on the Ruby are very nice and it took me awhile to get the VW60 near them. Where the VW60 excelled was the main reason I purchased one from AVS. The 1080p/23.98 picture image (judder free) looked amazing. That is where it passed my Ruby in performance. In 1080p/60 I would lean towards the Ruby because of its rich colors. When I put in a few HD movies even my Wife was impressed. I will say watching DirceTV the guide was obviously more sharper then before. Words on the screen are more intense. I know I took a huge bath going to the VP60 and selling my Ruby but I will dry off when I am watching Blu ray and HD DVD this Winter. ;)

BangoO

10-05-07, 09:04 AM

Thank you joerod.

I currently have Ruby and a Lumagen HDQ, so I really don't care about the 1080p24 ability of the Black Pearl.
I'm thinking about replacing my Ruby for a Black Pearl for 2 reasons: price depreciation and convergence setting (hence sharpness improved).
Do you think this is the right choice, and why ?

Thank you ;)

Scott B

10-05-07, 09:32 AM

th8ter

10-05-07, 09:45 AM

joerod what are you finding on fast moving action like life sports and motion blur? Can tell a big difference on this not using your external processor?

joerod

10-05-07, 03:04 PM

Doesn't the Lumagen HDQ do 1080p/24? That would be a BIG reason to get the VW60. I mounted the BLACK PEARL exactly wher my Ruby was at which is about 15 feet away from my 120.5" Silverstar. Since it is brand new it is not fair to compare brightness but I would say they are about the same. I think the lamp will hold up better than the Rubys. I watched some football lastnite and I went back and forth using the pj and my VP. Of course I like my VP (crystalioII) better which is why I spent good coin getting it. Without it though the VW60 did a very good job. At first I did notice a little noise in the blacks but after I did a little tweaking they turned into a good, inky, clean, deep blacks.
I am very impressed at how well this pj performs. Like everything else technology gets much better while pricing comes down. The SHARPNESS is again one of the sharpest projectors I have seen. Combine that with a good HD image (like HD DVD or Blu ray at 1080p/23.98) and call it a day! :) I could spend twice this on a different pj but honestly it would not be a night and day difference. This new Black Pearl will and does outperform many other pjs in and above its price range... :cool:

BangoO

10-05-07, 04:02 PM

Yes the Lumagen does 1080p24, but it also does 1080p48 for the Ruby, so 1080p24 on the VW60 is not an advantage for me ;)
Now sharpness is... I've put my Ruby on sale and I'll see what happens...

joerod

10-05-07, 04:04 PM

Believe me, I compared 1080p/48 on the ruby's DVI and 1080p/24 on the WV60's HDMI... They do not compare! ;)

joerod

10-05-07, 06:11 PM

I will check that out tonite. So far I have only messed with 23.98. :)

joerod

10-05-07, 06:13 PM

I another note I also really am impressed with the remote. It has plenty of direct adjustment buttons on it. It also lights up nicely...

rgould1669

10-05-07, 10:05 PM

joerod

I see you have a z5 .how dose it compare?

WOLVERNOLE

10-05-07, 10:13 PM

joerod,

How do you find the brightness of the VW60 as compared to the Ruby or other projectors that you may have viewed? Approximately what throw ratio do you have the VW60 set to? What size and gain is your screen?

Joerod-

Scott asked this earlier today, and I was wondering about the brightness as well, because the lumens numbers have NOT been very impressive. Could you address these for us. Hey, thanks for the info you've shared thus far. It really is helpful. ;)

joerod

10-06-07, 12:08 AM

The Z5 is my outdoor pj. I use it with a 242" blimpscreen. It is 720p but it will accept a 1080p resolution. It is nice but it does not compare to the Black Pearl. Especially with all the features! I checked out the Panel Alignment tonight and was very happy knowing I could dial it in perfectly. It reminded me of my old 65" CRT sony wv700 RPTV when manually doing convergence. :D That feature enough is worth it!

As for brightness, so far I have to admit I need to wear sunglasses. Of course I am still below 10 hours so the lamp has not settled down yet. Speaking of lamps, I have to admit I can breathe easier knowing the lamps are less than half the price of the Rubys. At those prices I can keep 2 spares! :eek: Watching the baseball playoffs and some football I found myself changing color to WIDE. The grass was such a nice green and the uniforms looked vivid and rich. For movies I still would use NORMAL though. I also checked out Cars and Pirates of the Carribean on StarzHD and they both looked unbelievable. The amount of detail with sharpness was perfect. Also the colors were spot on. This pj is going to turn more heads... ;)

D_B_0673

10-06-07, 04:39 AM

Joerod, does the black pearl have the new sony ability to dial in convergence to within a1/2 pixel for each color or is that only on the upper end pj

Semisentient

10-06-07, 07:22 AM

Joerod, does the black pearl have the new sony ability to dial in convergence to within a1/2 pixel for each color or is that only on the upper end pj

I believe the Black Pearl can be dialed in in .1 pixel increments. It brings a tear to a CRTer's eye.

joerod

10-06-07, 08:22 AM

Sorry. :) It is really cool being able to converge like that. And it gives you more peace of mind knowing that convergence is about as good as it can be...

Wet1

10-06-07, 09:43 AM

How is the MC at the corners with the center dialed in?

joerod

10-06-07, 10:28 AM

Also, 1080p/48 looks as good as 1080p/24 HDMI. So no worries for you 1080p/48 folks. :)

joerod

10-06-07, 10:28 AM

My corners are excellent. Of course I could have gotten lucky... :D

mnn1265

10-06-07, 04:41 PM

My corners are perfect as well... the picture is phenomenal using HD DVD source out of my HTPC via HDMI. Wow, colors, sharpness and dark levels are fantastic. In fact the out-of-the-box settings were more than enough to light up my 135" Carada BW screen (bat cave). Damn could have gone bigger!!! :D

I just moved into my new house but will post some more details soon.

Just a note, my new Paradigm signature 100's, CC690, servo 15 and back/surrounds (with Anthem amp) sound fantastic and along with the VW60 makes a very impressive HT experience - or at least what I've seen in the first day playing with it. Can't wait to see what this HT can do fully tweaked! :)

elmalloc

10-06-07, 05:01 PM

CR is crazy per unit according to cine4home, without calibration, it varies wildly (3000 to 1 to 6500 to 1).

joerod

10-06-07, 06:06 PM

Pretty much I feel completely the opposite of your post which is why I went with the Black Pearl. :D

elmalloc

10-06-07, 06:13 PM

joerod has a ton of mula can he sprae some for me HHEEHE ....please.
=D

Cine4Home

10-06-07, 07:33 PM

If I can be guaranteed 15,000:1 CR with the Sanyo PLV-Z2000, I'm getting that. If the Sanyos can get at least 15,000:1, even with a IFC calibration, at more than $1,500 less I can afford to get it calibrated. I don't see why I would want to risk getting a unit that's even less contrast than the original Pearl! I could care less about the Black Pearl being "sharper" and the convergence control. IMHO the colors were just fine too with the settings posted by SOWK, so colors aren't an issue with the Pearl either. I have 20/15 vision and from about two feet from a Pearl on a 92" FH SST, I didn't think it was "soft" at all. It's a shame that Sony makes such a great product and then can't get their act together to make sure every single unit is OOTB exactly the same as all the other units. Sony did the same thing by rushing out the PS3 before it was ready and had to release a ton of patches.

I am working on the Z2000 preview at the moment. The Z2000 has quite some potential. It is somewhat disappointing though that the dynamic Iris has not been improved compared to the Z4 / Z5. We made some modifications and developed a Z2000 "Ultra" Edition (like we did with the Mitsu HC5000), which reached actually 3800:1 native D65-contrast.. around 7500:1 with DI...

About the VW60, we will check more units in the coming weeks and let you guys know...

Regards,
Ekkehart

HoustonHoyaFan

10-06-07, 08:17 PM

About the VW60, we will check more units in the coming weeks and let you guys know...When will we see a production review with brightness measurements?

joerod

10-07-07, 12:42 AM

gregr

10-07-07, 02:51 AM

CR is crazy per unit according to cine4home, without calibration, it varies wildly (3000 to 1 to 6500 to 1).Quoting numbers without calibration is meaningless. The only thing that matters is what it does after careful calibration. These LCoS DI projectors are not as easy to calibrate as a DLP projector. It can often take some effort to optimize their total performance.

Cine4Home

10-07-07, 08:08 AM

Quoting numbers without calibration is meaningless. The only thing that matters is what it does after careful calibration. These LCoS DI projectors are not as easy to calibrate as a DLP projector. It can often take some effort to optimize their total performance.

Native contrast obviously influences calibrated contrast. Very surprising that I have to mention that here...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Cine4Home

10-07-07, 08:11 AM

When will we see a production review with brightness measurements?

As soon as we have seen enough units to make a reliable review. These deviations show that reviews of single test units (normally picked samples), dont give accurate results - at least when it comes to this Sony...

Regards,
Ekkehart

BangoO

10-07-07, 08:18 AM

Believe me, I compared 1080p/48 on the ruby's DVI and 1080p/24 on the WV60's HDMI... They do not compare! ;)
Sharpness-wise or also anything else ?
What about the Ruby's HDMI then ? (when used at 60Hz obviously)

Bob Sorel

10-07-07, 09:04 AM

Native contrast obviously influences calibrated contrast. Very surprising that I have to mention that here...
How are you measuring native contrast? If I understand correctly, you are measuring out of the box, uncalibrated contrast, and that is far different than native contrast, as uncalibrated contrast can vary wildly from one machine to the next, though I feel sure that there are also variations in native contrast as well, though I wouldn't expect those variations to be as extreme as uncalibrated variations. Or am I misunderstanding you?

HoustonHoyaFan

10-07-07, 10:52 AM

...As announced I checked 4 different VW60 today and tuned them. The results showed quite a deviation between units. The best machine actually reached a native contrast of 6500:1 (DI 31000:1), the worst machine only 3500:1 (11000:1). Note that these values are maximum native, not D65! + maximum zoom (biggest possible picture).

I checked for reasons for these deviations: Main reason are not perfect brightness settings in the service menu. I readjusted RGB-brightness levels and could raise native contrast to about 5000:1 for all machines. Also the DI-programming showed deviation which had to be corrected.

In other words: 3 out of the 4 machines needed some major readjustment in the service menu in order to get maximum performance. Black level could not be corrected by the normal brightness setting, service menu was obligatory.Sounds like detailed service menu tuning needs to be done to get optimal performance, as gregr suggested.

What was the final calibrated/tuned numbers on the 4 units?

joerod

10-07-07, 11:17 AM

I have not went into the service menu yet. Is it the same code as the Rubys?

I was talking about sharpness when comparing the Ruby and the Black Pearl. I also feel like the Black Pearl is smoother... At 60hz 1080p HDMI they are nearly identical. As Alan mentioned the Ruby may still have an edge with richer color but after tweaking some you can get them to look nearly identical. Of course the Black Pearl still wins because it is much sharpner. Of course that is my taste so those who like a softer image might lean the other way. I am heading down there today to play more...

John Mason

10-07-07, 11:27 AM

I only watched DirecTV HD tonite and I was completely happy with the performance of the VW60. After working a little with colors and black level I was able to take it to the next level. Football helmets looked so detailed with their painted color that I thought they looked wet. I had to double check to make sure it wasn't raining! :eek: There were a few good movies on that also looked impressive. I am now approaching 15 hours on the lamp so maybe it will settle down some. Even Skinamax HD looked terrific! :eek: Almost to good which is why I am just now posting... :D And again with the sharper image I am seeing a little more detail in close-ups. I was watching Wedding Crashers and some of the details even on the doors (when Owen would look through the door window) looked to good. Even more scary is a close-up of Lemmony Snickets. You can see Jim Carey's make-up perfectly. Have I mentioned how SHARP this pj is yet? ;)
Thanks for the viewing details. Wondered whether this all was with your VP. Greg's review, as I posted earlier, mentioned some resolution pumping while viewing NBC late night (Conan), which like the football helmets involves deinterlacing original 1080/60i. And while gregr wrote above all such (non-24p) deinterlacing involves some resolution pumping, I still recall one or more reviews indicating such pumping wasn't noticeable. Recall mention of noticeable resolution pumping (other hardware) on the jacket tweed pattern of a late show guest that blurred with just a shrug of his shoulder; that is, going from razor-sharp static image to (presumably slightly) blurred from the TV field deinterlacing. -- John

joerod

10-07-07, 11:35 AM

I actually went back and forth. Of course I love my crystalio II becuse I can tweak the picture so it is exactly the way I like it. :) But I will say going straight into the Black pearl the picture looked excellent. I did not see any pumping that was considered annoying to the point where it was unwatchable. I did see slight signs but those were few and very far between. By no means should that be considered a deal breaker. This pj has outperformed my Ruby and I suspect it will outperform many pjs in and above its price class... I really am impressed with its performance. Sony adding panel alignment to tweak convergence should make this pj a done deal for many...

HoustonHoyaFan

10-07-07, 12:08 PM

... And while gregr wrote above all such (non-24p) deinterlacing involves some resolution pumping, I still recall one or more reviews indicating such pumping wasn't noticeable...Noticeable is a vague term! Do you recall on which processor or projector? How did the processer/pj do on line twitter, jaggies, or flicker? :)

RobZ

10-07-07, 02:39 PM

Ekkehart, do you find the Sanyo's performance on par with the VW60? If so, what a bargain priced projector.

John Mason

10-07-07, 03:03 PM

Noticeable is a vague term! Do you recall on which processor or projector? How did the processer/pj do on line twitter, jaggies, or flicker? :)
Afraid not. Been avoiding a long search. :-) Just that the no (or maybe virtually none) vs observed resolution pumping (this gregr review) stuck. Could have been another high-end projector...or a video processor review. Likely seen within the past year. Can't recall comments in the reviews about the other factors. -- John

HoustonHoyaFan

10-07-07, 09:09 PM

Afraid not. Been avoiding a long search. :-) Just that the no (or maybe virtually none) vs observed resolution pumping (this gregr review) stuck. Could have been another high-end projector...or a video processor review. Likely seen within the past year. Can't recall comments in the reviews about the other factors. -- JohnYou are giving an impression that the VW60 has problematic resolution pumping, while other unnamed products do not. I believe gregr has already explained his post, so I will leave it alone.:)

gregr

10-07-07, 09:18 PM

Native contrast obviously influences calibrated contrast. Very surprising that I have to mention that here...

Regards,
EkkehartWhat is the native contrast of an uncalibrated projector compared to the native contrast of the same projector calibrated? Answer: It depends entirely on how "uncalibrated" it is. i.e. there is no meaningful native contrast figure for an uncalibrated projector because you haven't stated how uncalibrated it is. I'm surprised I have to mention that here .....

gregr

10-07-07, 09:22 PM

These deviations show that reviews of single test units (normally picked samples), dont give accurate results - at least when it comes to this Sony...

Regards,
Ekkehart
You have no facts to say that Sony hand picked a sample for my review. That is an irresponsible thing to say. My sample was a production unit and you owe Sony an apology.

joerod

10-07-07, 11:58 PM

After tweaking (and calibrating) my WV60 the last day or so it is plenty bright. ;)

Bob Sorel

10-08-07, 08:19 AM

What is the native contrast of an uncalibrated projector compared to the native contrast of the same projector calibrated? Answer: It depends entirely on how "uncalibrated" it is. i.e. there is no meaningful native contrast figure for an uncalibrated projector because you haven't stated how uncalibrated it is
That was what I was trying to say with my tongue twisted, poorly worded, grammatically incorrect post earlier. That's what I get for posting in a rush as I leave for work.

John Mason

10-08-07, 08:36 AM

You are giving an impression that the VW60 has problematic resolution pumping, while other unnamed products do not. I believe gregr has already explained his post, so I will leave it alone.:)
As mentioned, just reporting what I'd read (from memory) comparing resolution pumping from earlier reviews versus the VW60 review. But just to see if I was recalling in error, went back through some '07 WSR gregr reviews using original-1080i video broadcasts:

Jan.'s XV-Z20000U review commented: "Resolution pumping was also more apparent with Sharp's deinterlacing." (That's video deinterlacing with Sharp's own video processor, or CV-IC).

March's Optoma HD81 review: "Resolution pumping was very minor." (Gennum VXP processor.)

May's JVC RS1 review: "Images were sharp with excellent detail and extremely fine textures, and only minor resolution pumping with movement." (Gennum VXP processor.)

Nov.'s Sony VW60 review, paraphrased per gregr's no-quote request: He reported excellent static sharpness and definition, and noticed modest resolution pumping that caused fine details to blur on a talk-show host's shirt when he moved while giving his monologue. (Didn't spot mention of video processor; maybe proprietary, as with Sharp's.)

That's the motion-blurring references I noticed. Since I read the other reviews throughout '07, I might have mistakenly 'blended' some review comments about "no" line twitter mentioned with certain models and, erroneously, "no" resolution pumping (never published). But there seems to be a distinction made with the Sharp and Sony models and the others, as the quotes above suggest. -- John

gregr

10-08-07, 04:52 PM

As mentioned, just reporting what I'd read (from memory) comparing resolution pumping from earlier reviews versus the VW60 review. But just to see if I was recalling in error, went back through some '07 WSR gregr reviews using original-1080i video broadcasts:

Jan.'s XV-Z20000U review commented: "Resolution pumping was also more apparent with Sharp's deinterlacing." (That's video deinterlacing with Sharp's own video processor, or CV-IC).

March's Optoma HD81 review: "Resolution pumping was very minor." (Gennum VXP processor.)

May's JVC RS1 review: "Images were sharp with excellent detail and extremely fine textures, and only minor resolution pumping with movement." (Gennum VXP processor.)

Nov.'s Sony VW60 review, paraphrased per gregr's no-quote request: He reported excellent static sharpness and definition, and noticed modest resolution pumping that caused fine details to blur on a talk-show host's shirt when he moved while giving his monologue. (Didn't spot mention of video processor; maybe proprietary, as with Sharp's.)

That's the motion-blurring references I noticed. Since I read the other reviews throughout '07, I might have mistakenly 'blended' some review comments about "no" line twitter mentioned with certain models and, erroneously, "no" resolution pumping (never published). But there seems to be a distinction made with the Sharp and Sony models and the others, as the quotes above suggest. -- JohnJohn,
That is exactly what I intend for people to do with my reviews - use them as a relative comparison of products. That is why I try to maintain a relatively consistent format in the projector reviews. As far as resolution pumping is concerned, I'd rank them for that characteristic as Gennum, Sony, Sharp in that order.

joerod

10-08-07, 05:35 PM

And we appreciate (or at least I do) your thorough well written reviews. I am happy with the VW60. It does feel like a nice upgrade from my Ruby. Of course I use a crystalio II with it so that helps.Also having 1080p/24 does to! :) Keep up the nice Roger reports! ;)

jaaybags

10-12-07, 01:21 PM

Is AVS an authorized dealer for the Sony VPL VW60? I hope to buy soon but need to know what is the best way to go.

joerod

10-12-07, 01:45 PM

Of course they are. :)

jaaybags

10-12-07, 02:35 PM

I checked Sony's list of authorized dealers and they were not listed. I then called the customer service number on the Sony style website and they checked and said they were not an authorized dealer. So now I really confused and I don't know which way to go.

joerod

10-12-07, 02:53 PM

They sell a lot of stuff so I do not see how they could do it and not be able to back it up...

jaaybags

10-12-07, 03:35 PM

yea, that sounds right. I'm just a little worried making such a big purchase. I went on thier web site and under projectors they do not list Sony. But I did talk to them awhile back and they said that they sold them. I'm just dazed and confused now.

ricwhite

10-12-07, 09:38 PM

From the A/V Science Store site:

A/V Science, Inc. is also authorized to sell everything we offer. No gray market or bait and switch goods here. If we aren’t authorized, we don’t sell it. So feel at ease when you buy something from us that you are getting full manufacturers warranty with it.

I guess that means they are an authorized dealer for the Sony VW60. Right?

joerod

10-12-07, 11:13 PM

I got my unit from them and I am not worried. ;)

joerod

10-13-07, 09:02 PM

We just finished watching Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer and I can't explain how awesome the picture looked. I am using my new Pioneer 95FD to send in 1080p/24 and it is awesome! Even my wife leaned over and made a comment on how much more sharper the picture looked. The Black Pearl when fed 1080p/24 has a judder free, detailed picture that is very sharp. This pj has raised the bar! I would not have to release a pj that costs twice as much as this one... The competition has their work cut out for them. Trouble is it is a lot of hard work! :)

RobZ

10-13-07, 09:30 PM

I just told my wife that this upgrade (VW50/VW100 to VW60) has been known to cause the big "O" for a lot of wives. She's still not buying it and thinks I'm an obsessed idiot. Oh well, I tried.

elmalloc

10-13-07, 09:33 PM

lol

lovingdvd

10-14-07, 12:14 AM

She's still not buying it and thinks I'm an obsessed idiot. Oh well, I tried.

This post is one of my favs - maybe this will help: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759494 :D

RobZ

10-14-07, 04:34 PM

That is a funny thread. Or should I call it a users guide?

joerod

10-14-07, 06:06 PM

As long as you get a few good chick flicks in HD then you should be fine... ;)

gandley

10-14-07, 06:12 PM

As long as you get a few good chick flicks in HD then you should be fine... ;)

And no this dosent mean Porn:D

joerod

10-14-07, 07:47 PM

Pirates HD DVD, enough said! :D

capnvid

10-15-07, 12:16 AM

Hey!
I upgraded to the Sony VPL-VW60 Black Pearl today when I was shopping at B&H in NYC for something else and was suprised when I found they had it. I first had the Ruby, which was too large for my living room and overheated and burnt out the lamp when I had it flush against the back wall. Sony repaired the unit and replaced the lamp. I then bought the VW50 original Pearl after reading Greg Roger's Widescreen review of it which seemed to favor the smaller projector favorably to the Ruby. I then sold the Ruby on eBay. Sounds nuts to some experts, I know, but I have to deal with my envirement.

Recently, I've been concerned about getting the best contrast (in a room with a little ambient light during the day) which seems to be a difficult ratio to measure. I've read several different contrast ratios for both the JVC RS1 and the original Pearl. I also saw a photo of the JVC and the Pearl on AVS and thought the JVC looked twice as large as the Sony, making it NYC aparment unfriendly. I have the new Black Pearl about 14 feet back from my 96 inch Stewart Firehawk screen which I understand helps brightness but negates the contrast.

In my first night with the new projector (at hi-power lamp) I watched parts of the extended cut Blu-Ray of "Troy" which looked great. The Blu-Ray of "The Wild Bunch" which looked a little dark with the Sony setting Gamma 3, which I then turned off. Finally I watched the entire Blu-Ray of Antoine Fuqua's "The Replacement Killers" with dazzling visuals that showed the color and contrast of the new Black Pearl definately beats the old Pearl and are at least on par with the original Ruby.

Like joerod, I use a video processor to tweak the original Black Pearl settings. I've raised the contrast a bit and slightly raised the sharpness and detail. I have yet to figure out the pixel alignment, but so far, so good on sharpness and color. The image has much more black and picture pop than the original Pearl and makes me glad I sold my Ruby a year ago. I'll sell my old Pearl (with a new unopened lamp) soon.

After a few more days experience with the Black Pearl, I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have from my video layman's point of view.

Best wishes from a fellow video and audio nut, Capnvid

WOLVERNOLE

10-15-07, 11:23 AM

Hey!
I upgraded to the Sony VPL-VW60 Black Pearl today when I was shopping at B&H in NYC for something else and was suprised when I found they had it. Like joerod, I use a video processor to tweak the original Black Pearl settings. I've raised the contrast a bit and slightly raised the sharpness and detail. I have yet to figure out the pixel alignment, but so far, so good on sharpness and color. The image has much more black and picture pop than the original Pearl and makes me glad I sold my Ruby a year ago. I'll sell my old Pearl (with a new unopened lamp) soon.

After a few more days experience with the Black Pearl, I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have from my video layman's point of view.

Best wishes from a fellow video and audio nut, Capnvid

Thanks for the input, Captain ! A follow up question, please. Have you ever viewed the JVC RS-1 ? If so, how would you compare the two? Your set-up sounds almost exactly what I am planning...I am strongly considering the VW-60 with a Stewart Studiotek 130 (1.3 gain) ~ 96" diag. size, @ about 13' ceiling throw. Any other comments are appreciated (all). Oh...navy blue walls, and light beige ceiling and complete blockage of extraneous light.

ricwhite

10-15-07, 01:25 PM

Any ideas on how a VW60 will do on my DaLite High 106" Power screen? Do you sense any potential problems with using the Black Pearl with that screen combination? The projector will be centered and rack mounted about 18 feet back just a foot or two so above eye level. I haven't read any comments with a VW50 or 60 with a HP screen.

millerwill

10-15-07, 01:57 PM

Sounds like it will be a super combo. I certainly like my RS1 with a HP (126" diag).

Bill Cruce

10-15-07, 02:20 PM

owl1

10-15-07, 02:50 PM

joerod

10-15-07, 02:58 PM

Actually I am selling my crystalio II and going to audition their newer model the 3100. I would suspect it should be the same but will post as soon as I get it hooked up. :)

capnvid

10-16-07, 12:51 AM

Hello Wolvernoe!

No, I have not seen the RS1 in action. I based my opinion on what I've read, particularly Tom Norton of Stereophile Home Theater (now Ultimate AV on the net). He told me at the Hi-Fi show in NYC last May that he bought the RS1 and his web page rates it over the original Pearl. But in his review, while praising the blacks, he had some issues about the color, programing, actual contrast rating (measured his own way) and projector noise in High Lamp mode.

There is a great thread in AVS now where you can see pictures from the Hi-Def "Phantom Of The Opera" projected by both the Black Pearl and the RS-1. Hard to tell from such pictures, but I agreed with the folks that the Black Pearl looked marginally better. Plus it's smaller and less noisy, which works well with a projector only about a foot from my head.

Yes, your place sounds like mine! I have Skylark Blue walls and a white ceiling. You might want to research the JVC RS-2 before making your decision. Bolth the Sony and JVC would make you happy. The Black Pearl gives me the best all around picture I've had since I owned a room hogging Runco CRT front projector a few years back. The new Sony is sharper, has better color and the most pop I've gotten from blacks since those ultra expensive CRT days.

I'm still experimenting with the Black Pearl and am making slight modifications that make viewing fun. I hope you will be enjoying yourself soon!

Now back to finding the right remote.......

jaaybags

10-17-07, 12:26 PM

Ok, my room is just about ready for equipment. I'm going to buy the VW60. I need any and all advise on which screen to purchase for my setup. I plan on 92" or 100" screen my seating will be about 14 feet away from the screen. My room has no ambient light but I also plan to watch sports and would like some light on during that. I'm a rookie when it comes to home theater so please help and don't assume I know alot. Thanks in advance!!

scottyb

10-17-07, 12:31 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919184

capnvid

10-17-07, 01:24 PM

Hey Jaaybags!
If you have any ambient light try a Stewart Luxus Communicator Firehawk Screen, 92 or 94 inches wide. Go to their website, check them out, and then call them in California at 1-800-762-4999. They will answer any questions in detail you have on your particular situation. No, they are not cheap, but you will get your money's worth and peace of mind because the VPL-VW60 Black Pearl looks great on Stewart screen. Good luck!

rjh65@verizon.ne

10-18-07, 10:40 PM

Does anyone know if the Sony VPL-VW60 have HDMI 1.3? The owners manual does not specify.

RobZ

10-18-07, 10:56 PM

Does anyone know if the Sony VPL-VW60 have HDMI 1.3? The owners manual does not specify.

It's 1.2

rjh65@verizon.ne

10-19-07, 07:19 AM

Looking to possibly purchase a new VPL-VW60 aka black pearl today. Has anyone seen the picture quality of the new Mitsubishi HC6000 and the Sony VPL-VW60. I have the HC5000 currently but am sending back to factory for a full refund due to a problem. I have a Vutec silverstar 110" screen which has a lot of pop to it. The HC5000 was very sharp and detailed and the HC6000 apparently blows the doors off of the HC5000 from what I've read and the old VW50 had a softer image. It would be nice to have the new VW60 if it is much sharper than the old VW50. I can get the new Mits HC6000 at dealer cost and have seen the Sony VW60 on Audiogon for $3600.00 new just concerned about warranty and dealer authenticity. Any feedback from someone who has seen both would be great!

joerod

10-19-07, 07:30 AM

I have the WV60 and a Vutec 120.5" SS and it is a great combo. The picture is very sharp. I can't imagine the the Mits being to much sharper. With all of the features the Black Pearl offers it would win my vote over and over again. Of course in the looks department (not that it really matters- it is what's on the inside that counts- :D) the Black Pearl is much better looking... :)

owl1

10-19-07, 08:09 AM

LOL, JoeRod, are you wearing sunglasses with that setup? I'm using an 125" HP and it's ALMOST too bright. :cool: Isn't silverstar like 6.0 gain?

BTW, sharpness will definitely not be one of your problems with the Black Pearl and it is a gorgeous looking projector that fits much better in my setup than the Ruby.

joerod

10-19-07, 08:51 AM

I have to admit since the lamp is newer it is nearly to bright! I never had that situation with my Ruby. I remember it being pretty bright with a new lamp but never this bright.

rjh65@verizon.ne

10-19-07, 10:33 AM

Well getleman I apprecite your feedback so far. I called sony tech this morning and the VPL-VW60 does have in fact HDMI version 1.3 and the Vutec silverstar is in reality closer to maybe a 3.0 gain.

joerod

10-19-07, 10:58 AM

They did say it was HDMI 1.3? Everyone at AVS says 1.2 but that is twice I have heard(or have been told) someone from Sony say that it is in fact HDMI 1.3... :eek:

BangoO

10-19-07, 11:24 AM

Isn't written 1.2 in the manual though ?

RobZ

10-19-07, 11:55 AM

I'd believe the manual over a rep on the phone. Could be 1.3 though. Call them back and ask if it's 1.4. If they say yes, you know the answer.

HoustonHoyaFan

10-19-07, 03:02 PM

... Any feedback from someone who has seen both would be great!You may want to call the folks at AVS. Jason has done a VW60 review, and will likely post a HC6000 review shortly.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=924985

gregr

10-19-07, 08:17 PM

Well getleman I apprecite your feedback so far. I called sony tech this morning and the VPL-VW60 does have in fact HDMI version 1.3 and the Vutec silverstar is in reality closer to maybe a 3.0 gain.Why do care if it has HDMI 1.3 or not? How can that possibly make a difference to you?

rjh65@verizon.ne

10-19-07, 08:42 PM

Main difference for me would simply be peace of mind so I know that I would be able to take advantage of any possible audio or video advantages that hdmi 1.3 might offer as well as I don't tend to keep things for very long and when I sell them on audiogon it helps if they are more up to date.

ricwhite

10-19-07, 08:45 PM

What's the advantage for HDMI 1.3? From what I have read, the main advantage is its capability of accepting "deep color." But that's not even used in media right now . And even if it were it still won't work because HDMI devices such as the new Toshiba A-35 HD DVD player disables "deep color" with the 1080p/24 output -- which is the output most would use with a capable display. Therefore, I can't really see a purpose for HDMI 1.3.

gregr

10-19-07, 09:06 PM

gregr

10-19-07, 09:11 PM

What's the advantage for HDMI 1.3? From what I have read, the main advantage is its capability of accepting "deep color."NO !!! Deep color is strictly an optional feature of HDMI 1.3. Having HDMI 1.3 does NOT mean you get deep color signals/processing from a source (which offers no advantage anyway), or a repeater (i.e. a video processor - which could offer an advantage if it produced deep color signals - but none yet do that I know of), or a display (accept and then processes 10-bit or higher 4:4:4 signals, which is only useful with a repeater that provided deep color).

But if you want to know if a product performs deep color processing (10-bit or higher 4:4:4 processing) and accepts deep color signals for that processing or produces deep color signals as a result of that processing, than that is question you must ask - not whether or not it has HDMI 1.3.

ricwhite

10-19-07, 09:28 PM

NO !!! Deep color is strictly an optional feature of HDMI 1.3. Having HDMI 1.3 does NOT mean you get deep color signals/processing from a source (which offers no advantage anyway), or a repeater (i.e. a video processor - which could offer an advantage if it produced deep color signals - but none yet do that I know of), or a display (accept and then processes 10-bit or higher 4:4:4 signals, which is only useful with a repeater that provided deep color).

But if you want to know if a product performs deep color processing (10-bit or higher 4:4:4 processing) and accepts deep color signals for that processing or produces deep color signals as a result of that processing, than that is question you must ask - not whether or not it has HDMI 1.3.

Thanks for the info. I don't know much about the advantages of HDMI 1.3, but whenever it's mentioned so also is "deep color" so I assumed that was the main advantage. I guess that was not quite correct. I also read that "bandwidth" is greater with HDMI 1.3. Is that true? If so, what practical advantage would that provide?

gregr

10-19-07, 10:00 PM

Thanks for the info. I don't know much about the advantages of HDMI 1.3, but whenever it's mentioned so also is "deep color" so I assumed that was the main advantage. I guess that was not quite correct. I also read that "bandwidth" is greater with HDMI 1.3. Is that true? If so, what practical advantage would that provide?The clock (or bit) rates (which is what people sometimes mean when they say bandwidth) can be up to 2x higher than previous HDMI versions to support the optional Deep Color modes, but the higher clock rates (above 148.5 MHz) are ONLY used if the Deep Color modes are used. Also some of the HDMI 1.3 chips don't yet support the full clock rates that would be required for some of the Deep Color modes at 1080p. So again, having HDMI 1.3 in a product doesn't even tell you what clock rates it supports, since Deep Color is an optional HDMI 1.3 feature, and there are multiple Deep Color modes (with different clock rates) which are themselves optional even when Deep Color is implemented. (i.e. even if someone tells you that a product has Deep Color, that doesn't tell you what Deep Color modes it supports.) So, the optional higher clock rates do not provide any advantage unless an optional Deep Color mode requires them.