Adam Gregorich from the Home Theater Forum apparently notices the problem with BD's profile issue. He said the its a chicken and egg issue where the studios don’t want to include features that people with current players can’t use, and the hardware manufactures don’t want to make players when there is no software to support the features.

http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=3C644C50F0DA47FDA581C56C5FDF5FC7&nm=Hi-Def+News&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=491962167AC04FE79ACCC803B6D481AA

But after all the new Blu-ray set-top boxes were announced at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association (CEDIA) Expo in Denver in early September, Adam Gregorich of the Home Theater Forum noticed a problem.

“I found it telling that of all the new players announced at CEDIA, only one company announced players that support profile 1.1,” he said, pointing to two Denon players, the DVD-3800BDCI and DVD-2500BTCI, which are slated for release in 2008. “Also, there is no ‘sunset clause’ on existing players, so any player shipping before [Oct. 31] can continue shipping as a [version] 1.0 player indefinitely.”

Disney has announced two titles that have special features that require BD Live for 2008: National Treasure and Sleeping Beauty. Several 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment Blu-ray titles in the pipeline call for picture-in-picture features.

But what if few set-top players available to consumers can play the special features?

“I think that BD has a chicken-and-egg problem,” Gregorich said, adding most existing Blu-ray players won’t be upgradeable, with the exception of the PlayStation 3, because of its high-powered central processing unit. “The studios don’t want to include features that people with current players can’t use, and the hardware manufactures don’t want to make players when there is no software to support the features.

I think it's also a problem that Studios have no BD 1.1 players to test future releases on.

And with all those BD 1.0 players on the market forever, effectively, and no BD 1.1 players, there will never be much in the way of 1.1 releases - they'll be a fraction of the releases in 2008.

...and that doesn't *begin* to even talk about BD 2.0...

BD 1.1 is effectively dead-in-the-water... a non-starter.

And this is not un-noticed by the studios and other industry decision-makers. It certainly makes Bluray look like all hype, no play.

BD 1.1 is effectively dead-in-the-water... a non-starter.

And this is not un-noticed by the studios and other industry decision-makers. It certainly makes Bluray look like all hype, no play.

I agree with this. After the PotC thing, I would think that studios are reluctant to put big apps on their discs. The longer they hold off, the more players are sold that won't work with these features. It is very possible that 1.1 type apps will never really materialize in a big way. The problem is that studios believe that these features are the way to get people to buy movies. Quite the catch 22.

I really like this part:
“I found it telling that of all the new players announced at CEDIA, only one company announced players that support profile 1.1,” he said, pointing to two Denon players, the DVD-3800BDCI and DVD-2500BTCI, which are slated for release in 2008. “Also, there is no ‘sunset clause’ on existing players, so any player shipping before [Oct. 31] can continue shipping as a [version] 1.0 player indefinitely.”So the players that are reaching economies of scale (or would do so first) are also the outdated ones. At least it looks like they'll be able to continue manufacturing and selling them...:rolleyes:

I wonder how much of the hardware is shared...otherwise, they'll start over in the cost department. Great job, BDA!!

I've said from day one this was trouble with a capital T. Apparently few editorials agree because they either fail to mention it, or mention it without giving a clue as to what it means. Though it's been a little more visible since CEDIA didn't announce a flurry of 1.1 players, and the set compliance date is now so close you can taste it.

However as usual, I just saw a banner BD add from Sony that misleadingly talked about BD as if it was the format offering the most advanced features.

I really like this part:
So the players that are reaching economies of scale (or would do so first) are also the outdated ones. At least it looks like they'll be able to continue manufacturing and selling them...:rolleyes:

I wonder how much of the hardware is shared...otherwise, they'll start over in the cost department. Great job, BDA!!

Very interesting point. The whole way that the BDA has "managed" their format has been a total and utter train wreck. :) It's pretty clear that they were forced to release their players in an unfinished form because HD DVD was ready last year. I really think such tactics will come back to haunt them. It is also representative of the way the PS3 has been managed as well, especially considering the "home" functionality. Nothing seems to have been thought out very well, and those things that have been released seemed to be rushed out to allow them to make announcements, but ultimately fail to meet expectations.

I know that most BD proponents will argue that "it's about the movies..." and perhaps they have even convinced themselves of the fact because some of them have spent upwards of $1000 for a 1.0 player, but I know I wouldn't be happy with the situation if I had a stand-alone BD player... and I believe such would be true for most people who care about their money, and aren't drinking the blu-ray koolaid. :)

I've said from day one this was trouble with a capital T. Apparently few editorials agree because they either fail to mention it, or mention it without giving a clue as to what it means. Though it's been a little more visible since CEDIA didn't announce a flurry of 1.1 players, and the set compliance date is now so close you can taste it.

However as usual, I just saw a banner BD add from Sony that misleadingly talked about BD as if it was the format offering the most advanced features.

Add to all this that you may need firmware to watch BD+ and profile 1.1 titles, and it becomes even worse. People here will be fine, but the average guy who has never burned a FW update to disc, will be in big trouble,

Very interesting point. The whole way that the BDA has "managed" their format has been a total and utter train wreck. :) It's pretty clear that they were forced to release their players in an unfinished form because HD DVD was ready last year. I really think such tactics will come back to haunt them. It is also representative of the way the PS3 has been managed as well, especially considering the "home" functionality. Nothing seems to have been thought out very well, and those things that have been released seemed to be rushed out to allow them to make announcements, but ultimately fail to meet expectations.

I know that most BD proponents will argue that "it's about the movies..." and perhaps they have even convinced themselves of the fact because some of them have spent upwards of $1000 for a 1.0 player, but I know I wouldn't be happy with the situation if I had a stand-alone BD player... and I believe such would be true for most people who care about their money, and aren't drinking the blu-ray koolaid. :)

Yep...if (yeah, I said "if') 1.1 is ever released, and then if studios actually produce 1.1 discs (where the features won't work on 100% of the players out today), the BDA has a customer relations nightmare on its hands.

I assume that's why they are trying so hard to convince everyone that HD DVD is dead...because if HD DVD dies now, they won't have to deal with 1.1 and can just continue on with 1.0 and no next-generation features or interactivity.

Commenting on the article itself . . .

It is evident that the BDA is concerned about the profile issue. This is now the 4th or 5th article/blog written about the missing profiles.

The BDA is reacting in their normal manner IMO . . .little or no effect on the consumer . . .

Until the consumer(s) start a class action suit like they did with the HDTV's that can't accept a 1080P signal even though they are billed as "Full HD" or "Full 1080P"

Lawsuits are the LAST type of PR anyone wants to see - even if they go nowheres. The old adage of no such thing as bad press does not include lawsuits. You can be sure of that (IMO)

I agree with this. After the PotC thing, I would think that studios are reluctant to put big apps on their discs. The longer they hold off, the more players are sold that won't work with these features. It is very possible that 1.1 type apps will never really materialize in a big way. The problem is that studios believe that these features are the way to get people to buy movies. Quite the catch 22.

I'm starting to like you :)

You are really an objective guy..I"ve been reading your posts...

I'm starting to like you .. no homo :)

You are really an objective guy..I"ve been reading your posts...
Thanks. I am fascinated by the whole dynamic of these formats, companies and their adherents. In the end it really doesn't matter to me who wins.

Judging by this, and as we already knew, it seems that Profile 1.1 will never materialize.

The more and more standalones are being sold with Profile 1.0 and we see that all manufacturers really have no interest of creating Profile 1.1 players because of software support, the more it becomes likely that Blu-Ray will not pass more then 1.0. They just can't risk it and the more Profile 1.0 and poor interactivity and features support gets cut the more studios like Warner will prefer HD DVD.

I just wonder when Disney realizes this.

Judging by this, and as we already knew, it seems that Profile 1.1 will never materialize.

The more and more standalones are being sold with Profile 1.0 and we see that all manufacturers really have no interest of creating Profile 1.1 players because of software support, the more it becomes likely that Blu-Ray will not pass more then 1.0. They just can't risk it and the more Profile 1.0 and poor interactivity and features support gets cut the more studios like Warner will prefer HD DVD.

I just wonder when Disney realizes this.

Although I can see what you are saying. I think the fact that 1.1 players have that added functionality is a selling point in itself. Whether there will be software that really takes advantage of it? Who knows.... but then again most movies don't require 50GB.. :D

Keep your chickens. I'm a beef steak man:)

Add to all this that you may need firmware to watch BD+ and profile 1.1 titles, and it becomes even worse. People here will be fine, but the average guy who has never burned a FW update to disc, will be in big trouble,

to be fair, average guys do not buy >$1,000 BD players. When these people buy into BD, it will be the day when the price is <$250 with complete spec without any update ;)

to be fair, average guys do not buy >$1,000 BD players. When these people buy into BD, it will be the day when the price is <$250 with complete spec without any update ;)

I agree, but how will they know if the if a player comes with a complete spec? They may buy and open box special this holiday season for $250.
I almost made that mistake and bought a Samsung BD-P1000. Then I read about all the issues with it here.

erm what happened to the any parsons plays down the profile issue thread ?

to be fair, average guys do not buy >$1,000 BD players. When these people buy into BD, it will be the day when the price is <$250 with complete spec without any update ;)

i should live so long ;) ;)

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.

BDA silence on this and BD50 production problems speaks louder than our words

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.

You won't see a problem until a house falls on you. :rolleyes:

BDA silence on this and BD50 production problems speaks louder than our words

If there is an issue, as a consumer its not affecting me, so why should I care? You're acting like people cant buy movies because there aren't enough discs to go around which is definitely not the case.

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.Yup...isn't that the typical bland?..."nothing to see here, move along"...:rolleyes: Here's a NEWS FLASH for you: not everyone can spend as much on equipment. Unfortunately for your format of choice, there are A LOT of people out there that will see this as another reason not to adopt Blu-ray (as if player price isn't off-putting enough). There's certainly no reason to adopt Blu-ray when another technology exists for a lot less, isn't losing major studio support and...can it be?...yup, even MORE features and capabilities. Yup, Blu-ray is the clear choice. Sure.

Add to all this that you may need firmware to watch BD+ and profile 1.1 titles, and it becomes even worse. People here will be fine, but the average guy who has never burned a FW update to disc, will be in big trouble,

How many hddvd players have needed firmware upgrades?

BDA silence on this and BD50 production problems speaks louder than our words

Why is that? Do they need to answer to you or me about yields as long as it isn't costing you or me more for the movies? who cares quit making this a issue for the consumer when it is not!!

I think it's also a problem that Studios have no BD 1.1 players to test future releases on.

And with all those BD 1.0 players on the market forever, effectively, and no BD 1.1 players, there will never be much in the way of 1.1 releases - they'll be a fraction of the releases in 2008.

...and that doesn't *begin* to even talk about BD 2.0...

BD 1.1 is effectively dead-in-the-water... a non-starter.

And this is not un-noticed by the studios and other industry decision-makers. It certainly makes Bluray look like all hype, no play.

Incidentally, that was one of Paramount's reasons for dropping the Blu.;)
Interesting thing is which other studio will follow their lead come January 2008? ;)

The PS3 will likely (99%) be 1.1 and 2.0 compliant. That is why I bought a PS3 as my BD player, it is the only market ready machine out there.

The rest won't be, and most won't notice until the software arrives (if ever).

Hopefully the 2.0 players will be cheap or else either Hardware will be returned or software will be returned.

Either way, ugly.

This is why I lean red and buy far more HDs.

The PS3 will likely (99%) be 1.1 and 2.0 compliant.

Problem is, will it be the current 60G or the soon to be released 80G models?

Incidentally, that was one of Paramount's reasons for dropping the Blu.;)
Interesting thing is which other studio will follow their lead come January 2008? ;)
You better hope Hd dvd sells a ton of units this xmas because the PS3 will and then you will all still cry about attach rates because PS3 will sell more this xmas than all SA Blu Ray and HD DVD players combined! SO if every person who gets a ps3 this x-mas buys 1 movie just 1 then it will be at least 70% to 30 at some point this x-mas season.

Very interesting point. The whole way that the BDA has "managed" their format has been a total and utter train wreck. :) It's pretty clear that they were forced to release their players in an unfinished form because HD DVD was ready last year. I really think such tactics will come back to haunt them. It is also representative of the way the PS3 has been managed as well, especially considering the "home" functionality. Nothing seems to have been thought out very well, and those things that have been released seemed to be rushed out to allow them to make announcements, but ultimately fail to meet expectations.


Another thing is that there may be too many controlling members in the BDA. Too many companies have to sign off on things to get them done. I know the Blu-ray supporters tout more members as a pro; but, when it comes to making decisions and getting things done, it can work against you. Sometimes it's best to have just a few companies running the show.

Problem is, will it be the current 60G or the soon to be released 80G models?

Doesn't matter they are all capable because of the cell to upgrade and maybe even in some time they will switch out the motherboard to one that for sure can do DTSMA as we are still not sure if they can upgrade current models.

Problem is, will it be the current 60G or the soon to be released 80G models?
And what will they play if the studios don't support 1.1 and 2.0?

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.

I don't think studios want HDM to be a "Let them eat cake." elitist format like laserdisc, to me that means BD has a definite shelf-life if doesn't start looking like something most can afford and use soon.

I always come back to the same thing, I'm a new buyer, what is BD giving me for twice the $ of HD DVD?

Problem is, will it be the current 60G or the soon to be released 80G models?

Likely both, the processing will be managed by the cell.

The 60G (NA edition) has the PS2 chipset, so it's better. The 80G is all emulation, it has problems.

If the PS3 cannot be upgraded I'll be ticked!

I use it mainly for web surfing ... again, the HD movies generally have better features so I buy them.

I only buy BD if I have no choice (Disney).

The BDA is reacting in their normal manner IMO . . .little or no effect on the consumer . . . Exactly - translation: "Dear studios and industry partners - the consumers are just too STUPID to understand what this means to them, so it's not really important"...

Exactly - translation: "Dear studios and industry partners - the consumers are just too STUPID to understand what this means to them, so it's not really important"...

I think it's just plain bad business (not to mention unethical) if your sales become predicated on keeping a "dirty little secret" from your potential buyer.

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.?? Somewhere, over the rainbow...

You better hope Hd dvd sells a ton of units this xmas because the PS3 will and then you will all still cry about attach rates because PS3 will sell more this xmas than all SA Blu Ray and HD DVD players combined! SO if every person who gets a ps3 this x-mas buys 1 movie just 1 then it will be at least 70% to 30 at some point this x-mas season.

And you know this how?
A magazine from the future, time machine...how?...:confused:

And you know this how?
A magazine from the future, time machine...how?...:confused:

I Guarentee The PS3 will sell more console this x-mas season worldwide than all Blu Ray and HDDVD SA's will put together and I don't need a crystal ball to be right about that!

I don't think studios want HDM to be a "Let them eat cake." elitist format like laserdisc, to me that means BD has a definite shelf-life if doesn't start looking like something most can afford and use soon. Absolutely.

Right now, I see the BDA playing a game to buy themselves another 18 months to fix their basic problems. They do not have the production capacity to go mass market, and so will try to restrain HDM and keep it "niche" for another 18 months. Remember the BDA were the first to mention this "format war will last another 18 months" mantra.

This works AGAINST the interests of the studios, who would like to see mass-market volume levels to try to make some money. Knowing that another 18 months of stagnation may KILL the HDM market deader than a doornail, they will likely choose to go with the format that can break out of this "niche" mold, and go mass-market TODAY... HD DVD.

Absolutely.

Right now, I see the BDA playing a game to buy themselves another 18 months to fix their basic problems. They do not have the production capacity to go mass market, and so will try to restrain HDM and keep it "niche" for another 18 months. Remember the BDA were the first to mention this "format war will last another 18 months" mantra.

This works AGAINST the interests of the studios, who would like to see mass-market volume levels to try to make some money. Knowing that another 18 months of stagnation may KILL the HDM market deader than a doornail, they will likely choose to go with the format that can break out of this "niche" mold, and go mass-market TODAY... HD DVD.

There is still no proof the Blu Ray can't meet the production needs put on it? I think people forget they are pressing alot of BD game discs also and Until a game is delayed for "Production" reasons they are making enough fast enough for the market!

There is still no proof the Blu Ray can't meet the production needs put on it? I think people forget they are pressing alot of BD game discs also and Until a game is delayed for "Production" reasons they are making enough fast enough for the market!AS far as I know all games are 25s and have far less production issues than 50s.

There is still no proof the Blu Ray can't meet the production needs put on it? I think people forget they are pressing alot of BD game discs also and Until a game is delayed for "Production" reasons they are making enough fast enough for the market!Except we are obviously NOT talking about games here...

What more proof do you need that Bluray is not ready to go mainstream for movies?

(1) No BD 1.1 players, a year and a half after the start of the format war, they are still shipping players based on their "interim" launch spec, which can't to the "advanced" stuff they are advertising and promoting.
(2) 20 or 30 bluray production lines with most BD50 production capacity being garbage that has to be discarded. Yields reported at between 10% and 50%. Most BD50 lines apparently lying idle due to yield issues. Few people wanting to buy BD50 lines because they'll be the idiots that paid through the nose and are uncompetitive later on when they competitors potentially buy cheaper machines that actually work.
(3) Almost every week there is another report of some major movie release being delayed due to unspecified "production issues". Considering a DVD release can make 50% of it's sales in the first week, this is a HUGE issue of concern for studios.
(4) Paucity of BD-J authoring/production tools for studios to use
(5) Higher costs of production/mastering/authoring/replication
(6) "Spread out" efforts to develop BD player platforms results in more expensive development - in comparison HD DVD reference platforms can be rapidly deployed by various manufacturers in various relevant configurations to suit multiple price and feature points.

How many hddvd players have needed firmware upgrades?

All of them, and honestly, I think that's a problem with both formats. There will be some who just won't be an I.T. guy for their video player when DVD doesn't require pampering.

You better hope Hd dvd sells a ton of units this xmas because the PS3 will and then you will all still cry about attach rates because PS3 will sell more this xmas than all SA Blu Ray and HD DVD players combined! SO if every person who gets a ps3 this x-mas buys 1 movie just 1 then it will be at least 70% to 30 at some point this x-mas season.

I like your optimism, regardless of how ludacris and unreal it really is. PS3 selling a ton of consoles.. hahaha..on what? to play what? Don't you see that's why everyone is saying that Sony needs a $399 or lower SKU to move any PS3 units. People are dropping PS3 like a hot potato. Drop for the last couple of weeks has been over 40%. If PS3 survives by still retaining developer support until Q1 2008 I'll be surprised.

People are simply not inclined to buy PS3 anymore. It has become a Blu-Ray player only with very little games.

If it sells 500k units over the holiday season I'll be very surprised.

I like your optimism, regardless of how ludacris and unreal it really is. PS3 selling a ton of consoles.. hahaha..on what? to play what? Don't you see that's why everyone is saying that Sony needs a $399 or lower SKU to move any PS3 units. People are dropping PS3 like a hot potato. Drop for the last couple of weeks has been over 40%. If PS3 survives by still retaining developer support until Q1 2008 I'll be surprised.

People are simply not inclined to buy PS3 anymore. It has become a Blu-Ray player only with very little games.

If it sells 500k units over the holiday season I'll be very surprised.

Care to make a friendly wager If PS3 sells less than 500k units worldwide I will buy you 2 HDDVD's of your choice if it sells between 500k and 1 mil I will still buy you 1 IF it sells over 1 Mil you buy me 1 Blu Ray title and if over 1.5 mil you buy me 2?

Problem is, will it be the current 60G or the soon to be released 80G models?

The 80GB model is already out. According to VG Chartz they sold 15,000. They know this because the only way to get Motorstorm is to get it with the 80GB PS3 - that is how many went through the retailers POS systems.

Care to make a friendly wager If PS3 sells less than 500k units worldwide I will buy you 2 HDDVD's of your choice if it sells between 500k and 1 mil I will still buy you 1 IF it sells over 1 Mil you buy me 1 Blu Ray title and if over 1.5 mil you buy me 2?

latest reports said that 55% of all the PS3 sold were on its 1st month of launch. the remaing 45% sales span the following 9 months! you do the math ;)

How many hddvd players have needed firmware upgrades?

All. How many updates has the PS3 received?

You better hope Hd dvd sells a ton of units this xmas because the PS3 will and then you will all still cry about attach rates because PS3 will sell more this xmas than all SA Blu Ray and HD DVD players combined! SO if every person who gets a ps3 this x-mas buys 1 movie just 1 then it will be at least 70% to 30 at some point this x-mas season.

Did this happen last Xmas? Every PS3 owner buying 1 movie?

Care to make a friendly wager If PS3 sells less than 500k units worldwide I will buy you 2 HDDVD's of your choice if it sells between 500k and 1 mil I will still buy you 1 IF it sells over 1 Mil you buy me 1 Blu Ray title and if over 1.5 mil you buy me 2?

No, cause I don't really care...

but here..let's take a look at facts..I was just throwing numbers there..

Last year..during holiday season..at PS3 launch when the hype was high and no Halo 3

Playstation sold (November to December - considered holiday season) around750k units.

Fast forward to August..PS3 with price cut of 60gb version, sold 130,600 units. So let's double that number of holiday season (even though we might see more accurate predicition after Sept. numbers are out). 260k + 260k for 2 months.. we are talking around 600k units..they might hit similar numbers as last year with some luck if the prices stay the same.

On the other hand Xbox 360 sold 2 million last year and that was without any super special games.. This year they'll absolutely kill PS3 and I estimate they will sell close 3-4 million consoles. Why I'm mentioning the Xbox 360 here is because Wii and Xbox 360 will take away most of the customers ready to buy a game consoles this holiday season.

All. How many updates has the PS3 received?
It has received lots most were not for Blu Ray playback but it is painless to update ps3 as long as you connected to internet of course, but that just makes my point where is nothing thus far is a finshed product not needing tweaks to conform to new things!

I Guarentee The PS3 will sell more console this x-mas season worldwide than

Speaking of the PS3 - Sony's BIGGEST problem with rolling out a cheaper SKU of the PS3 is the millions of regular PS3's still sitting rotting in distribution channels and choking up store and warehouse space.

If Sony does a small run (as is expected) of these cheaper PS3's to use as "bait", there will still be masses of the more expensive unit in distribution that are still not sold. I'm sure retailers will be REALLY happy and excited when they hear about the cheaper ones popping up online and elsewhere while they are stuck with masses of the more expensive version.

To put this in perspective, I was at Best Buy tonight returning a receiver and I saw dozens and dozens of the PS3s stacked up all over the store. They have far too many, much more than they can sell, and do not know where to put them. They are even piled up all around the customer service counters because they have no where else to put them.

Here is a video I took - http://www.campaignhd.com/images/MOV-0029.3gp

Did this happen last Xmas? Every PS3 owner buying 1 movie?

I don't have the numbers but I would say no not every PS3 bought a movie to go with it, though with the popularity of Blu Ray movies increasing it is debatable
that with higher visibilty of the movies with advertising and ads that more people may purchase or receive a movie with a new PS3 purchase.

On the other hand Xbox 360 sold 2 million last year and that was without any super special games.. This year they'll absolutely kill PS3 and I estimate they will sell close 3-4 million consoles. Why I'm mentioning the Xbox 360 here is because Wii and Xbox 360 will take away most of the customers ready to buy a game consoles this holiday season.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=nfinity;11761187]No, cause I don't really care...

but here..let's take a look at facts..I was just throwing numbers there..

Last year..during holiday season..at PS3 launch when the hype was high and no Halo 3

Playstation sold (November to December - considered holiday season) around750k units.

Fast forward to August..PS3 with price cut of 60gb version, sold 130,600 units. So let's double that number of holiday season (even though we might see more accurate predicition after Sept. numbers are out). 260k + 260k for 2 months.. we are talking around 600k units..they might hit similar numbers as last year with some luck if the prices stay the same.

Oh I think you care.. as you said you were just throwing out numbers without thinking about them remember the PS3 did sell out last x-mas they did not have enough to go around and they went on sale nov17th very close time to Christmas the problem was people thought you couldn't find one or were turned off by the 599 price tag but if the rumored sku si correct at 399 with the whole Christmas season to sell them I would wager they will sell a lot of them!

I don't even think that Sony will be lowering the price on Playstation anymore judging by what Kazuo Hirai says. He says that they won't be cutting price until they have content to back it up. Even though they think about price cuts every day, it doesn't really makes sense to them until they have more content.


Sony to push Blu-ray for PS3 instead of price cuts this Christmas

Sony Computer Entertainment is well aware of the speculation surrounding the PlayStation 3's pricing, but chief Kazuo Hirai admits his company will be prioritizing elsewhere for its holiday season strategy. Specifically, the name of the game will be pushing PS3 as a Blu-ray player to attract Christmas sales before announcing any further official price cuts.

Sony would rather build confidence by establishing a stronger lineup of game titles in order to make additional price cuts even more attractive. That said, Hirai reportedly explained that he nevertheless thinks about PS3 pricing "every single day"

"The PS3 is first and foremost a video games machine but we want to say – by the way, it’s a great Blu-ray player as well," Mr Hirai said. Marketing efforts in the US, Europe and Japan would highlight the PS3 as a Blu-ray disc player as well.
"Going aggressive only on price without being able to back it up with content doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me," he said. A price cut would have a "real impact" on sales only if there were enough software titles to support the PS3.

I don't even think that Sony will be lowering the price on Playstation anymore judging by what Kazuo Hirai says. He says that they won't be cutting price until they have content to back it up. Even though they think about price cuts every day, it doesn't really makes sense to them until they have more content.


Quote him all you want.... But do you actually believe it?

I don't have the numbers but I would say no not every PS3 bought a movie to go with it, though with the popularity of Blu Ray movies increasing it is debatable
that with higher visibilty of the movies with advertising and ads that more people may purchase or receive a movie with a new PS3 purchase.

So now you assume that all PS3's purchased are going to be attached to an HDTV? Remember - no HDTV - no HD movies - no reason to buy a BD disc.

National average is about 15% of all TV's are HDTV's. That means that there is an 85% chance a PS3 owner will not buy a BD movie because he doesn't own an HDTV.

So if they sell 750,000 PS3's this Xmas - that would generate about 112,500 movie sales.

If they sell 500,000 HD DVD players (including the AO) then there is a excellent chance that each will buy a movie because only one reason to buy an HD DVD player - to watch an HD movie.

So now you assume that all PS3's purchased are going to be attached to an HDTV? Remember - no HDTV - no HD movies - no reason to buy a BD disc.

National average is about 15% of all TV's are HDTV's. That means that there is an 85% chance a PS3 owner will not buy a BD movie because he doesn't own an HDTV.

So if they sell 750,000 PS3's this Xmas - that would generate about 112,500 movie sales.

If they sell 500,000 HD DVD players (including the AO) then there is a excellent chance that each will buy a movie because only one reason to buy an HD DVD player - to watch an HD movie.

Agreed but how many HDTV's are expected to sell this Holiday season and also how many households is 15% as that number also hurts the thought of how many people will buy a HD DVD or a Blur Ray player!

I don't even think that Sony will be lowering the price on Playstation anymore judging by what Kazuo Hirai says. He says that they won't be cutting price until they have content to back it up. Even though they think about price cuts every day, it doesn't really makes sense to them until they have more content.

Well it looks like Xbox 360 will not do any price cutting. Instead they will do what they have been doing in Canada - bundling . . . including game(s) and extra stuff like headsets and controllers.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11283.cfm

Did anyone like my video? :D

I guess also we would need demographics on how many people with PS3's don't have HDTV's?

Well it looks like Xbox 360 will not do any price cutting. Instead they will do what they have been doing in Canada - bundling . . . including game(s) and extra stuff like headsets and controllers.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11283.cfm

Certainly, but unlike new Playstation customer who actually get butchered console when compared to the original 60gb version, these new Xbox's based on Falcon core (65nm one) also have HDMI and there's word that even core, going for $279, will now have wireless controllers and HDMI.

Add bundles and included games and the value of these Xboxs goes down even further. Of course, we do realize that Microsoft lowered the price of all models approx $50 across the board as well while Sony just did it on the remaining inventory of 60gb versions, their 80gb is still $600 and will most likely stay the same when 60gb sells out if it sells out at all.

Agreed but how many HDTV's are expected to sell this Holiday season and also how many households is 15% as that number also hurts the thought of how many people will buy a HD DVD or a Blur Ray player!

The number of households will be at 36% by 12/31. But USA Households (like practically everyone) have more than 1 TV. And as the demographic for video game consoles is lower than HDTV owners due to disposable income - many will be purchased by people who still live at home. the parents may have an HDTV in the LR but the "kid(s)" will have their own TV's and most will not be HDTV's.

The forecasted sale of HDTV's for 2007 is 16 million. They had reached 7 million by 6/30 so they (CEA) said they were right on target as the last month of the year will produce the highest sales.

Last year they sold 13 million. Since 1999 when HDTV became available - they have sold over 40 million as of 6/30/07 (26" and larger)

And approx. 6 million people are actually watching HD on their HDTV. According to the latest NPG analysis.

Small market you will have to agree. That is the problem facing HDM this Q4.

Certainly, but unlike new Playstation customer who actually get butchered console when compared to the original 60gb version, these new Xbox's based on Falcon core (65nm one) also have HDMI and there's word that even core, going for $279, will now have wireless controllers and HDMI.

Add bundles and included games and the value of these Xboxs goes down even further. Of course, we do realize that Microsoft lowered the price of all models approx $50 across the board as well while Sony just did it on the remaining inventory of 60gb versions, their 80gb is still $600 and will most likely stay the same when 60gb sells out if it sells out at all.

Actually word is if new sku comes out at 399, 80 gb will drop to 499 word is in Canada this weekend 80gb will be on sale for 549. And only the Halo edition has shown up with the 65nm chips my brother on his 4th 360.. no lie he got a hdmi premium it broke messed upa disk he got another new one brand new today and it was manufactured on 16th of august and is non hdmi which I thought was funny.

Did anyone like my video? :D

I thought it was pretty funny. It's weird to put them there, since they are just going to get kicked by people who aren't thinking about it.

As for the topic...

I think Blu-Ray knows there will be issues with profile 1.1 and BD+, and that is why we will not see them unitl after the holiday buying season. If a player came out now and had issues it might hurt sales.

What will be even worse is when a 1.1 or BD+ disc comes out and some of the profile 1.0 players can not play it. You know the media will jump all over that.

Personally, I think BD Live and Interent connectivity is where it is at. No more silly out dated extras and trailers. You can have most of the extras be on-line and dynamic. Current trailers, updated commentary, access to all kinds of things. Everytime you watch a movie something on the discs might be new or updated. It could give you access to social networking sites. It could allow you access to forums about the film (you like forums that why you are here!). I could go on and on, but I will let ther studios do that.

Too, bad BD live won't be available for a long time...and if you have a 1.0 or 1.1 stand-alone then never.

My question is, what does WB think of this? We all know WB issued a statement saying they are watching Q4. But did they really say all they are watching are the sales? BD fans would have you think after Q4, WB would say "2-1 2-1 2-1, we go BD exclusive" I have a feeling many in WB are keeping a close eye on the profile stuff, since WB seems to be anal about interactive stuff, and extras.

So if the BDA cant get the profile act together, how will WB respond?

My question is, what does WB think of this? We all know WB issued a statement saying they are watching Q4. But did they really say all they are watching are the sales? BD fans would have you think after Q4, WB would say "2-1 2-1 2-1, we go BD exclusive" I have a feeling many in WB are keeping a close eye on the profile stuff, since WB seems to be anal about interactive stuff, and extras.

So if the BDA cant get the profile act together, how will WB respond?

The same way they are responding now? Not release a BD title until the 1.1 and 2.0 issues are fixed.

Still 20 WB titles that are exclusive to HD DVD though not sure if all have IME/IF.

They can if they want - release a movie only version then double dip the BD owners once the profile issues have been fixed and there are players in the wild.

Problem is - when is this going to happen? With the delay of the Sam. 5000 DF to December - it looks like this may be the first 1.1 compliant player. IF it actually shows up.

If there is an issue, as a consumer its not affecting me, so why should I care? You're acting like people cant buy movies because there aren't enough discs to go around which is definitely not the case.

The only reason it doesn't matter to you is that someone else is footing the bill. How long do you think they are going to do that for?

To put this in perspective, I was at Best Buy tonight returning a receiver and I saw dozens and dozens of the PS3s stacked up all over the store. They have far too many, much more than they can sell, and do not know where to put them. They are even piled up all around the customer service counters because they have no where else to put them.

Here is a video I took - http://www.campaignhd.com/images/MOV-0029.3gp


You should totally upload that to youtube (assuming it'll convert the 3gp itself?) :D

Can't watch this from work here, no player for it, but flash (youtube) works... I haven't seen it yet :P

WTF is a 3gp file? Some kinda phone video? It's called .mpg or .avi or .wmv etc., don't make me do the work...

Certainly, but unlike new Playstation customer who actually get butchered console when compared to the original 60gb version...

Hyperbole much?

WTF is a 3gp file? Some kinda phone video? It's called .mpg or .avi or .wmv etc., don't make me do the work...Try this faq (http://www.gromkov.com/faq/faq2004-0067.html). Mine opened in Qucktime (using Firefox); but it seemed to converting it automatically, either from a plug-in or some other way; as I never set it up to do this.

Maybe BB is just running out of floor space period. When I bought my PS3 (from CC) they didn't have any out where you cold see the boxes and brought it out from behind the pickup counter.

Did anyone like my video? :D

Now that I'm home I've seen it, heh, I like how NOBODY is even really paying an attention to the excessive display of available PS3s, they're just there, like part of the background.

Brings to mind a certain penny arcade comic:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/10

I used VideoLAN (VLC) to play it (cause I hate quicktime player, and didn't want to find out how mediaplayer classic would handle it)

WTF is a 3gp file? Some kinda phone video? It's called .mpg or .avi or .wmv etc., don't make me do the work...
It's a video from my Samsung Blackjack - I think it's MPEG4 :)

Now that I'm home I've seen it, heh, I like how NOBODY is even really paying an attention to the excessive display of available PS3s, they're just there, like part of the background.

Brings to mind a certain penny arcade comic:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/10
Man! That could've been over $100,000 Tretton would've owed us! :p

I see this as no problem for Blu Ray.....Things are moving as they should in introducing a new player......slowly. There is lots of time.. and as HDDVD races to the $99 player and making no money...no one is noticing.

Comments like these make me laugh. So Blu-ray should be slow in introducing specs that HD DVD has had since April 2006, while HD DVD continues to sell more stand alones and offer a price that is half of what Blu-ray players are. Apparently the only ones noticing are all the new HD DVD owners and Paramount and Dreamworks.

Comments like these make me laugh. So Blu-ray should be slow in introducing specs that HD DVD has had since April 2006, while HD DVD continues to sell more stand alones and offer a price that is half of what Blu-ray players are. Apparently the only ones noticing are all the new HD DVD owners and Paramount and Dreamworks.


So your players are half the price, but you sell half the discs?:eek:

And you may want to check the sales figures on players again.

Very interesting point. The whole way that the BDA has "managed" their format has been a total and utter train wreck. :) It's pretty clear that they were forced to release their players in an unfinished form because HD DVD was ready last year. I really think such tactics will come back to haunt them. It is also representative of the way the PS3 has been managed as well, especially considering the "home" functionality. Nothing seems to have been thought out very well, and those things that have been released seemed to be rushed out to allow them to make announcements, but ultimately fail to meet expectations.

I know that most BD proponents will argue that "it's about the movies..." and perhaps they have even convinced themselves of the fact because some of them have spent upwards of $1000 for a 1.0 player, but I know I wouldn't be happy with the situation if I had a stand-alone BD player... and I believe such would be true for most people who care about their money, and aren't drinking the blu-ray koolaid. :)

Agreed, well said.

I've said from day one this was trouble with a capital T. Apparently few editorials agree because they either fail to mention it, or mention it without giving a clue as to what it means. Though it's been a little more visible since CEDIA didn't announce a flurry of 1.1 players, and the set compliance date is now so close you can taste it.

However as usual, I just saw a banner BD add from Sony that misleadingly talked about BD as if it was the format offering the most advanced features.

Just more fabricating on Sony's part, they are known for making huge promises they cannot fulfill.

Speaking of the PS3 - Sony's BIGGEST problem with rolling out a cheaper SKU of the PS3 is the millions of regular PS3's still sitting rotting in distribution channels and choking up store and warehouse space.

If Sony does a small run (as is expected) of these cheaper PS3's to use as "bait", there will still be masses of the more expensive unit in distribution that are still not sold. I'm sure retailers will be REALLY happy and excited when they hear about the cheaper ones popping up online and elsewhere while they are stuck with masses of the more expensive version.

To put this in perspective, I was at Best Buy tonight returning a receiver and I saw dozens and dozens of the PS3s stacked up all over the store. They have far too many, much more than they can sell, and do not know where to put them. They are even piled up all around the customer service counters because they have no where else to put them.

Here is a video I took - http://www.campaignhd.com/images/MOV-0029.3gp

Same here, in NYC at Best Buy and Sony Style on Madison, PS3 is bountiful. They can't give the systems away, whereas Wii is selling out everywhere. I did purchase a PS3 and well having second thoughts. It's just a BD player because no good games, most have defected to Wii or 360 at this point.

how many players are there in the display? what is he name of the retailer? x that to the retail chain that they have in USA, we can roughly guess how many PS3 are staying in retail shelves. If that continues, Sony computer intertainment might announce further retrenchment ;) and their china suplier may have to be forced to lay off staffs too ;)

Very interesting point. The whole way that the BDA has "managed" their format has been a total and utter train wreck. :) It's pretty clear that they were forced to release their players in an unfinished form because HD DVD was ready last year.


I think there is little doubt about that being true. The SoC for the final profile wasn't ready, but they had to go to market.

Hmmm. We managed to ship a product based on the same specs a year after we presented them to BDA. Are you saying that BDA turned down our proposal for something that was not nearly as finished and ready to be taken to market?


I don't understand. Why did they not take the same approach as Toshiba Gen 1 players with more flexible architecture? I mean it is not like they were hurting on BOM (Material) cost with >$1,000 price tag on players. Did they make a mistake in your opinion on creating profiles instead of making the player more powerful to start?

How is "Microsoft having presented a proposal to the BDA", especially when they weren't even a BDA member, relevant to when the spec was completed?
It's less of a problem for a single company (Toshiba) to jump through hoops with regards to player design than it is for the multiple companies building independent Blu-ray designs. I don't think they'd have been willing to spec anything which couldn't reasonably be built with an SoC.
I think the profile approach is better than the alternative of simply waiting an extra 12-18 months to release the first players, but I'd obviously have preferred that players implementing the final specifications were ready in time for format launch.