Dreamworks just announced that their Shrek HD DVD will have pip branching. Does this mean that HD DVD beat BD in doing branching? Are there BD titles capable of doing this?

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DreamWorks/Exclusive_HD_Content/New_Shrek_Specs_Promise_Several_HD_DVD_Firsts/1016

Final specs are in for the highly-anticipated HD DVD debut of 'Shrek the Third,' including word of a first-ever branching PIP commentary and the most comprehensive web-enabled content yet.

Although DreamWorks Animation already announced most of the specs for the 'Shrek the Third' HD DVD earlier this month, now they've issued an even more comprehensive rundown of the disc's contents.

First? thought there was another title (import maybe?) that already had it, could be mistaken though.

The first I heard was House on Haunted Hill, but I don't know when that was being released.

Spiderman 2.1 will be out a few weeks before and CE3K will be out on the same day both use seemless branching.

I was under the impression that HD DVD didn't have the bandwidth to do it.

I was under the impression that HD DVD didn't have the bandwidth to do it.
Just BD FUD mongers doing their thing and then chastising the other guys for doing it afterwards.

Spiderman 2.1 will be out a few weeks before and CE3K will be out on the same day both use seemless branching.

I was under the impression that HD DVD didn't have the bandwidth to do it.

Well according to Dreamworks they do have the Bandwidth as per the article, but as with everything in this format war it is better to wait and see before getting over excited.

Also how long until "there's No lossless audio I'm buying the SD version?":)

A feature-length picture-in-picture storyboard reel with a contextual branch to lost scenes

How is that different from the Focus Points in Blood Diamond?

How is that different from the Focus Points in Blood Diamond?

I suppose the most obvious difference is; we can see exactly how it's implemented on Blood Diamond right now, we'll have to wait to do the same with Shrek 3.

Spiderman 2.1 will be out a few weeks before and CE3K will be out on the same day both use seemless branching.I think what is unique is the "a first-ever branching PIP commentary".

I guess that is a good title to showcase these firsts on, though I really disliked the move.... a lot. Have the first two been announced yet? Those two would probably be enough to push me over the line and get an HD DVD player, along with some other titles that I want.

I was under the impression that HD DVD didn't have the bandwidth to do it.
Only under the most straining of scenes... that's the idea I got from a couple of Amir's posts. It CAN be more challenging due to bandwidth constraints, but under most normal conditions isn't a big deal. I'll try to dig up that (those?) posts from the insider thread...

HD-DVD will seamless branch and 98.9% of people won't even notice when it occurs.

You'll find that VERY VERY VERY few if any movies will utilise seamless branching under a bandwidth hungry scene, a good authoror will/should know how to do it correctly.

I've seen it on 4 unreleased titles so far and you cannot tell.

Utilising VC-1 I wouldn't worry, MPOS2 is another matter :p

There really is no magic here. VC-1 and Toshiba tools have supported them for some time. What you have to do is to make sure the splice point between alternate versions does not violate the peak bandwidth. There are many solutions to this with the simplest being picking the right splice point. There are other solutions which I prefer to not discuss in public. But you can search for my comments in the past for some clues :).

That is definitely a good way to deal with it although I don't need we need to add duplicate frames. But rather, make sure the splice point is "quiet." which is not hard to do as the alternate doesn't start a few milliseconds into an explosion :).

(From the insider (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11511595&postcount=336) thread)

The fact that this is an animated title, which will look great even at 10mbps, means that there's plenty of bandwidth to spare.

The fact that this is an animated title, which will look great even at 10mbps, means that there's plenty of bandwidth to spare.

Ding Ding! we have a right answer ;)

Movies like Shrek are sourced from NEAR perfect digital environments, even regular DVD upscaled (ugh! I hate upscaled SD) like Shrek, Cars, etc look great.

I personally don't care too much about animated movies in HD and there is few worthwhile in HD, its stuff shot in REAL life that counts (IMHO)

Shrek 3 was a MAJOR disappointment anyway.

The first seamless branching HD release was Alien vs. Predator released exclusively on Blu-ray on 1/23/07.

Branching I believe is clearly an issue with HD DVD. If not, the german HD DVD version, which seems so packed with stuff would've had seamless branching of the theatrical and director's cut. I'm so frustrated with HD formats, it's best I not say what I think of them at this point. :mad:

My frikken nearly 7 year old Ultimate T2 has seamleass branching - on one disk. It's hard to believe they can't do this now. :rolleyes:

I thought a year ago when they both launched that minor hickups were given, but over a year later and a lot of the technical issues are still there.

Branching I believe is clearly an issue with
My frikken nearly 7 year old Ultimate T2 has seamleass branching - on one disk. It's hard to believe they can't do this now. :rolleyes:


I wouldn't call it seamless my friend, there is a noticeable small pause just before.

The first seamless branching HD release was Alien vs. Predator released exclusively on Blu-ray on 1/23/07.

Beat me to it.

I wouldn't call it seamless my friend, there is a noticeable small pause just before.

Yea, but it was a tremendous leap in technology. It's not perfectly seamless but that's what you get with DVD.

I think the guys who did the NIN HDdvd even mentioned that they had space buy not enough bandwidth to do the alternate angles that they could do on Blu-ray and ****DVD****. Are you kidding me? DVD but not HD DVD? :rolleyes:

Since PiP is in SD, not 1080p HD, wouldn't that take much of the burden off seamless branching also?

Correct me if my understanding is wrong.

I was under the impression that HD DVD didn't have the bandwidth to do it.What does Bandwidth have to do with it? Seamless branching means the player transitions to the next part of the movie without you noticing that doesn't require any more bandwidth, it may need to cache a few seconds of the video to "blend" them together, but considering that the data is being decoded in the buffer anyways that's probably not even necessary to change anything.

IS "contextual branching to alternative scenes" really the same thing as seamless branching? Or is it just an option that pauses the movie and brings up the new scene? That's basically just bookmarking, and a version is possible even on regular DVD.

Seamless branching is what lets you have several versions of the same movie on a disk available to wathc without having to encode the full length movie for each version.

Yea, but it was a tremendous leap in technology. It's not perfectly seamless but that's what you get with DVD.

I think the guys who did the NIN HDdvd even mentioned that they had space buy not enough bandwidth to do the alternate angles that they could do on Blu-ray and ****DVD****. Are you kidding me? DVD but not HD DVD? :rolleyes:


Amen to that brother. Couldn't agree with you more!

Plus DVD is soooo 20th century :p

I don't deny that Bandwidth is an issue with HD-DVD but is it a MAJOR be all end all issue? Seriously I don't think so. It's still early days the technology is still been optimised and improved, DVD was FAR from perfect back in 98/99 it's come a long way since. Watch the original Matrix DVD then watch the newer edition for example. Heck I got an old Panasonic dvd player I bought back in '99 it still works but has compatability and playback issues with some newer discs on the RARE RARE occassion that I use it. Although I felt that at times the companies haven't really learnt from their experience with DVD and with the advent and release of the new HD technologies, it's virtually like starting from scratch, which can be EXTREMLY annoying to the end consumer and as well as to those of us on the production end of the spectrum.

But if I am wrong (and I have been in the past) then I'm wrong and my company and I made a BIG mistake supporting HD-DVD. I doubt that will ever be the case though!

Call it my spider senses.....

Does this mean that HD DVD beat BD in doing branching?

No, BD has had seamless branching since The Descent.

The fact that this is an animated title, which will look great even at 10mbps, means that there's plenty of bandwidth to spare.
Hmmm, that's a bit of a generalisation. Since it'll be an all-digital transfer, there'll be no grain to contend with, but don't underestimate how complex some of the texturing could potentially be.

I've not seen the film, though.

Branching I believe is clearly an issue with HD DVD. If not, the german HD DVD version, which seems so packed with stuff would've had seamless branching of the theatrical and director's cut. I'm so frustrated with HD formats, it's best I not say what I think of them at this point. :mad:

My frikken nearly 7 year old Ultimate T2 has seamleass branching - on one disk. It's hard to believe they can't do this now. :rolleyes:

I thought a year ago when they both launched that minor hickups were given, but over a year later and a lot of the technical issues are still there.
Just a question: which german HDDVD version (emphasized above) are you talking about?

And the HD-DVD feature list keeps growing... Now it also does time travel, to arrive before the previously release BD feature films with seamless branching...

The only difference, as I can understand, is that the user will be able to determine, per scene, when to do the seamless branching or not to an alternative scene. It's interesting.

Shrek 3 was a MAJOR disappointment anyway.

exactly.....I sure the hell am not going to buy it. Honestly who the hell liked this movie?

Sorry for being ignorant guys, but what is seamless branching?

Is there a good definition somewhere that I can look up?

Sorry for being ignorant guys, but what is seamless branching?

Is there a good definition somewhere that I can look up?

Think of it this way (i'll grotesquely simplify).

You can have 3 different versions of a movie (ie theatrical, extended and directors cut)

Now instead of separately encoding 3 SEPARATE versions of a movie, you can have one main version of the film which can branch off to the different scenes, seamless branching means just that! it's seamless you SHOULDN'T be able to tell when your watching the alternative version, by been able to tell I mean by a noticeable pause of jump or something that makes the scene change look wrong.

It's 5am here I should go to bed!

What does Bandwidth have to do with it? Seamless branching means the player transitions to the next part of the movie without you noticing that doesn't require any more bandwidth, it may need to cache a few seconds of the video to "blend" them together, but considering that the data is being decoded in the buffer anyways that's probably not even necessary to change anything.What bandwidth has to do with it is that the caching you are talking about requires a lower average bandwidth for what is being played right before the branch points (so that some of the available bandwidth can be used to cache). So, the 30Mbps overall limit is out the window for the main track right before the branch point. I believe it can fall to about 16Mbps total (although average for a short period) and that includes the audio and everything. One technique to make branching easier would be to make sure the release doesn't have lossless audio. I checked and Shrek 3 has a DD+ 1.5Mbps track and no lossless track, according to highdefdigest.com. But then I think Shrek 3 should be an easier title overall like others have mentioned and so a lossless track might not be a problem anyway.

As I've said before and others mentioned here, HD DVD is capable of doing seamless branching. The questions are how difficult it is and what has to be compromised for the video quality to not take a hit. Do seamless branching with some material that is likely very tough (like the 1.85:1 Saving Private Ryan) with lossless audio at the same bitdepth as the master or even 20/48) without degrading the picture and I'll be impressed.

Also, MI:3 had a branching thing with its commentary. More than one person thought it was an example of seamless branching, but it wasn't from my checking of it. It was seamed branching (meaning a visible pause) for the stuff I looked at.

--Darin

Think of it this way (i'll grotesquely simplify).

You can have 3 different versions of a movie (ie theatrical, extended and directors cut)

Now instead of separately encoding 3 SEPARATE versions of a movie, you can have one main version of the film which can branch off to the different scenes, seamless branching means just that! it's seamless you SHOULDN'T be able to tell when your watching the alternative version, by been able to tell I mean by a noticeable pause of jump or something that makes the scene change look wrong.Good explanation. Just wanted to add that I picture it like train tracks with small alternative paths. If the train takes an alternative track it needs to come back to the main track at some point (unless things end). Although in this case it would be like the train needing to slow down right before a switching spot, even if it is going to stay on the main track.

Seamless branching would be where people on the train can't tell where the train took an alternative path, and seamed branching where they get bumped around (a visual pause in this case) when alternative tracks are taken (and possibly when coming back to the main track too).

--Darin

No, BD has had seamless branching since The Descent.

you mean putting two versions of the movie in a disk and link them together as what they did with the Final Destination DVD?

IS "contextual branching to alternative scenes" really the same thing as seamless branching? Or is it just an option that pauses the movie and brings up the new scene? That's basically just bookmarking, and a version is possible even on regular DVD.

Thats what I thought when looking at this article too.

you mean putting two versions of the movie in a disk and link them together as what they did with the Final Destination DVD?

This is not seamless branching.

The Descent had a PIP commentary encode, and the main movie encode. There was no seamless branching in this title. What you are looking for is PIP Commentary.

This is not seamless branching.

The Descent had a PIP commentary encode, and the main movie encode. There was no seamless branching in this title. What you are looking for is PIP Commentary.

Yes, I believe you need to look at Alien V Predator for a real example of BD seamless branching.

exactly.....I sure the hell am not going to buy it. Honestly who the hell liked this movie?

My gf liked it. I thought it stunk, too. I enjoyed the first two immensely. Of course, if it's all great PQ, etc., many will put it into the must have along with other stinkers like Alexander,300, Troy and Chronicles of Riddick. All of the above is just MHO, of course.

The benefit of Blu-ray's larger bitrate capacity would clearly be utilized for branching since you could have two seam points with 20 Megabits/sec per video stream. HD-DVD's would have to be much lower due to the smaller bit budget.

While the BD branching video streams would be of a higher average bitrate, you could still add on top 24 bit lossless audio with no issues.

I don't deny that Bandwidth is an issue with HD-DVD but is it a MAJOR be all end all issue?

As you say it is still early days but even so there is fairly good evidence that the issue of bandwidth on HD-DVD has come into play already. This is even with the possibilities of in-movie extra features only just starting to be explored.

It will be interesting to see with the first Harry Potter film whether Warner does seemless branching (as was done on the DVD for things such as the language of the address on Harry's letters).

Also it looks like most non-English speaking countries will have to forgo the HD-DVD original language TrueHD track on the fifth movie in order to get a track in an appropriately dubbed language.

I see bandwidth as big an issue as the lack of pip and web connectivity on the blu-ray side but at least bly-ray can resolve these issues where HD-DVD seems pretty much suck with the bandwidth problems.

Also it looks like most non-English speaking countries will have to forgo the HD-DVD original language TrueHD track on the fifth movie in order to get a track in an appropriately dubbed language.


Is that why the EU version of FlagsOfOurfathers and TheLastSamurai has TrueHD where the US version dont have it?

As for dubbing, anyone that wants to watch a dubbed movie wouldnt be that intrested in lossless track.

So DD+ 1,5mbit would work just fine for thoose.

Is that why the EU version of FlagsOfOurfathers and TheLastSamurai has TrueHD where the US version dont have it?

As for dubbing, anyone that wants to watch a dubbed movie wouldnt be that intrested in lossless track.

So DD+ 1,5mbit would work just fine for thoose.

Harry Potter has a substantial young audience and probably because of this Warner seems to be more interested in providing dubs for non-English speaking countries.

What about those people who might want a foreign language dub for their children but still want the original language lossless track and subtitles for themselves.

As for dubbing, anyone that wants to watch a dubbed movie wouldnt be that intrested in lossless track.

So DD+ 1,5mbit would work just fine for thoose.

Um, I certainly want my dubbed movies to have uncompressed or lossless tracks. The ambient sound, score, and dialogue (even if I can't understand it) still should sound as believeable as possible. Besides, not everyone encodes DD+ to its 1.5mbit limit.

In fact, does anyone even know what the ratio of 640k to 1.5m audio encodes are for HD DVD?

Fox used seamless branching on Alien vs. Predator to provide the original Theatrical PG-13 and Unrated releases on Blu-ray which was released on January 23, 2007.

So, to answer the OP's question, NO, HD DVD will not beat Blu-ray to market for seamless branching.

...not everyone encodes DD+ to its 1.5mbit limit.From reading the whitepapers it looks like the limit for DD+ on HD DVD is more like 3.0 Mbps for 5.1 channels. Universal, Paramount and Weinstein have been using 1.5 Mbps DD+. Apparently no studio has thought it worthwhile to go up to 3.0 Mbps DD+.

Benes has been maintaining a title spec list in HD DVD Software: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10073947#post10073947

Edit: On Benes list I see some Japanese produced HD DVD's that use 2046 Kbps 5.1 DD+.

The Descent had a PIP commentary encode, and the main movie encode. There was no seamless branching in this title. What you are looking for is PIP Commentary.

The Descent has both rated and unrated version of the main feature and a second encode with the PiP.

AVP also has branching.

If you want to imagine that HD DVD is somehow innovative with something, branching is not the place to look.

Everyone harping on how BD had seamless branching first: RTFA, or at least the first post in this thread. The PIP commentary is doing the branching. How many BDs do that?

The topic is HD DVD to beat Blu-ray in doing branching?

The answer is no.

End of story.

The topic is HD DVD to beat Blu-ray in doing branching?

The answer is no.

End of story.

Fox used seamless branching on Alien vs. Predator to provide the original Theatrical PG-13 and Unrated releases on Blu-ray which was released on January 23, 2007.

So, to answer the OP's question, NO, HD DVD will not beat Blu-ray to market for seamless branching.

So, let's examine what it means between ...

Blu-ray vs. seamless branching???

---------------------------
AVP
"'Alien vs. Predator' includes a pop-up trivia track. However, there are no production factoids or cast and crew info here. Instead, all of the info is relayed as if it is a secret transmission. Lots of gobbledygook follows about the Alien and Predator races, their histories, and the mythology as depicted in the film. The little TV screen icons are cute, and the text moves along at a fairly quick pace. But I have to admit that it got a bit tedious after a while, as only diehard Alien and Predator fans will likely get into such minutiae."

... i.e. no real IME / U-Control PiP video track running concurrently during the movie!!!

---------------------------
The Descent:
"Lionsgate has, so far, been the only Blu-ray-supporting studio to attempt an HD DVD-like, "In-Movie Experience" option on any of their titles. 'The Descent' was the first, and as of this writing, 'Crank' is the only other title to include the feature. However, unlike the HD DVD format's HDi environment, which allows for live in-player mixing of two separate video streams, Blu-ray BD-Java tools are currently MIA. So Lionsgate took the more obvious route, encoding a full, separate version of the film, complete with those little video picture-in-picture boxes over the main feature, to simulate the IME experience.

... i.e. no real IME / U-Control PiP video track running concurrently during the movie!!!

---------------------------
Crank:
"There is plenty of behind-the-scenes material, which is where these picture-in-picture commentaries really excel, allowing comparisons between the final cut and on-set stunt and effects footage, etc. You can even "answer the phone" for more (exclusive to Blu-ray) making-of vignettes. Just click your remote when the phone icon appears, and the disc will branch off to additional content, before returning you back to the movie. While I don't love the idea of encoding a whole extra version of the movie on disc to serve up features like this, until Blu-ray works through the technical hurdles behind true picture-in-picture interactivity, this works just fine."

... i.e. no real IME / U-Control PiP video track running concurrently during the movie!!!



So, "Shrek" is the first first-ever branching PIP commentary in that it will seamlessly branch between ...

1) TRUE Picture-in-picture video commentary (HD DVD HDi)
2) "Animator's Reel"
.... a) present an entire alternate version of the film in storyboard form.
3) "contextual seamless branch" to lost scenes.
4) "contextual seamless branch" to other content.

... WHICH MEANS - While The Movie is PLAYING!!!

No Blu-ray simulation here, ... because HD DVD players has since Day-ONE (1st Gen. 2006 HD Players up to and including this fall /winter $149 to $199 HD DVD Players) has ...

FULL-FUNCTION IME / U-Control (PiP) and Internet connectivity!!! :D ;) :cool:

Something that eludes Blu-ray because are still working through the technical hurdles behind true picture-in-picture interactivity!!!

Ya' all know that Paramount year's worth of experience w/Blu-ray revealed ...

1) BD-50s cost (subsidy from Sony on BD-50's is now over),
2) BD-50s w/40% to 10% yields, (vs. 95%+ yields from HD30's)
3) BD-J inconsistent spec. / difficulty programming
4) Lack of PiP Interactivity,
5) Lack of 256MB of persistent memory
6) Stand-alone inability to connect to the Internet,

Phil

So, let's examine what it means between ...

Blu-ray vs. seamless branching???

...


Can you explain how any of that answers the question in the topic?

Perhaps you should start a new thread with a topic name that matches your argument. Something the OP should have done originally.