http://stor-age.zdnet.com.cn/stor-age/2007/0930/530608.shtml

GOOGLE translate:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fstor-age.zdnet.com.cn%2Fstor-age%2F2007%2F0930%2F530608.shtml&langpair=zh%7Cen&hl=zh-CN&ie=UTF8

I thought this interesting RE: HD DVD's new 51 gb disc announcement:

10, HD DVD camp earlier released a 51GB HD DVD-ROM standard TL, which is more than 50GB BD-, I do not know how BDA?

Chris Buma：我要强调一点，这个标准并不是HD DVD-ROM标准，而是一个全新的光盘标准，现有的HD DVD影碟机并不能读取它。 Chris Buma: I want to emphasize that this is not the standard HD DVD-ROM standards, but a new CD-ROM standards, the existing HD DVD player can not read it. 所以我要强调的是，单面三层是新技术，而不是HD DVD标准。

If they are including the PS3 then they must have low expectations for the PS3 through the end of 2008.

More FUD Jeff?

Try going to the source:

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml

There are a number of PDF's that deal with this. I am sure you will easily be able to locate them. Try the compatability one first.

I thought this interesting RE: HD DVD's new 51 gb disc announcement:

10, HD DVD camp earlier released a 51GB HD DVD-ROM standard TL, which is more than 50GB BD-, I do not know how BDA?

Chris Buma：我要强调一点，这个标准并不是HD DVD-ROM标准，而是一个全新的光盘标准，现有的HD DVD影碟机并不能读取它。 Chris Buma: I want to emphasize that this is not the standard HD DVD-ROM standards, but a new CD-ROM standards, the existing HD DVD player can not read it. 所以我要强调的是，单面三层是新技术，而不是HD DVD标准。

The chinese " 光盘" means Optical Disc, not is CD-ROM, this is a bug about the google translate

More FUD Jeff?

Try going to the source:

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml

There are a number of PDF's that deal with this. I am sure you will easily be able to locate them. Try the compatability one first.It's not Jeff's FUD (this time), it's the BDA's FUD. They lie a lot.

If they count all PS3s they may get there.

So let's see : 10 million units, of which more than 9 will be PS3s, with an attach rate of 10% or less... Nope, still not profitable for the studios. Ok, let's try again in 2009...

So let's see : 10 million units, of which more than 9 will be PS3s, with an attach rate of 10% or less... Nope, still not profitable for the studios. Ok, let's try again in 2009...


Until you have a TL 51 reading off your player it doesn't work on it... End of story, pdf's and people saying .. well it should work, means very little when it comes time to play it.

Until you have a TL 51 reading off your player it doesn't work on it... End of story, pdf's and people saying .. well it should work, means very little when it comes time to play it.

Yea right. Like the profile 1.1 and 2.0 equipped movies on the BD players. Until they work on the 1.0 players . . . you got nothing.

It's not Jeff's FUD (this time), it's the BDA's FUD. They lie a lot.Chris Buma is an employee of Philips Electronics that is a member of DVD Forum so it's very likely he knows the spec of HD DVD TL51.

Chris Buma is an employee of Philips Electronics that is a member of DVD Forum so it's very likely he knows the spec of HD DVD TL51.

Here you go:

http://www.dvdforum.org/mi-general.htm

Chris Buma is an employee of Philips Electronics that is a member of DVD Forum so it's very likely he knows the spec of HD DVD TL51.

Umm pretty much ALL of the BDA are members of the DVD Forum...Strange no? Pretty sure you can find a PDF somewhere on the web that tells you exactly the spec of TL51. But I am guessing that Toshiiba isn't sharing with the BDA whether their drives can support it.

Whoa, Nelly: "The matsushita 预 计 next year BD shadow 碟 desk 销 售 quantitative military officer 达 arriving at 2,000,000 unit"

They are predicting 2 million Panasonic standalone sales in 2008?Yes.

Is this the same meeting in China where they made a presentation full of lies and ommissions?? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=915978Yes.

Until you have a TL 51 reading off your player it doesn't work on it... End of story, pdf's and people saying .. well it should work, means very little when it comes time to play it.

Like:

BD50s?
BD+ ?
Profile 1.1 titles ?
Profile 2.0 titles ?

Hmm. Funny how you don't mention those as well. :rolleyes:

Umm pretty much ALL of the BDA are members of the DVD Forum...Strange no? Pretty sure you can find a PDF somewhere on the web that tells you exactly the spec of TL51. But I am guessing that Toshiiba isn't sharing with the BDA whether their drives can support it.

You do realize that on 9/12/07 the TL51 received First Approval?

Anyone connected with the DVD Forum has access to this information - up to the point of NDA's which are specifically mentioned within the test reports. They had to go to a specified 3rd party (listed in the PDF's) and have the disc extensively tested. The blank forms are all there at DVD Forums website for anyone to see.

And I have now linked at least 5X the DVD Forum's Compatability PDF and what is expected. It CLEARLY says that to get Final Production Approval - the disc in question has to work with legacy players.

It would REALLY help if all the speculators would go to the site and start reading ALL the available PDF's. Then all this BS and FUD will finally end once and for all.:mad:

For the Nth time:

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml

Like:

BD50s?
BD+ ?
Profile 1.1 titles ?
Profile 2.0 titles ?

Hmm. Funny how you don't mention those as well. :rolleyes:

Last time I put one in my player, it worked.

When I buy one of the other three, I'll let you know.:rolleyes:

With that many players out there they really have to let the PS3 users know what a good Blu Ray player it is so they start buying more thus kicking sales into high gear.

I think it's time to start packing movies instead of games back into the PS3 boxes and I uderstand there is rumor that is planned for Spiderman 3.

-Brian

Yea right. Like the profile 1.1 and 2.0 equipped movies on the BD players. Until they work on the 1.0 players . . . you got nothing.

I agree but a profile is different than a readable disc issue... If you want to go there then I state that HD DVD players will NOT be able to decode DTS-MA Ever because no has shown that they can.

Like:

BD50s?
BD+ ?
Profile 1.1 titles ?
Profile 2.0 titles ?

Hmm. Funny how you don't mention those as well. :rolleyes:

BD50's were designed from the start of Blu Ray there is no comparison
BD+ will work on profile 1.1 and above players for sure!
The profiles are hardware not software so there is technically no profile1.1 disc so when a 1.1 profile player hits that doesn't do as advertised then you have something to whine about........

And lastly let us know when that dvd forum gives final approval because until then it is vaporware that DOESN'T work on legacy players!

If you want to go there then I state that HD DVD players will NOT be able to decode DTS-MA Ever because no has shown that they can.

I don't see this as a problem, as long as we can get the raw bitstream out through HDMI. This has been pre-announced as being in the next firmware upgrade for the XA2.

I agree but a profile is different than a readable disc issue... If you want to go there then I state that HD DVD players will NOT be able to decode DTS-MA Ever because no has shown that they can.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/5391-onkyo.jpg

I agree but a profile is different than a readable disc issue... If you want to go there then I state that HD DVD players will NOT be able to decode DTS-MA Ever because no has shown that they can.


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/5391-onkyo.jpg


Lee,

The poster said decoding DTS MA....Nothing in the ad you posted (above) says anything about decoding. All the player can do (according to your ad) is pass DTS MA (and TRUE HD) via bitstream. Decoding via LPCM (or analog) is not stated or clear in that ad. No other player does it yet, but I see no evidence this one does DTS MA decoding (but it would be great if it did).

Lee,

The poster said decoding DTS MA....Nothing in the ad you posted (above) says anything about decoding. All the player can do (according to your ad) is pass DTS MA (and TRUE HD) via bitstream. Decoding via LPCM (or analog) is not stated or clear in that ad. No other player does it yet, but I see no evidence this one does DTS MA decoding (but it would be great if it did).

It is to my knowledge that NO HD player can decode DTS-MA within the player and output it via the analog outputs. The ONLY way to get DTS-MA is to use a companion reveiver.

So if I misunderstood the poster - my bad.

Well - back to the thread title. As of 9/15/07 - there have been 4.64 million PS3's sold SI.

http://www.vgchartz.com/

So this 10 million number. Is it 12/31/08 or 3/31/08?

Why just track the PS3 as a BD player? because it represents over 90% of all BD players.

Chris Buma is an employee of Philips Electronics that is a member of DVD Forum so it's very likely he knows the spec of HD DVD TL51.
Actually, it is not very likely. In every DVD forum board meeting which I have attended, Philips consistently refused to look at any HD DVD specifications. They always wanted to be on record in stating so.

DTS-HD-MA decoding is not a mandatory requirement in either formats specs so why are we arguing about it?

BD+ compatibility mandatory for BD players, and since it hasn't been shown, just like TL51GB discs, it's a matter of wait and see for both parties.

Anyhow, 10 milliion BD-Rom units inc PS3 is probably an accurate target.

I did get an PM from one of the insiders and they said new chips will allow DTS MA decoding (to LPCM).. So, it is coming...

Certainly some interesting reads on that site!!!

As of 9/15/07 - there have been 4.64 million PS3's sold SI.

It's also worth a reminder that only a fraction (25%? 30%?) of PS3s are actually hooked up to HDTVs. By contrast, it's a reasonable guess 100% of HD DVD players are hooked up to HDTVs; same goes for Blu-ray stand alones and a high percentage (90%?) of XBox HD DVD drive add-ons.

I did get an PM from one of the insiders and they said new chips will allow DTS MA decoding (to LPCM).. So, it is coming...
Thanks for the info, Jeff.

You do realize that on 9/12/07 the TL51 received First Approval?

Anyone connected with the DVD Forum has access to this information - up to the point of NDA's which are specifically mentioned within the test reports. They had to go to a specified 3rd party (listed in the PDF's) and have the disc extensively tested. The blank forms are all there at DVD Forums website for anyone to see.

And I have now linked at least 5X the DVD Forum's Compatability PDF and what is expected. It CLEARLY says that to get Final Production Approval - the disc in question has to work with legacy players.

It would REALLY help if all the speculators would go to the site and start reading ALL the available PDF's. Then all this BS and FUD will finally end once and for all.:mad:

For the Nth time:

http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml


You're sending people to the dvdforum site because... it will end BS and FUD, ha ha, thanks for that.

As I recall, the original news from the forum was that the physical spec for TL51 had been approved. When people asked if the spec was compatible with existing players, the news changed to, TL51 is a preliminary spec, with a future final spec to come... And now, the final spec must include legacy player compatibility. In other words, the first spec was NOT compatible with legacy players, or by definition it would be the final spec. This TL51/HD DVD forum thing, is actually the very definition of FUD and BS.

There will either, never will be a TL51 final spec, or, TL51 will be part of the HD DVD finalized spec V2.0. My bet is on the former.

You're sending people to the dvdforum site because... it will end BS and FUD, ha ha, thanks for that.

As I recall, the original news from the forum was that the physical spec for TL51 had been approved. When people asked if the spec was compatible with existing players, the news changed to, TL51 is a preliminary spec, with a future final spec to come... And now, the final spec must include legacy player compatibility. In other words, the first spec was NOT compatible with legacy players, or by definition it would be the final spec. This TL51/HD DVD forum thing, is actually the very definition of FUD and BS.

There will either, never will be a TL51 final spec, or, TL51 will be part of the HD DVD finalized spec V2.0. My bet is on the former.

I see . . more FUD. Did you go to the DVD Forum's site and look at ALL the PDF's involved in Verification and Compatability? I am not sure you did. Because if you did you would understand that there are two approvals necessary before ANY disc can be used to sell to the public:

1. First Approval - TL51 has received this

2. Final Production Approval - TL 51 has not received this yet.

Making 500 or 1000 discs slowly to make sure they are compatible with legacy players and that all layers can be read is not the same as making them on a machine that pops them out at a rate of 120 per minute and do it for a few hours checking discs for QC.

So read some PDF's and learn something. It will be educational for you - I guarantee it.

As of 9/15/07 - there have been 4.64 million PS3's sold SI.

... and of those, 2.02 million PS3s were sold in North America. How many of those are hooked up to an HDTV and therefore have anything to play a Blu-ray movie on? I seem to recall somewhere that 20-25% of PS3s are attached to an HDTV ... which drags the number of Blu-ray PS3 players down to around 500,000. When you add in the actual Blu-ray stand-alones; and then factor in the actual HD DVD stand-alones and, perhaps, the XboX HD DVD add ons ... I'm confident you'll see almost immediately why the current 1.5ish:1 BD:HD software sales is occurring.

Based on the same math, if HD DVD significantly outsells Blu-ray stand-alones this Xmas season, the software sales balance will tilt toward HD DVD sometime early to mid 2008. Just my speculation, of course; I am hoping we'll see some reliable stand-alone player sales figures in the next several days as Q3 financial reports are released.

... and of those, 2.02 million PS3s were sold in North America. How many of those are hooked up to an HDTV and therefore have anything to play a Blu-ray movie on? I seem to recall somewhere that 20-25% of PS3s are attached to an HDTV ... which drags the number of Blu-ray PS3 players down to around 500,000. When you add in the actual Blu-ray stand-alones; and then factor in the actual HD DVD stand-alones and, perhaps, the XboX HD DVD add ons ... I'm confident you'll see almost immediately why the current 1.5ish:1 BD:HD software sales is occurring.

Based on the same math, if HD DVD significantly outsells Blu-ray stand-alones this Xmas season, the software sales balance will tilt toward HD DVD sometime early to mid 2008. Just my speculation, of course; I am hoping we'll see some reliable stand-alone player sales figures in the next several days as Q3 financial reports are released.

vg charts is not correct.... you need the npd sales and worldwide Sony stated they sold between 5 and 6 million but the actual numbers are like 5.2 million as everyone likes to spin numbers!

I thought sony repoprted they'd shipped between 5 and 6 million not sold to end users.

vg charts is not correct.... you need the npd sales and worldwide Sony stated they sold between 5 and 6 million but the actual numbers are like 5.2 million as everyone likes to spin numbers!

You do understand VG Chartz ONLY counts those consoles that are bought by a consumer and the transaction goes through a POS system. Any other counts are nothing more than shipping numbers and if you start counting units sitting in warehouses - you are just desperate to get the number up.

I thought sony repoprted they'd shipped between 5 and 6 million not sold to end users.

And if they said they shipped 20 million but only 4.64 million have actually found a home . .

We use the Nielsen's because we know it represents discs sold to consumers. NO FUD about shipped = sold.

VG Chartz is the "Nielsen" of Game console sales tracking.

you need the npd sales and worldwide Sony stated they sold between 5 and 6 million

No, I don't. The VG Charts reflect POS in North America -- around 2 million PS3s. And, again, most of those NOT hooked up to an HDTV and therefore not a Blu-ray movie household. So somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500,000 reflects the true PS3 current impact on Blu-ray disc sales.

No, I don't. The VG Charts reflect POS in North America -- around 2 million PS3s. And, again, most of those NOT hooked up to an HDTV and therefore not a Blu-ray movie household. So somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500,000 reflects the true PS3 current impact on Blu-ray disc sales.

OK, say we take your numbers. How many of the 1.5M will buy an HDTV between now and Christmas. What about during the early January sales. Or in February before the Superbowl. Or when they get that nice tax refund.

They are all untapped potential for Blu-Ray.

OK, say we take your numbers. How many of the 1.5M will buy an HDTV between now and Christmas. What about during the early January sales. Or in February before the Superbowl. Or when they get that nice tax refund.

They are all untapped potential for Blu-Ray.

A lot less than you are planning on - that's for sure. The demographics for the PS3 are 18 to 25. Their disposable cash is not nearly as high as the 30 to 55 demo - the ones buying most of the HDTV's.

A lot less than you are planning on - that's for sure. The demographics for the PS3 are 18 to 25. Their disposable cash is not nearly as high as the 30 to 55 demo - the ones buying most of the HDTV's.

On that I beg to differ. When I was 18-25 I and my friends spent a lot of money on TV's, stereos, DVD players, beer, cars, women. Sorry got carried away. :DWhile they may not buy a 1080p Projector with 102" screen and 10k worth of speakers, they definitely are buying HDTV's. Just ask some of the gamers here.

On that I beg to differ. When I was 18-25 I and my friends spent a lot of money on TV's, stereos, DVD players, beer, cars, women. Sorry got carried away. :DWhile they may not buy a 1080p Projector with 102" screen and 10k worth of speakers, they definitely are buying HDTV's. Just ask some of the gamers here.

They forecasted 16 million HDTV's to be sold in 2007 by 12/31. They have sold 7 million up to 6/30. They (CEA) said they were right on target.

From 7/1 to 12/31 they will sell 9 million HDTV's. That's about 1 million per month and 3 million in December.

So we have had 3 million HDTV"s go in since 7/1. So how come the sales ratio for BD versus HD DVD still remains close to 2 to 1. Shouldn't it have skyrocketed?

Desires and opinions don't stand up to facts all that well.;)

They forecasted 16 million HDTV's to be sold in 2007 by 12/31. They have sold 7 million up to 6/30. They (CEA) said they were right on target.

From 7/1 to 12/31 they will sell 9 million HDTV's. That's about 1 million per month and 3 million in December.

So we have had 3 million HDTV"s go in since 7/1. So how come the sales ratio for BD versus HD DVD still remains close to 2 to 1. Shouldn't it have skyrocketed?

Desires and opinions don't stand up to facts all that well.;)

I don't know, maybe if all 3M were PS3 owners.:)

And if they said they shipped 20 million but only 4.64 million have actually found a home . .

We use the Nielsen's because we know it represents discs sold to consumers. NO FUD about shipped = sold.

VG Chartz is the "Nielsen" of Game console sales tracking.

Thats garbage vg chartz is known to be off on numbers everyone knows this, NPD is the SALES data and sony has shipped way over 6 million but has sold just over 5 that is worldwide!

Here is a good read if anyone is interested. Its about HDMI 1.3

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853





Once again, marketing material from the hardware manufacturers is misleading. Onkyo outright claims that their upcoming DV-HD805 HD DVD player offers "streaming of the new lossless surround sound formats, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, as well as two 'lossy' formats, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS®-HD High Resolution Audio." Sure, the player will be able to transmit the bitstreams of those formats, but only if the disc is authored in Basic mode, which no HD DVDs are, a fact they conveniently neglect to mention.

So, after all that, what does HDMI 1.3 truly gain the HD DVD or Blu-ray consumer that couldn't be gotten from any of the previous existing versions of HDMI? Frankly, not a lot. 1.3 offers the ability to transmit extended color ranges that don't even exist in the source, and makes available the delivery of raw audio bitstreams that are better off decoded inside the player first anyway, after which they can be (and currently are with great success) transmitted as uncompressed PCM by any version of HDMI. Honestly, the only real innovation that HDMI 1.3 allows for is the enhanced lip sync correction feature, and there's no indication of when or how that might be implemented.

Aren't people already streaming the HBR audio on their new 3rd gen's on normal, advanced mode discs? I think the "basic mode only" is a falsehood/misunderstanding. Certainly, when streaming HBR you don't hear your button presses and secondary audio, but that doesn't mean you can't get your HBR if you want it that way.

link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=915405

Hey,

Anyone hear about a TL51 disc planned or shipping? For a finalized format from the start this still seems like it's iffy to me.

-Brian

p.s. My neighbor has a ps3 hooked up to a HDTV with the composite cable and he buys blu rays, I tried to consult with him a little but he's sure he has it all right. He's in forth grade and a nice guy but can't convince him to try the extra set of component cables I have left over from when I went HDMI.

Hey,

Anyone hear about a TL51 disc planned or shipping? For a finalized format from the start this still seems like it's iffy to me.

-Brian

p.s. My neighbor has a ps3 hooked up to a HDTV with the composite cable and he buys blu rays, I tried to consult with him a little but he's sure he has it all right. He's in forth grade and a nice guy but can't convince him to try the extra set of component cables I have left over from when I went HDMI.

You appear to be suggesting that BD's future lies with people who are prepared to spend several dollars extra to buy a BD instead of an SD DVD, based on the difference in PQ they get over composite (eg. ZERO).

You may have a point. The music charts appear to be dominated by buyers who have lost all sense of hearing.

Steve W

Not suggesting,.. just thought I would give a funny example about my neighbor.

It's true by the way,.. kind of frustrates me because I know he has a HDTV and I have spare PS3 component cables and all that but he's confident he knows what is what.

-Brian

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/5391-onkyo.jpg

Doesn't this player still read 1080i off the disc and convert it back to 1080p ?

Doesn't this player still read 1080i off the disc and convert it back to 1080p ?

Nope. But, hey its due out in October! When is the Denon coming out again? Right after the BD-P2400?

Nice to see more HD DVD players doing the 1080p24.

Maybe soon the HD DVD supporters can stop with the no difference between 1080i and 1080p stuff.

-Brian

Nice to see more HD DVD players doing the 1080p24.

Maybe soon the HD DVD supporters can stop with the no difference between 1080i and 1080p stuff.

-Brian

Uh no. Actually 1080p is teh hYpzorz. But thanks for playing.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/5391-onkyo.jpg

Are these cheap $99 players everyone talking about? Or HD-DVD just almost manages rich Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Philips BD hardware quality for about more then twice at price?

I don't see this as a problem, as long as we can get the raw bitstream out through HDMI. This has been pre-announced as being in the next firmware upgrade for the XA2.

..but going back to everyone's train of thought in this thread, it doesn't exist until it's on the street and confirmed working.

You appear to be suggesting that BD's future lies with people who are prepared to spend several dollars extra to buy a BD instead of an SD DVD, based on the difference in PQ they get over composite (eg. ZERO).

You may have a point. The music charts appear to be dominated by buyers who have lost all sense of hearing.

Steve W

Definitely, Country/Rap and Teen Pop is apparently the big hits - and in the quality department, people prefer low bitrate digital formats over cd or higher qualityf formats.

Don't expect DVD to die any time soon.. Most likely, downloads will have higher numbers than HDM formats.

OK, say we take your numbers. How many of the 1.5M will buy an HDTV between now and Christmas. What about during the early January sales. Or in February before the Superbowl. Or when they get that nice tax refund.

They are all untapped potential for Blu-Ray.

How many current PS3 owners just bought a 360 so they can playe great games like Halo 3? How many will be buying a Wii soon, because of the cool games that are coming out on it? How many PS3s will be disconnected because they are not used very much any more?

If you look at PS3 software sales, I would say a whole bunch.

And if they said they shipped 20 million but only 4.64 million have actually found a home . .

We use the Nielsen's because we know it represents discs sold to consumers. NO FUD about shipped = sold.

VG Chartz is the "Nielsen" of Game console sales tracking.
VGChartz is suspect. I put more faith in the NPD (unfortunately, they only compile sales totals once a month).

Sure, the player will be able to transmit the bitstreams of those formats, but only if the disc is authored in Basic mode, which no HD DVDs are, a fact they conveniently neglect to mention.
that's a myth that was based on technical speculation. the Toshiba HD-A35 is already released and owners have confirmed they can bitstream TrueHD from advanced-authored HD DVDs.

If they count all PS3s they may get there.

PS3 are bluray players. Unfortunately, for HD-DVD fanboys they don't get that fact.

How many current PS3 owners just bought a 360 so they can playe great games like Halo 3? How many will be buying a Wii soon, because of the cool games that are coming out on it? How many PS3s will be disconnected because they are not used very much any more?

If you look at PS3 software sales, I would say a whole bunch.

I'm a PS3 owner and I have no interest in a 360. I may pick up a Wii at some point, but I don't see what that has to do my PS3.:rolleyes: As to your question, Effectively none, how many 360's will be bricked by Halo 3?:p

I'm a PS3 owner and I have no interest in a 360. I may pick up a Wii at some point, but I don't see what that has to do my PS3.:rolleyes: As to your question, Effectively none, how many 360's will be bricked by Halo 3?:p

You are in the minority.

This 10 million number is very telling. By the end of 2008 ther will easily more than 20 million 360s, and maybe 30 million Wiis. Sony is admitting that there will be LESS than 10 million PS3s. This means developers will have 3x the sales coding for either of the other platforms, and maybe 6x if they code for both. No wonder why all the PS3 games are delayed or cancelled.

Over time it looks like more PS3s will be shelved in favor of 360s and Wiis.

You are in the minority.

This 10 million number is very telling. By the end of 2008 ther will easily more than 20 million 360s, and maybe 30 million Wiis. Sony is admitting that there will be LESS than 10 million PS3s. This means developers will have 3x the sales coding for either of the other platforms, and maybe 6x if they code for both. No wonder why all the PS3 games are delayed or cancelled.

Over time it looks like more PS3s will be shelved in favor of 360s and Wiis.

Ok, I'm an HD DVD player advocate, due to price points, and the fact that Sony is a company I refuse to do business with anymore. But saying that Microsoft is going to sell 10 million units in the next couple of months is just crazy. Their prediction for the end of the year is something like 12 million units sold. Not 20. Sony will have a lot less than 10 million units sold. Possibly 7, and less than half that here in the states.

If you're going to make an Argument against the PS3 and Blu-Ray there are plenty of them based in facts, and not fantasy. Please try to stick to the facts.

Fact: Sony claimed the PS3 would offer a 4D experience. (Obvious lie here).

Fact: Sony has claimed that the power of the cell processor will put all other consoles to shame. This has yet to materialize. In fact the only power we've seen from the Cell is the power to deter developers from making games for it because it's difficult to program for.

Fact: The most anticipated game for the PS3 (KillZone 2) was a complete flop the first time around. As the first one was, this one is being labeled a Halo killer. (highly doubt that).

Fact: Blu-Ray players have a price point of nearly 100% (or double) over lower priced HD-DVD players.

Fact: HD-DVD's Spec is finalized.

Fact: China is now backing and producing HD-DVD players for the masses, and the first of those players will be hitting the market here this Christmas in the U.S.A.

Fact: HD-DVD offers advanced features that Blu-Ray players do not.

Fact: HD-DVD is a LOT closer to providing what the general consumer wants, which are: Better PQ/AQ. Features/Extras and an Affordable Price point.

Fact: The Onkyo HD-DVD Player will retail for something like $550.00-$650.00 here in the U.S. someone posted a link to the pricing info in the HD-DVD forum, but I don't have time to dig it up. The Onkyo's HD-DVD player is going to be the new top-of-the-line HD-DVD player, based of the Xa2's design, but with better sound capabilities (and probably a sleeker design). So it's NOT double in price compared to the Blu-Ray players, but is instead about the same cost.

Prediction: We will see HD-DVD players selling for $149.99 at some point this holiday season, even if it's just Black Friday.


Screw the specs. Screw HDMI, Screw Lossless audio.

The average consumer will make their decision based on price and features. And HD DVD will provide that long before Blu-Ray can. In the race to win Blu-Ray is a year or more away from even coming close to HD-DVD. And A year is a lifetime in the Electronics business. And no matter how much you may hate the average consumer. It is the average consumer that will decide what format lives on.

You are in the minority.

This 10 million number is very telling. By the end of 2008 ther will easily more than 20 million 360s, and maybe 30 million Wiis. Sony is admitting that there will be LESS than 10 million PS3s. This means developers will have 3x the sales coding for either of the other platforms, and maybe 6x if they code for both. No wonder why all the PS3 games are delayed or cancelled.

Over time it looks like more PS3s will be shelved in favor of 360s and Wiis.


Wow, more PS3's will be shelved? Have any? Do you have any links, or is this your opinion? Because you know what they say about opinions.:D But hey, by all accounts it's a great game(Halo3), if you luck up and get one thats not scratched and it doesn't kill your system.

Ok, I'm an HD DVD player advocate, due to price points, and the fact that Sony is a company I refuse to do business with anymore. But saying that Microsoft is going to sell 10 million units in the next couple of months is just crazy. Their prediction for the end of the year is something like 12 million units sold. Not 20. Sony will have a lot less than 10 million units sold. Possibly 7, and less than half that here in the states.

If you're going to make an Argument against the PS3 and Blu-Ray there are plenty of them based in facts, and not fantasy. Please try to stick to the facts.

Fact: Sony claimed the PS3 would offer a 4D experience. (Obvious lie here). Haven't read up on this, Ill get back to you

Fact: Sony has claimed that the power of the cell processor will put all other consoles to shame. This has yet to materialize. In fact the only power we've seen from the Cell is the power to deter developers from making games for it because it's difficult to program for. FUD

Fact: The most anticipated game for the PS3 (KillZone 2) was a complete flop the first time around. As the first one was, this one is being labeled a Halo killer. (highly doubt that).Opinion

Fact: Blu-Ray players have a price point of nearly 100% (or double) over lower priced HD-DVD players. More FUD, Equivalent Players re less than $75 apart

Fact: HD-DVD's Spec is finalized. Is this the new talking point? TL 51

Fact: China is now backing and producing HD-DVD players for the masses, and the first of those players will be hitting the market here this Christmas in the U.S.A. I've heard this also

Fact: HD-DVD offers advanced features that Blu-Ray players do not. Yet

Fact: HD-DVD is a LOT closer to providing what the general consumer wants, which are: Better PQ/AQ. Features/Extras and an Affordable Price point. Cheap is not always = to affordable

Fact: The Onkyo HD-DVD Player will retail for something like $550.00-$650.00 here in the U.S. someone posted a link to the pricing info in the HD-DVD forum, but I don't have time to dig it up. The Onkyo's HD-DVD player is going to be the new top-of-the-line HD-DVD player, based of the Xa2's design, but with better sound capabilities (and probably a sleeker design). So it's NOT double in price compared to the Blu-Ray players, but is instead about the same cost. :cool:

Prediction: We will see HD-DVD players selling for $149.99 at some point this holiday season, even if it's just Black Friday. Two per store?
:rolleyes:

Screw the specs. Screw HDMI, Screw Lossless audio. :rolleyes:

The average consumer will make their decision based on price and features. And HD DVD will provide that long before Blu-Ray can. In the race to win Blu-Ray is a year or more away from even coming close to HD-DVD. And A year is a lifetime in the Electronics business. And no matter how much you may hate the average consumer. It is the average consumer that will decide what format lives on.The average consumer will not jump in until theres one format

*

Ok, I'm an HD DVD player advocate, due to price points, and the fact that Sony is a company I refuse to do business with anymore. But saying that Microsoft is going to sell 10 million units in the next couple of months is just crazy. Their prediction for the end of the year is something like 12 million units sold. Not 20. Sony will have a lot less than 10 million units sold. Possibly 7, and less than half that here in the states.

If you're going to make an Argument against the PS3 and Blu-Ray there are plenty of them based in facts, and not fantasy. Please try to stick to the facts.

Fact: Sony claimed the PS3 would offer a 4D experience. (Obvious lie here).

Fact: Sony has claimed that the power of the cell processor will put all other consoles to shame. This has yet to materialize. In fact the only power we've seen from the Cell is the power to deter developers from making games for it because it's difficult to program for.

Fact: The most anticipated game for the PS3 (KillZone 2) was a complete flop the first time around. As the first one was, this one is being labeled a Halo killer. (highly doubt that).

Fact: Blu-Ray players have a price point of nearly 100% (or double) over lower priced HD-DVD players.

Fact: HD-DVD's Spec is finalized.

Fact: China is now backing and producing HD-DVD players for the masses, and the first of those players will be hitting the market here this Christmas in the U.S.A.

Fact: HD-DVD offers advanced features that Blu-Ray players do not.

Fact: HD-DVD is a LOT closer to providing what the general consumer wants, which are: Better PQ/AQ. Features/Extras and an Affordable Price point.

Fact: The Onkyo HD-DVD Player will retail for something like $550.00-$650.00 here in the U.S. someone posted a link to the pricing info in the HD-DVD forum, but I don't have time to dig it up. The Onkyo's HD-DVD player is going to be the new top-of-the-line HD-DVD player, based of the Xa2's design, but with better sound capabilities (and probably a sleeker design). So it's NOT double in price compared to the Blu-Ray players, but is instead about the same cost.

Prediction: We will see HD-DVD players selling for $149.99 at some point this holiday season, even if it's just Black Friday.


Screw the specs. Screw HDMI, Screw Lossless audio.

The average consumer will make their decision based on price and features. And HD DVD will provide that long before Blu-Ray can. In the race to win Blu-Ray is a year or more away from even coming close to HD-DVD. And A year is a lifetime in the Electronics business. And no matter how much you may hate the average consumer. It is the average consumer that will decide what format lives on.


Good post.

And I agree... price WILL decide this in the end. History has shown REPEATEDLY in these situations that average Joe is not interested in high quality... but rather a BALANCE between quality and price, which HD DVD has.

Th PS3 on the other hand IS NOT a player... it is a game console... it also happens to be the driving force behind BD... and at some point its sales will level off (if it hasn't started already) as the demographics for multi purpose game consoles is relatively small. The PS2 is a prime example... it plays dvd's... but there are FAR more dvd players out there than PS2's.

Paramount said it best... "Those who buy game consoles own fewer movies than those who own movie only players".... and the numbers prove it. The ratio of players (including the PS3) is something like 6:1 for BD, yet the movie sales ratio is only about 1.74:1..... BIG difference.

Good post.

And I agree... price WILL decide this in the end. History has shown REPEATEDLY in these situations that average Joe is not interested in high quality... but rather a BALANCE between quality and price, which HD DVD has.

Th PS3 on the other hand IS NOT a player... it is a game console... it also happens to be the driving force behind BD... and at some point its sales will level off (if it hasn't started already) as the demographics for multi purpose game consoles is relatively small. The PS2 is a prime example... it plays dvd's... but there are FAR more dvd players out there than PS2's.

Paramount said it best... "Those who buy game consoles own fewer movies than those who own movie only players".... and the numbers prove it. The ratio of players (including the PS3) is something like 6:1 for BD, yet the movie sales ratio is only about 1.74:1..... BIG difference.

Another good post.:)

Ok, I'm an HD DVD player advocate, due to price points, and the fact that Sony is a company I refuse to do business with anymore. But saying that Microsoft is going to sell 10 million units in the next couple of months is just crazy. Their prediction for the end of the year is something like 12 million units sold. Not 20. Sony will have a lot less than 10 million units sold. Possibly 7, and less than half that here in the states.

If you're going to make an Argument against the PS3 and Blu-Ray there are plenty of them based in facts, and not fantasy. Please try to stick to the facts.

dkwhite - do you realise it's currently 2007, and we're discussing sales upto the end of 2008?

This 10 million number is very telling. By the end of 2008 ther will easily more than 20 million 360s, and maybe 30 million Wiis. Sony is admitting that there will be LESS than 10 million PS3s. This means developers will have 3x the sales coding for either of the other platforms, and maybe 6x if they code for both. No wonder why all the PS3 games are delayed or cancelled.

However the rest of your post is a good read.

This 10 million number is very telling

Well, MS counted every “replacement” as a “new sold”. There is a barely 8 millions working 360 around. Actually numbers of 360 = Numbers of XBL users (silver and gold). There is 7 million XBL users… with 35% confirmed hardware failure… 8 millions sound about right.
BTW. PS3 already sold 6.1 (not shipped but actually sold) worldwide.

Well, MS counted every “replacement” as a “new sold”. There is a barely 8 millions working 360 around. Actually numbers of 360 = Numbers of XBL users (silver and gold). There is 7 million XBL users… with 35% confirmed hardware failure… 8 millions sound about right.
BTW. PS3 already sold 6.1 (not shipped but actually sold) worldwide.

Doubt it. However if you were to post a link that could help

fergy,

fine they are all BD players. But then please explain why roughly 2 million or so BD players only manage to sell about 50-60K discs a month (in the absence of a blockbuster).

Nice to see more HD DVD players doing the 1080p24.

Maybe soon the HD DVD supporters can stop with the no difference between 1080i and 1080p stuff.

-Brian

Maybe my eyes are old or untrained, but I saw zero difference between 1080i/p when watching a movie. Regardless, there are too many external factors when referring to 1080i/p - is there an external stand-alonevideo processor, receiver, good deinterlacer in the TV?

You are in the minority.

This 10 million number is very telling. By the end of 2008 ther will easily more than 20 million 360s, and maybe 30 million Wiis. Sony is admitting that there will be LESS than 10 million PS3s. This means developers will have 3x the sales coding for either of the other platforms, and maybe 6x if they code for both. No wonder why all the PS3 games are delayed or cancelled.

Over time it looks like more PS3s will be shelved in favor of 360s and Wiis.
Maybe, but I personally don't care. I got a Blu-ray movie player and a game console in one package. I just got my first game last week and between it and playing Blu-ray movies, I'm happy as a clam.

Well, MS counted every “replacement” as a “new sold”. There is a barely 8 millions working 360 around. Actually numbers of 360 = Numbers of XBL users (silver and gold). There is 7 million XBL users… with 35% confirmed hardware failure… 8 millions sound about right.
BTW. PS3 already sold 6.1 (not shipped but actually sold) worldwide.

The term 'FUD Monkey' comes to mind when reading this post.

Well, MS counted every “replacement” as a “new sold”. There is a barely 8 millions working 360 around. Actually numbers of 360 = Numbers of XBL users (silver and gold). There is 7 million XBL users… with 35% confirmed hardware failure… 8 millions sound about right.
BTW. PS3 already sold 6.1 (not shipped but actually sold) worldwide.

Please tell me your are kidding or being sarcastic.

Hell I will even take a "I don't believe it but it sounds good. Fight the good fight, long live blu-ray".

The sad thing is that you probably do believe the garbage coming out of your mouth.

Please tell me your are kidding or being sarcastic.

Hell I will even take a "I don't believe it but it sounds good. Fight the good fight, long live blu-ray".

The sad thing is that you probably do believe the garbage coming out of your mouth.
And so do many others of his ilk. This is why Sony gets away with murder. Until Sony becomes a 4-letter word for a larger cross-section of people, this will long continue.

@huntaar @namechamps

can you update XBOX 360 without been conected to XBL as silver or gold user ? How many times MS update bios for last 2 years ?