http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T1.jpg

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T2.jpg

Detailed report:

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

Of course blu ray outsells hd dvd at every stop and corner. No one is debating that.

Blu-ray was probably not as profitable, despite the higher sales. It makes sense to go with one format, too, as those serious about high-definition that want Paramount titles can simply purchase an inexpensive HD DVD player.

Firemaster,

Did you look at the numbers on the chart? The rough average difference between the titles is roughly 3000 discs over 8 months. That amounts to 350 to 400 discs per month.

This is supposed to represent a domination of BD over HD? This is what BD is claiming amounts to a "winning" format? This is what BD is bragging about?

I look at those numbers and I think HDM is in trouble. If they can only sell a total of roughly 250K discs in 8 months, and that is not good.

Firemaster,

Did you look at the numbers on the chart? The rough average difference between the titles is roughly 3000 discs over 8 months. That amounts to 350 to 400 discs per month.

This is supposed to represent a domination of BD over HD? This is what BD is claiming amounts to a "winning" format? This is what BD is bragging about?

I look at those numbers and I think HDM is in trouble. If they can only sell a total of roughly 250K discs in 8 months, and that is not good.

This is the whole heart and crux of the matter.

I used to be like pffft when the hd dvd fans were like "the battle isnt between BR and HD DVD, but BR and DVD."

In actuality, it is HD DVD & BR vs DVD.

If I was a studio, with those numbers, I would not get behind either format without incentives.

lol, Failure to Launch fittingly having sold the least at 341 versus 305, too ironic.

Firemaster,

Did you look at the numbers on the chart? The rough average difference between the titles is roughly 3000 discs over 8 months. That amounts to 350 to 400 discs per month.

This is supposed to represent a domination of BD over HD? This is what BD is claiming amounts to a "winning" format? This is what BD is bragging about?

I look at those numbers and I think HDM is in trouble. If they can only sell a total of roughly 250K discs in 8 months, and that is not good.

Obviously these numbers are just a mere blip when compared to DVD sales numbers.

I think what Firemaster is trying to say is that Paramount's decision to go HD DVD exclusive certainly wasn't based on higher sales, which is what you might think would be the paramount (excuse the pun) reason to dump Blu-ray.

Despite what Paramount says, incentives were the main reason they sided with HD DVD.

Missions,

Except that as blumoon pointed out, no one said that HD was outselling BD on a disc basis. OTOH, looking at those numbers, they are pretty equivalent (the difference is only about 4K per month).

However, as Midnight points out, the income from the two could be the same, or HD might actually be more profitable depending on the costs to put out a disc.

HD might actually be more profitable depending on the costs to put out a disc.

HD DVD might have been more profitable or more generous?

It was a quick decision on Paramount's part to abandon Blu-ray. If manufacturing Blu-ray discs was too costly, how costly was it when they recalled all copies of Blades of Glory in BD.

Hey, I don't want to get into a big debate. I'm pro-HD not just pro Blu-ray. I'm thinking about getting the A35 next month.

I'm just saying that there's more to Paramount's decision than what they're admitting that's all.

HD DVD might have been more profitable or more generous?

It was a quick decision on Paramount's part to abandon Blu-ray. If manufacturing Blu-ray discs was too costly, how costly was it when they recalled all copies of Blades of Glory in BD.

Hey, I don't want to get into a big debate. I'm pro-HD not just pro Blu-ray. I'm thinking about getting the A35 next month.

I'm just saying that there's more to Paramount's decision than what they're admitting that's all.

Exactly money is what talks and with those numbers they probably would have sold out for 20 million... in incentives as its not like they made much off of hdm this year through whenever this was published!

This shows one thing for sure - both formats are failing. The highest selling Paramount title sold less then 25k copies. That is gross.

dont know - what these graphs say to me is that with more than 3 (possibly 4) times the amount of Hardware out there for Blu Ray- the differential is Tiny. Maybe that is the crux of the matter for paramount and their decision ?
No debates about standalones vs number of users of PS3 vs add ons or whatever - the numbers are the numbers in terms of 'Devices' capable of playing either format.
Other than that agreed with other posters - Overall the HD market is pretty insignificant still based on these figures.

Thanks
Mat

Blu-ray was probably not as profitable, despite the higher sales. It makes sense to go with one format, too, as those serious about high-definition that want Paramount titles can simply purchase an inexpensive HD DVD player.

LOL!!!!

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T1.jpg

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T2.jpg

Detailed report:

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml


omg - give it up already BDA. you got DUMPED !! accept it and move on. No amount of charts can tell the world that Paramount and Dreanworks DUMPED you because HD DVD has better business model.

Coming up with paramount only titles and in a presentation to the press proof nothing but BD desperation. The public is not as stupid as BDA think. They know there is more than unit titles sold. Paramount can sell 70K HD DVD titles vs 130K BD titles til date but that says poo if HD DVD titles took $7 per unit to make as compared to $15 per BD. So sorry. Try again ;)

and oh, according to the graph, Paramount sold 7,176 Blu-ray movies per month since June 2006. And Blu-ray is crying out loud that they are dumped . ;)

omg - give it up already BDA. you got DUMPED !!

Lol, agreed - I wonder how come the BDA has Paramounts exact sales figures (if that is even what the charts are showing)?

Hadn't it been reported MI3 on HDDVD outsold the BD releases? in which case it puts those figures right out of wack.

.

All of Paramounts titles put together sold less than Warners best selling disc (300). Wow! No wonder they dropped one of the formats, development costs must be killing them with so few discs being sold.

The spin in this forum is dizzying.

So if Paramount ditches Blu-ray and cancels sales of discs they've already pressed (Blades of Glory), it's because of a better business model that showed that they were selling fewer units on HD DVD across the board on every single title?

Granted, the numbers being discussed here are small enough to be laughable in a serious business context, but this logical doublespeak of ridiculing the Blu-ray disc sales while simultaneously championing why HD DVD was so much better for them boggles my mind. It's a wonder how some folks get up in the morning around here without imploding from their own self-created paradoxes.

Paramount's decision may have been influenced by many things, but I sincerely doubt the overwhelming volume of their HD DVD discs was one of them.

Blu Ray sold an extra 46'000 discs, that doesn't even justify hiring a single Java programmer, no wonder Blu Ray got dropped.

This is the whole heart and crux of the matter.

I used to be like pffft when the hd dvd fans were like "the battle isnt between BR and HD DVD, but BR and DVD."

In actuality, it is HD DVD & BR vs DVD.

If I was a studio, with those numbers, I would not get behind either format without incentives.


Since the DVD Forum is backing HD DVD and since HD DVD disk production is backwards compatible with DVD....it is DVD+HD DVD v. BD. DVD Forum v. BD Consortium. That is the fight at the business level....and how the players are aligned.

Reds: 25th Anniversity?

Wow, 550 copies of Mission Impossible sold on HD DVD. I practically have a collector's item! This absolutely reeks of straw-grabbing; it happened, the BDA should just move on.

Hi,

All I have to say is since the switch,.. I've been buying Paramount Blu Rays more. They are funner to buy now (not enough to make me pick up Aeon Flux but I am considering the fairly poor MI 2 just for kicks)

-Brian

The spin in this forum is dizzying.Maybe you should listen to what is being said.

So if Paramount ditches Blu-ray and cancels sales of discs they've already pressed (Blades of Glory), it's because of a better business model that showed that they were selling fewer units on HD DVD across the board on every single title?HD DVD discs cost way less to create an equivalent title. Paramount is losing money on both formats at this point. They cut losses on the most expensive to create.

Granted, the numbers being discussed here are small enough to be laughable in a serious business context, but this logical doublespeak of ridiculing the Blu-ray disc sales while simultaneously championing why HD DVD was so much better for them boggles my mind. It's a wonder how some folks get up in the morning around here without imploding from their own self-created paradoxes.You just said it - sales of both are laughable. As JeffY pointed out - creating BD-J interactivity to match HD DVD on a given title would blow away any additional sales revenue. Add to that larger replication costs, and the losses for BD titles are larger than HD-DVD per disc. Those two things are not going to change in the next year.

Paramount's decision may have been influenced by many things, but I sincerely doubt the overwhelming volume of their HD DVD discs was one of them.Volume on both sides is pitiful. Paramount is losing considerably less on HD DVD titles per disc. Simple.

Does anyone else find that some of these numbers are hard to believe? I thought MI:II would have sold more than 1200 copies on both blu-ray and HD DVD. Wasn't the MI series one of the best sellers back when released?

After all there are 4 million PS3s out there...

If true though, both sides need unification or cheap dual format players. This is ridiculous.

Volume on both sides is pitiful. Paramount is losing considerably less on HD DVD titles per disc. Simple.
Isn't that the operative point though? They're losing money, period. End of story. If the studios were to tell the truth, I would hazard that most of the studios, with possibly the exception of Warner, are bleeding red ink all over their HDM sales, regardless of which side of the fence they happen to be on.

That doesn't do anything to explain why discs that were evidently already pressed were never sent out to fill pre-orders. If this were a purely accounting-based P/L decision, they should have wanted to at least recoup what costs they've incurred.

Ergo, there was something else that triggered that decision; namely, some form of incentives. You can bury your head in the sand all you like, but the evidence is plain for everyone to see.

What is the source of those figures?

Was it from Paramount? Is the disparity as large as BD camp makes it out to be? Or has it been a "selective" marketing exercise?

Unless its from Paramount, I would refrain from reading too much into these figures.

CH-DVD is a real effort to push "HD DVD"-like disc in the Chinese market... probably they see the success of this as an imminent threat?

considering these charts most likely include sales numbers, up to and PAST the date of Paramount going HD-DVD exclusive, I think it's safe to say that the numbers are Screwed. For the simple fact that when it was announced that Paramount is going HD-DVD exclusive, BD owners were making a mad dash to pick up Paramount titles, before they would no longer be available.
Listen people, Statistitions can make the numbers look good for themselves, regardless of what's really going on. Number can always and will always be screwed in favor of whoever is releases said numbers.

I'm guessing these are 2007 numbers only because MI:3 sold well in 2006 (it was in fact one of the largest selling discs in 2006).

Edit: It actually says "for this year". SI figures would be much much closer.

Those figures are from a Camalot Music in Dadeland Mall in Miami.

(Just kidding.)

Isn't that the operative point though? They're losing money, period. End of story. If the studios were to tell the truth, I would hazard that most of the studios, with possibly the exception of Warner, are bleeding red ink all over their HDM sales, regardless of which side of the fence they happen to be on.Agreed. Except I would say Warner is losing money as well.

That doesn't do anything to explain why discs that were evidently already pressed were never sent out to fill pre-orders. If this were a purely accounting-based P/L decision, they should have wanted to at least recoup what costs they've incurred.What, 4 or 5 titles were in the can ready to go? If so, they would have shipped 100,000 copies of 4-5 titles to retailers, only to sell 20,000 copies @ $20 retail, for $400,000. After retailers take their share, that leaves what, $200,000? That's dust. I'm sure Toshiba would have picked up that tab.

Ergo, there was something else that triggered that decision; namely, some form of incentives. You can bury your head in the sand all you like, but the evidence is plain for everyone to see.Of course there were incentives, ON BOTH SIDES. I never argued otherwise. But BD supporters don't know what form those incentives take. Joint marketing funds? Free copies of titles with hardware purchases? I'm sure Toshiba DID NOT give them $150 million in suitcases, saying do with this as you wish.

Point is, Paramount made a choice. All studios REALLY want to see HDM succeed, for at least four reasons.

1) They want to resell their titles all over again for a profit.

2) They want better copy protection than DVD offers.

3) They want internet connectivity to bring consumers to their web sites so they can sell them more crap (going forward it's all about eyeballs on the web site).

4) They want robust interactivity at low cost. BD authoing must be a mess considering 1.0,1.1 and 2.0 players have to be taken into consideration.

The biggest "logical paradox" (to use your words) is "why would Paramount lengthen the format war indefinitely by taking incentives when they REALLY want HDM to succeed?" "Why didn't they go BD exclusive, and end the war right now?"

HD DVD is much closer to providing what Paramount wants. A cheaper to produce format - easier to provide net connectivity, cheaper players, substantially less authoring costs, and more eyeballs on their web site. Incentives just made it an easier choice.

So, where is this elusive 2:1 lead? Looks like that 2:1 lead has diminished and appears that it will only get worst as we close out the year. Didn't BDA out sell 300 2:1 only a few weeks ago? As you can see this 2:1 lead doesn't reflect on other titles, gee no surprise there. Looks like P&DW made a good call going HD exclusive as we see this huge lead disappear .

The release dates are wrong on some of the titles. Some by more then 6 months.

If you do take those charts as accurate, then it shows the BDA lead eroding rapidly from their alleged 2:1 down to 1.5:1.

Paramount doesn't care what the numbers are today, they are planning for what the numbers will be tomorrow, and they dumped Blu-ray preemptively because they see the writing on the wall.

Why is there a "Blu-ray Disc Association" in the lower left of those images? Were those caps taken in Beatboy's basement? Since when is Warner providing sales figures to the BDA?

While we're on the topic of sales, lets look at something accurate and current:
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5526/300kz9.png

The numbers that I want to see are how may copies they had to print and distribute in order to achieve even these sales numbers.

When you consider that stores like Best Buy likely carried two or three copies of titles like 'Failure to Launch' in each format, Paramount has to have lost their shirts on some of these titles. In this case, one could argue that the motive to shift to support of a single format was to slow the bleeding while the HD market develops.

omg - give it up already BDA. you got DUMPED !! accept it and move on. No amount of charts can tell the world that Paramount and Dreanworks DUMPED you because HD DVD has better business model.

Coming up with paramount only titles and in a presentation to the press proof nothing but BD desperation. The public is not as stupid as BDA think. They know there is more than unit titles sold. Paramount can sell 70K HD DVD titles vs 130K BD titles til date but that says poo if HD DVD titles took $7 per unit to make as compared to $15 per BD. So sorry. Try again ;)

Great business model. Perpetually second place behind Blu-Ray.:rolleyes:

But hey, at least you can keep your eyes on them.:D

Missions,

Except that as blumoon pointed out, no one said that HD was outselling BD on a disc basis. OTOH, looking at those numbers, they are pretty equivalent (the difference is only about 4K per month).

However, as Midnight points out, the income from the two could be the same, or HD might actually be more profitable depending on the costs to put out a disc.

Revealing chart. BRD outselling HD DVD by a few thousand copies for each title. That's ONE for BR. However, factor in higher duplication costs for BR, the "penalty" of carrying two low-performing formats instead of one, and the costs of advertising and distribution, and HD DVD jumps out as the better choice for Paramount's bottom line.:cool:

Revealing chart. BRD outselling HD DVD by a few thousand copies for each title. That's ONE for BR. However, factor in higher duplication costs for BR, the "penalty" of carrying two low-performing formats instead of one, and the costs of advertising and distribution, and HD DVD jumps out as the better choice for Paramount's bottom line.:cool:

"Incentives" don't hurt either.

Great business model. Perpetually second place behind Blu-Ray.:rolleyes:

But hey, at least you can keep your eyes on them.:D

This is exactly the kind of thinking I want BD bois to CONTINUE with. Keep thinking about the now instead of the future.:D

Since the pictures of the charts are labeled "Blu-Ray Disc Association" at the bottom I think I will take them with a grain of salt for the moment.

- Tom

Does anyone else find that some of these numbers are hard to believe? I thought MI:II would have sold more than 1200 copies on both blu-ray and HD DVD. Wasn't the MI series one of the best sellers back when released?

After all there are 4 million PS3s out there...

If true though, both sides need unification or cheap dual format players. This is ridiculous.

Pitiful numbers aren't they?

People just don't realize that BOTH formats are selling about 60,000 discs per week* . . total . . for both formats! . . with almost 600 titles between them.

* Number stated at IFA at the beginning of the month.

That is why 300 is such a big deal. Over 300K on both formats and still selling like hotcakes.

This is exactly the kind of thinking I want BD bois to CONTINUE with. Keep thinking about the now instead of the future.:D

When I see ANY evidence that remotely resembles a change, I'll consider it.:D

Since the pictures of the charts are labeled "Blu-Ray Disc Association" at the bottom I think I will take them with a grain of salt for the moment.

- Tom

Exactly.

And those are not "Since Inception" numbers -- they are numbers from this year. A number of the titles were released LAST year.

I can say this much cause I really dont care what color paramounts titles are released in. When the 150 million runs dry you can bet ur azz that paramount will start releasing on BD again..

This shows one thing for sure - both formats are failing. The highest selling Paramount title sold less then 25k copies. That is gross.

That is very disappointing when you consider how many BD and HD DVD players are already in consumer's homes. If things don't pick up a lot in Q4 I don't know how much more hope of mainstream success I'll have for either format.

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/BDVSHD-ZY.jpg

Nice slide.

1) Two Panasonic logos on the BD side
2) Five Sony logos (including Vaio) on the BD side.
3) Samsung has a combo player out. How come they aren't in the middle?
4) I bought an Acer laptop w/HD DVD for work last week. Where are they?
5) Where is Dreamworks logo?
6) Why is EA logo on BD side?
7) Where is Alco logo?
8) Where is Onkyo logo?
9) Where is Studio Canal?
10) No media on HD DVD side?

Does the BDA really think people are that stupid?

I would expect that Q4 will double the amount of HD & BD players in consumers homes, if sony brings us a $399 PS3 this could surely help our cause along with the cheapo HD players coming from venturer..

When I see ANY evidence that remotely resembles a change, I'll consider it.:D
This sounds typical of BD fanbois. It reminds me when there is a hurricane coming, there are some who hang out at the beach saying "I don't understand. The weather looks good to me."

In this case, the level 5 hurricane is HD DVD and BD fanbois are frolicking on the beach because they can't understand the weather will change.

Quote "That is why 300 is such a big deal. Over 300K on both formats and still selling like hotcakes."

I'm amazed by that as that title was just a rental for me.

-Brian

This sounds typical of BD fanbois. It reminds me when there is a hurricane coming, there are some who hang out at the beach saying "I don't understand. The weather looks good to me."

In this case, the level 5 hurricane is HD DVD and BD fanbois are frolicking on the beach because they can't understand the weather will change.

As I said, if there was anything on the radar even resembling a change, I'd consider it. Since we're using nature analogies, the only thing I see on the horizon is the Blu tidal wave coming Q4.

Does the BDA really think people are that stupid?

Why, yes they do. Its their target audience.

As I said, if there was anything on the radar even resembling a change, I'd consider it. Since we're using nature analogies, the only thing I see on the horizon is the Blu tidal wave coming Q4.


I'll agree that the BDA has some great titles coming out in Q4 but HD DVD does as well, its anyones game at this point. Q4 will turn out to be very important for both sides..

I think Paramount made a wise choice:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2436/amazonplayerssept29xc6.png

I'll agree that the BDA has some great titles coming out in Q4 but HD DVD does as well, its anyones game at this point. Q4 will turn out to be very important for both sides..

This we can both agree on.:D

I have said this before, $130 difference will not determin the outcome of this format war, most people that buy into this do a bit of research and the research will show that the A2/A3 is not a 1080P player.. So, lets compare apples to apples..

Since the pictures of the charts are labeled "Blu-Ray Disc Association" at the bottom I think I will take them with a grain of salt for the moment.

- TomConsidering these slides were made up after Paramount left I would wholeheartedly agree. And how would the BDA know Paramount's sales numbers for every title?

Very suspect.

If we look at the results they show that both formats are not selling. It is time to come out with low cost HD disks and really low cost players if HD disks are ever to take off.

I have said this before, $130 difference will not determin the outcome of this format war, most people that buy into this do a bit of research and the research will show that the A2/A3 is not a 1080P player.. So, lets compare apples to apples..Lets compare.

Will that same research turn up that the BD players are profile 1.0 (i.e. half-baked)?

Those numbers make me weep for HDM in general.

I have said this before, $130 difference will not determin the outcome of this format war, most people that buy into this do a bit of research and the research will show that the A2/A3 is not a 1080P player.. So, lets compare apples to apples..

$130 difference? You wish. Try $200+

And over 80% of the installed HDTV's can't do 1080P so is BD chasing a 20% market while HD DVD is chasing an 80% market?

And if your HDTV can do de-interlacing as it was designed to then you will see no difference feeding a 1080P display either 1080i or 1080p. BOTH have the exact same resolution - 1920x1080.

Apples to apples . . HD movie to HD movie. You can depend on your specs all you want. Just step out of the lab and enter the real world . . where they mean nothing.

Those numbers make me weep for HDM in general.


I agree both formats better start moving or we wont have to worry about either...

If we look at the results they show that both formats are not selling. It is time to come out with low cost HD disks and really low cost players if HD disks are ever to take off.

As long as an HDM title is $1.00 more than a DVD title - you are asking the consumer to make a choice with his wallet.

And yes - it really does look like at this point in time that HDM is destined to be LD Part II.

$130 difference? You wish. Try $200+

And over 80% of the installed HDTV's can't do 1080P so is BD chasing a 20% market while HD DVD is chasing an 80% market?

And if your HDTV can do de-interlacing as it was designed to then you will see no difference feeding a 1080P display either 1080i or 1080p. BOTH have the exact same resolution - 1920x1080.

Apples to apples . . HD movie to HD movie. You can depend on your specs all you want. Just step out of the lab and enter the real world . . where they mean nothing.

Since you can now get an A2 online or at a B&M store for $149 (if you include a $100 gift card), the difference is even more!

As I said, if there was anything on the radar even resembling a change, I'd consider it. Since we're using nature analogies, the only thing I see on the horizon is the Blu tidal wave coming Q4.

The same ol 1.5-1 wave?:rolleyes:

Man what a huge wave!

Format wars aside, some of those numbers are pitiful.

Lets compare.

Will that same research turn up that the BD players are profile 1.0 (i.e. half-baked)?

I hear this all to often, and it means nothing when I play a movie in my BD player it looks and sounds as good, if not better than my HD DVD movies and to think about it I have had fewer bugs/glitches with my 1.0 BD player than I have with my HD DVD player..

Format wars aside, some of those numbers are pitiful.


SOME? Try ALL!

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

What?! Well, I was actually at IFA, and grabbed this picture myself:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IMG_5655.jpg

So who do we believe?

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

What?! Well, I was actually at IFA, and grabbed this picture myself:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IMG_5655.jpg

So who do we believe?

The BDA slide is funny as hell. Sounds like some of the format war forum speak. It talks about a BUY off, etc. Wow they are getting desperate.

omg - give it up already BDA. you got DUMPED !! accept it and move on. No amount of charts can tell the world that Paramount and Dreanworks DUMPED you because HD DVD has better business model.

Coming up with paramount only titles and in a presentation to the press proof nothing but BD desperation. The public is not as stupid as BDA think. They know there is more than unit titles sold. Paramount can sell 70K HD DVD titles vs 130K BD titles til date but that says poo if HD DVD titles took $7 per unit to make as compared to $15 per BD. So sorry. Try again ;)
.

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

What?! Well, I was actually at IFA, and grabbed this picture myself:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IMG_5655.jpg

So who do we believe?

It is also interesting how the BDA mentions Acer joining the BDA, but conveniently leaves that off the HD DVD slide.

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/hd-bd-ln.jpg

I like the http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/images/nodrink.gif through the comparison between BD-J and HDi (they didn't get the memo that it's HDi).

That "they don't compare" will come back and bite them in the ass when studio web sites are up and running, and HD DVD users are downloading fresh content.

The BDA slide is funny as hell. Sounds like some of the format war forum speak. It talks about a BUY off, etc. Wow they are getting desperate.It's like - "hey, we are lying through our teeth, but please buy our products anyway".

How Typical :rolleyes:

The Bluray Disc Association is out there making it own news again.

I find it sick that they hold a huge press conference like that to again try to prove that Paramount didn't have any reasons for dropping Bluray.

Isn't it interesting that ALL they seem to want to talk about at the presentation is who THEIR friends are, and why they'll obviously win because they've got bigger partners.

NOTHING about fixing the various problems that don't work with the format.

It seems it was a presentation to the Chinese - do they think that the Chinese won't find out the problems that they aren't talking about?

Even THIS picture they can't bear to get right. They don't have Samsung in the middle, now a bunch of studios, and also forget to put half of the HD DVD exclsuive supporters as well :rolleyes:

When are they going to start to be honest?

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/BDVSHD-ZY.jpg

HDi used to be called iHD - just a note on that.

BD+ . . . which title has BD+?

Where is the Dreamworks Animation studio logo?

Where is the Weinstein logo?

Isn't HP making HD DVD equipped LPT's?

Even THIS picture they can't bear to get right. They don't have Samsung in the middle, now a bunch of studios, and also forget to put half of the HD DVD exclsuive supporters as well :rolleyes:

When are they going to start to be honest?

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/BDVSHD-ZY.jpg

They put Lionsgate and MGM for Blu-Ray but they don't put Weintstein or Dreamworks for HD DVD? What about Onkyo for CE on the HD DVD side? And Acer in the neutral?

I just rattled these out from the top of my head, I know I'm missing a few.

The same ol 1.5-1 wave?:rolleyes:

Man what a huge wave!


I was talking more about releases, but thanks for bringing up the sales lead.:D

That whole BDA presentation is full of lies and deliberate ommissions. They are just sick in the head.

And then they are upset when their credibility is in the tank.

They are liars and twisters, IMO. They have got so MANY mistruths in that presentation it would be TRULY emabrassing to ANYONE else but them. Except THEY seem to feel that they have the right to lie. They think everyone is stupid.

Shame on the BDA - they have kept silent recently, then come out with this SAD, poorly planned, and innaccurate presentation!

What a load...

And that quote "deny buyoff - Mr Fuji admitted giving money" - some CHILD puts churlish crap like that in a corporate presentation. Someone would be FIRED INSTANTLY in my company for putting immature sh*t like that in a presentation with our name on it. It makes them look VERY BAD...

Truly astonishing, truly astonishing. It's like the blu-ray.com fans put the presentation together...http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

What?! Well, I was actually at IFA, and grabbed this picture myself:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IMG_5655.jpg

So who do we believe?

]http://www.iconbazaar.com/alphabets/animated/spin/spin-s_a.gifhttp://www.iconbazaar.com/alphabets/animated/spin/spin-p_a.gifhttp://www.iconbazaar.com/alphabets/animated/spin/spin-i_a.gifhttp://www.iconbazaar.com/alphabets/animated/spin/spin-n_a.gif

I couldn't help but notice under "this phase" - "BDA phase 关 high 层 专 访: 08 year global BD shadow 碟 desk 达 10,000,000 unit"

Are they REALLY saying they'll sell 10 million Standalone players in 2008?????

What are they taking?

I couldn't help but notice under "this phase" - "BDA phase 关 high 层 专 访: 08 year global BD shadow 碟 desk 达 10,000,000 unit"

Are they REALLY saying they'll sell 10 million Standalone players in 2008?????

What are they taking?

They are using PS3 numbers.

I think it's amazing that they've gone over to China and held this huge meeting and made such total asses of themselves.

They seem to have made this presentation to the Chinese as though they are dealing with a bunch of kids that'll never see through some of the rubbish they have presented.

I'm amazed they would treat the Chinese with such little respect for their intelligence.

Oh yah! Notice the sign behind them "...MEDIA round table". They'll say anything as long as they can convince someone to print it... There oughta be a law ;)

I couldn't help but notice under "this phase" - "BDA phase 关 high 层 专 访: 08 year global BD shadow 碟 desk 达 10,000,000 unit"

Are they REALLY saying they'll sell 10 million Standalone players in 2008?????

What are they taking?


No - PS3's - they are going to have shipped 10 million PS3's in the timeframe they say they will.

Of course the retailers are already choking on excess inventory, but Sony doesn't care - just get them into the pipeline so they can claim they "sold" 10 million PS3's.

Too bad there is VG Chartz - who like Nielsen tracks sales of games and game consoles via the retailers POS system and tells anyone who wants to know exactly how many are being purchased by consumers . . .

As opposed to shipped by manufacturers.

Nice try BDA, shows how insecure you are in displaying such sour apples... I don't know, if it was me, I wouldn't brag about selling such small numbers to an over 2.5 million installed base, but that's just me...

As always, playing the mind game. Let's see how far it'll come back in their face.

HDi used to be called iHD - just a note on that.

BD+ . . . which title has BD+?

Where is the Dreamworks Animation studio logo?

Where is the Weinstein logo?

Isn't HP making HD DVD equipped LPT's?


HP up to very recently were NOT releasing any BR-equipped PCs. As a matter of fact the only way to get BR with HP is to also get HD DVD... That's the future anyway, dual format for everything. The sooner those spoiled brats from the BDA realize it, the more chance HDM will have a real future. As it stands, they're only shooting themselves in the foot.

HD DVD might have been more profitable or more generous?

It was a quick decision on Paramount's part to abandon Blu-ray. If manufacturing Blu-ray discs was too costly, how costly was it when they recalled all copies of Blades of Glory in BD.

Hey, I don't want to get into a big debate. I'm pro-HD not just pro Blu-ray. I'm thinking about getting the A35 next month.

I'm just saying that there's more to Paramount's decision than what they're admitting that's all.

i dont think paramounts decision was quick[as you put it].
studios tend to think a like.if you read warners statement you see they watching q4 then make a decision come 2008.
paramounts decision was all the reasons they said.
in deals like theses money is always part of it sony does the same thing.
besides warner may end up going blue... who really knows until it happens.
enjoy what got now,and stop worrying about things you dont know about right now...relax

I hear this all to often, and it means nothing when I play a movie in my BD player it looks and sounds as good, if not better than my HD DVD movies and to think about it I have had fewer bugs/glitches with my 1.0 BD player than I have with my HD DVD player..

Of course it means nothing to you, otherwise it would be admitting you got robbed. And nobody wants to look like a fool, right ? Thank god BDA can just keep drawning the issue under an ocean of spin and gloating, that way the public at large will never really come to their senses. Whoever controls information controls its people. Never been more true than in this day and age of misinformation and propaganda at every corner.

Wow, even the BDA is in the buisness of flamebait. Some of those things written on the HD DVD side are just outright misinformation.

EA exclusive to Playstation?

Toshiba strategy (optical media not the key)?

I assume that's Universal music on the BDA side, what?

Succesful booth? Since when does a better booth amount to anything, and why say no HD DVD joint booth when according to they're slide Toshiba is alone in this? How was BDA's showing at Digital Life?

There's plenty more to pick apart but after following Sonys tactics for years flat out lies are buisness as usual.

Simply amazing. They must be very worried to throw that much damage control into one presentation.:D

As long as an HDM title is $1.00 more than a DVD title - you are asking the consumer to make a choice with his wallet.

And yes - it really does look like at this point in time that HDM is destined to be LD Part II.

When I gauge the general interest around me for HDM, I can't help but think that's where we're headed. Nobody gives a damn about HDM, not even my co-workers who own a PS3.

Maybe lowering the titles' prices would go a long way towards adoption...

When I gauge the general interest around me for HDM, I can't help but think that's where we're headed. Nobody gives a damn about HDM, not even my co-workers who own a PS3.

Maybe lowering the titles' prices would go a long way towards adoption...

+1

Great business model. Perpetually second place behind Blu-Ray.:rolleyes:

But hey, at least you can keep your eyes on them.:D

It's called "cutting your losses". When a BR plant can only muster a 10 to 50% yield on subsidized BD50 replication and the subsidy is about to run out, you start planning for the future...

I have said this before, $130 difference will not determin the outcome of this format war, most people that buy into this do a bit of research and the research will show that the A2/A3 is not a 1080P player.. So, lets compare apples to apples..

And how many people do own a 1080p capable TV ? And among these, how many can see any difference between a 1080i or 1080p signal when the display de-interlaces the 1080i itself, resulting in 1080p either way ?

How in the hell is Babel the top selling title? Ugh.

Wow, even the BDA is in the buisness of flamebait. Some of those things written on the HD DVD side are just outright misinformation.

EA exclusive to Playstation?

Toshiba strategy (optical media not the key)?

I assume that's Universal music on the BDA side, what?

Succesful booth? Since when does a better booth amount to anything, and why say no HD DVD joint booth when according to they're slide Toshiba is alone in this? How was BDA's showing at Digital Life?

There's plenty more to pick apart but after following Sonys tactics for years flat out lies are buisness as usual.

Simply amazing. They must be very worried to throw that much damage control into one presentation.:DEven *I* am in shock at how much lies and misinformation are in these slides and this whole presentation. It is a completely new level of lies for this bunch.

They really give the Chinese no credit for having the intelligence to follow this up. I don't know what the reasons are, but they have lied to them beyond anything I have seen before in any other presentation anywhere else in the world.

I really wish that someone would email links to this thread, and some of the corrections, to all the journalists that were there for that China press conference.

I think misrepresentation on this SCALE by the BDA truly SHOWS how concerned and shocked they are by the CHD DVD deal recently made. They seem to be trying to use lies to the press to create local pressure to make the CHD DVD partners re-consider and switch to Bluray instead.

Mind-boggling levels of deception and mis-representation from even the BDA. It truly cannot be overstated how bad this makes them look.

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

So who do we believe?

Also found it funny that HP and Acer both have laptops with HD DVD drives and while they are listed as 1-4 on (with Dell and Lenovo) on the BDA side the HD DVD side gets

"Many unknown manufacturers" and "Said there are many PCs equipped with HD DVD (incorrect)"

Also find it humorous that in THIS slide apparently Alpine, Onkyo, Venturer (Alco) and Samsung have HD DVD product but in the "support" slide they don't.

"Overwhelming in New Models, IT, Software Support, China Support"

New Models - All (except Denon) still 1.0 profile. Announce them fast or else you may have to make a product that is 1.1 compliant.

IT - Huh? I am in IT and have yet to see "Overwhelming" anything by either side. They both have some laptops and some software that lets you create BD and HD discs. BD has some $500 burners that nobody in IT will even look at as it is cheaper ways to do do backup

Software Support - Is having ONE software package that doesn't support HD DVD (Adobe) vs the 10 or so other ones that do "Overwhelming"

China Support - Umm didn't China just choose CH DVD (China HD DVD) as it's own format?

Agreed - the HD DVD group should send out a message immediate, or hold an equivalent press conference immediately, to SHOW UP all these lies and misrepresentations to the same media folks.

That would show the Chinese press, right from the start, what sort of reliable information they can expect from the BDA - it'll make them a laughing stock and create permanent deep suspicion of anything they say.

I'm serious, they should do this immediately. Send people to each of the journalists offices and take them to lunch. Prepare an equivalent set of slides and put them side-by-side with those from the BDA presentation and directly attack their credibility, as well as telling the journalists the true picture.

BDA rep take questions after round table presentation...:)



http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/bobshark.jpg

It should come as no surprise that Sony would make a huge play for China, esp. after seeing the support coming out of that country for HD DVD.

The sheer amount of misinformation shown in that presentation though would be bordering on criminal if it were shown to investors here in the US.

Sony seems to have trouble accepting that BD simply costs more than HD DVD. This higher cost not only effcts the consumers but the movie industry as well.

It costs more to make the media as well as the players. And while they are passing some of the additional cost of the player production on to the consumer, with the media right now the extra production costs are being eaten up by the film industry and distributors.

And with the lousy sales on both sides of the format fence, it is no surprise that Paramount would want to bleed less money over time by dropping the more expensive format esp if the HD backers offered them incentives to help offset their production losses over the next year or two.

The additional cost of producing media was one of the major factors in swinging so much Chinese support over to the HD side of the fence already, that and the fact that the existing DVD manufacturing facilities in China can be converted at almost zero cost over to the production of HD media while going Blu would have meant expensive changes to the existing processes.

And if the Chinese adopt the HD drive as the standard for HD media for their country then Blu can never see a decisive win as the consumer base in Asia alone will guarantee that the HD format stays around no matter what the overall Blu sales are in the western markets.

Now the BDA has realized that it needs to gain some Chinese support fast because once the introduction of inexpensive Chinese made players begins in the coming quarter into the Chinese market it will allow the HD format to sell virtually uncontested until some variant of a Chinese made Blu machine goes on sale there.

And to add insult to injury, as the production of HD players ramps up in China for their own market, the cost to export those same players to the US and Europe drops as well.

Unfortunately for the BDA, their technology still costs almost twice what the the HD side does to produce and it will be hard for them to convince many companies in China to front the added costs for Blu on their own which means more money will have to be bled out of Sony's pockets if they want to gain any serious support in that market.

Overall it will be an uphill battle for the BDA in the coming months so it is not surprising in the least that they would attempt to spin every piece of data they can find in order to try to make their side look like the favorite to win.

However, as China has a long history distrusting the Japanese I would be shocked if anyone at that presentation were to take any of those "facts" at face value.

The spin in this forum is dizzying.

So if Paramount ditches Blu-ray and cancels sales of discs they've already pressed (Blades of Glory), it's because of a better business model that showed that they were selling fewer units on HD DVD across the board on every single title?

It may be Paramount views Bluray as a fad. Something that exploded on the release of PS3.. sold a ton of media.. and then started to fizzle.

Prime examples would be Tamagachis, Pet Rocks, etc. They all sold incredibly well right out of the gate and then fizzled.

Paramount likely feels BD is going to be a fizzler (i.e. UMD, MiniDisc etc.) -- They have a choice.. stick with the explosion and make their money now, but then lose out in the future when the fizzles comes. Or... lose out on the burst of cash now but know that in a few years you'll have stuck with the true winner and will have made quadruple the explosion cash.

While we're on the topic of sales, lets look at something accurate and current:
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5526/300kz9.png

Amazon sales rankings have been shown time and time again that they do not accurately reflect total market sales. Nielson Videoscan data for the week ending 09/23 (inclusive in the timeframe of your amazon sales ranking graph) shows the following in regards to 300 on HD:

1. Troy: Director's Cut [Blu-ray] 100.00
2. 300 [Blu-ray] 98.63
6. 300 [HD DVD/DVD] 49.10

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showpost.php?p=337956&postcount=872

Now, how does that stack up against the Amazon sales rankings for that week? According to Amazon, the HD DVD outsold the Blu-ray version by an unknown percentage. According to Nielson Videoscan data, the Blu-ray outsold the HD DVD version by slightly more than a 2:1 ratio. One is accurate and one is not. I'll let you figure out which is which.

$130 difference? You wish. Try $200+

And over 80% of the installed HDTV's can't do 1080P so is BD chasing a 20% market while HD DVD is chasing an 80% market?

And if your HDTV can do de-interlacing as it was designed to then you will see no difference feeding a 1080P display either 1080i or 1080p. BOTH have the exact same resolution - 1920x1080.

Apples to apples . . HD movie to HD movie. You can depend on your specs all you want. Just step out of the lab and enter the real world . . where they mean nothing.

Thats great lee but when the average person buys a new tv every 5 years and pretty much all new hdtv's are 1080p where does that leave your crappy 1080i player and when you go to a store they aren't selling you on 1080i they are pushing the 1080p as the best, Go to a store and ask the guy in electronics what he prefers 1080i or p and i bet 9 out of 10 will say the 1080p.

Is it really surprising that HD sales would be higher on Amazon over the past month than Blu?

I mean with all the promotions they ran on HD DVD players it stands to reason that some of those sales came from their "get free disks of your choice" promotion as well as sales from people who purchased their players through Amazon and came back to buy media.

While we're on the topic of sales, lets look at something accurate and current:

Good idea :)

There we go:

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x291/guyin85606/hmm0930.jpg

*waiting for the SPIN

Thats great lee but when the average person buys a new tv every 5 years and pretty much all new hdtv's are 1080p where does that leave your crappy 1080i player and when you go to a store they aren't selling you on 1080i they are pushing the 1080p as the best, Go to a store and ask the guy in electronics what he prefers 1080i or p and i bet 9 out of 10 will say the 1080p.

Here you go . . .

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/0807061080iv1080p/

Also are you saying HDVD Will never flag protect 1080p content? so when the flag comes on for hdmi have fun with your tv's not getting to use they're optimum resolution.

Thats great lee but when the average person buys a new tv every 5 years and pretty much all new hdtv's are 1080p where does that leave your crappy 1080i player and when you go to a store they aren't selling you on 1080i they are pushing the 1080p as the best, Go to a store and ask the guy in electronics what he prefers 1080i or p and i bet 9 out of 10 will say the 1080p.

It leaves them to spend about $75 on a 1080p HD player because that is where the price will be in five years.

And that $75 player will not only be far less expensive that the 1080p players of "today" but be faster as well.

It will almost certainly have more features and may even support media standards which don't exist today which could potentially make today's 1080p machine obsolete by that point (1440p perhaps?).

Basically the concept of "Buy the best today and be futureproof against tomorrow" doesn't wash where HDM is concerned when you consider just how quickly things have been changing.

So yes, it makes a LOT more sense for someone who owns a 720p or 1080i machine today to buy a cheaper player that only supports those resolutions and simply wait to buy a 1080p machine at some point in the future after the get around to upgrading their set.

If you are buying a new 1080p set today or plan to in the next couple of months and you have the extra cash for a 1080p player then it isn't a bad choice but for all the millions who already own a 720p display (and aren't planning to upgrade in the next couple of years, like myself) then buying a less expensive 1080i player may make a lot more sense.

Also are you saying HDVD Will never flag protect 1080p content? so when the flag comes on for hdmi have fun with your tv's not getting to use they're optimum resolution.

Yep - that's what Amir said.

...Nielson Videoscan data for the week ending 09/23 (inclusive in the timeframe of your amazon sales ranking graph) shows the following in regards to 300 on HD
So if Nielsen Videoscan shows data favorable to the BDA, and Amazon shows the opposite, then Amazon must not be correct? Interesting theory that aligns well with the BDA version of math and logic.

Is Walmart, the larget retailer in the world, included in the Nielson numbers? Is Amazon? Where is the definitive list of what is included in Nielsen? I'll answer: It's not published. We know Walmart is not included. It is suggested that Amazon may or may not be included.

Bottom line is at least with the Amazon numbers we know exactly what is included, which are the numbers from the largest online retailer in the world. If those numbers do not make the BDA happy, that does not make them inaccurate. Hiding from the truth does not make it go away.

Is it really surprising that HD sales would be higher on Amazon over the past month than Blu?

I mean with all the promotions they ran on HD DVD players it stands to reason that some of those sales came from their "get free disks of your choice" promotion as well as sales from people who purchased their players through Amazon and came back to buy media.

If I am not mistaken EVERY "buy a player get x number of discs of your choice" promotion that Amazon has run has been on both sides of the aisle. If you buy a BD player you get BD discs, if you buy a HD DVD player you get HD DVD discs.

That being said I am more inclined to think that more people on the HD DVD side got in on the 10% off deal because BD players at that time were $1000. The deal was over when $500 BD players hit the market so more HD DVD folks will be utilizing this offer (I know I do)

So if Nielsen Videoscan shows data favorable to the BDA, and Amazon shows the opposite, then Amazon must not be correct? Interesting theory that aligns well with the BDA version of math and logic.

Is Walmart, the larget retailer in the world, included in the Nielson numbers? Is Amazon? Where is the definitive list of what is included in Nielsen? I'll answer: It's not published. We know Walmart is not included. It is suggested that Amazon may or may not be included.

Bottom line is at least with the Amazon numbers we know exactly what is included, which are the numbers from the largest online retailer in the world. If those numbers do not make the BDA happy, that does not make them inaccurate. Hiding from the truth does not make it go away.

Amazon is included in the Nielsens . . Wal-Mart is not.

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/BDVSHD-ZY.jpg

Nice slide.

1) Two Panasonic logos on the BD side
2) Five Sony logos (including Vaio) on the BD side.
3) Samsung has a combo player out. How come they aren't in the middle?
4) I bought an Acer laptop w/HD DVD for work last week. Where are they?
5) Where is Dreamworks logo?
6) Why is EA logo on BD side?
7) Where is Alco logo?
8) Where is Onkyo logo?
9) Where is Studio Canal?
10) No media on HD DVD side?

Does the BDA really think people are that stupid?

yupe - please tell that to the chinese press ;) tell us how BDA organised a press function just to insult the intelegence of the whole of Chinese public ;)

Blu is still sore, lol.

What kinda spin will they have when WB goes HD DVD exclusive?

It's called "cutting your losses". When a BR plant can only muster a 10 to 50% yield on subsidized BD50 replication and the subsidy is about to run out, you start planning for the future...

I'm sure you can give me a credible link?

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IFA-BDHD.jpg

"HD DVD: no entry from European independent labels"

What?! Well, I was actually at IFA, and grabbed this picture myself:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/lyris1/IMG_5655.jpg

So who do we believe?

and the BD fanbois accuse hd dvd boys of bullying them ? take a look at the above quote? the amount of deliberate lies on their presentation slide to make HD DVD look bad... I never thought that BDA are the desperate ;)

yupe - please tell that to the chinese press ;) tell us how BDA organised a press function just to insult the intelegence of the whole of Chinese public ;)

No, they apparently staged a media event to garner support.

However based upon those charts, they used unscrupulous business practices and blatant lies in order to attempt to skew the "facts" in their favor.

I have to admit, as someone on the fence debating which way to jump, seeing the BDA misrepresent themselves so thoroughly to people whom they want to become "business partners" with makes me less likely to want to do business with them as a customer.

Thank you to whoever posted those pictures, you may have helped to make my decision for me.

Amazon is included in the Nielsens . . Wal-Mart is not.
I know about Walmart, but how do you know about Amazon? The only evidence I've seen about Amazon is a few AVS'ers from time to time say "Amazon is included", or "Amazon is not included".

I have never seen a recent published list by Nielsen that indicates what retailers are included in their charts. We know the #1 retailer is NOT included. If you don't know exactly what goes into their charts, what good are they?

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/hd-bd-ln.jpg

I like the http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/images/nodrink.gif through the comparison between BD-J and HDi (they didn't get the memo that it's HDi).

That "they don't compare" will come back and bite them in the ass when studio web sites are up and running, and HD DVD users are downloading fresh content.

It's like - "hey, we are lying through our teeth, but please buy our products anyway".

notice that even die hard bd fans are too disgusted to defend BDA on this site ;) . I think the presentation just made few BD fans becoming neutral or worst exclusive to HD DVD. Well done BDA, well done !! ;)

I know about Walmart, but how do you know about Amazon? The only evidence I've seen about Amazon is a few AVS'ers from time to time say "Amazon is included", or "Amazon is not included".

I have never seen a recent published list by Nielsen that indicates what retailers are included in their charts. We know the #1 retailer is NOT included. If you don't know exactly what goes into their charts, what good are they?

That precisely why they are good. If you aren't sure who is or isn't in the list, it's that much harder to manipulate the ratings.

HDi used to be called iHD - just a note on that.

BD+ . . . which title has BD+?

Where is the Dreamworks Animation studio logo?

Where is the Weinstein logo?

Isn't HP making HD DVD equipped LPT's?

Asus, Acer, HP, Samsung to name a few have all release HD DVD note books ;)

I would say that BDA are burning bridges on Paramount and Dreamworks ;) I doubt the two will go back to BD after 18 months ;)

I know about Walmart, but how do you know about Amazon? The only evidence I've seen about Amazon is a few AVS'ers from time to time say "Amazon is included", or "Amazon is not included".


It was confirmed personally by Judith McCourt, Associate Publisher of Home Media Magazine, half a year ago. We've been through that a dozen times on the Nielsen thread.

What is the source of those figures?

Was it from Paramount? Is the disparity as large as BD camp makes it out to be? Or has it been a "selective" marketing exercise?

Unless its from Paramount, I would refrain from reading too much into these figures.

CH-DVD is a real effort to push "HD DVD"-like disc in the Chinese market... probably they see the success of this as an imminent threat? Is there any indication of what the date range of these figures are and what is the source?

What is the thru date of these sales figures?

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/BDVSHD-ZY.jpg

Nice slide.

1) Two Panasonic logos on the BD side
2) Five Sony logos (including Vaio) on the BD side.
3) Samsung has a combo player out. How come they aren't in the middle?
4) I bought an Acer laptop w/HD DVD for work last week. Where are they?
5) Where is Dreamworks logo?
6) Why is EA logo on BD side?
7) Where is Alco logo?
8) Where is Onkyo logo?
9) Where is Studio Canal?
10) No media on HD DVD side?

Does the BDA really think people are that stupid? How about Microsoft on the HD DVD side as a CE manufacturer (Xbox 360 HD DVD add on has sold more than BD players) or as a gaming console with optional HD DVD support.... :D


nah, lets just leave Microsoft off the slide...... :rolleyes:

How about Microsoft on the HD DVD side as a CE manufacturer (Xbox 360 HD DVD add on has sold more than BD players) or as a gaming console with optional HD DVD support.... :D


nah, lets just leave Microsoft off the slide...... :rolleyes:

The Xbox 360 is listed on the gaming side however you are right in that they should be credited in the CE portion of the slide as well.

It was confirmed personally by Judith McCourt, Associate Publisher of Home Media Magazine, half a year ago. We've been through that a dozen times on the Nielsen thread.
I just finished searching for "Judith McCourt" and I didn't see anything where she says Amazon is included in Nielsen's numbers. I did see some posts by you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10077926&postcount=2924

Maybe it's there and I missed it. Even if it is, the fact the #1 retailer (Walmart) is not included raises questions about what else is not included. Why doesn't Nielsen publicly post a list of exactly what is included?

The Xbox 360 is listed on the gaming side however you are right in that they should be credited in the CE portion of the slide as well. Yeah, hardly noticed it with a white and lime logo on a white slide.

I just finished searching for "Judith McCourt" and I didn't see anything where she says Amazon is included in Nielsen's numbers. I did see some posts by you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10077926&postcount=2924


I asked her by email, she responded by email, I posted the response on the forum.

I just finished searching for "Judith McCourt" and I didn't see anything where she says Amazon is included in Nielsen's numbers. I did see some posts by you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10077926&postcount=2924

Maybe it's there and I missed it. Even if it is, the fact the #1 retailer (Walmart) is not included raises questions about what else is not included. Why doesn't Nielsen publicly post a list of exactly what is included? We've gotten an old list that Nielson/Videoscan sources have confirmed that was valid at the time.

Sources at Nielson/Videoscan have confirmed to me, Grubert and others that Amazon is included in their final numbers and we assume they are in the first report number as well, as they were once listed there.

My Nielson contacts have told me they did not want an up to date list posted on the Internet and that is why they do not have it up on their site. It has small changes constantly and they don't want to be required to keep it current.

The list is sometimes shown as a marketing document to convince people to subscribe for their complete services.

Bottom line its the best information we have, and it will get more accurate as sales volumes increase, but it will never be a 100% capture. We only do really get the first report numbers which ar not as refined nor accurate as the final reported weekly numbers. the YTD a SI numbers incorporate the lat weeks final numbers as well as the first alert current weeks numbers.

PM me for more info if you wish.

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T1.jpg

http://img.zdnet.com.cn/storage/20070930/PR-T2.jpg

Detailed report:

http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530604.shtml

Very valid points and charts as represented by the BD association. Paramount clearly had no reason to join HD-DVD except that they received all the incentives that they got from Toshiba, etc.

I look forward to a BD tidal wave to overwhelm HD-DVD and HD-DVD to be out of the running before next fall.

How about Microsoft on the HD DVD side as a CE manufacturer (Xbox 360 HD DVD add on has sold more than BD players) or as a gaming console with optional HD DVD support.... :D


nah, lets just leave Microsoft off the slide...... :rolleyes:Media:

TDK HD DVD-R Media, 15GB, Movie Case, Single (http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=347017)

http://image.compusa.com/prodimages/2/25646e86-b899-4188-a32e-85f2b3f81460.gif

Very valid points and charts as represented by the BD association. Paramount clearly had no reason to join HD-DVD except that they received all the incentives that they got from Toshiba, etc.

I look forward to a BD tidal wave to overwhelm HD-DVD and HD-DVD to be out of the running before next fall.

:D:D

So if Nielsen Videoscan shows data favorable to the BDA, and Amazon shows the opposite, then Amazon must not be correct? Interesting theory that aligns well with the BDA version of math and logic.

Amazon sales rankings are accurate in regards to that retailer only. If you are looking for data that reflects total market sales then of course Nielson Videoscan is more accurate. You are the one who quoted sales rankings of 300 from a single retailer as "accurate and current" proof that Blu-ray's sales have slipped from a 2:1 ratio to a closer 1.5:1 ratio. You very well may have a valid argument but your evidence sure as heck didn't make the grade.

Bottom line is at least with the Amazon numbers we know exactly what is included, which are the numbers from the largest online retailer in the world. If those numbers do not make the BDA happy, that does not make them inaccurate.

Amazon rankings are far more unreliable than Nielson Videoscan for a variety of reasons. It's a single retailer, they list rankings rather than ratios (ratios are far more accurate than rankings) and they include pre-order sales on upcoming titles which, in effect, taints the rankings of currently available titles.

Okay, let's sum this up. According to Amazon, 300 sold better on HD DVD than on Blu-ray at Amazon.com. According to Nielson Videoscan, 300 on Blu-ray outsold 300 on HD DVD to a 2:1 ratio (includes multiple retailers).

Hiding from the truth does not make it go away.

Well, if you are seeking the truth, you'd be better off trusting the Nielson Videoscan data rather than Amazon sales rankings unless you are hiding from the truth.

We've gotten an old list that Nielson/Videoscan sources have confirmed that was valid at the time.

I saw that list. I remember it was outdated.

The list is sometimes shown as a marketing document to convince people to subscribe for their complete services.
I will accept it for what it is, but I don't think the Nielsen numbers should be embraced blindly and without question as many fanbois do. It is not a sanctioned document. The numbers are collected and sold for profit. The #1 retailer is not included. What other retailers are not included? We don't know because we don't have a list. What chart has value if you don't know exactly what goes into it?

At least with the Amazon numbers, we are not left to guess as to the source of the data.

Very valid points and charts as represented by the BD association. Paramount clearly had no reason to join HD-DVD except that they received all the incentives that they got from Toshiba, etc.

I look forward to a BD tidal wave to overwhelm HD-DVD and HD-DVD to be out of the running before next fall.Do you work for Sony?

Do you work for Sony?


Do you work for Toshiba?

Kosty:

It really doesn't matter does it? The Nielsen's are all we have. Accurate or inaccurate - that's it.

And we also know they mean very little or else P/DW would have stayed neutral if they felt BD was a viable growth format. $150 million in cash and incentives is chicken feed to these multibillion dollar studios.

When the total of the 2 formats per week is roughly 60,000 - then numbers or percentages are meaningless. The can change in an instant with just the sale of one title.

Studios and CEM's don't look at the now . . .no corporation does for fear of getting blind sided by the future. The only companies that care about the now are supermarkets.

And all studios know the future and growth of HDM is going to come from SAL's - not game consoles . . despite how hard the BD fanbois, Sony and the BDA trys to convince anyone.

Does anyone really believe that those custom installers creating $50,000 to $100,000 HT's are going to use a PS3 as the BD player?

Bottom Line: Neither format is setting the world on fire . . quite the opposite - if we believe these disc sale numbers for Paramount and there is no reason not to.

They don't look ANY different then that March 2007 Nielsen full scale report that we saw. I have the link if anyone wants to revisit it.

Amazon sales rankings have been shown time and time again that they do not accurately reflect total market sales. Nielson Videoscan data for the week ending 09/23 (inclusive in the timeframe of your amazon sales ranking graph) shows the following in regards to 300 on HD:

1. Troy: Director's Cut [Blu-ray] 100.00
2. 300 [Blu-ray] 98.63
6. 300 [HD DVD/DVD] 49.10

Now, how does that stack up against the Amazon sales rankings for that week? According to Amazon, the HD DVD outsold the Blu-ray version by an unknown percentage. According to Nielson Videoscan data, the Blu-ray outsold the HD DVD version by slightly more than a 2:1 ratio. One is accurate and one is not. I'll let you figure out which is which.Bull...

Amazon rankings have correlated very well over the long term to HD/BD sales levels through Nielsen. They are not exact, but when Amazon shows that the formats are virtually neck and neck, compared to when Amazon showed BD 5 to 1 against HD, you can bet you bottom dollar that the Nielsen rankings will show similar changes - - And they are.

Do you work for Toshiba?No. Do you work for Sony?

Could all the Bluray fans who have jumped into this thread in the last two pages and taken it completely off topic please get BACK on topic?

The topic is the numbers presented by the BDA in their China press conference - and all the other stuff they tried to state.

Very valid points and charts as represented by the BD association. Paramount clearly had no reason to join HD-DVD except that they received all the incentives that they got from Toshiba, etc.

I look forward to a BD tidal wave to overwhelm HD-DVD and HD-DVD to be out of the running before next fall.Next FALL????

Are you SERIOUS? So since BD lost the war, now you are telling us to wait ANOTHER year?

What about the promised BD domination this christmas? BD have lost, and asking for another year or two has become the standard BD line - pitiful.

Blu is still sore, lol.

What kinda spin will they have when WB goes HD DVD exclusive?

Shouldn't this be posted in the rumor thread? Of course you'd need something to back it up. Which you do, right?:rolleyes:

Shouldn't this be posted in the rumor thread? Of course you'd need something to back it up. Which you do, right?:rolleyes:

I'm not posting this as a rumor.

But I would wager WB announcing they are no longer going to do Combo's after January 8th helps a bit in the 'We are going forward with HD DVD' route.

Next FALL????

Are you SERIOUS? So since BD lost the war, now you are telling us to wait ANOTHER year?

What about the promised BD domination this christmas? BD have lost, and asking for another year or two has become the standard BD line - pitiful.

You seem to forget, many people have been saying 'Universal Neutral CES 08'.

I'm not posting this as a rumor.

But I would wager WB announcing they are no longer going to do Combo's after January 8th helps a bit in the 'We are going forward with HD DVD' route.

Ah that was debunked by WB themselves. Just look st the last issue of The Digital Bits. They said;"We will use Combo's for the foreseeable future." There was no hard cutoff date stated by WB.

You seem to forget, many people have been saying 'Universal Neutral CES 08'.

The same amount (or more) are saying Disney Neutral CES 2008.

Both are BS IMO.

When the total of the 2 formats per week is roughly 60,000 - then numbers or percentages are meaningless.

I'll throw another %age at you.

Population of the USA = c.300,000,000.

60,000 sales a week means that, on average, just 0.02% of the US population buys a high def disc each week.

Steve W

Ah that was debunked by WB themselves. Just look st the last issue of The Digital Bits. They said;"We will use Combo's for the foreseeable future." There was no hard cutoff date stated by WB.

...Yes, because The Digtal Bits is by no means biased. They LOVE HD DVD over there! That's exactly why "The Digital Bits chooses Blu-ray Disc - Click here to read why in The Soapbox" is posted without any updates stating that Paramount and Dreamworks are no longer neutral. Yeah, VERY trusted source. :rolleyes:

You seem to forget, many people have been saying 'Universal Neutral CES 08'.


Yes the same people that said Universal would go neutral at CES 07.

Ah that was debunked by WB themselves. Just look st the last issue of The Digital Bits. They said;"We will use Combo's for the foreseeable future." There was no hard cutoff date stated by WB.
The story first came from Robert:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=262807
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=914750

After that, it was linked to by Bill Hunt.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#nix

Then Bill posted an update indicating he received an email from Warner's PR agency. Weighing this trail, I'll stick to what Robert posted until something more substantial comes along.

...Yes, because The Digtal Bits is by no means biased. They LOVE HD DVD over there! That's exactly why "The Digital Bits chooses Blu-ray Disc - Click here to read why in The Soapbox" is posted without any updates stating that Paramount and Dreamworks are no longer neutral. Yeah, VERY trusted source. :rolleyes:

WB was quoted. If that isn't good enough for you then I don't know what else to tell you. And as a matter of fact TDB is about as biased towards BD as you can get, IMO but when a studio is quoted - I tend to believe it. Bill didn't say it - a WB employee said it.

Yes the same people that said Universal would go neutral at CES 07.

Yeah, that was pretty funny. Can't wait to the 'Universal Neutral at CES '09!' posts shortly after CES.

So during which CES is Universal going neutral? Wouldn't it be funny if they went neutral not during a CES?

-Brian

The story first came from Robert:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?t=262807
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=914750

After that, it was linked to by Bill Hunt.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#nix

Then Bill posted an update indicating he received an email from Warner's PR agency. Weighing this trail, I'll stick to what Robert posted until something more substantial comes along.

Update!

Okay... Warner's PR agency just got back to us this afternoon. It's not exactly the formal statement from the studio that we'd been told to expect, but here's what they had to say:

"We understand you were looking for clarification following recent reports that WHV would be discontinuing the HD DVD combo discs. We would like to clarify that this is not the case and that WHV will continue to release combo HD DVD/DVD discs for the foreseeable future."

So there you go. Yeah... I know. That wasn't particularly informative, and it doesn't help those of you who are having trouble with Warner's Combo format discs, but there it is.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

In red is the statement from WB. Good enough?

WB was quoted. If that isn't good enough for you then I don't know what else to tell you. And as a matter of fact TDB is about as biased towards BD as you can get, IMO but when a studio is quoted - I tend to believe it. Bill didn't say it - a WB employee said it.

...Why would WB announce they are killing Combos 4 months early? Deny, Deny, Deny until a week before hand. By saying they are dumping Combos is like saying "They are all faulty". I will believe Robert who actually HAS pretty good contacts over Bill who will go out of his way to diss HD DVD.

I didn't read all 5 pages so somebody probably already covered theses points, but here they are again anyway....


Pitiful numbers. And truthfully a negligible difference. I deeply disappointed by both HD and Blu, these numbers are better than VHS???!
We should demand the numbers sold and get rid of the percentage BS. With numbers this small anything can influence them and one Amazon sale could cause domination.
referring to the OP's data in the graphics, some of those number I think are off. Are there some titles missing?

Black Snake Moan selling 9k,
Failure to launch, Hustle and Flow, MI, MI2, selling at around 1k or slightly less. I wouldn't release any more catalog titles with numbers like these. If these are a true indication of what Next gen sales numbers are like we all are lucky anybody bothers with it.

Down side is next gen is not catching on, even directors are so not sure about it. Warner said they have to educate directors about what the formats are and whats is possible with HD. If the public does not choose winner, it will probably be left to Warner. Which is exactly the position I think they wanted. Next time around when new formats are being developed no body will bypass their door or ignore their suggestions. My hope would be taht Warner forced the implementation of a universal (meaning all studios including Sony) publishing mandate. But that isn't too likely to happen.


Sad but video rental stores are the biggest next gen buyers at the moment.

...Why would WB announce they are killing Combos 4 months early? Deny, Deny, Deny until a week before hand. By saying they are dumping Combos is like saying "They are all faulty". I will believe Robert who actually HAS pretty good contacts over Bill who will go out of his way to diss HD DVD.

What part of this do you not understand?

"We understand you were looking for clarification following recent reports that WHV would be discontinuing the HD DVD combo discs. We would like to clarify that this is not the case and that WHV will continue to release combo HD DVD/DVD discs for the foreseeable future."

What part of this do you not understand?

The point that no studio would announce the death of Combo 4 months early. Robert got wind of it, and posted it early. I believe Robert. He has nothing to gain by posting FUD.

The point that no studio would announce the death of Combo 4 months early. Robert got wind of it, and posted it early. I believe Robert. He has nothing to gain by posting FUD.

He has also posted that WB is going to start using the TL Twin beginning Spring 2008.

We have a clarification from WHV themselves on their continued use. As a matter of fact - both may be right. Robert and WHV

What? Like this is a secret or something? What difference would it make if they stopped using combo's or continued? Paramount and Universal both are using the Combo - no word on them right?

It only affects HD DVD owners anyway.

It was a quick decision on Paramount's part to abandon Blu-ray. If manufacturing Blu-ray discs was too costly, how costly was it when they recalled all copies of Blades of Glory in BD.

Who says internally Paramount did not decide this weeks before they went public? Therefore that would eliminate the possibility of the discs being manufacturered. And if they were pressed, what are we talking 25,000 discs? It's not like 5M discs were pressed for the BD release of Blades of Glory.

Who says internally Paramount did not decide this weeks before they went public? Therefore that would eliminate the possibility of the discs being manufacturered. And if they were pressed, what are we talking 25,000 discs? It's not like 5M discs were pressed for the BD release of Blades of Glory.

At this point we don't know if ANY were pressed. A member here somehow 'bought' the only 3 copies known the exist.

In red is the statement from WB. Good enough?
No it isn't. We don't know what question he asked, and he got a response from a PR rep. "The foreseeable future" could easily mean until early 2008 which is exactly when Robert said they would switch. I've read all this repeatedly, I don't need to see it again in red, and I'll go with Robert's first post.

He has also posted that WB is going to start using the TL Twin beginning Spring 2008.

We have a clarification from WHV themselves on their continued use. As a matter of fact - both may be right. Robert and WHV

What? Like this is a secret or something? What difference would it make if they stopped using combo's or continued? Paramount and Universal both are using the Combo - no word on them right?

It only affects HD DVD owners anyway.

Like I said, if Warner stated they were discontinuing Combos in January, they would have to give a reason why. If they came out and said 'Some have been faulty', it could freak out potential HD DVD owners to either a. avoid the format b. avoid all combos.

Its like if the BDA came out today and said 'After Oct 31st all standalone players may not play certain features/movies'. Wouldn't that scare off potential buyers from the format altogether? WE all know that, but we are not the J6P ones that are deciding between two formats.

Back on topic . . .

The sale of HD movies on both formats stink.

Anyone that says differently is kidding themselves.

Like I said, if Warner stated they were discontinuing Combos in January, they would have to give a reason why. If they came out and said 'Some have been faulty', it could freak out potential HD DVD owners to either a. avoid the format b. avoid all combos.

Its like if the BDA came out today and said 'After Oct 31st all standalone players may not play certain features/movies'. Wouldn't that scare off potential buyers from the format altogether?

They could easily say we are moving from the Combo to the TL Twin which would be an accurate read. They would not say ANYTHING about the Combo being faulty.

Just like Andy Parsons said about the BD profiles issue; "Little or no consumer impact at all."

Sales figures posts belong in the sales figures threads.