The day has come: we're referencing a site that references an AVS thread as source for a rumor. ;)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=922556

Problem is: this isnt a rumor. I gave the WM item numbers so ANYONE can verify.:p

Problem is: this isnt a rumor. I gave the WM item numbers so ANYONE can verify.:p

No problem IMO: as long as it's not actually for sale, it remains a rumor based on an SKU in a database. A series of 0s and 1s.

No problem IMO: as long as it's not actually for sale, it remains a rumor based on an SKU in a database. A series of 0s and 1s.

Call your store, ask them to run the number in the SMART system. My store has 14 units on the way.

Call your store, ask them to run the number in the SMART system. My store has 14 units on the way.

So is it for sale or is it not for sale?

A little more on Death Proof.

http://www.areadvd.de/index2.html

I haven't heard anything that say Weinstein was going BD solo on anything, anyone implying this?


Didnt mean to sound like it was released by any of them. Just responding to Nakedeye who said I was silly for not buying the HD-DVD.

Rumor: Toshiba is working with Microsoft on new entertainment Xbox, with built-in HD DVD drive, a large hard drive, dual HD TV tuner and EPG capability, a docking port for an MP3 player, and new entertainment software. Also quieter, cooler, and more reliable. Also an open chassis design to slot in your TV.

Source: Toshiba insiders, as quoted by smarthouse.com.au

Link: Here (http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Console/P4G5C3U2?page=1)

Time frame til confirmation: One year?

Certainty level of confirmation[scale 1-10]: 9

I don't like to start rumors but...think about this...first we have the Cell deal between Tosh and Sony and now the Rumor about a new XBOX platform with internal HD DVD drive and new software...hmmm

Rumor: Toshiba is working with Microsoft on new entertainment Xbox, with built-in HD DVD drive, a large hard drive, dual HD TV tuner and EPG capability, a docking port for an MP3 player, and new entertainment software. Also quieter, cooler, and more reliable. Also an open chassis design to slot in your TV.

Now they just need to add cablecard support and they will have a nice product.

Is it announced for HD-DVD???

If it was would you buy it?

My point was that if it's on BD, It'll be on HD DVD. Even if it's not on BD, It may be on HD DVD.

Now they just need to add cablecard support and they will have a nice product.

Why? Cablecards are a miserable failure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD).

This right here is what we call a "moment of clarity":

Here's what I don't understand. If disk capacity is really that important to the HD formats then why wouldn't everyone interested in the optical HD formats celebrate if the TL51 disks work on all HD DVD players. Is this not an improvement for HD in general? I suspect people here, whether HD DVD fans or BD fans don't want to see any improvement in the opposing format, even if it betters HD in general. The fact is is that SL HD DVD can look great (Firewall is a good example) and SL BD can look great. This is all about boasting rights for PR purposes only - my dad is bigger than your dad. There are people here who won't buy into HD DVD until the TL51 is a confirmed reality, yet buy SL BD disks. WTF!!!

Cheers,

Grant


cheers yerself,
max

From an avid BR disc supporter:
"The 51gb would be a great achievement if it is universally compatible with all early hd dvd players"

You can qoute me.

I'm just not so sure why we have had to endure the endless arguments that the space is more than enough on hd30 and we dont need more. Then we see a huge effort to equal the space.Behold the tl51 and its greatness.

Kind of makes me think that a lot of the hd support doesnt actually believe it's own rhetoric.
That's my moment of clarity.

I'm just not so sure why we have had to endure the endless arguments that the space is more than enough on hd30 and we dont need more. Then we see a huge effort to equal the space.Behold the tl51 and its greatness.

You could surely guess this thing has come down to a pissing contest. I don't think the 51 is needed as anything but to deflate a talking-point from the competition. Now the 51-twin may be a whole different matter.

My pleasure at it's coming is totally derived from it putting an end to the argument more than I care if I ever own one of them.

You could surely guess this thing has come down to a pissing contest. I don't think the 51 is needed as anything but to deflate a talking-point from the competition. Now the 51-twin may be a whole different matter.

My pleasure at it's coming is totally derived from it putting an end to the argument more than I care if I ever own one of them.

Wow, wow.

They put all this money developing, testing and manufacturing these discs to squash a talking point? Like anyone but avs'ers or insiders look at discs on the shelves and go "hmm, only a bd25" or an "uggh only an hd 15"

And you're saying this to someone who's never really been totally on board that 30gbs is not enough space.I've only commented that people seem to be making use of it and like making use of the 50gb.

If anything this confirms that the space is very desireable.

Once we see these start hitting the shelves you will see a reversal of sorts and see the tl51 touted as a big leap forward by those who have been gushing over the bd50 as being unecessary.

A little more on Death Proof.

http://www.areadvd.de/index2.html

I sure hope there's gonna be more than just a trailer for the bonus features.:eek:

A little more on Death Proof.

http://www.areadvd.de/index2.html

It's interesting to me that either of the Grindhouse movies would make it to HDM.

They intentionally beat the crap out of that movie!
Made it to look like a grainy,scratched,patched print that's been shown a thousand times. The audio sounds like a chewed up 8 track.If it looked too good it would defeat the director's vision.

I said the same thing about 28 days later.Which was shot on sd mini dv.
On these type of flicks, dvd is more than adequate.

Xbox 360 to get built-in HD DVD drive in late 2008?
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/19/360-to-get-built-in-hd-dvd-drive-in-late-2008/

This certainly isn't the first time we've heard this rumor, but SmartHouse is reporting that Microsoft and Toshiba are working on an updated Xbox 360 with a built-in HD DVD drive. If that were all, we wouldn't bat an eye -- it's gotta happen sometime -- but there are some other, crazier aspects to this version of the rumor that set off some red flags: SmartHouse also claims that the new box will be Toshiba-branded and have dual HDTV tuners, electronic program guide capabilities, built-in wireless networking, and sport an "MP3 player" dock, which we'd imagine would be for a Zune. That's a hell of a box, right there, and while we've seen similar devices like Sony's PSX, they didn't exactly take the world by storm. Our money is still on a simple bump of the existing 360 to HD DVD, but get ready to hear a lot of about this rumor in the weeks to come.

Once we see these start hitting the shelves you will see a reversal of sorts and see the tl51 touted as a big leap forward by those who have been gushing over the bd50 as being unecessary.
Nope. Just another dead BDA talking point. We've already seen a few.

From an avid BR disc supporter:
"The 51gb would be a great achievement if it is universally compatible with all early hd dvd players"

You can qoute me.

I'm just not so sure why we have had to endure the endless arguments that the space is more than enough on hd30 and we dont need more. Then we see a huge effort to equal the space.Behold the tl51 and its greatness.

Kind of makes me think that a lot of the hd support doesnt actually believe it's own rhetoric.
That's my moment of clarity.

I think it is more of an effort to woo a certain studio who publicly proclaimed that one of the reasons they were with BD was because of the space that BD afforded them. Take away that edge and add in the edge of interactive features that work and you may have a studio change its stance.

I think it is more of an effort to woo a certain studio who publicly proclaimed that one of the reasons they were with BD was because of the space that BD afforded them. Take away that edge and add in the edge of interactive features that work and you may have a studio change its stance.

And that studio voted yes at the 9/12 DVD Forum Steering Committee meeting held 9/12.

They voted yes for both the TL51 and the TL Twin. The other BDA SC members abstained from voting on those two agenda items. (See my thread on details of this meeting and how the SC members voted on 8 agenda items)

Hmmmmmmmmm

:D

And that studio voted yes at the 9/12 DVD Forum Steering Committee meeting held 9/12.

They voted yes for both the TL51 and the TL Twin. The other BDA SC members abstained from voting on those two agenda items. (See my thread on details of this meeting and how the SC members voted on 8 agenda items)

Hmmmmmmmmm

:D
the seven dwarfs ! its them who voted 'yes' :D :D

the seven dwarfs ! its them to voted 'yes' :D :D

Pssssssst . . should we start a new rumor on the rumor thread? Offer the minutes of the meeting and resolutions approved as proof and links?

:D:D:D

Pssssssst . . should we start a new rumor on the rumor thread? Offer the minutes of the meeting and resolutions approved as proof and links?

:D:D:D

please do and hype how Cars and Pirates will do better on HD DVD and sell plenty of players what Transformers is currently doing :D

Xbox 360 to get built-in HD DVD drive in late 2008?
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/19/360-to-get-built-in-hd-dvd-drive-in-late-2008/

This certainly isn't the first time we've heard this rumor, but SmartHouse is reporting that Microsoft and Toshiba are working on an updated Xbox 360 with a built-in HD DVD drive. If that were all, we wouldn't bat an eye -- it's gotta happen sometime -- but there are some other, crazier aspects to this version of the rumor that set off some red flags: SmartHouse also claims that the new box will be Toshiba-branded and have dual HDTV tuners, electronic program guide capabilities, built-in wireless networking, and sport an "MP3 player" dock, which we'd imagine would be for a Zune. That's a hell of a box, right there, and while we've seen similar devices like Sony's PSX, they didn't exactly take the world by storm. Our money is still on a simple bump of the existing 360 to HD DVD, but get ready to hear a lot of about this rumor in the weeks to come.

Yep, this rumor is trying to grow legs.
But it does look like M$ will be bundling HD DVD with the Xbox 360 this November. Well according to another rumor.
Xbox 360 HD-DVD bundle to undercut PS3 in Europe, according to uh-oh ... "retail sources" (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/08/xbox-360-hd-dvd-bundle-to-undercut-ps3-in-europe-according-to-u/)
(sorry I missed the date on this story and it's a much older, although I think much more likely way for M$ to include HD DVD)

Toshiba + Microsoft = New HD-DVD Xbox to fight Apple TV? (http://crunchgear.com/2007/10/19/toshiba-microsoft-new-hd-dvd-xbox-to-fight-apple-tv/)
According to leakers at Toshiba, Microsoft is planning a new Xbox 360 that will include integrated HD-DVD playback at 1080p, and will also include upgraded wireless capabilities and a larger internal hard drive. We’re filing this one under “well no duh”, as those improvements all make total sense. What’s also interesting is that Toshiba’s bigmouth is stating it will include an HDTV tuner and an MP3 player docking station, likely one that works with the docking port on the bottom of the Zune.

Whoa, if we get Warner exclusively and get Disney to go neutral...yikes. That just won't be good for Blu. Man oh man. I think it would most definitely be time to play Taps.

I think it is more of an effort to woo a certain studio who publicly proclaimed that one of the reasons they were with BD was because of the space that BD afforded them. Take away that edge and add in the edge of interactive features that work and you may have a studio change its stance.

That is at least more believable.
Kinda doubt it, but plausable speculation.

Wow, wow.

They put all this money developing, testing and manufacturing these discs to squash a talking point? Like anyone but avs'ers or insiders look at discs on the shelves and go "hmm, only a bd25" or an "uggh only an hd 15"

And you're saying this to someone who's never really been totally on board that 30gbs is not enough space.I've only commented that people seem to be making use of it and like making use of the 50gb.

If anything this confirms that the space is very desireable.

Once we see these start hitting the shelves you will see a reversal of sorts and see the tl51 touted as a big leap forward by those who have been gushing over the bd50 as being unecessary.

I could say the same about Blu-Ray and Profile 1.1 and 2.0 features. It's going to be amazing when it comes out. Imagine a format that lets you do PiP and lets you connect to online resources! People will be dancing in the streets for this major leap in technology.

That is at least more believable.
Kinda doubt it, but plausible speculation.

If I read the vote breakdowns correctly for the DVD Forum meeting on 9/12, Disney voted yes for both TL Twin and the TL51. That, to me, adds to the speculation some, as they were the only BDA member to not abstain from all votes concerning HD DVD

From an avid BR disc supporter:
"The 51gb would be a great achievement if it is universally compatible with all early hd dvd players"

You can qoute me.

I'm just not so sure why we have had to endure the endless arguments that the space is more than enough on hd30 and we dont need more. Then we see a huge effort to equal the space.Behold the tl51 and its greatness.

Kind of makes me think that a lot of the hd support doesnt actually believe it's own rhetoric.
That's my moment of clarity.

I don't need a car that can go 0-60 in less then 4 seconds and be the sexiest car on the road to drive to work. But if I could get it at a lower price point I would still be happy to get it and brag about how fast it is.

The HD DVD doesn't need 51gigs to have just as nice a picture as blue ray...but if 51gigs brings other benifits..then be happy about the extra space.

Yes I would love to see Warner go HD exclusive as they should have a month ago, but when they are releasing T3 with the IME on bluray I am a bit skeptical.

I could say the same about Blu-Ray and Profile 1.1 and 2.0 features. It's going to be amazing when it comes out. Imagine a format that lets you do PiP and lets you connect to online resources! People will be dancing in the streets for this major leap in technology.

Imagine all that without the added step of boiling your discs.:rolleyes:

Imagine all that without the added step of boiling your discs.:rolleyes:
Are you still complaining about combos? another "issue" blown way out of proportion...

From an avid BR disc supporter:
"The 51gb would be a great achievement if it is universally compatible with all early hd dvd players"

You can qoute me.

I'm just not so sure why we have had to endure the endless arguments that the space is more than enough on hd30 and we dont need more. Then we see a huge effort to equal the space.Behold the tl51 and its greatness.

Kind of makes me think that a lot of the hd support doesnt actually believe it's own rhetoric.
That's my moment of clarity.

Why is this a great achievement? It would only be a 'great' achievement if the current 30gb was seriously affecting PQ/AQ/extras. Isn't the company line from HDDVD that 30gb is more than 'enough'? Does Kris Deering have to start another thread on the fact that higher bitrate encodes won't necessarily increase PQ?:p

Of course if you admitted that 30gb is seriously limiting the format then yes, TL51 would be quite an accomplishment as it adds an extra ~60% more storage.

Imagine all that without the added step of boiling your discs.:rolleyes:Why does the discourse in this thread degrade so quickly?

Why is this a great achievement? It would only be a 'great' achievement if the current 30gb was seriously affecting PQ/AQ/extras. Isn't the company line from HDDVD that 30gb is more than 'enough'? Does Kris Deering have to start another thread on the fact that higher bitrate encodes won't necessarily increase PQ?:p

Of course if you admitted that 30gb is seriously limiting the format then yes, TL51 would be quite an accomplishment as it adds an extra ~60% more storage.

I think it's great they got a triple layer to work.
I think its great to have more space, more options regardless what its used for.Extras in HD,Lossless Audio Tracks or for the tweakheads...higher quality encodes... whatever you want. Options are always better than limitations.
The tl51 makes for a good day in hd land.No doubt about it.

I'm willing to do a little give and take.It is unfortunate they (BDA)didnt have 1.1 and 2.0 ready out of the gate.Some would argue that its better they didnt rush it.Either way it is a negative.Its late to the game.

But what we have glaring at us the hd camp has shot itself in the foot dismissing the blu ray 50 and then turning around and putting out the tl51.
Defending the 30gb to the death doesnt leave you much room to tout the tl51
does it? Look how carefully its danced around. Did you read the sports car analogy? lol. Better stay clever to tackle this one.

Then we have them copying the sony playbook scrambling to integrate a built in hd dvd drive into the 360. Even though now they wouldnt be able to take advantage of its storage for games.

BD has had some hurdles.The high prices and profiles have been negative strikes.

HD DVD has made some blunders too obviously and they are trying very hard to play catch up. But good luck getting any hd dvd advocates to admit a single solitary negative. Everything has negatives.

Hypocrisy abounds.

Yes I would love to see Warner go HD exclusive as they should have a month ago, but when they are releasing T3 with the IME on bluray I am a bit skeptical.

Paramount had copies of BoG on BD printed when they went exclusive.

Not hinting at anything , just stating an observation.

Yep, this rumor is trying to grow legs.
But it does look like M$ will be bundling HD DVD with the Xbox 360 this November. Well according to another rumor.
Xbox 360 HD-DVD bundle to undercut PS3 in Europe, according to uh-oh ... "retail sources" (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/08/xbox-360-hd-dvd-bundle-to-undercut-ps3-in-europe-according-to-u/)
(sorry I missed the date on this story and it's a much older, although I think much more likely way for M$ to include HD DVD)

And if they call it the "Xbox 360 Cinema Edition", I am writing a nasty letter to Microsoft for stealing my idea!!! :)

Let's keep THIS thread to rumors and, perhaps, a quick comment or two about the rumor. Don't want it getting off topic and off track. Thanks.

^^^

Anyone know when the next Disney Sharholders Meeting is? Curious if the subject of exclusivity will come up. It did in the last meeting.

But what we have glaring at us the hd camp has shot itself in the foot dismissing the blu ray 50 and then turning around and putting out the tl51.
Defending the 30gb to the death doesnt leave you much room to tout the tl51
does it? Look how carefully its danced around. Did you read the sports car analogy? lol. Better stay clever to tackle this one.

I'm an HD supporter, but I didn't create the 51 myself, so why should I feel ashamed if it comes to pass? It works two ways, if a BD supporter won't buy HD DVD once all the barriers they protested about are removed, what does that say about the validity of those concerns? It vindicates that the 51 wasn't needed if it's not embraced by HD DVD critics under the "see I told ya so" clause.

At any rate I hope you'll be just as critical of BD proponents who sing the praises of PIP and interactivity once they jump from the drawing-board to the store shelves.

Anyone know when the next Disney Sharholders Meeting is? Curious if the subject of exclusivity will come up. It did in the last meeting.

Hehe...you think Disney REALLy wants that last 29% of the HDM market THAT badly? hehehe.

Frankly, the numbers are looking pretty grim for HDDVD. For all the cheap SA players they are touting, we haven't seen any movement in terms of software sales. Now with the $399 PS3 entering the mix, I would think that Universal going multi-format would be more likely.

I'm an HD supporter, but I didn't create the 51 myself, so why should I feel ashamed if it comes to pass? It works two ways, if a BD supporter won't buy HD DVD once all the barriers they protested about are removed, what does that say about the validity of those concerns? It vindicates that the 51 wasn't needed if it's not embraced by HD DVD critics under the "see I told ya so" clause.

At any rate I hope you'll be just as critical of BD proponents who sing the praises of PIP and interactivity once they jump from the drawing-board to the store shelves.

I would.

Only differnce I could see is those things (Prolile issues)were already in the plans.They just drug their heels about getting them off the ground.That, I am upset about.

But tl51 was never in the cards until bd50.

Actually Disney would be looking at 34% of the market which has a 50% better margin on avg. So yes. They would potentially sell fewer units, but make more money with HD DVD. Last I checked, money was the more important driving factor....

Actually Disney would be looking at 34% of the market which has a 50% better margin on avg.

Source for a 50% better margin? And I hope you aren't talking about replication costs, which have already been repeatedly confirmed as miniscule and dropping by dual-format publishers.

Actually Disney would be looking at 34% of the market which has a 50% better margin on avg. So yes. They would potentially sell fewer units, but make more money with HD DVD. Last I checked, money was the more important driving factor....

50% better margin? What kind of funny math is this?

Basically all the BD players are outselling all the HDDVD players for software sales at a 65-35 rate since the start of the year. Calculate that any way you want, but basically any title that gets released on BD will sell TWICE as many as HDDVD.

So if 'money was the more important driving factor', then Universal would basically be crazy if they kept supporting HDDVD exclusively since they could be adding to their HDM sales by 200% if they went neutral? And Paramount is completely out of their minds because they willingly gave up 66% of their HDM sales by going exclusive?

To me, overall HDM software sales are so minute for both sides that its still a small part of the equation. Assume for Transformers that Paramount makes a net proft of $15 bucks for each HDDVD sold. Even if they shatter the record held by 300 of 150,000 units, thats still only a profit of about $2.5 million. Whereas they pocketed a cool $150 million for basically sitting on their hands and going exclusive. You would need about 50 movies on par with 300/Transformers to make $150 million profit.

Trust me the next studio to shift their 'strategy' will have very little to do with sales and ALOT more to do with the 'payments' that go on behind the scenes.

50% better margin? What kind of funny math is this?

Basically all the BD players are outselling all the HDDVD players for software sales at a 65-35 rate since the start of the year. Calculate that any way you want, but basically any title that gets released on BD will sell TWICE as many as HDDVD.

So if 'money was the more important driving factor', then Universal would basically be crazy if they kept supporting HDDVD exclusively since they could be adding to their HDM sales by 200% if they went neutral? And Paramount is completely out of their minds because they willingly gave up 66% of their HDM sales by going exclusive?

To me, overall HDM software sales are so minute for both sides that its still a small part of the equation. Assume for Transformers that Paramount makes a net proft of $15 bucks for each HDDVD sold. Even if they shatter the record held by 300 of 150,000 units, thats still only a profit of about $2.5 million. Whereas they pocketed a cool $150 million for basically sitting on their hands and going exclusive. You would need about 50 movies on par with 300/Transformers to make $150 million profit.

Trust me the next studio to shift their 'strategy' will have very little to do with sales and ALOT more to do with the 'payments' that go on behind the scenes.

Ahhhhh . . . I don't trust you;)

Trust me.Sorry, no can do...:p

Why can't this thread be about rumors and discussion thereof? Why do posters insist on pushing their opinions, as if it's really going to change anything...

Wow, wow.

They put all this money developing, testing and manufacturing these discs to squash a talking point? Like anyone but avs'ers or insiders look at discs on the shelves and go "hmm, only a bd25" or an "uggh only an hd 15"

And you're saying this to someone who's never really been totally on board that 30gbs is not enough space.I've only commented that people seem to be making use of it and like making use of the 50gb.

If anything this confirms that the space is very desireable.

Once we see these start hitting the shelves you will see a reversal of sorts and see the tl51 touted as a big leap forward by those who have been gushing over the bd50 as being unecessary.

FWIW -- Triple layer HD DVD has been under development for well over two years, but was originally planned as 15GB per layer. Not clear what the specific reason was for upping it to 17GB per layer last winter, but mature production tolerances permitted it and that's probably a contributor. There is preliminary information to indicate it's actually easier to read 17GB layers than 15GB layers with a three layer structure, so perhaps that was also a factor in the decision. Whether political considerations were also involved is always possible, though not certain.

Also not yet certain is whether the TL discs will actually be used for releases, but studio indications thus far is that will be the exception, not the rule. As always -- time will tell :)!

Hehe...you think Disney REALLy wants that last 29% of the HDM market THAT badly? hehehe.

Hehe...yourself. Then you see 2% of the home video market as some sort of prize? They surely aren't happy with what a drop-in-the bucket HDM is period, I presume they are enjoying "incentives" in the short term, and hoping for a real market to develop in the long. I'd argue that 2% and 1% are both so absurdly tiny as to not promise anything for the future if circumstances remain as they are. The only thing Disney can do to change the market and earn more sales is go neutral, it's a much easier, cheaper step than bombarding BD with releases that they are holding back until HDM proves it's worth the bother.

If you sell HD DVD after not having sold it, it's more than likely that this move in and of itself will change the number of owners and buyers.

If all studios were neutral tomorrow, and all titles were released to take advantage of whatever stage of development both formats are at, what would it do to the market?

The thought process that bluray players outsell hddvd players are incredibly flawed, like the bluray data used at IFA that was based on player profits not sales. For stand alone players hddvd players are ahead and will remain so. You know last month the PS2 sold twice as many copies as the PS3. The Xbox 360 and Nintendo Wii each outsold the PS3 5 times over. Spare me the trojan horse routine!!! When the PS2 is outselling the PS3 it is obviously not working.

Hehe...yourself. Then you see 2% of the home video market as some sort of prize? They surely aren't happy with what a drop-in-the bucket HDM is period, I presume they are enjoying "incentives" in the short term, and hoping for a real market to develop in the long. I'd argue that 2% and 1% are both so absurdly tiny as to not promise anything for the future if circumstances remain as they are. The only thing Disney can do to change the market and earn more sales is go neutral, it's a much easier, cheaper step than bombarding BD with releases that they are holding back until HDM proves it's worth the bother.

If you sell HD DVD after not having sold it, it's more than likely that this move in and of itself will change the number of owners and buyers.

If all studios were neutral tomorrow, and all titles were released to take advantage of whatever stage of development both formats are at, what would it do to the market?

Well, you said it yourself, 2% is small potatoes. 1/3 of 2% is even smaller. Unless someone is chipping in $150 million, why would any studio change their current stance?

I think its more likely that a studio drops HDM altogether because of pathetic sales numbers. We're all spending out time worrying about the little battles between red and blue, when the whole of the HDM market is in a very dangerous position. What happens if HDM sales don't pick up significantly in Q4 and we still only see it at 2-3% of the whole market?

The thought process that bluray players outsell hddvd players are incredibly flawed, like the bluray data used at IFA that was based on player profits not sales. For stand alone players hddvd players are ahead and will remain so. You know last month the PS2 sold twice as many copies as the PS3. The Xbox 360 and Nintendo Wii each outsold the PS3 5 times over. Spare me the trojan horse routine!!! When the PS2 is outselling the PS3 it is obviously not working.

So movie studios should look at the NPD numbers for game consoles instead of looking at ACTUAL software sales now?

So movie studios should look at the NPD numbers for game consoles instead of looking at ACTUAL software sales now? To a degree, yes.

Hardware sales may be much more important at this stage than any software sales, as hardware sales increase the size of the installed base and lead to a lot of future software sales.

Software sales are still relatively small so they don't really matter as retailer support is immature and specific titles can dominate.

But NPD numbers of both consoles like the PS3, attachments like the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on accessory, and the sales of the set top standalone dedicated players, and their sales trends show the relative size of the installed bases.

If PS3 sales are significantly below Sony's statements and industry expectations, so will be software sales based on those promised PS3 hardware units.

The PS3 will eventually become less of a factor over time as set tops become more important to HDM sales.

Unless the attach rates for HDM media sales for the PS3 suddenly improve.

Any short term success the PS3 had in sustaining a 61:39 sales lead since inception in the low volumes of HDM sold to date may become just a history lesson from the immature start of these formats.

So movie studios should look at the NPD numbers for game consoles instead of looking at ACTUAL software sales now?

Well that depends. Is the PS3 being taken seriously as a Blu-ray player or not? I wish everyone would settle this question once and for all.

When we're talking about attach rates and why a 2:1 sales lead is not good considering the amount of supposed Blu-ray players vs. HD DVD players, somehow the PS3 isn't really taken into consideration. But let someone remind us that HD DVD standalone sales outperform Blu-ray standalone players, and someone else jumps in with "Well, you're not counting all the PS3's out there." The PS3 has become a point of convienance here.

Software sales are a piece of the puzzle, but not the end of it. Standalone sales tend to begin to equal software sales. Perhaps not right away, but as Blu-ray did after 2006, it chips away at the other side's number.

Considering all the free movie deals and such, it's a slight possibility that Toshiba could have sold more HD DVD standalone players in September than Sony sold PS3's. If that were to be the case, that would NOT be a good sign.

i think you have to consider that a percent of Blu-Ray stand alone players are not being bought because people opted for a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player.

Now not everyone who has bought a PS3 for Blu-Ray only would get a more expensive player but many would. If you remove the PS3 from the equation you have to add some of those numbers back to the stand alone players as some would have bought one if the PS3 was not cheaper and a very good Blu-Ray player itself.

Well that depends. Is the PS3 being taken seriously as a Blu-ray player or not? I wish everyone would settle this question once and for all.

When we're talking about attach rates and why a 2:1 sales lead is not good considering the amount of supposed Blu-ray players vs. HD DVD players, somehow the PS3 isn't really taken into consideration. But let someone remind us that HD DVD standalone sales outperform Blu-ray standalone players, and someone else jumps in with "Well, you're not counting all the PS3's out there." The PS3 has become a point of convienance here.

Software sales are a piece of the puzzle, but not the end of it. Standalone sales tend to begin to equal software sales. Perhaps not right away, but as Blu-ray did after 2006, it chips away at the other side's number.

Considering all the free movie deals and such, it's a slight possibility that Toshiba could have sold more HD DVD standalone players in September than Sony sold PS3's. If that were to be the case, that would NOT be a good sign.

Yeah I am sure Tosh sold more players in a month than 3/4's of the year? I don't think Tosh is even selling 30k of these things a month as they continue to downgrade they're own forecasts as far as yearly is concerned.

I think its more likely that a studio drops HDM altogether because of pathetic sales numbers. We're all spending out time worrying about the little battles between red and blue, when the whole of the HDM market is in a very dangerous position. What happens if HDM sales don't pick up significantly in Q4 and we still only see it at 2-3% of the whole market?

It's my hope that they'd rock-the boat before they'd throw-in-the-towel. They gotta know that the mess were in lies on their shoulders, not ours.

Yeah I am sure Tosh sold more players in a month than 3/4's of the year? I don't think Tosh is even selling 30k of these things a month as they continue to downgrade they're own forecasts as far as yearly is concerned. In a 7 week period they sold 70,000 players back in May/June.

30,000 units a month is hopelessly pessimistic.

Best guess is 212,000 plus HD DVD set tops players have been reported sold by NPD.

But we will know soon.

Actually Disney would be looking at 34% of the market which has a 50% better margin on avg. So yes. They would potentially sell fewer units, but make more money with HD DVD. Last I checked, money was the more important driving factor....I agree with you plazman, god knows I do.

But with Disney, it's a little bit more than profits. I think there's a bit of ego wrapped up in their BD choice right now. I hope I'm wrong, but they may be more likely to sink a few million $$ deeper into it, than go neutral and admit they weren't right. I hoipe I'm wrong, tho.

In the mean time, they are hedging their bets in the DVD Forum, IMO.

Wow, wow. They put all this money developing, testing and manufacturing these discs to squash a talking point?Nope... just to eliminate one of the only remaining BD advantages. Seems fair to me... :)

Nope... just to eliminate one of the only remaining BD advantages. Seems fair to me... :)

+1 ;)

They put all this money developing, testing and manufacturing these discs to squash a talking point?

First, do you have any info you'd like to share on how much was spent developing, testing, and manufacturing these discs? My guess is less than what Sony has lost using the PS3 as a trojan horse.

Second, how much value do you assign to squashing a talking point? I would call that a PR move, and PR isn't free. Both camps are spending money on it. Eliminating BD's biggest talking point would be priceless, even if they never used more than 30GB on a 51GB disc.

Finally, given that Disney voted to approve TL51 and TL Twin at the last DVD Forum meeting, instead of abstaining, it would seem that there is a possibility of doing more than just squashing a talking point. Either Disney has an interest in going neutral upon the availability of TL, or they want BDA to THINK they're going neutral in order to leverage more, er, incentives to remain exclusive. Either option is bad news for BDA, and therefore good news for HD DVD.

I agree with you plazman, god knows I do.

But with Disney, it's a little bit more than profits. I think there's a bit of ego wrapped up in their BD choice right now. I hope I'm wrong, but they may be more likely to sink a few million $$ deeper into it, than go neutral and admit they weren't right. I hoipe I'm wrong, tho.

In the mean time, they are hedging their bets in the DVD Forum, IMO.

Certainly ego is involved with the high players in a corporation. Unfortunately it does not equate to "good" business sense.

Considering all the free movie deals and such, it's a slight possibility that Toshiba could have sold more HD DVD standalone players in September than Sony sold PS3's. If that were to be the case, that would NOT be a good sign.

Ok, lets assume you are correct, and that HDDVD players are selling like hotcakes right now. But then, why aren't softwware increasing as well? Your point is that SA players have a much HIGHER attach rate than the PS3, and it is hypothetically selling more units than the PS3, is 1/2 as cheap as the PS3...........

and yet the BD software sales lead keeps increasing.

I won't argue with you on attach rates. SA players will definitely have higher attach rates than multifunction machines. However, the sheer numbers of the multifunction PS3 (even at their current craptacular sales levels) easily overwhelm the single function SA player.

Ok, lets assume you are correct, and that HDDVD players are selling like hotcakes right now. But then, why aren't softwware increasing as well? Your point is that SA players have a much HIGHER attach rate than the PS3, and it is hypothetically selling more units than the PS3, is 1/2 as cheap as the PS3...........

and yet the BD software sales lead keeps increasing.

I won't argue with you on attach rates. SA players will definitely have higher attach rates than multifunction machines. However, the sheer numbers of the multifunction PS3 (even at their current craptacular sales levels) easily overwhelm the single function SA player.

exactly, we still see 300 sales double on BD yet we are suppossed to believe that HD DVD players are suddenly quadrupling in sales monthly? I'm sorry but, no, not happening.......knocked up doesnt drop to those levels if the hardware is selling 100,000 in that month, not a chance in hell they would move NEARLY taht many players and not sell 5 digits worth of the biggest comedy blockbuster (exclusive at that) and less than half of BD's 300, and dont even BEGIN to try to argue that ONE player being packed with 300 is holding back its sales that much.

The BD software sales aren't increasing, percentage wise at least. Per Nielsen, they have actually been decreasing every so slightly (fraction of a percentage) each month since March (the YTD sales ratio has been decreasing). In the weeks since Paramount wen exclusive, HD DVD performance has increased even more. SO HD DVD is actually closing the YTD sales ratio gap, not falling further behind.

The trendline for BD is flat to down. The trendline of HD DVD is flat to up. The gains/losses are incredibly small, but they are there.

And software sales are increasing slowly because the PS3 is still selling over 100k units a month. If 20% are used as BD players, that's 20k per month BD hardware units + another 25k standalone units. If HD DVD sells 10k units per week, that's only 40k per month + another 5k per month or so for the Xbox addon.

HD DVD selling like hotcakes means they may only be selling 1-2k more effective units per month than BD, which means the reclaiming of ground will be very slow going for HD DVD.

I thought that this was the HDM rumor thread? Not the war thread or Nielsen thread?

HD-DVD still not target de "magic price point", when do it, sales turns exponential; 100k units HD-DVDs would be a minimum .

Finally, given that Disney voted to approve TL51 and TL Twin at the last DVD Forum meeting, instead of abstaining, it would seem that there is a possibility of doing more than just squashing a talking point. Either Disney has an interest in going neutral upon the availability of TL, or they want BDA to THINK they're going neutral in order to leverage more, er, incentives to remain exclusive. Either option is bad news for BDA, and therefore good news for HD DVD.

IIRC, Disney is one of the few BD supporters in the DVD Forum that actually doesn't abstain. Amir always talked positively about Disney and their participation in the DVD Forum on HD DVD matters (ie, support of HDi, and always voting postively for HD DVD features).

From CNBC this morning...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/21434647

There's also been a lot of talk about Microsoft taking the Xbox into the brave new world of "onboard" HD, by including an HD-DVD player inside new versions of the Xbox. Sources inside the company were telling me just yesterday (http://www.cnbc.com/id/21423304/site/14081545/?site=14081545) that an announcement could come as soon as the Consumer Electronics Show in January. Ken Birge, a spokesman for Microsoft, emailed me late yesterday with the company's official response: "Microsoft has no plans to integrate an HD DVD player into Xbox 360.

Offering the HD DVD player externally is the best way to give consumers the ultimate choice to create their own high definition experiences." I bounced that comment off the folks I originally spoke to and they're not buying it. Fine for now, one said, but watch what happens in the next few months. And so I will.

^^ You have to think it's in Microsoft's best interest to crush the rumor right now. Why distract customers and lose sales this holiday by allowing the public to think something new and better is coming out down the road?

Personally, I think by this time next year, the majority of Xbox 360’s sold will have internal HD DVD, with one core type SKU not offering it. I guess we’ll see.

^^ You have to think it's in Microsoft's best interest to crush the rumor right now. Why distract customers and lose sales this holiday by allowing the public to think something new and better is coming out down the road?

Personally, I think by this time next year, the majority of Xbox 360’s sold will have internal HD DVD, with one core type SKU not offering it. I guess we’ll see.

It ought to serve to deflate the age-old rumors that Microsoft has no interest in HD DVD and is simply biding their time til downloads.

^^ You have to think it's in Microsoft's best interest to crush the rumor right now. Why distract customers and lose sales this holiday by allowing the public to think something new and better is coming out down the road?

Personally, I think by this time next year, the majority of Xbox 360’s sold will have internal HD DVD, with one core type SKU not offering it. I guess we’ll see.

If the estimate of 20% of PS3 owners using it for Blu-Ray movies is valid, then there is no reason at all to expect HD DVD drive containing XBOX 360 will exceed that percentage. Just as the number of Add-on HD DVD drives sold is very low in comparison to the XBOX 360 user base -- there's every reason to expect a home media center XBOX (including HD DVD drive) to augment XBOX sales, extending its appeal into certain target markets, while having only a modest impact on current console sales.

"Microsoft has no plans to integrate an HD DVD player into Xbox 360.

If it is indeed badged as a Toshiba then his statement might be technically correct.

Friday, 06 July 2007 - Sony president Ryoji Chubachi has dismissed mounting speculation that the Japanese firm is planning to drop the price of its next generation gaming console. "At present we have no plans," [to cut the PS3 price], Ryoji Chubachi told Reuters in an interview.

That was a few days before the 1st $100 price cut. A few months later, a 2nd $100 price cut. – Sony, Microsoft, etc… these companies don’t play the rumor game, they will deny it until they are ready.

Friday, 06 July 2007 - Sony president Ryoji Chubachi has dismissed mounting speculation that the Japanese firm is planning to drop the price of its next generation gaming console. "At present we have no plans," [to cut the PS3 price], Ryoji Chubachi told Reuters in an interview.

That was a few days before the 1st $100 price cut. A few months later, a 2nd $100 price cut. – Sony, Microsoft, etc… these companies don’t play the rumor game, they will deny it until they are ready.

Glad to see that someone actually understands this. You're right, its totally stupid to say that a price cut is coming before it actually happens. Totally stupid.

Glad to see that someone actually understands this. You're right, its totally stupid to say that a price cut is coming before it actually happens. Totally stupid.

By saying there is a price cut coming, you effectively kill your sales until it happens. You guys are right. MS, Sony, etc. don't like rumors about price cuts.

http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/830000483/post/300016230.html

Rumors of an in-development Xbox 360 with a built-in HD DVD player heated up Tuesday, with another report by nationally known CNBC. The story asserts that Microsoft chief Bill Gates is planning to burst onto the CES 2008 scene in January with details about such a beefed-up 360.

But Microsoft HD DVD envangelist Kevin Collins pooh-poohed the idea to VB. The Xbox 360 has always been conceived as a hard core gaming device, with everything else being supplemental.

"There are no plans for an internal HD DVD drive, because we believe gamers are the primary audience for the Xbox 360," said Collins. "There are absolutely no plans to create an internal HD DVD drive. This is something that we have been talking about all along."

But Collins was not surprised by the line of questioning, explaining, "This seems to surface every six months."

People are right to be curious about how Microsoft, one of the biggest corporate forces worldwide, may try to influence the format war. HD DVD is trailing Blu-ray in hardware penetration, largely because of the sales dominance of the Blu-ray capable PS3.We shall see come January 8th or so...;)

Toshiba say ‘no’ to HD-DVD 360

http://www.xboxic.com/news/3854

Crud!!!

Toshiba say ‘no’ to HD-DVD 360

http://www.xboxic.com/news/3854


Can we just get the 2milllion Fuh Yuah players in the market already, or atleast get the Venturer players on some ones shelf in NA for 149.99 comon HD DVD.:mad:

Denying these kinds of things are meaningless. It could still be true. It makes little sense to announce such a console right now when it would cannibalize sales of current consoles.

Same logic applies to Sony denying price cuts.

I wonder if this happens will Universal go neutral?

EXCLUSIVE: DreamWorks & NBC Universal Break Bread In Very Public Forum (Wow!)

My spies tell me that Jeff Zucker and Ron Meyer had lunch in the Universal Studios commissary dreamworks_logo.giftoday with Steven Spielberg and Stacey Snider -- and everybody was all smiles. Talk about a virtual public announcement that a reunion between the studio and DreamWorks isn't far behind! "I can't imagine GE will blow it a second time. They made an extraordinary mistake," a source told me. Meanwhile, an agent analyzed, "I wonder if this is a negotiating ploy?" Look, we all know David Geffen still has to come to terms with GE chairman Jeff Immelt and his NBC Universal errand boy Jeff Zucker, so a deal isn't yet a foregone conclusion. But Uni prez/COO Ron Meyer can facilitate the DreamWorks sale since he's longtime pals with everyone involved (and Snider's ex-boss). nbcuni-logo.gifAnd we all know that Spielberg never left the Universal lot (even after DreamWorks' sale to Paramount), and it's the studio where the director has been happiest. He'd like nothing better than to call the place home again, and partner David is in the business of giving Steven what he wants. So stay tuned.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/exclusive-dreamworks-uni-break-bread/

I wonder if this happens will Universal go neutral?

EXCLUSIVE: DreamWorks & NBC Universal Break Bread In Very Public Forum (Wow!)

My spies tell me that Jeff Zucker and Ron Meyer had lunch in the Universal Studios commissary dreamworks_logo.giftoday with Steven Spielberg and Stacey Snider -- and everybody was all smiles. Talk about a virtual public announcement that a reunion between the studio and DreamWorks isn't far behind! "I can't imagine GE will blow it a second time. They made an extraordinary mistake," a source told me. Meanwhile, an agent analyzed, "I wonder if this is a negotiating ploy?" Look, we all know David Geffen still has to come to terms with GE chairman Jeff Immelt and his NBC Universal errand boy Jeff Zucker, so a deal isn't yet a foregone conclusion. But Uni prez/COO Ron Meyer can facilitate the DreamWorks sale since he's longtime pals with everyone involved (and Snider's ex-boss). nbcuni-logo.gifAnd we all know that Spielberg never left the Universal lot (even after DreamWorks' sale to Paramount), and it's the studio where the director has been happiest. He'd like nothing better than to call the place home again, and partner David is in the business of giving Steven what he wants. So stay tuned.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/exclusive-dreamworks-uni-break-bread/


Im wondering this myself. Given Spielberg "being a fan of bluray" and the clause that excludes his from films from being HD-DVD exclusive, Id say its a positive sign for bluray.

On the flip side its totally possible that Universal could have swayed Spielberg to the HD-DVD side. Hopefully we will know sooner rather than later.

No way they let ONE director decide a major path of business.

No Freaking Way.

Im wondering this myself. Given Spielberg "being a fan of bluray" and the clause that excludes his from films from being HD-DVD exclusive, Id say its a positive sign for bluray.

On the flip side its totally possible that Universal could have swayed Spielberg to the HD-DVD side. Hopefully we will know sooner rather than later.

Maybe they were talking about Geffen's hotel in the line of fire in So Cal...

No way they let ONE director decide a major path of business.

No Freaking Way.

Unless that director is Steven Spielberg whose films have grossed the company BILLIONS of dollars.

Im wondering this myself. Given Spielberg "being a fan of bluray" and the clause that excludes his from films from being HD-DVD exclusive, Id say its a positive sign for bluray.

On the flip side its totally possible that Universal could have swayed Spielberg to the HD-DVD side. Hopefully we will know sooner rather than later.

Here's something to consider. If you're Spielberg, and you're interested in cutting this deal, do you really care enough about the format war to make it a negotiating point?

I'd be surprised if he cared that much, but hey, let's see what happens.

Im wondering this myself. Given Spielberg "being a fan of bluray" and the clause that excludes his from films from being HD-DVD exclusive, Id say its a positive sign for bluray.

On the flip side its totally possible that Universal could have swayed Spielberg to the HD-DVD side. Hopefully we will know sooner rather than later.

Interesting story.
we don't know how big a fan of blu Spielberg really is. We never heard him say it in his own words. He could be fan of all HDM.
Does he get up thinking about it? I doubt it. When he had chance to say something about it, for Indiana Jones release he effectively took the middle road.
I think he is more concerned about future projects than past re-re-releases.

If he was happiest at Universal, he might be hankering to come home. But I don't think he'll be weighing HD or Blu in his decision. In the real grown up world there are far bigger concerns, he's got a lot of people who work for him and their families depending on him. I'd like to think he knows from experience that in the long term, 5-10 years from now the "format war" won't mater a hill of beans and there will alway be new format emerging from the primordial ooze. And it is not worth losing friends and connections over.

The movies is business where he knows he can make things happen, and he will be always looking to the future. It won't be worth his while to put himself and what he could accomplish on the line because of HD or Blu.

Fox lost the Indian Jones because of how they treated Lucas or was it Spielberg(?)
If Spielberg has been happy with Universal he might return to them, and it will be for a lot of other more important reason than Blu, if he really was gun-ho on blu he be talking to Sony.

that said, I've got my fingers crossed for Indian Jones 4. Lucas and Spielberg's recent work haven't been as good as their earlier stuff. IMHO

LOL found this picture at slashfilm.com, but it wasn't worth a new post
DreamWorks and Universal breaking bread
http://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/dreamworksuniversallastsupp.jpg

Here's something to consider. If you're Spielberg, and you're interested in cutting this deal, do you really care enough about the format war to make it a negotiating point?

I'd be surprised if he cared that much, but hey, let's see what happens.

+1

Here's something to consider. If you're Spielberg, and you're interested in cutting this deal, do you really care enough about the format war to make it a negotiating point?

I'd be surprised if he cared that much, but hey, let's see what happens.

I disagree, filmmakers are usually very particular about how their films are presented. Movie studio companies have two goals:

1. Make movies to entertain and make money at the theater
2. Sell movies on whatever format to the public.

Every other reason is secondary to the above.

With that in mind, I have every reason to believe that the format the studio is supporting could be a factor.

The reality is though that all of the above is indeed speculation and its possible that Universal could be swaying Spielberg to HD-DVD or it could be that he is going to ask that his films be released on bluray or both.

We dont know, but to say its not important to him is something that I disagree with.

Time will tell.

I disagree, filmmakers are usually very particular about how their films are presented. Movie studio companies have two goals:

1. Make movies to entertain and make money at the theater
2. Sell movies on whatever format to the public.

Every other reason is secondary to the above.

With that in mind, I have every reason to believe that the format the studio is supporting could be a factor.

The reality is though that all of the above is indeed speculation and its possible that Universal could be swaying Spielberg to HD-DVD or it could be that he is going to ask that his films be released on bluray or both.

We dont know, but to say its not important to him is something that I disagree with.

Time will tell.

I think The Doctor already covered this quite well in his post. Nothing more for me to add other than to say, I agree, we don't know. I simply suspect that this is not on his list of negotiation points.

Fox lost the Indian Jones because of how they treated Lucas or was it Spielberg(?)
[/IMG]

It had to do more with Lucas being unhappy that Alan Ladd jr. was let go as president of 20th Century Fox. This was in the Star Wars documentary Empire of Dreams.

I can't imagine Spielberg negotiating with Universal and using a format which has about 1% of market as an important point. but hey that's just me.

I suspect Blu-ray and HD DVD didn't even come up in the conversation. I'm betting Jurassic Park 4 did though.

Im wondering this myself. Given Spielberg "being a fan of bluray" and the clause that excludes his from films from being HD-DVD exclusive, Id say its a positive sign for bluray.

On the flip side its totally possible that Universal could have swayed Spielberg to the HD-DVD side. Hopefully we will know sooner rather than later.

Personally I think people read way too much into these meetings. This is much like Disney\Lionsgate\ect releasing movies on XBOX live. Does this mean that they are going neutral or ever will? No. The two things have nothing to do with each other, just like this meeting in the most likely scenario had nothing to do with HD DVD\Blu-ray.

It had to do more with Lucas being unhappy that Alan Ladd jr. was let go as president of 20th Century Fox. This was in the Star Wars documentary Empire of Dreams.

Yes! That was it! thanks!

Yes! That was it! thanks!

Afterall, Alan Ladd Jr. was the one who convinced Fox to fund Star Wars.

I wonder if this happens will Universal go neutral?

EXCLUSIVE: DreamWorks & NBC Universal Break Bread In Very Public Forum (Wow!)

My spies tell me that Jeff Zucker and Ron Meyer had lunch in the Universal Studios commissary dreamworks_logo.giftoday with Steven Spielberg and Stacey Snider -- and everybody was all smiles. Talk about a virtual public announcement that a reunion between the studio and DreamWorks isn't far behind! "I can't imagine GE will blow it a second time. They made an extraordinary mistake," a source told me. Meanwhile, an agent analyzed, "I wonder if this is a negotiating ploy?" Look, we all know David Geffen still has to come to terms with GE chairman Jeff Immelt and his NBC Universal errand boy Jeff Zucker, so a deal isn't yet a foregone conclusion. But Uni prez/COO Ron Meyer can facilitate the DreamWorks sale since he's longtime pals with everyone involved (and Snider's ex-boss). nbcuni-logo.gifAnd we all know that Spielberg never left the Universal lot (even after DreamWorks' sale to Paramount), and it's the studio where the director has been happiest. He'd like nothing better than to call the place home again, and partner David is in the business of giving Steven what he wants. So stay tuned.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/exclusive-dreamworks-uni-break-bread/

I suspect this sale WILL happen relatively soon. Spielberg will be leaving Parmount, unless Paramount can quickly repair some burned bridges... as part of the Paramount/Dreamworks deal, Spielberg can leave after one year AND can take the name Dreamworks with him.

Paramount would still own the Dreamworks catalog up to his departure and would own the rights to any films that are still in production at that time. And of course Paramount would still own Dreamworks Animation as it is an independent entity now.

I suspect the team of Spielberg, Geffen, and Katzenberg would be split up with Geffen and SS moving to Universal and Katzenberg staying put... there's a lot of rumor in the industry right now that Paramount plans to move Katzenberg up the food chain and put him in charge of the Paramount film division. Which would make sense as Katzenberg has some long time ties to the company and got his start there.

The move makes complete sense for SS as his offices are already there and Universal would give him something Dreamworks has lacked from day one, a real functioning studio with a real backlot, something SKG dreamed from the company's inception.

Oh, and this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the format war. I suspect Universal Home Video's high-def plans (HD-DVD exclusivity) would not change whether Spielberg comes or not.

Spielberg may be a "fan" of blu-ray, but that doesn't mean he's not a fan of HD-DVD. Frankly, I doubt Spielberg could care less when both formats have totaled just north of 3 million units sold combined and when both formats have yet to break out in standalone player sales.

CE3K's upcoming release and statements by Marvin Levy are simply spin by blu-ray fanboys... Sony would have released that title with or without Spielberg's permission... (HINT: They released CE3K in the 90s on home video without Spielberg's input/blessing on at least two separate occasions). I'm sure the Home Video division would give SS an HD-DVD presentation to explain their reasons for supporting the format and the benefits they perceive in remaining format exclusive.

I could see it now, the lights go down in the boardroom, and a tech geek from the Home Video division begins his spiel complete with PowerPoint slides and demos of various titles. The tech geek drones on about the technical benefits of HD-DVD, it's interactive features, and long term plans for the format.

Then we move on to the bean-counters from Home Video who begin their pitch, explaining in great detail the cost-benefit ratio of remaining in the HD-DVD camp. Their presentation concludes some three hours later... the lights come back up.

Spielberg slowly stretches, lets out a big yawn, and wipes the drool that had been collecting on the side of his mouth:

Spielberg: Ummm, what was that last part?

Bean-Counter: We were just concluding how if we stay format exclusive with HD-DVD we can save the company money and maximize our profits. We just need your okay to continue with our current market strategy.

Spielberg: Yeah, sure, whatever. Hey any one else starving. let's get some lunch.

Yancy

CE3K's upcoming release and statements by Marvin Levy are simply spin by blu-ray fanboys... Sony would have released that title with or without Spielberg's permission... (HINT: They released CE3K in the 90s on home video without Spielberg's input/blessing on at least two separate occasions). I'm sure the Home Video division would give SS an HD-DVD presentation to explain their reasons for supporting the format and the benefits they perceive in remaining format exclusive.


These are the quotes I get tired of. You (nor does anyone on this board) have NO proof that Sony would have just released CE3K with or without Spielbergs blessing. Im tired of seeing people spin this. Spielberg participated quite a bit on the CE3K dvd and had a big hand in the documentary, therefore a rational person has no reason to believe that he was unhappy when Sony released that film.

More importanly, he approved the the new high def transfer for the bluray version coming up.

If you can submit proof to the above, I will GLADLY apologize about it and drop the issue permanently.

In your defense, Spielberg has never said that he has anything against HD-DVD and I agree with this.
But the evidence that he supports bluray over HD-DVD is pretty strong:

1. Universal having to apologize about mentioning his films TWICE on HD-DVD.
2. His spokesman saying Spielberg is a fan of bluray.
3. Having his films omitted from being HD-DVD exclusive for the Para/DW deal.

All of the above provides VERY strong evidence that he is at the very least against HD-DVD exclusive. I fail to see how anyone can disgree with this. I do acknowledge that it is possible, but come on.

1. Universal having to apologize about mentioning his films TWICE on HD-DVD.
2. His spokesman saying Spielberg is a fan of bluray.
3. Having his films omitted from being HD-DVD exclusive for the Para/DW deal.



1) Did you not notice there never was a second official "apology" from Universal for the japanese slides?

2) "His spokesman" being the key words for this one.

3) He wants control of his movies just like Lucas. Doesnt mean he dislikes HD DVD.

See I can get my own opinions based on these comments.

1) Did you not notice there never was a second official "apology" from Universal for the japanese slides?

2) "His spokesman" being the key words for this one.

3) He wants control of his movies just like Lucas. Doesnt mean he dislikes HD DVD.

See I can get my own opinions based on these comments.

Except that your opinions are spinning and his are not.

1. So 1 public apology followed by a not-so-public apology isn't good enough for you? :rolleyes:

2. If you had a spokesman, and he said something you didnt want him to say, would he be your spokesman any more?

3. The poster you quoted never said Spielberg doesnt like HD DVD.

1) Did you not notice there never was a second official "apology" from Universal for the japanese slides?

2) "His spokesman" being the key words for this one.

3) He wants control of his movies just like Lucas. Doesnt mean he dislikes HD DVD.

See I can get my own opinions based on these comments.

I think the transfers are already done, like Universal did for "Back To The Future". It probably was a "look what we will have" not a
"guess what's being released (soon)"
I think it be a mistake to release them now any way, the HDM market isn't big enough to take full advantage of these titles.

They never admitted a mistake though,, as far as I know the only apology to SS was back in January or February (?). This time Universal said was “Universal has not made any formal announcements regarding Spielberg catalog titles coming to HD DVD at this time,”
Not an apology and not a confirmation.

Except that your opinions are spinning and his are not.

1. So 1 public apology followed by a not-so-public apology isn't good enough for you? :rolleyes:

2. If you had a spokesman, and he said something you didnt want him to say, would he be your spokesman any more?

3. The poster you quoted never said Spielberg doesnt like HD DVD.


1) Go re-read the press release after the slides were shown. It clearly states "Universal will release a public apology soon.". It was the HD DVD group that apologized and made the comments about the Universal apology.

2) Still a spokeman who gets paid to say whatever he is told to say. Have you heard it or quoted from SS?

3) He wants control of his movies. How in the hell do you get he doesnt want them on HD DVD?

Fact is: he has NEVER come out and said "HD DV...lol....Never!" unlike what the blu side wants to believe.

1) Go re-read the press release after the slides were shown. It clearly states "Universal will release a public apology soon.". It was the HD DVD group that apologized and made the comments about the Universal apology.

2) Still a spokeman who gets paid to say whatever he is told to say. Have you heard it or quoted from SS?

3) He wants control of his movies. How in the hell do you get he doesnt want them on HD DVD?

Fact is: he has NEVER come out and said "HD DV...lol....Never!" unlike what the blu side wants to believe.


1) You lost me here. Either way, both times it was called a "mistake" I fail to see what you are trying to prove.

2) Thank you a spokesman IS paid to say whatever he is told to say and he apparently was told that Spielberg is a fan of bluray. I dont at all see how anyone can believe that a spokesman would falsely speak on behalf of someone they are paid to represent.

3)Ok, if you would have read what I wrote, you would see that I explicitly stated that it has NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER been said that Spielberg dislikes HD-DVD. BUT I DID say that evidence is reasonably strong that he prefers bluray over HD-DVD. Not once did I say or EVEN infer that he dislikes HD-DVD. NOT ONCE. How was that part not obvious?

I, myself, prefer bluray, but that hardly means I dislike HD-DVD. If you are going to respond to my comments make sure you read them correctly/

These are the quotes I get tired of. You (nor does anyone on this board) have NO proof that Sony would have just released CE3K with or without Spielbergs blessing. Im tired of seeing people spin this.

If you can submit proof to the above, I will GLADLY apologize about it and drop the issue permanently.

Twice in the early-mid 1990s Sony issued CE3K on laser disc never asking Spielberg for permission. The first infamous release was the single disc release (which looked like utter crap)... how do I know Spielberg was opposed to the release??? First hand, through Vilmos Zsigmond (the DP of CE3K).

My friend was in charge of the Art Direction Department for Sony/Tristar/Columbia studios at the time. We were on the set of "The Quick and the Dead". My friend had just gotten a brand new copy of the single disc laser disc and wanted Vilmos Zsigmond to sign it. Zsigmond was doing some DP work for Sam Raimi (as a personal favor, he's uncredited) on reshoots for the "Quick and the Dead" because Dante Spinotti was unavailable at the time. Zsigmond took the disc and dutifully signed it, looked at my friend and said "You know, Steven and I are not too happy about this disc..."

Zsigmond went on to explain that Sony never once consulted with either of them about the transfer. The disc was repleat with bad color timing, lots of analog noise, and was just a poor, poor transfer. Sony could care less about Spielberg's "blessing". But I have no doubt when Sony offered Spielberg the chance to supervise the disc he jumped at it.


1. Universal having to apologize about mentioning his films TWICE on HD-DVD.


They apologized once... and Universal has been suspiciously silent after the recent flap at the Japanese expo... Universal never issued an apology for that so-called blunder.



2. His spokesman saying Spielberg is a fan of bluray.

Whoopie means nothing... Levy never said Spielberg is not a fan of HD-DVD. In fact if Spielberg was so opposed to HD-DVD and loved Blu-Ray soooo much, why didn't he request Paramount remove him from the documentaries on "Transformers"? If anything his appearance on a documentary gives the suggestion that he authorized the disc (after all he's the Producer), and therefor supports HD-DVD.

Really, if you want to use the words of Marvin Levy, posted on a fan blog as your evidence that Spielberg loves "Blu-Ray" and is somehow opposed to HD-DVD... well, then I don't know what to say.

Again I don't think Spielberg gives two hoots about the format war, or who wins, or which studio is exclusive or not...


Yancy

Whoopie means nothing... Levy never said Spielberg is not a fan of HD-DVD. In fact if Spielberg was so opposed to HD-DVD and loved Blu-Ray soooo much, why didn't he request Paramount remove him from the documentaries on "Transformers"? If anything his appearance on a documentary gives the suggestion that he authorized the disc (after all he's the Producer), and therefor supports HD-DVD.

Really, if you want to use the words of Marvin Levy, posted on a fan blog as your evidence that Spielberg loves "Blu-Ray" and is somehow opposed to HD-DVD... well, then I don't know what to say.


Apparently you cant read either. Did I say that it was ever said that Spielberg has anything against HD-DVD? EVER??? I already responded to D-X comments about this and yet you failed to read it.
So I am just going to repeat my response to D-X:
"Ok, if you would have read what I wrote, you would see that I explicitly stated that it has NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER been said that Spielberg dislikes HD-DVD. BUT I DID say that evidence is reasonably strong that he prefers bluray over HD-DVD. Not once did I say or EVEN infer that he dislikes HD-DVD. NOT ONCE. How was that part not obvious?"


All I have said is that there is evidence that Spielberg prefers bluray over HD-DVD and that it is possible that this preference could influence him going to back to Universal. That is all I have said. I dont claim it to be fact, but I can at the very least offer evidence to suggest that my theory holds water. Does that mean its correct? Not at all. Im just speculating.

For the record, Marv Levy was quoted on highdefdigest.com and not some "random bluray blog"

Unless you can quote me correctly, I am officially ending the debate on Spielbergs preference. Im not going to turn this thread off topic more.

guys, please take the he said, I said, they said and the rest of the speculation, interpretation and tea leaves reading to another thread.

This is the HDM Rumor Thread Part Deux! Put all rumors here.

........... <sigh> :(

Apparently you cant read either. Did I say that it was ever said that Spielberg has anything against HD-DVD? EVER??? I already responded to D-X comments about this and yet you failed to read it.
So I am just going to repeat my response to D-X:
"Ok, if you would have read what I wrote, you would see that I explicitly stated that it has NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER been said that Spielberg dislikes HD-DVD. BUT I DID say that evidence is reasonably strong that he prefers bluray over HD-DVD. Not once did I say or EVEN infer that he dislikes HD-DVD. NOT ONCE. How was that part not obvious?"

Yes I did read it an your evidence lacks weight for one reason. If he prefered blu-ray, then it would be logical to gather that he would prefer Blu-Ray win the format war.

So I ask, why on Earth would you allow a studio to release interview footage of yourself in a documentary on a format which is the direct competitor of the format you prefered? He could have simply told Paramount to excise his appearance on the disc? Hell, he could have negotiated with Paramount to ensure the studio release the film on both formats when they hammered out the details of the Paramount/Dreamworks high-def switcheroo.... he didn't.

Yancy

I agree, now back to some juicy rumors. :)

Wally World HD DVD players for $198? :D I can get family involved with this one! Rumor...or not.

Wally World HD DVD players for $198? :D I can get family involved with this one! Rumor...or not.

This is no longer a rumor.

Not sure if this was posted:

"I have a picture of a 198.00 Toshiba a2 on a endcap in walmart. I dont know how to send it. The store I was at had to take the endcap down because its not set to sell until 11/03. It will be in the circular for that week. Each store was allocated 18 units. It is set as a nonreplenishable item. Meaning the will get in whole buys when they ask for them. Meaning walmart. If anyone knows how to share a pic let me know."

http://www.hddvd-blog.com/wal-mart198.jpg
Note: I couldn’t link the image from imageshack, so I downloaded, resized and copied it to my server. It is not my picture however.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/viewComments.cfm?db=dvd

Now that CNN has confirmed that Walmart will have "unlimited" A2 HD DVD players for $198, I guess we can move this off the rumor thread.

I am waiting to see the rumors about what BB and CC will do to combat a $198 HDM player. A $400 HDM player player won't cut it anymore.:D

Now that CNN has confirmed that Walmart will have "unlimited" A2 HD DVD players for $198, I guess we can move this off the rumor thread.

I am waiting to see the rumors about what BB and CC will do to combat a $198 HDM player. A $400 HDM player player won't cut it anymore.:D

Agreed. Wally World even has their PR person confirming. Not a rumor anymore. What will the price be come black Friday? Anyone want to guess. Sony would have to take a blood bath on this one. Maybe Paramount studios had a heads up on this one.

Now that CNN has confirmed that Walmart will have "unlimited" A2 HD DVD players for $198, I guess we can move this off the rumor thread.

I am waiting to see the rumors about what BB and CC will do to combat a $198 HDM player. A $400 HDM player player won't cut it anymore.:D

Based on the "unlimited" qoute, I feel confident that WM will sell 1 bajillion players this holiday season.

Based on the "unlimited" qoute, I feel confident that WM will sell 1 bajillion players this holiday season.

Are you still confident in your choice? I am watching a pristine HD DVD of 2001 on my DLP set. Just gorgeous. Transformers, 2001 on HD DVD at WM, BB, and CC for $198. Should be quite a display. So much more and for so much less.

Are you still confident in your choice?

I wasnt confident until I saw that their supply is evidently limitless.......

Agreed. Wally World even has their PR person confirming. Not a rumor anymore. What will the price be come black Friday? Anyone want to guess. Sony would have to take a blood bath on this one. Maybe Paramount studios had a heads up on this one.

Of course Paramount had a heads up. Warner certainly would have known in general terms when the HD DVD folks were negotiating for Warner go exclusive. It would be a big an important part of any such business case.

I think that what is most interesting here is that Walmart has the brand name product on the shelf, not some store brand. Under the cover the A2 and the A3 are virtually the same. I have never had hands on with an A3 but judging from comments on the HD DVD forum the build quality on the A2 is superior.

One would also have to assume that Costco will be competitively priced on HD DVD with Walmart. This won't be like last year's Christmas with no HD DVD players to sell. Warner wants to see some units shifted by Toshiba before they go exclusive and I think what Warner wants Warner gets :D

Based on the "unlimited" qoute, I feel confident that WM will sell 1 bajillion players this holiday season.

Woudl not surpise me :eek:

Woudl not surpise me :eek:

You are right, I change my prediction to 2 bajillion.

Of course Paramount had a heads up. Warner certainly would have known in general terms when the HD DVD folks were negotiating for Warner go exclusive. It would be a big an important part of any such business case.

I think that what is most interesting here is that Walmart has the brand name product on the shelf, not some store brand. Under the cover the A2 and the A3 are virtually the same. I have never had hands on with an A3 but judging from comments on the HD DVD forum the build quality on the A2 is superior.

One would also have to assume that Costco will be competitively priced on HD DVD with Walmart. This won't be like last year's Christmas with no HD DVD players to sell. Warner wants to see some units shifted by Toshiba before they go exclusive and I think what Warner wants Warner gets :D

Anyone want to bet that Universal will go "neutral" come CES 2008? Or WB goes "exclusive?" 2001 in HD DVD is phenomenal. A must buy as far as I am concerned.

Anyone want to bet that Universal will go "neutral" come CES 2008? Or WB goes "exclusive?" 2001 in HD DVD is phenomenal. A must buy as far as I am concerned.

I think Warner will go exclusive in 2008. I have no idea to where. It is a toss up for me on Uni though.

They have to be sitting there thinking, "we have all of these tranfers done in HD, and all we would have to do to sell alot of disc is slap them onto a BD."

But who knows, it may not be worth it to them go neutral. *shrug*

You are right, I change my prediction to 2 bajillion.

haha....lets see if the software sales FINALLY start to pick up. First the story was 'wait till $299 players come out, then HDM will start to get mass-market acceptance'. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

And quite frankly the ~$200 A2 have been available via internet retailers for quite awhile. Yet the sales of Standalone HDM players are still insignifcant.

haha....lets see if the software sales FINALLY start to pick up. First the story was 'wait till $299 players come out, then HDM will start to get mass-market acceptance'. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

And quite frankly the ~$200 A2 have been available via internet retailers for quite awhile. Yet the sales of Standalone HDM players are still insignifcant.

They will pick up, but everyone will be disappointed with overall HDM player numbers until they start including an HDTV for that "magic" $198. (or any other price for that matter)

Or...................they will sell 2 bajillion of them.

In regard to Universal going neutral, rumor has it that they have been snooping around the bluray replication facilities.

According to penton a hollywood insider from bluray.com

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=296715&postcount=4755

Take that how you will.

My stance is that Ill believe it when I see (or read it from an official source)

In regard to Universal going neutral, rumor has it that they have been snooping around the bluray replication facilities.

According to penton a hollywood insider from bluray.com

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=296715&postcount=4755

Take that how you will.

My stance is that Ill believe it when I see (or read it from an official source)

I heard the same rumor, but it was October 2006. Why does the Blu team always start this same rumor at the start of Q4? Is it that they're trying to suppress HD DVD sales?

Wally World HD DVD players for $198? :D I can get family involved with this one! Rumor...or not.

On an endcap?
WAR OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I heard the same rumor, but it was October 2006. Why does the Blu team always start this same rumor at the start of Q4? Is it that they're trying to suppress HD DVD sales?

Well, I have no doubt that they have been snooping around bluray facilities, but that doesnt mean they are considering going neutral. In fact Im willing to get that bluray exclusive studios spend some time checking out HD-DVD replication facilities. They are just preparing themselves for the possibility.

Well, I have no doubt that they have been snooping around bluray facilities, but that doesnt mean they are considering going neutral. In fact Im willing to get that bluray exclusive studios spend some time checking out HD-DVD replication facilities. They are just preparing themselves for the possibility.

Yeah, it was the same rumor last year coming from BD insiders. Universal executives were seen checking out blu-ray production facilities. Then Penton-Man is saying that this somehow shows that Alan Bell from Paramount is wrong about BD scalability. How? It seems that the red team knows very well what's going on with BD production.

The best part is when all of the Blu Bloods get whipped up by this stuff and start posting about how Universal is getting ready to announce they're going Blu at CES.

Brilliant viral marketing. Of course it gets a little stale the second time you run the same play.

Or...................they will sell 2 bajillion of them.

Let's see, 1, carry the 2, subtract BD standalones, and that's about 2 bajillion more standalone player sales than Blu-ray will have :D

haha....lets see if the software sales FINALLY start to pick up. First the story was 'wait till $299 players come out, then HDM will start to get mass-market acceptance'. Of course, nothing of the sort happened. .

I must have imagined the A2 being the #1 player at Amazon.com for a lot of the time when it was in stock.


And quite frankly the ~$200 A2 have been available via internet retailers for quite awhile. Yet the sales of Standalone HDM players are still insignifcant.

Not quite frankly :confused: A few short term sales at $200 do not constitute widespread availability at that price. Current prices at amazon.com are currently in the $230+ range, and stores like Costco and Value Electronics are in the $250 range. Nice try but there haven't been any major retailers with regular prices below $200.

All I have said is that there is evidence that Spielberg prefers bluray over HD-DVD and that it is possible that this preference could influence him going to back to Universal. That is all I have said. I dont claim it to be fact, but I can at the very least offer evidence to suggest that my theory holds water. Does that mean its correct? Not at all. Im just speculating.


I've never seen evidence that Spielberg PREFERS Bluray over HD-DVD. I've seen evidence that he is a director who feels that if there is a format war, there should be choice and films should be available on both. I've never seen him say "I'd prefer to be on Bluray"

Anyone have links I could look at?

People do realize that the A2's are being clearanced out. once they're gone they're gone. so it's not like it's a new player that will be that price from here on out. also, not all walmarts are getting them. I work at one and checked, none on order. all we have is the sony bp300 standalone.

People do realize that the A2's are being clearanced out. once they're gone they're gone. so it's not like it's a new player that will be that price from here on out. also, not all walmarts are getting them. I work at one and checked, none on order. all we have is the sony bp300 standalone.

I would assume that most folks here understand that with the G3 players now shipping, G2 players like the A2 are being priced to clear out remaining inventory.

I would assume that most folks here understand that with the G3 players now shipping, G2 players like the A2 are being priced to clear out remaining inventory.

And the nice thing about that is you can strategically allocate this closeout merchandize to acheive the best market penetration while avoiding channel conflict. BB can sell A3s at their price and the Walmarts and the Costco can sell A2s price for their audience. Retailers and end customers win. Best thing about it that the merchandize is on the shelf this year in time to have the most impact during the holiday season unlike last year.

haha....lets see if the software sales FINALLY start to pick up. First the story was 'wait till $299 players come out, then HDM will start to get mass-market acceptance'. Of course, nothing of the sort happened.

And quite frankly the ~$200 A2 have been available via internet retailers for quite awhile. Yet the sales of Standalone HDM players are still insignifcant.

If you look at the past sales data and see HD DVD hit the 100,000 stand alone sold close to their 1 year aniv. then when they droped the price to $299 they sold 70k-80k in 2 months. Seems $299 was a price point for some...probably upper middle class...maybe middle class with no kids. Now $198 is a price point for a new demographic...probable middle class families....and yes every time the price is lowered sales increase.

I think that what is most interesting here is that Walmart has the brand name product on the shelf, not some store brand. Under the cover the A2 and the A3 are virtually the same.


They are VERY different under the hood. What makes you think they are similar?

The A3 is based on an SOC while the A2 has a Celeron inside...

Ummm...where did the rumors go? This is the same bickering as in all the other threads...

They are VERY different under the hood. What makes you think they are similar?

The A3 is based on an SOC while the A2 has a Celeron inside...

May I see a link for this info. I believe the A2 has the NEC EMMA3 SoC:

http://www.necus.com/companies/2/NECElectronics_Introduces_Next_%20Generation.pdf

Just to end the useless discussion.

There are 3 main processors in the HD-A2:

NEC D61335F1 : handels all realtime Audio and Video decoding and DTS recoding.

Intel SG82854G : MCH Northbridge is a graphics memory controller hub, processor / DDR SDRAM / Display und Hub Inteface simply known from standard PC mainboards.

Intel Celeron M 900 - LE80554/SL8XS: Main CPU, 900MHz, FSB400, 0kB SL-Cache

Additional for other interfaces: Intel NH82801DBM Southbridge as I/O Controller Hub 4 Mobile, PCI Rev2.2, ACPI, Enhanced DMA, IDE Controller, USB2.0, LAN Controller, SMBus

Very interesting to see the LAN and Flashram sealed with plastic, so that no one can easily read out the firmware.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9543027&postcount=52

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12033060&postcount=195

Rumor: Leaked screens show IPTV and Fall update

The two four screenshots you see in the gallery below were sent to us by tipster Aaron, who says that he turned on his Xbox 360 today and noticed a new TV icon with four text squares in his media blade and was wondering if we knew what it was all about. We investigated and noticed that this new TV icon option wasn't normal and replaced the "Video Marketplace" option that we see on our dash. The second thing we noticed was that, when hovered over, the description for the mysterious TV icon option reads:

Use television services.
Live & recorded TV
On-demand movies
Chat while watching TV

Sounds like IPTV options to us. Once clicked, an error message pops up stating that it was "unable to start" and to contact support at www.microsoft.com/tv. That URL will take you to Microsoft's Mediaroom website ... also interesting. So, if everything is legit in these pictures and Aaron doesn't end up being a Photoshop God, we're going speculate that this random occurrence is related somehow to the Fall update.

Pics at link

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929319

This past week I was at a WB Press Event for their Q4 titles. The Toshiba Team was on hand I interviewed both them and WB about Q4.

Off the record I asked if anything would be happening on the 31st concerning the possible expiration of the BD contract with WB and they both danced around the question, but one of them said that something interested... "If I were a betting person, which I am, I would bet something...." then I was interrupted and missed the rest of it. Read in to it what you will, but my personal belief is something is going to happen or be announced come the 31st.

Also, in the WB portion he gave me an exclusive about a title coming in January. Check it out here.

http://www.eyecravedvd.com/article.php?story=20071025104926326

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929319

The only thing this shows is Canadians really do talk like the McKenzie Brothers....:D

The only thing this shows is Canadians really do talk like the McKenzie Brothers....:DI'd have to agree w/that. :)

I didn't know October 31 was the last day of the WB BD contract though...

I would assume that most folks here understand that with the G3 players now shipping, G2 players like the A2 are being priced to clear out remaining inventory.

So I guess you missed the story where Walmart said there was no limit to their supply of A2s. Also, many stores now have end-caps with over 40 boxes. That does not sound like clearing out inventory. It sounds like Walmart made a deal to carry an HDM player for the magic under $200 price point they were looking for.

So I guess you missed the story where Walmart said there was no limit to their supply of A2s. Also, many stores now have end-caps with over 40 boxes. That does not sound like clearing out inventory. It sounds like Walmart made a deal to carry an HDM player for the magic under $200 price point they were looking for.

Hmmm. Thanks for the update. I would have thought it made more sense to sell the A3 at under $200.

I'd have to agree w/that. :)

I didn't know October 31 was the last day of the WB BD contract though... So it could be a Warner Halloween Boo to Blu-ray. :eek:

Or is that Boo Hoo.... :p


But seriously, .....

I would find it unlikely after the IFA and CEDIA events that Warner would go the PAramount/Dreamworks route and abandon Blu-ray support and go HD DVD exclusive.

At CES next Jan maybe, but I would be shocked if it happened before the 4Q sales results are clear.

Hmmm. Thanks for the update. I would have thought it made more sense to sell the A3 at under $200.

From Toshiba's perspective it might do (costs them less to manufacture), but from a possible Walmart perspective, the A2 offers a known track record (plus it provides name brand model differentiation.)

So it could be a Warner Halloween Boo to Blu-ray. :eek:

Or is that Boo Hoo.... :p


But seriously, .....

I would find it unlikely after the IFA and CEDIA events that Warner would go the PAramount/Dreamworks route and abandon Blu-ray support and go HD DVD exclusive.

At CES next Jan maybe, but I would be shocked if it happened before the 4Q sales results are clear.

"Shocked" seems a little strong -- companies regularly provide disinformation when it comes to their planning. Although I'd be a little surprised, it would certainly seem very possible! End of membership agreement/contract is a reasonable juncture for making such a move.

Concerning this A2 versus A3 issue. All the moulds are paid for on the A2 (for making the plastic parts) so their cost is now only material. A new set of moulds is being used on the A3.

The components inside each all come from the same companies so we know that economies of scale have already kicked in. Remember - no CEM has reached the volume of SAL players that Toshiba has - not by a long shot.

As has been suggested - The A2 will continue to be sold at WM and the warehouse clubs. It does not include two movies like the A3 does. Remember Toshiba still makes and sells the XA2 - a Gen2 player.

BB, CC and other CE resellers will choose/get the A3 (which officially streets this coming week BTW). (and it seems CC has gotten a hold of some A2's.)

Yes the A3 has less components in it than the A2 but not by too much. Same SoC . . Same HD DVD drive. . . Same HDMI processor chip, etc.

Same HDMI processor chipReally? I thought that the Celeron was swapped for a MIPS cpu? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11916831#post11916831

Really? I thought that the Celeron was swapped for a MIPS cpu? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11916831#post11916831
He wrote "HDMI processor chip". Maybe he meant the HDMI output drivers.

He wrote "HDMI processor chip". Maybe he meant the HDMI output drivers.

There is an HDMI chip in each HD player. If I described it wrong . . . my bad.

The idea is to use less chips to accomplish the same or greater performance.

So it could be a Warner Halloween Boo to Blu-ray. :eek:

Or is that Boo Hoo.... :p


But seriously, .....

I would find it unlikely after the IFA and CEDIA events that Warner would go the PAramount/Dreamworks route and abandon Blu-ray support and go HD DVD exclusive.

At CES next Jan maybe, but I would be shocked if it happened before the 4Q sales results are clear.

Prepare to be shocked, Kosty!;)

"Shocked" seems a little strong -- companies regularly provide disinformation when it comes to their planning. Although I'd be a little surprised, it would certainly seem very possible! End of membership agreement/contract is a reasonable juncture for making such a move.

Shocking yes, but strategic yes also. if they really wanted HD DVD to win straight-up, what better way to give it a boost going into Xmas 07? Toshiba provides the right price, Warner supply's the consumer confidence and content, or at least forecast of exclusive content.

No BOGO sale can touch "WARNER GOES HD DVD EXCLUSIVE!" right? That would put a major curse on BD confidence.

That said it is a "consummation devoutly to be wished" on my part. End the war in my favor? Yeah, I could go for that. :D

As far as WB (my observations):

1. Providing a movie in the box of a Gen3 HD DVD player.

2. Still 20 movies that are exclusive to HD DVD

3. Pursuing IME and IF aggressively.

Card soon to be played by Paramount and the HD DVD PG:

Star Trek TOS Box set - NO DVD release. Only HD DVD/DVD combo. Buy the set and a Gen3 player and get the free Phaser Remote. Awful lot of trekkies out there and they don't need an HDTV to see this box set. Pool of buyers just went from 500,000 to 135 million.

Cards yet to be played:

1. DL Twin - waters tested - it works with no problems
2. TL Twin
3. TL51

Major Trump Card Just Played:

$198 priced A2 at Wal-mart and CC.

"Looking Good!":D

Card soon to be played by Paramount and the HD DVD PG:

Star Trek TOS Box set - NO DVD release. Only HD DVD/DVD combo. Buy the set and a Gen3 player and get the free Phaser Remote. Awful lot of trekkies out there and they don't need an HDTV to see this box set. Pool of buyers just went from 500,000 to 135 million.

Did those Star Trek shows never come out on DVD ?

Did those Star Trek shows never come out on DVD ?

They have been improved. What exactly is on the DVD side I am not sure about. I do know they redid many of the special effects and used new CGI for the Enterprise in space shots.

Once again for those that may have missed it. the Phaser remote:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/31EBT3TBD0L__AA280_.jpg

They have been improved. What exactly is on the DVD side I am not sure about. I do know they redid many of the special effects and used new CGI for the Enterprise in space shots.

Once again for those that may have missed it. the Phaser remote:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/31EBT3TBD0L__AA280_.jpg
Will it come with my order from Amazon?

There is an HDMI chip in each HD player. If I described it wrong . . . my bad.

The idea is to use less chips to accomplish the same or greater performance.
makes sense, thank you.

As far as WB (my observations):

1. Providing a movie in the box of a Gen3 HD DVD player.

2. Still 20 movies that are exclusive to HD DVD

3. Pursuing IME and IF aggressively.


T3 with IME on Blu Ray coming soon.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Exclusive_HD_Content/Terminator_3_Bound_For_Blu-ray_This_December/1069

(How PIP is implemented is irrelevant)

More titles will surely follow.

Sorry, there is no evidence that Warner is going HD DVD exclusive.

Will it come with my order from Amazon?

You have to buy the player and discs, then send off for it, I think.

T3 with IME on Blu Ray coming soon.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Exclusive_HD_Content/Terminator_3_Bound_For_Blu-ray_This_December/1069

(How PIP is implemented is irrelevant)

More titles will surely follow.

Sorry, there is no evidence that Warner is going HD DVD exclusive.

I agree that there's no evidence that Warner will go exclusive HD DVD. On the other hand if you were to ask which format have they shown a bit of favoritism to, that would be HD DVD.

As for T3, does that mean anything after Paramount destroyed Blades of Glory BD discs?

WB going HD-DVD would be awesome though. Its not a Blu-ray killer, but it would create pandemonium for weeks (fun), and more competition means we as consumers are better off.

Though if they went the other way, well, thats more of a killer blow, and war over, well, thats not an altogether awful prospect, just not as fun.


In the end though, its unlikely anything is going to happen. It would be hypocritical of WB to say the least as they've been pretty staunch in saying its up to consumers, and well, the amount of money they'd want would be huge. Too huge.

There is an HDMI chip in each HD player. If I described it wrong . . . my bad.

The idea is to use less chips to accomplish the same or greater performance.And I was thinking you meant HDi. :o

No problem -- just that I'll bet the NEC MIPS cpu is less expensive to Toshiba to acquire/use than an Intel Celeron. It would make sense that the A3 uses lower cost parts, less current, and a simpler power supply.

T3 with IME on Blu Ray coming soon.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announcements/Exclusive_HD_Content/Terminator_3_Bound_For_Blu-ray_This_December/1069

(How PIP is implemented is irrelevant)

More titles will surely follow.

Sorry, there is no evidence that Warner is going HD DVD exclusive.

I imagine it cost Warner some money to re-work T3 to even "fake" PiP (as well as now having to use a more expensive BD50 disc). Wonder if its worth it to them to sell a couple thousand discs.

They have been improved. What exactly is on the DVD side I am not sure about. I do know they redid many of the special effects and used new CGI for the Enterprise in space shots.

Once again for those that may have missed it. the Phaser remote:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/31EBT3TBD0L__AA280_.jpg

I'm still unlear about this. Do I have to purchase an A3 and Star Trek at the same time to be eligible? I already have a G3 and would love the Phaser...how would I do a rebate for it if I have to mail in my A3 UPC for the 5 Free?

I imagine it cost Warner some money to re-work T3 to even "fake" PiP (as well as now having to use a more expensive BD50 disc). Wonder if its worth it to them to sell a couple thousand discs.

I'm wondering now about the New Line BD releases announced with PiP. I thought it was an indication they were prepared to "test out" BD1.1 specs, but now I wonder if they're going Warner's route with a second encode with the PiP burned on. :(

I'm still unlear about this. Do I have to purchase an A3 and Star Trek at the same time to be eligible? I already have a G3 and would love the Phaser...how would I do a rebate for it if I have to mail in my A3 UPC for the 5 Free?

The Press Release (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Paramount/Toshiba/CEDIA/CEDIA:_Toshiba,_CBS_to_Offer_Limited_Edition_Star_Trek_Phase r_HD_DVD_Remote_Control/937) on HighDefDigest just said "Buy a Toshiba Player and the Star Trek: TOS " to get one. So, any player, not just the A3. I saw somewhere else - which I can't locate at the moment - that the form to order the Phaser remote would be in the TOS box. I would expect a copy of the player sales receipt would be adequate - but maybe make a copy of the UPC & Rebate Form before mailing in just to be sure. I just ordered an A35 to upgrade my XA1, and have TOS on pre-order, so I'm looking for a Phaser remote as well. :p

Let's keep THIS thread to rumors and, perhaps, a quick comment or two about the rumor. Don't want it getting off topic and off track. Thanks.
^^^^^

From Hi Def News. By ME! :)

Will Warner Bros. Endorse Blu-ray? (http://www.tvpredictions.com/bluwarner103007.htm)

Washington, D.C. (October 30, 2007) -- Warner Bros. has been neutral in the Blu-ray-HD DVD disc war, releasing movies in both high-def formats.

However, that policy may be changing, says a top Warner executive.

Dan Silverberg, Warner's vice president of High-Definition media, hinted Monday at a Blu-ray briefing for the media that the studio might soon endorse Blu-ray.

Warner is now the only major studio that releases movies in both format; two support HD DVD exclusively while four have endorsed Blu-ray.

But Home Media Magazine reports that Silverberg believes that Blu-ray may be winning the format war and, consequently, it may be time for the studio to pick one over the other.

“One thing that may be changing is our strategy,” he said. “When both formats launched and hardware prices were high, we made a decision to support both formats and let the consumer decide. But now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide — so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter.”
The Warner executive noted that Blu-ray sales have topped HD DVD by a 2-1 margin over the last nine months.

While he didn't come out and endorse Blu-ray, it sounded like the studio had a clear favorite if it decides to endorse one format.

“We can definitely talk Blu-ray,” he said. “We are committed to the format.”More here...

Blu-ray Mounts Event Offensive (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=11449)

Kosty also says announcement tomorrow.

Let's keep it clean and civil, please. No bashing, only rumor related.

Here's my theory:

Do you really think THD was that problematic? It was said so people would forget about it for a little while. So, they have the "ability" and patents to do so. So how can they start selling it?

If they go BD exclusive, it will kill THD. The war will begin to trickle away but very slowly.

Now, if the go HD exclusive, things will heat up quite a bit. It will not end the way but rather fuel it even more. It will be to the point where the other studios will finally rethink their stance and finally cave in. Cave in what way? neutrality. and who will be the hero that swoops down from the heavens to save us all? THD!

So whatever decision they make, it will not end this war immediately. that can't happen. BD had their chance to take the crown in 2007 but failed. BD will not go away and neither is HD. So if you're still on the fence because of this war, pick a side. Any side. you're media is still going to be played for years to come...

From the HMM article...

Later in the day, on the 20th Century Fox lot, 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment president Mike Dunn blasted Paramount for its defection, accusing the studio of “taking the bait,” referring to a reported $50 million payout to drop its support of Blu-ray Disc and release titles exclusively in HD DVD.

Dunn also intimated that the format war is being perpetuated by Microsoft in the hopes of confusing consumers so much they don’t support either format and ultimately buy their entertainment online. He didn’t name the computer giant by name, but blasted “the orchestrated campaigns of confusion and anti-consumerism fueled by an 800-pound gorilla that would prefer to force us all into the practice of paying tolls for the right to exchange information and enjoy entertainment.” Sounds like Dunn's head is going to explode. He doesn't sound like a guy with great news to share...

“We can definitely talk Blu-ray,” he said. “We are committed to the format.”

Definitely a true statement. They're committed contractually.





Through tomorrow.

is this new? when you click "hd-def" on http://www2.warnerbros.com/main/homepage/homepage.html

it briefly goes to
http://www.warnervideo.com/wb_hddvd/us/html

then quickly changes to
http://www.warnervideo.com/warner_bros_hi_definition/us/html/

http://i21.tinypic.com/333936s.png

is this something left from when wb was hd dvd only or something new?

As requested , a repost in this thread

The TVPredictions piece is sourced from the HMM article, it is just adding some editorial comments that are not actually stated in the original piece.

Notice the implied comments in blue are not from the sourced article, they are his own interpetation of it....

Dan Silverberg, Warner's vice president of High-Definition media, hinted Monday at a Blu-ray briefing for the media that the studio might soon endorse Blu-ray.

Warner is now the only major studio that releases movies in both format; two support HD DVD exclusively while four have endorsed Blu-ray.

But Home Media Magazine reports that Silverberg believes that Blu-ray may be winning the format war and, consequently, it may be time for the studio to pick one over the other If you read through the HMM piece, you can see that it is a bit more neutral on the statements and nowhere is there in the source article those words.

That is Swammi editorializing and reading a bit more into the sourced article than what was really carefully said.


Heres, the appropriate quotes form the referenced article:

Notice he was a Blu-ray conference as a guest, as Warner was not an event sponsor:

...Also there was Dan Silverberg, VP of high-definition media for Warner Home Video, which since Paramount’s move to the HD DVD camp is the only studio to support both next-generation formats.

That may not be for long, Silverberg said. “One thing that may be changing is our strategy,” he said. “When both formats launched and hardware prices were high, we made a decision to support both formats and let the consumer decide. But now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide — so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter.”

Silverberg noted that Warner has the top-selling Blu-ray title of all time with 300 and is consistently No. 1 or No. 2 in both Blu-ray sales market share and in number of Blu-ray titles in the market.

“We can definitely talk Blu-ray,” he said. “We are committed to the format.”

is this something left from when wb was hd dvd only or something new?
Lets see:
www.warnervideo.com/wb_hddvd/us/html/
~32 pages between Aug 22, 2006 and Jul 03, 2007

In reference to the Warner titles that are exclusive to HD-DVD, there's cover art now available here (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=21540) for most of the same titles on Blu-Ray. If Warner was ditching Blu-Ray, I don't think these titles would be coming.

In reference to the Warner titles that are exclusive to HD-DVD, there's cover art now available here (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=21540) for most of the same titles on Blu-Ray. If Warner was ditching Blu-Ray, I don't think these titles would be coming.

You mean like this cover art?
http://www.ezydvd.com.au/g/i/p/794655.jpg


The only thing for certain is that some of you are going to be looking pretty foolish once again for reading too much into this stuff.

You mean like this cover art?
http://www.ezydvd.com.au/g/i/p/794655.jpg


The only thing for certain is that some of you are going to be looking pretty foolish once again for reading too much into this stuff.

Hey, stop looking at me!

From the HMM article...
"...force us all into the practice of paying tolls for the right to exchange information and enjoy entertainment"


Isn't that what Fox, the BDA, and BD+ is all about?:D

I am still 90% sure that Warner will go HD-DVD exclusive!

One more day until we find out :)

Isn't that what Fox, the BDA, and BD+ is all about?:D

If by "tolls" you mean buying the movie instead of stealing it, sure.

In reference to the Warner titles that are exclusive to HD-DVD, there's cover art now available here (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=21540) for most of the same titles on Blu-Ray. If Warner was ditching Blu-Ray, I don't think these titles would be coming.

99% of those coverarts were copied from HD DVD and pasted onto a blue case. Takes 5 seconds to do. WB has NOT announced any except T3. Besides Paramount defected less than a week prior to Blades of Glory's street date. Anything is possible.

If by "tolls" you mean buying the movie instead of stealing it, sure.

I meant making a backup copy or placing a movie on a media server so that you can access it.

I have 3 small children and a dog. They all have a bad habit of destroying discs.

I meant making a backup copy or placing a movie on a media server so that you can access it.

I have 3 small children and a dog. They all have a bad habit of destroying discs.

This insane emphasis on copy protection only ends up hurting innocent consumers! Big-time pirates have NO problems getting their hands on prints and other originals.:mad:

99% of those coverarts were copied from HD DVD and pasted onto a blue case. Takes 5 seconds to do. WB has NOT announced any except T3. Besides Paramount defected less than a week prior to Blades of Glory's street date. Anything is possible.

If you read this thread and watch the video, a Warner rep. mentions a certain Will Smith movie coming to HD DVD in January. I am not saying it is going to happen, but I think it is a better indicator than finding cover art.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929319

Here is the interview with the President of WHV that was done with TWICE:

Warner: We're Staying With HD DVD & Blu-ray

by Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 9/12/2007 10:31:00 AM
Denver — Despite reports that Warner Home Video has been offered lucrative payments to follow Paramount’s path and become an exclusive HD DVD high-definition disc provider, the company’s president Ron Sanders told TWICE at CEDIA Expo that the company has enjoyed strong sales in both formats and will likely continue to support both until that changes.

Sanders: We’re talking to both sides and it’s crazy right now. We remain committed to both for the time being. We’ll see how the fourth quarter plays out. The consumer is still kind of divided, and we still believe that we should offer the content in both formats. Now, we will watch the marketplace very closely, and see how it plays out, but for now we are supporting both.


TWICE: What do you expect will happen?

Sanders: It’s really hard to handicap. I can’t tell, which side, if any, will win. Right now it’s like a Mexican standoff. If the consumer continues to support both formats, the industry will as well. It will be really pivotal what Toshiba does this fourth quarter in hardware. If they sell through everything they ship, and it’s a big number at the price points that are coming out, then I think [HD DVD] will be around for a long time. If they don’t, then it could go Blu-ray’s way. But Toshiba is getting very, very aggressive on pricing, which is putting pressure on Blu-ray player manufacturers to bring prices down. As a content company we just want more hardware in the homes. So what ever drives more hardware is good to see. Right now it looks like there is price pressure on both sides because there are two formats — more pressure than there would be if there was only one format. So, for our interests, more razors means we’ll sell more razor blades down the road.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6477849.html

Remember, let's keep it civil and on point! Discuss the rumor only!

It was pointed out to me that "if Warner was going blu-ray exclusive why didn't they make the announcement at the blu-ray fiesta where this quote was taken"?

Good point. Why not announce at the meeting?

Guys, I really don’t see what all of the fuss is about. I read the article several times now and all he did was reiterate what has already been said. Warner Bros is going to evaluate how the fourth quarter plays out and that “may” lead to a change in strategy.

They’ve been committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD since both formats launched and to say that they’re committed to Blu-ray, at a Blu-ray event, is not very significant in my opinion. Especially when you put it into context and realize that they just had a fourth quarter event were HD DVD was present and not Blu-ray.

Guys, I really don’t see what all of the fuss is about. I read the article several times now and all he did was reiterate what has already been said. Warner Bros is going to evaluate how the fourth quarter plays out and that “may” lead to a change in strategy.

They’ve been committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD since both formats launched and to say that they’re committed to Blu-ray, at a Blu-ray event, is not very significant in my opinion. Especially when you put it into context and realize that they just had a fourth quarter event were HD DVD was present and not Blu-ray.I think it's hinging on this quote:

Also there was Dan Silverberg, VP of high-definition media for Warner Home Video, which since Paramount’s move to the HD DVD camp is the only studio to support both next-generation formats.

That may not be for long, Silverberg said. “One thing that may be changing is our strategy,” he said. “When both formats launched and hardware prices were high, we made a decision to support both formats and let the consumer decide. But now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide — so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter.” I take that to mean "4th quarter" as in, before holidays.

That coupled with Kosty's comment in the battle thread that there is a major announcement coming from Warner tomorrow.

Here is the interview with the President of WHV that was done with TWICE:

Warner: We're Staying With HD DVD & Blu-ray

by Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 9/12/2007 10:31:00 AM
Denver — Despite reports that Warner Home Video has been offered lucrative payments to follow Paramount’s path and become an exclusive HD DVD high-definition disc provider, the company’s president Ron Sanders told TWICE at CEDIA Expo that the company has enjoyed strong sales in both formats and will likely continue to support both until that changes.

Sanders also revealed that Warner will be releasing all four “Harry Potter” movies on high-definition discs in time for the holidays, and confirmed reports that Warner’s plans for its TotalHD flipper disc remain on hold.

The following is a Q&A interview with Sanders during a gathering of Blu-ray Disc Association members at the custom electronics trade show.

Warner Home Video president Ron Sanders meets fellow Blu-ray Disc Association member Cliff Loeb, HP Blu-ray licensing director at a CEDIA media luncheon.

TWICE: What is the status of your plans for TotalHD?

Sanders: We’re concerned that as the only one publishing on it, it would be hard to make it go. We’re still looking at, though. We’re still talking to retail, but it’s kind of on hold right now.

TWICE: With plans for THD on hold, what do you think about the new dual-format players on the market?

Sanders: I’m excited about dual-format players. It takes out that worry about picking the wrong format, and with the studios lining up on one or the other format it’s kind of a nice solution, but until the price points come down — they are still around $1,000 — it’s not going to be a mass product. As more and more drives go into computers for both formats, I think that will drive the price down for drives going into set tops.

TWICE: Have you received offers from HD DVD or Blu-ray to be exclusive with either format, as Paramount recently did with HD DVD?

Sanders: We’re talking to both sides and it’s crazy right now. We remain committed to both for the time being. We’ll see how the fourth quarter plays out. The consumer is still kind of divided, and we still believe that we should offer the content in both formats. Now, we will watch the marketplace very closely, and see how it plays out, but for now we are supporting both.

TWICE: Do you actively encourage retail accounts to stock both formats?

Sanders: We do. There are no special incentives to support both but they will chase the consumer, and the consumer wants both. In software, new release titles are selling around 2-to-1, Blu-ray to HD DVD. But it varies by any given title. On “Planet Earth” we sold more HD DVD than Blu-ray and on “300” we sold more Blu-ray than HD. It’s probably two-thirds to one-third, but you’re going to give up a third of that. We’re about returning the best profit on the asset of a film, and it’s hard to give that up. So, let’s see where it all plays out.

TWICE: What do you expect will happen?

Sanders: It’s really hard to handicap. I can’t tell, which side, if any, will win. Right now it’s like a Mexican standoff. If the consumer continues to support both formats, the industry will as well. It will be really pivotal what Toshiba does this fourth quarter in hardware. If they sell through everything they ship, and it’s a big number at the price points that are coming out, then I think [HD DVD] will be around for a long time. If they don’t, then it could go Blu-ray’s way. But Toshiba is getting very, very aggressive on pricing, which is putting pressure on Blu-ray player manufacturers to bring prices down. As a content company we just want more hardware in the homes. So what ever drives more hardware is good to see. Right now it looks like there is price pressure on both sides because there are two formats — more pressure than there would be if there was only one format. So, for our interests, more razors means we’ll sell more razor blades down the road.

TWICE: What will be the hot WHV high-definition releases for the holidays?

Sanders: We will have new versions of the complete “Harry Potter” catalog, I through IV, coming out this Christmas in high definition, we’ll have “Oceans 11” and “12” coming out in both high-def formats this fall with “Ocean’s 13”, and we’ll have popular TV series releases including “Nip Tuck” in high-definition this fall with more coming.

TWICE: How are you finding HD disc sales so far?

Sanders: “We have 60 titles released in Blu-ray already and we will be cranking that up further. We are just thrilled at how well they’ve been doing. Our top seller to date has been “300,” and before that it was “Planet Earth,” and before that was “The Departed.” We have had the top-selling HD title since we released “The Departed” at the Oscars.

By Christmas, we’ll probably do half a million units in high definition for “300,” so the marketplace is off and running. It’s becoming meaningful on a title basis.

TWICE: What reaction have you observed to the Web-enabled extras you’ve included in select HD DVDs and what are the plans to add similar capability to Blu-ray?

Sanders: I think with Blu-ray 2.0 coming this fall, we are going to see a lot more Web-enabled content coming from everyone. Consumers want it. We’ve had quite a number of downloads of ringtones on our “300” connected DVD and HD DVD. We don’t know where it’s going to go. We are kind of in the nascent stage of what is possible, but I think it’s going to be great. I think there is going to be a pent-up demand that is going to be very interesting to watch once [Web-enabled Blu-ray] products launch into the market.

TWICE: Will you differentiate the extras between the formats in any way?

Sanders: We plan to do exactly the same thing with both formats. The only thing we can’t do with Blu-ray yet is the connectivity

TWICE: Do you have any concerns about content security for either format as the market evolves?

Sanders: None. DRM is robust on both sides. There is no appreciable difference.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6477849.html

I think it's telling that he mentions Blu-ray 2.0 "coming this fall."

I wonder what its conspicuous absence says to WB now?:cool:

I think it's telling that he mentions Blu-ray 2.0 "coming this fall."

I wonder what its conspicuous absence says to WB now?:cool:

So he is wrong about BD 2.0. How does that affect his words on their position?

what the studios should do instead of taking moneyhats left and right is to lock sony and toshiba in a room and dont let them out before they've agreed on one hd format.

Could this "announcement" tomorrow also be what Penton Man was talking about after the Paramount announcement when he said all the HD DVD guys laughing now will have their day come?

I give the TW going BRD exclusive no creedance whatsoever.If this WERE true, i seriously doubt they would have been 1.consistantly still announcing new HD DV's which they have continued to do,2.They have (or had)Total HD in the works and likely would go that route over going exclusive just yet.3.The BRD consortium would be trumpeting the fact from the highest tower in the land by now.4. With Walmart's $200 HD DVD player soon to be hitting the shelves and Paramount just going HD DVD exclusive, any studio not currently supporting both formats would be very unwise to decide to commit to only BRD.5.The PS3 is a nonissue, period.With more and more video game developers deciding to stop,seriously cut back, or totally stop game development for it, it will likely stay 3rd in the console race for quite awhile if not permantly and eventually the market for it will cease to grow at any significant rate.If more and better games that are easier and ALOT cheaper to develop can be had elsewhere, then that's where people are going to go.Sales already reflect this.

The big change is going to come about 2009 when the US goes totally HD broadcast.BY then Cable and Satellite will be mostly if not all HD and that's when the average American NOT interested overly in HD will finally go out and upgrade to HDTV and likely want an HD media player to replce their DVD players so they can watch their movies with the same kind of picture quality that their new TV's will be providing them.Converter boxes will be a choice only for a vast minority.Imo then and only then will one format win over the other.It's also quite possible that neither will win and both be defeated by permanant storage device VOD devices.

I would love it if they announced that all their HD movies will only be released on TotalHD discs from now on.

What ever happened to those? Didn't Warner say the were coming in 2008?

what the studios should do instead of taking moneyhats left and right is to lock sony and toshiba in a room and dont let them out before they've agreed on one hd format.

A bit late for that now.. They should have done this two years ago.

Tes - 2009 is Digital broadcast - not HD broadcast - only thing that changes is no more Analog for local channels - must be Digital - nothing to do with HD or HDTV.

I would love it if they announced that all their HD movies will only be released on TotalHD discs from now on.

What ever happened to those? Didn't Warner say the were coming in 2008?

You mean the Glu-ray? That was Nickerson's brainchild. Terrible idea. Shelved.

Tes - 2009 is Digital broadcast - not HD broadcast - only thing that changes is no more Analog for local channels - must be Digital - nothing to do with HD or HDTV.

A lot of folks get this wrong. For those with cable or sat boxes the 2009 changeover will mean nothing. Sorry for the OT

Back on topic. Does anyone think this announcment may not have anything to do with HD media?

what the studios should do instead of taking moneyhats left and right is to lock sony and toshiba in a room and dont let them out before they've agreed on one hd format.

Hear hear!

It's never to late. A unified format would end all this sorrow once and for all. I cannot understand why there are so many fanboys on both sides and no one working for a unified HD format. I would easily buy a third player if they could just lay down their posturing and commit to the customer for once!!!

You mean the Glu-ray?

LOL

So he is wrong about BD 2.0. How does that affect his words on their position?

It means BRD can't take advantage of all the interactivity and extras that WB offers on films like BB and may impact their thinking about the viability of the format.

Hear hear!Other than dual format players, any unified format leaves one or the other format dead.

Back on topic. Does anyone think this announcment may not have anything to do with HD media? Possible.

But we have 3 pieces of info.

1. Silverberg says "but now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide — so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter.”

2. Kosty says he's been notified that Warner would make a major announcement tomorrow.

3. Warner's renewal is up at the BDA on the 31st. WHERE DID THIS INFO COME FROM, ANYWAY?

Some facts for this rumor:

1. There are still 20 HD DVD exclusive titles from WB.

2. There is a WB title packed into the A3 box (300)

3. At this time there are no BD Profile 1.1/2.0 players or movies

4. The price disparagement between the lowest HD DVD SAL player and the lowest BD SAL player is $198 versus $449 - a more than 100% difference.

5. ALL the major retailers are carrying the A2 and A3 with the exception of Target and BJ's Wholesale Club.

Other than dual format players, any unified format leaves one or the other format dead.

Possible.

But we have 3 pieces of info.

1. Silverberg says "but now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide — so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter.”

2. Kosty says he's been notified that Warner would make a major announcement tomorrow.

3. Warner's renewal is up at the BDA on the 31st. WHERE DID THIS INFO COME FROM, ANYWAY?


#3 is pretty common knowledge.

#3 is pretty common knowledge.

Link?

Not that I don't belive you, but there are lots of "common knowledge" that just are flat out wrong.

What time on the 31st? Id like a front row seat :D

You mean the Glu-ray? That was Nickerson's brainchild. Terrible idea. Shelved.


I forgot my /Sarcasm tags. I actually agree with you on this one!:D

Link?

Not that I don't belive you, but there are lots of "common knowledge" that just are flat out wrong.

I don't know how to link stuff. Kosty and rdjam probably can. It was also in that "other" eye interview with the sales reps that was closed down.

I think it's a small sum like $40,000 to belong. It expires tomorrow.

I don't know how to link stuff. Kosty and rdjam probably can. It was also in that "other" eye interview with the sales reps that was closed down.

I think it's a small sum like $40,000 to belong. It expires tomorrow.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929319

If this speculation is going on about the 30th (or 31st) being the end of the contract, and the 31st having a press conference, there is one thing that pops into my head.

I thought someone stated that the contract ends on the 30th (31st) for BD. Does the contract end for HD DVD as well? If so, then they could make a decision to support one or the other. But if they have a contract with HD DVD that doesn't end on this date, then it may not even deal with any of this at all.

I'm not stating anything as fact here BTW.

I still think it would be highly unlikely that WB would make a decision this early into the holiday shopping season.

On the other hand, they have access to a lot of info that we don't have access to, like how many orders Wal-Mart, Sears, etc, have made for HD DVD players for Q4. They might just like the demographics a lot better.

The recent price cut from Sony for the PS3 does smell a bit of desperation and I'm sure that Warner and other studio heads realize that without the PS3 BD would have been killed by now.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929319

Yep: EyeCrave.

Here’s my guess:

Warner Bros: “Guys, we have a press conference setup for 2:00 PM, have your final bids submitted by noon.”

:D

I still think it would be highly unlikely that WB would make a decision this early into the holiday shopping season.

On the other hand, they have access to a lot of info that we don't have access to, like how many orders Wal-Mart, Sears, etc, have made for HD DVD players for Q4. They might just like the demographics a lot better.

The recent price cut from Sony for the PS3 does smell a bit of desperation and I'm sure that Warner and other studio heads realize that without the PS3 BD would have been killed by now.

:confused:

And slash and burn prices on HD DVD players don't look a bit desperate?:rolleyes:

Here's why I think it can be (but doesn't have to be) to announce HD DVD exclusivity, and logically can't be (but could be) to announce BRD exclusivity:

Wal-Mart. Purveyor of 40% of the DVDs sold in the U.S. and home to the $198 Toshiba HD DVD player.

Does anyone think WB didn't sit down and talk to Wally World about all this?

:confused:

And slash and burn prices on HD DVD players don't look a bit desperate?:rolleyes:

HD DVD price cuts are being done to spur mass adoption of movie players.

PS3 price cuts are being done because they are currently in 3rd place in the console wars and Sony doesn't want to lose out on their extremely lucrative gaming business.

That's how I see it anyway. It's nice that the PS3 plays Blu-ray discs and it's certainly given the format a shot in the arm. Long term HDM adoption will not depend on the success of a $400-$500 game console though.

Here’s my guess:

Warner Bros: “Guys, we have a press conference setup for 2:00 PM, have your final bids submitted by noon.”

:D

That quote needs to enshrined in the Quote hall of fame.

I do have a couple of thoughts though. Maybe they will take no money because of the kind of press that Paramount got for what was no more than a routine business deal to them. That would also send a clear msg that this is for real business or technical reasons.

Let's also remember that it is Warner that said they won't let this be decided by a game machine. Warner also said that the people won't decide this so we will (my paraphrase). That tells me that sales will not be the deciding factor

Wow, this could go either way, tomorrow will be interesting. If they are going to pick a side it makes sense to do it now rather than after the holiday season. Any sales lost to one side now will be made back eventually if an eventual winner is chosen sooner. It's not like they are making huge money on HDM at this point, so losing 60% or 40% of HDM sales over a few months isn't going to make a difference on their bottom line.

I still think it would be highly unlikely that WB would make a decision this early into the holiday shopping season.

On the other hand, they have access to a lot of info that we don't have access to, like how many orders Wal-Mart, Sears, etc, have made for HD DVD players for Q4. They might just like the demographics a lot better.

The recent price cut from Sony for the PS3 does smell a bit of desperation and I'm sure that Warner and other studio heads realize that without the PS3 BD would have been killed by now.

Isn't the PS3 at 1.8 million now? With the popularity of the Wii and the new killer games for the XBox 360, how many can they realistically sell in the next two months?

I also think a lot of financial support deals for players and disc replication are ending--does Sony have the cash to keep propping the others up?

Yep: EyeCrave.I wonder where they got that date (10/31/07) from? I thought someone scooped it off blu-raydisc.com.

That might be a guess.

Click! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12056872#post12056872)

Another article has surfaced today regarding yesterday's blu-ray event.

Isn't the PS3 at 1.8 million now? With the popularity of the Wii and the new killer games for the XBox 360, how many can they realistically sell in the next two months?

I also think a lot of financial support deals for players and disc replication are ending--does Sony have the cash to keep propping the others up?

brief gaming discussion as it pertains to format war

I think that the PS3 passed the 2M mark and with the new, lower, $399 retail price they will sell another 1M or more over the next 60 days.

However, this is still going to put them solidly in 3rd place for the forseeable future. MS sold something like 600K 360's this month because of the Halo launch and we still haven't seen what they really have planned for the holidays.

There's no question that Sony has made a lot of broken promises based on how well the PS3 was supposed to perform.

HD DVD was supposed to be crushed by this time, with 4-1 (BDA) or 10-1 (Fox) sales depending on who you believe.

HD DVD price cuts are being done to spur mass adoption of movie players.

PS3 price cuts are being done because they are currently in 3rd place in the console wars and Sony doesn't want to lose out on their extremely lucrative gaming business.

That's how I see it anyway. It's nice that the PS3 plays Blu-ray discs and it's certainly given the format a shot in the arm. Long term HDM adoption will not depend on the success of a $400-$500 game console though.

two very good points. My guess is it's neither will be exclusive come tomorrow.

two very good points. My guess is it's neither will be exclusive come tomorrow.


It is highly likely that Warner will hold off on making a decision but WILL drop one format by CES 2008.

Someone else made a very good point though. Warner might feel that they need to drive sales in one direction or the other for the holiday season, so that fewer buyers pick the "wrong" format (at least from their perspective) and waste their money.

I don't think that Warner's ultimate decision is going to be based on current sales or on incentives. I think that they are looking at the long term and I'm not sure if they like the looks of the continued failure of BD to get their newer profile players out OR to get player prices into the same $169 range that HD DVD will hit this holiday season.

On Oct 31st Warner will report they will remain committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD...Nuff said! Nothing will change! ;)

On Oct 31st Warner will report they will remain committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD...Nuff said! Nothing will change! ;)

I tend to agree with you. They may have some other announcements though with release schedules or such. We will know tomorrow.

I agree, this is much to do about nothing.

I have to admit though, WB calling a press conference for it seems a bit dramatic.

On Oct 31st Warner will report they will remain committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD...Nuff said! Nothing will change! ;)

they need a PR for that?

If im not mistaken any time a studio needs to reitierate their current stance they do so quickly, quietly.....not a full blown PR...on the day their contract is set to renew, a day after a BD event where the VP of HD makes VERY positive BD comments trumpeting the sales and announcing the evaluation of current stances.

On Oct 31st Warner will report they will remain committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD...Nuff said! Nothing will change! ;)

I agree. I think they want to knock down the rumors about going exclusive either way -- rumors which could impact holiday sales.

I agree. I think they want to knock down the rumors about going exclusive either way -- rumors which could impact holiday sales.

They did that just a few weeks ago though.

So how about a little spin control concerning the VP of WHV and how he either was misquoted - or shot his mouth off and let everyone peek into the bag?

Quote "So how about a little spin control concerning the VP of WHV and how he either was misquoted - or shot his mouth off and let everyone peak into the bag?"

I don't understand that statement, care to re-phrase it?

Quote "So how about a little spin control concerning the VP of WHV and how he either was misquoted - or shot his mouth off and let everyone peak into the bag?"

I don't understand that statement, care to re-phrase it?

Sure - be happy to Brian.:)

The article that quoted the VP of WHV saying something to the tune of - "we support BD"

But the way it was shown and worded was not 100% crystal clear.

Now ALL the CE releated webites are discussing this WB going exclusive issue.

My speculation is that maybe WHV wants to clarify their stance on what the President of WHV said on 9/21 in the TWICE interview . . .

Or - that the VP said something he was not supposed to say due to negioations with both BD and HD DVD.

What an utter mess.

Warner needs to get on with it.

From another article posted above:
Blu-ray Ad Campaign Airs
by Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 10/30/2007 6:37:00 AM

Companies backing the project include hardware manufacturers Sony, Panasonic and Philips, and Blu-ray-backing studios include Walt Disney Studio Home Entertainment, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment, Lions Gate and Warner Home Video.
The BDA spinmeisters are at it again. The marketing campaign is being pushed by the manufacturers. The studios are little more than a bullet listing as pointed out by another astute forum member and I tend to agree with this interpretation. At the time the article was printed, Warner was still on board...but who knows what the following day holds.

My speculation is that maybe WHV wants to clarify their stance on what the President of WHV said on 9/21 in the TWICE interview . . .

Or - that the VP said something he was not supposed to say due to negioations with both BD and HD DVD.

I agree. All he did was raise the rumor dust at a time when Warner wanted to concentrate on ramping up for sales of both formats. Time to sweep up after the vice-president.

Edit to add: Or his statements might have riled and rankled both Toshiba and Wal-Mart, and a press release became necessary to prevent any misunderstanding.

On Oct 31st Warner will report they will remain committed to Blu-ray & HD DVD...Nuff said! Nothing will change! ;)

Better yet, at the end of the press conference the WHV spokesperson will say: 'AND THE HIGH-DEFINITION FORMAT THAT WARNER WILL SUPPORT EXCLUSIVELY BEGINNING IMMEDIATELY IS...'

(cut to black... 10 seconds of silence... roll credits). :D

Better yet, at the end of the press conference the WHV spokesperson will say: 'AND THE HIGH-DEFINITION FORMAT THAT WARNER WILL SUPPORT EXCLUSIVELY BEGINNING IMMEDIATELY IS...'

(cut to black... 10 seconds of silence... roll credits). :D

Or a Blu-ray or HD-DVD supporter comes out of the audience and wacks him.:D

I really don't expect any significant announcement form warner tomorrow. An announcement will probably come in January.

I agree. All he did was raise the rumor dust at a time when Warner wanted to concentrate on ramping up for sales of both formats. Time to sweep up after the president.

WHV has been having an awful time implementing their new PIC system. Their shipments are all messed up. They are going into their highest sales period (why they decided to do this change now as opposed till after theNew year is beyond me - had to do with money.) with a system that is creating tons of extra work for employees who can only do so much.

The last thing they really need (IMO) is pressure from the media to discuss the format war and their position.

"Companies backing the project include hardware manufacturers Sony, Panasonic and Philips, and Blu-ray-backing studios include Walt Disney Studio Home Entertainment, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment, Lions Gate and Warner Home Video. "

That is the funniest Blu FUD I've ever seen. That substitution of "e" for "ing" which the skim reader may think they see is the equivalent of keyword spamming a search engine or an Ebay listing.

The best thing about being a red pill taker though is that I really feel like I've got very little to lose. If Warners go Blu then one day I might buy some kind of Blu device. Big deal. If they go Red, I might actually get a proper player (at a very attractive price) rather than struggling with an HTPC/360 Drive setup.

That's why Bluboys get so foamed up about anything like this. They've got used to "winning" because the BDA told them they were.

Could I add "Hal-blu-een" to the possible headlines for tomorrow too. Though it would be more like Christmas for the movie lover.

WHV has been having an awful time implementing their new PIC system. Their shipments are all messed up. They are going into their highest sales period (why they decided to do this change now as opposed till after theNew year is beyond me - had to do with money.) with a system that is creating tons of extra work for employees who can only do so much.

The last thing they really need (IMO) is pressure from the media to discuss the format war and their position.

Exactly. They need to announce that nothing has changed. What the VP said only added to their current problems.

I agree. All he did was raise the rumor dust at a time when Warner wanted to concentrate on ramping up for sales of both formats. Time to sweep up after the vice-president.

Edit to add: Or his statements might have riled and rankled both Toshiba and Wal-Mart, and a press release became necessary to prevent any misunderstanding.

But why the timing, then?

WHY wait until October 31st--which just "happens" to coincide with the BD thing then?

So tell me what has happened EVERYTIME HD DVD has scored a goal in the format war?

Answer - the BDA responds immediately.

Those sub $200 HD DVD players are IMO, scaring the bejeezes out of them because the price disparagement is so large.

ACTION: The BDA is doing something to try to counter act this event.

REMEMBER that the same day of the Paramount announcement - Fox releeased their 2007 schedule. And many sites said that it took the announcement to get this info out of Fox - who at the time was MIA as far as releases. . . . maybe to say; " No defection from Fox"

You're all wrong...they're announcing exclusivity to HD VMD!!! :D

That is the funniest Blu FUD I've ever seen. That substitution of "e" for "ing" which the skim reader may think they see is the equivalent of keyword spamming a search engine or an Ebay listing.Next paragraph of the article:

Companies backing the project include hardware manufacturers Sony, Panasonic and Philips, and Blu-ray-backing studios include Walt Disney Studio Home Entertainment, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment, Lions Gate and Warner Home Video.

“It was agreed that we can get a bigger and better message out there if we all do this together,” Marty told TWICE, explaining the collaboration between studios and manufacturers. He added that some companies were invited to participate but opted out at this time.Some companies...Warner and New Line?

The BDA spinmeisters are at it again. The marketing campaign is being pushed by the manufacturers. The studios are little more than a bullet listing as pointed out by another astute forum member and I tend to agree with this interpretation. At the time the article was printed, Warner was still on board...but who knows what the following day holds.

From the first paragraph of the article written by an independent writer for an independent website (ie. not a BDA or Sony press release).

Sensing the need to step up promotional efforts behind the Blu-ray Disc format heading into the critical holiday selling season, a group of hardware manufacturers and studios have pooled their resources on a “multimillion-dollar” television, print and online advertising campaign, billed as the largest for the format so far.

Next paragraph of the article:

Some companies...Warner and New Line?

Hmmm... ARE there any others who could have opted out? (I'm asking honestly, I have the memory of a fruit fly.)

Whelp, we shall see what happens. I honestly don't think too much is going to happen here, but what do I know. Kosty says it's not bad for HD-DVD. He's pretty accurate in the past so why not now?

My guess? A list of new titles and maybe the first TotalHD stuff?? Like LOTR or something. We haven't heard about either one of those in a while...

Whelp, we shall see what happens. I honestly don't think too much is going to happen here, but what do I know. Kosty says it's not bad for HD-DVD. He's pretty accurate in the past so why not now?

My guess? A list of new titles and maybe the first TotalHD stuff?? Like LOTR or something. We haven't heard about either one of those in a while...

9/21/07 - President of WHV is being interviewed:

TWICE: What is the status of your plans for TotalHD?

Sanders: We’re concerned that as the only one publishing on it, it would be hard to make it go. We’re still looking at, though. We’re still talking to retail, but it’s kind of on hold right now.

TWICE: With plans for THD on hold, what do you think about the new dual-format players on the market?

Sanders: I’m excited about dual-format players. It takes out that worry about picking the wrong format, and with the studios lining up on one or the other format it’s kind of a nice solution, but until the price points come down — they are still around $1,000 — it’s not going to be a mass product. As more and more drives go into computers for both formats, I think that will drive the price down for drives going into set tops.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6477849.html