I am going to painting the theater room this weekend and need to know how important is a black walls and ceiling. I will have dark burgandy carpet and black absorption panels throughout. I just know that it will not be a favorite place for my wife If I paint it all black, but the standard for the best contrast is that type of room. I just wonder if that really pertains to CRT and LCOS more so than DLP. I was thinking either gray or burgandy as a substitute for black. All suggestion swelcome.

Thanks Joey

I was thinking the same thing, however my new room will be black screen wall, black ceiling with the other 3 walls painted a deep burgundy. Trim will be in dark tan color. I think this will work for me since I wont have light issues.

Newer projectors have better contrast. This is just thrown away if the room is light and reflecting back to the screen. So seems even more important.

But if you always watch with lights on and don't mind not having full black blacks then the brighter bulb will help and the room won't matter so much.

I am going to painting the theater room this weekend and need to know how important is a black walls and ceiling. I will have dark burgandy carpet and black absorption panels throughout. I just know that it will not be a favorite place for my wife If I paint it all black, but the standard for the best contrast is that type of room. I just wonder if that really pertains to CRT and LCOS more so than DLP. I was thinking either gray or burgandy as a substitute for black. All suggestion swelcome.

Thanks Joey

Any improvement on white will be noticed. With a light colored room you will get less that 100 ANSI CR. I assume you machine is capable of over 500. Big difference.

Go as dark as you can then fire up you PJ with a pure white screen. You will see 3 main areas of reflection. 1 above the screen and 1 either side. Wall hangings or panels will kill these. Before you do that invest about $20 and get some 8ft hardboard panels and paint them black. Tape them in these areas and see the difference. They will also kill secondary reflections as they are the primary source of those. If this improves the performance (which it will) either get hangings or wood panels in these locations.

That fact is, however, that even the equivalent of a mid color will give a huge improvement over light. This improvement is actually bigger that that between a mid color and black. Once you go above mid tones you have achieved most of the gain

I have a purpose built annexe that is fully darkened on all 6 surfaces in the main viewing room and that then throws up the lighting issue. You will need plenty of spots and watts, but that can be zoned and tied into a control system and used to dramatic effect.

Hope this helps, and good luck with the project.

Dark greys work pretty well. Just be sure to use flat paint - don't use egg shell finishes !!

My new HT room was white eggshell two weeks ago (prior to my paintwork). Now that I've painted in a Clay Red Suede (very flat paint) the image appears to have far better contrast. It feels as if I've added a new bulb.

Important. One thing that many people don't realize is that with front projection, you have to have it dark in the room for optimal performance. Black is not a color, but the absense of color (light). In order to achieve it, one has to have a dark room.

Now that isn't to say that a bright projector won't be easier to see in a light filled room (vs. a less bright projector)...but, even a light cannon cannot make the image look as good as it would be with lights off.

In the beginning I was very reluctant to go with dark colors. My HT is also my living room.
The first concession I made was to paint the screen wall black. I also built a 10' shelf out of 2x4s that went a foot below the screen to hold the speakers, also black.
The rest of the room was painted Behr Oakwood Brown. That color was picked up from a large painting that hangs on the left wall. The last item was to hang acoustical panels on the first 3 feet of ceiling over the screen. The rest of the ceiling is left white. (Thank you Bud:))
Tomorrow I'll hang the black-out cell shades that have been sitting in the corner for the past two weeks.:rolleyes:
Every part of the process seemed to add to the picture quality and richness. Blacks improved.
Surprisingly, the darker colors do not give the room a cave atmosphere. It also does not make the room look smaller which was my initial worry.
Don't be afraid to experiment. Paint is cheap.
Tony

I think many people think of "dark" as black. You can go with darker tones of many, many shades and still aid in overall appearance of the image.

My wife was at first horrified that I wanted to paint the ceiling black. Actually you may be surprised at how it looks. I pointed out to my wife that many of the upscale restaurants we frequent have black ceiling tiles. If fact, that's the most common ceiling I see in the newer ones. Then when I painted the ceilng of the theater black, she really liked it. My walls are more of a milk chocolate color. I would not like black walls so my wife does not have to worry about that:). The ceiling was at first dark gray which was an attempt at compromise. The black turned out to actually look much better. I used a Ralph Lauren color, Bone Black, that I got at Home Depot.

bulldogger, show pics

Why was asking you guys anyway...my wife made the decision:rolleyes:but she picked an awesome color to go with the dark purple carpet. Its second darkest on the swatch sheet. So its 11 black sound asorption panels 4x4 and mid dark flat purple paint ,deep purple carpet, Silver Revel Salons,black surrounds and Blck leather theater seats. I'm happier now as I really didin't enjoy being in a all black room even with lights on. It really has the tendancy to pull thelife out of me.

Thanks for the advice.

Joey

Enjoy!

Any specific recommendations for the black paint for the ceiling?

I've found that dark cotton velvet works better than paint. I've not seen a flat black that doesn't have some reflection. Curtains on the screen wall as well as 3 feet or so onto the side walls and fabric covered panels on the ceiling the same distance out does wonders. However, a solid black wall with no delineation around the screen can make the screen look smaller. Darkening the walls and ceiling beyond 4 feet out from the screen has diminishing returns.

Hope this helps.

I've found that dark cotton velvet works better than paint. I've not seen a flat black that doesn't have some reflection. Curtains on the screen wall as well as 3 feet or so onto the side walls and fabric covered panels on the ceiling the same distance out does wonders. However, a solid black wall with no delineation around the screen can make the screen look smaller. Darkening the walls and ceiling beyond 4 feet out from the screen has diminishing returns.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the comments. As an experiment for the last couple of months, I did in fact pin up (ver tightly) a piece of black cotton fabric across my ceiling (~13 ft wide) that extended ~ 4 ft out from the back wall (to which the screen, 126 diag 9x16 HP, is attached). And BOY, did I notice now much nicer things looked. It was like having a 'black hole' out over the screen.

It was this positive experience that has led me to consider painting the whole ceiling black. For where I see the present black cloth end, the (off while) ceiling really is lighted up. I thought about extending the fabric another 3 ft, say, but then my wife thought it would look neater--and I agreed--just to paint the whole ceiling black.

But now your comments suggests that there is no flat black paint that doesn't have some sheen to it. I agree that black fabric would be a better light absorber, but it's really not feasible (in my case) to cover the whole ceiling with it.

So my question to this group: does everyone agree with mill1899's comments above? Is there really no flat black paint that would cause the ceiling to 'disappear' when the lights go down? Thanks for any feedback/suggestions.

I painted my ceiling and walls the blackest flattest black I could get. It still is visible and reflects some light. Black velveteen walls and ceiling will be my goal for HT 2.0. However, I think flat black paint is well worth it - the cost/install time vs payoff is great.

The two smartest things I did when I set up my HT were to paint the walls and ceiling a very dark color (Dunn Edwards Refined Green, about 4% above true black) and install a nice Carada brilliant white screen. I would highly recomend this as the first step for anyone using front projection.

The two smartest things I did when I set up my HT were to paint the walls and ceiling a very dark color (Dunn Edwards Refined Green, about 4% above true black) and install a nice Carada brilliant white screen. I would highly recomend this as the first step for anyone using front projection.

The ceiling IS the most important. Paint, of course, is but one solution. (Vaulted ceilings,if you have them, work wonders).
Be creative and let the Mrs have a hand in the decoration.

"I would highly recomend this as the first step for anyone using front projection."

Couldn't agree more.

Texture always works better, but with that the WAF gets harder and harder. :)

Thanks for the comments. As an experiment for the last couple of months, I did in fact pin up (ver tightly) a piece of black cotton fabric across my ceiling (~13 ft wide) that extended ~ 4 ft out from the back wall (to which the screen, 126 diag 9x16 HP, is attached). And BOY, did I notice now much nicer things looked. It was like having a 'black hole' out over the screen.

If you were to put curtains on each side of the screen you could create a "valance" with thin plywood covered with fabric. I've done it with straight sections on the side and a middle section that curves out in front of the screen. If it comes down 5- 10 inches, it does not need to go so far out into the room to be effective. It creates a theater stage appearance. (I've done it with a curved "stage" beneath it.) If you think about it, you can probably remember being in a commercial theater that looks something like this. It's done for more than aesthetic reasons. I've found that some people respond to darkening the whole room too much as creating a "cave". Because the "stage" deals with the majority of the reflection, it allows for a wider selection of color choices on other surfaces without compromising the picture as much.

mill1899: Thanks for the suggestions. I do have some extra black fabric, so think I will try some version of your suggestions for my room. Thanks again--great thing about the forum, to get good ideas for others.

For an example of an all-black theater (with a dash of red to highlight the steps) using velvet, check my link...


Mark

Lots of great info here. Did not think a high power screen would benefit so much but it looks like it does. I've gone with a nice burgundy for walls and have some black velvet coming to drape over top to take up a few feet or so from the white ceiling. Improvement was already noticeable and the ceiling is still a few feet above the screen so that will increase the process.

Now with the walls a flat nice burgundy, not sure if the side black velvet curtains will really be needed. Guess that three feet on each side will just need to be tested.

Thanks for everyone posting their comments here.

Any specific recommendations for the black paint for the ceiling?

I don't have the link but I found my black in this forum. The color is a home depot Behr paint in the Disney colors. It was either Mouse Ears or Micky ears. I painted around a 180 sqft ceiling (ceiling tiles) and installed small halogen lights. I love my ceiling now that it is black. also now i can even have a few lights on and still a great picture. ( panny aeu1000 )

do a search on mouse/micky ears and im sure you will find it

Here are a couple of threads that should be helpful
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=7224281

When painting for black I always use:

http://www.flints.co.uk/acatalog/Bolloms_Super_Scenic_Black.html

This is the paint you (don't) see in use at theatres behind the scenery to black out non-scenic stuff. It's very matte and very black. Ideal for cinema use.

Problem is, the above link is in the UK - you'd need to find a similar item in the US.

Mark

Is there really no flat black paint that would cause the ceiling to 'disappear' when the lights go down? Thanks for any feedback/suggestions.

I'm yet to 'see' a flat black paint that disappears completely with a fair amount of light hitting it. As Jason said, texture (surface area?) really makes a big difference. On the other hand, there are diminishing returns on blacking things out. The difference between a flat black ceiling and a black velvet ceiling is minuscule at best. While flat blacks work best, I've found anything beyond flat medium hues to not make all that much of a difference.

In an ideal world we would have black holes for theaters, but dark greens, chocolates, burgundies, etc. look so much better and offer almost as much performance as flat black paints.

Very interesting discussion. Thanks everyone. I am using my living room for my home theater...so I am considering a variety of colors to compromise entertaining with home theater use. Hummm...flat black cieling? Is it really wife approved? Deep burgandy walls would be fun though.

I am considering an upgrade to a 1080p PJ (likely the Mits 6000). But it looks to me like light control will be very important.

Marcus

"The difference between a flat black ceiling and a black velvet ceiling is minuscule at best."

As one who has had both I don't agree that it is minuscule. My walls and ceiling were all flat black up front and later on I tried hanging black velvet on the walls/ceiling and the difference was large. I could always see the room light up from the screen with the paint. With the velvet the room just disappears when the lights go down. As always YMMV.

Shawn

"The difference between a flat black ceiling and a black velvet ceiling is minuscule at best."

As one who has had both I don't agree that it is minuscule. My walls and ceiling were all flat black up front and later on I tried hanging black velvet on the walls/ceiling and the difference was large. I could always see the room light up from the screen with the paint. With the velvet the room just disappears when the lights go down. As always YMMV.

Shawn

To a certain degree I agree with you Shawn. I should have prefaced by saying doing the entire room in one verses the other, the difference is minuscule at best. But, you're right... if you're able to treat the first few feet from the screen with black velvet (or similar treatments), there is a noticeable difference on how much light makes it back on to the screen. The benefits diminish rapidly after you get out a few feet when you're comparing flat black paint and velvet.

Agree with Shawn based on some limited test results. Although the burgundy I used had a nice impact on the contrast (re: JVC RS1) wasn't sure that the black velvet curtains used on the side of the screen to about three feet out or so would matter. It does.

Here's why. Although the consistent dark shade of the color dampens the reflection quite a bit, there is still some reflection off the side wall. In a narrow room this has more than an impact on contrast. It also has an impact on the human eye. In my more narrow room, about 10 feet wide, there's a certain amount of contrast impacted that is probably less important than the distraction on the human eye from the reflection. What I noticed was that the natural viewing cone was aided by the velvet curtains providing a tunnel effect with no reflection at all. It's just pure absorption.

I have a white ceiling and this will be the last part of the test. When the black velvet arrives, I will "complete" the tunnel effect and have that float over the screen about four feet out from the screen.

But my sense is that the greater impact will be the lack of reflective light distraction on the human eye from the light absorption of black velvet. Even if there is limited improvement with improved contrast, completing the tunnel of black velvet around the screen will complete the impact on the eyes is my guess.

Thanks again to the folks contributing to this discussion. After three years and now on the fourth projector, I've come around to see the value of this approach.

I think many people think of "dark" as black. You can go with darker tones of many, many shades and still aid in overall appearance of the image.

Exactly! You don't need a goth room, but choose a dark color. For instance, mine is a very dark red color but with the lights off and the projector on, they dont reflect much light at all.

I have a room with light grey side walls and a white ceiling. Although the screen wall is dark brown, the sides and ceiling were effecting my viewing by lighting up the room. My solution is to cover the sofa nearest the screen with a dark 'throw' and I've created a temporary 'tent' (see pics below) using black cloth. This tent is only about 4 feet deep, but it definately makes a difference, yet when I'm not using the PJ the room looks great.

A strange side effect of this 'tent' is that I've gone from using an ND4 filter to an ND2, yet the blacks seem just as good, but of course the whites are now brighter. Go figure.....

The tent doesn't block the top of the picture by the way, as I'm set for 2.35:1 so the 'dip' is in the top black bar. The final 'tweak' is another piece of black cloth (maybe Velvet?) to hook across the top to mask the 'grey' bar.

For information thats a Graywolf II screen 120" diagonal for the 16:9 section, which equals a 106" wide 2.35:1 screen as I use it. Projector is a Panasonic AE1000

"The benefits diminish rapidly after you get out a few feet when you're comparing flat black paint and velvet."

Certainly it helps most up near the screen but my whole room is velvet (black front half, red back half) and there is no way I'd go back to paint. My room is narrow though (screen almost as wide as the room) so that likely effects the outcome too.

The velvet just about every where is such a light trap you with the lights out you can shine a flashlight on one wall and not really even see the opposite wall.

The effect of greatly reducing how much of the room I see while watching the screen to me isn't subtle. It draws into the movie more, highly recommended for those that can pull it off. It also of course makes the picture look great too. I was measuring a little over 700:1 ANSIish on the Sharp 12k at the projector (screen up) and still was around 550:1 at the screen with the room adding its contribution.

In case anyone is looking to try it I use the 'Magic Pleats' from here:

http://www4.jcpenney.com/jcp/ProductsHOM.aspx?ItemID=1233aca&GrpTyp=ENS&CmCatId=SearchResults&mscssid=6ffcd684c71d54564b2ec1dd77bfd4fe4xMnVNoVza3WxMnVNoVz a3o200B54F5E6848440931049E5DEBE3FC77CDD0728317

Keep watching it they tend to put it on sale pretty regularly at around 40% off.

Shawn

The velvet just about every where is such a light trap you with the lights out you can shine a flashlight on one wall and not really even see the opposite wall. The effect of greatly reducing how much of the room I see while watching the screen to me isn't subtle. It draws into the movie more, highly recommended for those that can pull it off.

I use black velvet curtains along the walls for the first 6' or so into my room. I agree that it makes a huge difference, covering the entire first part of the room with black velvet. I used these cheap curtains from Walmart:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5739803

For my front wall, I also used these curtains, one on each side, and then was able to use a single 4-yard piece of acoustically transparent black velvet spandex, also from Walmart at 5$/yard. Even though it's only 60" wide, I was able to stretch it to 7.5', large enough to create an entirely seamless front wall, after adding a valance. The valance was made from cheap $10 44" black cotton (non-velvet) valances from JC Penny - something I want to improve on. I'll post some pictures this evening.

One word Glidden ASAP. Looks awsome, adds some color, is dark, yet not black. Accent other walls with the tan RL suede looks great!!!

Thought I'd revisit this thread with an observation, and a question.
Essentially my HT is finished, and I'm well pleased with the result.
The flat black screen wall and 3.5 ft of black ceiling tiles were the cats meow. Till I got the new screen up yesterday afternoon.:eek:
The black velvet material of the screen frame is so "black" you can almost fall into it. The contrast makes the wall look like a dark charcoal grey. It still looks ok, but the difference is enough to put me into the camp favoring the velvet treatment.
Question, for those that are using black velvet walls:
Are you using the drapery material as drapes or are you pasting it to the walls or a frame?
Has anyone been using a velvet wallpaper? (if available)
Thanks.
Tony

Tony, in my room I use a Fabritrak (http://www.fabritrak.co.uk/info/how_it_works.html) system with the velvet. It's a system which allows you to install sheets of material in almost any configuration (angles/shapes/sizes) and to all surfaces.

During screenings I cannot see the difference between the screen frame or the walls and I cannot see where the ceilings/wall/floor boundaries meet each other. It's just a black void with an image floating in the air in front of you.

Mark

Many thanks Mark.
Your theater is to die for.:cool:
Unfortunately my HT project has left a sizeable dent in my "entertainment" fund. Fabritrak may be out of my immediate price range.
So, I will have to seek a more affordable, or do DIY solution.:o
Tony

Tony,

The black velvet is quite effective. I have curtains on the side walls and then draped a long piece that just came yesterday over the top.

So now the white ceiling is not exposing any light down to the screen from about four feet or so out.

Overall, I have to say that I was surprised that the contrast improved as much as it did. I watched some movies I had in HD on DVR and one that I had just watched the night before. It was at least a 20% improvement in the overall picture due to the contrast.

Frankly I was taken aback at the improvement. I originally had the velvet side of the top piece facing the wrong way. I noticed I could see some light shining on the reverse black side that did not have the velvet. It was better but I quickly fixed it.

After that, it was the suck out of light as the black velvet just drinks up the light. My guess is that this is beneficial to most setups even those going with a darker color than burgundy that I've used.

The difference is actually seeing the border areas around the screen versus the floating effect. With the black velvet there's just the picture.
Very nice.

With the black velvet there's just the picture.

Certainly worth while shooting for.
I sure would like to hear if anyone has tried laying the fabric directly to the wall. Be good to know the adhesive used and results.

"I sure would like to hear if anyone has tried laying the fabric directly to the wall."

For side walls I think the drapes would likely be more effective as the 'drape' to them likely makes them even more of a light trap and is much easier to install. And IMO the pleating looks much nicer then just the flat velvet.

On my ceiling I used the non 'Magic Pleat' version of the JC Penny stuff. Dedicated theater (I can do what I want) so I put a couple of mounting points across the ceiling up front and a piece of 1" thick pine across the room behind the screen. (Screen hangs about 2' off the front wall) On the mounting pieces up front I hung a piece of electrical conduit as a sort of drapery rod from two drapes. Then pulled that in tight up against the pine board behind the screen and stapled it in place. That worked pretty well.

For doing side walls I'd assume it would be put up light the fabric covered walls many do in dedicated theaters and hiding the seams with chair rails and lots of molding.

Shawn

A there's a certain amount of contrast impacted that is probably less important than the distraction on the human eye from the reflection. What I noticed was that the natural viewing cone was aided by the velvet curtains providing a tunnel effect with no reflection at all. It's just pure absorption.



I went through just such a realization a couple years ago. I'm the only one I know who would mask his plasma for 2:35:1 films!

I've always watched films in "theater-like" conditions - in the dark. That's just the way I view movies, so I did this even with my plasma. My plasma, a Panasonic, had industry-leading black levels so I generally didn't think I needed to bother with the black bars for scope films. But, tweaker that I am,
I tried masking for scope films. I was surprised at just what a big difference it made - the image just popped out of that black area, and the lack of visual distraction also helped focus my attention on the image.

The plasma was mounted on an ochre-colored entertainment cabinet. But since I always watched with the lights out, or almost out, I never thought of the barely visible background as a distraction. Still, the tweaker in me bought some big black material and hung it around the plasma. WOW! Another revelation: it really DID change the viewing experience. The image now sat totally in a black field. As such it took on more brilliance and also more of a portal-into-the-film-world vibe, with more realism and dimensionality. And it even felt somewhat bigger, because there were no more visual cues around the image for my brain to determine the size of the image so it "felt" more significant and immersive. I wouldn't have thought that the background, so dim with the lights down, would have impacted the viewing experience in any real way. But once I blacked out that background totally I realised it had played a part in the viewing experience.

So I knew from that that when I set up my projector-based theater (my current project) that I would want a masked image and a black background with as many visual distractions removed around the image as possible.
That's what I'm working on now.

Hai,

Just adding to the pool of information already posted, I don't see anyone posting about using black carpet and just sticking that to the walls and ceiling. I use a 100" wide screen with velvet borders and the rest of the backwall, sidewalls (first few feet) and the ceiling is black carpet. Its easy to work with and it works so well i can't see the difference between the carpet (if you pick the type well) and the real velvet of the border of the screen. The rest of the sidewalls uses curtains.

Daniel.

Daniel,

My cave of course has black carpet and I selected the blackest I could find from a bunch of samples but it doesn't come anywhere near the velvet in terms of absolute non-reflective blackness. In fact, in my room, the black carpet in front of the screen became a significant weak spot so I laid velvet on the floor too (fortunately the area in front of the screen is 6" lower than the seating platforms so I was able to lay the velvet in a seamless manner aesthetically).

The key, I think, is consistency - use the same materials on all surfaces so that no one surface stands out and becomes a distraction.

Mark

I have very high ceilings (double height loft) which makes painting it rather tricky. However, from what I read above the height of my ceilings may lessen the need to darken it anyway. Would this be correct?

Steve,

Higher ceilings will help but you'll have your answer by just looking at it when the projector is on. If you can see the lit ceiling you'll probably get some nice gain by eliminating the reflection.

Can you use the velvet to make your sound panels or cover your wall mounted insul-shield? I guess what I am wondering is if it is acoustically transparent.

I am mounting my new masking system (black velveteen). I left one of the masks laid out on my black carpet last night before watching a movie. Big difference - the mask is black as space and showed how much light was being reflected off the carpet. I can see that I am going to want to redo my front half of the theater as SpinalTap black. No contest between the flat black paint and black carpet vs black veleteen.

PS: R Harkness - I have some initial impressions, but not quite done yet - should have something for you soon.

Can you use the velvet to make your sound panels or cover your wall mounted insul-shield? I guess what I am wondering is if it is acoustically transparent.

I wouldn't say it is acoustically transparent as it will deaden sound. With that having been said, I'd think it would be fine for covering a sound trap.