Other than cost since I understand the $15k fee associated with devices that have a HDMI interface (which could be sidestepped with just a component out), what are the reasons that these DVD recorders that do have a 'digital' tuner, don't have any HD output for a HD display so as to use it as a 'tuner' without using it as a recorder?

Someone who worked on the design of one of these recorders posted here about this, some months ago. As I recall, most of the processing is done on a single highly-integrated chip. The ones that were available when the current generation of ATSC DVD recorders was designed, simply didn't have HD outputs. Adding a HD output would have required a more complicated and expensive design.

More recent chips apparently do have the capability to provide HD output, and they should start to appear in the next generation of ATSC recorders.

most of the processing is done on a single highly-integrated chip.If so, then it has to be available since the stand alone tuners have the outputs. Adding a HD output would have required a more complicated and expensive design.It can't be that expensive since those stand alone tuners have the capibility.

I've got a Panasonic DMR-EZ47V that appears to fit the bill.

From the manual:
This DVD recorder has a tuner which allows it to directly receive and record analog and terrestrial digital channels. High Definition (HD) programming is “down-converted” and recorded in Standard Definition (SD).

The manual doesn't appear to go into any details about digital specifications. but it does also say:
Television system:
TV system: NTSC system, 525 lines, 60 fields
Antenna reception input:
Analog TV Channel: 2 ch to 69 ch
Analog CATV Channel: 1 ch to 135 ch
Digital TV Channel: 2 ch to 69 ch
Digital CATV Channel: 1 ch to 135 ch

It has HDMI output.

High Definition (HD) programming is “down-converted”Which tells me it doesn't "fit the bill".
Ok, what TV do you have and does it have a HDMI input?

This has been much discussed in this forum. Pretty much worn out over the past 5 or 6 months. For example:

"For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron"

A cut and paste from this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10567488&postcount=947

Self proclaimed Einsteins on here think it is as easy as screwing in a light bulb. But I believe there is more than meets the eye on this issue. And it is technical in nature - no black helicopters please.

Which tells me it doesn't "fit the bill".
Ok, what TV do you have and does it have a HDMI input?

I read that to mean that it won't record in HD. I have it connected to the HDMI input of my AVR; works fine. Whether or not it's receiving a HD signal and passing that along to the HDMI output, I'm not sure.

what we need is for those recorders to have HDMI or Component INPUTS so that we can record HD programming from cable from the cable box to the DVD Recorder.

tatanka01 - the video is dowrez'd because of the chip design. And then upscaled when using the HDMI out port. PQ can still be quite good though.

Self proclaimed Einsteins on here think it is as easy as screwing in a light bulb. But I believe there is more than meets the eye on this issue. And it is technical in nature - no black helicopters please.

Quoting my own post here but I was one of the self proclaimed Einsteins who felt it was more of a marketing decision rather than a technical one. But as it turns out it was more technical in nature. Perhaps 2008 will prove different. If the manufacturers embrace the LSI Domino 5 then things should improve over the current offerings.

Eh, they'll probably go with a previous gen chip if it's cheaper to mass-produce, and keep the tuners in SD Hell...

OK, so I'm pessimistic by nature. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe Panasonic will bring on an HDD HD DVR DVD Recorder, too.

nextoo; That's for the quote, but;Self proclaimed Einsteins on here think it is as easy as screwing in a light bulb. No one thinks it's that easy, but it isn't 'rocket science' either. If I small no-name compamy can do it, Panasonic (just to mention one) can. It will just cost a little more. I can't see why it would add much more than $10 to the manufacturing cost of the device and perhaps a $50 retail jump. I surely would pay $50 more for that function instead of paying $150 to $200+ for just a tuner.I have it connected to the HDMI input of my AVR "AVR" as in audio receiver? Is this just for the audio portion, or is it for video to be passed through to your monitor?
Again, what TV do you have? what we need is for those recorders to have HDMI or Component INPUTS so that we can record HD programming from cable from the cable box to the DVD Recorder. You can't record HD component (at least not economically), it's uncompressed. It would have to be a 1394 (firewire) output. I believe the same applies to HDMI.

You can't record component (at least not economically), it's uncompressed. It would have to be a 1394 (firewire) output. I believe the same applies to HDMI.

I'm not tracking with this one. Not sure what you mean about component being "uncompressed". There are DVD recorders with component inputs.

There are DVD recorders with component inputs. Please list them.

Component is uncompressed video. It is the final product for a display. The only format purer is RGB as in a VGA output (with analog formats).

I guess you could start here. Not a complete list but a start:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=775235

I don't believe compression has anything to do with component video. That is if by compression you mean some sort of bit rate compression or video resolution compression.

A few years ago the discussion was with D-VHS recorders and them not having component inputs. The universal reply was the fact a HD component signal isn't compressed and there would be no pratical way to record it because of it's size.

Since these are SD recorders, there is no bandwidth issue since they are only recording NTSC, so I will edit my statement above to include that.

And PAL.

Component isn't restricted to uncompreseed video whether it's SD or HD. In both cases it can be an Mpeg2 video stream. Which is compressed video. And with newer compression schemes like Mpeg4 HD is compressed even more than Mpeg2. And yes over component if one chooses to use component.

Please list them.

Component is uncompressed video. It is the final product for a display. The only format purer is RGB as in a VGA output (with analog formats).



My two Philips recorders have component inputs, but they are also around 4 years old. And they also record in DD 2.0 instead of pcm stereo.

Component isn't restricted to uncompreseed video whether it's SD or HD. In both cases it can be an Mpeg2 video stream.Example of MPEG2 over component??

Component video is analog. For some reason you seem to be confusing it with digital. Thus your comparison of firewire and component having similiar properties. Your "uncompressed video" comment for example. This is a mistaken assumption.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

Component video is analog. For some reason you seem to be confusing it with digital.I know that and no I'm not. I even mentioned analog in one of the above posts. It isn't me that is confusing it. Thus your comparison of firewire and component having similiar properties.I never said they had similar properties. I wasn't making a comparision between the two, just mentioning them.

Please list them.

Component is uncompressed video. It is the final product for a display. The only format purer is RGB as in a VGA output (with analog formats).

And you also mentioned this. "Component is uncompressed video". Which it is not - by any stretch of the imagination. Or definition. Which leads one to believe there is some confusion at play here.

All right, point me to where it states that a analog component signal is 'compressed'.

Surely it isn't in any of these sources;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video
http://www.projectorcentral.com/component.htm
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=YPbPr&i=55163,00.asp

All right, point me to where it states that a analog component signal is 'compressed'.

Surely it isn't in any of these sources;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video
http://www.projectorcentral.com/component.htm
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=YPbPr&i=55163,00.asp

Well let's try this. Perhaps not compression but rather converted to a small size. Call it what you like.

RGB Analog Component Video

"The various RGB (Red, Green, Blue) analog component video standards (e.g., RGBS, RGBHV, RG&SB) use no compression and impose no real limit on color depth or resolution, but require large bandwidth to carry the signal and contain much redundant data since each channel typically includes the same black and white image. Most modern computers offer this signal via the VGA port. Many televisions, especially in Europe, utilize RGB via the SCART connector. All arcade games, excepting early vector and black and white games, use RGB monitors.

Analog RGB is slowly falling out of favor as computers obtain better clarity using Digital (DVI) video and home theater moves towards HDMI. Analog RGB has been largely ignored, despite its quality and suitability, as it cannot easily be made to support Digital Rights Management. RGB was never popular in North America for consumer electronics, as S-Video was considered sufficient."

Y'PbPr Analog Component Video

"Further types of component analogue video signals do not use R,G,B components but rather a colorless component, termed luma, combined with one or more color-carrying components, termed chroma, that give only color information. This overcomes the problem of data redundancy that plagues RGB signals, since there is only one black and white image carried, instead of three. Both the S-Video component video output (two separate signals) and the Y'PbPr component video output (three separate signals) seen on DVD players are examples of this method.

Converting video into luma and chroma allows for chroma subsampling, a method used by JPEG images and DVD players to reduce the storage requirements for images and video. The Y'PbPr scheme is usually what is meant when people talk of component video today. Many consumer DVD players, high-definition displays, video projectors and the like, use this form of color coding."

Emphasis added.

From here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

Component video is just another transport for an ANALOG signal. It can transmit more data than an SVideo cable, for comparison, but it's the same analog signal. Analog signals aren't "compressed" or "uncompressed"-- those are terms for the digital stage.

Component just splits out the individual signals into 3 parts (composite keeps them all together, Svideo breaks it into chroma and luma if I remembering correctly [and no time to double check], and component splits either chroma or luma into 2 parts for 3 separate signals)

It's more an issue of quality-- and Hollywood/MPAA/etc being concerned about getting ultra-close-to-perfect recordings-- than technical limitations. It really isn't that much different than recording an SVideo signal, you just need an analog-digital converter designed to do it.

IOW's I was correct...................
It's not a 'compressed' format as 1394 and HDMI is. Digital or analog.

You can't record HD component (at least not economically), it's uncompressed. It would have to be a 1394 (firewire) output. I believe the same applies to HDMI.

Until you get back to this quote. Which still makes no sense to me.

It leads one to believe that video cannot be recorded via component because component "isn't compressed". What exactly does this mean. The "HD" was added at a later time. Is s-video compressed? Is this why you think it is possible to record via svideo and not component video? I believe it is the recorder than does the compression regardless of the analog source (component, svideo, composite).

Just curious because this was the genesis of the discussion.

IOW's I was correct...................
It's not a 'compressed' format as 1394 and HDMI is. Digital or analog.

But there is also this:

"Component Video, found on just about every DVD and HD source is a compressed video stream. It is calculated from the original RGB (native) source as follows:

Y = + 0.299R + 0.587G + 0.114B
Pb/Cb = +(B - Y) / 1.772 + 0.5
= - 0.168736R - 0.331264G + 0.5B + 0.5
Pr/Cr = +(R - Y) / 1.402 + 0.5
= + 0.5R - 0.418688G - 0.081312B + 0.5

Here, R, G, and B are assumed to range from 0 to 1, with 0 representing the minimum intensity and 1 the maximum. YCbCr was defined in the ITU-601 standard for use with digital component video. The same color space for use in analog component video was called YPbPr, although the term YCbCr is often used for both systems. Where Y carries the luminance, the PbPr carries the color space difference encoding."

Emphasis added.

From here. Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/key-digital-ctca3-transcoder-11-2004.html

You can't record HD component (at least not economically), it's uncompressed.Because it takes up too much space, hence the reason for comprewssion in the first place. Not because it is technically not possible, but the raw data file size is just too large.
The same for digital still cameras. You can record the image in 'raw' format but most don't because of it's file size. It just isn't practical. Component Video, found on just about every DVD and HD source is a compressed video stream. That orginated from a 'compressed' video stream. The reduction in color space for the R & B components, I wouldn't call 'compressed', just limited.

That orginated from a 'compressed' video stream. The reduction in color space for the R & B components, I wouldn't call 'compressed', just limited.

Brian Weatherhead does. A rather authoritative reviewer over at Secrets:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/key-digital-ctca3-transcoder-11-2004.html

Your link takes me to your post.

Because it takes up too much space, hence the reason for comprewssion in the first place. Not because it is technically not possible, but the raw data file size is just too large.

To large for who? Not for me. Or for these:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11787303&postcount=1

Or for this. Available with a component input dongle:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

But again. What does any of this have to do with component in/outputs?

The "HD" in your post was added the next day. Here's a copy of the original. "HD" less post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11787547&postcount=13

So what were your original assumptions when you first wrote the post? Were they that you can't record from component because you thought component was "uncompressed" as you originally stated?

Again no big deal. Just curious.

Your link takes me to your post.


Sorry about that. Edited. Here's the link:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/key-digital-ctca3-transcoder-11-2004.html

DVD video is stored as a component signal, AFAIK, but that's not the same as a component analog cable. It just means the video is compressed and stored as the 3 separate parts. It doesn't mean component video is compressed or uncompressed. It just means those parts are taken from the original signal, pushed through an analog-digital converter, and then output in a format that stores the data a certain way.

When you go to play back a DVD, a component connection means the least amount of processing, as your player just decodes the component signals, pushes it back through a digital-analog converter, and then out through the 3 component cables. To output SVideo or composite, the DVD player needs to combine signals before output.

There are 2 totally different issues here...

I agree. Which I believe was my original point. That recording via a component output/input is no big deal. It has been and will be done everyday.

Recording via component inputs/outputs and whether component video is compressed or uncompressed are mutually exclusive discussions.

But the point was made that recoding via component input/outputs was not possible. That is what I responded to. It is possible. And is has nothing to do with how component compression/uncompression is defined.

The rest of the discussion really had no application to the original point.

Pressed, commercial DVDs are made with Component video.

Pressed, commercial DVDs are made with Component video.

Yes agreed. From Wiki:

"Commercial DVD movies are encoded using a combination of MPEG-2 compressed video and audio of varying formats."

Oops....I read compressed in there somewhere. :) Compressed so that we can get more than 1.3 seconds of lossless avi on a 4.7GB disc. :eek:

jmscott42 is right. Different uses of the same word. But back to the original point. Recording via component in/outputs is not an issue regardless of which version of component we use.

To large for who? Not for me. Or for these:You don't seem to understand just how much data is in a uncompressed HD signal. Your reference to HD DVDs' is to a medium that compresses (processes) the data or it wouldn't fit even on a HD DVD. I'm not going into a long explanation since I'm not the one to do it. The "HD" in your post was added the next day.I added what was missing that is the topic of this thread. So what were your original assumptions when you first wrote the post? Were they that you can't record from component because you thought component was "uncompressed" as you originally stated?I didn't "assume" and I AFAIK a HD component signal isn't recordable in that forum with any consumer equipment.

The purpose of the question, which should be clear, is why these devices can't be used as a digital 'tuner' with the full HD signal available for sets that don't have one?

"The purpose of the question, which should be clear, is why these devices can't be used as a digital 'tuner' with the full HD signal available for sets that don't have one?"

Getting back to that original question and putting aside all the "compressed" vs. "uncompressed" "component vs. s-video vs. firewire" discussion which simply clouded the issue (and which was amusingly full of technical inaccuracies, miscommunication, and other similar missteps). The simple answer is that there is NO TECHNICAL REASON why ATSC tuners in DVD recorders could not be made to serve the dual purpose of serving as a digital OTA/Cable channel content source for DVD recording as well as acting as an outboard HD digital tuner to feed a tunerless HD monitor via a digital (e.g., DVI or HDMI) or analog (e.g., component) interface. The fact is that, probably for business/cost reasons, manufacturers have chosen not to provide the "outboard" HD tuner feature because (1) DVD recording does not need nor can it use a full HD source w/o downconversion because DVD's are recorded, by specification, at 480i and (2) CE manufacturers are only begrugingly providing digital tuners in the US because of the law so they are not really incentivized to do so from a consumer demand/profitablity standpoint (3) most high def sets today have built in ATSC HD tuners so there is not really much of a market for outboard digital HD tuners now - you can count the number of different model outboard digital HD tuners on one hand (ATSC standard definition tuners on the other hand will be a different matter since they will become essential for legacy OTA analog viewers with SD analog TVs once the mandatory switchover to digital happens in 2009 - remember that a digital ATSC tuner is not synonymous with HD - an ATSC/QAM tuner can be either SD or HD). Hence - since DVD's only need SD and consumers aren't clamoring for HD tuners in their DVD recorders (lets face it they aren't clamoring for DVD recorders period) manufacturers are getting by on the cheap and only providing SD ATSC/QAM tuners and are "selling" the upconversion/HDMI aspect. The typical non-tech-savvy consumer may even think that upconversion output from a DVD recorder with a digital tuner equals an HD tuner (which most of us here on the AVS forum know is not true). HTH

which was amusingly full of technical inaccuracies, miscommunication, and other similar missteps Please feel free to post your 'corrections'.

Please feel free to post your 'corrections'.

I think nextoo and jmscott addressed them. You are hung up on "uncompressed" analog component video being some sort of impediment to HD recording which simply is not the case. While its true the digital video data files associated with converting an analog HD signal to digital bits at HD resolutions would be huge (hence temporal compression schemes are typically used to compress HD analog signals or uncompressed digital data to an mpeg2 or mpeg4 bitstream), this is NOT an impediment to recording from an "uncompressed" analog component recorder input since the limiting factor is the real time analog-to-digital compression circuit that converts the analog HD signal to a digital mpeg2 or mpeg4 bitstream. You further confused the issue by comparing analog (component) and digital (firewire) transmission interconnections which is comparing apples to oranges. Regardless, the entire discussion points above were not really germane to your original question which is why DVD recorder manufacturers weren't providing a direct HD data/signal path from the onboard digital tuner to the recorder analog/digital high resolution outputs and I think my response pretty much covered that and showed that it really had nothing to do with component outputs, digital vs. analog, or compressed vs. non-compressed digital video. It simply boils down to they don't need nor can they use a high resolution output from their digital tuners for DVD recording and due to cost reasons their is no compelling reason to otherwise provide a direct high resolution feed from their digital tuners so they can use a cheaper SD digital tuner.

You are hung up on "uncompressed" analog component video being some sort of impediment to HD recording which simply is not the case.I'm not "hung up", it was just my understanding. If there is no problem, then why isn't there any devices with component inputs at the industrial or consumer level (at least that I have ever seen)? Industrial uses SDI and consumer (my understanding) uses 1394.You further confused the issue by comparing analog (component) and digital (firewire) transmission I wasn't really "comparing" them, but just mentioned them since, for example, D-VHS uses 1394 for recording and STBs' are suppose to have 1394 outs for recording. this is NOT an impediment to recording from an "uncompressed" analog component recorder input since the limiting factor is the real time analog-to-digital compression circuit that converts the analog HD signal to a digital mpeg2 or mpeg4 bitstream. Since it has to be in the MPEG2 or 4 format, it really can't be at the component level, which means it can't be recorded without an additional process at the recorders end, correct? It simply boils down to they don't need nor can they use a high resolution output from their digital tuners for DVD recording and due to cost reasons their is no compelling reason to otherwise provide a direct high resolution feed from their digital tuners so they can use a cheaper SD digital tuner. Cost, I understand, other reasons I don't, considering that there are 'monitors' out there along with older HD stes that didn't have a HD tuner. I find it hard to believe the slight additional manufacturing cost would add that much to the retail cost of the device considering the additional market it would open.

My main suspicion was, this was just another MPAA tactic. No idea why, but it wouldn't of surprised me given their stranglehold on the industry.

I'm not "hung up", it was just my understanding. If there is no problem, then why isn't there any devices with component inputs at the industrial or consumer level (at least that I have ever seen)? Industrial uses SDI and consumer (my understanding) uses 1394.

There are a number of DVD recorders that have or had component inputs for recording, but since DVD's must be recorded at 480i they only need or accept SD analog inputs. If you want to talk other consumer "devices" (such as D-VHS recorders or DVRs) then this is the wrong forum. In general, though, the lack of DVD recorder or other recording devices with direct digital inputs such as 1394, DVI, or HDMI IS probably due to content provider paranoia for consumer generation of exact digital copies of content because there is certainly NO technical reason why it couldn't be done.

Since it has to be in the MPEG2 or 4 format, it really can't be at the component level, which means it can't be recorded without an additional process at the recorders end, correct?

Once again you are confusing the issue by comparing an analog component signal with a digital bitstream (e.g., mpeg2, mpeg4). All DVD recorders and HDD recorders (DVRs and HDD/DVD combo units) only have analog inputs (we covered the reasons why above - you only need 480i for DVDs AND content providers abhor direct digital recording of video content whether it be SD or HD) and since DVDs or even HDDs (for SD or HD content) store digital data you HAVE TO do some sort of analog to digital conversion regardless of bandwidth. SD DVDs use MPEG2 compression by specification but SD or HD content recorder to other digital media such as a HDD or flash memory chip can use any uncompressed or compressed digital scheme such as mpeg2, uncompressed avi, mpeg4, H.264, DV avi, or whatever - the limitation is the digital bandwidth not the fact that the analog signal is fed into the recorder via COMPONENT, S-VIDEO, COMPOSITE, or RF. The ideal method for recording HD content is direct digital whether it be from a digital input via 1394, HDMI or through a direct digital (HD) PIPELINE from an onboard digital tuner.

Cost, I understand, other reasons I don't, considering that there are 'monitors' out there along with older HD stes that didn't have a HD tuner. I find it hard to believe the slight additional manufacturing cost would add that much to the retail cost of the device considering the additional market it would open.

Believe me, with the exponential sales of digital televisions over the past year (99% with onboard tuners) the non-tuner monitor sector is a very small and unprofitable minority. Once again I point to the relative lack of variety in standalone/outboard digital HD tuners available for sale.

Cost, I understand, other reasons I don't, considering that there are 'monitors' out there along with older HD stes that didn't have a HD tuner. I find it hard to believe the slight additional manufacturing cost would add that much to the retail cost of the device considering the additional market it would open.It is a declining market, it is a dead market. It is unfortunate that many people with OTA reception needs bought into the "HD-ready" marketing and bought HD sets with no OTA HD tuners. For the past 2 years, per FCC phase in mandates, large HD sets have included ATSC tuners. No one sells or buys "HD-ready" TVs anymore. Hence, there is no growing market for add-on HD tuners, rather a continuously declining one. This offers little to no incentive for manufacturers to go out of their way to supply new products that provide that functionality.

If you need an external ATSC tuner, buy one now. There is Samsung and I believe a couple others on the market. They are all expensive ~$200. They won't get any cheaper and will eventually fade away.

CES; Cheap Electronic $hit

CES; Cheap Electronic $hit

Are you just trying to get something off your chest or are you trying to make a point related to a previous post (because its not obvious at least to me why the above is relevant to the thread)?

If you need an external ATSC tuner, buy one now. There is Samsung and I believe a couple others on the market. They are all expensive ~$200. They won't get any cheaper and will eventually fade away.

They may not completely go away, with the DTV transition the market may briefly expand for a while, then disappear a year or two later.

That said, I get pretty amazing results recording HD from a Samsung DTB-H260F box to my Toshiba, and then burning a 16:9 DVD from that.

Hence, there is no growing market for add-on HD tuners,

Except maybe for front projection displays, which apparently don't include any tuners at all (analog or digital) for some reason. But this is a niche market.

They may not completely go away, with the DTV transition the market may briefly expand for a while, then disappear a year or two later.

That said, I get pretty amazing results recording HD from a Samsung DTB-H260F box to my Toshiba, and then burning a 16:9 DVD from that.

Except those will likely be SD outboard ATSC tuners not HD like your Samsung.

Are you just trying to get something off your chest or are you trying to make a point related to a previous post From you post;It is unfortunate that many people with OTA reception needs bought into the "HD-ready" marketing and bought HD sets with no OTA HD tuners. For the past 2 years, per FCC phase in mandates, large HD sets have included ATSC tuners.

From you post;

Uh, that wasn't my post and what did that post have to do with "CES"?

You lost me...

Except maybe for front projection displays, which apparently don't include any tuners at all (analog or digital) for some reason. But this is a niche market.

I was in that quandary. I wanted a tuner for my projector to show digital channels. But for about the same price I got the Phillips recorder with the digital tuner. Granted, the output is not HD but 480. But the change in quality of the picture on my screen is dramatic.

Most of the older projectors do not show 1080 but are still down in the 480 to 740 or a bit higher (as mine is). Which are just fine with the digital signal from the recorder shown on a 100 inch screen. So even for front projectors, separate tuners are not necessary. Plus, instead of upgrading to a 1080 projector, it was just as cheap to buy a 42" LCD 1080i/p TV which also has PIP, which my projector cannot, do and I use all the time with football.

The projector now is mostly for DVDs.

Which is a long winded way of saying I agree with you, but even there the market is exceptionally small.

so bottom line there is no way to recorder HD cable or DVR HD recordings to a device that has component or HDMI inputs? Firewire is not active by most cable companies so in other words there is no way??

DVHS decks do not have component or HDMI too I believe

inputs

First - you do realize that you can edit your posts after submission so you don't have to post multiple times to get your thoughts out on a single subject...

DVHS recorders DO have component inputs but rely on firewire links for digital HD feeds from cable boxes. DVHS decks also have RF inputs but its not clear whether they have on board ATSC/QAM tuners or just NTSC (post if you know by first hand experience), although an onboard tuner will only allow recording of unscrambled channels. HD Tivo has digital tuners and cable card to enable HD recording directly from the cable feed.