So there is no chance whatsoever that Toshiba has/had 300,000+ A2's here in the USA for distribution?

Just about as many players ready for distribution that have already been sold?

Umm ok?

I guess I don't have any proof otherwise, so I can just speculate..........


EVERYONE is doin it!!!

Joking? No. I was serious. Did that bother you?:confused:

So you didn't answer my question . . . how many hours does it take to finish the average game?

Oh when you answer that question would you please answer this one . . .

How much does a PS3 BD based game cost? MSRP will do it.

I can answer those questions

average game length is 8-12 hours
MSRP on PS3 titles is $60

You are doubting the NPD hardware numbers? :eek:

I'm assuming she is using those figures.

I guess you can pick any number you want out of the sky, but she has consistently used the NPD numbers even though she actually knows the exact Toshiba produced and ship to the channel numbers.

Didn't hear you complaining about them when Blu-ray lead briefly during the summer. :rolleyes:

We have no idea if she is quoting since inception or year to date numbers.

And is she counting laptops?


She said the format also experienced a significant unit upturn with sales of HD DVD-enabled PC laptops.

Well, there's speculation about pretty much everything in this forum - that doesn't mean it's accurate.

Hence, "make of it what you will."

I was trying to help the guy out by giving him some info. It's up to him to take it from there, but thank you for your concern.

She never does, she always refers to set top boxes and when she says public numbers they are alway based on monthly and accumulated NPD figures if she does not state the source.

insiders have said that for about a week.

Blu-ray insiders...that's some good old damage control ;)

Blu-ray insiders...that's some good old damage control ;)

yah your hd dvd insiders sure a smart too.....

So there is no chance whatsoever that Toshiba has/had 300,000+ A2's here in the USA for distribution?

I have no idea how many they have.

I'm simply stating that there obviously isn't an unlimited supply, since its replacement is already out. For all I know though, there may be plenty.


Maybe I'm stumbling over the usage of the term, but look at the scenario. A new model has been created that is intended to replace last year's model. Last year's model is now being price reduced versus the new model. That is the definition of 'clearance', regardless of how many may or may not be in distribution.

I guess some people are assuming a negative connotation for the term; that wasn't my intent.

Just about as many players ready for distribution that have already been sold?

Umm ok?

I guess I don't have any proof otherwise, so I can just speculate..........


EVERYONE is doin it!!!

But my speculation is based on some fact. The President of Toshiba lowered the goal in NA from 1.8 million to 1 million HD DVD players sold. Sold may mean shipped - it usually does.

How long does a Super Sized Ocean Freighter take to go from Asia to LA or NJ? It can't go through the Panama Canal - too big.

We are almost 3 weeks from Black Friday. Anything that is going to be sold by retailers better be here now or arriving in the next few days.

But my speculation is based on some fact. The President of Toshiba lowered the goal in NA from 1.8 million to 1 million HD DVD players sold. Sold may mean shipped - it usually does.

How long does a Super Sized Ocean Freighter take to go from Asia to LA or NJ? It can't go through the Panama Canal - too big.

We are almost 3 weeks from Black Friday. Anything that is going to be sold by retailers better be here now or arriving in the next few days.

So your 300k number is more valid because you are basing on a number (goal) that has been changed 3 times?

Excuse me if I just wait until the end of December for the numbers then. :)

Joking? No. I was serious. Did that bother you?:confused:

So you didn't answer my question . . . how many hours does it take to finish the average game?


Well, that depends on the genre if you want some generalizations. Though even within a given genre, the average (for a given player) duration varies pretty dramatically for any given title.


Oh when you answer that question would you please answer this one . . .

How much does a PS3 BD based game cost? MSRP will do it.

If your point is to show that many PS3 owners will not be purchasing the same amount of movie titles as a standalone owner ... you aren't going to get an argument out of me.


However, you seem to be implying that there similarly aren't many gamers that DO in fact purchase plenty of movie titles. I'm quite sure there are plenty that purchase more than most people here.

Case and point ... why don't you take a look at the format war thread over at neoGaf (a gaming forum). Take special note that the thread is over 17 THOUSAND 500 posts.

Don't worry, the thread ain't hard to find. Its usually on page 1 of the OT section. :p

I have no idea how many they have.

I'm just stating there obviously isn't some unlimited supply, since its replacement is already out. For all I know though, there may be plenty.


Maybe I'm stumbling over the usage of term, but look at the scenario. A new model has been created that is intended to replace last years model. Last year's model is now being price reduced versus the new model. That is the definition of 'clearance', regardless of how many may or may not be in distribution.

I guess some people are assuming a negative connotation for the term; that wasn't my intent.

So Wal-mart has changed it's name to Odd Lot? Since when did WM buy and sell closeouts? For their brand new totally made over CE department? They were #4 - they are now #2 behind BB. Analysists forecast by 1/1/08 WM will be the #1 CE reseller.

They are bringing in name brands to sell like Sony LCD's. And ztoshiba HD DVD players. They could have brought in Venturer who just happens via their parent, to make the WM Durabrand . . . but they didn't did they? So far Melissa O'Brien was totally truthful about the Venturer not being sold at WM

A new model has been created that is intended to replace last years model. Last year's model is now being price reduced versus the new model.Toshiba is so big that they can have multiple factories. One making a tried and true model. Another making a newer design model. The big deal is if any parts are obsolete -- if not, then no problem making the older design -- given that you are a big company.

I can answer those questions

average game length is 8-12 hours
MSRP on PS3 titles is $60

So you could see the point of view that a game will demand more of your time than a movie. And it definitely gets much more of your money. People's disposable cash is always an issue when it comes to these things. Very few have unlimited budgets.

FOR INSTANCE . . . Hmmmm . . . "buy that XYZ game . . or buy 2 movies . . I got $50 to spend." Can't do both.

So Wal-mart has changed it's name to Odd Lot? Since when did WM buy and sell closeouts? For their brand new totally made over CE department? They were #4 - they are now #2 behind BB. Analysists forecast by 1/1/08 WM will be the #1 CE reseller.


If there are enough, why wouldn't WM purchase what you are now calling a closeout? This isn't something where Toshiba has called it quits, and is dumping the format entirely.

Its simply the standard generational replacement of a CE device that happens ... in many cases every year.

Are you arguing that Toshiba has not in fact created a gen 3 unit intended to replace this model? Are you arguing Toshiba plans to continue producing the A2 for the forseeable future?


I'm really not in the mood to argue a semantics game, which it seems you are.

Oringally posted by Lee Stewart
So Wal-mart has changed it's name to Odd Lot? Since when did WM buy and sell closeouts?

C'mon Lee, you not naive enough to think Wal*Wart wouldn't pass up on a close out deal, are you? If they got the right price, of course they'd jump on it. All major chains do this...

As for keeping a line open to manufacture A2's when the A3's are on the street is just silly, why would you keep something in the marketplace that costs more to manufacture? That's assuming cost have gone down, as everyone wants to claim.

With all of the speculation that the average consumer is going jump on HD DVD becasue it's down to $199, guess what, the average consumer, as a whole, is about 1 Billion in the hold on their credit cards in the US, and isn't feeling too good about the status of the economy, and will likely be pulling back on their spending this 4th qauarted on frivilous expenses.

fitprod

There is only 50,000 of those 200 dollar A2's

As of May 31, 2007, there were 3366 Walmart stores in the USA. With an allocation of 20 units per store, that comes to 67320 units. Plus, units will be available online. Also, Walmart was quoted as saying the Toshiba players was not a limited offer. So much for your number.

I have no idea how many they have.

I'm simply stating that there obviously isn't an unlimited supply, since its replacement is already out. For all I know though, there may be plenty.


Maybe I'm stumbling over the usage of the term, but look at the scenario. A new model has been created that is intended to replace last year's model. Last year's model is now being price reduced versus the new model. That is the definition of 'clearance', regardless of how many may or may not be in distribution.

I guess some people are assuming a negative connotation for the term; that wasn't my intent. Its also possible that Wal-Mart negotiated for a fixed or minimum quantity of these months ago with a required delivery data and Toshiba kept production running or maintained or accumulated inventory to met the requirement.

Having Wal-Mart sell these HD A2s allow other retailers to sell the HD A3 at different prices for a while longer.

Toshiba is so big that they can have multiple factories. One making a tried and true model. Another making a newer design model. The big deal is if any parts are obsolete -- if not, then no problem making the older design -- given that you are a big company.


I'm well aware of Toshiba's manufacturing capabilities.

However, the reason for bringing out a new gen of players is not simply to add new capabilities at each given pricepoint. Generally, its also because the new gen of players are actually cheaper to produce, due to cheaper (price-wise) components, drive/mobo/etc redesign, etc.

If there are enough, why wouldn't WM purchase what you are now calling a closeout? This isn't something where Toshiba has called it quits, and is dumping the format entirely.

Its simply the standard generational replacement of a CE device that happens ... in many cases every year.

Are you arguing that Toshiba has not in fact created a gen 3 unit intended to replace this model? Are you arguing Toshiba plans to continue producing the A2 for the forseeable future?


I'm really not in the mood to argue a semantics game, which it seems you are.

Arguing? Is that what we are doing? I thought we were having a discussion.:confused:

The A2 is a gen2 player. the A3 is a gen3 player. Based on the goal of 1 million HD DVD player sold in NA by 12/31/07 - they have to sell more than 500,000. The more they make - the lower their component cost goes - economies of scale.

So how big was the production run for the A2? I don't know but I can guess - 750,000. It was Toshiba's plan all along to offer the A2 at a rock bottom price to beat BD. Remember the President said - "We will beat them on player price."

And CC is also selling the A2 for $198.

But Sears has chosen the A3 - identical to the A2 only 2 free movies in the box (and cheaper to build) and they are going to sell it at $169 for 7 hours.

So do you finally see what I am saying? Did I make my point(s) clear?

That would the NPD number for the category of high definition DVD set top units, ie dedicated standalone players not including any game consoles, like the PS3, or any device accessories like the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on drive.

I'm just assuming she's using the Sep NPD numbers.

In the past every time she has given market share it based on EOM NPD numbers, unless she says total units IIRC.

Are there any games that require the xbox hd-dvd add on or are these units for playing hd-dvd's only?

I wonder how many have sold?

Its also possible that Wal-Mart negotiated for a fixed or minimum quantity of these months ago with a required delivery data and Toshiba kept production running or maintained or accumulated inventory to met the requirement.

Having Wal-Mart sell these HD A2s allow other retailers to sell the HD A3 at different prices for a while longer.

I'm not sure where I argued otherwise? I didn't comment on that at all.


What I commented on is the idea that the A2 is going to be produced for the foreseeable future. I highly doubt that.

Merrick you are in for some dissapointing news tomorrow if you think Warner is going bluray exclusive.

I have NEVER said that I think that Warner will go blu exclusive tommorrow. I did say that evidence was there that suggests its possible.

Also, dont pretend like you really know what is going to happen tommorrow. You DONT.

This thread can be pure comedy at times!

Do people here really think that WB is going to make an announcement tomorrow re choosing a single format???

This thread can be pure comedy at times!

Do people here really think that WB is going to make an announcement tomorrow re choosing a single format???

Bluray.com is pure gold most of the time ;)

Arguing? Is that what we are doing? I thought we were having a discussion.:confused:


I'm saying you seem to be fixated on the term 'closeout'. You're taking some sort of negative connotation for it.


The A2 is a gen2 player. the A3 is a gen3 player. Based on the goal of 1 million HD DVD player sold in NA by 12/31/07 - they have to sell more than 500,000. The more they make - the lower their component cost goes - economies of scale.


Economies of scale don't function for an infinite time period. Nor does their cost savings graph linearly over time.

Redesigns are what are needed to continue cost savings. The very fact that the gen 3 players exist is proof of this. If it wasn't, why would Toshiba spend R&D to redesign their entire line if they can simply continue to produce their previous units at lower and lower prices?


So how big was the production run for the A2? I don't know but I can guess - 750,000. It was Toshiba's plan all along to offer the A2 at a rock bottom price to beat BD. Remember the President said - "We will beat them on player price."

And CC is also selling the A2 for $198.

But Sears has chosen the A3 - identical to the A2 only 2 free movies in the box (and cheaper to build) and they are going to sell it at $169 for 7 hours.

So do you finally see what I am saying? Did I make my point(s) clear?

Actually no ... you've confused me even more.

You just proved my point by stating the A3 is indeed cheaper to build. That's why the A2 is going to be discontinued.

This thread can be pure comedy at times!

BEST THREAD on the AVS HDSM Forum!:D

Do people here really think that WB is going to make an announcement tomorrow re choosing a single format???

Think? How about that old Dusty Springfield song . . .

Music Mistro!

"Wish-in . . . and Hope-in"

:D:D

C'mon Lee, you not naive enough to think Wal*Wart wouldn't pass up on a close out deal, are you? If they got the right price, of course they'd jump on it. All major chains do this...

As for keeping a line open to manufacture A2's when the A3's are on the street is just silly, why would you keep something in the marketplace that costs more to manufacture? That's assuming cost have gone down, as everyone wants to claim.

With all of the speculation that the average consumer is going jump on HD DVD becasue it's down to $199, guess what, the average consumer, as a whole, is about 1 Billion in the hold on their credit cards in the US, and isn't feeling too good about the status of the economy, and will likely be pulling back on their spending this 4th qauarted on frivilous expenses.

fitprodYou not naive enough to think Wal*Wart wouldn't ....negotiate to have required minimum on hand quantity and required delivery date for a major piece of CE equipment months in advance?

You know, actually have a plan?

A few months ago the HD A3 was not in production, so it would make sense that Toshiba would continue or reserve HD A2 production so that enough quantities were available for them to ship to Wal-Mart to fulfill the contract?

Toshiba then could have proceeded to shift production to the 3rd gen machines after it initial required quantity to be delivered was filled?

How difficult a concept is it to say that maybe Wal-Mart and Toshiba PLANNED this, instead of it being a last minute closeout deal that fits your meme about HD DVD players not selling up to expectations.

Heck, if thats the case, how about Blu-ray player sales, not meeting expectations?

The real advantage of the HD A3 is its cheaper to produce, not thats its that more functionally better than the HD A2.

Its not obsolete by any means.

Are there any games that require the xbox hd-dvd add on or are these units for playing hd-dvd's only?


no games


I wonder how many have sold?

last time I saw numbers, it was a bit over 100,000. The deals places like BB have had recently though have probably helped out a bit.

So you didn't answer my question . . . how many hours does it take to finish the average game?

It doesn't matter how long it takes. Everyone knows the PS3 has no games worth playing. The PS3's only real use is for playing movies. ;)

Bluray.com is pure gold most of the time ;)

Comment on your signature. I bet that is a hot topic (BD+) on Blu whatever love fest site.:D Are they really just tweaking it? I bet Fox loves this.

With all of the speculation that the average consumer is going jump on HD DVD becasue it's down to $199, guess what, the average consumer, as a whole, is about 1 Billion in the hold on their credit cards in the US, and isn't feeling too good about the status of the economy, and will likely be pulling back on their spending this 4th qauarted on frivilous expenses.

fitprod

And do what?

Buy a Blu-ray at twice the price?

I think your just proving that price does matter and people will be watching what they buy. Lets see $399 or $198, what will they do??

last time I saw numbers, it was a bit over 100,000. The deals places like BB have had recently though have probably helped out a bit.

Close.

http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=3C644C50F0DA47FDA581C56C5FDF5FC7&nm=Hi-Def+News&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=AC6291EF33C14D32889E9C55E986A7B2


Kevin Collins, Microsoft’s director of HD DVD evangelism, said the key to the war will be which side wins the dedicated set-top box battle. And with a $199 HD DVD player expected soon, half the price of the cheapest Blu-ray player, the PlayStation 3, Collins said HD DVD has the advantage.

Parsons disagreed.

“I think it’s erroneous to say think a cheap player is … going to cause a format to take off,” he said, adding that while the PS3 is primarily a gaming system, it is being used often for Blu-ray movies. “What ultimately causes a format to take off … is it’s still about the content.”

After Collins pointed out that Microsoft’s Xbox 360 has an HD DVD add-on, and said it was outselling Blu-ray set-tops boxes, Patrick Fitzgerald, EVP of worldwide sales, distribution, and trade marketing for Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, downplayed the rival next-generation gaming console.

I'm not sure where I argued otherwise? I didn't comment on that at all.


What I commented on is the idea that the A2 is going to be produced for the foreseeable future. I highly doubt that. I agree that its probable that all HD A2 production has/will be shifted to the cheaper 3rd gen production. But like I said , HD A2 production may have carried on after the 3rd gen announcements and those units may have been stockpiled or designated all along to fulfill an agreement with Wal-Mart.

A single large production facility in mainland China could have been making 100,000 to 200,000 units per month at full capacity.

Thats a possible 600,000 to 1,200,000 unit production of all second generation types in the first half of the year.

I'm saying you seem to be fixated on the term 'closeout'. You're taking some sort of negative connotation for it.

You are absolutely right. How about "End of production run?"

Economies of scale don't function for an infinite time period. Nor does their cost savings graph linearly over time.

You don't believe that 750K wouldn't qualify for economies of scale for pricing on the NEC SoC? Or the HDMI chip? Or the Laser pickup and laser drive IC? When other companies are ordering 20,000 or 30,000?

Redesigns are what are needed to continue cost savings. The very fact that the gen 3 players exist is proof of this. If it wasn't, why would Toshiba spend R&D to redesign their entire line if they can simply continue to produce their previous units at lower and lower prices?

The A2 was a MASSIVE redesign over the A1. The A3 is a "fine tuning" redesign over the A2. The basic components are almost the same - but the mother board is smaller so there are fewer LSI's on it. But some just have to be there no matter what.


Actually no ... you've confused me even more.

You just proved my point by stating the A3 is indeed cheaper to build. That's why the A2 is going to be discontinued.

Yes - but it is being sold as a new player. And it doesn't do anything more or less than the A3.

Did you know that they are still making the XA2? Still have more orders than players. Even with the A35.

Haha wait a sec. Toshiba is counting laptops with HD-DVD players in the numbers for players, but not PS3s?

To use a phrase someone else on this topic did, how often does one actually watch a movie on a computer as opposed to doing actual computer ****?

You spin me right round, baby
right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
You spin me right round, baby

This was already answered on post #1008.

and you wasted all that time typing......bummer!

Read a few posts BEFORE YOU post!

Over 200,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD drives have been sold.

no games

last time I saw numbers, it was a bit over 100,000. The deals places like BB have had recently though have probably helped out a bit.

May 2007 - 144,000 sold AO's.

Back To The Rumor!

Mark has his finger on the "lock" button:(

If the PS3 is such a wonderful player, why doesn't Sony simply put it in a standard dvd box and sell it as such for the same price? They then could sell both and appeal to non-gamers as well as gamers. Blu-Ray fans would probably even buy both.

But, instead they make an inferior product and sell it for 2-3 times as much.

Not to difficult to figure out their motives here.

fafner

Let's Forget about the issue of neutrality for WB. Just make believe a little jack-o-lantern just wispered in your ear . . . " Pssst . . .The announcement has nothing to do with format war status."

So now what could it be?

Best guess I have seen? Title announcements - new for both formats with some of the BD held backs being announced for Q1

This was already answered on post #1008.

and you wasted all that time typing......bummer!

Read a few posts BEFORE YOU post!

Thank you for the advice kind sir. Fortunately it took me all of 3 seconds to copy and paste what I posted anyways, so no harm done.

In any event what I wrote stands. So there is an upswing of interest due to HD-DVD laptops (counted on NPD or not), that's great. I know I'm ready to buy a new computer just to get an HD-DVD drive that I can buy for peanuts down at Walmart.

Happy Halloween Everyone!

Rumor Thread Posters!

Not to difficult to figure out their motives here.

Profit. Companies like to make a profit. What exactly do you think Toshiba's motives are?

You are absolutely right. How about "End of production run?"


Closeout - noun:
a sale intended to dispose of all remaining stock


The fact that you want to use another term shows that you are fixated on its connotation :p That doesn't make the term any less accurate.


You don't believe that 750K wouldn't qualify for economies of scale for pricing on the NEC SoC? Or the HDMI chip? Or the Laser pickup and laser drive IC? When other companies are ordering 20,000 or 30,000?


I'm sure it is helping for some of the parts ... though HDMI, no. They are used in DVD players, etc. I'm guessing they have been pretty price-stable for a while.

That isn't my point though. Yes, there is some economy of scale. Obviously it ain't enough however, otherwise they wouldn't have already brought out gen 3.


The A2 was a MASSIVE redesign over the A1. The A3 is a "fine tuning" redesign over the A2. The basic components are almost the same - but the mother board is smaller so there are fewer LSI's on it. But some just have to be there no matter what.


While the redesign isn't as 'massive', you seem to be implying there aren't significant changes from a fabing, etc. point-of-view ... and with that, a cost point-of-view.

The gen 1 models were basically PC's. Obviously gen 2 was a huge change. That said, gen 2 was also the first generation of players using dedicated ASICs, etc. for HD-DVD media usage.

Gen 3 is therefore the first major revision of dedicated HD-DVD players. It isn't a stretch to assume there were some pretty significant cost-reductions.



Yes - but it is being sold as a new player. And it doesn't do anything more or less than the A3.


Yes, it is being sold as a new player. Its the current model. As for doing more? It's smaller ... and that's due to major reworkings of the design. Since when do replacement models always add more features? They don't ... they come out for cost reasons ... as I've been arguing the entire time.


Did you know that they are still making the XA2? Still have more orders than players. Even with the A35.

The XA2 is still being produced because they haven't created a replacement for it yet. All the current gen 3 models are based on the same platform, and it isn't as good as the XA2. The de-interlacing is pretty much broken. XA2 is still the top-level offering by Toshiba.

LOOK! . . The Search Is Over! We Finally Found Nemo!:D

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/2887632ifoundnemo.jpg

Profit. Companies like to make a profit. What exactly do you think Toshiba's motives are?
Profit :D :D :D



http://www.twice.com/article/CA6495604.html

...Toshiba reported a 17 percent gain in net sales, to $32.1 billion, in its fiscal first half compared with the same time last year, and net income increased more than seven times that of last year’s first half, to $397 million.

Digital products — which includes PC, CE categories HDTV and HD DVD, mobile phone and business products — posted a 9 percent gain in sales to $12.5 billion and reversed last year’s loss to a $2.6 million operating profit. The company noted that TVs still had to “bear the brunt of fast declining sales prices, particularly in the U.S. and Europe.” I guess that massive HD DVD player subsidy thing and selling them at a massive loss per unit meme should die any time now? :D

If the PS3 is such a wonderful player, why doesn't Sony simply put it in a standard dvd box and sell it as such for the same price? They then could sell both and appeal to non-gamers as well as gamers. Blu-Ray fans would probably even buy both.

But, instead they make an inferior product and sell it for 2-3 times as much.

Not to difficult to figure out their motives here.

fafner

That's a good question. Sony has always planned on using CELL for other CE devices (crap, Toshiba is using it for other devices).

That said, the current iteration of CELL runs a bit warm. Therefore, it needs significant cooling which means, relatively large-formfactor, and noise.

The 65nm CELL's are just now hitting with PS3's new revision. It's possible we may see something using these new versions of CELL. That, or maybe they will wait for 45nm.

Let's Forget about the issue of neutrality for WB. Just make believe a little jack-o-lantern just wispered in your ear . . . " Pssst . . .The announcement has nothing to do with format war status."

So now what could it be?

Best guess I have seen? Title announcements - new for both formats with some of the BD held backs being announced for Q1


That wouldn't surprise me. I think a lot of people are setting themselves up for some major disappointment.

But this is the internet ... so I guess it's not unlike any other day.

That's a good question. Sony has always planned on using CELL for other CE devices (crap, Toshiba is using it for other devices).

That said, the current iteration of CELL runs a bit warm. Therefore, it needs significant cooling which means, relatively large-formfactor, and noise.

The 65nm CELL's are just now hitting with PS3's new revision. It's possible we may see something using these new versions of CELL. That, or maybe they will wait for 45nm.

Just announced - the 40GB PS3 will use the 65nm Cell processor. Cuts the power usage to 135 watts. Used to be 200 watts.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11636.cfm

C'mon Lee, you not naive enough to think Wal*Wart wouldn't pass up on a close out deal, are you? If they got the right price, of course they'd jump on it. All major chains do this...

As for keeping a line open to manufacture A2's when the A3's are on the street is just silly, why would you keep something in the marketplace that costs more to manufacture? That's assuming cost have gone down, as everyone wants to claim.

With all of the speculation that the average consumer is going jump on HD DVD becasue it's down to $199, guess what, the average consumer, as a whole, is about 1 Billion in the hold on their credit cards in the US, and isn't feeling too good about the status of the economy, and will likely be pulling back on their spending this 4th qauarted on frivilous expenses.

fitprod

Please, explain the PS2 and PS3 to us in plain terms so we can try to understand what your saying.

The PS3 has been out for a year now yet they still seem to be still building PS2's. Is that only because they sell twice as many as their premier "new" model.

If the economy is in such bad shape, as you say, how on earth can the BDA sell a single player since they are twice as expensive as the Toshiba. Please, I'm trying to understand here.

Profit :D :D :D

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6495604.html

Digital products — which includes PC, CE categories HDTV and HD DVD, mobile phone and business products — posted a 9 percent gain in sales to $12.5 billion and reversed last year’s loss to a $2.6 million operating profit. The company noted that TVs still had to “bear the brunt of fast declining sales prices, particularly in the U.S. and Europe.”



I'm not sure how that increase ='s Toshiba not taking loses on HD-DVD. We simply don't know, unless a better breakdown is available. It's a consolidated value incorporating basically every CE device they make :p

Just announced - the 40GB PS3 will use the 65nm Cell processor. Cuts the power usage to 135 watts. Used to be 200 watts.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11636.cfm

errrr ... that's what I was referring to ;)


"The 65nm CELL's are just now hitting with PS3's new revision"

Please, explain the PS2 and PS3 to us in plain terms so we can try to understand what your saying.

The PS3 has been out for a year now yet they still seem to be still building PS2's. Is that only because they sell twice as many as their premier "new" model.

If the economy is in such bad shape, as you say, how on earth can the BDA sell a single player since they are twice as expensive as the Toshiba. Please, I'm trying to understand here.

I'm not sure I'm following you? Are you trying to argue that continued PS2 production is evidence as to why the A2's will supposedly continue to have economy-of-scale?

If so, you are way off base.

Please, explain the PS2 and PS3 to us in plain terms so we can try to understand what your saying.

The PS3 has been out for a year now yet they still seem to be still building PS2's. Is that only because they sell twice as many as their premier "new" model.

If the economy is in such bad shape, as you say, how on earth can the BDA sell a single player since they are twice as expensive as the Toshiba. Please, I'm trying to understand here.

Bingo!

fafner

I'm not sure I'm following you? Are you trying to argue that continued PS2 production is evidence as to why the A2's will supposedly continue to have economy-of-scale?

If so, you are way off base.

My point is rather obvious, I thought. Just because a new player is released doesn't mean the old one is immediately discontinued. And who is to say the A3 will not be priced at the same level as the A2 when they do run out. I believe they certainly will.

My point is rather obvious, I thought. Just because a new player is released doesn't mean the old one is immediately discontinued.


That's where you are off-base, at least in citing Playstation. The PS2 and PS3 are not different players, they are entirely different formats.

For both systems, as new revisions are created ... they do stop production of the old ones. The 60GB(NTSC) and 20GB models are no longer in production, do to cost reductions. They have been replaced by a 80GB(NTSC)/60GB(PAL) unit that removed the Emotion Engine, and the new 40GB 65nm unit that removed both the Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer+eDRAM (amongst other changes).

If anything, citing Playstation (crap, the PS2 has gone through over a dozen revisions, both major and minor) is making the case that the A2 will indeed go away.


And who is to say the A3 will not be priced at the same level as the A2 when they do run out. I believe they certainly will.

When did I say it wouldn't be? It might be, it might not be. Regardless, I didn't intend to imply either way.

Some manager from Walmart just posted that the HD-A2 will go on sale for $99 on 11-3.

They told him to post it here, so we will see.

Some manager from Walmart just posted that the HD-A2 will go on sale for $99 on 11-3.

They told him to post it here, so we will see.

I'd buy 3 if true. I kid you not.

Happy Halloween Everyone!

Rumor Thread Posters!


I guess Halloween will really be "Trick or Treat" with the big news heh?:D

From the "Wal-Mart $198 A2 Thread"

I'm a Wal-Mart Manager and we just received direction today that this friday we will be having a mini black friday like sale with TV adverstising supposed to be happening tomorrow or Thursday. The Toshiba HD DVD player will go for $99 (it seems like the $198 price point was smokescreen as our district and regional level management seemed to know little about the pricing in some of the initial email communication we received) there will be an assortment of HD DVD's for $14.98, and our Sanyo 50" plasma TV for $999. There are several other items that will be offered at discounted prices but these were the hottest items.

Poster with 1 post. Take with a grain of salt.

I'd buy 3 if true. I kid you not.

I better be standing in line in front of you cause I want 2!:D

Talk about a great gift for Christmas. Cheap and beautiful in the same package. Wait, thats my girlfriend not the player, sorry. Still a great gift item, if true.

From the "Wal-Mart $198 A2 Thread"



Poster with 1 post. Take with a grain of salt.

A LOT of salt. The $14.88 HD DVD movie titles are real though.

A LOT of salt. The $14.88 HD DVD movie titles are real though.

So Ive heard...from you. :)

So you have not heard anything about this?

Please, explain the PS2 and PS3 to us in plain terms so we can try to understand what your saying.

The PS3 has been out for a year now yet they still seem to be still building PS2's. Is that only because they sell twice as many as their premier "new" model.

If the economy is in such bad shape, as you say, how on earth can the BDA sell a single player since they are twice as expensive as the Toshiba. Please, I'm trying to understand here.

What are you talking about? :confused:

The PS2 is cheaper to manufacture than the PS3.

The HD-A3 is cheaper to manufacture than the HD-A2, and encompasses all of its features. Hence they'd be stupid to continue manufacture the HD-A2.

Some manager from Walmart just posted that the HD-A2 will go on sale for $99 on 11-3.

They told him to post it here, so we will see.

Where (what site) was it just posted? Do you have a link?

I guess Halloween will really be "Trick or Treat" with the big news heh?:D

Another lightbulb goes off over my head. My head radar just went . . PING!

THAT IS THE TRUTH! Absolutely 100% . . . Grade A:eek:

he he he . . so who gets tricked and who gets treated?

:D:D

So Ive heard...from you. :)

So you have not heard anything about this?

Not a word. I pulled up the playbook on this sale today. WM will have 4 of them from now until Christmas with different items each time.

http://holiday.ri-walmart.com/?section=secret&utm_source=wmall&utm_medium=all&utm_campaign=holidaygif

Use the link. It is already showing the laptop that is in this ad and the rest are supposed to be revealed tomorrow.

Here is what I can remember from the movie list:

Lucky Number S7even
4 Brothers
Failure to Launch
Clerks 2
Backdraft
Italian Job


Ill grab the list tomorrow and post all of them.

Where (what site) was it just posted? Do you have a link?

Here ya go

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12065285#post12065285

What are you talking about? :confused:

The PS2 is cheaper to manufacture than the PS3.

The HD-A3 is cheaper to manufacture than the HD-A2, and encompasses all of its features. Hence they'd be stupid to continue manufacture the HD-A2.

Unless they planned to sell million players by the end of the year. Of course they will stop making them. But, why stop immediatley with a proven player that you know will sell great. I remember what happened last year. They went two months without a player at all. Perhaps they are making sure that doesn't happen this year.

Also the words "not stop production immediately" doesn't mean forever. You talk like they stopped making them the day the A3 hit the shores.

The PS2 also has another advantage, it actually sells!

Here ya go

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12065285#post12065285

and this is the very next post

Huh? I am a co manager for WM and from what I read its going to be $198. Where did you get this $98 number from?

:p

Also the words "not stop production immediately" doesn't mean forever. You talk like they stopped making them the day the A3 hit the shores.


Obviously immediately isn't possible. There are two standard business models for this situation:

1) Drop the price of the old model in order to make it more attractive.

2) Bring the newer model out at a higher pricepoint, generally with the intent of bringing its pricepoint down once the older model has dried up.

Both business models have the intent to 'closeout' the old model so it can be replaced by the new one.

To these posts concerning these $98 A2's . . .

Ahem . . . . it's Halloween . . NOT April Fool's day!

Please, explain the PS2 and PS3 to us in plain terms so we can try to understand what your saying.

The PS3 has been out for a year now yet they still seem to be still building PS2's. Is that only because they sell twice as many as their premier "new" model.

If the economy is in such bad shape, as you say, how on earth can the BDA sell a single player since they are twice as expensive as the Toshiba. Please, I'm trying to understand here.

thats simple.

the ps2 still has a large market and is completely profitable, requiring no changes. Toshiba is still refining it's hd-dvd line and as of yet (based on hd player sales) does not have a huge demand / market for it, so it makes sense for them to make cheaper products and improve profitability.

keeping a low demand item in production when you could re-engineer it to make production costs cheaper makes no sense.

if the a2 was selling by the boatload I would agree, but there is no pent up demand.

Neither format is selling well right now imho, and until it's all settled it probably wont.

just my $.0000002

Tony

thats simple.

the ps2 still has a large market and is completely profitable, requiring no changes. Toshiba is still refining it's hd-dvd line and as of yet (based on hd player sales) does not have a huge demand / market for it, so it makes sense for them to make cheaper products and improve profitability.

keeping a low demand item in production when you could re-engineer it to make production costs cheaper makes no sense.

if the a2 was selling by the boatload I would agree, but there is no pent up demand.

Neither format is selling well right now imho, and until it's all settled it probably wont.

just my $.0000002

Tony

It all depends on how much material you have on hand.

The current premium business desktop PC from HP is the DC7800. It launched in September. The previous model the DC7700 is still in production and is scheduled to continue in production until at 1//08 or later depending on availability of materials.

Waste not want as B. Franklin would say. Just because the A3 will be cheaper to build over its lifetime does not mean that it is necessarily cheaper to build today, and if you are using materials that would otherwise get scrapped the older more expensive model may be significantly cheaper to produce. Depends on how you do the accounting. But pennies matter in CE manufacturing and throwing material out is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Just having a a couple hundred thousand cases around could justify building A2s until they are gone.

I know when HP bought Compaq, Compaq had several million PC chassis for the Presario line stocked up somewhere. HP used those parts for a long time, they turned out to quite the little treasure trove. Sure Presarios did not look different every 90 day as is typical of many consumer PCs... but it sure was better to use them then to scrap them...

Their attach rate is worse than I had initially thought. There must be some truth to what people say. Many people buy Toshiba players for the large quantity of free titles included during the initial player purchase but then don't really buy many beyond that.

I find that unlikely as I am *still* waiting for my freebies as are many other quadrillions of HD DVD player owners. So in the meantime I've bought about a dozen of my own. Didn't see that happening in just four months.

Orignally posted by wipon
I think your just proving that price does matter and people will be watching what they buy. Lets see $399 or $198, what will they do??

The average person will, probably look at the $199 and go, "Cool... Wait, I can't buy Spiderman 3, Ratatouie or Die Hard in HD for this format? Screw it, I'll wait until I can buy every movie I want."

When you start pushing at Wal Mart, you're aiming for the average consumer (soccer mom), and the average consumer wants the convience of being able to buy everything, not just select titles.

But, of course, only price matters...

fitprod

The average person will, probably look at the $199 and go, "Cool... Wait, I can't buy Spiderman 3, Ratatouie or Die Hard in HD for this format? Screw it, I'll wait until I can buy every movie I want."

When you start pushing at Wal Mart, you're aiming for the average consumer (soccer mom), and the average consumer wants the convience of being able to buy everything, not just select titles.

But, of course, only price matters...

fitprod

Its still a better deal than a decent upconverting player that costs around $129. As for the movies you mentioned,the A2's upconverting will do just fine.

thats simple.

the ps2 still has a large market and is completely profitable, requiring no changes. Toshiba is still refining it's hd-dvd line and as of yet (based on hd player sales) does not have a huge demand / market for it, so it makes sense for them to make cheaper products and improve profitability.

keeping a low demand item in production when you could re-engineer it to make production costs cheaper makes no sense.

if the a2 was selling by the boatload I would agree, but there is no pent up demand.

Neither format is selling well right now imho, and until it's all settled it probably wont.




just my $.0000002

Tony

At a low enough price there will be demand for the A2. Customers just need to see a demo of Transformers running and they'll be hooked.

The average person will, probably look at the $199 and go, "Cool... Wait, I can't buy Spiderman 3, Ratatouie or Die Hard in HD for this format? Screw it, I'll wait until I can buy every movie I want."

When you start pushing at Wal Mart, you're aiming for the average consumer (soccer mom), and the average consumer wants the convience of being able to buy everything, not just select titles.

But, of course, only price matters...

fitprod

Wow, I guess the management at WalMArt are really a pack of idiots then. How on earth did they mange to become the #1 retailer on the planet with such stupid people running it. They should really start doing product research before they decide to sell products.

Well, maybe they know something you don't. I know, I know it's sounds rediclious, but it still could be true.

This was already answered on post #1008.

and you wasted all that time typing......bummer!

Read a few posts BEFORE YOU post!

At least we have some lyrics from a really bad 80s song.

Thank you for the advice kind sir. Fortunately it took me all of 3 seconds to copy and paste what I posted anyways, so no harm done.

In any event what I wrote stands. So there is an upswing of interest due to HD-DVD laptops (counted on NPD or not), that's great. I know I'm ready to buy a new computer just to get an HD-DVD drive that I can buy for peanuts down at Walmart.

Most of these laptops have HDMI output and can easily be attached to a display.

Most of these laptops have HDMI output and can easily be attached to a display.

I doubt laptops with BD/HDDVD will have any impact whatsoever.

1) Exhorbitant price....basically doubles the cost of an average laptop.
2) Only advantage is that it can play BD/HDDVD moves. Not much of advantage when the only software costs $20-25 bucks a pop. And not much of an advantage to watch movies on a 12-15" screen with no multichannel sound.
3) I doubt a laptop could even finish playing a HDDVD or BD movie without draining the battery completely.
4)Digital-distribution stuff is much better for mobile viewing, such as through itunes etc. Carrying around multiple BD/HDDVDs is just not convenient.

Toshiba has at least two laptops out with HD DVD drives that go for $1000. Both are available at BestBuy today. :)

thats simple.

the ps2 still has a large market and is completely profitable, requiring no changes. Toshiba is still refining it's hd-dvd line and as of yet (based on hd player sales) does not have a huge demand / market for it, so it makes sense for them to make cheaper products and improve profitability.

keeping a low demand item in production when you could re-engineer it to make production costs cheaper makes no sense.

if the a2 was selling by the boatload I would agree, but there is no pent up demand.

Neither format is selling well right now imho, and until it's all settled it probably wont.

just my $.0000002

Tony

True, the PS2 does have a large market. Why is that? Wasn't the PS3 supposed to take over the sales of the PS2? Afterall it is the next generation. Thats why they call it the PS3. So maybe next generation doesn't mean get rid of the old one as soon as possible every time. Sometimes there are reasons to keep making it. Just like there is reason to keep making the A2 right now.

Business models are fine and are usually pretty accurate and a good method to follow. But, circumstances sometimes come into play and blindly following a business model can sometimes create their on problems.

The PS2 and PS3 are perfect examples of this. How many other products do you or anyone know of that the past generation model is outselling the current generation model by at least twice the amount a year after it's release. I can't think of a single one. Where does that fall into the business model. You can bet Sony didn't put it into the model when they came up with the PS3.

So maybe blindly following business models is not always the right decision. It really isn't complicated and I certainly didn't mean to make it seem that way.

When you start pushing at Wal Mart, you're aiming for the average consumer (soccer mom), and the average consumer wants the convience of being able to buy everything, not just select titles.


I wonder: is Wal Mart still selling Xbox and PS3 which both have selected exclusive titles???

I doubt laptops with BD/HDDVD will have any impact whatsoever.

1) Exhorbitant price....basically doubles the cost of an average laptop.
2) Only advantage is that it can play BD/HDDVD moves. Not much of advantage when the only software costs $20-25 bucks a pop. And not much of an advantage to watch movies on a 12-15" screen with no multichannel sound.
3) I doubt a laptop could even finish playing a HDDVD or BD movie without draining the battery completely.
4)Digital-distribution stuff is much better for mobile viewing, such as through itunes etc. Carrying around multiple BD/HDDVDs is just not convenient.

Who's talking about mobile usage. I said you can take the laptop, plug it into the wall and attach it to a TV and watch a movie. People attach laptops to displays all the time. Haven't you ever seen a powerpoint presentation?

Who's talking about mobile usage. I said you can take the laptop, plug it into the wall and attach it to a TV and watch a movie. People attach laptops to displays all the time. Haven't you ever seen a powerpoint presentation?


No because I work 3rd **** @ Wallmart. And my back hurts from having to stack a butload of these dvd players from Toshiba, on the shelves. Can you believe they are selling them for $198 dollars

No because I work 3rd **** @ Wallmart. And my back hurts from having to stack a butload of these dvd players from Toshiba, on the shelves. Can you believe they are selling them for $198 dollars

You deserve workman's compensation and some time off to enjoy some HDDVDs.:)

Not a word. I pulled up the playbook on this sale today. WM will have 4 of them from now until Christmas with different items each time.

http://holiday.ri-walmart.com/?section=secret&utm_source=wmall&utm_medium=all&utm_campaign=holidaygif

Use the link. It is already showing the laptop that is in this ad and the rest are supposed to be revealed tomorrow.

Here is what I can remember from the movie list:

Lucky Number S7even
4 Brothers
Failure to Launch
Clerks 2
Backdraft
Italian Job


Ill grab the list tomorrow and post all of them.


Add Sleepy Hollow to the list too ;)

Was able to get one of the titles (Failure to Launch), for that price, early.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee226/Rask9/rec1.jpg

So I will confirm the 14.XX movies.

Rask

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3ic868cb7073298c93e702dbdc92804c43

Despite the sharp tongues of the studio presidents, the biggest buzz at the Blu-ray Festival was generated by the likelihood that Warner may soon align itself exclusively with one camp.

In an interview, Dan Silverberg, vp high-definition media at Warner, admitted "one thing that may be changing is our strategy," and that a change could come as early as the end of the fourth quarter.

"When both formats launched and hardware prices were high, we made a decision to support both formats and let the consumer decide," he said. "But now that hardware pricing is affordable for both Blu-ray and HD DVD, it appears consumers no longer want to decide -- so the notion of staying in two formats for the duration is something we are re-evaluating now that we are in the fourth quarter."

Silverberg noted that Warner has the top-selling Blu-ray title of all time with "300" and is consistently No. 1 or No. 2 in both Blu-ray sales market share and in number of Blu-ray titles in the market.

"We can definitely talk Blu-ray," he said. "We are committed to the format."

A Warner source said the studio is watching what happens now that Wal-Mart and other big retailers are selling entry-level Toshiba HD DVD players for less than $200, about half what the cheapest Blu-ray player costs.

If there is a significant spike in HD DVD software sales, the studio may cast its lot with that format, whereas if there is no real impact, Warner may go Blu-ray only.

Does not sound like Warner is going Blu-ray only today.

True, the PS2 does have a large market. Why is that? Wasn't the PS3 supposed to take over the sales of the PS2? Afterall it is the next generation. Thats why they call it the PS3. So maybe next generation doesn't mean get rid of the old one as soon as possible every time. Sometimes there are reasons to keep making it. Just like there is reason to keep making the A2 right now.


And again you continue to cite an apples to oranges comparison that is simply not comparable to the situation at hand.

Simply pretending my posts do not exist does not somehow validate yours.


Business models are fine and are usually pretty accurate and a good method to follow. But, circumstances sometimes come into play and blindly following a business model can sometimes create their on problems.

The PS2 and PS3 are perfect examples of this. How many other products do you or anyone know of that the past generation model is outselling the current generation model by at least twice the amount a year after it's release. I can't think of a single one. Where does that fall into the business model. You can bet Sony didn't put it into the model when they came up with the PS3.


My god ... you are truly being ridiculous.

Reality check time. That happened every video game 'generation'. Because 'generation' for a video game system is NOT the same thing as a 'generation' for a particular format's product lines.

Why? Because a new video game system 'generation' is an entirely new format. It is not 'next' year's cost-reduced model of the same format.


Your argument is equivalent to saying the DVD format exists, yet so does BD and HD DVD. Well no kidding. They are entirely different formats, and the new ones haven't supplanted (and may never) the old one.

You just stated, "How many other products do you or anyone know of that the past generation model is outselling the current generation model by at least twice the amount a year after it's release. I can't think of a single one."

I can think of one. It's called DVD ... and neither BD nor HD DVD have supplanted it in a years time. And they won't in two years. Nor three. I can think of another example - VHS. How long did that take before the 'next generation' overthrew it? A video game 'generation' may be a little shorter than a media format (generally 5-7 years), but the principal is the same.


To compare the above situations to the A2/A3 is ... I'd rather not say what it is.


So maybe blindly following business models is not always the right decision. It really isn't complicated and I certainly didn't mean to make it seem that way.

It isn't complicated ... you are just completely missing the point, and viewing the entire argument incorrectly.

Does not sound like Warner is going Blu-ray only today.

but you think it sounds like they're going hd dvd only today amirite

Here’s my guess:

Warner Bros: “Guys, we have a press conference setup for 2:00 PM, have your final bids submitted by noon.”

:D
This really made me laugh!

but you think it sounds like they're going hd dvd only today amirite

A Warner source said the studio is watching what happens now that Wal-Mart and other big retailers are selling entry-level Toshiba HD DVD players for less than $200, about half what the cheapest Blu-ray player costs.

If there is a significant spike in HD DVD software sales, the studio may cast its lot with that format, whereas if there is no real impact, Warner may go Blu-ray only. Sound like neither today.

But is a pretty damn good bet that HD DVD software sales will dramatically increase if a lot more HD DVD players are sold, and Universal Paramount and Dreamworks could always do a BOGO if they want company as HD DVD exclusive studios.

I give 0- 1% chance its a Blu-ray exclusive announcement, 20% its an HD DVD exclusive announcement 79-80% chance is a title announcement

But its almost a certainty that there will be a "a significant spike in HD DVD software sales" when HD DVD players are getting massive new retail support at sub $198 price points.

I am kinda surprised that the Warner exec would say that at the Blu-ray event. That certainly would have been the talk of the event and cause for BDA people to go berserk.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3ic868cb7073298c93e702dbdc92804c43

A Warner source said the studio is watching what happens now that Wal-Mart and other big retailers are selling entry-level Toshiba HD DVD players for less than $200, about half what the cheapest Blu-ray player costs.

If there is a significant spike in HD DVD software sales, the studio may cast its lot with that format, whereas if there is no real impact, Warner may go Blu-ray only.

That just doesn't much sense. Exactly what would constitute a 'significant spike' in sales?


BD has enjoyed a 2:1 sales lead over HD DVD for this year, yet Warner remained neutral. If the article is trying to argue that Warner is going to make this decision purely based on sales data, then wouldn't that mean HD DVD would have to move to more than a 2:1 sales lead over BD ... and for over a substantial time period?

Otherwise, what would be the short-term benefit of stopping neutrality ... other than lost sales? Long term, what is the benefit for choosing one format over the other?

If anything, unless sales dramatically shift in HD DVD's favor, BD ends up looking better long-term. Let's say sales spike from the $199 HD DVD players. Let's say it puts SW sales even, or even gives HD DVD some level of a majority. That is when competing against BD players at twice the price. What's going to happen when cheaper BD players come out? The CE world doesn't exist in a vacuum. Obviously BD manufactures have been working at cost reductions as well, and the delta will continue to shrink between the formats.

Unless this walmart move causes HD DVD SW sales to just absolutely crush BD SW sales, we will likely just see the ratio move back into BD's favor as the price gap continues to close.

"significant spike" as in better sales for HD DVD than has been seen to date, independent than before.

Since its a no brainer that HD DVD sales will increase anyway in the high 4Q, and just did last week, and will rise even more with cheaper hardware sales at large retailers stocking more hardware and software, it looks like media prep for saying be prepared that we are leaning HD DVD and that HD DVD software sales are the fact we are looking at.

brief gaming discussion as it pertains to format war

I think that the PS3 passed the 2M mark and with the new, lower, $399 retail price they will sell another 1M or more over the next 60 days.

However, this is still going to put them solidly in 3rd place for the forseeable future. MS sold something like 600K 360's this month because of the Halo launch and we still haven't seen what they really have planned for the holidays.

There's no question that Sony has made a lot of broken promises based on how well the PS3 was supposed to perform.

HD DVD was supposed to be crushed by this time, with 4-1 (BDA) or 10-1 (Fox) sales depending on who you believe.


The 360 just brolke 500k last month and that was due to halo 3...no way ps3 can sell 500k a month...maybe 300k...but prob 250k

Seems if Universal Paramount Dreamworks and the rest of the Viacom studios want to get some company in the exclusive HD DVD studio club, they need to get some BOGOs going and tell retailers to drop some prices.

BTW, Thats another likely possibility for tomorrow.

Warner could do an across the board MSRP drop on HDM titles or announce a major sale .

"significant spike" as in better sales for HD DVD than has been seen to date, independent than before.

Since its a no brainer that HD DVD sales will increase anyway in the high 4Q, and just did last week, and will rise even more with cheaper hardware sales at large retailers stocking more hardware and software, it looks like media prep for saying be prepared that we are leaning HD DVD and that HD DVD software sales are the fact we are looking at.

But again, that doesn't seem to make much sense. Why stop neutrality just because SW sales moved to being even?

That just doesn't much sense. Exactly what would constitute a 'significant spike' in sales?


BD has enjoyed a 2:1 sales lead over HD DVD for this year, yet Warner remained neutral. If the article is trying to argue that Warner is going to make this decision purely based on sales data, then wouldn't that mean HD DVD would have to move to more than a 2:1 sales lead over BD ... and for over a substantial time period?

Otherwise, what would be the short-term benefit of stopping neutrality ... other than lost sales? Long term, what is the benefit for choosing one format over the other?

If anything, unless sales dramatically shift in HD DVD's favor, BD ends up looking better long-term. Let's say sales spike from the $199 HD DVD players. Let's say it puts SW sales even, or even gives HD DVD some level of a majority. That is when competing against BD players at twice the price. What's going to happen when cheaper BD players come out? The CE world doesn't exist in a vacuum. Obviously BD manufactures have been working at cost reductions as well, and the delta will continue to shrink between the formats. A couple thoughts.

First a HD DVD sales surge would show a positive trend and if you are looking long term you can say the ratios don't matter, HD DVD is showing software sales growth that is dependent on hardware penetration, and if you can estimate hardware sales, you can project future software revenues.

How HD DVD sales are doing against PS3 driven Blu-ray sales is basically irrelevant.

Second issue, Blu-ray can drop prices in the future, but its probably to late to get mass quantities of BD players produced to sell at sub $200 price points.

Those units would have to be already produced and ready to get on the boats to be here by December.

The 4Q is where most hardware sales happen and if the article is accurate, Warner just said this 4Q is the determining factor, and the rest of the years historical sales are irrelevant..

And with players costing twice as much or more as the sub $199 HD A2s and Xbox 360 add ons, Blu-ray is kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Future Blu-ray player price reductions will be too late, to impact any Warner decision.

But again, that doesn't seem to make much sense. Why stop neutrality just because SW sales moved to being even?
Because they want to end the format war as soon as possible, and if HD DVD hardware hits mass adoption points, and sells a lot of units in the 4Q, it will steadily gain in software sales throughout the year.

Hardware sales drop significantly in the 1st quarter, so any lead HD DVD gains with cheaper players will be sustained throughout the year.

Cheaper players sold for Blu-ray next fall will not matter as the Warner decision will have been made,

You can project out that future software sales will follow sales of high attach rate hardware.

Its looking for the HD DVD software sales trend-line in units and revenues , not the ratio in comparison to the PS3 driven Blu-ray sales.

It really won't matter if Blu-ray leads those numbers , if BD sales depend on the PS3.

HD DVD may not have to beat Blu-ray in the short term if you can project that it will do so in the long term.

Otherwise, what would be the short-term benefit of stopping neutrality ... other than lost sales? Long term, what is the benefit for choosing one format over the other? Minor lost HDM sales in short term for Blu-ray may be offset by more HD DVD sales short and long term .



If anything, unless sales dramatically shift in HD DVD's favor, BD ends up looking better long-term. Let's say sales spike from the $199 HD DVD players. Let's say it puts SW sales even, or even gives HD DVD some level of a majority. That is when competing against BD players at twice the price. What's going to happen when cheaper BD players come out? The CE world doesn't exist in a vacuum. Obviously BD manufactures have been working at cost reductions as well, and the delta will continue to shrink between the formats. True but Blu-ray players won't get to sub $198 until next year, and Wal-Mart Sears K-Mart etc have already picked sides for cheaper players this year.

Warner is making the decision between today and a couple months from now,

Next year is too late for Blu-ray.

Unless a Blu-ray manufacturer steps up and offers a sub $200 player and convinces mass retailers to carry it in the next 30 days, HD DVD will have a significant hardware sales volume advantage this fall.

Then its PS3 driven software sales versus HD DVD dedicated movie player driven software sales.

Besides Sony, the Blu-ray CEs seem to be taking a lower volume higher margin pricing model for this 4Q.

Dropping prices is a risk they may be unwilling to take if their production quantities were based on lower volume higher margin sales plans.

What time is the press conference scheduled for?

The 4Q is where most hardware sales happen and if the article is accurate, Warner just said this 4Q is the determining factor, and the rest of the years historical sales are irrelevant..

They never said that, you're putting words in their mouth. They said the 4th quarter is a determining factor.

How you can take "a determining factor" and pull "the rest of the years historical sales are irrelevant" out of your *** amazes me.

Ya gotta love the sheer and utter geekiness of obsessing over a corporate press conference :D.

Ya gotta love the sheer and utter geekiness of obsessing over a corporate press conference :D.

It took you a year to come up with that??

J/k, welcome to the forums, kinda'. :)

Sound like neither today.

But is a pretty damn good bet that HD DVD software sales will dramatically increase if a lot more HD DVD players are sold, and Universal Paramount and Dreamworks could always do a BOGO if they want company as HD DVD exclusive studios.

I give 0- 1% chance its a Blu-ray exclusive announcement, 20% its an HD DVD exclusive announcement 79-80% chance is a title announcement

But its almost a certainty that there will be a "a significant spike in HD DVD software sales" when HD DVD players are getting massive new retail support at sub $198 price points.

I am kinda surprised that the Warner exec would say that at the Blu-ray event. That certainly would have been the talk of the event and cause for BDA people to go berserk.I give 0- 1% chance its a Blu-ray exclusive announcement, 20% its an HD DVD exclusive announcement Wow, with the way you compute odds Kosty, I want to play table stakes poker with you.

Is there a time for this press conference?

Warner has said they are tired of the "war" and that it is counterproductive to their business to have both formats still around.

They want the war to end, will choose a side and promote the h*ll out of it.

Choosing before the biggest shopping season in the year makes very good business sense.

Which side to choose to end the war now? Easy. HD-DVD: proven success in making players and now in mass distribution at the "magic price point."

Only by choosing HD-DVD now or early next year can they realistically hope to end the war in the short term. Choosing Blu-Ray during that time frame would only prolong the war.

No doubt in my mind they will go HD-DVD and I hope it is sooner rather than later. We will see in a few hours if they are ready to do it now or if they choose to wait until next year.

fafner

Warner has said they are tired of the "war" and that it is counterproductive to their business to have both formats still around.

They want the war to end, will choose a side and promote the h*ll out of it.

Choosing before the biggest shopping season in the year makes very good business sense.

Which side to choose to end the war now? Easy. HD-DVD: proven success in making players and now in mass distribution at the "magic price point."


More like a mass clearout because Toshiba totally blew there projections. Toshiba has been playing the price card all year and have made zero ground on media sales, and have a pretty dismal story on standalone share (given the price gap). It's not going to be any different this time.

If they choose BlueOnly that would basicly stal BD standalone pricing. And I think Warner want player prices to go down.

As I written before, there is logic to go HD exclusive if it times with the 200$ player campaign. They could create a great momentum for HD DVD a push player sales during christmas.

To wait after christmas will not have the same effect.

But now its just wait and see.

Warner has said they are tired of the "war" and that it is counterproductive to their business to have both formats still around.

They want the war to end, will choose a side and promote the h*ll out of it.

Choosing before the biggest shopping season in the year makes very good business sense.

Which side to choose to end the war now? Easy. HD-DVD: proven success in making players and now in mass distribution at the "magic price point."

Only by choosing HD-DVD now or early next year can they realistically hope to end the war in the short term. Choosing Blu-Ray during that time frame would only prolong the war.

No doubt in my mind they will go HD-DVD and I hope it is sooner rather than later. We will see in a few hours if they are ready to do it now or if they choose to wait until next year.

fafner

Choosing HD-DVD prolongs the war. Just like Paramount / Dreamworks prolonged the war.

Blu-ray has all the major motion studios outside of Universal, Paramount / Dreamworks, and wait...that's it.

Warner would end the war by going Blu-ray exclusive.

Going HD-DVD only prolongs the war into a stalemate where both sides even out. That's the death of HDM.

Choosing HD-DVD prolongs the war. Just like Paramount / Dreamworks prolonged the war.

Blu-ray has all the major motion studios outside of Universal, Paramount / Dreamworks, and wait...that's it.

Warner would end the war by going Blu-ray exclusive.

Going HD-DVD only prolongs the war into a stalemate where both sides even out. That's the death of HDM.

The problem is that we are stuck with more expensive players that way. And it will not help penetrate DVD market.

If they choose BlueOnly that would basicly stall BD standalone pricing. And I think Warner want player prices to go down...
But now its just wait and see.

My thoughts exactly. There would be zero reason to put Blu-Ray players on sale this holiday season, so $400 - $600 would be the norm.

J6P would be shut out.:(

Choosing HD-DVD prolongs the war. Just like Paramount / Dreamworks prolonged the war.

Blu-ray has all the major motion studios outside of Universal, Paramount / Dreamworks, and wait...that's it.

Warner would end the war by going Blu-ray exclusive.

Going HD-DVD only prolongs the war into a stalemate where both sides even out. That's the death of HDM.

Way off.

Buena Vista 42 12.07 %
DreamWorks 3 0.86 %
Fox 36 10.34 %
Lionsgate 32 9.20 %
MGM 12 3.45 %
Paramount 30 8.62 %
Sony 87 25.00 %
Warner 86 24.71 %
Magnolia 11 3.16 %
Concert Hot Spot 4 1.15 %
Discovery Channel 5 1.44 %

Total 366 (including Studios that should not be there anymore)

vs.

Buena Vista 42 12.07 %
Fox 36 10.34 %
Lionsgate 32 9.20 %
MGM 12 3.45 %
Sony 87 25.00 %
Magnolia 11 3.16 %
Concert Hot Spot 4 1.15 %
Discovery Channel 5 1.44 %

Total 229

Ouch.

You do realize that according to this, Warner is the second highest studio for Bluray next to Sony themselves. Sony only out releases them by 1 title!!!!

Losing Warner would not stall HDM. It would kill Bluray. At the same time, consumers would feel much safer about the format war (three studios walked away from the Bluray format) and would see $199 players at every major retail outlet.

If this would stall HDM... Bluray doesn't have a hope in hell based on their overpriced hardware or PS3 business model.

Sony 25%
Warner 24.71%

Choosing HD-DVD prolongs the war. Just like Paramount / Dreamworks prolonged the war.

Blu-ray has all the major motion studios outside of Universal, Paramount / Dreamworks, and wait...that's it.

Warner would end the war by going Blu-ray exclusive.

Going HD-DVD only prolongs the war into a stalemate where both sides even out. That's the death of HDM.

Having studios means nothing at all if there are not enough players out there to play the discs. Software availablity will follow; it always has and always will.

Players do not follow software...just the opposite. Unless you are in the porn business. :)

fafner

Choosing HD-DVD prolongs the war. Just like Paramount / Dreamworks prolonged the war.

Blu-ray has all the major motion studios outside of Universal, Paramount / Dreamworks, and wait...that's it.

Warner would end the war by going Blu-ray exclusive.

Going HD-DVD only prolongs the war into a stalemate where both sides even out. That's the death of HDM.

And it's hard to take you seriously when you say "That's the death of HDM". Even though I agree with your other points of choosing BD might just end this war a lot quicker then the way we are currently heading, I must totally disagree with the whole "death" to the entire format. It's such FUD. If anything, it will invigorate competition to a fever pitch which is always good for the consumer. Both are here to stay if WB decides either to go HD or remain Neutral. If they choose BD however, it will be a SERIOUS blow to HD-DVD from which they "may" never recover. TotalHD (THD) guarantees that WB will choose Red or stay neutral... ;)

Way off.

Buena Vista 42 12.07 %
DreamWorks 3 0.86 %
Fox 36 10.34 %
Lionsgate 32 9.20 %
MGM 12 3.45 %
Paramount 30 8.62 %
Sony 87 25.00 %
Warner 86 24.71 %
Magnolia 11 3.16 %
Concert Hot Spot 4 1.15 %
Discovery Channel 5 1.44 %

Total 366 (including Studios that should not be there anymore)

vs.

Buena Vista 42 12.07 %
Fox 36 10.34 %
Lionsgate 32 9.20 %
MGM 12 3.45 %
Sony 87 25.00 %
Magnolia 11 3.16 %
Concert Hot Spot 4 1.15 %
Discovery Channel 5 1.44 %

Total 229

Ouch.

You do realize that according to this, Warner is the second highest studio for Bluray next to Sony themselves. Sony only out releases them by 1 title!!!!

Losing Warner would not stall HDM. It would kill Bluray. At the same time, consumers would feel much safer about the format war (three studios walked away from the Bluray format) and would see $199 players at every major retail outlet.

If this would stall HDM... Bluray doesn't have a hope in hell based on their overpriced hardware or PS3 business model.

Sony 25%
Warner 24.71%

Wow, way to compare.

By these figures then it gives Warner even more incentive to go Blu-ray exclusive considering they are selling so well.

Now try comparing a list of HD-DVD studios to a list of Blu-ray studios and take Warner away from both lists? Hint: Don't count Toshiba or Microsoft!

Consumers don't "get it". They want one format.

Your average consumer is confused to **** by HDM right now. Warner "gets it" - which is why their strategy is about to shift.

The average person will, probably look at the $199 and go, "Cool... Wait, I can't buy Spiderman 3, Ratatouie or Die Hard in HD for this format? Screw it, I'll wait until I can buy every movie I want."

When you start pushing at Wal Mart, you're aiming for the average consumer (soccer mom), and the average consumer wants the convience of being able to buy everything, not just select titles.

But, of course, only price matters...

fitprod

Being that they are your average casual consumer I seriously doubt they would know which movies are on which format at all. They'll pick up whats available and assume everything else will come eventually. Price will most certainly be a very big factor for this group.

Maybe, just maybe some of your points arent as important Warner as you would like them to be?

(hint #3 and #4)

And maybe, just maybe the BDA plans a $299 player by years end?

Or maybe $399 IS affordable?

I for 1 am guilty of paying $490 for a VCR 15 years ago that is still hooked up. :)

ok...$399 is affordable to the upper middle class...$199 is affordable to middle class families....guess what class more consumers fall in.

Now try comparing a list of HD-DVD studios to a list of Blu-ray studios and take Warner away from both lists? Hint: Don't count Toshiba or Microsoft!


I didn't know Toshiba or Microsoft had studios? This isn't Sony we are talking about here.. :)


Buena Vista 42 12.07 %
Fox 36 10.34 %
Lionsgate 32 9.20 %
MGM 12 3.45 %
Sony 87 25.00 %

Total 209


vs.

DreamWorks 4 1.25 %
Paramount 34 10.59 %
Universal 128 39.88 %
Weinstein 11 3.43 %
DVD International 9 2.80 %
Rhino 6 1.87 %
Image 3 0.93 %

Total 195

Warner released 109 titles on HD-DVD. Significantly more than they have on Bluray (86).

Removing them makes everything fairly even across the board. Getting them on one side or the other (as you can see) would be a death blow for the other side.

TotalHD (THD) guarantees that WB will choose Red or stay neutral... ;)
How does that guarentee they choose 'red' more so than 'blue'?
You make good points, but its hard to take you seriously when you say something like that ;)

What time is the press conference scheduled for?

bump, what time is the press conference?

Let's keep THIS thread to rumors and, perhaps, a quick comment or two about the rumor. Don't want it getting off topic and off track. Thanks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks ;)

Joking? No. I was serious. Did that bother you?:confused:

So you didn't answer my question . . . how many hours does it take to finish the average game?

Oh when you answer that question would you please answer this one . . .

How much does a PS3 BD based game cost? MSRP will do it.

Lee, your logic is flawed. If you play games on a computer does that mean you don't use it for other purposes? If you spend hours on the AVS forum (or other forums) does that mean you do not watch movies? If you have a separate game console like the Xbox or PS2 does that mean you do not watch movies? When the PS2 came out I also bought one not only to play games but watch DVDs. People can buy a product for more than one purpose. I do understand where you are coming from with disposable income (PS3 games retail between $50 to $60), But people make choices how to spent money all the time.

ok...$399 is affordable to the upper middle class...$199 is affordable to middle class families....guess what class more consumers fall in.It just got even lower Best buy has the A2 for $179...check store for stock they are selling out fast.;)

It just got even lower Best buy has the A2 for $179...check store for stock they are selling out fast.;)

jesus that's cheap, and arguably the best entry-level standalong HD-DVD player out there.

It just got even lower Best buy has the A2 for $179...check store for stock they are selling out fast.;)

Don't worry, for only $19 more you can get one at Wal-Mart and they are not going to run out until after the holidays.

From what I have read, players are really starting to sell. Its just like the analysts predicted, once the price drops below $200, they will really take off.
This is great news for the average consumer!

If Warner were to choose a side today, it would be smart for them to pick HD over BD. I say that even though I paid over 600 dollars for a PS3 to play BD.

It really has to do with price and competing against DVD. BD cannot do that, and won't be able to do that for a year or so. The problem is that runs right into when HD VOD will be fully rolled out via XBL and appleTV. So HDM has a small window to take off, and if you want it to take off (as opposed to being a fanboi) then it's smart to pick the side that has the ability to ramp up disc production as well as get the players out the door at a good price (compared to DVD). BD cannot do that. 399 is not cheap, 189 is not cheap, but a heck of a lot closer to 129 than 399.

Fox and Disney will follow the Warner decision if they go HD, Sony will too, in time.

My PS3 will be sold on ebay, but maybe not. I've picked up three games and do enjoy it other than a BD player.

Just MHO.

Question - If HD-DVD was the only format do you think the prices of the HD_DVD player would be so cheap. I recently read Toshiba is loosing a ton of money subsidizing these players. (They are profitable overall).

That just doesn't much sense. Exactly what would constitute a 'significant spike' in sales?


BD has enjoyed a 2:1 sales lead over HD DVD for this year, yet Warner remained neutral. If the article is trying to argue that Warner is going to make this decision purely based on sales data, then wouldn't that mean HD DVD would have to move to more than a 2:1 sales lead over BD ... and for over a substantial time period?

Otherwise, what would be the short-term benefit of stopping neutrality ... other than lost sales? Long term, what is the benefit for choosing one format over the other?

If anything, unless sales dramatically shift in HD DVD's favor, BD ends up looking better long-term. Let's say sales spike from the $199 HD DVD players. Let's say it puts SW sales even, or even gives HD DVD some level of a majority. That is when competing against BD players at twice the price. What's going to happen when cheaper BD players come out? The CE world doesn't exist in a vacuum. Obviously BD manufactures have been working at cost reductions as well, and the delta will continue to shrink between the formats.

Unless this walmart move causes HD DVD SW sales to just absolutely crush BD SW sales, we will likely just see the ratio move back into BD's favor as the price gap continues to close.

What you fail to mention is that HD DVD has had around 500k players competing against Blu-rays 3.2 million players, and all Blu-ray can eek out is a 1.86:1 sales lead. A 6.4:1 hardware lead resulting in a 1.86:1 sales lead. If there are 1 million HD DVD players by years end, and the number of BD players increases to 5 million, and the software sales ratio is 1:1 as in your example, I would think it is a no brainer for Warner. A 5:1 hardware deficit for HD DVD and they still have a 1:1 sales ratio.

Why wouldn't they choose HD DVD? If they did choose it, there are 4 million people who have Blu-ray that would eventually switch to HD DVD. Then there is the entire rest of the market to grow into. The increase in sales potential is much greater for HD DVD in that scenario.

What you fail to mention is that HD DVD has had around 500k players competing against Blu-rays 3.2 million players, and all Blu-ray can eek out is a 1.86:1 sales lead. A 6.4:1 hardware lead resulting in a 1.86:1 sales lead. If there are 1 million HD DVD players by years end, and the number of BD players increases to 5 million, and the software sales ratio is 1:1 as in your example, I would think it is a no brainer for Warner. A 5:1 hardware deficit for HD DVD and they still have a 1:1 sales ratio.


Wait a sec - now you are including PS3s in your statistics? Kosty omitted them when posting the 60% HD DVD market share stat. I think you guys should at least be consistent.

Wow, with the way you compute odds Kosty, I want to play table stakes poker with you. Don't play poker.

I play blackjack. :D

Steady and consistent odds with the right strategy brings money in the long term, when you manage your bankroll properly and raise you bet at the right times.

Kinda like the format war. ;)

I think that...
Warner is watching what happens now that Wal-Mart and other big retailers are selling entry-level Toshiba HD DVD players for less than $200, about half what the cheapest Blu-ray player costs. If there is a significant spike in HD DVD software sales, the studio may cast its lot with that format, whereas if there is no real impact, Warner may go Blu-ray only.

How does that guarentee they choose 'red' more so than 'blue'?
You make good points, but its hard to take you seriously when you say something like that ;)

:p Yeah, I know! but it's a theory of mine that the reason for WB to choose Red is THD. It's logical. Bump up HD until both formats are even, universal players will be cheaper (or having 2 players BD/HD will be cheap as well), have a few studios who are BD exclusive concede and become neutral, then clean house with THD. I posted this a couple of times but it got deleted. :eek:

If Warner were to choose a side today, it would be smart for them to pick HD over BD. I say that even though I paid over 600 dollars for a PS3 to play BD.

It really has to do with price and competing against DVD. BD cannot do that, and won't be able to do that for a year or so.It also has to do with competing against a studio. People around here tend to forget that Sony Pictures is a major motion picture studio. In terms of consumer spending, they are bigger than Lionsgate, Disney, Paramount, and Universal.

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20070713215137/www.videobusiness.com/contents/images/2007MidYear-Overall.jpg

If you were a studio, why you buy in to a format that is primarily run by one of your largest competitors? Particularly when, at present, the majority of authoring and replication is going through Sony.

At least in my case, I can say that Warner going Blu-Ray exclusive would shut me out of HDM--at least for the moment. Yes, if they went exclusive either way, I believe that that would end the war.

If that turns out to be Blu-Ray, I'm screwed, though--at least in the short-term. I'm certainly not ready to buy until the technology and price points reach my magic targets. For me, I'd need a profile 2.0 player @ $200. Although I'd end up conceding that HD DVD has lost if Warner goes Blu-Ray, I'm still going to be stuck renting HD DVD and waiting for that magic to happen. That means, for me and people like me, HDM gets stalled for what is likely to be at least another year.

IF, however, they go HD DVD, everyone can safely and affordably buy into HDM right now. That may enter into their decision. Then again, it may not. I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

Wait a sec - now you are including PS3s in your statistics? Kosty omitted them when posting the 60% HD DVD market share stat. I think you guys should at least be consistent.
The 60% market share was what was quoted in the article and when used by that Toshiba VP has usually meant the NPD reported category of high definition DVD set top boxes. That is standalone dedicated players, not including the PS3 , or any other game consoles or accessories such as the Xbox 360 HD DVD add on.

What wnorris is using is an reasonable estimation of total hardware sockets in play on both sides.

Its the BDA and Sony that always claims them when they want to.

Source?

Blu-ray.com

:D:rolleyes:

It also has to do with competing against a studio. People around here tend to forget that Sony Pictures is a major motion picture studio. In terms of consumer spending, they are bigger than Lionsgate, Disney, Paramount, and Universal.

http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/2540/20070713215137/www.videobusiness.com/contents/images/2007MidYear-Overall.jpg

If you were a studio, why you buy in to a format that is primarily run by one of your largest competitors? Particularly when, at present, the majority of authoring and replication is going through Sony.

There's that too, the rule "don't feed the competition" is true.

Recent announcements from the large cable providers, MS, apple etc: all point to HD VOD coming out very very soon.

There's a growing chance that the format war will be over next year and HDM will loose, simply because the world is very very ready for PPV HD.

How long does a Super Sized Ocean Freighter take to go from Asia to LA or NJ? It can't go through the Panama Canal - too big.

We are almost 3 weeks from Black Friday. Anything that is going to be sold by retailers better be here now or arriving in the next few days.

Typically Asian-sourced electronics will take 4 weeks to cross the ocean and be unloaded in California. Then the items will be trucked around the nation by 18-wheeler or train.

They won't go to NJ, in my experience.

There is only 50,000 of those 200 dollar A2's

Wal-Mart shot that rumor down last week. They said there is NO LIMIT.
Plus, Amazon, CC and BB have them for even less.

Also, the Sears deal is on the new A3.

we set up a

Rumors Tracking Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931103) for the endless discussions that ensue :)

Lets try this so this main rumors thread can be limited to posting rumors

Thanks

this thread filled up quickly

so now we have created

HDM Rumor Thread Part III Put only new rumors here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12067852#post12067852)

and the new tracking thread
Rumors Tracking Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931103) for the endless discussions that ensue :)