Pioneer has best plasma now with Kuro and best features in Elite.They stand ready to dominate the market so why would they be so picky on where elites can be sold.I realize forum people know where to get elites online but a regular customer must go to Magnolia,Tweeter and maybe a few specialty stores to find an elite.Isnt this a poor business plan?Online fears are about over if you shop with intelligence.Lets face it all plasma needs to be shipped either to a store or your house and companies do know how to get it to you without damage.Not being able to buy an elite online with a warranty is ridiculous.Perhaps the new connection with Sharp will change this practice?

Why don't you just go with the regular Pioneer? They can bought on line for a better price. It's my understanding that they're the exact same TV only without the shiny piano black case.

I asked the same question of one of the dealers that sell Loewe televisions. His response was that if everyone sold them then they'd cut each others throat on price.

a better question would be, why is this in " DVD Movie, Concerts, and Music Discussion and Reviews"?

Ya. Moving...

larry

Why don't you just go with the regular Pioneer? They can bought on line for a better price. It's my understanding that they're the exact same TV only without the shiny piano black case.

Nope. Download the PDFs of comparable models and you will see a number of differences. Elites, if you have the money, are worth the difference.

Its all about the money to Pioneer.

The Elites have extra features and pioneer wants customers to get personal explanations and demonstrations. Websites are not conducive to that process. This is not their comodity line and since they are selling at a premium it warrants that care.

They do not want "any" dealer out there doing business that they are not good at (selling on the internet). That is why even for Pioneer consumer there is an internet authorized list (and you have to do allot to get on it, right now Pioneer is not even accepting applications). You have to understand the average non forum consumer when getting an Elite will pay the premium and get the installation and the full setup so it makes sense for the smaller dealers to be authorized locally. (we all know there are exceptions in everything :)

Call it like it is, "Snob Appeal".

Pioneer's business strategy for the Elites is to keep margins high - sell fewer, but make a lot of money on those they do sell. In order to do that, they have to create and maintain a "premium" brand perception. Selling Elites online and in regular old B&M stores would chip away at that "premium" status.

I doubt Pioneer cares very much about having dealers who are knowledgeable about their TVs, so to speak, but do care about having dealers who can maintain and sell premium brands.

Pioneer Elte products are sold thru limited distribution the dist need to attend pioneer traing etc, its some what of a load of crap, but the elite products are supposed to be sold at MSRP and also no internet sales..

I doubt Pioneer cares very much about having dealers who are knowledgeable about their TVs,

You are wrong. Lot's of manufacturers limit distribution to resellers that can add value. Just because some people here are trying to squeeze the last dollar out of the transaction doesn't mean manufacturers should compromise their strategy

Its all about the money to Pioneer.

Since they're bleeding cash, it most definitely should be. :D

Since they're bleeding cash, it most definitely should be. :D

Then all these Kuro plasmas they are selling must really be helping the bottom line. ;)

Pioneer is making an exclusive product with the elite. The elite television has many more features that the standard pdp display including its ISF calibration readiness, more polished processor, more customizability in the picture settings, and a less reflective glare screen. It is NOT the same tv as their standard pdp. Pioneer produces this TV to be just that, the best damn plasma period. if you ask anyone who has seen the Elite Kuro next to the standard pdp Kuro they will be able to tell you that there is an immense difference in picture qualtiy. The Elite is only available in stores where the salesperson is qualified to explain to you what the differences are between the two sets, and why the Elite is, well Elite. That is the same reason you cant buy a Lamborgini Murcialago in a VW dealership.

Call it like it is, "Snob Appeal".I thought that was only Sony all baloney................

Nah, you can buy a Sony almost anywhere, even Wal-Mart and Target. You can't even get a Pioneer at Circuit City much less Wal-Mart.

Immense difference in PQ between the regular Pioneer and the Pioneer Elite sets? I'm not quite sure where you heard that as I consistently hear that there is no real difference in the "out of the box" picture between, let's say, a 150FD and a 6010FD.

The processor in the Elite is idential to the processor in the non-elites except there are more adjustments in the software. I don't know why this myth keeps getting perpetutated

Classic example of "upscale" marketing. Many luxury brands don't allow certain of their items to be sold on the proletarian internet. Gives these items extra cache and snob appeal. You have to go to a "boutique" to get them where you're likely to be more susceptible to paying a higher price.

Has little to do with expertise of the vendor. You can get Elites at most Best Buy locations. While some BB employees are indeed experts on the high-end products they sell, the majority I've seen are high-school or college kids looking to make a buck.

You can not get Sony XBR everywhere. Like the Elite you need to be authorized XBR dealer.

Nah, you can buy a Sony almost anywhere, even Wal-Mart and Target. You can't even get a Pioneer at Circuit City much less Wal-Mart.

Actually, you can only get the Elites at BB's WITH Magnolia's, because the Magnolia chain has gone through the process to get trained and certified. What has changed for BB/Magnolia is that it was a harder business model to have both BB and Mag stores in the same location, so they decided to incorporate a Mag division inside a BB. This gives them the best of both worlds. Larger store distrubution with less overhead and still allows them to sell the higher end products.

That's not to comment on the employees and their level of quality. It's just an explanation of how BB is able to sell Elites.

You can get Elites at most Best Buy locations. While some BB employees are indeed experts on the high-end products they sell, the majority I've seen are high-school or college kids looking to make a buck.

Dejavu....

Immense difference in PQ between the regular Pioneer and the Pioneer Elite sets? I'm not quite sure where you heard that as I consistently hear that there is no real difference in the "out of the box" picture between, let's say, a 150FD and a 6010FD.

Pioneer has best plasma now with Kuro and best features in Elite.They stand ready to dominate the market so why would they be so picky on where elites can be sold.I realize forum people know where to get elites online but a regular customer must go to Magnolia,Tweeter and maybe a few specialty stores to find an elite.Isnt this a poor business plan?Online fears are about over if you shop with intelligence.Lets face it all plasma needs to be shipped either to a store or your house and companies do know how to get it to you without damage.Not being able to buy an elite online with a warranty is ridiculous.Perhaps the new connection with Sharp will change this practice?


The same reason Fujitsu and Ronco's are only available at certain dealers. They realize that those products will be, for the most part, catered to a more exclusive clientele and they want to make sure the stores representing them are doing so in a proper manner. The stores personnel go through special training and are much more than a Circuit City or BB salesperson and are technically trained to help those to make a more educated decision. The stores are also trained to properly set up the displays to ensure they are getting the most out of their picture and some stored will even ISF calibrate a set. You won't find that at CC or BB.

Several electronics companies have prestige lines with limited (and usually tightly controlled) sales outlets. Sony did this with their ES line (I don't know if they still do). Onkyo limits the places that sell their Integra brand. Denon makes some of their product line only available to select dealers. Elite is just another one of these lines.

The basic idea is that these products will carry higher prices but also a higher level of features, quality, sales support and service. In exchange for the dealer providing the support and service, he gets a guarantee of less competition and price-cutting from the manufacturer.

The reason it boils down to "snob appeal", especially with the Elite's, is that the major components that mean anything to the average buyer, like the processor, is the same as the non Elite models. They basically offer more "tweakability", and that is exactly what Pioneer is trying to appeal to, that this set is worth a grand more because if you have it you must know how to utilize it's magical, semi professional, tweakablity possibilities. Let the average Joe wish he could do what you can do. You Guru you. And it obviously works.

So because I prefer the Elites over the non-Elites, I'm a snob? Interesting.

So because I prefer the Elites over the non-Elites, I'm a snob? Interesting.

LoL.
D-Nice you gotta let it go man. There are some people that understand and there are some that never will.
It all comes down to your own choice and being able to afford that choice!
:)

No no no d-nice. I am not saying that you are a snob at all. Most of the people here on this forum that but Elites buy them because they can utilize the added tuning features available on the Elite and consider those PQ benefits worth the extra $$$. The question is, why does Pioneer offer the Elite (really why) and can the rather large cost difference be justified? I mean, if the Elite was the only model offered what would it be priced at? Maybe a couple of hundred more (if that) then the non Elite would be my guess.

it's business, it's a mix of things, like marketing and choices for the consumer and mazimizing profits. You see it in so many other product lines. Like a Chvey truck that starts at say $18,000 and another one on the lot a row over adds a diesel engine and 4x4 and leather and a Z71 package and SNAP it is over $40,000. Heck I had a Lexus and the power window buttons and door handles were the same as my aunt's Corolla except on my Lexus they were chromed. IF you want to stick in the a/v world just look at cabling, oh my gawd.....one monster hdmi cable is oh say $100 and another is $200+ etc etc, all the while a nice $10 one from monoprice.com works just fine, :) you should be calling out monster not pioneer, lol.

There is only a 15% difference in the 6010 and the pro150FD, you do get an extra year warranty, networking, the tweakability, different filter and few other things, and the choice is up to the consumer, their purchases will tell Pioneer whether or not the added cost are justified and therefore whether pioneer made a right or wrong choice to make those product offers and at what different msrp prices they should continue or eliminate those offerings. All of the new Pioneer 8G Kuros are great plasmas, with the new deep blacks and higher contrast, your getting the best plasma on the market for this year.

Onkyo did it with their new receivers, they put the Reon chip in the higher end 875 and 905 but only the 905 with the higher $$ msrp has controls over it in the menu.

so just business, marketing, choices, and profits etc etc....

The Elite is more that just additional settings. Thr Elites have Pure mode which is pretty much the defacto mode for Pioneer plasmas, networking capabilities to stream music, video, and pictures from you PC, better parts (QC), and the 1080p Elites have a totally different PDP glass . They also come with an additional year on the warranty (US models only).

Whether these items are worth the extra money is a personal choice.

Whether these items are worth the extra money is a personal choice.

Correct. Don't want people to start thinking the consumer line is not amazing :)

What better parts other than glass. What is different about it that makes it better. I'm not bitching, just seriously curious.

When I say better I mean higher QC limits. If you want details, you will nee to ask Pioneer.

I doubt Pioneer cares very much about having dealers who are knowledgeable about their TVs,

You are wrong. Lot's of manufacturers limit distribution to resellers that can add value. Just because some people here are trying to squeeze the last dollar out of the transaction doesn't mean manufacturers should compromise their strategy

No, I'm not wrong, but I may have expressed my point inarticulately.

From a "knowledge needed by the dealer to sell" perspective, there is no practical difference between the Elites and the regular ol' Kuros, and yet Pioneer is perfectly content to sell regular ol' Kuros through regular ol' sales channels, using regular ol' salespeople with the knowledge level of a typical Best Buy salesperson, or online. So Pioneer is perfectly content to sell their complex products through a non-knowledgeable dealer.

Pioneer sells Elites through its exclusive dealers, not because those dealers are more knowledgeable, but because those dealers attract a clientele who are interested in buying premium products. (Yes, it just so happens that to attract that clientele, it can be helpful to be knowledgeable, so those premium dealers DO tend to have a lot more knowledge than your run-of-the-mill dealers. But that's not the reason Pioneer selects them.)

Those dealers tend to attract two different kinds of people: (1) videophiles (such as visit this site), and (2) people who have money burning in their pockets and therefore want to buy premium products. The former don't generally need knowledgeable salespeople because they're knowledgeable themselves, and the latter are prone to buying on factors other than the facts.

Let's put it this way: let's say Pioneer gets a report on two of its Elite dealers: Dealer A is selling a lot of Elites, but exhibits little knowledge about the products. Dealer B is not selling too many Elites, but they know a TON about the products. Which one does Pioneer keep?

Let's put it this way: let's say Pioneer gets a report on two of its Elite dealers: Dealer A is selling a lot of Elites, but exhibits little knowledge about the products. Dealer B is not selling too many Elites, but they know a TON about the products. Which one does Pioneer keep?

Both. They just dont sign on anymore :)

Call it like it is, "Snob Appeal". So because I prefer the Elites over the non-Elites, I'm a snob? Interesting.In this era of Political Correctness even technology is not immune, lest we hurt the feelings of those who own inferior PDPs.

When I say better I mean higher QC limits. If you want details, you will nee to ask Pioneer.
But does higher quality control on these Elites mean they are free of dead pixels? I don't believe so according to posts from users having dead pixels on their Elite. But if this was the case (Elites free of dead pixels) then this would definitely put the true meaning into "higher QC" and we can all rest peacefully. ;)

;)

PDP-4280 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PDP%2D4280HD) and PRO-950 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PRO%2D950HD)

PDP-5080 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PDP%2D5080HD) and PRO-1150 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PRO%2D1150HD)

PDP-5010 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PDP%2D5010FD) and PRO-110 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PRO%2D110FD)

PDP-6010 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PDP%2D6010FD)and PRO-150 (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/model.asp?modelNum=PRO%2D150FD)

But does higher quality control on these Elites mean they are free of dead pixels? I don't believe so according to posts from users having dead pixels on their Elite. But if this was the case (Elites free of dead pixels) then this would definitely put the true meaning into "higher QC" and we can all rest peacefully. ;)You will find dead pixels on Runco, Fujitsu, and B&O plasmas, so what's your point? All flat panel displays suffer from dead pixels.

Yes d-nice, but all mfgrs like Runco, Fujitsu, and B&O do not offer an Elite model which they charge more for. If the QC is better on the Elite then I would at least expect each panel to be inspected as it comes of the line for dead pixels. Actually, better QC may be a fact . You state QC is better so I just wondered what you based that statement on. Why would I care to prove it's not better. Maybe it is, I just wonder what they do to make it better. If they are going to charge me extra for "better", is it so bad to want to know what exactly I'm paying extra for? I think bananfish hit the nail dead on the head.

The Elite is more that just additional settings. Thr Elites have Pure mode which is pretty much the defacto mode for Pioneer plasmas, networking capabilities to stream music, video, and pictures from you PC, better parts (QC), and the 1080p Elites have a totally different PDP glass . They also come with an additional year on the warranty (US models only).

Whether these items are worth the extra money is a personal choice.and if you purchase it with Amex, Amex adds another year to the two year manufacturers warranty.

Yes d-nice, but all mfgrs like Runco, Fujitsu, and B&O do not offer an Elite model which they charge more for. If the QC is better on the Elite then I would at least expect each panel to be inspected as it comes of the line for dead pixels.They are. Can you guarantee that the electrodes that are on the backside of each cell cannot get damages during shipping? No. And that goes for ANY panel regardless of how it is marketed.
You state QC is better so I just wondered what you based that statement on.Data that I have from Pioneer. The tolerance levels for all parts of an Elite panels are more stringent when compared to the non-Elites (roughly 8% out of spec is OK'ed for Elites while non-Elites are around 15%). That translates into better QC.
If they are going to charge me extra for "better", is it so bad to want to know what exactly I'm paying extra for? I think bananfish hit the nail dead on the head.If you want to know anything more regarding Pioneer Elites, call them.

Your statement was very enlightning and made a lot of sense, until your last sentence. Why in the world would I or any consumer be expected to call a company offering a more expensive product labeled as "Elite" just to ask them why it's more expensive and why it's a better product then they're own regular product? Marketing 101. If you want to market a higher priced product you need to justify the cost to the potential customer, not just say "it's better". I'm sure that when Toyota spawned the Lexus line they didn't just say it's better then charge an extra 10 grand for it. I have come to trust what you say and because the Elite has a 7% more stringent QC process then I cannot argue the price difference justification.

Andy,

My rebuttal question to you would be why in the world would you or any consumer be expected to come to AVS to ask why an Elite is more expensive than the non-Elites?

Yes Pioneer needs to do better with the Elite marketing, but what's the point of asking this question on AVS?

You thread's title needs to be answered for you or any other curious consumer by Pioneer.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/491052600FINAL_Elite_150dpi.pdf

Anyways, here is the 2007 Elite Catalog. If it matters to those or not and I'm not saying it's going to satisfy everyone, especially those who don't want to be satisified. They could do a better job at marketing, but my guess is, they feel they don't have to.

They are both good sets, my view point is, get the best that your money can buy. How much money you have and how you want to allocate it is your own personal situation, however I would say you can get the Elites for a good price well below MSRP.

Russ

I just bought my second Pioneer, but my first Elite. I have a 5060, but just bought an 1150. I bought Elite for a couple of reasons. First, in Canada its a 3 year warranty, which by itself is practically worth the price difference (I got a pretty good percent off the MSRP). Second, there are a couple of features which are worth some additional money in my opinion. Third, I bought it from a boutique store which gave me excellent customer service, unlike you would get in a big box. For example, they check the display for dead pixels before delivery, so in theory, you should never have to worry about getting a set with a dead pixel. Also, I just like the idea of moving up from the standard Pioneer to Elite for my 2nd plasma. Next step up is a 60 inch 1080p Elite when they are more reasonable in price in a year or two. Delivery next week. Hope it doesn't make my 5060 look bad!

Both. They just dont sign on anymore :)

LOL - I'm sure you're right, Roman!

BTW, I didn't mean to impugn any dealers in any way with my posts. I just meant to point out what I see as certain business realities in regard to the OP. There are some very fine and knowledgeable Pioneer dealers - both those who sell Elites and those who don't sell Elites - and I've every reason to believe that you and Invision are one of those based on what I've read here.

The tolerance levels for all parts of an Elite panels are more stringent when compared to the non-Elites (roughly 8% out of spec is OK'ed for Elites while non-Elites are around 15%). That translates into better QC.

Many parts are used across the lines and between models.Thats what should be expected from any manufacturer trying to control its costs.

The power supply,for example, is the same (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/part.asp?productNum=AXY1157) in the 4280,5080,1150 and the 950.

I think the analogy with cars is appropriate. A Lexus ES-350 and a Toyota Camry V6 use exactly the same mechanical underpinnings but you get a little more horsepower in the Lexus, you get a tweaked suspension more ride comfort, more sound deadening for quietness, more available options, a better audio system, better leather, etc. You also can't buy a Lexus at a Toyota dealership. The number of Lexus dealerships is limited and the dealers have to provide additional levels of service to customers. The situation is essentially the same with Elites vs. standard Pioneers.

The same reason Fujitsu and Ronco's are only available at certain dealers. They realize that those products will be, for the most part, catered to a more exclusive clientele and they want to make sure the stores representing them are doing so in a proper manner. The stores personnel go through special training and are much more than a Circuit City or BB salesperson and are technically trained to help those to make a more educated decision. The stores are also trained to properly set up the displays to ensure they are getting the most out of their picture and some stored will even ISF calibrate a set. You won't find that at CC or BB.

Actually if you go into any BB/Magnolia you will notice that there are at least two TV's in the store calibrated (at least in the DFW market). BB has offered ISF calibration through the Magnolia division for over 3 years now. Stores with the 2nd video room have even a calibrated projector. Also, the BB/Magnolia employees are required to be certified in their product knowledge. This is accomplished in teirs, starting with the plain old blue shirts (college/high school guys trying to make a buck) and gets more complicated and specialized with Magnolia Employees (the guys in Ties that sell HT for a living).

The Elite is more that just additional settings. Thr Elites have Pure mode which is pretty much the defacto mode for Pioneer plasmas, networking capabilities to stream music, video, and pictures from you PC, better parts (QC), and the 1080p Elites have a totally different PDP glass . They also come with an additional year on the warranty (US models only).

Whether these items are worth the extra money is a personal choice.

Actually, if you ask any pioneer representative, the glass on ALL of the Elite/PDP cousins are shared. That means the Pro-110FD and the PDP-5010 have the same glass, the Pro-150FD and the PDP-6010 have the same galss etc. The only difference in the actual Plasma Panel is the Elite is treated with an extra layer of anti-glare film. Don't get me wrong, the Elite is a far superior television (I actually own a Pro-940) I just wanted you to have your facts right.

Plus, it means I'm Elite!!!


The market for everything is so overshopped these days. Nobody wants to pay more than a nickel over actual cost. Because they feel they are "Getting Ripped Off"

As long as the extra money I' am spending translates into better service for me, even if I dont have to use it much if ever, I am willing to pay for it.

Thats what happend to dell computers. Around the turn of the century every magazine and website said buy from Dell. You were paying more, but they had THE BEST customer serivce. They wanted to trim cost to lower price and moved thier support offshore. Now their support is considered very low grade.

I just bought a push mower for my very small yard. I had two choices the one made in china that was cheaper or the one made in Germany with a life time warranty that one more expensive. I bought the one from Germany.

Just like I will shop at my local AV store and buy the Elite. First because I know the owners name and my dollar is important to him and second because the Elite has the longer warranty.

Always remember business doesnt really care about your opinion. They care about your dollar, so to make your opinion count, vote with your dollar.

Many parts are used across the lines and between models.Thats what should be expected from any manufacturer trying to control its costs.

The power supply,for example, is the same (http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/part.asp?productNum=AXY1157) in the 4280,5080,1150 and the 950.I knew that well before you posted your links VFR. And your point is?

Actually, if you ask any pioneer representative, the glass on ALL of the Elite/PDP cousins are shared. That means the Pro-110FD and the PDP-5010 have the same glass, the Pro-150FD and the PDP-6010 have the same galss etc. The only difference in the actual Plasma Panel is the Elite is treated with an extra layer of anti-glare film. Don't get me wrong, the Elite is a far superior television (I actually own a Pro-940) I just wanted you to have your facts right.My facts are correct. You need to check yours. The filter on the 1080p Elites is totally different than the 1080p non-Elites. That would classify that as different glass (per the business). Please visit the Pioneer parts website to verify my statement (the part number for the 1080p PDP panel is different than the 1080p non-Elite PDP panel).

Why would I ask here instead of calling Pioneer? Here at AVS I don't have to pick up a phone and talk to someone who I have no prior knowledge of as opposed to here where I rely on family. Here I have a hard copy to refer back to if need be. When I asked a Pioneer rep at a local Magnolia to explain the differences between the 5080 and the 5010 he never mentioned the filter. You did, so why not ask a question where you trust the answer? As far as you jumping on VFR and asking his point because he made a statement you were already aware of. Just because you were aware of it doesn't mean everybody else was aware of it.

Andy, based on reading your posts here and the responses of people trying to be helpful all I can say is this: What's the chip on your shoulder for and what is your real motivation here? Doesn't seem like you'll be satisfied with any answer you're given.

Why would I ask here instead of calling Pioneer? Here at AVS I don't have to pick up a phone and talk to someone who I have no prior knowledge of as opposed to here where I rely on family. Here I have a hard copy to refer back to if need be. When I asked a Pioneer rep at a local Magnolia to explain the differences between the 5080 and the 5010 he never mentioned the filter. You did, so why not ask a question where you trust the answer? As far as you jumping on VFR and asking his point because he made a statement you were already aware of. Just because you were aware of it doesn't mean everybody else was aware of it.

I knew that well before you posted your links VFR. And your point is?


That your statement...

The tolerance levels for all parts of an Elite panels are more stringent when compared to the non-Elites (roughly 8% out of spec is OK'ed for Elites while non-Elites are around 15%). That translates into better QC.

....is incorrect.

WOW! Good points from both sides here.
I am really glad I read through this thread... For the longest time I have been pondering whether to chose the Elite or non-Elite. Now that I have read both sides of this arguement and have been collecting information for the last month, I am happy to conclude that my Pioneer will be an ELITE.

Paul

That your statement...



....is incorrect.Prove me wrong VFR. If a part is out of spec less that 8% percent, it goes on an Elite. Otherwise it is bound for a non-Elite (as long as it is within 15% of spec).

Sharing part numbers is irrelevant.....especially when it comes to a power supply. Each part is checked to see if it within spec.

Now here is an additional tidbit for you,

If a part in an customer's Elite needs to be replace and that specific part is shared with the non-Elite, the new part may or may not be within the factory's QC spec (aka 8% or less) as no one checks the tolerances for replacement parts.

Why would I ask here instead of calling Pioneer? Here at AVS I don't have to pick up a phone and talk to someone who I have no prior knowledge of as opposed to here where I rely on family. Here I have a hard copy to refer back to if need be. When I asked a Pioneer rep at a local Magnolia to explain the differences between the 5080 and the 5010 he never mentioned the filter. You did, so why not ask a question where you trust the answer? As far as you jumping on VFR and asking his point because he made a statement you were already aware of. Just because you were aware of it doesn't mean everybody else was aware of it.So in other words you don't want to waste your time calling them with your questions and would rather post on AVS and let AVS members do the work for you, correct?

VFR uses some if his time to go on manufacturer's websites to look at part numbers. In other words he actually takes the time to find info for himself....regardless if it is right or wrong.

I wish more people wold at least take the time to do like he does ;)

Not to get in the middle of any thing :D but by that reasoning why is the site here at all? We should all go get our own answers and stop bothering other people with our problems/questions.

Not to get in the middle of any thing :D but by that reasoning why is the site here at all? We should all go get our own answers and stop bothering other people with our problems/questions.No that's isn't what I meant. Some of us think that they don't have to do their own homework.

No that's isn't what I meant. Some of us think that they don't have to do their own homework.

That's cool, I just thought that coming on this site was doing home work.

I know I have gotten some very good help/advise here and would like to think that I have helped some too. I know you have given good advise even if I don't always agree with what you are saying ;)

Prove me wrong VFR. If a part is out of spec less that 8% percent, it goes on an Elite. Otherwise it is bound for a non-Elite (as long as it is within 15% of spec).

Sharing part numbers is irrelevant.....especially when it comes to a power supply. Each part is checked to see if it within spec.

Dude...its your theory and given Pioneers own website is in line with my position ,its up to you to prove it.

Short of the aerospace and medical industries, no manufacturer checks all parts are within tolerances.It just does not happen.They do random checks.Pioneer is going to produce just shy of 800,000 panels this year.Multiply that by the hundreds of parts and assemblies that make up these panels and you can see why your position that they are bench testing tolerances on everything is ridiculous.

Now here is an additional tidbit for you,

If a part in an customer's Elite needs to be replace and that specific part is shared with the non-Elite, the new part may or may not be within the factory's QC spec (aka 8% or less) as no one checks the tolerances for replacement parts.

So your position is they incur the massive expensive of bench testing all parts for the original manufacture of the Elite panels but when it comes to the spare parts its whatever you get, you get?That makes sense.:rolleyes::)

The most recent sales figures that I have seen for Pioneer Plasmas, which did not have the current Kuro sales figures included, showed that Pioneer had approximately four percent of the market share. That means that they are not in the mass market game like companies such as Panasonic and Samsung. They have a very limited production capacity on a big ticket product line. It is not labeled Elite by acccident.

Here is a link that spells out their marketing approach and mission statement. It is what it is. They have decided that is the way the want to go, and have no intention of going the mass production, and massive commodity distribution route.

http://www.news.com/Pioneer-unveils-revamped-plasma-technology/2100-1041_3-6182482.html



Pioneer unveils revamped plasma technology
At a New York press conference, company focuses on the ability to create the deepest levels of black on a plasma TV screen.
Photos: Pioneer gets 'Elite'
By Caroline McCarthy
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
Published: May 9, 2007, 10:40 AM PDT
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NEW YORK--For Pioneer, black is the new black.

At a press event Wednesday morning, the electronics company unveiled its new line of high-definition plasma televisions, a selection of new home theater equipment, and a new technology and business strategy that it calls "Project Kuro," after the Japanese word for "black." And black was the focus of the event: after all, Pioneer claims that its new eighth-generation flat panels provide the most advanced levels of deep black of any television on the market.
Photos: Pioneer gets 'Elite'

According to presentations by Pioneer executives, the company has completely restructured both its technology and business strategies as part of Project Kuro. New color filter technology and cell structure have allowed for "significantly deeper black levels," said Russ Johnston, senior vice president of marketing for Pioneer USA, who called it "game-changing technology." This revamped plasma technology will be available in all Pioneer flat-panels.

Some analysts have expressed doubt about plasma television technology's success in the HDTV market, but Pioneer's executives painted a sunny outlook on the grounds that the color quality is better overall. "Plasma is self-emissive in red, in green and in blue," Johnston explained. "It can also reproduce the entire color spectrum from white to black."

At the same time, as many electronics manufacturers are trying to make their HDTVs become more common and more affordable, Pioneer wants to emphasize the opposite. Tom Haga, CEO of Pioneer North America, said that the company is aiming to "break away from the commoditization models that so many companies are chasing," and instead demand the highest quality possible in audio and video.

Pioneer executives said at the press conference that Project Kuro reinforces the company's dedication to a customer base of "discerning entertainment junkies"--consumers who all share a passion for high-quality audio and video and are willing to shell out the cash for it. "We want consumers to walk into the store and see that our panels are the best," said Ken Shioda, general manager of display products for Pioneer. "These consumers expect a very unique experience when they make any purchase."
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In June, Pioneer will be shipping the first models of its eighth-generation plasma TV line, which had been previewed at the Consumer Electronics Show in January: the 42-inch Pioneer PDP-4280HD, which will sell for $2,700; and the Pioneer PDP-5080HD for $3,500. A month later, the first models from the Pioneer Elite line will be available: the 42-inch Pioneer Elite PRO-950HD for $3,200; and the 50-inch Pioneer Elite PRO-1150HD for $4,500.

More flat-panel plasma TVs, these with higher-end 1080p resolution, will ship this fall. The 50- and 60-inch models range in price from $5,000 to $7,500.

Additionally, Pioneer's new Elite line includes new home theater equipment offerings: a Blu-ray Disc player for $1,000, a Blu-ray Disc computer drive for $299, and four new audio-video receivers that retail between $650 and $1,600.

Dude...its your theory and given Pioneers own website is in line with my position ,its up to you to prove it.

Short of the aerospace and medical industries, no manufacturer checks all parts are within tolerances.It just does not happen.They do random checks.Pioneer is going to produce just shy of 800,000 panels this year.Multiply that by the hundreds of parts and assemblies that make up these panels and you can see why your position that they are bench testing tolerances on everything is ridiculous.



Just a thought, but would the parts would be "binned" (separated into parts meeting different tolerances) by the supplier of those parts? So the effort would be on the suppliers, no? (at least in some cases for some IC's.) In the electronics industries I am most familiar with it often works this way. I have no take on what actually occurs in this case.

Just a thought, but would the parts would be "binned" (separated into parts meeting different tolerances) by the supplier of those parts? So the effort would be on the suppliers, no? (at least in some cases for some IC's.) In the electronics industries I am most familiar with it often works this way. I have no take on what actually occurs in this case.

Very common in all industries but they will normally have different part# for the "same" part. Cross referencing part #s do not always yield the "same" part in terms of quality.

Andy, based on reading your posts here and the responses of people trying to be helpful all I can say is this: What's the chip on your shoulder for and what is your real motivation here? Doesn't seem like you'll be satisfied with any answer you're given.
I see no chip on Andy's shoulder just the opposite. I see it as D-nice as having the chip. Andy went so far as to even preface a post by saying "Not bitching just seriously curious". Vfr as well has made informed post and it seems to me IMO that D-nice doesnt like to be challenged on his "knowledge" of the Pio Elites or the inner workings of Pioneers QC. IMO Andy would like some facts to back up statements that were made, maybe I am wrong wouldnt be the first time.

I see no chip on Andy's shoulder just the opposite. I see it as D-nice as having the chip. Andy went so far as to even preface a post by saying "Not bitching just seriously curious". Vfr as well has made informed post and it seems to me IMO that D-nice doesnt like to be challenged on his "knowledge" of the Pio Elites or the inner workings of Pioneers QC. IMO Andy would like some facts to back up statements that were made, maybe I am wrong wouldnt be the first time.Incorrect.

Ask Andy what is the point of this thread. I've given him some answers to his questions. However, I highly recommend that he calls Pioneer and get their take. He doesn't want to call Pioneer.

Now, if I didn't come to this thread to answer some of his concerns, what would have been the end result of his quest? Yes I have knowledge of Pioneer's inner workings....but I don't know everything.

Why would I ask here instead of calling Pioneer? Here at AVS I don't have to pick up a phone and talk to someone who I have no prior knowledge of as opposed to here where I rely on family. Here I have a hard copy to refer back to if need be. When I asked a Pioneer rep at a local Magnolia to explain the differences between the 5080 and the 5010 he never mentioned the filter. You did, so why not ask a question where you trust the answer? As far as you jumping on VFR and asking his point because he made a statement you were already aware of. Just because you were aware of it doesn't mean everybody else was aware of it.So in other words you don't want to waste your time calling them with your questions and would rather post on AVS and let AVS members do the work for you, correct?

VFR uses some if his time to go on manufacturer's websites to look at part numbers. In other words he actually takes the time to find info for himself....regardless if it is right or wrong.

I wish more people wold at least take the time to do like he does ;)Not to be obtuse (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dim-witted) or anything, but for those who do not always follow your leader (http://blog.blinkenarea.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/follow.your.leader.jpg)… try using Pioneer's default Pure picture setting w/sharpness set to 0 for awhile, you might like it.

ditch that break in DVD too

Why don't you just go with the regular Pioneer? They can bought on line for a better price. It's my understanding that they're the exact same TV only without the shiny piano black case.

This is the first response to the OP, which asked why Pioneer limits what places can sell Elites. Please, after over 1200 posts I can assure you that I do plenty of homework. I even gave you kudos for your knowledge and said that I asked you as opposed to calling Pioneer because I trusted your hopefully only slightly biased opinion instead of calling Pioneer and asking someone who's livelihood depends on the success of Pioneer.
This is as simple as I can boil it down to. Pioneer says "pay me more for the Elite because the Elite is better" Toyota says "pay me more for the Lexus because the Lexus is better". I say "why" to Toyota ( they advertise the reasons so I don't really have to ask), they say because the Lexus has more insulation, better leather, standard moon roof, more horsepower, thicker paint, bigger tires, fancier wheels, better customer service, higher end sound system. I say "why" to Pioneer, they say because it has Pure Vision. I did my home work and logged onto their web site which said "it has Pure Vision".
As I said earlier, I'm just seriously curious. I want to buy a plasma. I like Pioneer. Maybe I was raised in an older era but I just don't want to pay an extra $1,000 if it's only got $200 in better parts and a fancy name.

This is the first response to the OP, which asked why Pioneer limits what places can sell Elites. Please, after over 1200 posts I can assure you that I do plenty of homework. I even gave you kudos for your knowledge and said that I asked you as opposed to calling Pioneer because I trusted your hopefully only slightly biased opinion instead of calling Pioneer and asking someone who's livelihood depends on the success of Pioneer.
This is as simple as I can boil it down to. Pioneer says "pay me more for the Elite because the Elite is better" Toyota says "pay me more for the Lexus because the Lexus is better". I say "why" to Toyota ( they advertise the reasons so I don't really have to ask), they say because the Lexus has more insulation, better leather, standard moon roof, more horsepower, thicker paint, bigger tires, fancier wheels, better customer service, higher end sound system. I say "why" to Pioneer, they say because it has Pure Vision. I did my home work and logged onto their web site which said "it has Pure Vision".
As I said earlier, I'm just seriously curious. I want to buy a plasma. I like Pioneer. Maybe I was raised in an older era but I just don't want to pay an extra $1,000 if it's only got $200 in better parts and a fancy name.The PRO-150FD is a better TV than a PDP-6010FD just like an Acura RL is better than a Honda V6 Accord, but the difference in price for a 150FD is ~$1000 versus ~$20,000 for the sedan, which is why many of us can afford to buy a 60" Kuro 'Elite' PDP but do not own an Acura RL (http://www.acura.com/bap/bap_step5_print.asp?MODEL=KB1668KXW&MODELNAME=RL CMBSPAX&DIVISION=B&SERIESNAME=RL&SERIESID=16&YEAR=2008&FEATURE=&MODULE=RL&SERIES=16&media=&ECOLOR=B-92P&ICOLOR=EN&SELECTED=RL00008016,RL00008022,RL00008007,RL00008015,RL00008 021,RL00008064,RL00008017,RL00008026,RL00008020,RL00008010,R L00008019,RL00008013,RL00008004,RL00008001,RL00008025,RL0000 8008&INCLUDED=&REQUIRED=RL00008012).

Well to be fair the V6 Accord is comparable to the TL not the RL and the price difference is about 8K.

The buyer has to decided if it worth the extra to them, they are both nice cars just like they are both nice TVs.

Pioneer has always had Elite models that sold for more than non- Elite. It started before Plasma.
Mitsubishi doe the same with their Diamond sets.
They're for those who want the very best they offer.
The non Elite are for those who want good enough and don't want to spend the $$$.
If you're the type who wants only the best Elite is for you.
If good enough is ok (I'll save some money this way)
then the non-Elite is for you.

I have been communicating with Pioneer and they said that the processing and picture quality of the 5010 and 110 are the same. They told me the difference is clear to someone who notices every difference - that's not me. I wish I could see the 5010 - it is supposed to be better than the FHD1 from last year.

Really the Elite models give you more options and a longer warranty the PQ should be the same. If you are someone that takes the TV it out of the box and more or less use the default settings then the Pro is not for you. If you like to tweak the heck out of your TV or are looking for bragging rights with your friends then the Pro is for you.

If you base "the best" on price alone then Pio is not even close, even the Pro ones.

I have been in contact with Pioneer and they told me that the picture quality and processing are the same. There are more controls I could work to improve the picture (color), an illuminated remote, better anti-glare, the ICP tuning (by an expert), etc. however, they told me that the differences are only important to a videophile. The 5010 is better than the elite FHD1 so I think the 5010 is fine for people like me who don't notice every little difference. A thous more for the elite seems not worth it. Am I getting misinformation from Pioneer.

I have been in contact with Pioneer and they told me that the picture quality and processing are the same. There are more controls I could work to improve the picture (color), an illuminated remote, better anti-glare, the ICP tuning (by an expert), etc. however, they told me that the differences are only important to a videophile. The 5010 is better than the elite FHD1 so I think the 5010 is fine for people like me who don't notice every little difference. A thous more for the elite seems not worth it. Am I getting misinformation from Pioneer.No misinformation there. I saw a FHD1 and an 1150HD side-by-side and the black levels on the 1150HD were clearly superior. I'm assuming the same also holds true for the Pioneer FD PDPs.

Pioneer has best plasma now with Kuro and best features in Elite.They stand ready to dominate the market so why would they be so picky on where elites can be sold.I realize forum people know where to get elites online but a regular customer must go to Magnolia,Tweeter and maybe a few specialty stores to find an elite.Isnt this a poor business plan?Online fears are about over if you shop with intelligence.Lets face it all plasma needs to be shipped either to a store or your house and companies do know how to get it to you without damage.Not being able to buy an elite online with a warranty is ridiculous.Perhaps the new connection with Sharp will change this practice?

Reality Check.
This is what the OT is supposed to be about. There are plenty of other threads already available to discuss the Kuro models differences.

Reality Check.
This is what the OT is supposed to be about. There are plenty of other threads already available to discuss the Kuro models differences.
Reality CHECK
The OP is NOT discussing the model differences of the Kuro's. He is discussing why Pioneer only lets certain dealers sell the Elite line and why he cant order one through an ID.

Reality CHECK
The OP is NOT discussing the model differences of the Kuro's. He is discussing why Pioneer only lets certain dealers sell the Elite line and why he cant order one through an ID.

Correct. That is why I quoted his original post. If you look at a number of posts prior to mine, they had gone completely off topic and were comparing the functions and values of different Kuro models. I merely pointed out that the thread was not intended for those types of discussions, and that their were plenty of other threads set up for those topics.

Well as long as you guys are staying on topic :rolleyes:

. I say "why" to Pioneer, they say because it has Pure Vision. I did my home work and logged onto their web site which said "it has Pure Vision".
As I said earlier, I'm just seriously curious. I want to buy a plasma. I like Pioneer. Maybe I was raised in an older era but I just don't want to pay an extra $1,000 if it's only got $200 in better parts and a fancy name.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11222865#post11222865

Thanks Tony. I wish I had seen that information before. It does not mention the tighter QC on the production line though. Would you recommend the Elite over the non Elite if no ISF calibration was planned?

Thanks Tony. I wish I had seen that information before. It does not mention the tighter QC on the production line though. Would you recommend the Elite over the non Elite if no ISF calibration was planned?

I haven't seen a 6010 side by side a 150 but when I have seen each one on display at the same place, they both have very simiar PQ to me ( I would be happy with either one of them ).

But I have never seen a 6010 in a darken environment playing a good quality BluRay Disk like Corpse Bride, POTC : Dead's Man's Chest, Fifth Element, etc. I have seen this on my 150FD though and I have never seen a better PQ on any display in my life.

If I were not having mine calibrated, I would have pulled the trigger on the 6010 the first time I saw it at the Pioneer Store - it was better than anything else I had seen and it was out ( would not have had to wait any longer ). But I am getting it calibrated and along with PURE mode were the two items that held me back ( the extra year warranty, color filter, networking, etc. were a nice bonus but would not have stoppped me from purchasing the 6010 ).

Good luck - I am sure you will be happy with any KURO you decide to buy :-)

Prove me wrong VFR. If a part is out of spec less that 8% percent, it goes on an Elite. Otherwise it is bound for a non-Elite (as long as it is within 15% of spec).


So that makes it a posibility that a non-elite would have many parts with less than 8% tolerance ( since the higher spec parts are likely to be used on Elites )?

At some point, incremental performance isn't justifiable for most folks.

If you want to go really fast by almost anyone's standards you can get yourself a 997 Turbo for, call it, $130 grand. This will zip you right along to a 0-60 time just under 4 seconds and a top speed just under 200 mph.

Now, if you want to go incrementally faster, you can buy a 997 GT2 for just under $200 grand. The GT2 will get you to 60 in a couple tenths of a second quicker than the Turbo and will get you over 200 mph by a handful of mph.

There isn't *that* much difference between the Turbo and the GT2. Is it worth an additional $65,000 to get to 60 a couple tenths of a second quicker? Or 10-12 mph of additonal top-end? How about the subjectively better cosmetics? Most people won't actually take advantage of the better performance. But some actually will (hopefully on a track). Many buyers of the GT2 will get it because they can. The same can be said of Elite buyers and this doesn't necessarily make them a snob.

Since more folks can contemplate the purchase of a PDP than a Porsche it's somehow a different conversation? I don't particularly think so, by the way. But as far as PDP's go, Pioneer has clearly articulated their belief that they are a luxury brand selling to enthusiasts. Sounds remarkably similar to Porsche's position in its market.

So, only you can decide if the incremental performance gain is worth the additional money. This is true if you're buying Porsche cars, or Pioneer dispalys, or anything else, for that matter. If you've never had a display ISF'd and if you don't intend to ISF then maybe not.

As to the question of why does Pioneer only sell Elites at dealers? My feeling is who gives a rip? It's a question that could only be answered by some Pioneer marketing rep. All else is opinion subject to pointless bickering.

Finally, it's reasonable to use the web for base-line research. If you don't follow up and do some work on your own to verify the *opinions* (regardless of how tenaciously argued) on a forum, then... well... I guess, good luck to you...

I love car analogies but remember that Pioneer says the TVs should accelerate the same, handle the same and have the same top end. The Elite does have cup holders, remote trunk release, intermediate wipers and a longer service contract.

Simply because it's a very expensive set, and while good, won't make it past that price/performance barrier to most people. So sell it in an upscale setting where people are going to peel off the wads of cash anyway.

You have a serious problem when talking about something that costs more. Within this very thread you have people who don't think there is much difference between a Lexus and a Toyota or a Honda and an Acura. In my mind that is just craziness because the differences to me are obvious. Just comparing the datasheets between the Elite and regular Pio shows obvious differences.

sell it in an upscale setting where people are going to peel off the wads of cash anywayuntil they pick up their PRO-150FD :D

Immense difference in PQ between the regular Pioneer and the Pioneer Elite sets? I'm not quite sure where you heard that as I consistently hear that there is no real difference in the "out of the box" picture between, let's say, a 150FD and a 6010FD.

Well, go into a store that has the two displayed together with preferrably the same sorce, or ask a dealer to put up the comparison for you. While shopping for my plasma television, I had Starpower, Magnolia, a local shop named Ed Kellum, and Tweeter all demonstrate the differences. I looked at the standard picture settings as well as the calibrated settings (Tweeter and Magnolia both were ISF and the others were not) while showing standard DVD, Blu-Ray, and 720p/1080i broadcasts. My conclusion that both out-of-the-box and calibrated, the Elite fared better in all comparisons. Granted, out-of-the-box was the closest the two TV's were in picture, there was still a difference. The Elite proved to be a softer picture, with less noise then the PDP as well as the colors were more natural. I suggest you go see for yourself and make the decison yourself. Though the people on this forum are well versed and knowledgable in the industry PQ is ALWAYS an opinion. There are basic facts, but when the money hits the register, it is your TV and you need to like it.

No misinformation there. I saw a FHD1 and an 1150HD side-by-side and the black levels on the 1150HD were clearly superior. I'm assuming the same also holds true for the Pioneer FD PDPs.

The 1150 is a Kuro the FHD1 is not. This is a difference of about 20% darker black level. The new FD displays (as well as all Pioneer Plasmas this model line) are Kuro TVs.

"The Elite proved to be a softer picture, with less noise then the PDP as well as the colors were more natural."

I have never heard before that an Elite will have a "softer picture" and "less noise" than an equivalent non-Elite, and I'm unaware of how that could possibly be the case if both are properly setup. More accurate colors, maybe, but a softer picture and less noise? Not saying that's impossible, but I'd be very surprised if that were really the case. I'll bet dollars-to-donuts the panels you were comparing were set up differently.

I compared them myself in Magnolia and could see no difference. Part of the problem is that the settings are not exactly the same so it's hard to compare unless you can truly compare properly set-up and calibrated units. Indeed, I've had my own 6010 for a week and I'm still fine-tuning the settings. On HD content I see no "noise" unless you jack up the sharpness to unreasonable levels and turn off the noise filters.

For what it's worth, 90 percent of all this comes down to personal preference. Most reviewers (both professional and laypeople) laud the "movie" mode for natural-looking color and PQ, but I find that mode too soft and a bit flat-looking (at least when watching blu-ray content). I like a bit more color and "punch." Your mileage may vary.

Keep in mind that for some people, the PDP also acts as a sort of home furnishing/decoration. That means that it might be worthwhile to pay a little extra for something that looks incredible when it's off too. For example, I have a Pio Elite for my living room because it hangs over the fireplace and takes up space where otherwise some decoration would go. The TV spends most of its time in the OFF setting so it's important that the TV looks nice. But in my HT, I have a plain framed PDP because the look of the set when it's off isn't so important. The Pio Elites have an awesome looking frame as do the Sony XBRs and some of the other higher end sets.

I am new to the forum.It is time to upgrade my tv I am getting ready to get the Pioneer KURO ELITE 150FD .I just want to know what is the best place and lowest price to get it online ? No sales tax, No salesman, Low price is what I want! I have seen the Elite at Magnolia and that is the best picture I have seen and that is my choice. Thank You Brian Everett,Wa

"The Elite proved to be a softer picture, with less noise then the PDP as well as the colors were more natural."

I have never heard before that an Elite will have a "softer picture" and "less noise" than an equivalent non-Elite, and I'm unaware of how that could possibly be the case if both are properly setup. More accurate colors, maybe, but a softer picture and less noise? Not saying that's impossible, but I'd be very surprised if that were really the case. I'll bet dollars-to-donuts the panels you were comparing were set up differently.



The Elite and Non-Elite use the same processor with the exception of software capabilities that allow for additional adjustments on the Elite

I am new to the forum.It is time to upgrade my tv I am getting ready to get the Pioneer KURO ELITE 150FD .I just want to know what is the best place and lowest price to get it online ? No sales tax, No salesman, Low price is what I want! I have seen the Elite at Magnolia and that is the best picture I have seen and that is my choice. Thank You Brian Everett,Wa

Brian -- You should try one of the forum sponsors and see what they can do for you. Many people (including myself) have had great experiences dealing with Robert at value electronics. I have also seen a lot of great feedback for John at Axxis Audio. Both are forum sponsors and links can be found to each on this site or simply do a google search. Good luck!

The 1150 is a Kuro the FHD1 is not. This is a difference of about 20% darker black level. The new FD displays (as well as all Pioneer Plasmas this model line) are Kuro TVs.Where in my post did I say the FHD1 was a Kuro PDP? :confused:

Can you negotiate a comparable percentage discount on an Elite that you can on a regular Kuro? If not, there's much more than a $1K difference in street price...more like a $1.4K diff for a 50-inch.

I am new to the forum.It is time to upgrade my tv I am getting ready to get the Pioneer KURO ELITE 150FD .I just want to know what is the best place and lowest price to get it online ? No sales tax, No salesman, Low price is what I want! I have seen the Elite at Magnolia and that is the best picture I have seen and that is my choice. Thank You Brian Everett,Wa
If you want to be sure the warranty is honored, you have to use one of the approved Pioneer sellers (see their site). Elites can't be sold online - Pioneer wants them sold retail only. I heard you can buy them on the phone, but it hasn't been my experience.

I was able to negotiate a good price at 6th Ave. but with tax, it meant it would cost $1400 more than the 5010 so I bought the 5010 online.

Can you negotiate a comparable percentage discount on an Elite that you can on a regular Kuro? If not, there's much more than a $1K difference in street price...more like a $1.4K diff for a 50-inch.
yes, you can get a comparable discount that brings it back inline with msrp differences.

It's been a while since we 'haven't talked about price' here. Earlier posters in this thread had suggested they were seeing 25-30% off MSRP for Elites...(before delivery)....with the higher precentages seeming to go to the more expensive sets.

YMMV.

So if my calculations are correct, you pay about a 20% premium in street prices from good dealers. That's not too unreasonable, really.