Andy Parsons Says no . . .

“All players after Oct. 31 must comply with that (1.1 profile). That’s not going to change.” And for picture-in-picture features, a workaround is possible without a second video recorder, due to the larger capacity of Blu-ray, Gregorich noted: two copies of the same film can be included on one BD-50, one where the secondary picture is burned into the film, the second including only the standard film.

http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/di...C803 B6D481AA

I think no as well.

I base that thought on the fact that a player has been scrapped most likely because it won't meet the cut off date. That to me says this date won't be pushed back.

-Brian

The Blu-Companies will probably use the work around mentioned in the OP for PiP features and pretend that it can do what HD DVD does.

I also believe no. The upshot of moving the date would be to admit that the higher profiles are really giving BD a hard time.

So far all the articles and blogs are coming from minor sources - dedicated sites and publications.

If the main media like the WSJ or the NYT go ahold of the story and started stories that BD still can't do IME and IF after 16 months of being released - and if consumers buy any of the BD SAL's available today, they will not be able to see future features that are a part of HDM as a format . . .

Think the average consumer is going to say; "well I only watch the movie so it doesn't matter."

Quote "Think the average consumer is going to say; "well I only watch the movie so it doesn't matter."

I don't know if I'm the average customer but that would be my take.

I certainly am not planning to re-watch my library with the director super-imposed telling me how great he is and what an accomplisment the film represents and all that. No interest. I have only listened to parts of very few commentaries on DVD for that same reason.

-Brian

Why move the date again. The BDA doesn't seem to care about their customers anyway. Who needs special features when they have to pay almost twice as much for the disk over dvd. Who would expect that?

Will The BDA Move The 10/31/07 Date Forward?

Moving the date forward to me suggests they'll enforce the rules earlier. Is the poll not there to speculate if the date would be pushed back?

Moving the date forward to me suggests they'll enforce the rules earlier. Is the poll not there to speculate if the date would be pushed back?

I believe forward denotes the future. As in forward in time.

Tricky...

If they go forward with it, they will be selling a lot of the cheaper 1.0 profile players while 1.1 would have a higher tag (Assuming the older models drop in price). Now you have a bunch of people with 1.0 players that may not be able to play certain features and whatnot. If they go through with the Oct 31st deadline WB may actually release the 2 dozen or so HD DVD 'exclusive' titles on the format sometime early next year.

If they push 1.1 back to lets say April (another 6 months) then they will ONLY be selling 1.0 profile players this Holiday season so all movies *should* be fine. WB will be pissed as they would not be able to release those HD DVD 'exclusive' movies STILL. The Matrix is just collecting dust.

Their screwed if they do, screwed if they don't. IMO, if they actually want to keep WB Neutral/Turn BR Exclusive they better hurry up with 1.1.

This thread is anti BD FUD and as so should be deleted If the BD group gave a final date as to the implementation of a profile why is there a thread asking if the date is firm?

I pick no. The BDA has something up their sleave Im sure.

Edited out.

This thread is anti BD FUD and as so should be deleted If the BD group gave a final date as to the implementation of a profile why is there a thread asking if the date is firm?


Isn't this the second final date? I believe it was originally May 31st. If they delayed it once, theres reason to speculate they might do it again. Its not like the shelves are jam packed with 1.1 ready players, waiting on an update.

This thread is anti BD FUD and as so should be deleted If the BD group gave a final date as to the implementation of a profile why is there a thread asking if the date is firm?

I have yet to see an official announced from the BDA saying 1.1 is FOR sure going to happen Oct. 31st. Heck, I can't even remember the last time they mentioned it...when it was delayed back in March?

I believe forward denotes the future. As in forward in time.


Yeah but the general perception is that time moves forward, So it would actually be pushing the date BACK. :)

I believe forward denotes the future. As in forward in time.


Yeah but the general perception is that time moves forward, So it would actually be pushing the date BACK. :)

If they were going to push the date back again it would have been announced already.

For all practical purposes, it will be delayed until 2008. What we will have is a deadline -- a date on the calendar -- and no Profile 1.1 players. Studios are waiting for 1.1 players to test on, and 1.1 players won't be made until studios have an abundance of content that requires 1.1.

Or the deadline may be adhered to, even though it will be a meaningless deadline, since both studios and manufacturers will delay implementing the 1.1 profile. There will be exceptions that prove the rule, of course, such as an occasional feature-rich disk that freezes up a number of 1.0 players. In any case, I believe the date will come and go without any significant progress.

One of the problems with having so many BD hardware manufacturers is that it will be impossible to get everyone on the same page. Ironically, it really helped HD DVD to have only one hardware manufacturer. That made it easy to have a single standard.

Having said that, IMHO the BD manufacturers wanted some things to remain optional just to save money. Otherwise, why would they have been so shortsighted as to skimp on memory, ethernet ports, and secondary video processors? Indeed, none of this stuff is very expensive, especially if you are making a player that will sell for $1000 or more (first generation BD).

I say no: they'll just stop launching players, and keep shipping 1.0's until sometime in 2Q 2008 or later.

I say no: they'll just stop launching players, and keep shipping 1.0's until sometime in 2Q 2008 or later.

+1

They dare not. They have no choice.

They'll have to stick to it or it will cause shockwaves and likely cost them any remaining confidence that anyone has in the format.

However, I believe that they may possibly choose to relax the requirements a tad in order to show that they can ship something this year.

But I believe that BD 1.0 players will keep on shipping for at least another year... and will make up the majority of all their standalone player sales. And I think the majority of buyers won't know what they are (not) getting, but will buy based on trust...

I think we all know what he means. However, the title should read "Will the BDA Push The 10/31/07 Date Back?"

This thread is anti BD FUD and as so should be deleted If the BD group gave a final date as to the implementation of a profile why is there a thread asking if the date is firm?

Because the final date was 7/31/07, until it got delayed to the new final date of 10/31/07.

I just love this obsession HD-DVD people have with BRD 1.1.
Ever notice the total lack of concern from the BRD side?
PiP? Ya gotta be jokin.

I just love this obsession HD-DVD people have with BRD 1.1.
Ever notice the total lack of concern from the BRD side?
PiP? Ya gotta be jokin.

HD does what BD can't and I am not going to spend twice as much on a Blu-Ray player if it can't at minimum equal what HD DVD does.

I say no: they'll just stop launching players, and keep shipping 1.0's until sometime in 2Q 2008 or later.

Probably, only two players from Denon are announced, both delayed until sometime next year and one of which is MSRP $1999.99, that's right two grand. And no manufacturers including Sony have announced plans to offer an upgrade path to 1.1. Doesn't seem too promising.

Quote "Think the average consumer is going to say; "well I only watch the movie so it doesn't matter."

I don't know if I'm the average customer but that would be my take.

I certainly am not planning to re-watch my library with the director super-imposed telling me how great he is and what an accomplisment the film represents and all that. No interest. I have only listened to parts of very few commentaries on DVD for that same reason.

-Brian

I'd think that the average consumer may say something to the extent of "It's still too early to buy into HDM if the player design isn't finished yet."

This is the type of crap that scares people off. On two sides I'm torn:

1. Keep the date and not have any of the 1.1 players. There may not be any players to meet it, but J6P probably won't know that.

2. Delay the date and make it obvious to J6P that, perhaps in his/her mind that HDM is still not ready to be prime-time.

Not sure which one is worse. Advertising by the BDA that BD has the edge when it comes to interactivity just isn't true at this point in time. I know some might argue otherwise but I just can't see that one. Advertising the functionality before players can support it just isn't right.

If they delay the date and it makes a big splash with the press it could keep people from even wanting to take the dive into HDM. In J6P's mind there's not only a risk that the other format might win, but there's also a risk that all the much hyped-features won't work on your new machine. Argue the importance of features all you want, but I see this part as being a real problem as well.

Just my $0.02...

Another thread started and overrun by the usual suspects. :rolleyes:

No offense, but the 53% of you who voted that the BDA is going to change the date are either blind fanboys or not paying attention. Samsung clearly cancelled their 2400 because they can't get it out before the Oct. 31st date, so clearly the date isn't moving.

Yeesh, this is the kind of "I'll vote for whatever makes Blu-ray seem bad" crap that is making AVS seem utterly biased.

Quote "Think the average consumer is going to say; "well I only watch the movie so it doesn't matter."

I don't know if I'm the average customer but that would be my take.

I certainly am not planning to re-watch my library with the director super-imposed telling me how great he is and what an accomplisment the film represents and all that. No interest. I have only listened to parts of very few commentaries on DVD for that same reason.

-Brian

Same here. I generally don't like in movie stuff. I just want to watch the movie.

Oct 31st will come and go and the only people that will care will be hd dvd supporters. Not one consumer in the world knows about date this except people on AVS and Bluray forums.

BDA will not move the date. They will not "relax" specs either.

No offense, but the 53% of you who voted that the BDA is going to change the date are either blind fanboys or not paying attention. Samsung clearly cancelled their 2400 because they can't get it out before the Oct. 31st date, so clearly the date isn't moving.

Yeesh, this is the kind of "I'll vote for whatever makes Blu-ray seem bad" crap that is making AVS seem utterly biased.

Recent and Popular Threads:

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Animations like Shrek look great on SD DVD. WHY buy the HD version?

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Recent and Popular Threads:

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Amen, let's not be hypocritical, Blu-Boys.

I just love this obsession HD-DVD people have with BRD 1.1.
Ever notice the total lack of concern from the BRD side?
PiP? Ya gotta be jokin.

Because they want to laugh at all the people with obsolete players when 1.1 launches. They want to see the spin the BDA will give current 1.0 owners and how 1.1 is so much better then HD DVD....You know, typical BDA stuff.

Oct 31st will come and go and the only people that will care will be hd dvd supporters. Don't you consider it rather "unfair" that so many consumers will be effectively duped into buying 1.0 players because they have not been appropriately informed of this issue?

After all, when they walk into a store and see all the promotional videos talking about all these advanced features, just how are they supposed to know that none of the players on sale next to the displays can actually do it?

Don't you consider it rather "unfair" that so many consumers will be effectively duped into buying 1.0 players because they have not been appropriately informed of this issue?

After all, when they walk into a store and see all the promotional videos talking about all these advanced features, just how are they supposed to know that none of the players on sale next to the displays can actually do it?

Especially when BD companies are advertising these interactive features that they cannot even DO.

I personally think it is false advertising to do that without saying that you cannot buy players yet that can do it, and there currently are no movies that have this feature yet either.

How many people that buy a profile 1.0 BD player, will feel they got screwed when they find out they cannot play those new interactive features when they do appear on BD movies. I would suspect that those features will be advertised and current and/or future profile 1.0 BD player owners will be saying what the hell? I bought this movie because those features looked cool and now I find out my expensive player cannot play them?

This who profile thing was a very bad idea, and will be like an iceberg with most of the problems below the surface until the profile 1.1/2.0 movies start coming out.

The will NOT move the date because that would be to admit they have problems with the profiles. I also think that Warner told them if they DID change the date, it would be bye bye Warner on BD. Besides, they already have their loophole of only being required for newly "introduced" BD player requiring profile 1.1 compliance after 10/31/07.

They can milk another 6 months on that loophole alone. Of course the hidden iceberg just gets bigger and bigger, so they will have a bigger PR mess later instead of now. :eek: :p

The date will not change. But there will be a lull in announced players come the holiday shopping months. Of course Sony will just try to push more PS3s on people. Sadly, it is really the only feasible player ATM, and the only one with the possibility of meeting future Profiles. If you had told me a year ago that Blu-ray would be having the hardware meltdown, I'd have said you were crazy looking at the companies building the hardware. :eek:

Recent and Popular Threads:

Surprise! HD DVD not good enough says chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association....

Animations like Shrek look great on SD DVD. WHY buy the HD version?

Transformers = No Lossless. What will you buy instead? The SD DVD?

How many weeks will Blu-ray win in Q4?

Yeah...generally the content of threads revelas bias rather than titles. I could create a dozens of threads a day and acrew over 5,000 posts in under a year...but you already did that Lee.

If they were going to push the date back again it would have been announced already.

They waited until the last possible moment for the pushing back the date earlier in the year, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them try and slip it under the radar again.

Then again, the've got nothing to loose by sticking with the date, as nearly all the BD Player CEs seem to have their xmas units launchign prior to Oct 31st... unless profile 1.1 players are another 12 months away - which i doubt.

Don't you consider it rather "unfair" that so many consumers will be effectively duped into buying 1.0 players because they have not been appropriately informed of this issue?

Um, no. As the proud owner of a 1.0 profile player that I love, I feel far more duped for the $400 I paid for the A1, which is a PitA to use regardless of profile.

To each his own, but it always seems to be HD DVD supporters who are so "worried" about us getting "duped" Blu-ray owners seem to be enjoying their "obsolete" players just fine.

But maybe another dozen threads on the topic will help us see the light? :rolleyes:

Um, no. As the proud owner of a 1.0 profile player that I love, I feel far more duped for the $400 I paid for the A1, which is a PitA to use regardless of profile.

To each his own, but it always seems to be HD DVD supporters who are so "worried" about us getting "duped" Blu-ray owners seem to be enjoying their "obsolete" players just fine.

But maybe another dozen threads on the topic will help us see the light? :rolleyes:

I doubt many BD fans will ever see any light other than BLU. :p

Seriously, this whole BD profile discussion is not for the well (although misguided :p) informed BD fans that are here regularly. It is for the casuual consumer who might pop in here to learn more before buying a HD player for EITHER format.

Would you like us all to not talk about the BD profile problems and have a consumer say "what a lousy site AVS is. They never even knew or told anyone about this profile problem BEFORE I bought mine. Now I do not have money to buy a REAL/COMPLETE BD player because I already bought this POS that will not do what is advertised on the tv/magazines." "DAMN, why didn't anyone there tell me if they all knew about it?" :mad:

Quote "HD does what BD can't and I am not going to spend twice as much on a Blu-Ray player if it can't at minimum equal what HD DVD does."

It has also been established that since Blu Ray has nearly twice as much capacity as HD DVD that this can be done by simply doing a second version of the movie with the pip stream mixed in. So,.. it's not something HD DVD does that BD can't. Rather is something HD DVD does but BR does differently for the moment.

-Brian

I think 'yes', but they'll do it by the back door.

What does this mean?

It means a combination of some or all of the following:

- Studios being encouraged to include 2 versions of the film (1 with PinP and 1 without);
- Studios being encouraged not to release 1.1 films until the players are available;
- CE manufacturers being told to 're-release' old models if they want to put a new one out. They'll be told they can argue their BD-1000 can be sold as a BD-1000(a) and it'll be counted as the same model, not a new one, even if the upscaling chip is better, or there's a different look to the player;
- Press releases at the ready for in case anyone asks any awkward questions.

Steve W

Gregorich noted: two copies of the same film can be included on one BD-50, one where the secondary picture is burned into the film, the second including only the standard film.Wow. It's surprising to see them effectively negate their superior storage capacity in that way.

They dare not. They have no choice.

They'll have to stick to it or it will cause shockwaves and likely cost them any remaining confidence that anyone has in the format.

However, I believe that they may possibly choose to relax the requirements a tad in order to show that they can ship something this year.

But I believe that BD 1.0 players will keep on shipping for at least another year... and will make up the majority of all their standalone player sales. And I think the majority of buyers won't know what they are (not) getting, but will buy based on trust...

Best assessment so far! Thanks, rdjam. The only hitch will be the difficulty they have keeping this out of the news and keeping the customers out of the return line in the stores. If even a small number of people get upset by this, it may be hard to keep this "little secret" under wraps.

How many HD-DVD titles actualy have PiP???

Do HD-DVD owners scream because 90%+ of their movies don't have PiP???

It seems when BD doesn't have PiP it's a monumental disaster.

When HD-DVD doesn't have PiP on 90%+ of it's discs it's perfectly ok.

Go figure.

It has also been established that since Blu Ray has nearly twice as much capacity as HD DVD that this can be done by simply doing a second version of the movie with the pip stream mixed in. So,.. it's not something HD DVD does that BD can't. Rather is something HD DVD does but BR does differently for the moment.

-Brian

I think it's a little more than just having a second copy of the movie with a steady PIP window. The Bourne Identity for example, allows for an icon to appear when there is secondary content available. The user can choose to activate the PIP window to view the content or ignore the icon and continue to view the movie. Quite a bit more sophisticated than what BD is capable of. :rolleyes:

How many HD-DVD titles actualy have PiP???

Do HD-DVD owners scream because 90%+ of their movies don't have PiP???

It seems when BD doesn't have PiP it's a monumental disaster.

When HD-DVD doesn't have PiP on 90%+ of it's discs it's perfectly ok.

Go figure.

The studios are just beginning to implement this advanced functionality on HD DVD. They can't even test on BD. :D

This is really just too funny. A second copy of the film with PiP burned in ... so we'd see a match dissolve or cut ... Man, what slight of hand. I had to laugh out loud at that one.

My car has a reverse gear ... but I don't drive to work backwards.

And in my laughter, I'm coming at this not giving a hoot about interactivity at all. PiP, IME, all that stuff ... could be wrong but the only people who seem to care about it are the studios. And so that makes it important.

But even though I feel it's not of any value, it's still just unbelievable that BD has gotten itself into this.

I've got 'em both ... but have always leaned towards HD. And of late, that leaning feels pretty good.

Don't you consider it rather "unfair" that so many consumers will be effectively duped into buying 1.0 players because they have not been appropriately informed of this issue?

After all, when they walk into a store and see all the promotional videos talking about all these advanced features, just how are they supposed to know that none of the players on sale next to the displays can actually do it?

It may be more than unfair. If an ad leads a consumer to believe a product can do something that it can't really do, that is deceptive advertising. Here is a quote from the FTC guidelines on deceptive advertising:

What makes an advertisement deceptive?
According to the FTC's Deception Policy Statement, an ad is deceptive if it contains a statement - or omits information - that:

* Is likely to mislead consumers acting reasonably under the circumstances; and
* Is "material" - that is, important to a consumer's decision to buy or use the product.

Here is the link: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/ad-faqs.shtm

If consumers are told that certain features are supported and these features are not in fact supported, would that be "'material' - that is, important to a consumer's decision to buy or use the product"?

Would the injury -- financial -- be substantial enough? How substantial is $400 to $1000 or more?

The standard for determining this legally is the standpoint of the "reasonable consumer." The "reasonable consumer" is not expected to read AVS and other sites. If a product will not perform as advertised, specific disclaimers and warning labels must be included. Absent these, a consumer is likely to be steered toward the product without all the information he needs to make a rational decision.

Many of the BD supporters on this forum are informed and they don't care. It is the uninformed who may very well care, since they will have been denied the information they need to make a reasonable buying decision. They should be the ones to decide whether it matters or not, after being appropriately informed. Besides if one makes the argument, as Andy Parsons did, that no one will care anyway, what harm would it cause Blu-ray to specifically label its products? The fact that they seem to want to keep this a secret from the general public indicates that they anticipate it will cause a problem.

This omission of pertinent information violates the FTC guideline that states, "an ad is deceptive if it contains a statement - or omits information." It would be wise for the BDA to inform the public about this in advance and to properly indicate this with disclaimers.

BD supporters can't have it both ways: They can't maintain at the same time that Profiles will not matter to consumers AND that warnings should not be issued. Deciding not to inform consumers about unsupported features implies that that information is "material" and would "kill sales."

According to the FTC guidelines, advertisers should not be allowed to decide for consumers what is or is not important or material when it comes to buying a product. For some people, disabling extra features will not be a problem. For others, it will be a problem. But potential consumers need to be informed in order to make a rational decision.

On this forum, many people have learned about the profiles issue and have decided to postpone buying Blu-ray until that issue is resolved. That is a rational decision based upon information garnered from rather sophisticated discussion on a rather "elite" forum. The "reasonable consumer" (call him J6P or whatever) is not expected to have to subscribe to the AVS Forum to find this out.

All BD manufacturers have to do is to put a sticker on their boxes (not inside, where it will be useless for making a decision) that advises consumers that this product will or will not support this or that feature BD products have been claimed to do. For example, the box should make it clear that the player does not have an ethernet port, so that it will not support certain online interactive features that require an ethernet port.

But if you think that this shouldn't be done because it will kill sales, then you are already conceding that this information is material for making the decision to purchase.

Edit to add: BDA should also add a disclaimer to their TV and other advertising that states, "Not all interactive features supported on all Blu-ray players."

If they are having trouble getting it done by Oct. 31, why would they move it forward? Wouldn't they push the date backward, probably into 2008?

Don't you consider it rather "unfair" that so many consumers will be effectively duped into buying 1.0 players because they have not been appropriately informed of this issue?

After all, when they walk into a store and see all the promotional videos talking about all these advanced features, just how are they supposed to know that none of the players on sale next to the displays can actually do it?

Duped?

What about the 1st gen HD DVD owners that still are not getting blacker than black over DVI / HDMI or frequent freezes?

What about he fact that each player has required 6-8 firmware updates and bug fixes?

What about the myriad of XA2 owners who now have lipsync issues with 1080P?

Was that mentioned to those buyers up front??

Have they been duped as well?

The only one duping folks the HD DVD spinsters....

Funny how this thread about BLU RAY is started by a HD DVD fanboy........and with it, attracts all the most vociferous other HD DVD fanboys.. IS this a BD bashing thread started by HD DVD fanboys or what?

Quote "I think it's a little more than just having a second copy of the movie with a steady PIP window. The Bourne Identity for example, allows for an icon to appear when there is secondary content available. The user can choose to activate the PIP window to view the content or ignore the icon and continue to view the movie. Quite a bit more sophisticated than what BD is capable of."

My Matrix DVD has that too I think it's called follow the white rabbit. My recently purchased David Gilmour DVD has that too. Think Blu Ray can't do that?

Same here. I generally don't like in movie stuff. I just want to watch the movie.

I hear this a lot. :D

Quote "I think it's a little more than just having a second copy of the movie with a steady PIP window. The Bourne Identity for example, allows for an icon to appear when there is secondary content available. The user can choose to activate the PIP window to view the content or ignore the icon and continue to view the movie. Quite a bit more sophisticated than what BD is capable of."

My Matrix DVD has that too I think it's called follow the white rabbit. My recently purchased David Gilmour DVD has that too. Think Blu Ray can't do that?

I haven't seen it. Doesn't that white rabbit take you out of the movie while the feature is playing? :D

Duped?

What about the 1st gen HD DVD owners that still are not getting blacker than black over DVI / HDMI or frequent freezes?

What about he fact that each player has required 6-8 firmware updates and bug fixes?

What about the myriad of XA2 owners who now have lipsync issues with 1080P?

Was that mentioned to those buyers up front??

Have they been duped as well?

The only one duping folks the HD DVD spinsters....

Funny how this thread about BLU RAY is started by a HD DVD fanboy........and with it, attracts all the most vociferous other HD DVD fanboys.. IS this a BD bashing thread started by HD DVD fanboys or what?

How many updates has the PS3 had so far?

Yeah...generally the content of threads revelas bias rather than titles. I could create a dozens of threads a day and acrew over 5,000 posts in under a year...but you already did that Lee.

You're just jealous that's all.;)

Duped?

What about the 1st gen HD DVD owners that still are not getting blacker than black over DVI / HDMI or frequent freezes?

What about he fact that each player has required 6-8 firmware updates and bug fixes?

What about the myriad of XA2 owners who now have lipsync issues with 1080P?

Was that mentioned to those buyers up front??

Have they been duped as well?

The only one duping folks the HD DVD spinsters....

Funny how this thread about BLU RAY is started by a HD DVD fanboy........and with it, attracts all the most vociferous other HD DVD fanboys.. IS this a BD bashing thread started by HD DVD fanboys or what?

Toshiba is adding functionality and fixing problems as they appear, even on first gen players. No big deal for early adopters. As opposed to advertising functionality that will never work on players that are announced and shipping.

Toshiba is adding functionality and fixing problems as they appear, even on first gen players. No big deal for early adopters. As opposed to advertising functionality that will never work on players that are announced and shipping.

Indeed, one has to distinguish deceptive advertising from product liability. Actually, Toshiba's frequent firmware updates constitute a good faith effort on the part of Toshiba to remedy design and manufacturing defects.

But trying to fix what is broken is quite different from promising features that are not delivered. BD should have kept all of that online interactive stuff out of their ads until it was close to implementation. Doing otherwise is deceptive.

I am puzzled as to why the BDA would advertise and promise features that Andy Parsons and BD supporters have decided don't matter to consumers.

In fact, it appears to me that Toshiba has leaned in the other direction, to err on the side of caution. We weren't promised True HD 5.1, but we got it anyway.

You mean 5000 posts in 6 mos....most here in this science-less forum.......Lee has to have a record....I am wondering if posting is his profession?

Duped?

What about the 1st gen HD DVD owners that still are not getting blacker than black over DVI / HDMI or frequent freezes?

What about he fact that each player has required 6-8 firmware updates and bug fixes?

What about the myriad of XA2 owners who now have lipsync issues with 1080P?

Was that mentioned to those buyers up front??

Have they been duped as well?

The only one duping folks the HD DVD spinsters....

Funny how this thread about BLU RAY is started by a HD DVD fanboy........and with it, attracts all the most vociferous other HD DVD fanboys.. IS this a BD bashing thread started by HD DVD fanboys or what?

Did HD DVD ever advertise that you would get Blacker Than Black over a DVI connection (or HDMI for that matter)? I don't ever remember seeing that ad, can you link it? I mean why would they advertise that when they didn't fell that DVI was sufficient enough to even put a DVI connector on the player.

Both HD DVD and BD have required several firmware updates. I agree that consumers are not reasonably told enough to realize this is the nature of the beast.

As for lip sync on the XA2, it only effects a very small number of owners, and it is being corrected. I updated my XA2 and have no lip sync issues because my TV doesn't support 1080p24. The latest firmware causes no sync issues with 1080p60 or any of the other resolutions.

Plus, every firmware upgrade comes with a disclaimer that informs of you potential damage an issues with unexpected performance. You agree to this disclaimer before you can install. So they are informing you that something could get screwed up, just not exactly what that something might be.

You mean 5000 posts in 6 mos....most here in this science-less forum.......Lee has to have a record....I am wondering if posting is his profession?

When you have no valid defense, divert and deceive. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtin, I am the great and powerful Oz!"
:rolleyes:

Quote "I think it's a little more than just having a second copy of the movie with a steady PIP window. The Bourne Identity for example, allows for an icon to appear when there is secondary content available. The user can choose to activate the PIP window to view the content or ignore the icon and continue to view the movie. Quite a bit more sophisticated than what BD is capable of."

My Matrix DVD has that too I think it's called follow the white rabbit. My recently purchased David Gilmour DVD has that too. Think Blu Ray can't do that?


Not even close to the same thing. Follow the white rabbit stops the movie and starts playing another track, which is a behind the scenes special feature. When that feature quits playing, it stops and returns you to that point in the movie.

You mean 5000 posts in 6 mos....most here in this science-less forum.......Lee has to have a record....I am wondering if posting is his profession?

Are you jealous also? Also I make it 8 months. Having trouble with math are we? (begining of Feb)

If BD is planning to launch an inexpensive new player (Chinese or other) to compete during the holiday season, they will have to push back the deadline, since I doubt that such a "budget" player could be designed and tested for 1.1 by that time. If Denon needs until next year to work out 1.1, I don't think a Chinese manufacturer will be able to do what Denon hasn't been able to do.

And I think that Blu-ray needs a budget player for the holidays. If the player is cheap enough, consumers may overlook whether it has an ethernet port and the rest. A bargain player will be considered "good enough" perhaps if it just shows the movie.

If BD is planning to launch an inexpensive new player (Chinese or other) to compete during the holiday season, they will have to push back the deadline, since I doubt that such a "budget" player could be designed and tested for 1.1 by that time. If Denon needs until next year to work out 1.1, I don't think a Chinese manufacturer will be able to do what Denon hasn't been able to do.

And I think that Blu-ray needs a budget player for the holidays. If the player is cheap enough, consumers may overlook whether it has an ethernet port and the rest. A bargain player will be considered "good enough" perhaps if it just shows the movie.

IMO - Sony will use the S300 as it's budget player. The question is how low will the price drop from it's current $499 and how much will Sony subsidize it.

IMO - Sony will use the S300 as it's budget player. The question is how low will the price drop from it's current $499 and how much will Sony subsidize it.

Actually, I think that Sony still doesn't get it (about the need for an inexpensive standalone), so I think they will be going back to the PS3 (a $399 stripped-down model) for help. That will have to come out before October 31, I would assume, to avoid the 1.1 requirement. IMHO, Sony hasn't announced a 1.1 firmware upgrade for the PS3 because they are still having problems figuring out how to do this.

The profile issue is definitely the elephant in the living room for BD. You can only ignore it so long as it doesn't step on you.

Frankly, the BDA wouldn't be having these problems if it hadn't promised more in advertising than it could deliver in reality. According to FTC guidelines, specific claims have to be backed up by documented evidence. General hyperbole, such as "beyond high definition" constitute puffery and are not considered deceptive in the strict legal sense, since they do not involve specific functions and are unlikely to fool a reasonable consumer.

I think a class-action suit may have merit for any BD player owner who can't upgrade their 1.0 or 1.1 to 1.2 if at anytime in the past BDA claimed internet activity for the format. They can fake PiP but not a missing port.

Edit: Lee's post in another thread reminded me that they might include a demand for compensation for the inability to play disks designed for another profile.

I think a class-action suit may have merit for any BD player owner who can't upgrade their 1.0 or 1.1 to 1.2 if at anytime in the past BDA claimed internet activity for the format. They can fake PiP but not a missing port.

Someone would have to take a close look at those demo disks and ads and try to sort out what was and was not claimed for all Blu-ray players.

It would indeed be interesting if optional functions were promoted as standard features of all Blu-ray players.

But even if legal action were taken, I am not sure whether anything would be done beyond pulling the ads and paying a token fine.

Edit to add: I think holiday shoppers won't think this way; they will just return the "defective players." It will be interesting to see how customer service handles these returns.

Consumers have limited rights when it comes to pursuing remedies for deceptive advertising. It is usually up to competitors to initiate litigation.

The HD DVD group has wisely avoided any such litigation, since they understand that the elephant in the living room will take care of things by itself in the long run.

Fixed title of thread.

How many updates has the PS3 had so far?

Several, but only a few have had Blu-ray type firmware updates. All the rest were related to the "other uses" of the hardware. "You spin me right round baby right round, like a record baby, right round round round."

Will the 1.1 firmware fix for the PS3 be announced before or after the October 31 deadline? Or will there be any fix forthcoming at all?

I'm not sure whether such an announcement would help or hurt Blu-ray, since it would call attention to the elephant, something that methinks BD would like to avoid until next year.

Will they? Can they? Should they? Why won't they?

This is nothing more than a discussion for flaming Blu-ray by the HD DVD lobbyists.
This thread adds 0 content to this forum, you know it's the The HDTV Software Media Discussion forum. Not the FUD discussion forum.

This discussion has nothing to do with software media but mainly about Blu-ray player capabilities. Shouldn't this be discussed in the Blu-ray player forum ?

Anyway, flame away and I hope you guys with the maroon colored coke bottle glasses don't have egg on your face Nov.1.

Carry on.....

Hey,

I guess I'm in the minority that thinks there doesn't need to be a cheap Blu Ray player.

Blu Ray sales are stronger then HD DVD for nearly a year now and hardware sales of stand alones have taken the lead too.

Looking at big upcoming releases like Cars and Ratatoie (sp?) I think players sales will continue to grow at current prices which I think represent a fair value.

If HD DVD players come down in price that's simply because they don't sell at the current price or don't sell well enough. It's simply a reflection of the actual value of the product.

-Brian

WebPhilo,

Current player don't have to be upgraded by the deadline from what I've read it's just new players can't be introduced without the new features. This also speaks to concerns that a budget player wouldn't be introduced with the new specs because existing players could simply be marked down though I think that is not likely.

-Brian

Blu Ray sales are stronger then HD DVD for nearly a year now and hardware sales of stand alones have taken the lead too.




Not True. It took the lead for a few weeks then got over taken by HD DVD again when Amazon was doing the 7 free disc deal.

Did I read that now you can get 9 free discs with purchase of a player.

Combine that with the $249 player and you get a sense of what the player represents in terms of "worth." An accurate sense if you ask me.

No one wants to be left with stock of HD DVD after this holiday season is the message I get from it.

-Brian

WebPhilo,

Current player don't have to be upgraded by the deadline from what I've read it's just new players can't be introduced without the new features. This also speaks to concerns that a budget player wouldn't be introduced with the new specs because existing players could simply be marked down though I think that is not likely.

-Brian

Thanks. I assume that even a new version of the PS3 would still be considered a PS3 and would therefore be grandfathered even if it came to market after October 31.

It will probably mean that no new BD players will launch between November 1 and sometime in 2008.

I do think there will be markdowns of existing players, but these won't be huge discounts.

I still think disclaimers in ads and on boxes would help Blu-ray. Many consumers don't read the fine print anyway, and such disclaimers would give customer service some recourse to deny returns.

I should add that the first generation Sony and Pioneer units didn't play CD's, and neither company tried to hide that fact. Customers have to know what they are getting, within reasonable bounds.

People might not be happy, but it would be honest.

Did I read that now you can get 9 free discs with purchase of a player.

Combine that with the $249 player and you get a sense of what the player represents in terms of "worth." An accurate sense if you ask me.

No one wants to be left with stock of HD DVD after this holiday season is the message I get from it.

-Brian

Sometimes you get more than you pay for, and sometimes you get less. There is no exact equivalence between money spent and value received.

Your argument is based upon the false assumption that you always get what you pay for, more or less.

The A2, by anyone's reckoning, is an amazing value or bang for the buck. My old Panasonic XP50 cost more than that, and it didn't have HD DVD or even "upscaling."

These "worthless" A2 players will give people satisfaction for years to come, no matter how the format "war" turns out.

It will be very telling when the Venturer and other bargain dimestore HD DVD players deliver the equivalent of BD Live.

How much is interactive functionality worth to consumers? Time will tell.

Edit to add: Warner, among others, is betting that interactive functionality does indeed matter. That makes me think that the BDA can't postpone the deadline: That would send a bad message to Warner and other studios.

You mean 5000 posts in 6 mos....most here in this science-less forum.......Lee has to have a record....I am wondering if posting is his profession?


I don't mind LEE's posting record. I have yet to read anything stupid or frar fetched from him. He does NOT have alot of bias non factual post as you do. LEE is either imformative or aruging the facts to get logical answers. I for one am glad ppl like Lee, Bob Black, Rjam, Art are here there honesty and experience is what AVS is supposed to be for, not the bias, FUD or plain out hatered comments that appear here today.

The simple fact is the BDA is basically lying to ppl not telling them the truth about the players. The boxes should be labled 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 so that the buying public can make a choice which players they want to purchase based on the merits of players. You have to rember it's not about just about us anymore we have already spoken on our format of choice, next is the 30 milloin other HDTV buyers who will be buying next gen players. I for one think this BD profile thing should be brought to light, so that NO ONE feels like they have been taken advantage of.

I'm also the type who tends to watch JUST the movie, but for those films that I really enjoy I go back and look through all the extra features.

To me, this deadline is only good for those who want to utilize the extra features but there will be a small backlash if the deadline is extended and/or players are not upgradeable. Why? Simple. How many of us like having something just because it has it? Even if we don't use it at all, people will complain (albeit slightly) that their players can't use the whole disk. People will complain they are missing out even if they don't know what the disk has. And ironically, most of these people will have their BD players (mainly PS3s) hooked up to an SD TV :p

Did I read that now you can get 9 free discs with purchase of a player.

Combine that with the $249 player and you get a sense of what the player represents in terms of "worth." An accurate sense if you ask me.

No one wants to be left with stock of HD DVD after this holiday season is the message I get from it.

-Brian

Yet Sony themselves is giving away 5 free movies with Any Blu-ray purchase. Panasonic's player comes with 5 additional free in the box, and the B300, depending where you buy it, comes with 1 or 2 movies. Rumor is Sony will be also adding Spider-Man 3 to a new PS3 bundle. You're nuts if you think Best Buy is 'worried' about having a stack of $250 HD DVD players. I wonder how many of them have PALLETS of PS3 systems still in the back.

Did I read that now you can get 9 free discs with purchase of a player.

Combine that with the $249 player and you get a sense of what the player represents in terms of "worth." An accurate sense if you ask me.

No one wants to be left with stock of HD DVD after this holiday season is the message I get from it.

-Brian

Is that why Blu-ray had to take a page out of HD DVD's handbook and start giving away free movies with players?

Is that why Blu-ray had to take a page out of HD DVD's handbook and start giving away free movies with players?

Shhhhhh . . . don't bring this up - it destroys the image that BD is the better format that the consumer will want.;)

BD won't change the date. Clear Indication? As Ottscay says, Look at Samsung and their 2400 that was cancelled.

IMO - Sony will use the S300 as it's budget player. The question is how low will the price drop from it's current $499 and how much will Sony subsidize it.
Probably not anymore than Toshiba subsidizes they're Players, its been said both players coast about the same to produce depending on the chipset used.

[QUOTE=hd nOOb;11788949]I don't mind LEE's posting record. I have yet to read anything stupid or frar fetched from him. He does NOT have alot of bias non factual post as you do. LEE is either imformative or aruging the facts to get logical answers. I for one am glad ppl like Lee, Bob Black, Rjam, Art are here there honesty and experience is what AVS is supposed to be for, not the bias, FUD or plain out hatered comments that appear here today.

The simple fact is the BDA is basically lying to ppl not telling them the truth about the players. The boxes should be labled 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 so that the buying public can make a choice which players they want to purchase based on the merits of players. You have to rember it's not about just about us anymore we have already spoken on our format of choice, next is the 30 milloin other HDTV buyers who will be buying next gen players. I for one think this BD profile thing should be brought to light, so that NO ONE feels like they have been taken advantage of.[/Q
Lee is like a HD DVD ROCK STAR he got his own fan club starting heres the president.

Is that why Blu-ray had to take a page out of HD DVD's handbook and start giving away free movies with players?

Well you can't give away the "Players" and the "Movies" and still turn a profit now can you?

[QUOTE=hd nOOb;11788949]I don't mind LEE's posting record. I have yet to read anything stupid or frar fetched from him. He does NOT have alot of bias non factual post as you do. LEE is either imformative or aruging the facts to get logical answers. I for one am glad ppl like Lee, Bob Black, Rjam, Art are here there honesty and experience is what AVS is supposed to be for, not the bias, FUD or plain out hatered comments that appear here today.

The simple fact is the BDA is basically lying to ppl not telling them the truth about the players. The boxes should be labled 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 so that the buying public can make a choice which players they want to purchase based on the merits of players. You have to rember it's not about just about us anymore we have already spoken on our format of choice, next is the 30 milloin other HDTV buyers who will be buying next gen players. I for one think this BD profile thing should be brought to light, so that NO ONE feels like they have been taken advantage of.[/Q
Lee is like a HD DVD ROCK STAR he got his own fan club starting heres the president.


Sir - you flatter me - and I appreciate it VERY much - thank you.

Well you can't give away the "Players" and the "Movies" and still turn a profit now can you?

Guess not . . .how many billions has Sony lost so far?

PS - Toshiba doesn't make or sell HD DVD's - just a point of fact.

Guess not . . .how many billions has Sony lost so far?

PS - Toshiba doesn't make or sell HD DVD's - just a point of fact.

Does Toshiba press discs? I don't know if they do and I doubt Sony has lost much on Blu Ray as a whole now if you want to say yeah they lost 2 bil on PS3 that is highly likely but the video game industry is now bigger than movies so it is worth some loss to win the video game market again and if you can win the hdm market as well they will be sitting on a stack of money that will make 2 billion or so look small in comparison.

Does Toshiba press discs?

No they do not. They are the major patent holder on HD DVD with NEC. They manufacturer the players. And they manufacturer the drives in HD DVD players.

Will The BDA Extend The 10/31/07 Deadline?
http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/di...C803 B6D481AA

Yes, pretty much their forte at this point: Make bold statements and predictions, and not live up to them. ;)

November 6th release "Cars", from Disney.
Exculsive to the Blu-ray edition are a number of features including Cine-Explore "For the Ultimate Interactive, Behind the Scenes Experience," Carfinder Imersive Game, etc.

I'm sorry, but if all the players out there can't do this, it will disapoint the kiddies, which makes the parents Mad.

I would not want to work behind the Customer Service Counter at Target or Best Buy and hear; "I just bought this player a month ago and now you are telling me I need a new and more expensive one already?"

November 6th release "Cars", from Disney.
Exculsive to the Blu-ray edition are a number of features including Cine-Explore "For the Ultimate Interactive, Behind the Scenes Experience," Carfinder Imersive Game, etc.

I'm sorry, but if all the players out there can't do this, it will disapoint the kiddies, which makes the parents Mad.

I would not want to work behind the Customer Service Counter at Target or Best Buy and hear; "I just bought this player a month ago and now you are telling me I need a new and more expensive one already?"

Cars is not a 1.1 title. It is being done with BD-J somehow. Same will go for the Fox titles that are coming out this Q4.

Here are the monikers they are using (Fox):

BD-Java Enhanced*
D-Box Enhanced

*Disney also uses this (Cars)

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1084/dayaftertomorrow.html

I just love this obsession HD-DVD people have with BRD 1.1.
Ever notice the total lack of concern from the BRD side?
PiP? Ya gotta be jokin.

I seem to recall a similar argument with Beta vs. VHS. 6 hr tapes? Ya gotta be jokin.

When Blu-ray players and movies with full interactivity arrive most people will be very, very impressed with the sheer entertainment value the medium provides. The Blu-ray developers and visionaries know where this could go and are passionate about it.

The risk is the execution: Blu-ray really needs to get into the interactive game before the world swings heavily into something else -- like HD DVD, which is beginning to deliver some of this stuff today and may end up doing it very well, and frequently, before Blu-ray can effectively some to market.

For the balance of 2007, HD DVD is the place to really experience the "extras". However I am definitely interested to see what Disney, for example, has up its sleeve (and perhaps its even doable on HD DVD some day).

If BD is planning to launch an inexpensive new player (Chinese or other) to compete during the holiday season, they will have to push back the deadline.

There are still four weeks for an entry level BD 1.0 spec player to be announced and still meet the deadline. But it doesn't leave a heck of a lot of time to get them into stores, past the cash registers, and into homes for the end of 2007. The reality is there will be no new BD players at, say, $249 in 2007 from China or anywhere else. But an existing model -- Sony's BDP-S300 for example -- could be drastically repriced. If Sony can handle the inventory, I am sure Target would be delighted to sell the player exclusively at $299 if they still keep decent margins.

Well here we are - 10/29 - 2 days away from the Profile 1.1 deadline and no announcement from the BDA moving it. So I will assume they are serious about it this time.

Andy Parsons Says no . . .

“All players after Oct. 31 must comply with that (1.1 profile). That’s not going to change.” And for picture-in-picture features, a workaround is possible without a second video recorder, due to the larger capacity of Blu-ray, Gregorich noted: two copies of the same film can be included on one BD-50, one where the secondary picture is burned into the film, the second including only the standard film.

http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/di...C803 B6D481AA


So let me get this straight.. for them to do a PiP they will store 2 versions of the movie on the and basically make the discs less in capacity then HD DVD. Wow, what a smart and logical thing to do. NOT!

This has nothing to do with the deadline but how many "officially" announced profile 1.1 players are there now? Has there even been an official confirmation that the PS3 is 1.1 compliant?

So let me get this straight.. for them to do a PiP they will store 2 versions of the movie on the and basically make the discs less in capacity then HD DVD. Wow, what a smart and logical thing to do. NOT!


Yep - all the fake PIP BD titles are 25 GB each. Does that remove the "more storage" talking point?:rolleyes:

So does this allow a real comparison? . . . . BD versus HD DVD . . . and use T3 as the comparitor. 25GB versus 30GB. Compare the two images without the PIP.

Then kick in the PIP on the HD DVD and show the burned in PIP from the BD to see if anything changes.

So let me get this straight.. for them to do a PiP they will store 2 versions of the movie on the and basically make the discs less in capacity then HD DVD. Wow, what a smart and logical thing to do. NOT!

Yes, clearly thats the advantage of Blu-ray.

As for the Profile 1.1 deadline..Warner seems to be moving on and releasing hack jobs of their HD DVD exclusives just so they will work on the 500k stand alones vs. 4 million PS3s. Guess that shows Warner cares about stand alones...

This has nothing to do with the deadline but how many "officially" announced profile 1.1 players are there now? Has there even been an official confirmation that the PS3 is 1.1 compliant?

Samsung Dual Player....but the Profile 1.1 update won't be until January.
I bet its been delayed another 3 months.

I voted no but think every poll needs an "I dont care" option.

Why does it matter if they extend the deadline? No one is making the 1.1 players anyway. Why bother. Besides BR people don't need PIP and internet connections anyway. Sorry, 2.0 is not required till when, again?

It would appear the 10.31 date will stick, but I don't ever recall there being a set date before (though, going through posts, there was).

Personally, I will be very thankful once it's official, so the anti-BR folk may find a new topic to dwell on...perhaps 2.0

I am hoping Sony sort just forgets 1.1 and 2.0...........maybe they'll worry about that stuff after the format war

Yep - all the fake PIP BD titles are 25 GB each. Does that remove the "more storage" talking point?:rolleyes:

So does this allow a real comparison? . . . . BD versus HD DVD . . . and use T3 as the comparitor. 25GB versus 30GB. Compare the two images without the PIP.

Then kick in the PIP on the HD DVD and show the burned in PIP from the BD to see if anything changes.

So Lee I suppose you think they just shouldnt do it at all, because it is "fake"?

I am sure someone watching PiP in T3 will be thinking, "I wonder if this PiP is fake."

Then again maybe not.

Why does it matter if they extend the deadline? No one is making the 1.1 players anyway. Why bother. Besides BR people don't need PIP and internet connections anyway. Sorry, 2.0 is not required till when, again?

I agree, leave PiP and put money into something useful like paying WB.

If they really want PiP, just burn another copy of the movie onto the disc with it.

I am hoping Sony sort just forgets 1.1 and 2.0...........maybe they'll worry about that stuff after the format war

+1

It would appear the 10.31 date will stick, but I don't ever recall there being a set date before (though, going through posts, there was).

Personally, I will be very thankful once it's official, so the anti-BR folk may find a new topic to dwell on...perhaps 2.0


The original date was 7/31/07 and was moved to 10/31/07.

Why does it matter if they extend the deadline? No one is making the 1.1 players anyway. Why bother. Besides BR people don't need PIP and internet connections anyway. Sorry, 2.0 is not required till when, again?

BR people don't need them?
You mean BR people don't want to even have some of the possibilities that HD DVD already is? Thats a new one.

I wonder which players will even play the fake PIP on T3? Care to make a guess and then we can check back with if it's actually released.

I wonder which players will even play the fake PIP on T3? Care to make a guess and then we can check back with if it's actually released.

All they have to do is to be able to play the movie to play the fake PiP. Most will probably be able to do that. ;)

It didn't work that way when they did on "The Descent".

BR people don't need them?
You mean BR people don't want to even have some of the possibilities that HD DVD already is? Thats a new one.

Do you mean like higher capacity?

HD DVD doesnt need that either though right? ummm, 51g discs anyone?

All these terds on both sides are concerned about is doing what the other one does.

Everything else be damned as long as we can do what the other side does!!

It is like 2 little boys fighting for the coolest bike.

It didn't work that way when they did on "The Descent".

My bad, which BR players cant play "The Descent"?

Nope, I could care less if these interactive things and PIP ever make it. Sure add them in years down the road but just worry about making stable players and giving us as many films as possible.

Do you mean like higher capacity?

HD DVD doesnt need that either though right? ummm, 51g discs anyone?

All these terds on both sides are concerned about is doing what the other one does.

Everything else be damned as long as we can do what the other side does!!

It is like 2 little boys fighting for the coolest bike.

Exactly.

Most of the people that care about what a format is lacking, are the ones on the opposing team.

Obviously, the 1.1 and 2.0 profiles not yet being official, haven't slowed down BR movie or player sales. The majority of time it comes up for discussion, is when an HD DVD supporter is trying to use it as ammo against BR.

Do you mean like higher capacity?

HD DVD doesnt need that either though right? ummm, 51g discs anyone?

All these terds on both sides are concerned about is doing what the other one does.

Everything else be damned as long as we can do what the other side does!!

It is like 2 little boys fighting for the coolest bike.

So far, 30GB have been just fine, or have you not seen Hot Fuzz, King Kong, Transformers?

So far, Warner has to spend extra cash to get 50GB discs to fake PiP due to Blu-ray not being up to snuff.

Why does it matter if they extend the deadline? No one is making the 1.1 players anyway. Why bother. Besides BR people don't need PIP and internet connections anyway. Sorry, 2.0 is not required till when, again?

2.0 is never required; always optional.

Exactly.

The only people that care about what a format is lacking, are the ones on the opposing team.

Obviously, the 1.1 and 2.0 profiles not yet being official, haven't slowed down BR movie or player sales. The majority of time it comes up for discussion, is when an HD DVD supporter is trying to use it as ammo against BR.

Wrong. I imagine many people, including my self, would prefer a stand alone player vs. PS3, but since it won't be able to handle Profile 1.1/2.0, we had to pass.

Here is a list of the new BD players that have been announced at/since the IFA first week of Sept:

1. LG DF BH200 - rumored to be both 1.1 and 2.0 compliant

2. Sam. 5000 DF player - now delayed to late December with the 1.1 FM UP to happen; "In 2008."

3. Daewoo - 1.1and 2.0 compliant - MIA

4. Lowrery - No details at all - MIA

5. Phillips 7000 - profile 1.0 - released the week of IFA

6. Pioneer 95HD - profile 1.0

7. Sony S500 - streeted today - profile 1.0

8. Sony ES2000 . . ?

9. Denon - delayed till? Said profile 1.1 and nothing about 2.0

10. Sony PS3 40GB - released already in UK - profile 1.0 with statement that it will be upgradeable as all PS3's are supposed to be.

11. New Pioneer - to be introduced at CES2008 - will be 1.1 compliant - 2.0 - ?

12. New Panasonic - to be introduced at CES 2008 (?) and will be 1.1 and maybe 2.0 compliant.

Did I miss any?

Please help fill in the ? where I am missing info.

I agree, leave PiP and put money into something useful like paying WB.

If they really want PiP, just burn another copy of the movie onto the disc with it.

"fake" PiP is nothing like the real thing. For one, it can't be simply turned on/off.

That said, once you incorporate fake "pip", then the advantage of Blu-ray having more space and bandwidth goes right out the window. Poof.

You just resigned yourself to 25GB max capacity for the film ... how is that better than 30GB ? :confused:

Those 3 films are exactly the problem....no room for lossless tracks as HD DVD is already tapped for space.

So far, 30GB have been just fine, or have you not seen Hot Fuzz, King Kong, Transformers?

So far, Warner has to spend extra cash to get 50GB discs to fake PiP due to Blu-ray not being up to snuff.

/yawn

Spend more money? Link please?

"fake" PiP is nothing like the real thing. For one, it can't be simply turned on/off.

That said, once you incorporate fake "pip", then the advantage of Blu-ray having more space and bandwidth goes right out the window. Poof.

You just resigned yourself to 25GB max capacity for the film ... how is that better than 30GB ? :confused:

Yeah there is a HUGE difference. They are NOTHING alike, the difference is one can be turned off and the other can't seems they are NOTHING alike..... ;)

I couldnt care less for PiP at all, how did I resign myself to anything?


OH yeah, so the capacity goes "poof" what does it do for the PiP advantage? doesnt that "poof" too?

Do you mean like higher capacity?

HD DVD doesnt need that either though right? ummm, 51g discs anyone?


Why do people keep saying that?

How many studios are known to be withholding content on HD DVD because of the lack of 51GB Discs? None.

How many studios are known to be withholding content on Blu-ray because of the lack of Interactivity? Warner at least, and it seems Disney is delaying 1.1 / 2.0 titles into next year.

So you see, the argument isn't really the same. *shrug*

Wrong. I imagine many people, including my self, would prefer a stand alone player vs. PS3, but since it won't be able to handle Profile 1.1/2.0, we had to pass.

Well, that's you...feel free to imagine as well. It still isn't a crippling concern like the HD DVD community like to make it out to be.

Why do people keep saying that?

How many studios are known to be withholding content on HD DVD because of the lack of 51GB Discs? None.

How many studios are known to be withholding content on Blu-ray because of the lack of Interactivity? Warner at least, and it seems Disney is delaying 1.1 / 2.0 titles into next year.

So you see, the argument isn't really the same. *shrug*

Sure it is, isn't one of the reasons Disney went Blu is because of capacity? Isnt that withholding a whole studio? *shrug*

Yeah there is a HUGE difference.

I couldnt care less for PiP at all, how did I resign myself to anything?


OH yeah, so the capacity goes "poof" what does it do for the PiP advantage? doesnt that "poof" too?

Because you said forget Profile 1.1 and 2.0 and if they want PiP, just do the 'fake' version. Once you do the 'fake' version, the max capacity available is 25GB.

Now, if all things were equal, it would 'poof' the PiP advantage. But all things are *not* equal. For example, in fake PiP, you can't turn it on/off whenever you want. You have to stop the movie, go back to the main menu, turn it on, and then fast forward to the point where you wanted to watch it. If you want to turn it back off, you have to stop the movie, go to the main menu, turn it off, and then fast forward back to the part where you were. Not to mention that most of the buttons/options don't work when you're watching the PiP version.

So, it's not the same thing at all. Fake PiP isn't even close to matching the features of what real PiP can do today (and has done for the last 18 months).

Several of the players had to have an update to play it when it came out. I had to update my old Samsung to play it before I sold it.

Why do people keep saying that?

How many studios are known to be withholding content on HD DVD because of the lack of 51GB Discs? None.

How many studios are known to be withholding content on Blu-ray because of the lack of Interactivity? Warner at least, and it seems Disney is delaying 1.1 / 2.0 titles into next year.

So you see, the argument isn't really the same. *shrug*

Good points . . still 20 WB titles that BD has no access to.

And yes Disney will do DS PIP Q2 and IF Q3. Wonder how they feel about the delay? They were part of the HDi group.

And they recently were the only BDA company that voted yes for both the TL Twin and the TL51 at the last DVD Steering Committee meeting:p

Sure it is, isn't one of the reasons Disney went Blu is because of capacity? Isnt that withholding a whole studio? *shrug*

Link to that statement from Disney?

Pretty sure Insider's have said it's not Capacity nor Region Coding nor BD+ keeping Disney exclusive.

Might be the "no comment" incentives. :p

Well, that's you...feel free to imagine as well. It still isn't a crippling concern like the HD DVD community like to make it out to be.

It is. So many obsolete Blu-ray players available.

Here is a list of the new BD players that have been announced at/since the IFA first week of Sept:

1. LG DF BH200 - rumored to be both 1.1 and 2.0 compliant

2. Sam. 5000 DF player - now delayed to late December with the 1.1 FM UP to happen; "In 2008."

3. Daewoo - 1.1and 2.0 compliant - MIA

4. Lowrery - No details at all - MIA

5. Phillips 7000 - profile 1.0 - released the week of IFA

6. Pioneer 95HD - profile 1.0

7. Sony S500 - streeted today - profile 1.0

8. Sony ES2000 . . ?

9. Denon - delayed till? Said profile 1.1 and nothing about 2.0

10. Sony PS3 40GB - released already in UK - profile 1.0 with statement that it will be upgradeable as all PS3's are supposed to be.

11. New Pioneer - to be introduced at CES2008 - will be 1.1 compliant - 2.0 - ?

12. New Panasonic - to be introduced at CES 2008 (?) and will be 1.1 and maybe 2.0 compliant.

Did I miss any?

Please help fill in the ? where I am missing info.

The ES2000 is Profile 1.0 only.

Sure it is, isn't one of the reasons Disney went Blu is because of capacity? Isnt that withholding a whole studio? *shrug*

No the money coming from Sony to subsidize disc replication and Panasonic paid Disney Tours is what keeps Disney glued to Blu-Ray, not 50gb limit that will most likely by January be non-existant as well.

I know. The 100 gb disc is just about ready.

I voted no but think every poll needs an "I dont care" option.

If you "don't care" then why did you vote?

The ES2000 is Profile 1.0 only.

When did that street? Not that I really care - $1200 for a better bracing bar is what Engadet called it.:p

Link to that statement from Disney?

Pretty sure Insider's have said it's not Capacity nor Region Coding nor BD+ keeping Disney exclusive.

Might be the "no comment" incentives. :p

It has been spoken of ad nauseum here, find the link yourself. HD DVDers say that is the reason 51g is coming.

As much as you don't want it as an above poster said:

More HD DVDers care about PiP on BR than BRers do.

More BRers care about capacity than HD DVDers do.

It is a lame pissing match that is about 12 months too old.

I know. The 100 gb disc is just about ready.

I Wonder how the yields are...hmmm.. like 5%? or am I being too optimistic?

It is. So many obsolete Blu-ray players available.

Yet even though this has been a widely known issue for a long time, player sales didn't come to a halt. Why is that?

People, I don't care if your a die-hard HD DVD supporter...this is Picture in Picture we're talking about. And mind you, not if it's possible (which it is currently), but how it's possible.

The HD DVD community has this thing about calling out every minor fault of BR. In the beginning, it was lack of HD audio codecs in the players and there not being 50 GB discs on the market. Fast forward and both of those issue have been solved. All while, player sales have been strong and movie sales outselling HD DVD.

Like the ole' saying, don't worry about what BR is doing, worry about your side (HD DVD).

No the money coming from Sony to subsidize disc replication and Panasonic paid Disney Tours is what keeps Disney glued to Blu-Ray, not 50gb limit that will most likely by January be non-existant as well.

Woohoo, then Disney is well on their way to neutrality and you will be right.

The good thing is we only have 2 months to wait and see!

It doesn't matter....at least its not PIP / internet connections they're working on!!!:D

Those 3 films are exactly the problem....no room for lossless tracks as HD DVD is already tapped for space.

Right ... :rolleyes:

Here's the crux of that argument though:

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the AVS/Audiophiles of the world which are a tiny tiny tiny minority and include lossless that only a small fraction of people can hear if they have the gear.

... or ...

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the mass consumer that wants to see double-digit 'extras' listed on the packaging to make them feel like they're getting more value for their dollar?

I'm going with the latter ... not to mention it's pretty clear that if they wanted to put a TrueHD track on Transformers they could have likely made it fit. Paramount has always been into DD+, even on Blu-ray.

And, like I said, fake pip maxes you at 25GB which is less than HD30. How are you going to get lossless on 25GB if according to you it doesnt fit on 30GB? :confused:

Good points . . still 20 WB titles that BD has no access to.

And yes Disney will do DS PIP Q2 and IF Q3. Wonder how they feel about the delay? They were part of the HDi group.

And they recently were the only BDA company that voted yes for both the TL Twin and the TL51 at the last DVD Steering Committee meeting:p

And you can be proven right also, in a little over 2 months!

THe best part of the BD players being obsolete is the genral public has no idea!!!!

Right ... :rolleyes:

Here's the crux of that argument though:

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the AVS/Audiophiles of the world which are a tiny tiny tiny minority and include lossless that only a small fraction of people can hear if they have the gear.

... or ...

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the mass consumer that wants to see double-digit 'extras' listed on the packaging to make them feel like they're getting more value for their dollar?

I'm going with the latter ... not to mention it's pretty clear that if they wanted to put a TrueHD track on Transformers they could have likely made it fit. Paramount has always been into DD+, even on Blu-ray.

And, like I said, fake pip maxes you at 25GB which is less than HD30. How are you going to get lossless on 25GB if according to you it doesnt fit on 30GB? :confused:

PiP is PiP to those "mass consumer" you speak of. I know it will be a massive chore to start the movie over for them though..........

It has been spoken of ad nauseum here, find the link yourself. HD DVDers say that is the reason 51g is coming.

As much as you don't want it as an above poster said:

More HD DVDers care about PiP on BR than BRers do.

More BRers care about capacity than HD DVDers do.

It is a lame pissing match that is about 12 months too old.

How can you care about something you don't have access to? Other than to be mad that it was promised - but not yet delivered.

Oh well - don't be concerned. We ARE dealing with Hollywood Studios. And we KNOW how much they LOVE to double dip their customers.

Somewhere in CA there is a movie exec laughing as hard as he can - ROTF because he was part of having both Dirty Dancing and T2 released on DVD about 10 different times.:rolleyes:

THe best part of the BD players being obsolete is the genral public has no idea!!!!

+1

But rabid HD DVD fanboys will tell you that there will law suits and massive upheaval from consumer when they find out!!! :D

Right ... :rolleyes:

Here's the crux of that argument though:

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the AVS/Audiophiles of the world which are a tiny tiny tiny minority and include lossless that only a small fraction of people can hear if they have the gear.

... or ...

Do you think Studio's would rather cater to the mass consumer that wants to see double-digit 'extras' listed on the packaging to make them feel like they're getting more value for their dollar?

I'm going with the latter ... not to mention it's pretty clear that if they wanted to put a TrueHD track on Transformers they could have likely made it fit. Paramount has always been into DD+, even on Blu-ray.

And, like I said, fake pip maxes you at 25GB which is less than HD30. How are you going to get lossless on 25GB if according to you it doesnt fit on 30GB? :confused:

That's the problem. HD DVD in trying to make the replication cheap and making the players cheap has run out of room.....just 2 years into the war..they are out of space.

Glad you HD DVD folks can't appreciate an audiophile track...cus you won't get it...I am sure when Toshiba reads these forums they probably think they could lower the output res to 720P (instead of 1080P) and a simple DD track just so they can load the disc with even more garbage. HD DVD users won't even notice as the picture and sound will still be 'good enough'...:D

How can you care about something you don't have access to? Other than to be mad that it was promised - but not yet delivered.

Oh well - don't be concerned. We ARE dealing with Hollywood Studios. And we KNOW how much they LOVE to double dip their customers.

Somewhere in CA there is a movie exec laughing as hard as he can - ROTF because he was part of having both Dirty Dancing and T2 released on DVD about 10 different times.:rolleyes:

Do you honestly think I (or a large portion) would double dip for PiP??

Do you honestly think that I (or a large portion) are "mad" at the BDA for not having 1.1 players yet?

Yet even though this has been a widely known issue for a long time, player sales didn't come to a halt. Why is that?

People, I don't care if your a die-hard HD DVD supporter...this is Picture in Picture we're talking about. And mind you, not if it's possible (which it is currently), but how it's possible.

The HD DVD community has this thing about calling out every minor fault of BR. In the beginning, it was lack of HD audio codecs in the players and there not being 50 GB discs on the market. Fast forward and both of those issue have been solved. All while, player sales have been strong and movie sales outselling HD DVD.

Like the ole' saying, don't worry about what BR is doing, worry about your side (HD DVD).

OK - I will bite - lets play "can you top this?" . . .

$198 A2's at Wal-Mart and CC. A3 for $169 at Sears on BF.

Your turn . . . :p

THe best part of the BD players being obsolete is the genral public has no idea!!!!

Ahh ... so misleading is okay? :rolleyes:

Using that logic: The general public perceives PQ and AQ on HD DVD to be the same as on Blu-ray overall. So why not go with the one that does all the extra stuff too?

After all, general public doesn't care about lossless. ;)

Originally Posted by thebland
You mean 5000 posts in 6 mos....most here in this science-less forum.......Lee has to have a record....I am wondering if posting is his profession?

When you have no valid defense, divert and deceive. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtin, I am the great and powerful Oz!"
:rolleyes:

dang iceman you are cold. hehehehehehe

OK - I will bite - lets play "can you top this?" . . .

$198 A2's at Wal-Mart and CC. A3 for $169 at Sears on BF.

Your turn . . . :p

I honestly don't get it, what am I "topping?"

How did this become about the price of players? Are you just trying to promote a cheap HD DVD player?

PiP is PiP to those "mass consumer" you speak of. I know it will be a massive chore to start the movie over for them though..........

No, it's not the same. You can keep telling yourself it is, but you'd be lying to yourself.

Do you have an HD DVD player with a PiP/IME Title?

Or a Blu-ray Player with a Fake PiP title to test on?

Because you said forget Profile 1.1 and 2.0 and if they want PiP, just do the 'fake' version. Once you do the 'fake' version, the max capacity available is 25GB.

Now, if all things were equal, it would 'poof' the PiP advantage. But all things are *not* equal. For example, in fake PiP, you can't turn it on/off whenever you want. You have to stop the movie, go back to the main menu, turn it on, and then fast forward to the point where you wanted to watch it. If you want to turn it back off, you have to stop the movie, go to the main menu, turn it off, and then fast forward back to the part where you were. Not to mention that most of the buttons/options don't work when you're watching the PiP version.

So, it's not the same thing at all. Fake PiP isn't even close to matching the features of what real PiP can do today (and has done for the last 18 months).

You missed one place where fake PIP is the same as "real" PIP. That's on the disk specs on the back of the the Blu-ray boxes. :p I don't think any of the Blu-ray titles spell out "fake PIP" on the boxes.

I personally object to the use of "fake" PIP. I much prefer the more descriptive "Blu-ray 1.0 PIP" which will be immediately obvious to J6P :D

OK - I will bite - lets play "can you top this?" . . .

$198 A2's at Wal-Mart and CC. A3 for $169 at Sears on BF.

Your turn . . . :p


They will still never sell....HD DVD is an internet phenomenon. Nobody even knows what it is. THe players have been 1/2 the price or more than BD for 2 years but still can't sell more software and BD players keep on selling..

That's the problem. HD DVD in trying to make the replication cheap and making the players cheap has run out of room.....just 2 years into the war..they are out of space.

Glad you HD DVD folks can't appreciate an audiophile track...cus you won't get it...I am sure when Toshiba reads these forums they probably think they could lower the output res to 720P (instead of 1080P) and a simple DD track just so they can load the disc with even more garbage. HD DVD users won't even notice as the picture and sound will still be 'good enough'...:D

And Blu-ray, trying to compete with HD DVD's PiP has maxed their capacity at 25GB, less than HD30. So it's even less than good enough. *shrug*

PIP is like having a bidet in your house...THe wife thought it was a good idea to get it, but no one ever used it.

Do you honestly think that I (or a large portion) are "mad" at the BDA for not having 1.1 players yet?

I don't think a large portion are 'mad' [yet] because they don't know they've been lied to [yet]. ;)

theBland,

Glad you HD DVD folks can't appreciate an audiophile track...cus you won't get it

who said HD DVD supporters dont appreciate an audiophile track?

The point is that the vast majority of people dont - that is why analog, and tube amps, and all the rest are a niche market.

The question is whether the Studios should invest the time and money into something that the overwhelming majority wont appreciate and dont really want, if the popularity of MP3's are any indication.

Furthermore, if lossless is THE gold standard, then why isnt it on ALL BD releases?

PIP is like having a bidet in your house...THe wife thought it was a good idea to get it, but no one ever used it.

the same can be said for lossless. :p

They will still never sell....HD DVD is an internet phenomenon. Nobody even knows what it is. THe players have been 1/2 the price or more than BD for 2 years but still can't sell more software and BD players keep on selling..

No, but it can sell the same amount of software, even in front of the BDA giving away discs to a market with 8x as many players. :)

PIP is like having a bidet in your house...THe wife thought it was a good idea to get it, but no one ever used it.

I nominate this for post of the week.:D

Do you honestly think I (or a large portion) would double dip for PiP??

Do you honestly think that I (or a large portion) are "mad" at the BDA for not having 1.1 players yet?



No, a large portion are PS3 owners living under the assumption that their player is already 1.1/BD Live compatible.

Blah ... look guys, we're not going to convince each other or change each other's minds.

Some of us feel that PiP is unimportant while lossless audio is a key feature.

Some of us feel that lossless audio is nice, but would prefer the space and bandwidth be used by extras and PiP/IME.

Some of us feel that the BDA is misleading people and that's wrong.

Some of us feel that it's okay to mislead them because they don't know what they're missing.

At the end of the day, we're going to keep going round and round these circles and for what? To increase our post counts?

Shouldn't we just get back on topic? We have 2 days to go and it doesn't look like the deadline will get pushed back. I'll be happy when November 1st rolls around and we can just close this thread. :)

theBland,



who said HD DVD supporters dont appreciate an audiophile track?

The point is that the vast majority of people dont - that is why analog, and tube amps, and all the rest are a niche market.

The question is whether the Studios should invest the time and money into something that the overwhelming majority wont appreciate and dont really want, if the popularity of MP3's are any indication.

Furthermore, if lossless is THE gold standard, then why isnt it on ALL BD releases?

THe time and money are no different for lossless vs lossy........and PCM, which is even better, is plain free - no licensing to pay.

This is a new format that is supposed to be the best yet....give us a master track audio and 1080P. Chinsing on disc capacity is just a huge oversight. I still can't believe it. I can't beleive King Kong and Transformers did not get the deluxe treatment with a lossless track. Even the POTC discs got 24 bit LPCM...

THe time and money are no different for lossless vs lossy........and PCM, which is even better, is plain free - no licensing to pay.

This is a new format that is supposed to be the best yet....give us a master track audio and 1080P. Chinsing on disc capacity is just a huge oversight. I still can't believe it. I can't beleive King Kong and Transformers did not get the deluxe treatment with a lossless track. Even the POTC discs got 24 bit LPCM...

It's not free; if it was free, all Blu-ray discs would have a PCM track. They do not, barely half do. So there's obviously a cost to it. :)

Again, can we get back On Topic please?

No, but it can sell the same amount of software, even in front of the BDA giving away discs to a market with 8x as many players. :)

So an almost billion dollar summer blockbuster against some catalogs and a concert(which kicked ass:D) and you expected anything different?:rolleyes:

Here's what I don't get about the, general public will be upset once they find out...

For starters, Average Joe isn't shelling out $500 for a BR machine. The vast majority of people buying these HD players, are people that on some level, are "tech-ies."

Ok, so are we to assume that this crowd is dropping $500 on machine without doing some research? The lack of hardware PiP processing in BR machines has been known and well documented for a very long time. This isn't something someone just figured out last Tuesday.

But fine, so someone does just drop $500 on impulse. If one is able to drop $500 at a drop of a dime, he or she probably has plenty of money to burn. i.e. You see it, you want it. They aren't concern about the minor details, because money isn't an issue.

Not good enough, cool. I will give the best case scenario for HD DVD supporters. Guy A drops $500+ on a BR player, only to find out months down the road he isn't able to do "interactive PiP" on his specific player. Are we to believe, that he going to say screw it to all the money he has invested in BR movies (some which are exclusive) and go out and buy an HD DVD player? Or wouldn't it be a safer bet that he just gets a new BR player that is able to play the PiP if he cares so much?

I nominate this for post of the week.:D


:D

Totally true....

/thread

I honestly don't get it, what am I "topping?"

How did this become about the price of players? Are you just trying to promote a cheap HD DVD player?

Well you kept telling me things that BD set out to do . . .and did.

HD DVD has accomplished the same thing. Goal was to get a truly affordable HD movie player out for Q4 . . . here they are!

THe time and money are no different for lossless vs lossy........and PCM, which is even better, is plain free - no licensing to pay.

This is a new format that is supposed to be the best yet....give us a master track audio and 1080P. Chinsing on disc capacity is just a huge oversight. I still can't believe it. I can't beleive King Kong and Transformers did not get the deluxe treatment with a lossless track. Even the POTC discs got 24 bit LPCM...


Lossless is already confirmed for blu-ray and has nothing to do with profile 1.1. Nice derail anyway, mission accomplished.:rolleyes:

Here's what I don't get about the, general public will be upset once they find out...

For starters, Average Joe isn't shelling out $500 for a BR machine. The vast majority of people buying these HD players, are people that on some level, are "tech-ies."

Ok, so are we to assume that this crowd is dropping $500 on machine without doing some research? The lack of hardware PiP processing in BR machines has been known and well documented for a very long time. This isn't something someone just figured out last Tuesday.

But fine, so someone does just drop $500 on impulse. If one is able to drop $500 at a drop of a dime, he or she probably has plenty of money to burn. i.e. You see it, you want it. They aren't concern about the minor details, because money isn't an issue.

Not good enough, cool. I will give the best case scenario for HD DVD supporters. Guy A drops $500+ on a BR player, only to find out months down the road he isn't able to do "interactive PiP" on his specific player. Are we to believe, that he going to say screw it to all the money he has invested in BR movies (some which are exclusive) and go out and buy an HD DVD player? Or wouldn't it be a safer bet that he just gets a new BR player that is able to play the PiP if he cares so much?

No, but what will happen is that he will go, buy a $150 standalone HD DVD player that does everything AND more that his Blu-Ray player does and is actaully very simple unlike using a gaming console and he will start watching more and more HD DVD movies as even more content becomes available, plain and simple. After a while his Blu-Ray player will start catching dust and he will eventually either give it to someone or sell it or yes throw it away just like they did with Betamax.

This is how most people will do it who were caught into whole misleading BDA marketing spin.

Well you kept telling me things that BD set out to do . . .and did.

HD DVD has accomplished the same thing. Goal was to get a truly affordable HD movie player out for Q4 . . . here they are!

My point wasn't about what format did what. My point being that some in the HD DVD community seem to focus on minor faults of BR that hasn't affected much and are solved in a fairly prompt manner.

Furthermore, good for the HD DVD camp getting a $200 machine on the market. It goes back to my point, worry about what "your side" is doing if you want. Obviously, BR is doing something right considering its lead.

Here's what I don't get about the, general public will be upset once they find out...

For starters, Average Joe isn't shelling out $500 for a BR machine. The vast majority of people buying these HD players, are people that on some level, are "tech-ies."

Ok, so are we to assume that this crowd is dropping $500 on machine without doing some research? The lack of hardware PiP processing in BR machines has been known and well documented for a very long time. This isn't something someone just figured out last Tuesday.

But fine, so someone does just drop $500 on impulse. If one is able to drop $500 at a drop of a dime, he or she probably has plenty of money to burn. i.e. You see it, you want it. They aren't concern about the minor details, because money isn't an issue.

Not good enough, cool. I will give the best case scenario for HD DVD supporters. Guy A drops $500+ on a BR player, only to find out months down the road he isn't able to do "interactive PiP" on his specific player. Are we to believe, that he going to say screw it to all the money he has invested in BR movies (some which are exclusive) and go out and buy an HD DVD player? Or wouldn't it be a safer bet that he just gets a new BR player that is able to play the PiP if he cares so much?


So the reward for the CEM's screwing their customer, because the profile issue has never come out in "big public" like the NYT or the WSJ, nor is there ANY disclaimer on the box that the public can clearly see. . . is to get another sale for another player?

A word comes to mind to describe this customer . . PATSY.

My point wasn't about what format did what. My point being that some in the HD DVD community seem to focus on minor faults of BR that hasn't affected much and are solved in a fairly prompt manner.

Furthermore, good for the HD DVD camp getting a $200 machine on the market. It goes back to my point, worry about what "your side" is doing if you want. Obviously, BR is doing something right considering its lead.

Yes - Sony decided to broach two markets at the same time with the same product . . the PS3. So far it has cost them BILLIONS. But they can claim that they are leading in the format war . . .

Pssst - look at my signature.;)

No, but what will happen is that he will go, buy a $150 standalone HD DVD player that does everything AND more that his Blu-Ray player does and is actaully very simple unlike using a gaming console and he will start watching more and more HD DVD movies as even more content becomes available, plain and simple. After a while his Blu-Ray player will start catching dust and he will eventually either give it to someone or sell it or yes throw it away just like they did with Betamax.

This is how most people do it who were caught into whole misleading BDA marketing spin.

Considering there isn't an official MSRP $150 HD DVD player on the market now, I have to assume your posting in relation into the future. That being said, there could be a $150 standalone BR player at the time for all we know.

But you would still be using the logic that Guy A is going to be so upset over "interactive PiP" he is going to say screw it to his $500-700+ (movies, player, etc) investment and start all over with a new format which might not have the movies he had in his BR collection. And again, this being the future, he is going to choose to shell out $150 for a new player on a new format, as opposed to maybe $200 for a better BR player...

Further still, he is so upset over this particular feature, yet he didn't bother looking into before he dropped the big bucks. Not seeing it.

They will still never sell....HD DVD is an internet phenomenon. Nobody even knows what it is. THe players have been 1/2 the price or more than BD for 2 years but still can't sell more software and BD players keep on selling..

??? I seem to remember some embarrassingly large figure on how many PS3 owner didn't know they had a Blu-ray player and didn't know what that meant.

Right now BD is enjoying is a PS3 lead, but that has a freshness date too. Even with the mammoth lead in BD players, BD does not ebjoy a proportionately mammoth lead in software sales, nor has it taken BD (and HDM) in to the realm of critical mass. All it's gained is the pissing-right to be the bigger flea on the dog, and that's along way from being a viable format.

The truth is that were going to find out that for HDM to work, it needs, content, price, consumer confidence, consumer awareness, and most of all, someones actually got to want HDM once they know what it is.

As it stands now both formats are floating in a limbo of only offering half of what is required to lift them out of the well.

So the reward for the CEM's screwing their customer, because the profile issue has never come out in "big public" like the NYT or the WSJ, nor is there ANY disclaimer on the box that the public can clearly see. . . is to get another sale for another player?

A word comes to mind to describe this customer . . PATSY.

Yes - Sony decided to broach two markets at the same time with the same product . . the PS3. So far it has cost them BILLIONS. But they can claim that they are leading in the format war . . .

Pssst - look at my signature.;)

I'm able to answer both with one word... Microsoft.

Companies screw consumers daily. Sony is no different than Toshiba than Microsoft than Chevy than Walmart than...you get the idea.

Xbox 360 hardware was for the longest time a joke. Many of 360 sales were in part of people simply buying another system to replace a damaged product.

And as far as the PS3 is concern...it's a gaming system. Of course, it's going to lose money. MS lost billions on the original Xbox alone. The vast majority of gaming profits come from accessories and licensing fees (not the individual hardware).

Edit... And like I said, if Guy A spends $500 on a product he knows little about, it's on him. Remember, when parents used to teach "take responsibility for your actions," it still applies. If you buy "early" or new technology, you should look into the risks.

I'm able to answer both with one word... Microsoft.

Companies screw consumers daily. Sony is no different than Toshiba than Microsoft than Chevy than Walmart than...you get the idea.

Xbox 360 hardware was for the longest time a joke. Many of 360 sales were in part of people simply buying another system to replace a damaged product.

And as far as the PS3 is concern...it's a gaming system. Of course, it's going to lose money. MS lost billions on the original Xbox alone. The vast majority of gaming profits come from accessories and licensing fees (not the individual hardware).

Edit... And like I said, if Guy A spends $500 on a product he knows little about, it's on him. Remember, when parents used to teach "take responsibility for your actions," it still applies. If you buy "early" or new technology, you should look into the risks.

This argument only works if the information is available for that consumer to educate themselves. Check the BDA's website ... very little information on Profiles or none at all. It's hard to educate yourself about things that are purposely hidden.

But, that's all off topic. November 1st can't come soon enough -- we're just rehashing all the same talking points over and over and over in a thread that has nothing to do with these talking points. It's all just deflection. *shrug*

Xbox 360 hardware was for the longest time a joke. Many of 360 sales were in part of people simply buying another system to replace a damaged product.


You were obviously not a gamer last generation when every PS2 would spout out "Disc Read Errors" after 91 days.

This argument only works if the information is available for that consumer to educate themselves. Check the BDA's website ... very little information on Profiles or none at all. It's hard to educate yourself about things that are purposely hidden.

But, that's all off topic. November 1st can't come soon enough -- we're just rehashing all the same talking points over and over and over in a thread that has nothing to do with these talking points. It's all just deflection. *shrug*

Well, that's why there are sites such as this one with us fine gentlemen and ladies that are more than happy to help those seeking knowledge. :D

But as you said, which is what I stated, November 1st "can't come soon enough." 1.1 requirement, Simpsons game, the official month of "it's ok go eat till you burst." All good stuff.

You were obviously not a gamer last generation when every PS2 would spout out "Disc Read Errors" after 91 days.

Not only was I, but I was (and still am) the "Lord of Gaming." Thank you very much.

But your point doesn't change anything, nor is it in relation to the specific topic being discussed. This isn't about faulty gaming hardware. The point being that companies screw people all the time. It's nothing new and Sony isn't the lone offender.

Where is the "Don't care" option?

PIP is like having a bidet in your house...THe wife thought it was a good idea to get it, but no one ever used it.

lol, so very true

LOL, why didn't you just make a poll that says "If you like HD-DVD select Yes and if you like Blu-Ray select No".

Since the poll shows user names you can click on them to see sigs and previous posts. Pretty easy to tell who is backing which side.

The Panasonic DMP BDP-30K is supposed to be announced on Wednesday for release in early to mid November. According to rumors (panasonic brochures) it will be 1.1. So I doubt that the 10/31/07 deadline will be moved at this point.

Bland, actually I think a bidet would be used more than PIP.:D

Only one more day till all existing BD players are officially obsolete...

I'm able to answer both with one word... Microsoft.

Companies screw consumers daily. Sony is no different than Toshiba than Microsoft than Chevy than Walmart than...you get the idea.

Xbox 360 hardware was for the longest time a joke. Many of 360 sales were in part of people simply buying another system to replace a damaged product.

And as far as the PS3 is concern...it's a gaming system. Of course, it's going to lose money. MS lost billions on the original Xbox alone. The vast majority of gaming profits come from accessories and licensing fees (not the individual hardware).

Edit... And like I said, if Guy A spends $500 on a product he knows little about, it's on him. Remember, when parents used to teach "take responsibility for your actions," it still applies. If you buy "early" or new technology, you should look into the risks.


If you look over the history of the PS1 and PS2, they never lost the the kind of money that the PS3 is currently hemmeraging. MS can afford to lose billions, Sony can't.

Lee

for someone who's so anti blu-ray you sure seem to make a lot of threads about them. since you obviously don't care for the format, why do you even take issue whether or not the deadline will be extended?

because it serves to do HDM in general a disservice if the BDA screws over the early adopters who settled for Blu-Ray.

Gimme the movie with orga&mic PQ/SQ. That's enough.

because it serves to do HDM in general a disservice if the BDA screws over the early adopters who settled for Blu-Ray.

lol so this is essentially his way of looking out for the little people? i hope you dont really believe that man

Doesn't matter if that's his true intention or not, it's the collateral damage either way.

If you look over the history of the PS1 and PS2, they never lost the the kind of money that the PS3 is currently hemmeraging. MS can afford to lose billions, Sony can't.

Again, not the point. Plus, unless you're one of their accountants, don't assume what Sony is able to afford. And please, I don't want to see reports about Sony's profits or debts...it's off-topic and the point.

Only one more day till all existing BD players are officially obsolete...

This really is flame bait. The players will not be obsolete in two days, and since there is no content to break their current functions, nothing really changes this November.

The real question is whether content that supports 1.1 and 2.0 features will play without flaw on 1.0 players. If this content can play, then these players will be fine for their main function, however, they will disappoint some who did not realize that they would not be able to access the types of features Disney described for next year's releases.

As a fairly satisfied HD DVD owner, I read these profile threads because I do care about BD-Live, and I will not purchase a player until 2.0 is functioning. I'm sorry to see this somewhat benign thread turn into a flame war the past 2 days. Maybe there was pent up frustration due to WM, TF, and the impending high profile BD software releases.

The reality is, with exclusive studios out there, none of this matters. How can one vehemently support one side or the other right now when the only answer for true lovers of HD media would be to own and support both formats?

Obsolete is a strong word. It means that it does not function with any worth in the current landscape. If a BD player plays all movies, it may be crippled in some ways, but it would by no means be obsolete.

20th Century Fox Home Entertainment has said that it will become the first studio to release a movie on Blu-ray with picture-in-picture interactivity when it releases the thriller "Sunshine" in January.

Mostly all current Blu-ray players cannot play back P-I-P features although all HD DVD players have the ability to do so.

All Blu-ray players launched after October 31st must be capable of playing P-I-P as mandated by the Blu-ray Disc Association.

Source:
VideoBusiness

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11628.cfm

They BETTER update the PS3 at the time (or before) Sunshine's release, because I'm all over that title.

35 hours and 15 min to go.....:eek:

........ but who is counting !:rolleyes:

Read my sig...:D

PIP is like having a bidet in your house...THe wife thought it was a good idea to get it, but no one ever used it.

True... But if you had to pay $400+ for just the toilet from one contractor, and another contractor can install both for less than half the price, common sense would prevail, would it not?

$198 for a fully equipped washroom (or HDM player) is a great deal...

:D

True... But if you had to pay $400+ for just the toilet from one contractor, and another contractor can install both for less than half the price, common sense would prevail, would it not?

$198 for a fully equipped washroom (or HDM player) is a great deal...

:D

Well, I don't have room for a bidet, so I'd probably ask the second contractor for an even lower price, but I guess we are getting off track.. ;)

Back to Topic:
1. No, they won't extend the deadline. All new players announced going forward will have 1.1
2. PS3 will with 95% certainty be upgraded to 1.1 compabitibility
3. Vast majority of BD playback devices IS the PS3
4. My personal opinion is that PIP is completely uninteresting.

Only one more day till all existing BD players are officially obsolete...

It kills you that they didn't move the deadline doesn't it. You probably will not sleep tonight.

Here is the official press release for the new Panasonic player.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/202602859?cid=RSSfeed_digitaltvdesignline_dtvdlRSS

Here is the official press release for the new Panasonic player.

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/202602859?cid=RSSfeed_digitaltvdesignline_dtvdlRSS


Where is the official press release? I didn't see one at that link.

Less than two days left and we can /thread. :D

Doesn't matter if that's his true intention or not, it's the collateral damage either way.

collateral damage for what? thats no different than thebland or beatboy making threads asking if wb or uni go neutral, what does that mean for hd dvd.

Aha! It looks like they're not going to move the date ... because they're not really going to enforce it ... :p

Parsons also explained that the BDA is not going to object to some Blu-ray manufacturers, such as Samsung, which are not technically abiding by the Oct. 31 deadline for advanced features in players. Samsung’s dual-format model, bowing in late December, will include ‘Bonus View’ machinery but will still require a firmware upgrade to playback such advanced interactivity as picture-in-picture. That upgrade won’t be available to consumers until January.

“The key point is to get to the transition to Bonus View,” said Parsons to VB. “The player is compatible with all the hardware. We won’t quibble over something like [the firmware upgrade]. We don’t want to get bureaucratic. The most important thing is to deliver product that meets customer expectations.”

I like the last sentence particularly ... if the customer buys this product in December, aren't their expectations going to be that it meets Profile 1.1 and they can watch Profile 1.1 titles? Except ... it wont play the title until January [maybe].

The fact that they're waiting to release firmware until 2008 leads me to believe there's definitely some issues they're dealing with. I guess it's really not that simple for them to do what HD DVD has been doing for 18 months. :)

OK - acceptable IMO - the hardware is there - all they need is the FW UP and a movie to go with it and there are no movies announced 1.1 for 2007.

If you read all the profile descriptions - it only lists the hardware requirements - it doesn't say it has to work on 11/1

IMO - no harm - no foul by Samsung.

OK - acceptable IMO - the hardware is there - all they need is the FW UP and a movie to go with it and there are no movies announced 1.1 for 2007.

If you read all the profile descriptions - it only lists the hardware requirements - it doesn't say it has to work on 11/1

IMO - no harm - no foul by Samsung.

I still think it should be able to play any content when that content is released. But like you said, at least the hardware is there.

I don't think they'll stop supporting the hardware before the firmware is available -- they've been good on the 1200 and other units.

All of that said, clearly the speculation that the CE's are having issues implementing this was pretty well founded.

I still think it should be able to play any content when that content is released. But like you said, at least the hardware is there.

I don't think they'll stop supporting the hardware before the firmware is available -- they've been good on the 1200 and other units.

All of that said, clearly the speculation that the CE's are having issues implementing this was pretty well founded.

FACT - IF did not work on all HD DVD players. A FW UP was required when Blood Diamonds came out - first HD DVD IF title to be released.

I am sure that the issue of play what is available will be no problem - maybe just a speed bump like the BD+ issue was - took Sam. 4 days to solve that.

By the looks of things there will be only two players to do 1.1 this year - the New Panasonic and the Sam. 5000. Unless the LG DF BH200 is also 1.1 compliant.

FACT - IF did not work on all HD DVD players. A FW UP was required when Blood Diamonds came out - first HD DVD IF title to be released.

I am sure that the issue of play what is available will be no problem - maybe just a speed bump like the BD+ issue was - took Sam. 4 days to solve that.

By the looks of things there will be only two players to do 1.1 this year - the New Panasonic and the Sam. 5000. Unless the LG DF BH200 is also 1.1 compliant.

BD+ issue isn't fully resolved yet ... LG and PC Players are still broken, no?

BD+ issue isn't fully resolved yet ... LG and PC Players are still broken, no?

As far as I know - yes . . but we were discussing Samsung.

I don't like this new Lee Stewart ... :p

Only one more day till all existing BD players are officially obsolete...Man, I am going to be so pissed if I wake up early this Thursday (November 1st), put a Masters of Horror Blu-ray disc into my Blu-ray player and nothing happens. If my BD player is dead, I'm defecting to the Red Side. Of course, if the Masters of Horror movies plays, I'll stick with Blu-ray for the duration.:):)Maybe all Blu-ray owners should try this Thursday and PM rdjam with the results? Or post them here.

Maybe someone should open a "It's 11/01/07 and my Blu-ray Player Still Plays" thread?

Man, I am going to be so pissed if I wake up early this Thursday (November 1st), put a Masters of Horror Blu-ray disc into my Blu-ray player and nothing happens. If my BD player is dead, I'm defecting to the Red Side. Of course, if the Masters of Horror movies plays, I'll stick with Blu-ray for the duration.:):)Maybe all Blu-ray owners should try this Thursday and PM rdjam with the results? Or post them here.

Maybe someone should open a "It's 11/01/07 and my Blu-ray Player Still Plays" thread?

I don't know would the whole forum be interested? There's really only one person concerned, so PM's would probably be fine.:D

Well it seems that BDA wants your money folks. The new Panasonic BM30 HAS NO Ethernet Port. It is strickly a 1.0 and 1.1 player but not a 2.0 Web Enable player. NO IF features for this player.

Gues that jump to 1GB in Per. Storage was harder and more expensive than the CEM's were willing to pay - or at least for Panasonic.

?

Well it seems that BDA wants your money folks. The new Panasonic BM30 HAS NO Ethernet Port. It is strickly a 1.0 and 1.1 player but not a 2.0 Web Enable player. NO IF features for this player.

Gues that jump to 1GB in Per. Storage was harder and more expensive than the CEM's were willing to pay - or at least for Panasonic.

?
Being an early adopter, I personally took the risk of buying into Blu-ray and HD DVD knowing that one would become obsolete one day.
I didn't fool myself that the A20 I bought or the BD-P1200 would be my one and only final HDM player since the dust hasn't settled yet.
I wanted better PQ/AQ now and was willing to pay for it and didn't want to wait for the "war" to be over.

That being said, most of us know that if we want 1.1 or 2.0 capabilities, we will have to buy new players but by then player prices should be around the $100-200 mark in the next year. For the early adopter, that shouldn't be much $$$ considering people who are early adopters seem to have multiple HDTV's and in some cases, multiple HDM players for both or one format.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with an HDM player is poor considering the discs cost twice as much as SD in most cases. People with an HDM obviously have some extra cash to spend.

Being an early adopter, I personally took the risk of buying into Blu-ray and HD DVD knowing that one would become obsolete one day.
I didn't fool myself that the A20 I bought or the BD-P1200 would be my one and only final HDM player since the dust hasn't settled yet.
I wanted better PQ/AQ now and was willing to pay for it and didn't want to wait for the "war" to be over.

That being said, most of us know that if we want 1.1 or 2.0 capabilities, we will have to buy new players but by then player prices should be around the $100-200 mark in the next year. For the early adopter, that shouldn't be much $$$ considering people who are early adopters seem to have multiple HDTV's and in some cases, multiple HDM players for both or one format.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with an HDM player is poor considering the discs cost twice as much as SD in most cases. People with an HDM obviously have some extra cash to spend.

Please - you are not trying to justify buying a new player every year to stay up with the new features are you?

2006 - 1.0
2007 - 1.1
2008 - 2.0

And that makes sense? At $400 to $500 each?

:confused::confused::confused:

I don't like this new Lee Stewart ... :p

See, and I was gonna help subsidize his purchase of a 2.0 player.

See, and I was gonna help subsidize his purchase of a 2.0 player.

Gee thanks:(

There are NO BD 2.0 players:p

That's OK though . . because I am going to run right out now and go buy EVERYONE here at AVS not only a TL Twin disc . . . but also a TL51!

How's that! Am I a magnamious person or what?:D

Gee thanks:(

There are NO BD 2.0 players:p

When there is one, my friend. :D

Edit: and of course, not a PS3. I understand and agree with your dislike of a game console as a player.

Source:
VideoBusiness

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11628.cfm

Being an early adopter, I personally took the risk of buying into Blu-ray and HD DVD knowing that one would become obsolete one day.
I didn't fool myself that the A20 I bought or the BD-P1200 would be my one and only final HDM player since the dust hasn't settled yet.
I wanted better PQ/AQ now and was willing to pay for it and didn't want to wait for the "war" to be over.

That being said, most of us know that if we want 1.1 or 2.0 capabilities, we will have to buy new players but by then player prices should be around the $100-200 mark in the next year. For the early adopter, that shouldn't be much $$$ considering people who are early adopters seem to have multiple HDTV's and in some cases, multiple HDM players for both or one format.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with an HDM player is poor considering the discs cost twice as much as SD in most cases. People with an HDM obviously have some extra cash to spend.

Its not about you or BD suporters here it is about all the othe familys across the US that either have HD tv's or want to buy a new one soon that is who the CE'S and the studios should be trying to entice.

When there is one, my friend. :D

See my edited post - you were too fast for me!:D

To the point of the thread ... Andy Parsons today stated the "deadline" doesn't count and anyone, such as Samsung he named, can release a 1.0 player anytime in 2007, use the Blu-ray logo, and not worry that it doesn't play "Bonus View" discs. He didn't say how long this "blind eye approach" to the binding contracts of the BDA would apply ....

I don't know would the whole forum be interested? There's really only one person concerned, so PM's would probably be fine.:DWell, rdjam's in-basket is frequently filled. And many folks around the AVS forum have been stating that come November 1st, all Blu-ray players will be obsolete. With so many knowledgeable people saying that, it couldn't be a falsehood, could it?

My local weather forecast is calling for a beautiful day Thursday. I want ot see if the miracle I'm hoping for comes to pass. Will my Blu-ray player work? Or will it be an obsolete brick? I'll want to share the results of my Thursday experiment with the many wonderful and well-meaning folks on this forum; particularly those who were bearers of the news of the impending obsolescence of existing Blu-ray players.

Well, rdjam's in-basket is frequently filled. And many folks around the AVS forum have been stating that come November 1st, all Blu-ray players will be obsolete. With so many knowledgeable people saying that, it couldn't be a falsehood, could it?

My local weather forecast is calling for a beautiful day Thursday. I want ot see if the miracle I'm hoping for comes to pass. Will my Blu-ray player work? Or will it be an obsolete brick? I'll want to share the results of my Thursday experiment with the many wonderful and well-meaning folks on this forum; particularly those who were bearers of the news of the impending obsolescence of existing Blu-ray players.

I think it'll be like that Y2K thing. Your player will only be able to play silent movies from late 1907 and earlier.

Aha! It looks like they're not going to move the date ... because they're not really going to enforce itjdg345, do you even know how long it took for the first HD DVD players to get firmware updates to be able to play discs with internet extras? Let us just say that 1 or 2 months is a short amount of time in comparison.


I guess it's really not that simple for them to do what HD DVD has been doing for 18 months.Really? When did they add to the HD DVD specs the ability to do dynamic outlining for text based subtitles? Also do you mind listing all of the HD DVD players that currently have the ability to access external persistent storage?

jdg345, do you even know how long it took for the first HD DVD players to get firmware updates to be able to play discs with internet extras? Let us just say that 1 or 2 months is a short amount of time in comparison.

Ahhh ... of course this would be okay for you, you love semantics. :D


Really? When did they add to the HD DVD specs the ability to do dynamic outlining for text based subtitles? Also do you mind listing all of the HD DVD players that currently have the ability to access external persistent storage?

Ahhh ... so you found something else ... first it was the Enhanced Secondary Video Decoder and how Blu-ray was better because it would have HD PiP Mandatory -- we all know how that worked out. Is this your new talking point? Dynamic Outlining? Seriously? Wasn't this pointed out by amilians recently in the Insider's thread?

Oh, and to play the game: Any HD DVD player with a USB or Network Port (ie: All of them) has the capability to access external persistent storage. Every single one.

To the point of the thread ... Andy Parsons today stated the "deadline" doesn't count and anyone, such as Samsung he named, can release a 1.0 player anytime in 2007, use the Blu-ray logo, and not worry that it doesn't play "Bonus View" discs. He didn't say how long this "blind eye approach" to the binding contracts of the BDA would apply ....

That is really not factual. 1.0 players are missing hardware in the player.

The Samsung has all the hardware in the player - they just need a FW UP to make it work.

So the hardware requirement for 1.1 has been met. The fact that there will be no movies with 1.1 until Jan. - they may be waiting to test one (like they forgot to test FF - ROTSS:o) and see what needs to be changed via the FM UP.

This happened to HD DVD if you remember. If you wanted to access the Web Enable feature on Blood Diamonds - you needed to do a FW UP - but the hardware was all there.

jdg345, do you even know how long it took for the first HD DVD players to get firmware updates to be able to play discs with internet extras? Let us just say that 1 or 2 months is a short amount of time in comparison.

My recollection was that the FM UP was released at the time Blood Diamonds was released on HD DVD. Am I mistaken?


Really? When did they add to the HD DVD specs the ability to do dynamic outlining for text based subtitles? Also do you mind listing all of the HD DVD players that currently have the ability to access external persistent storage?

Could you tell me (I don't know) what these two specs do - why they are valuable?

This happened to HD DVD if you remember. If you wanted to access the Web Enable feature on Blood Diamonds - you needed to do a FW UP - but the hardware was all there.

The FW update was released before the title was available if I remember correctly. So the firmware was ready before the disc was in consumer hands.

That wasn't the case with BD+ ... I wonder if it will be the case also with Profile 1.1 titles?

Supposedly there is another benefit to BD 1.1 - DS Video.

It can be made into a platform for 3D (Mits wants this badly to keep their RPTV's alive in a FPD market)

The specs for BD are slightly different for DS Video then they are for HD DVD. . . . BD can . . . if the disc is so encoded . . . send Dual 1080P streams to a display. HD DVD can't do this.

The FW update was released before the title was available if I remember correctly. So the firmware was ready before the disc was in consumer hands.

That wasn't the case with BD+ ... I wonder if it will be the case also with Profile 1.1 titles?

I believe that the BDA CEM's will not let that happen . . again. That ALL 1.1 titles will be tested on ALL players to see if a FW UP is necessary and do it a week before the title comes out.

My recollection was that the FM UP was released at the time Blood Diamonds was released on HD DVD. Am I mistaken?

Could you tell me (I don't know) what these two specs do - why they are valuable?

He'll get back to you on this in a bit ... right now he's busy reporting my posts in the News Thread. :D

I believe that the BDA CEM's will not let that happen . . again. That ALL 1.1 titles will be tested on ALL players to see if a FW UP is necessary and do it a week before the title comes out.

You certainly have more faith in them than I do.

That is really not factual. 1.0 players are missing hardware in the player.

The Samsung has all the hardware in the player - they just need a FW UP to make it work.

You are kidding, right? It's okay to sell the Ferrrari today but you have to take it to the shop in a few months to actually get the spiffy speed you paid for? And, hey, you can trust me to deliver: I've been selling cars for a long time ....

So the hardware requirement for 1.1 has been met. The fact that there will be no movies with 1.1 until Jan. - they may be waiting to test one (like they forgot to test FF - ROTSS:o) and see what needs to be changed via the FM UP.

Lee, I am trying to be fair, too. But you are asking us to accept that it's ok to sell Bonus View Blu-ray players in 2007 when some of them have already been announced as out of compliance till 2008 by the CE manufacturer, and others claim compliance but no one can prove it because no Bonus View discs will be available till 2008.

This is an environment in which we can all agree "requirement for 1.1 has been met"? Not!

And, sure, I agree: FF - ROTSS demonstrated the inadequacies of 1.0 players ... all the more reason to "suspect" 1.1 has not been met until Bonus View Blu-ray players are demonstrating commercial Bonus View content.

Until then: the age of 1.0 is "Standard View". But, oh wait: maybe that's the Orwellian strategy behind renaming 1.1 as "bonus view"?

Being an early adopter, I personally took the risk of buying into Blu-ray and HD DVD knowing that one would become obsolete one day.
I didn't fool myself that the A20 I bought or the BD-P1200 would be my one and only final HDM player since the dust hasn't settled yet.
I wanted better PQ/AQ now and was willing to pay for it and didn't want to wait for the "war" to be over.

That being said, most of us know that if we want 1.1 or 2.0 capabilities, we will have to buy new players but by then player prices should be around the $100-200 mark in the next year. For the early adopter, that shouldn't be much $$$ considering people who are early adopters seem to have multiple HDTV's and in some cases, multiple HDM players for both or one format.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with an HDM player is poor considering the discs cost twice as much as SD in most cases. People with an HDM obviously have some extra cash to spend.


When you bought the BR player that gave you no choice but to think the way you do. Sorry but I just don't understand your logic here. Most folks that bought into BR had no idea what was being pulled on them. Maybe you did, most did not.

You are kidding, right? It's okay to sell the Ferrrari today but you have to take it to the shop in a few months to actually get the spiffy speed you paid for? And, hey, you can trust me to deliver: I've been selling cars for a long time ....

Lee, I am trying to be fair, too. But you are asking us to accept that it's ok to sell Bonus View Blu-ray players in 2007 when some of them have already been announced as out of compliance till 2008 by the CE manufacturer, and others claim compliance but no one can prove it because no Bonus View discs will be available till 2008.

This is an environment in which we can all agree "requirement for 1.1 has been met"? Not!

And, sure, I agree: FF - ROTSS demonstrated the inadequacies of 1.0 players ... all the more reason to "suspect" 1.1 has not been met until Bonus View Blu-ray players are demonstrating commercial Bonus View content.

Until then: the age of 1.0 is "Standard View". But, oh wait: maybe that's the Orwellian strategy behind renaming 1.1 as "bonus view"?

If you read the wording on profile 1.1 - the Final Standard - you will see that it clearly spells out what hardware is required within the player to accomplish this.

Samsung uses Broadcom for their SoC (Panasonic uses SIGMA BTW) who was late to the 1.1 BD party because they got hung up on the Luma Keying problem . . which SIGMA solved. LK is required to make DS Video work.

And as there are no DS PIP BD titles in the wild - Samsung is saying (rightly so) that they want a title from normal manufacturing and not one custom built with TLC to test the Broadcom SoC - which gave them a problem with BD+

The 5000 has all the necessary components within it to qualify as a 1.1 player:

1. Dual processor SoC (with luma keying)

2. 256 MB per. Storage.

We have NO guarantee the Panasonic BM30 will work with a manufactured 1.1 BD title. they are saying it will.

Samsung is only saying they need to do a FW UP to enable the DS PIP feature.

So you are calling this a foul?

Do you know anyone here at AVS more passionate about facts and HD DVD than me? And I see nothing wrong with what is going on.

Sony was forced to street the S500 and ES2000 before 10/31 because they do not have the required hardware inside (at $700 and $1200:eek:)

Samsung is only saying they need to do a FW UP to enable the DS PIP feature.

So you are calling this a foul?

Since you ask, yes.

Samsung and Panasonic are trying to label their new players as "Bonus View" Blu-ray and yet neither intends to "prove" it till 2008. One of them already says upfront it won't work until they release an update in 2008. Both are happy to take your money today.

To the point of the thread: Will the BDA extend the 10/31 deadline? Like, duh: Andy Parsons says it not longer matters, and the two players we can point to which are expected to be Bonus View capable either say, well, actually, no, they don't conform as released or we'll see in 2008 when Fox releases Sunshine and we'll figure it out then.

De facto: Profile 1.0 is dead. Long live Profile 1.0. At least well into mid-2008 when, maybe even Sony, the format leader, might deign to announce, let alone release, a stand-alone Bonus View player.

Until then: the age of 1.0 is "Standard View". But, oh wait: maybe that's the Orwellian strategy behind renaming 1.1 as "bonus view"?

Quite descriptive. It will definitely be a bonus if you can view it.:D

"Bonus View"???

WTF??

"Bonus View"???

WTF??

Profile 1.1, which was later known as FSP (or First Standard Profile), is now known as Bonus View.

So first, it was a number in the spec.
Then it was the First Standard Profile -- but that made people upset because it made them think they paid $1000 for something that was incomplete and pre-release.

So now, to make those people feel better about dropping $1000 on a substandard player, they're calling it 'Bonus View'. This way, if you have to buy a new player, they can justify it as them giving you 'bonus' features. ;)

Marketing and spin ... trying to lessen the negative PR of what is about to hit them. :)

Reminds me of when I worked in retail...
"Head Office" decided that, because customers like box sets, they would make a couple hundred thousand cardboard "sleeves" that you, the customer, could fit any four standard-sized DVDs into (but only if you bought four DVDs at a time...). These "sleeves" had images from all sorts of movies on them, ranging from pretty much every major studio. The best part was, on the "spine", there were big white spots where you could WRITE THE NAMES OF THE MOVIES YOU BOUGHT.

edit: I forgot to mention. You, the customer, didn't get a discount because you bought four DVDs to qualify to get this "awesome" box. No, you just got the box. And a smile...

The moral of the story is: the "Bonus View" renaming is the worst idea since THAT!

"Bonus View"???

WTF??

That was my reaction, too.

The BDA folks have decided Profile 1.1 aka Final Standard Profile is now going to be known as Bonus View. That sounds an awful lot like Profile 1.0 will remain "standard view" forever and "Blu-ray compliant post Oct 31" players will offer "bonus view" material.

Sad, really.

Blu-ray has de facto decided Profile 1.0 is "good enough" and the baseline for the format: no Internet, no dual video stream, no need to match a simple $199 HD DVD player. And it's still okay to charge $500 for the logo. :rolleyes:

Ahhh ... "good enough" gets so much mileage these days. :D