Maybe it is partially true that makers of dvd recorders feel there is not a good enought market for the hard drives in recorders but looking at the dvd recorders with vcr also cost as much as a some dvd recorders that have hard drives.

It appears to me that people buying this units are paying more for the vcr/dvd that a vcr would cost by itself. I think that its probably a combination of people not knowing enought about the hard drive dvd recorders uses and/or they don't record that much.

I just cannot see using a dvd recorder without a hard drive (I have a sansui which of course will not work now and it was not used much) as recording directly on dvd is risky for stuff that I want to want such as a series as the dvd disc might have a problem (which did not happen to vcr tapes) and not record what I wanted as I have used the hard drive to dub to quite a few discs and have had several become unusable as I tried to write to them.

I do have directivos which I use since 2000, but the hard drive dvd recorder which allows editing of things plus the high speed dubbing makes it to me a must along with dvd hard drive dvrs (since the dvrs cannot do the aforementioned tasks).

I just cannot see using a dvd recorder without a hard drive.Me, neither.

Since all I have is OTA HD, I use a Sony DHG-HDD500 for all my OTA.

For all the other E* SD stuff I get, I've used three different, standalone HDD models. I only occasionally will put something on DVD, but when I do, I at least have full editing capabilities built into the units.

So my main usage for them is for time-shifting. I wouldn't have that much use for a non-HDD unit (although I'm sure I would still have one if that's all that had ever been available).

I know a lot of people will use the argument that it's not worth it, but it's just the principal with me of not paying anything more to the providers for the equipment and priviledge to use it. I'm not one that needs all of the extra, TiVo-like features, anyways. I've gotten plenty of good usage out of TVGOS during this time (and it's always worked), and my Panny EH75V's TVGOS even works with satellite. And I don't mind setting manual timers if I have to - I don't really record THAT many programs.

I have treated all three units with care (four, counting the Sony), and have never had a problem with any of them. If any of them break down, I will most likely get them repaired (especially the Panny's, for only $130.00 - the regional repair facility is only three towns south of me).

So I feel that I'm sitting pretty good right now. If I ever decide I want to upgrade to provider-HD, then I'll just cough up and pay. But, other than maybe ESPN1 & 2-HD, and my local RSN-HD (which E* doesn't even offer yet), the HD packages don't appeal to me that much yet. I have no use for most of the lame, cut-rate, repetitive programming on the national SD channels as it is, so why would I want to pay that much more for the HD versions? Especially when many of them are just showing majority upconverted SD at this stage anyways? And some are even using that godawful-looking "Stretch-o vision" on their 4:3 programs! Besides, my current display handles the SD I do watch respectably enough.

I agree. HDD DVD recorders are the only way to go if you want to take advantage of the full suite of capabilities. And within the subset of HDD DVD recorders there are those that do things better than others. Seems like everybody has their favorite based on how they use them.

But that being said I recently did something I thought I would never do. I purchased a non HDD DVD recorder. A Panasonic EZ47K. Not because it offers great DVD recording features. But rather because I can time shift full 16x9 widescreen via its digital tuner.

My primary DVD HDD recorder doesn't even need a tuner. I don't use it. I have an HD DVR from my cableco. I either record directly to the HDD DVD recorder through its A/V inputs or directly to the cableco HD DVR. Recording directly to the DVD recorder using its internal TVGOS guide with the IR blaster means the cableco HD DVR is out of commission. Unless I want to watch what is being recorded. Which is typically not the case.

So there are times when the HD DVR is busy. I would let the DVR do its thing and I'd switch to the internal tuner of my HD TV. Problem is no time shifting. Now with the EZ47K I can time shift using DVD Ram (no HDD). I was impressed with the PQ when testing this watching football (widescreen 16x9) over the weekend. It worked great.

I paid a little over a hundred bucks for the EZ47K. Is it being used as a DVD recorder? Nope. But there are uses for these HDD less DVD recorders. I might even try burning a DVD or two. But nothing comes close to a full featured HDD DVD recorder.

A hundred bucks? Not bad.

That's why I always recommend a model that uses DVD-RAM when people come here asking about them. At least you can record in full 16:9, and it's still like having a mini-hard drive and will let you do "time slip" or "chase play".

And if you're using the EZ47K with Dish, just like last year's EH55 and EH75, if you set the recordings from your Dish guide, the recorder will start and stop automatically for the recordings. I don't even think they advertise that feature, but a couple of people here have mentioned it does it. With my EH75, the recordings get titled, so I'll assume it's still that way now.

A hundred bucks? Not bad.

That's why I always recommend a model that uses DVD-RAM when people come here asking about them. At least you can record in full 16:9, and it's still like having a mini-hard drive and will let you do "time slip" or "chase play".

And if you're using the EZ47K with Dish, just like last year's EH55 and EH75, if you set the recordings from your Dish guide, the recorder will start and stop automatically for the recordings. I don't even think they advertise that feature, but a couple of people here have mentioned it does it. With my EH75, the recordings get titled, so I'll assume it's still that way now.

From ebay they are running between $100 and $125 or so if you time it right. The one I wound up with is essentially new. Looks perfect and has performed fine. There have been reports that they run hot but I have not seen it yet. I've run into some real DVD recorder toasters in the past but the EZ47 doesn't seem to run that hot. I haven't had it under a full load - meaning engaging the VCR and DVD drive at the same time during recording. That may produce more heat. I'm using it to time shift or better stated chase play which barely gets it warm to the touch.

The Panasonic approach has always confused me when talking about widescreen recording. I haven't used Panasonic much. But I just tested a widescreen recording using the digital tuner on a -R disc and it played full widescreen on another DVD player. No flag was set but as far as playback on a 16x9 screen it worked fine using -R.

The Panasonic approach has always confused me when talking about widescreen recording. I haven't used Panasonic much. But I just tested a widescreen recording using the digital tuner on a -R disc and it played full widescreen on another DVD player. No flag was set but as far as playback on a 16x9 screen it worked fine using -R.

Isn't this what has been reported in the past by other users, that the Pannys or most any recorder will record widescreen on any format disk if a proper widescreen signal is sent, which basically is just a "squished" picture in the standard ratio format of 4:3 and it is up to the player/TV to set it for widescreen playback or letter box if so needed on SD TV. Which is the problem because many recorders don't record, or only record on RAM disk, the widescreen flag that tells the devices how to play it, but playback on WS TVs are no problem.

I guess it depends on which posts you read.

I think most of the confusion as it relates to Panasonic is that it limits its flag setting to DVD-Ram. I chose to land on a DVD recorder that allows the flag setting as a recording option. So it is pretty much set it and forget it. It is not limited to a choice in media.

The Panasonic approach is then infused into a forum with terms like squished, squeezed, 16x9 flag setting, anamorphic, widescreen, full widescreen, 4:3, pillar bars, letterboxing, "it's all about the source", 480i, 1080p, progressive, interlaced and "why is my recording in a little box in the center of the screen" it is enough to make ones head swim.

Now counter this with how Panasonic approaches this in their manuals. Panasonic mentions 16x9 recording directly in the manual - when using DVD-Ram. But this is just setting the flag. Not recording a full widescreen image. It has led to some misunderstanding.

That's all. Like I said I have not used Panasonic all that often.

Ah, but adding a digital tuner into the mix changes things, as far as recording 16x9 anamorphic on a SD DVD. I don't know how the digital tuner treats a HD signal. Does it squeeze a 16x9 frame to 4x3? Does it add black bars, like a NTSC tuner? Does it give you a choice? It seems to me that there is at least the possibility that a digital tuner built into a SD DVDR might produce a squeezed anamorphic 4x3 frame, so you wouldn't be dependent on the output of your cable box. That would be a real advantage. Does anybody know what reality is with the digital tuner DVDRs?

Ah, but adding a digital tuner into the mix changes things, as far as recording 16x9 anamorphic on a SD DVD. I don't know how the digital tuner treats a HD signal. Does it squeeze a 16x9 frame to 4x3? Does it add black bars, like a NTSC tuner? Does it give you a choice? It seems to me that there is at least the possibility that a digital tuner built into a SD DVDR might produce a squeezed anamorphic 4x3 frame, so you wouldn't be dependent on the output of your cable box. That would be a real advantage. Does anybody know what reality is with the digital tuner DVDRs?

I can only speak to how the EZ47 handles it. The digital channels that are available in my case are the local OTAs. I am using the QAM portion of the tuner via cableco RF. When tuning in one of these if the program is fullscreen 16x9 the image on the HDTV is fullscreen 16x9. When recording the recorded image is also fullscreen 16x9. On any of the optical disc media. As posted above not surprising.

My guess is that if a DVD Ram is used then this will successfully play back letterboxed on a 4:3 TV. Not sure I haven't tried it. But again the full 16x9 screen image is recorded to/by the EZ47. That's a good thing.

This is typical to what my experience has been when recording via component from an STB. It is WYSIWYG. What you see is what you get - on the recorder. No squishing or squeezing required.

The tuner in the EZ47 displays all of the digital channels the same way that the QAM tuner in my HDTV does. No difference. No artifical letterboxing etc. If it is a 4:3 image it will have side bars. If it is a 16x9 image it won't. But of course the EZ47 does it at 480i.

I can only speak to how the EZ47 handles it. The digital channels that are available in my case are the local OTAs. I am using the QAM portion of the tuner via cableco RF. When tuning in one of these if the program is fullscreen 16x9 the image on the HDTV is fullscreen 16x9. When recording the recorded image is also fullscreen 16x9. On any of the optical disc media.

So, as I interpret this, your EZ47 must be recording a 16x9 image squeezed to fill a 4x3 frame, which is unsqueezed for display on your 16x9 TV. Otherwise, you would have to "zoom" your TV to get the 16x9 image to fill the screen. Have I understood you correctly? If so, that is the best reason I have heard for getting a DVDR with a QAM tuner!

No zoom. The tuner can handle the original aspect ratio that the HD feed provides. But converts it to 480i. So the result is a full widescreen 16x9 image at 480i (if the HD feed is a widescreen 16x9 aspect ratio).

Exactly what I see (record) when I set my HD STB to 480i output and record full widescreen 16x9 via component to my DVD recorder (different recorder but you get the idea).

I am intrigued, as well, with this anamorphic recording from the built-in hd-tuner strategy. I understand that you can verify that you are getting the full anamorphic 16:9 frame in 480i from the tuner by the way it appears on a widescreen tv? Is there any way to make this same verification on an sdtv?

(I know- if it gets properly letterboxed in sd, what difference should it make to me? Well I am still curious for the sake of making the optimal dvd recording for that day when I do have a widescreen tv. I don't want to find out then, that all this time, all I have been doing is recording a static letterboxed image using only half of the available vertical resolution of 480i, i.e, the lame way to record widescreen programs.)

Now here is a REAL trick technique (yet to be proven out)- what happens when you set the recording for "pan and scan" mode? I know- why in the world would you want to use this mode to record hd programs? Well remember, not all programs on an hd broadcast are in widescreen aspect. So if you are recording the complete widescreen frame on a 4:3 program, we are left with a similarly nasty situation when trying to fit a widescreen program into a 4:3 recording window. In this case, we are recording wasted space in the vertical pillar bars, which translates to wasted horizontal resolution which could have been used on the actual 4:3 region of the screen that contains content.

So maybe this is where the "pan and scan" setting could be useful? When a recording is set for this mode, is it possible that the recorder takes the widescreen image that comes from the atsc tuner, lops off the sides, and simply records what remains? If the program happens to be the 4:3 aspect (stuck inside an hd aspect frame), then the recorder will have essentially captured the 4:3 program in the best possible state (I'm hoping). I hope to investigate this further, myself, but perhaps somebody here has already checked this out and would like to weigh in?

Hello,

This seems like the proper place to ask these questions.

I as well have been experiencing difficulties finding aDVD/HD recorder.
Have been looking for quite some time now.
Just spent my afternoon speaking to a manufacture about their DVD recorder and have spoken to quite a few customeer support Reps. from different manufactures.
None seems to currently manufacture a DVD/HD recorder.
At this time I feel like this is the way to go as opposed to a DVD only recorder.
Today I almost went for DVD only recorder and found out it only works with minus DVD's.
I really find this quite strange since I have head that DVD plus disks are mush more widely accepted.
What I am looking for is DVD/HD recorder that has analog/digital tuner and can record and play on DL Plus disks.
Not interested in DVD RAM due to compatibility issues.
Today I was also told that no recorder of this type can record one channel and be able to watch another.
Find this quite strane since I can do this with a standard VCR.
Maybe someone can explain this to me?
Will be running it before cable box and after cable box.

I really appreciate any support I can get on this.

Most appreciated,

mr. panda

You say a "DVD/HD." If you mean a High definition DVD recorder (DVDR,) they are not sold in the US yet. If you mean a DVDR with a hard drive, that is usually abbreviated HDD, for hard disc drive. There are currently only two models sold in the US with a HDD, a Polaroid, and a Philips. The Philips is considered to be the best, and there is a thread here about it, thousands of posts long.

Actually, I think -R is far more popular than +R, but most machines will do both now, although they usually prefer one over the other, that is they offer more features that work with the one they prefer.

Actually, you can watch one program, while recording another, the same way you can with a VCR. The RF output of a DVDR is just a pass-through, so you can run that to the cable box, and use its tuner to tune a second program, and watch that, while recording another program tuned on the DVDR's tuner. Or, you can record a program from the cable box, using S-Vid connection to the DVDR, and use the TV's tuner to watch another channel from the RF out of the DVDR, depending on how you wire things.

The person who told you you couldn't record one program while watching another just meant that the DVDR has only one tuner, and can only tune one thing at a time. A DVDR with a HDD will let you record one thing, and watch something else already recorded on the HDD.

Ha,

I love this form!

Thank you.

I did in fact mean HDD and not HD.

Looked into the Phillips and it does not work with DL disks.

Most players I have looked at prefer Plus disks.

Will look further into this.
Especially DL Plus disks and not minus Dl's.
Yes,

You are corect about recording one channel and watching another.
This is why I do want recorder with a tuner as opposed to one without.

Would a recorder with dual tuners be the best way to go if one existed?

I really think that some manufature will come out with what I am looking for.
What do you think?
Lite on had some but they were extreamly difficult to find in the USA and they had some relibility issues.

Thank you,

mr. panda
LG had the 510 but that had some TV Guide feature that I was not interested in.

My Pio 640, no longer available in the US, prefers -R discs, but works just fine with +R DL discs, they just won't fast forward as fast as -R discs.

If you have a Comcast DVR, those are dual tuner, so I don't think a dual tuner DVDR is necessary.

Unfortunately, I don't think we will be seeing much, or any, new features/innovation in SD DVDRs in the US, as most of the manufacturers have gotten out of the market here, so waiting for improved SD DVDRs, with more features, is likely to be fruitless.

So far, the manufacturers show no signs of releasing HD, or Blu-Ray DVDRs in the US. It is my opinion that they will, eventually, when the prices drop considerably. If you can live without a digital tuner, you might want to look into getting a Pioneer from Canada, or an international/multiformat model from B&H audio/video. They will record +R DL discs. The problems are they are a bit pricey, and you don't get a manufacturer's guarantee. But they are nice machines, with large HDDs.

Hello,

Unfortunately I was unable to log into my account so I could not respond to you.

I only have comcast cable box and no DVR.
The Comcast DVR will not work for me.
That is why I was looking for a Hard Drive recorder.

I have just been informed that a dual tuner would be helpful in recording one channel and watching another.
Think that is why I have head of people hooking up two VCR together to get two tuners.
There ssems not to be any dual tuner DVD/Hard Drive recorders available from comapanies other than Comcast Etc.

I am not running High Def. and do not think Blue Ray wil go very far.
It will go the way of Beta max.
As you mention, do not expect to see any in the future.
Still do not quite understand why this is thge case.
Would had hopeed that companies wouled be more than willling to produce them in order to replace VCR's.
Really had thought that the digital tuner could record most digital cable channels just like a VCR.
Now I know they can not.
At least I can get a digital to analog converter box when the time comes.

Looked at B and H site.
They only have one very expensive model that has much more than I need and they have Toshiba.
Already have a few Toshiba units and am trying to get away from them do to reliability issues Etc.

It has been brought to my attention that you are absolutely correct regarding DVD minus disks.
Not sure where I had this totally wrong.
Really thought it was the opposite case.
But it does look like the Oppo's do not play DVD minus DL disks.
I use this as an example.

From whay you have told me, it really looks as though Hard DVD/Hard Drive recorders do record differently than a VCR.Specifically the RF output.
Am going to look into this some more to fully understand this.

Now I know why I just purchased another high end VCR.
At least I can use this in the meantime until I get this sorted out.

Most appreciated,

Mr. Panda

I'll start with the fact that I'm a newbie, I've been lurking for awhile, but I have not been contributing. I just purchased a DVD recorder without a HDD. I have the Comcast dual tuner DVR and the Toshiba DR400. While I am not able to do editing as easily like those of you with a DVD recorder that also has a built in hard disc drive, I am able to do some editing, espically if I were to use DVD+-RW.

What I am really loosing is my time. I have to manually start and stop the DVR and DVD recorder simultaneosly. If I wanted to remove commercials it takes more time, if I want to burn multiple copies it wouldn't be worth it. In my case, I just want to save a few shows to put on my shelf for reference at a later time.

I started down this road because I had some shows on my DVR that I wanted to save for later viewing. My HDD is full so I have to delete something, my only option is to burn them to a DVD, before I delete them to make more room. I didn't want to spend $300 for another box, so I grabbed the Toshiba DR400 DVD recorder from Costco for $130. If I was commited to removing all of the commercials, or doing any other editing, creating titles, chapters, making multiple copies, etc. then I wouldn't be getting a DVD recorder with a HDD either. I would invest that $300 in what I need to upgrade my PC so that I can edit shows on the PC or purchase/build a new PC or HTPC that already meets those needs. It is very obvious to me even with limited use of the DVD recorder that using a PC is way to go. Entering in titles, chapters, etc with a DVD recoder even if it has a HDD is way too difficult. A keyboard and screen are required and cutting and pasting from a web page are the way to go.

In addition if my wife wants to save a show, she can do that now too because it is quite simple. The steps required to burn a DVD are simple enough that I don't have to be there or do it for her. I am guessing that for another $200 the ease of use is not going to improve and only give more options that I don't really need. Sure I could teach her how to use a DVD w/HDD, but that would take more of my time and money.

Hello,

I must start by thanking you for the most appreciated reply.

Am trying to stay away from losing time.
That is why I really thought I did not have to go through my PC to do what I am looking for.
This would take way to much time.

I got into this because I really wanted to replace my VCR.

Really thought a HDD/DVD recorder could be used for time shifting,removing commercials Etc.
DVD for recording on for Hard Copy.

That is all the editing I was looking for.

MY Wife thought a HD would be a good choice so we did not have so many DVD's around.


You mention starting and stopping the DVD and DVR.
This is exactly whay I was looking at these.
Thought the DVD/HDD could do this by programing it the same way as VCR.

Am getting the feeling that a VCR is still the way to go until what I really want comes out but this seems to be a slim proposition at best.

I think I might have two tuners, one in the cable box and the other from the VCR or a DVD/HDD recorder.

I do have both the Philips and Polaroid version of the same DVDR/HDD. Both bought form Walmart. The Polaroid has the 80GB HD and the Philips has 160. I did read in this forum that the Philips at least will take any upgrade/replacement HDD. I dont use the YES video thing.
The Polaroid is easier - press and hold a direction button to setting timers or renaming titles or just selecting a title in the recorded items menu, and the movement is auto-repeat.
On the philips, I have to release and repress the button for everything.
The Polaroid does show remaining space in hh:mm on the recorded item menu.
Clipping commercials from a hard drive saved program on either is easy enough, but on the Philips if I do not fast forward through a commercial set, that specific segmentation will be aborted. Dont select TO segment and wander off the the bathroom for 4 or 5 minutes - you'll have to slip back to the start of that commercial. I can't say thats the case on the Polaroid.
On the Philips, most of my recording is via output form the (non-DVR) cable box - higher channels(above 99), like 149 or 111 or 172. If I record something like the 4 hours of Enterprise, I will record it as a single block then split it per episode. I'm probably wasting money putting two ep. on a DVD, but I want to watch the show straight through. I didnt even clip the commercials.
On the Polaroid, I do record form the TW DVR, and then clip the ads out. I'll usually keep a few episodes on the HDD before suring the DVD.
The Philips DVD burn is way faster than the Polaroid. The Philips has a progression icon with %. The Polaroid has an icon, but it is so far in the corner if there is a progressioin % I cant tell. I have had 0 coasters with either one. Recently I have had the Philips lock during timmed HDD recording. I had to pull the power. If it is early in a recording, it will continue form that point.
If I have a movie or program from Showtime recorded on the TW DVR that I want to save (Or I just need to make space), I might do a OTR from the DVR to the HDD, and then clip the front and ends if there is a bunch of useless filler, and then burn a DVD.
I know there is firmware update for the Philips, but I havent attempted to install it. Maybe it will help a couple of my glitchy issues.

The Polaroid was noisy (cooling fan) early on, but it got quiet on its own.

Both remotes leave plenty to be desired. Philips is not so tight that I accidently hit stop instead of pause. Polaroid is packed.
The Polaroid is a signal pass through when it is turned off. The Philips is not.
We have the Timewarner DVR in the living room. I haven't forked out the extra $10 per month to get the High Def DVR. TV spots currently advertising FREE HD...

Now, Walmart does have a newer model Philips. Still not a HD, but it does DVD upscaling and has HDMI output.

BestBuy and CircuitCity - niether carry a DVDR/HDD in store, but they will be glad to order one for you. I still like laying my fingers on the item before purchasing something like this, even if I do end up ordering online. Sams Club has only DVDR or players, none with HDD.

I am watching for a HDTV DVDR/HDD. Mom has a HDTV, and only OTA signal. She does want a replacement for the VCR, but I do not think she would be happy with a DVDR and a stack of RAM media. A HD Tivo would probably work. I don't know how thier programming subsciption works, free or basemodel since they dont have toooo many channels.

Ok, time for more coffee!

I do have both the Philips and Polaroid version of the same DVDR/HDD. Both bought form Walmart. The Polaroid has the 80GB HD and the Philips has 160. I did read in this forum that the Philips at least will take any upgrade/replacement HDD. I dont use the YES video thing.
The Polaroid is easier - press and hold a direction button to setting timers or renaming titles or just selecting a title in the recorded items menu, and the movement is auto-repeat.
On the philips, I have to release and repress the button for everything.
The Polaroid does show remaining space in hh:mm on the recorded item menu.
Clipping commercials from a hard drive saved program on either is easy enough, but on the Philips if I do not fast forward through a commercial set, that specific segmentation will be aborted. Dont select TO segment and wander off the the bathroom for 4 or 5 minutes - you'll have to slip back to the start of that commercial. I can't say thats the case on the Polaroid.

Now, Walmart does have a newer model Philips. Still not a HD, but it does DVD upscaling and has HDMI output.
The "newer" 160GB HDD Philips model you mentioned, the DVDR3575, does "auto-repeat" the arrow-key moves so you don't have to press-release each move.

It also allows you to select a "FROM" point in an edit then, if you have a "peemergency," you can Pause or keep playing, take care of the peemergency, and come back at least 10 minutes later and continue the edit (select the END point)...10 min. is all I tested both Pause and Play modes, could be more.

I wish I were a programer....

Another item I would like: when I program timer recordings on either(any for the future) DVDR/HDD I could select chapter markers, Not the All or Nothing in the settup menu - like for a commercial free movie recorded from showtime for example. I find that if chapter markers are enabled all the time, if I snip the commercials (a 2 hour recorded movie form SciFi) then burn the DVD and play - usually in another DVD player, if I hit that players NEXT Chapter button, the landing point could be anywhere, not just where the commercials were snipped form, but even to the end of a 1:25 minute from the beginning if the commercials were in just the right spots.
Adding and removing chapter markers on the fly from the HDD file would be nice. Probably just lead to other bugs.

Do Philips or Polaroid (or any DVDR/HDD mfg have a wish list forum)

I wish I were a programer....

Another item I would like: when I program timer recordings on either(any for the future) DVDR/HDD I could select chapter markers, Not the All or Nothing in the settup menu - like for a commercial free movie recorded from showtime for example. I find that if chapter markers are enabled all the time, if I snip the commercials (a 2 hour recorded movie form SciFi) then burn the DVD and play - usually in another DVD player, if I hit that players NEXT Chapter button, the landing point could be anywhere, not just where the commercials were snipped form, but even to the end of a 1:25 minute from the beginning if the commercials were in just the right spots.
Adding and removing chapter markers on the fly from the HDD file would be nice. Probably just lead to other bugs.

Do Philips or Polaroid (or any DVDR/HDD mfg have a wish list forum)
The Philips 3575 allows you to auto-chapter the HDD in 5 increments (Pio 640 can't) or you can turn it OFF, so titles on the HDD don't have any marks. Pio 640 will allow 0 auto-chapter marking + 10 and 15 min. on DVDs only.

If you set auto-chapter for zero, when you remove commercials, those will be the only chapter marks remaining in the HDD title. If you High-speed dub that to DVD, those marks are retained, but if you dub in real-time, those marks are lost and the DVD gets whatever auto-chapter setting you make, which can also be zero.

The 3575 also allows you to Delete individual chapter marks on a DVD or All chapter marks with one menu command.