Like most of you I'm not a fan of the" average guy" either,but when I hear about how jsp and his ignorance are damaging the hd format I can't help but disagree.
I think in this case the good ol' joe has a very good argument which can't really be argued.And that's not the formar war I'm afraid,it's the money.
You're all into buying a new equipment regularly and triple dipping just so you can enjoy the slightest improvement and that's fine.
But you're a strict minority..I'm a film buff and even if I love collecting and are absolutely crazy about movies I'm not part of the tech crowd either.
Even though I have a lcd most of the people probably prefer to spend their money differently. This lossless sound might be the greatest thing ever,but I wonder how many can afford to crank the volume as much as they want. You probably have your soundproof home theater room,but well that's not the rule!
Not counting the speakers you should have to take advantage of the uncompressed sound.
And do we want to talk about the prices of the discs ?
You can buy a dvd for 5/10/15 $ for a disc packed with extras.
Why to spend double for a film (which I might also already have) which most of the time has great quality but no features except silly java games nobody really wants.
And what about the selection ?
Casablanca and Robin Hood are still sitting on the shelves of the few stores that decided to sell them in the first place.
People seem more interested in showing off the quality to friends and relatives,hence all kind of action crap and mediocre 3d animation.
Sony has just released a new edition of Taxi Driver on dvd,why it didn't come out on blue ray as well? (rethoric question).
I remember once in this same forum everyone agreed ant bully was a great looking disc and very much worth the money.
I guess the fact it's a crappy film doesn't really matter that much.
And all that fuss about Transformers (which is a film jsp loves btw) on hd..Is anyone here interested in Apocalypse now (which woudl also make great use of hd), Raging Bull, La dolce vita ?
Joe can buy almost whatever film he likes for a low price and enjoy extra features and a good quality (hd can be great,but I don't see how that automatically makes dvd quality crap..nobody was complaining a couple of years ago..Do you really not stand sd anymore after high definition ? I hope you'll never meet Monica Bellucci then,or you'll leave your wife for good..).
Sorry for my rant..I'm not a troll and I'm certainly not the average guy either.But I can't help but symphatize with him in this respect.
I think some guys here are getting to personal about hd.
How can someone pretend it's better to have heads cut on PotC ?
How can someone be happy not to have commenatry (which would take zero space) on Robocop ?
It reminds me a bit of football fan..
I think both hd-dvd & blue ray will be a niche market like laserdisc and will be here for a while before leaving the market to the new media (which hopefully will be able to give us uncompressed video and a quality comparable to 35mm).
I guess that day both the market and jsp will be ready to spend money for a plasma or whatever.
Until then remember you're the minority and if you think about it rationally most of the choice you are making (buying two players,double dipping films you already have etc. etc.) sounds peculiar compared to the one joe (not in a rush to buy a new format,enjoying what he has and trying to get the best out of it with an upconverter) is making.
Now when it comes to a hobby everything makes sense so I understand your point of you..just don't be so harsh on joe,ok ? :)
Sorry for the length and the awful english (sure there are many mistakes).

You're right on about a lot.
Although I don't think AVS'ers "dislike" J6P...you just have to respect the fact that they are the consumer majority and aren't total dorks with too much disposable income like most of us.

What do you mean "too much disposable income?" YOu mean it's not normal for people to have 3DVRs in the same room, one hooked up to an LCD, one to a Plasma, and one to a CRT, just so you can complaint about black levels and refresh rates?!?!?!

YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT NORMAL!?!?!?!

Good post by OP. Makes a lot of sense.

I agree with most of that. I'm not nearly as hardcore as most of the people on here, but that still makes me way more of a lunatic about it than the average person. I actually don't mind if HDM stays a niche format either; it's nice to be able to pick and choose the films that I want to spend the extra money for and enjoy in HD, but I also like that I can obtain movies I've never seen before for dirt cheap on SD. Blind buys that don't work out so well are a lot more palatable at $5.50 than $24.99. I just wish that studios would focus on what makes HDM successful (basically big-budget action movies) rather than trying to have a 'well rounded' HDM catalog which sounds good on paper and variety but doesn't really do much for sales.

I met Joe, nice guy, had a beer together. J5P now? Anyway, we all start off as J6P's, but as we gain interest in things like HT, HDM, etc., a small minority of us end up here. In the end, J6P will decide the future of all of this for us, perhaps we should be nice to him.

I met Joe, nice guy, had a beer together. J5P now? ...perhaps we should be nice to him.

Maybe repay that beer?

Heck NO! Those Joe's have plenty of six packs.:D

What do you mean "too much disposable income?" YOu mean it's not normal for people to have 3DVRs in the same room, one hooked up to an LCD, one to a Plasma, and one to a CRT, just so you can complaint about black levels and refresh rates?!?!?!

YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT NORMAL!?!?!?!

"Normal" is in the eye of the beholder! ;)

Heck NO! Those Joe's have plenty of six packs.:D

But it's all Pabst Blue Ribbon and Coors - "the Banquet Beer"... :p

No offense PBR fans, I will drink anything that ferments so I shouldn't say anything...

hehehe, this post is very amusing.. JP6 is used as a term on here by many. I guess there must be some member with that actual handle then... ;) We are the picky bastards when it comes to audio and video on here, the masses will decide this fate, we are just steering the ship for now... :) I am still trying to get back my 6 pack I had when I was in my twenties, but my name isn't JOE. ;)

But it's all Pabst Blue Ribbon and Coors - "the Banquet Beer"... :p

No offense PBR fans, I will drink anything that ferments so I shouldn't say anything...

Urine ferments!:eek:

Urine ferments!:eek:

I hear that's how they make Coors Light. :eek:

I hear that's how they make Coors Light. :eek:

LOL, yes sir. I feel bad now though, I drink something even worse.:o

Unless people want another laserdisc, there needs to be mass adoption by J6P like DVD was in order to take off. And right now the average consumer doesn't know about HD Media, doesn't know what it's advantages are compared to SD DVD, and isn't motivated to do the research. Questions I have, how many people have HDTVs and still only SD television signals or non-upscaling DVD players? Personally I think they'd be in the numbers that would make most of the hard core people here cringe.

So how do you get to the point of mass adoption of a product which people are indifferent towards? Get it to the price where it can directly substitute for what they were going to buy anyways, then highlight the advantages. You'll get the people who were going to buy upscaling players to get the HD Media players, mainly because there's an advantage at basically no risk or additional commitment.

My opinions anyways.

there's also the dreaded format war that puts off a lot of j6p's as dvd is good enough for them not to take the hd plunge until either a winner emerges or dual format players become the norm.

Here’s the problem I have with J6P. I couldn’t care less whether they watch their movies with the sides hacked off (the inane pro-fool screen arguments occasionally seen here aside). I don’t care if they think that a SD DVD played back on an HD display is high definition. But I do care when that ignorance threatens to limit what is available. A few years back, Warner Brothers released a special edition of “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory” on SD DVD in fool-screen only, because their research told them that filling their screen was more important than seeing the film correctly for the majority of the target audience. We had to petition them to release it OAR (which they eventually did). Before that, WB also released “Space Jam" (yes, I am the other person on this planet who liked it), also cropped for the masses. It wasn’t until several years later that they re-released it OAR (with a soundtrack vastly inferior to the LD, but I digress…).

And there is the obvious one: the HD cable industry. Most of the so-called movie channels (HBO-HD, Cinemax-HD, etc). routinely crop their movies to a 16:9 AR to cater to the lowest common denominator. In that case, I cannot see the movie properly at all just so J6P can have their screen filled. Even the SD channels crop their films (I remember seeing the chariot race in Ben Hur cropped to 4:3... <shiver>). And to add insult to injury, they advertise "uncut and unedited", a claim also aimed at the ignorant masses, when in actuality the entire film has been edited...

Look at the audio industry, and the popularity of music downloads. Just about every College student has of those iPod jokes stuck in their ear, and while the music may sound half-way decent (being kind) on those tiny ear mics (even though it is compressed to the point that Barbara Streisand and Brittany Spears sound alike), you can now “dock” your iPod in your main system. And people still think it sounds fine…?!? These say it better than I can:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/mp3s-made-me-dumb
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/the-dumbing-down-of-audio/

Sure, a small minority of us here do care about compression and bit rate, but as has been pointed out ad-nauseam the studios will follow the money. And the lion’s share of that rests with J6P.

EDIT:

...Unless people want another laserdisc...

HD media should be so lucky...

there's also the dreaded format war that puts off a lot of j6p's as dvd is good enough for them not to take the hd plunge until either a winner emerges or dual format players become the norm.
I'd say whoever is waiting for a winner to emerge can't really be considered joe six pack.From my experience Joe is the guy content of what he has and who doesn't even want to hear about Hd for a while now.I think it's simply to soon for hd to become a new format.Some people don't even have a dvd player yet,and I somehow doubt that they will skip it to go directly towards high definition. I'm afraid hd will be almost definitely a niche market like laserdisc,but is that so bad ? You'll still be able to enjoy all your discs and the next format is still far away.
Dvd still has a great quality...Hd-dvd and blue ray have not changed that. I'm not saying the difference in audio/video isn't there..It is there and it's impressive indeed. Many just don't think it's worth all that money though and are happy enough to watch films in sd. Especially considering not long ago we were all stuck with pan/scan faded copies of most of the films. You want the best quality available and are glad to pay for it. Others just prefer a good enough quality. And seeing how (as much as I love cinema) I also have other interests I'm less willing to spend more for that jump in quality (big as it is).
Of course everything would be different if I had unlimited funds.,but alas :)

I'd say whoever is waiting for a winner to emerge can't really be considered joe six pack.From my experience Joe is the guy content of what he has and who doesn't even want to hear about Hd for a while now.I think it's simply to soon for hd to become a new format.Some people don't even have a dvd player yet,and I somehow doubt that they will skip it to go directly towards high definition. I'm afraid hd will be almost definitely a niche market like laserdisc,but is that so bad ? You'll still be able to enjoy all your discs and the next format is still far away.
Dvd still has a great quality...Hd-dvd and blue ray have not changed that. I'm not saying the difference in audio/video isn't there..It is there and it's impressive indeed. Many just don't think it's worth all that money though and are happy enough to watch films in sd. Especially considering not long ago we were all stuck with pan/scan faded copies of most of the films. You want the best quality available and are glad to pay for it. Others just prefer a good enough quality. And seeing how (as much as I love cinema) I also have other interests I'm less willing to spend more for that jump in quality (big as it is).
Of course everything would be different if I had unlimited funds.,but alas :)

i don't think anyone who still doesnt have a dvd player is considered j6p either. pretty sure there are more ppl with than without a dvd player by now. it wont be a good thing if HDM becomes niche formats as we will not be getting enough movies that we want if that were to become the case.

while some think dvd is fine and dont want to shell out the money for better, there are also plenty of ppl that have the money and interest but simply don't know there is better quality out there. and some of those ppl once ventured to the hi-def format area, find out he'd have to get 2 players to enjoy the full plethora of movies, will decide to wait another year or two.

I came in here expecting a video of a guy wearing eyeliner, and crying in his bed yelling "Leave Joe Six Pack Alone!"

:mad:

I came in here expecting a video of a guy wearing eyeliner, and crying in his bed yelling "Leave Joe Six Pack Alone!"

:mad:
LEAVE CHRIS CROCKER ALONE!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2p1sJUHow4)

At least this one is actually funny. But I agree, the problem right now isn't that there is a format war holding back consumers, it's the product proposition that people aren't responding to.

Personally I'm in favour of laws requiring people to have a licence and a minimum of 1 year education in order to purchase home theatre gear :p

Personally I'm in favour of laws requiring people to have a licence and a minimum of 1 year education in order to purchase home theatre gear:D:D:D

I suggested it to the dean of the arts faculty at the university I teach at, he told me to never come to his office drunk again :p

I came in here expecting a video of a guy wearing eyeliner, and crying in his bed yelling "Leave Joe Six Pack Alone!"

:mad:

But I do care when that ignorance threatens to limit what is available. A few years back, Warner Brothers released a special edition of “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory” on SD DVD in fool-screen only, because their research told them that filling their screen was more important than seeing the film correctly for the majority of the target audience. We had to petition them to release it OAR (which they eventually did). Before that, WB also released “Space Jam" (yes, I am the other person on this planet who liked it), also cropped for the masses. It wasn’t until several years later that they re-released it OAR (with a soundtrack vastly inferior to the LD, but I digress…).

And there is the obvious one: the HD cable industry. Most of the so-called movie channels (HBO-HD, Cinemax-HD, etc). routinely crop their movies to a 16:9 AR to cater to the lowest common denominator. In that case, I cannot see the movie properly at all just so J6P can have their screen filled. Even the SD channels crop their films (I remember seeing the chariot race in Ben Hur cropped to 4:3... <shiver>). And to add insult to injury, they advertise "uncut and unedited", a claim also aimed at the ignorant masses, when in actuality the entire film has been edited...

Look at the audio industry, and the popularity of music downloads. Just about every College student has of those iPod jokes stuck in their ear, and while the music may sound half-way decent (being kind) on those tiny ear mics (even though it is compressed to the point that Barbara Streisand and Brittany Spears sound alike), you can now “dock” your iPod in your main system. And people still think it sounds fine…?!? These say it better than I can:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/mp3s-made-me-dumb
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/the-dumbing-down-of-audio/

Sure, a small minority of us here do care about compression and bit rate, but as has been pointed out ad-nauseam the studios will follow the money. And the lion’s share of that rests with J6P.



Great post. I agree with every point you made. I shudder when I think about the VHS days when letterboxed movies were almost non-existent (I remember how excited I was to buy Sleeping Beauty in 2.35:1 on VHS before DVDs came out). Things have really improved, but it's sad to see how the J6Ps of the world have limited the "proper" advancing of technology. I still think it would have great if the HDTV aspect standard had been 1.85:1 instead of 16x9. At least with PJs these days w/anamorphic lens setups, it's possible to enjoy movies properly at home.

While I'm ok with Joe 6 pack normally, he will always get my wrath for choosing MP3 over SACD or DVD-A.

It is freakin sad with all these advances in technology that we have gone BACKWARDS as far as sound quality for Music goes. I would take an analog tape over MP3. Also with the speed of broadband and the size of hard drives the fact MP3 is still so widely used is also sad.

I came in here expecting a video of a guy wearing eyeliner, and crying in his bed yelling "Leave Joe Six Pack Alone!"

:mad:

Nobody laughed the first time so you posted it again?:rolleyes:

Joe sixpack has never been of much intrest to me. Elite, modern a go-go, in-the-know, audio-vidiot scientists, such as myself have always know that the real barometer to watch is Joe Sexpack. This porn lovin' wank-a-holic is the real force behind industry trends....;)

Some good points there no doubt...but the biggest one I will fight against is the minimal quality gains or slight improvement argument. Although I *suppose* its subjective, you have to have poor vision OR have to be talking yourself into it if you really feel that HD disc doesnt KILL SD disc all day long on just about every title out there. I mean.... c'mon... I realize that upconverting has come a long way over the last few years but it just doesnt cut it when up against good HD transfers. Not even in the same ballpark. Lets be realistic. I guess if you tell yourself that a Ford Focus is as fast and sexy as a Ferrari 360 Modena.... then maybe in your mind it will be...but...ugggh.

And lets not even get into sound. Regular Dolby 5.1 and even the slightly better Basic DTS mixes on SD discs sound like they are being played through a clock radio when compared to HDMI-based lossless tracks. Again...NOT even close! :rolleyes:

And, the menus on screen while the movie is playing, better extras and opportunities for extras, and interactive content are yet more reasons to embrace HD media.

Hey, J6P can do whatever he wants, its a free country. But dont play the "Theres not much difference" card because that is 100% horse dung.

And, I've got lots of friends that down 6Ps like water. But actually, I'm a hybrid (EE, did a 2.3GHz transceiver in the 8th grade, built my HiFi,...) so my friends worry about getting "too much information."

...you just have to respect the fact that they are the consumer majority...
I'd suggest "respect and fear."

I met Joe, nice guy, had a beer together... In the end, J6P will decide the future of all of this for us, perhaps we should be nice to him.
Just the other day I was asked for techie help by a 6P'er I hardly knew. After getting insight that exceeded their imagination, they offered to buy me a beer. :p

there's also the dreaded format war...
Two big problems, VHS/BetaMax(war) and price. And, the price is way out of line. DVD pricing plus ~$1 for HDM would be OK with J6P.

One of my bigger friends (a J12P), will not buy an HDTV until his old CRT craps out. "Why buy a TV? The old one still works." As you know, the government will solve this problem. (Death of analog tv.) The point, do not waste your time trying to sway J12Ps.

Another would up upgrade his old PC with a 14" CRT. After public humiliation, he broke down. (He gets me to "fix" it and I tell jokes about it.)

As I've instructed may junior engineers, it's not how smart you are that counts. It's how affective you are, which means you must convince others.

Here’s the problem I have with J6P... I do care when that ignorance threatens to limit what is available... cropped for the masses.. I cannot see the movie properly at all just so J6P can have their screen filled...

Hey, this makes B ball players look normal and football player look "just a biscuit way from 400lbs." My favorite - "Look, a fat ballerina!!!"

...Look at the audio industry, and the popularity of music downloads. Just about every College student has of those iPod jokes stuck in their ear,...

Sounds like you need a mission. Get a good pair of noise canceling cans and next time you find a college student - "How does that sound? I'm getting HD audio with this and my little, noise cancelling head phones."......"this stuff does not look "cool", but at least, I look smart."

... the studios will follow the money. And the lion’s share of that rests with J6P...
So help them. Build an army of followers. An example of another recruit:

At the garden center, I was watching a lost soul trying to solve his mole problem. A totally useless, sales guy went over all the options. Then a guy next to them said: "I kill moles for a golf course; this is what I use."

The customer grabbed it off the shelf and gave the sales guy a look that could kill, as in "you stupid idiot." Bam, a new "mole killin expert" is born. (Not the sales guy, usually they just do not get it.)

Brought to you by AVS's self proclaimed DVD fanboy. Just say no to HDM pricing.

Try this:

1. Come to an agreement for the definition of J6P.
2. Raise your hand if that fits your description (60% or more).

While I'm ok with Joe 6 pack normally, he will always get my wrath for choosing MP3 over SACD or DVD-A.

It is freakin sad with all these advances in technology that we have gone BACKWARDS as far as sound quality for Music goes. I would take an analog tape over MP3. Also with the speed of broadband and the size of hard drives the fact MP3 is still so widely used is also sad.

Agree. I'm a huge fan of SACD and I think it's just sad how people in general just don't really care about music quality like they do about video quality. It might just be that audio quality is much more subjectively measured vs measurable video quality parameters, but it still sucks.

... the real barometer to watch is Joe Sexpack. This porn lovin' wank-a-holic is the real force behind industry trends....;)

... interactive content...reasons to embrace HD media...

BINGO and they will not want to distort the image.

Some good points there no doubt...but the biggest one I will fight against is the minimal quality gains or slight improvement argument. Although I *suppose* its subjective, you have to have poor vision OR have to be talking yourself into it if you really feel that HD disc doesnt KILL SD disc all day long on just about every title out there. will be...but...ugggh..

If you read my post carefully I never said there wasn't enough difference..I said there is,and it's an impressive one. My point is that a dvd (with a good encoding) when upconverted looks very very nice. Hd looks amazing, but very nice for most people is good enough seeing also the big difference in price.
It's not like people are stupid or can't see the difference. They just don't feel the jump is big enough to spend all that cash.


And, the menus on screen while the movie is playing, better extras and opportunities for extras, and interactive content are yet more reasons to embrace HD media.

I beg to differ with you in this case. The menus on screen are neat but hardly something which will make me consider upgrading and are a very weak argument.
Better extras ? Usually some ,if not all,the extras from the dvd are dropped and the java games are a joke. Opportunities for extras ? Use this opportunities and then we'll talk. Drop the price (of the disks,not just the player), add some extras,release more classics and then you'll have many other customers.
In the meantime I think I'll offer Joe a beer.

Call me J12P...

I got a 720p 50" RPTV last year and an upconverting player to upgrade my DVD player. I looked at getting an HD optical unit but decided against it due to the format war. For now I am on the sidelines and will see what happens in the next 6 months or so. I don't have a dedicated theatre set up so my Satellite HD, movie watching, sports watching, PS2 gaming all takes place in my living room.

I don't want 2 players or to collect movies in two incompatable formats either. I am not the hard core AV guy like you guys are; but I do read up on these things and there are a lot of J12P guys like me out there. For me it is the format war keeping me on the sidelines and not the cost. Sub $300-$400 is a fine price point for me to buy a player. Heck, my first DVD player cost more than that! If it was DIVX and DVD at that time I would not have bought into DVD either.

When this silly "war" ends I will gladly start watching and collecting HD movies (I have over 200 DVDs and watch 10 movies or so a week, seriously). I would love to watch only HD content. For now it is HD movies off my PVR and upconverted DVDs for now.

Nobody laughed the first time so you posted it again?:rolleyes:

How the hell did it get posted twice? But c'mon! That thread title is misleading. I fully expected a video of AVS forum members.

Wait... that gives me an idea.

If you read my post carefully I never said there wasn't enough difference..I said there is,and it's an impressive one. My point is that a dvd (with a good encoding) when upconverted looks very very nice. Hd looks amazing, but very nice for most people is good enough seeing also the big difference in price.
It's not like people are stupid or can't see the difference. They just don't feel the jump is big enough to spend all that cash.



I beg to differ with you in this case. The menus on screen are neat but hardly something which will make me consider upgrading and are a very weak argument.
Better extras ? Usually some ,if not all,the extras from the dvd are dropped and the java games are a joke. Opportunities for extras ? Use this opportunities and then we'll talk. Drop the price (of the disks,not just the player), add some extras,release more classics and then you'll have many other customers.
In the meantime I think I'll offer Joe a beer.

You make some good points.

Italy? I think I hate you!;)

If you read my post carefully I never said there wasn't enough difference..I said there is,and it's an impressive one. My point is that a dvd (with a good encoding) when upconverted looks very very nice. Hd looks amazing, but very nice for most people is good enough seeing also the big difference in price.
It's not like people are stupid or can't see the difference. They just don't feel the jump is big enough to spend all that cash.

I beg to differ with you in this case. The menus on screen are neat but hardly something which will make me consider upgrading and are a very weak argument.
Better extras ? Usually some ,if not all,the extras from the dvd are dropped and the java games are a joke. Opportunities for extras ? Use this opportunities and then we'll talk. Drop the price (of the disks,not just the player), add some extras,release more classics and then you'll have many other customers.
In the meantime I think I'll offer Joe a beer.

Fair enough. I understand where you are coming from. Its my duty to "pimp" HD since I want it to thrive.

:)

Like most of you I'm not a fan of the" average guy" either,but when I hear about how jsp and his ignorance are damaging the hd format I can't help but disagree.

About this rant regarding "Sei Bottiglie dei Giuseppe" ...

6BdeiG, also known as J6P, is our friend. He knows the value of a dollar and, while he won't be the first on his block with the Latest New Thing, he does like to impress his buddies. He knows he'll never live in a tropical palace like he sees in Miami Vice reruns, but he still aspires to giving his family the best he can afford -- and that includes "upgrading" creature comforts, like TV, which are in his means.

He's also going to shop at Target and Wal-Mart more often Sears and Land's End; but he's also looking to buy stuff that matters to him: so a $6 video bin might be nice, but he'll score brownie points with the 12 y/o at home if he scoops up Transformers in HD and it will look way better than Billy's dad's TV down the block. So for Mrs. J6P he might get the "previously viewed" copy of Ghost; but for J6p Jr., and impressing the other neighbourhood Dad's, maybe $25 "this one time" for Transformers makes it to the check out.

I happen to like the volume buying power of 6BdeiG because he'll make the format possible by buying enough of recent, popular hits to encourage the studios to bring out Breakfast at Tiffany's in glorious Hepburn Technicolor. And I'll be in line to buy that one.

And at the end of the day ... J6P/6BdeiG will be in the game because he could afford the DVD replacement/upgrade in the first place at $179 -- and that included Shrek 3 in HD DVD.

Dont worry. I have thick skin. I dont engage in the format wars threads much anyways. Waste of time. Useless bickering.

One thing that I've been thinking about falls in line with this thread.

Hypothetically, even if there were only one next gen HDM format, and the players and the media cost the same as standard DVD, how long would it take to become the next standard? Definitely some would upgrade, but I would think the majority would stick with their standard dvds. In order to truly appreciate what HDM brings to the table, you need a nice HDTV, receiver, HDMI cables, speakers, and subwoofer. And it would help tremendously to have it arranged properly in the home theater room. That is a lot of money that many J6Ps don't have as disposable income. And even then, there is no guarantee that they could see or hear the difference. Most J6Ps are quite content with their current tv, dvd player, and stereo (if they are even using something nicer than the speakers integrated in their tv!).

I am fully convinced that both BD and HD DVD are going to remain a relatively small niche enthusiast market segment. They have a lot of growth opportunity left, but I don't see how they could ever become as popular as standard dvds have become today.

Joe sixpack has never been of much intrest to me. Elite, modern a go-go, in-the-know, audio-vidiot scientists, such as myself have always know that the real barometer to watch is Joe Sexpack. This porn lovin' wank-a-holic is the real force behind industry trends....;)

Thank you for acknowledging me. :cool:

I am fully convinced that both BD and HD DVD are going to remain a relatively small niche enthusiast market segment. They have a lot of growth opportunity left, but I don't see how they could ever become as popular as standard dvds have become today.

Perhaps you weren't around when the LP was phased out.

Once there is a decent installed base of HD DVD owners, you'll start to see pricing of software closer to (but higher than) DVDs. Then, selected titles will start appearing in HD DVD but not DVDs and back catalog titles start to go out of print. After a period of time, regular new titles get the selected treatment, only coming out in HD DVD.

All this requires a steady hardware upgrade scenario. The studios love this because they can encourage folks to replace their DVDs for HD DVDs -- selling them Casablanca all over again (couldn't happen! LOL).

Your local DVD store is going to look considerably different in 2 years time.

Personally I'm in favour of laws requiring people to have a licence and a minimum of 1 year education in order to purchase home theatre gear :p

Good idea, but let's add the same requirements to having children too. Then maybe we won't see 5 year olds at movies like Saving Private Ryan. :)

And lets not even get into sound. Regular Dolby 5.1 and even the slightly better Basic DTS mixes on SD discs sound like they are being played through a clock radio when compared to HDMI-based lossless tracks. Again...NOT even close! :rolleyes:


The difference between toslink/digital coax dd5.1 and dts and PCM HDMI and 5.1 multichannel analog is so very true.

For years my means of playback was a 480p dvd player. Like many people, I used component and toslink. This past week I made the move to Bluray. Video and sound both were upgraded to hdmi and 5.1 analog. My sound system became alive, resurgent with a new feeling in seperate of each channel that simply did not exist before over conventional toslink/digital.
Suround back channels which before were muffled or barely audible took on a life of their own.

I go out for walks late at night. Evenings are a good time to observe humans. Most people are still up at this hour. And the people who stay up usually have a tv set on whether or not they are paying it any attention. From what I have seen, I beginning to think that outside of the locally owned bar/resteraunt, I am the only person in this entire city who has a tv larger than 32-34."

The problem here is not communications or education or some chuby oreo eating yellow name tagged salesclerk who breasts are larger than your 22 year old girlfriend. The problem as I see it is that in general, people are not accustomed to nice things. A misconception of having nice things means dropping junior's college money and the mortgage.

15 years old when my first reciever was purchased. Later on I noticed recievers sporting the THX logo on store shelves. Priced far behind my little peanut savings could ever muster, I concluded the audio quality of an 800 dollar reciever must be spectacular. But in reality, the audio difference wasn't so much pronounced because I did not realize what I had purchased was such utter complete ****. I didn't know what "good" meant.

But what the hell, checkers sells more than chess.

The difference between toslink/digital coax dd5.1 and dts and PCM HDMI and 5.1 multichannel analog is so very true.

For years my means of playback was a 480p dvd player. Like many people, I used component and toslink. This past week I made the move to Bluray. Video and sound both were upgraded to hdmi and 5.1 analog. My sound system became alive, resurgent with a new feeling in seperate of each channel that simply did not exist before over conventional toslink/digital.
Suround back channels which before were muffled or barely audible took on a life of their own.

I go out for walks late at night. Evenings are a good time to observe humans. Most people are still up at this hour. And the people who stay up usually have a tv set on whether or not they are paying it any attention. From what I have seen, I beginning to think that outside of the locally owned bar/resteraunt, I am the only person in this entire city who has a tv larger than 32-34."

The problem here is not communications or education or some chuby oreo eating yellow name tagged salesclerk who breasts are larger than your 22 year old girlfriend. The problem as I see it is that in general, people are not accustomed to nice things. A misconception of having nice things means dropping junior's college money and the mortgage.

15 years old when my first reciever was purchased. Later on I noticed recievers sporting the THX logo on store shelves. Priced far behind my little peanut savings could ever muster, I concluded the audio quality of an 800 dollar reciever must be spectacular. But in reality, the audio difference wasn't so much pronounced because I did not realize what I had purchased was such utter complete ****. I didn't know what "good" meant.

But what the hell, checkers sells more than chess.

Great post..... especially the "breasts are larger than your 22 year old girlfriend." Killin me..... :D :p

One thing that I've been thinking about falls in line with this thread.

Hypothetically, even if there were only one next gen HDM format, and the players and the media cost the same as standard DVD, how long would it take to become the next standard? Definitely some would upgrade, but I would think the majority would stick with their standard dvds. In order to truly appreciate what HDM brings to the table, you need a nice HDTV, receiver, HDMI cables, speakers, and subwoofer. And it would help tremendously to have it arranged properly in the home theater room. That is a lot of money that many J6Ps don't have as disposable income. And even then, there is no guarantee that they could see or hear the difference. Most J6Ps are quite content with their current tv, dvd player, and stereo (if they are even using something nicer than the speakers integrated in their tv!).

I am fully convinced that both BD and HD DVD are going to remain a relatively small niche enthusiast market segment. They have a lot of growth opportunity left, but I don't see how they could ever become as popular as standard dvds have become today.On similar line, I think it is easy to buy something new but it is a lot harder to upgrade. You first have to justify throwing the old stuff away. Think of other things around you. Computers, furniture, spouse... I am sure plenty of things you would go and get tomorrow if you hadn't had an older and functional version of it.

Personally I'm in favour of laws requiring people to have a licence and a minimum of 1 year education in order to purchase home theatre gear :p

So says the person who can't even spell "license" correctly.

So says the person who can't even spell "license" correctly.

Some locales, they, indeed have liscences. Indeed, the spectre of differnt coloured spelling is formidable... ;)

So says the person who can't even spell "license" correctly.
licence or license
Remember that licence is the noun and license is the verb. In American English, however, the noun is spelled license. To remember the spellings, think of advice (noun) and advise (verb).

I don't think it will ever take over sd-dvd.

I don't think it will ever take over sd-dvd.

IMO, it's not meant to. Studios want mo money. If its new DRM works, eventually I'll guess that HDM will come out earlier than DVD to reach into the deeper pockets and they will still do DVDs to get money out of the poor (or in my case, cheap.)

IMO, it's not meant to. Studios want mo money. If its new DRM works, eventually I'll guess that HDM will come out earlier than DVD to reach into the deeper pockets and they will still do DVDs to get money out of the poor (or in my case, cheap.)
Of course they want money..They're not pushing the hd format simply because the consumers aren't responding.
That Warner cancelled their Hamlet hd-dvd version because of low sales regarding classics should say a lot.
Many might feel shocked to hear how regular people can still watch sd-dvd and not be outraged of the lower resolution,but the truth is many people are really very happy with standard dvd.
Now you realize it's difficult to convince someone to upgrade into something better when they're already very satisfied with what they have (non counting people with loads of money or who live to impress the neighbours).

Hypothetically, even if there were only one next gen HDM format, and the players and the media cost the same as standard DVD, how long would it take to become the next standard? Definitely some would upgrade, but I would think the majority would stick with their standard dvds. In order to truly appreciate what HDM brings to the table, you need a nice HDTV, receiver, HDMI cables, speakers, and subwoofer. And it would help tremendously to have it arranged properly in the home theater room. That is a lot of money that many J6Ps don't have as disposable income. And even then, there is no guarantee that they could see or hear the difference. Most J6Ps are quite content with their current tv, dvd player, and stereo (if they are even using something nicer than the speakers integrated in their tv!).I am fully convinced that both BD and HD DVD are going to remain a relatively small niche enthusiast market segment. They have a lot of growth opportunity left, but I don't see how they could ever become as popular as standard dvds have become today.
Can't help but agree with you..I think it all depends on the price of disks..I can spend 300/500 bucks for a player since it's something I buy once and that's it.But when every hd disk cost twice the price of a regular dvd (which usually also has more extra features) I'm more willing to lose detail and see the glass half full.
Besides,realistically until lcd,plasma and above all professional audio equipments (most of you bitch about lossless..I probably know just a couple of friends who have such a thing,and none of them can crank the voulme because of neighbours) become relatively cheap it will be harder to notice the difference (which might be there,but it's more difficult to spot on a ctr).
Accept the fact that both formats will only be a niche market and you'll be able to enjoy collecting and save some stress.

IMO, it's not meant to. Studios want mo money. If its new DRM works, eventually I'll guess that HDM will come out earlier than DVD to reach into the deeper pockets and they will still do DVDs to get money out of the poor (or in my case, cheap.)

I consider myself just a bit more "above" j6p knowledge wise, but this whole hd-dvd / blu-ray debacle is non-sense. First off, i've got three kids, so I want to back up (some) of my dvd's. Second, one side may loose or if you pick a side, you won't get to watch movie "x" or "y", etc.

I'm seriously considering just buying a used/refurbished Oppo until this whole thing pans out. * Anyone got one? CHEAP? *

Those of you who think J6P does't know anything about HDM are missing a big point. Just about 100% of advertising and promotion for tvs is about HDTV sets. And J6P understands that hi-def TV is clearly better than sd tv.

J6P can easily understand that HD DVD is a hi-def version of DVD just like hi-def TV.

When the price is right he will buy HDM players just like he started buying HDTV sets when the price became right.

Don't underestimate his desire to be totally up-to-date and thus "cooler" than the next guy.

fafner

I disagree. in the Comcast forum on BBR a so called HD viewer was wondering why his HD Broadcasts were 4x3. Come to find out he was watching via Composite connection...At least he knew he should not get 4x3 all the time.

J6P needs to be informed because A LOT of people think that just because they have an HD Display, they are getting HD and right now a lot of J6P'ers are on information overload...