I'm just going to rambel a bit here. I really don't have a question, but I'd be interested in seeing what sort of comments folks on this board may have.

I've recently become aware of just how many people are buying HDTV sets, getting HD Cable service (or satellite service I presume), but don't actually get HD. To make it worse, they think they are getting HD and can't see what the big deal is. The picture looks the same on HD as it does on SD to them. And it is! The reason is they have no idea that they need to use a different type of cable between their cable box and TV. They simply use the same composite video cable, S-Video cable or worse - the channel 3/4 modulator connection they used in the past.

Last week two people at work who have been using HD sets with HD cable service for several months found out that I know a bit about this stuff and they asked me why they don't see much difference with HD. In both cases they were using the same Composite cable to connect the HD cable box to the TV that they used with their old SD box and TV. Then I found out my Uncle is complaining that he doesn't see any difference between SD and HD. Same thing.

These aren't stupid people. The folks at work are software and mechanical engineers. But the level of ignorance is stunning.

Yeah, they should be reading the manual or asking for advice, but they didn't need to do that with their old TV equipment - so why should hooking up HD be so much more complicated?

And don't get me started with stretch and zoom modes. Just try to get my 80 year old Mom to understand this stuff.

It seems to me that the industry blew it on this transition and a lot more work still needs to be done to make it a no-brainer for average TV viewers to use this technology.

These are people that don't RTFM. The manual that came with their HD equipment explained it pretty well but they didn't read it. If it was like mine, it had good, better, best diagrams in it that explained everything. They probably have problems with their cars and computers as well.

Ernie

These aren't stupid people. Americans are lazy, period. That want instant results with no work. Turn it on and it better work and never break. :rolleyes:

Be it a outdoor antenna, building a stand for a TV, running cables within a house, building their own computer or owing their own DVR vs renting one from the CC.

Laziness, perhaps: but stupidity, no!

Now this isn't going to be a rant for true HD -- because all that causes is perhaps 6 or 7 people at the most on this entire forum saying Amen! and about 395 station/provider defenders taking umbrage.

So I won't name names, but can only ask: What has HD TV come to when I'm sometimes watching a football game on ESPN-HD on my 57" CRT RPTV and then I get better PQ by immediately turning the same game on on my analog set!

And I don't need a calibration! Once in a great while, some games -- almost always CBS, but on infrequent occasions, Fox -- have HD PQ this ranter can live with!

Some people will go the extra mile to learn about something, and some won't. I don't think it has anything to do with being lazy, just better things to do with their time. Although, yes I think in some cases it does have to do with laziness or ignornace.

Most people who come to this forum more than once a week, or once an hour, probably have a genuine interest in AV equipment or getting the most from their equipment. IOW, they want to learn.

Most people just want their stuff to work, and I don't blame them.

BTW, I had my HD set connected to analog cable for 6 months before I got the crazy idea to connect the TV to an antenna to see if there were any digital stations in the area. The wife thought I was nuts until we both saw actual HD.

Americans are lazy, period. That want instant results with no work. Turn it on and it better work and never break. :rolleyes:

That's how television has been for fifty years. Just plug it in and get a picture. With cable you don't even have to mess around with an antenna.

I'm sure most people's heads start spinning when they read about component cables, HDMI, 5.1 receivers, optical cables and a ton of other stuff. They're just happy to see a nice picture and hear decent sound.

We got our first HDTV Saturday - an Olevia 32 inch LCD - I'm ... just...speechless.. at.. seeing .... true HDTV - first show was "Shark" on Sunday night (besides the NASCAR race on ABC in the afternoon) - our local CBS station's news was even eye-popping (WRAL - whole studio is in HDTV). OTA of course, since we are not going to upgrade Dish for quite a while. Even the SD DBS isn't too bad - put the set on "Aspect" mode, but when I see 16:9 SDTV (DVDs, stuff from Discovery) put it into ZOOM1- it still looks good. Part of that is NOT sitting too close to the TV - we usually sit about 10-11 feet away.

Laziness, perhaps: but stupidity, no!Lazy to learn. That is stupid! At least, take some time to learn the basics.

A friend of mine, who is cheap, buys when he gets a 'deal' (above and below board). It winds up with a POS and wonders why the quality (audio and/or video quality) isn't that good. He does it with TVs' all the time. 18 sets (so he says, it's hard to remember where all of them are) in his household and only one of them was something decent.
He buys a Viewsonic LCD that looks terrible and now he wouldn't touch any LCD. I never saw a Viewsonic LCD that looked good. Then he buys a Toshiba (or Hitachi) Plasma (many know what I think about plasma) that is made by someone else, and he doesn't like that either. It has to be the slowest channel changer on the planet and there is a burn alreadyon the left side only after a few weeks of occasional use.
Both are stupid decisions. He is not "stupid", just has to buy a 'bargain'. :rolleyes:

Most people just want their stuff to work, and I don't blame them.


Hence the birth of The Geek Squad and the new breed of techie handymen who now hook up a person's gadgets like old-style handymen hook up a person's kitchen faucet.

Those who don't read the directions are destined to pay more.

...........lazy to read.
This is what college is all about? And they pay people more that went there. :rolleyes: :mad:

I think that the HDMI cable - when it becomes a true standard, may at last, help to rectify this. One cable, carrying sound and vision, relatively idiot proof. If they ship an HDMI cable in the box as well - even better.

Component connections with 5 RCA (3 x Video, 2 x Analogue Audio and either a TOSLINK or 6th RCA for digital audio) are always going to challenge those who aren't adventurous - as the scope for getting it wrong (even with colour coding) is high.

Over in Europe we've had the single SCART connector (bidirection composite video and stereo audio, and Uni Directional RGB analogue or S-video) since the early 80s - allowing a single high-quality connection between set-top boxes, VCRs and DVD players. As a result people are less likely to use their RF connection - or composite when RGB is available. The SCART connector is awfully designed - and SD only - but the benefit of having a single connector to connect devices cannot be underestimated.

Over here HDMI is often referred to as the "Digital SCART"...

The SCART connector is awfully designed Here I thought our S-video & optical connectors were bad. They are too small and hard to insert, because of trying to figure out the correct orientation and the small size. Both can be dislodged easily. The last point can be said about the common 'RCA' connector.

Sorry I have no sympathy for someone who spends four-figures on a purchase and knows nothing about it. I've never operated that way on anything, be it a car, a TV, or something else. Those who are too lazy to learn about something are doomed to poor quality.

It's made patently clear in any HD device manual I've read that you have to use a component or HDMI connection to actually get HD. If people can't figure that out, then they should be buying the TV from a knowledgable shop that will CORRECTLY hook the set up for them. Not the retarded installers who hook up an HDTV using coaxial cable (and yes, that still happens).

Too small and hard to insert.... h-m-m-m. ;)

I guess that can also be applied to IEE1394, USB and HDMI. They can also become "dislodged" easily.

So I guess basically, you dislike all connectors, possibly with the exception of DB-15 and RS-232?

Is DVI okay? Or does DVI-A, DVI-I and DVI-D get too complicated also. :)

then they should be buying the TV from a knowledgable shop that will CORRECTLY hook the set up for them..........and then sell them 'Monster' cables. ;)
(Couldn't resist) I guess that can also be applied to IEE1394, USB and HDMI.I did forget 1394. USB really isn't a problem since the size/weight of the cable to the connector mass is not out of proportion. HDMI is OK.
No, I don't like connectors you need a maginfying glass and flashlight to see which end is up and fall out with just a slight 'tug' of the cable as what happens when you are re-arranging inputs and cables behind a A/V device, distrubing another cable.

The rest of your post isn't worthy of a reply.

C'mon... USB and HDMI is no different than the others for the potential to become easily dislodged. They are small IMO and can be difficult to insert correctly, but it's not a painstaking as some make it out to be.

You don't need to reply to my other comments. But, based on your opinion (right or wrong), they are the only connectors that are large, provide a 50/50 shot of getting inserted properly with the first attempt and can be physically locked down.

The bottom line is that like 'em or not... many of these connectors will be around for a long time and as time progresses, I bet that the cables will get smaller and trickier and we get older, grumpier and less patient.

C'mon... USB and HDMI is no different than the others for the potential to become easily dislodged.Dislodged yes, easily, no. At least not as easy as those optical midgets which we discussed a couple of months ago.

Yes, they will be around, but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

Super... you don't like Toslink. Fair enough. But you now started on S-video, RCA and now SCART (which you'll not see here). That doesn't leave much else. ;)

I will agree that there are now too many cable types/standards/restrictions. Utopia would be one cable for any/all. HDMI may address that issue, but that's a lo-o-o-o-ong way off before there's 100% compliancy.

I guess we all have to play the cards we're dealt. Hold 'em or fold 'em.

Too small and hard to insert.... h-m-m-m. ;)

I guess that can also be applied to IEE1394, USB and HDMI. They can also become "dislodged" easily.

So I guess basically, you dislike all connectors, possibly with the exception of DB-15 and RS-232?

Is DVI okay? Or does DVI-A, DVI-I and DVI-D get too complicated also. :)

That was directed at some else, but I'm going to give my two cents on this issue.

Of all those you mentioned, HDMI is the only one that I've had to use lacing tape and tie it to the projector to force it to stay in the one position where all the connections were made (when it moved ever so slightly it would lose the red signal).

If I were ruler of the universe, we would be using DVI connectors exclusively. But with a firewire style network protocol so that devices can be daisy-chained rather than the star-style protocol that HDMI uses that forces all the cable to be routed to one unit.

My only issue with DVI connectors is that they're a pain to pull through a wall due to their size. But I'd rather deal with that instead of having to fight connection issues.

Remember the old days? Bare speaker wires and RCA connectors.
Unfortunately, time marches on, technology changes (good and bad) and no one can agree on a "universal" connector. Everyone wants to 'corner the market' and make big profits. IMO, all they do is piss off the consumer by making connectivity more complicated and frustrating and also raises prices of gear to accomodate the xx number of connetivity options. Not a darned thing you (we) can do about it unfortunately.

Personally.... I'd love to see RJ type connectors for everything.

.........and then sell them 'Monster' cables. ;)
(Couldn't resist)


Hah, true, but that just goes back to the first part of my post above.... :)


IMO, all they do is piss off the consumer by making connectivity more complicated and frustrating and also raises prices of gear to accomodate the xx number of connetivity options. Not a darned thing you (we) can do about it unfortunately.

The funny thing is that there has been a high bandwidth standard in the pro video world for YEARS that can handle 1080p for long distances with no handshake issues, but for some reason, coaxial cable with BNC connectors has never been adopted for consumer video (ignoring the industry's bend-over-and-take-it from the MPAA regarding encrypted video).

I don't expect a single connector for all. BTW, I was referring to the smaller 4 pin 1394 connector. My bad, I should of stated that.

Regarding:
Optical connectors; why wasn't it designed with a quarter turn (since there is no 'up')?
1394 & S-video; Why so small and still no locking provision?

Funny, no one mentioned XLR. Now, that's a connector! ;)

I don't expect a single connector for all. BTW, I was referring to the smaller 4 pin 1394 connector. My bad, I should of stated that.

Regarding:
Optical connectors; why wasn't it designed with a quarter turn (since there is no 'up')?
1394 & S-video; Why so small and still no locking provision?

Funny, no one mentioned XLR. Now, that's a connector! ;)
i used to solder my own xlr connectors/cables together back in the '70s & '80s when i played in bands, never had a single failure. (not so much because of my craftsmanship but due to the robustness of connectors.) id hate to have to put together an hdmi cable.

due to the robustness of connectors.Yep, that's wht I mentioned them. Just to expensive for consumer audio and they are just too large (the opposite extream).

Regarding:
Optical connectors; why wasn't it designed with a quarter turn (since there is no 'up')?

No quarter turn since it is not "locking" interface. There is no up/down/left/right, but it is a "keyed" connector and only one way it can be inserted. Much like S-Video and many other type of small connections. Glasses, light and patience is all that's needed.

..........It seems to me that the industry blew it on this transition and a lot more work still needs to be done to make it a no-brainer for average TV viewers to use this technology.Indeed. Which accounts for the popularity of AVS.

it is not "locking" interface.One of the problems. Glasses, light and patience is all that's needed.Never needed any of that with BNC, XLR, RCA, PL-259, N, Phone (1/4"), Bannana plugs, Coxial power, VGA, Serial, ............
Give me time, I will think of some more.

Indeed. Which accounts for the popularity of AVS.
ive had very few problems w my ht gear for last 3 yrs, after being in avs for 10 mos i have even fewer problems. IM LOVING IT!

I feel sorry when non-technical people experience ground loop problems. They hook everything up like the manuals say and they get a hummmm. Maybe I'm unlucky but when I got my subwoofer, I had to fix two group loop problems.

One ground loop was getting in through a coaxial SPDIF cable from a device that didn't output optical. There are no SPDIF isolation cables so I made a cable with a transformer in it and that fixed it. The other was the more common ground loop through CATV. I had to buy a $60 isolator for that.

I feel sorry when non-technical people experience ground loop problems. They hook everything up like the manuals say and they get a hummmm. Maybe I'm unlucky but when I got my subwoofer, I had to fix two group loop problems.

One ground loop was getting in through a coaxial SPDIF cable from a device that didn't output optical. There are no SPDIF isolation cables so I made a cable with a transformer in it and that fixed it. The other was the more common ground loop through CATV. I had to buy a $60 isolator for that.
'i dont got no manuals'. the only problem ive had recently is a ground loop (at least i think thats what it is). on my 1973 pioneer qa800a 'extreme vintage' 'ht' (it has preamp outs with which someday i wish to drive power amps that will drive altec legacy a7s or original altec 'vot's)(it sounds phenominal !)(sp?) amp. i run a 25' line level rca cable (im pretty sure its not the cause of the hum) from a stereo tape monitor output into a jvc stereo receiver (this connection is for 2 ch music listening only, not the ht) in my kitchen, (a 2nd 'zone' as they say)(the two rooms are adjacent to each other so the combined 8 spkrs (6 advent model ones in ht/2 nakamichi studio monitors in kitchen)(?) produce an awesome sound w the sweet spot in the middle). that works fine until i plug the rca line level audio outs from my computer into the jvc. then the 'HUMMMMMMMM'. the comcast cable (w br'db'nd connection) is the only other common connection. i think i know how to fix it but im too lazy (it would be a major undertaking). the quick fix is to unplug the tape monitor and the hum goes away but i lose the 2nd zone. (or i can unplug the computer audio). i can live w it for the time being. it 'only' affects music listening, not the ht 'experience'. i should say, i have to choose one or the other, no prob!

People do not always have lots of time to spend with manuals.

When I bought a scanner for my PC I was irritated that I had to spend an hour reading a manual to get it to work. Especially since I expected to use it for maybe 5 minutes a month maximum.

On the other hand I use my TV maybe 2 hours a day or more and thus I expect to read the manuals throughally to get the maximum potential out of it. Actually I bought my first HDTV before I discovered AVS and had to search many stores and ask many clueless sales people for information. I did get the information I needed and after much searching got the HDTV and service that was right for me.

By the way when I got my HDTV I hooked up the audio receiver to all of my components and it took several days and much trial and error. As I was sweating over this hook up my wife made the comment that I have a BS in Electrical Engineering and a MS in Computer Science and I had great difficulty. She asked how some one without that background could do the job. An example of the problems I encountered was the fact that I needed to hook up my receiver to the HDTV using component, s-video, and composite since some sources used all of these different video modes. The Toshiba HDTV warned in the manual not to hook up both the s-video and composite at the same time to the same input. I had hooked these up to different inputs but when I returned two days later to add another device, I had forgotten the limitation and hooked both up. This burned out the composite cable and caused my composite inputs to be flakey for 6 months until I figured out to throw out the composite cable.

Rick R

i run a 25' line level rca cable (im pretty sure its not the cause of the hum) from a stereo tape monitor output into a jvc stereo receiver

25 feet may be too long for an unbalanced cable depending on where it's going. I picked up hum with a 15 foot cable back when I had a VCR. Sometimes I think there's enough 60 hz flowing through the air in my living room to power a small appliance.

My vote for worst connector type of all time:

S Video.

My 13 yr old just broke one off in his TV. And good luck getting the orientation correct.

I would not disagree.

Having a nice bright flashlight helps alot :)

I would not disagree.

Having a nice bright flashlight helps alot :)

Yes, and at my age, strong reading glasses, also ;)

Yes, and at my age, strong reading glasses, also ;)

Amen....

I'm a college professor that works with very intelligent people. Yet when I mention that I've got three HDTVs and am excited that DirecTV is adding more HD channels to it's service I see eyes start to glaze over. I'll mention my search for an HDMI switch and get one or two "uhm, what's an HDMI?"s.

I suspect it's the fact that new technology HAS the old yellow/red/white RCA connectors on it that keeps consumers from reading the manual. I suspect it's that most A/V furniture makes it VERY hard to get behind the gear to even notice the odd new connectors much less wonder what they are there for. They pull out their old DirecTV or Cable box, unplug the yellow/red/white cables, then use those same cables to plug in the new box before sliding it into the cabinet.

I also suspect that if the TV works, no further investigation seems required. If you read the manual and it suggests using HDMI cable or component cables, but have never heard of either before, most people will give up because after all their TV IS working.

Then of course there are the few who know they payed $2.97 for the Yellow/Red/White cable from Radio Shack 10 or 20 years ago, and are so shocked by the $40 to $100 cost of an HDMI cable (from BestBuy or CircuitCity) that buying one (that they aren't sure they really need anyway) is out of the question. DirecTV has at least started including the HDMI cable with it's HD receivers. It's a start.

Then there will be the millions of consumers that will never have an A/V receiver. The sound from the HDTVs built-in speakers will seem fine, and that same-old audio will be the other reason most aren't impressed with HDTV.

I personally try and spread the word with actions. I regularly invite friends over to my house to watch a HD-DVD movie or HD football game on HDTV. With a 7.1 sound system hooked up and either my 1080 projector or my 46" HDTV LCD as the video, no one leaves without understanding what true HDTV is all about.

These aren't stupid people. The folks at work are software and mechanical engineers. Engineers ... and they didn't read the manuals that came with their new equipment. What a disgrace !

I regularly invite friends over to my house to watch a HD-DVD movie or HD football game on HDTV. With a 7.1 sound system hooked up and either my 1080 projector or my 46" HDTV LCD as the video, no one leaves without understanding what true HDTV is all about.That's the way to do it. A picture (especially live and in person) is worth a thousand words.

the technology created its own issues

18 digital formats, too many options with equipment and hardware...lcd, plasma, projection, etc, connection...hdmi, component, screen formats, stretch modes, sd and hd.

How are you going to train the masses on all that stuff?

I spent hours trying to educate my parents on how to operate their equipment and they still do not understand

too many options and you can’t just bring it home and plug it in.

With the Internet now a days there's no excuse for people not knowing about HD, or any new technology. I don't buy anything or hook up anything without first logging on to, AVS, or any of the other hundreds of forums out there to do a little homework on what I'm buying or hooking up..

But that said most of the American customers has a child like mentality. Most have the 'we want what we want and we want it now' mentality... And the retailers love it when a customer walks into their store with that mentality..

With the Internet now a days there's no excuse for people not knowing about HD, or any new technology.How many do you know of that don't use their ISP POP based e-mail (that they are paying for) because they don't know how to or want to bother to set it up? They would rather use an ad supported, web based version.

With the Internet now a days there's no excuse for people not knowing about HD, or any new technology. I don't buy anything or hook up anything without first logging on to, AVS, or any of the other hundreds of forums out there to do a little homework on what I'm buying or hooking up..

But that said most of the American customers has a child like mentality. Most have the 'we want what we want and we want it now' mentality... And the retailers love it when a customer walks into their store with that mentality..

Lots of people don't have the internet, though (think: elderly parent, low-wage workers, people in areas without H/S internet, etc). But, you'd think there was a viable market (to the manufacturers) for simple Plug-n-Play technologies, too.

Lots of people don't have the internet, though (think: elderly parent, low-wage workers, people in areas without H/S internet, etc). But, you'd think there was a viable market (to the manufacturers) for simple Plug-n-Play technologies, too.

When I say customers I mean the 20 thru 50 crowd.. I have parents in the late 70's and there's no way I meant to say that the elderly should be expected to keep up with and understand all this new technology..A few years ago I set my parents up with a computer and internet, and they love it. But no matter how much 'homework' they did would they ever understand it, nor would they understand HD TV's..

I should have been clearer in my previous post.

I think that the HDMI cable - when it becomes a true standard, may at last, help to rectify this. One cable, carrying sound and vision, relatively idiot proof. If they ship an HDMI cable in the box as well - even better.

I went over to my sister's house to help them hook up a their new HDTV to the cable company DVR they had just got for it. On the way, I stopped at Big Lots and picked up a $12 HDMI cable. My sister was very puzzled why the DVR came with such bulky cables (12 ft. component and audio) instead of a single HDMI cable like I had used.

OTOH, Passport didn't enable audio on the SA8300HD's HDMI by default, I had to go into the DVR menu and turn it on. My sis's spouse said he had never seen that settings menu before (they have an identical DVR in their bedroom), I found it by simply hitting the remote's 'A' button when the base menu screen said 'Hit A for additional settings'.

Manufacturers need to get away from the "Monster" mentality, start bundling HDMI cables, and maybe even stop bundling lower-end connectors. (Alas, Tivo has taken a step backwards -- they bundled an HDMI cable with the Series 3, but not the Tivo HD.) I say this even though I'm using component myself. HDMI is an even easier hookup than RF, which makes it the first to have a decent chance of displacing it.

When I upgraded to a Dish Network 211 HD receiver in my bedroom I discovered that they included a HDMI cable with the receiver. I thought that was kind of nice.

Rick R